=== Mez [~mez@82-36-228-130.cable.ubr01.perr.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Mez [~mez@82-36-228-130.cable.ubr01.perr.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Mez [~mez@82-36-228-130.cable.ubr01.perr.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Maus [~GM@cpe-24-208-180-140.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Maus [~GM@cpe-24-208-180-140.columbus.res.rr.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === SloMo_ [~slomo@p5487F444.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === FLeiXiuS [~fleixius@pcp0010497935pcs.essex01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === SloMo_ [~slomo@p5487F444.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.33.170] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === squinn [~squinn@68.205.198.0] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rob^ [~rob@dsl-202-52-55-156.qld.veridas.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mvo [~egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rob^ [~rob@dsl-202-52-55-156.qld.veridas.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rob^ [~rob@dsl-202-52-55-156.qld.veridas.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [~JaneW@george.kkhotels.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Simira [~Simira@79.80-202-211.nextgentel.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [~JaneW@george.kkhotels.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [~JaneW@george.kkhotels.co.uk] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === Mithrandir [~tfheen@vawad.err.no] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JanC [~janc@dD5764BEC.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === highvoltage [~jonathan@george.kkhotels.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Mithrandir [~tfheen@vawad.err.no] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:31] anyone on this channel coming to the edubuntu summit? === rob^ [~rob@rob-ubuntu.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rob^ [~rob@rob-ubuntu.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Mithrandir [~tfheen@vawad.err.no] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko_ [~doko___@dsl-084-059-065-082.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jdthood [~jdthood@x095.decis.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rob^ [~rob@rob-ubuntu.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === FLeiXiuS [~fleixius@pcp0010497935pcs.essex01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [~JaneW@217.205.109.249] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mez_ [~mez@82-36-228-130.cable.ubr01.perr.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [~JaneW@217.205.109.249] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === rob^ [~rob@rob-ubuntu.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === FLeiXiuS [~fleixius@pcp0010497935pcs.essex01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [~JaneW@217.205.109.249] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [~JaneW@217.205.109.249] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === Treenaks [~martijn@messy.foodfight.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jbailey [~jbailey@CPE00501836c657-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko [~doko___@dsl-084-059-065-082.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === terrex [~terrex@84-122-69-8.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mgalvin [~mgalvin@host-66-202-95-170.spr.choiceone.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jsgotangco [jerome60@dialup-222-126-75-172.infocom.ph] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === froud-work [~froud@ndn-165-143-84.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mdke [~matt@81-178-117-17.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === gtaylor [~gtaylor@130-127-67-44.lehotsky.clemson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [03:54] hello everyone [03:54] hi [03:55] we can start in a few minutes [03:55] 5 mins? [03:55] sure [03:55] im still testing out this hula account === hno73 [~hno73@henrik.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [03:56] aha [03:56] hno73: hey [03:56] hello all :) [03:57] ok let's just wait the others in a minute or so === mdke nods [03:58] hi all === froud waves [03:59] hi al [03:59] ll [03:59] dah all* [04:00] alright lets start === froud nods [04:00] ok this is the start of the regular meeting which will happen bi-weekly === ealden [~ealden@219.90.91.208] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:00] to start of, let's introduce ourselves so we'll know who's here [04:01] -> Jerome Gotangco [04:01] Sean Wheller === mgalvin Matt Galvin === hno73 <- Henrik Nilsen Omma [04:01] <-- matthew east === FLeiXiuS [~fleixius@pcp0010497935pcs.essex01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:02] great any lurkers? :) [04:03] hmm i guess none, we're well represented anyways [04:03] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda [04:03] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda [04:03] that's our agenda for today [04:03] btw, this page will be always upated for the next meetings [04:04] alright we go straight to agenda #1 [04:04] StyleGuide [04:04] hmmm jeffsch is still not here although i made sure i set the meeting with him in mind [04:04] Jeff is leading that, but is not present [04:04] Okay. [04:05] yeah, but he said this was a good time for him anyway... [04:05] come back to it when he arrives? [04:05] this is pretty much WIP at the moment and it needs love [04:05] no move on [04:05] the reason why we had to put this first in agenda is because we'll need consistency in the documents [04:05] yes people need to take a look and see if they can contribute to it === judax [~judax@ppp-69-148-18-161.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:06] I can take the docbook section, pending decisions on this meeting [04:06] jeffsch actually asked me to look into some sections to contribute like writing for an international audience [04:06] there is a lot of good material in the gnome guide for that [04:06] i would suggest copying it [04:06] yes, jeffsch actually suggested it [04:06] also look a KDE Guide :-) [04:06] he has a good number of referrences on the doc [04:07] yeah [04:07] but he hopes people who are currently contributing would also consider the contribution to the Style guide because we will all use it [04:07] so jsgotangco you will take the international audience aspect [04:08] froud: yup, i'll cover that [04:08] I will take the docbook aspect [04:08] what else is there [04:08] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide [04:09] greetings, sorry I am late [04:09] who are we following for Grammar and Spelling [04:09] i suggest people look into it and see what to contrribute [04:09] is it Chicago Manual of Style? [04:09] <- Sean Quinn, oops sorry. [04:09] froud: i believe so, that's what jeffsch preferred if i remember [04:10] OK [04:10] so then those sections should be easy to complete [04:10] if the Style Guide is released in a few months, we can all adhere to it to our docs for breezy [04:10] just reference the CMS [04:11] jsgotangco, + === jeffsch [~jeffsch@fatwire-201-201.uniserve.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:11] everyone should take the time to read it [04:11] completion of the Style Guide is a signicant accomplishment for the project itself [04:11] speaking of jeffsch [04:11] howdy [04:11] jeffsch: we were just discussing styleguide [04:11] speak of the devil and he will appear [04:11] yeah, welcome jeffsch..nice timing [04:12] jsgotangco: you want recap for jeffsch [04:12] jeffsch: we just started with styleguide and who will tackle on the parts [04:12] i will look into international audience [04:12] froud will tackle docbook stuff [04:13] for grammar stuff, will we be using chicago manual? [04:13] yes, i think so, jsgotangco [04:14] jeffsch? [04:14] do we all have access to chicago? [04:14] jeffsch: are you ok with CMS [04:14] I do [04:14] im a bit familiar with it [04:15] if we don't have access to it, then there's not much point specifying it [04:15] http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/ [04:15] froud, right. [04:15] http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.html [04:16] You can register to it and use it as a search [04:16] if you dont have a print copy [04:16] yes, but that is not the whole manual [04:16] hmmm do we really need everyone to know CMS [04:16] jeffsch: no but what is there is good [04:16] http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/search.html [04:17] jsgotangco: no not realy [04:17] its mostly for resolving dispute [04:17] oh, wow, they're about $35 for print [04:17] when ppl disagree CMS governs [04:17] ok so we let everyone work first in their own but we'll need a review period on docs for editorial stuff [04:18] yep [04:18] ok the question now is who would contribute in that particular section [04:18] (it is pretty crucial btw) [04:18] what spelling and grammar? [04:19] not me dude I stink in both these departments [04:19] anyone what to take a look at it at least? [04:19] I could contribute a little bit to the StyleGuide. [04:19] if not we'll put it still in the open [04:19] jsgotangco: jeffsch is the lingo expert, but he did all the work [04:19] But not in a lead. [04:20] jsgotangco: are we talking about who does reviews, or who does styleguide? [04:20] well i can't do that either, english isn't my primary language [04:20] jeffsch: styleguide [04:20] jeffsch: grammar and spelling [04:20] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide/GrammarPunctuationSpelling [04:20] people have signed up for "doc leads" on DocteamProjects.... [04:21] maybe they can take some responsibility [04:21] more, huh :-) [04:21] Right. [04:21] ok i will review the other style guides and see what we can do [04:22] one of the hazards of stepping forward, i guess :-) [04:22] i speak english as my primary lang, I am sure I can at least help with some of that [04:22] mgalvin: great [04:22] Again, I can contribute with StyleGuide [04:22] there you go :-) [04:22] i can help review docs, but probably not work on Styleguide [04:22] but I can't take StyleGuide in a lead position. [04:22] Just as a contributer. [04:22] sure UK english sounds better IMO [04:22] squinn, cotnributor is awesom [04:22] jsgotangco, ++++++ [04:23] ;) [04:23] ok great! so we have mgalvin, squinn, mdke woo hoo! [04:23] jsgotangco: UK en is rotten :-) [04:23] did i miss anyone? [04:23] jeffsch, i can't work on the styleguide [04:23] but I will do review of docs based on what the styleguide says [04:23] doh! i read too quickly... [04:23] cool [04:23] hah i noticed that [04:23] jeffsch: i'll do the i18n [04:24] alright, StyleGuide seems to be back on track... [04:24] anything more on StyleGuide [04:25] ? === mgalvin stepping away for a moment, will be back in a min [04:26] hmm not sure if i am lagged, but we'll move to #2 [04:26] "Revisit Doc Planning" [04:26] no lag jsgotangco [04:26] hmmm who added this [04:26] we're just quiet. [04:26] me [04:27] jeffsch, perhaps you can outline what you mean briefly [04:27] i think jeffsch is suggesting each doc have a spec of sorts [04:27] jeffsch, do you mean that every doc has a plan like the StyleGuide did? [04:27] yeah, the thing for the styleguide looks incredibly professional [04:27] we need to know who we are writing for, and the purpose of the doc [04:27] would help newcomers [04:27] mdke, I can agree with you there. Quite well done. [04:27] (its actually a good idea to have a spec of sorts) [04:27] Oh, yeah. [04:28] jeffsch, ++++ [04:28] jsgotangco: this goes back to https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/content-specification.xml [04:28] and https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/information-plan.xml [04:28] do we thing something brief like that of the Styleguide is a good idea? I give my +1 [04:28] hmmm i haven't been reading the teamstuff in svn... [04:28] froud: yes, the idea has been around for a while, but we have yet to do anything with it [04:29] It was an idea way back but got no support [04:29] snap [04:29] i'd give my vote on something like this [04:29] i think something brief like has been done on the Styleguide is a good idea, anything more detailed might be more work than we can handle though [04:29] it gives a good idea on what to do for newcomers [04:30] I will do it for the Kubuntu docs [04:30] froud: ALL? :) [04:30] If I must [04:30] can the persons who are taking charge of each doc take care of it? [04:30] i was thinking of what mdke just suggested [04:30] i think that could be an important part of what that job involves [04:30] and use the style used in the StyleGuide [04:30] well I will open a docspec dir in kde [04:30] along with maintaining the status and preview [04:30] and put the files there [04:31] then people can take ownership [04:31] ok can we announce this on the list then for the specs for docs [04:31] but so far nobody but jjesse and I have reported ownership [04:31] for Kubuntu that is [04:32] should the doc plan be only in svn? perhaps a wiki page for each doc [04:32] i don't think svn is necessary actually, just wiki page [04:32] jeffsch, + for wiki page for each doc [04:32] wiki too for me [04:32] I would like svn and html previews [04:33] at least for Kubuntu stuff [04:33] alright [04:33] so wiki it is, but froud will do stuff for Kubuntu [04:33] html preview of what? [04:34] of the document plan? [04:34] jsgotangco: all th ekubuntu stuff in https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/information-plan.xml links to http://lnix.net/~froud [04:34] I have offered ownersip in Kubuntu area [04:34] judax great on what? [04:35] quickguide and can take more if needed [04:35] ok hold on this is getting too big [04:35] the proposal is do to a simple spec for docs [04:35] cool can you update on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects [04:35] I see troy has some stuff too [04:36] jsgotangco: I think let the spec be what people want make it [04:36] i would tend to agree with froud [04:36] if its short, so be it [04:36] if its long, so be it [04:36] jsgotangco, I like froud's idea, +. [04:36] with the minimum being something similar to the Styleguide plan [04:36] +1 [04:37] right, so people who are doing docs, please consider making a spec and refer to the plan in StyleGuide [04:37] Okay. [04:37] we cool in that then [04:37] yeah [04:37] +1, except change "please consider making" to "please make" [04:38] let's increase our speed otherwise we won't get through the issues [04:38] Yes, please, + mdke [04:38] ok all people writing docs SHOULD MAKE one :) [04:38] ok for kubuntu you will find kde/docspecs [04:38] svn commit -m add docspec folder docspecs --non-interactive [04:38] +1 [04:38] ok any more stuff on this, please send to list [04:38] kk [04:39] we'll go to #3 - format to ship [04:39] this is gonna be tough === froud ducks [04:39] i don't think it will be too bad [04:39] has anyone read froud's treatise? :) [04:39] aye [04:39] okay, quick off-topic question..let's not make it a discussion..how can i get an html preview from my svn repo on my computer locally [~/ubuntu-doc/foo/bar] to the web? [04:40] jsgotangco, reading now [04:40] jsgotangco: there may be a simple solution [04:40] froud: please elaborate [04:40] (kubuntu is not an issue here btw) [04:40] let gnome do yelp xml === mgalvin back [04:41] and kde we will do html [04:41] thatleaves only one problem [04:41] yes? [04:41] providing that gnome ppl are prepared to lose publishing features [04:41] why would we do different things for gnome and kde? [04:41] then i see no problem [04:41] next problem would be the profiles [04:42] hang on [04:42] yelp wont like them [04:42] they wont [04:42] mdke: status quo [04:42] what do you mean by publishing features? [04:42] hold on [04:42] indexes etc? [04:42] yes [04:42] i think [04:42] don't move to profiling yet pls froud, we can deal with it next issue [04:42] hno73: yes [04:42] speaking of xref, shaunm over at gnome-doc-utils says next release is around the corner [04:42] k [04:42] let's focus [04:42] that will fix endterm [04:43] squinn: yes [04:43] ok give me a few minutes brb [04:43] ppl I proposed the html route to enable certain features and functions [04:43] and b'cause I thought we could take advantage of them [04:43] what are the disadvantages of html? [04:44] but if it makes life difficult then let's side step it [04:44] does yelp support it properly? [04:44] mdke: ye [04:44] so what are the disadvantages? [04:44] mdke: none [04:44] advantages would be that we can publish the same files in ubuntu-doc package AND online [04:45] mdke: yes [04:45] does any one see disadvantages? [04:45] and custom style as we wish [04:45] How do we link pages together (ie navigation) [04:45] yep, which is kind of nice [04:45] Yelp has some side bar system [04:45] yes [04:45] we need to code that in HTML [04:46] hno73, sidebar seems to be disable for HTML [04:46] hno73: you mean the toc [04:46] but i just checked about ubuntu hold on [04:46] not just toc, but generally how the user navigates around the docs [04:46] forward back and sideways [04:47] chunked html provides GRUB [04:47] next prev, home [04:47] Look at this: http://www.theopencd.org/files/beta/4/en/firefox_desc.html [04:48] Side menu and tabs that we might use [04:48] ok [04:48] back [04:48] next prev, home can be added too === jdthood [~jdthood@x095.decis.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:49] chunk output adds it by default [04:49] sounds good [04:49] do you have link to chunk? [04:49] http://lnix.net/~froud/kubuntu-install/C/index.html [04:50] ok, thanks [04:50] we can decide whether or not to suppress the meta [04:50] right [04:50] will HTML be more acceptable then for GNOME [04:50] CSS can do most of the work [04:51] right [04:51] and yeah, userguide comes out in chunk output [04:51] in hoary we did ship html versions, they were just not used [04:51] here's my question [04:51] do we still edit in xml? [04:52] yes [04:52] and then make qg/ug/html ? [04:52] squinn: of course, its our source [04:52] see kde/Makefile [04:52] froud, that html looks great [04:52] ah, that's true, jsgotangco [04:52] with pwd kde do make kall [04:52] needs a bit of ubuntu bling tho [04:53] mdke, a logo here and there [04:53] mdke: it uses kde help:/common/kde-default.css with the kio-ioslave [04:53] we can use the ubuntu css [04:53] squinn: a bit more [04:53] mdke: yes [04:53] henrik you can sort that? [04:53] mdke: on a kubuntu system it looks like kde docs do [04:53] cool [04:54] mdke: yes, let me look at the chunk build process [04:54] it seems we're sold on HTML> [04:54] if we decide on html output for gnome, then how does that change the packaging process? [04:54] good question [04:54] yep [04:55] what problems are we likely to have with -devel? [04:55] jeffsch: it does not [04:55] who packages the docs ATM? [04:55] hno73, its kind of improvised [04:55] enrico [04:56] (enrico's pretty much active btw, helping out in the sidelines) [04:56] yes, bless his cotton socks [04:56] mdke: let's try to catch mdz tomorrow and get clarity on that process [04:56] ppl this is a tradeoff decision [04:56] i'll be right back [04:56] including timing [04:56] hno73: enrico is whitelisted [04:57] hno73, who's mdz? [04:57] he packages and uploads [04:57] squinn: Matt Zimmerman [04:57] thought so [04:57] just wasn't sure [04:57] squinn: Ubuntu lead developer [04:57] hno73, is he in london? [04:58] I still want to ask him about the timeframe [04:58] mdke: yes for a few days [04:58] hno73: for Kubuntu, uniq is building debian/ [04:58] ok [04:58] we should have regular deb builds for kubuntu in a few days [04:58] we're taking a chunk here [04:59] ok so what's the consensus on this issue [04:59] i am attracted to the html idea [04:59] +1 html [04:59] +1 html [04:59] I'd like to see HTML for both GNOME and KDE [04:59] simpler that way [04:59] mdke: take advantage on the edubuntu summit and catch some people to discuss the issue [05:00] please note that this applies only to ununtu-docs not any gnome doc that happens to get developed in our svn [05:00] right [05:00] good point [05:00] those docs must conform to gnome [05:00] jsgotangco, ok i'll try [05:00] because the move upstream [05:00] what gnome docs are worked on in our svn? [05:00] is a long road ahead? *grin* [05:01] for example in hoary I did ubuntu-update manager and ubuntu-device database [05:01] OK so what's the consensus.... [05:01] there may be gnome apps developed at ubuntu but not upstream yet, we can do those docs in svn [05:01] +1 html [05:02] HTML with some added bling [05:02] cool [05:02] +1 html, plus look at getting a sidebar [05:02] told you it would be easy [05:02] great... [05:02] we can put the decision to the TB soon [05:02] right so we're solid on HTML [05:02] its cool to keep them in touch with what we're doing [05:03] mdke: +1 [05:03] right that's why we're going to have regular meetings from now on [05:03] alright where are we [05:03] #4 Document Profiling [05:03] shall I [05:03] surre [05:04] the idea is just a time saver for us [05:04] if we use html we will not have a problem [05:04] it basically means that we can develop two or more books in one XML-instance [05:04] yep, +1 froud [05:04] example Installation Guide [05:05] http://lnix.net/~froud/kubuntu-install/C/index.html [05:05] There is an Ubuntu version in the same file [05:05] but you only see here the Kubuntu version [05:05] What do you mean by profiling? [05:05] at present I have used the os attribute [05:06] Basically copy/paste, but change ubuntu to kubuntu or edubuntu? [05:06] squinn, you voted first and then asked what it is? [05:06] so when you make the html output you specified kde/gnome, etc? [05:06] hold let me get an src example [05:06] the concern I have with profiling is that it may increase the entry level for new users, who will have to learn how to do it [05:06] (as I said on the mailing list) [05:06] i see that it will save time but it will result in complex docs [05:07] and also, how to decide what gets profiled. what are the criteria? [05:07] hmmm [05:07] is it only os the gets profiled? [05:07] ok here is an example [05:07] [05:07] [05:07] [05:07] notice the [05:07]