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pittiI sent a mail to Scott, maybe he will read them in the next minutes11:51
pittiotherwise we just tell him we do the stuff in dpkg and he's supposed to implement it :)11:51
infinityI'll be here in 7 minutes.  Just finishing up some dinner.11:52
infinity(And I don't think assigning work to Scott that he objects to will fly, so hopefully he shows up to defend his position)11:53
elmowhere's the spec?11:53
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elmopitti: have you talked to him before about this meeting? I can ring him, if it's important11:53
pittielmo: not in depth, I intended to talk together here11:54
pittiyeah, a phone ping would rock11:54
elmomeh, we have too many wikis11:54
pittiwell, somebody suggested that existing changes files can be used for our purpose11:54
infinityEasily.  katie just needs to know what to do with an uploaded package_version.lang file that's mentioned in a .changes.11:55
elmono response on his landline, guess he's asleep/busy elsewhere11:56
infinityBut how we get those files (a debhelper hack is lame, since not all packages have to use debhelper) is where Scott comes in.11:56
infinityBut we can do this in two stages, only discussing the .changes/archive side for now, since elmo and Kinnison are the important parties for that.11:56
pittifine for me11:56
elmoinfinity: vast majority of packages use debhelper tho11:57
pittiI can discuss the hook place with Scott11:57
elmoinfinity: and the advantage is it's transparent; having to add per-rules files hack is ugly11:57
pittiso far debhelper is a reasonably good solution IMHO11:57
infinityelmo : Yes, but it's still the incorrect place to be stripping files out, technically.11:57
pittijust Joey Hess doesn't like it11:57
pittiand mdz asked me to remove it from debhelper11:57
elmoeither ubuntu carries a maintenance burden or it gets merged into debian as a ugly no-op11:57
infinityelmo : having it in dpkg-deb with a hook is more correct, in my mind.11:57
elmopitti: did he say why?11:57
elmoeither of them, in fact11:58
pittielmo: not really, because it's "ugly"11:58
Kamionjoeyh certainly did11:58
Kamionon debian-devel11:58
pittihe favors sbuild, I think11:58
pittibut hooking in sbuild is really hard, I guess11:58
elmothe whole "what if someone else calls something pkgtripstranlations" joke?11:58
Kamionbut it's somewhere in the enormous Ubuntu-is-evil thread of death11:58
elmoor something more substantial?11:58
pittiinfinity: would it be possible at all to define hooks in sbuild11:59
Kamionto be fair, it *is* a foul hack :-)11:59
pittiKinnison: .. or in the launchpad infrastructure?11:59
pittiWe need hooks after preparing debian/PACKAGE, but before actually building debs11:59
elmohooking in sbuild is REALLY WRONG11:59
elmoor launchpad or whatever11:59
elmobah phone, brb11:59
pittielmo: that's my feeling, too11:59
=== pitti hopes Scott is phoning :-)
pittiI asked Scott about a dpkg hook, but he felt it was wrong, too12:00
infinityThe higher level it is, the worse it is.12:00
infinitydebhelper is a compromise because we can't/won't put it in dpkg-deb, where it (IMO) belongs.12:00
pittiinfinity: the reverse conclusion would be that sbuild is the right place?12:01
infinityAnd as for the Debian case, one of my motivations for this is to make it elegant enough to use in Debian as well, should that time come.12:01
pittiinfinity: does sbuild have control about the build process at all?12:01
infinityIt calls dpkg-buildpackage.12:01
pittithat's what I expected12:01
infinityAnd that shouldn't change.12:02
KinnisonPutting it into sbuild feels wrong to me12:02
Kamiondid we ever discuss doing DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=striptranslations or similar?12:02
Kamionthat's sort of an established mechanism12:02
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pittiHi seb128_ 12:02
seb128_hey :)12:02
pittiKamion: sounds fine, too12:02
pittiKamion: however, it should be a bit more generic12:03
Kamionit would certainly be better than "if you happen to install this package, translations go bye-bye" which is the current situation12:03
Kamionpitti: DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS is generic, you just allocate a variable for each. I don't like putting commands in there12:03
pittiDEB_POSTBUILD=... and so on?12:03
Kamioner s/variable/name/12:03
pittihm, but D_B_O is only evaluated in debian/rules, not in dpkg, right?12:04
pittiso wouldn't that still require a debhelper hack?12:04
infinityD_B_O is wrong, wrong.12:04
Kamiondpkg-dev could inspect it12:04
Kamioninfinity: why?12:04
infinitydpkg-dev doesn't currently touch D_B_O12:04
infinityBut, okay.  I'm all for making it do so.12:04
KamionI suppose it ought to be a different name12:05
infinityI thought we were looking at the "evaluate it in debian/rules" option.12:05
=== pitti still favors /etc/dpkg/predeb.d hooks
infinityAnd, yeah, since debian/rules currently "owns" that variable, people could be unsetting it or doing other insane things to it.12:05
infinitySo we can't count on it being sane.12:05
infinityBut however that happens, I still see dpkg-deb as the correct place to do the actual stripping.12:05
infinityWhether with a config file, a variable, or whatever.12:06
Kamionpitti: I still don't like the "install random package and build behaviour totally changes" thing - I'd rather have it be at least controlled by an environment variable so that you have to explicitly request it12:06
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infinityBut, since the man who will argue vehemently against that isn't here, perhaps we should be talking about the archive. :)12:06
Kamionand then put that into our buildd configuration12:06
pittiKamion: you currently have to explicitly enable pkgstriptranslations in a conffile (default off)12:06
infinityelmo : DO you have any qualms about dealing with in-band uploads of foo.lang files in katie?12:06
Kamionpitti: well, ok12:06
infinityKinnison : And you replicating said functionality in soyuz?12:06
pittiok, let's defer the hook discussion12:06
pittihttp://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/AuxiliaryBuildFiles still mentions a separete changes file12:07
pittiinfinity: so we can put "not for the archive" files into the normal .changes?12:07
Kinnisoninfinity: I'd rather see the translations come in the same .changes file12:07
infinitypitti : Of course we can.12:07
infinityKinnison : Yes, I meant in the same .changes.  THe same as by-hand stuff is currently done.12:07
=== Kinnison nods
elmoinfinity: come in .changes, and katie does what with them ?12:08
KinnisonThat's how I'd prefer to absorb it12:08
infinityKinnison : SO a binary .changes would have foo.deb and foo.lang, or whatever.12:08
elmoand what form are they coming in?12:08
pittiinfinity: is there already an interface for that?12:08
elmois this a replacement for the existing .debs?12:08
pittidpkg-*addfile or whatever?12:08
elmooir a replacement for the hacktastic system lamont put in place to get the tarballs to rosetta/pitti/whatever?12:08
Kinnisonelmo: the latter12:08
infinityelmo : These will get shunted off to somewhere where pitti's magical tools can use them to construct langpackgs.12:08
infinitylangpacks, too.12:08
pittielmo: yes, it's meant to be a replacement for lamont's hack12:08
elmoyeah, that's fine, I guess12:09
pittilamont didn't want to replicate the hack for e. g. stripped debug symbols12:09
pittielmo: what do you think about sth like aux.ubuntu.com12:09
pittiwith an archive-like structure12:09
pittiwhich contains the translation tarballs, debug symbols, etc.?12:09
elmopitti: I don't particularly want to publish anything except the debug symbols?12:09
elmoand that pretty much needs a proper archive, if they're in .deb format?12:10
pittiit would be more regular than people.u.c./~lamont12:10
pittielmo: I didn't think about the format of the debug symbols yet12:10
infinityYeah, translation tarballs shouldn't be public.12:10
pittielmo: if debug symbols should come in deb format, that's fine for me; I don't want to install them, though12:10
infinityBut they need a nice home that's not the current hack.12:10
Kinnisonw/w, sorry12:10
elmosure, the nice home can be langtarballs.internal tho12:10
pittielmo: ok, debug.ubuntu.com then?12:10
infinityelmo : Indeed.12:11
seb128pitti: we really want to use debs for this?12:11
elmopitti: yes, that's fine, but I'd prefer something less hand-wavy for the debug stuff12:11
pittiseb128: I don't *want* debs12:11
elmowhy not?12:11
pittiwell, they are not installed12:11
elmowhy not?12:11
seb128because the goal is to make automatic debug, not to say to people to install debug packages12:11
elmoyou know about /usr/lib/debug/ or whatever it's called right?12:11
seb128that doesn't work fine12:11
pittia crashed process downloads them from debug.u.c, and adds them to the current gdb session12:11
pittinot more12:11
seb128elmo: because half of the bug reply atm are "please install blabla-dbg an try to get the bug again"12:12
elmoseb128: why can't a post-morten analysis do apt-get install from debug.u.c ?12:12
pittielmo: no root12:12
pittielmo: this should be possible for any user12:12
elmorather than inventing yet another transport, download, mirror, etc. system?12:12
pittiwell, this should be lightweight12:12
elmohave you seen the size of -dbg packages? :P12:13
pittiif the download fails, we forget about the symbols12:13
pittiit's just a "nice to have them if we can get them"12:13
pittielmo: that's why we don't want -dbg debs :-)12:13
elmopitti: dude, we can't just have them on one server, that's not scalable12:13
pittilightweight in the protocol sense, I mean12:13
infinitypitti : detached symbols can be up to 10 times larger than the binary they're detached from.12:13
elmoesp. if some core gnome component breaks and a million users all start requesting 10Mb -dbg packages at once12:13
infinitypitti : It's almost never going to be "lightweight".12:13
Kamionpitti: you don't necessarily have to apt-get install debug .debs, you could unpack them and use LD_LIBRARY_PATH or whatever12:13
pittielmo: as I said, it's not a problem to store them in debs12:14
pittielmo: right, as Kamion says12:14
pittielmo: deb is a reasonable container and would be compatible for mirrors, etc.12:14
KamionI'm not convinced the <countrycode>.debug.ubuntu.com system is going to be particularly ideal either mind you12:14
Kamionbut the target audience is not going to be configuring this first, so ...12:15
elmokamion: that's not a good long term solution for archive.u.c either12:15
pittino, but I don't think that we really need to mirror debug.u.c12:15
elmoeventually we'll have to do something better12:15
elmopitti: dude, you're on crack12:15
elmowe can't plan a service and deliberately not consider how it's going to be mirrored12:15
pittino, that's not what I said/meant12:16
infinitypitti : Software segfaults a lot.  This service will get hammered, no matter how much we'd prefer to think it won't.12:16
pittiwith a normal deb-like archive structure it *can* be mirrored, right?12:16
elmonot when that service involves huge files that are very likely to be concurrently requested by a LOT of users12:16
pittielmo: so an archive-like debug.u.c with debs as containers and Packages.gz files would be the right thing?12:16
seb128I don't think that's a lot of users12:16
elmoseb128: so when the panel gets a segfault bug ... ?12:17
elmoyou know how many warty + hoary CDs we've shipped right? :-P12:18
seb128elmo: I read upstream bug, even on major crasher there is like 5 dups/day or something like that12:18
seb128most of people don't use bug-buddy or whatever12:18
elmoseb128: that's the people who report bugs12:18
seb128they just restart the app12:18
elmoseb128: I thought the plan for this was to be entirely automatic?12:18
seb128no need to get the symboles if you don't send a bug12:18
elmoat worst a user has to click ok type thing?12:18
seb128you can't do that without asking user ...12:18
pittielmo: well, the user still have to confirm that the report is sent, for privacy reasons12:18
seb128that's like bug-buddy12:19
infinityIt'd be like bug-buddy, or the Microsoft SEGV-hunter thingee.12:19
dokowe could ship a debug dvd together with the install cd :-/12:19
infinityFully automating something that could involve dumps of sensitive bits of userspace memory isn't nice.12:19
infinity(Or kernel memory, if it's a really GOOD bug!)12:19
pittiyeah, we have a dialog (also for entering additional comments)12:20
pitti<pitti> elmo: so an archive-like debug.u.c with debs as containers and Packages.gz files would be the right thing?12:21
elmook, look, here's my perspective: if this is significantly easier than reporting a bug in bugzilla -> a lot of people are going to potentially use it -> if a lot (and remember if we have millions of users, even 10% or 5% is A LOT for one apache instance), we have to plan for this to be scalable12:21
pitti^ fine for everybody?12:21
elmowe already have the deb + archive system, so if we don't want to use that, I'd like to see compelling reasons NOT to use it12:21
KinnisonHow do you decide what goes in which archive?12:22
Kinnisonis a build going to produce two .changes files?12:22
pittithat was my initial idea, but infinity has a better one obviously12:22
infinityI do? :)12:23
elmoKinnison: no12:23
elmoKinnison: plan is to (ab)use the section/type field12:23
elmoin the same way as d-i stuff does for 'byhand'12:23
infinityCan katie be taught to bounce certain types of files to a different archive? (much as by-hand stuff does whacky things)12:23
elmo(or 'raw-installer' these days)12:23
Kinnisonelmo: to put stuff into a different archive?!12:23
infinityThere.  What elmo said.12:23
elmoKinnison: sure?12:24
Kinnisonelmo: *groan*12:24
infinityNote that it's only a different archive froma publishing perspective.12:24
pittithat would also work for translation tarballs?12:24
infinityIn other ways (like version tracking), it's the same archive.12:24
Kinnisoninfinity: Joy of Joys12:24
elmopitti: translation tarballs, just go somewhere internal12:24
infinityie: You want foo.deb foo_debug.deb and foo_lang.tgz to match.12:24
Kinnisonthis is going to make launchpad *incredibly* more complex12:24
elmothey don't need an archive, and they're going on a public server like debug.u.c12:24
infinitypitti : Yeah, langpacks are easier than the debug stuff, really.  They can be thrown just about anywhere with very little thought.12:25
pittielmo: right, but still katie has to handle these files, so that works?12:25
infinitypitti : Bringing up the debug stuff made this conversation much nastier. :)12:25
elmopitti: yes12:25
KamionKinnison: don't you need separate published views of the one archive anyway, in order to track archive.u.c versus ports.u.c?12:25
=== Kinnison was expecting langpacks to simply be fed to rosetta
pittiKinnison: we need a staging area12:25
pittiKinnison: Rosetta imports once a day, and right now I need the tarballs, too12:25
KinnisonKamion: ports.u.c ?12:26
pittis/imports/will import/12:26
KamionKinnison: contains hppa, ia64, sparc binaries12:26
Kinnisonpitti: the plan was for rosetta to import when it becomes available12:26
KamionKinnison: only amd64/i386/powerpc/source are visible on archive.u.c12:26
pittiinfinity: well, we have to make it generic enough to also support debug symbols :-) that's why we have that discussion in the first place12:26
pittiKinnison: well, fine for me12:27
KinnisonKamion: Surely that's the job of something to split up the published stuff afterwards12:27
infinityKinnison : I see no reason why soyuz couldn't feed things directly to rosetta when the time comes.  But katie needs a facility to throw them somewhere else for now, so we need that too. :)12:27
Kinnisoninfinity: I see12:27
KamionKinnison: well, ok, it happens to be implemented by mirroring from a complete published archive on jackass at the moment12:27
infinitypitti : I don't necessarily see how the two relate much, except that in both cases we're uploading "random crap to the archive"... But we already do that (byhand tgzs, udebs, etc)12:28
Kamionudebs aren't really all that random nowadays; byhand tgzs, sure12:28
elmoKamion: only because I'm not meant to be doing any serious work on katie that'd be better done in launchpad ..12:28
elmothe current implementation is a hideous hack, and launchpad really shouldn't rely on it long term12:28
elmo(ports.u.c I mean)12:29
infinityYay for hideous hacks.12:29
infinityelmo : How much effort will it take to get langpacks accepted by katie in a .changes?... That seems a viable first step.12:30
infinityelmo : Then put them somewhere that isn't lamont's ~ ... :)12:30
pittiso since we don't want to handle translation tarballs and debug symbols uniformly, that also puts an end to the "dpkg-addauxfile" idea?12:30
infinitypitti : dpkg-distaddfile hardly needs to be reinvented.12:31
pittiinfinity: erm, I thougt that adds a file to a deb, not to a changes?12:31
Kamionpitti: nope12:31
elmoinfinity: not too much, couple of days to do it + test12:31
infinityelmo : Sweet.12:32
elmobut this is a really bad time for me12:32
infinityelmo : Isn't any time a bad time? :)12:32
elmoI'm moving sometime between now and debconf, and then there's well debconf12:32
elmoas in, moving 200 miles12:32
infinityelmo : Would it make it easier/harder if we had a specific file type for them (like .lang), or does it not matter one iota, so long as we abuse section stuff violently?12:32
elmommm. firealarm.  bbiab12:32
pittiinfinity: ah, cool. So pkgstrip{translations,debug} should just call dpkg-distaddfile for the tarball/debug deb and that will DTRT?12:33
infinityelmo : Timing's not terribly important.  We can talk about rolling this out post-Debconf.12:33
infinitypitti : That would do 'er, yeah.12:33
infinitypitti : Once elmo and you argue and decide on the right section/priority for these to make katie happy, the rest is simple.12:33
infinitypitti : And when we roll it out, I can remove one more hideous hack from the buildds.12:34
pittiinfinity: but translation tarballs don't have a debian control directory, and thus no section...12:34
infinitypitti : man dpkg-distaddfile.12:34
infinitypitti : It takes section and prio on the command line.12:34
pittiah, cool. sorry12:34
pittiyeah, that sounds indeed nice12:35
infinity(It really just writes to debian/files, which you could do by hand, but using higher level tools always feels less dirty...)12:35
infinityThen genchanges reads debian/files and debian/changelog to construct the .changes.12:36
infinityAnd now I'll stop giving dpkg-dev lessons.12:36
pittithanks anyway :-)12:36
seb128cool :)12:37
pittiok, so the plan would be12:37
pitti1) negotiate appropriate section/prio12:37
infinity(And, possibly, filetype, if that makes life easier for katie)12:37
pitti2) put the tarballs/debug debs into a separate place in katie12:37
pitti3) change pkgstriptranslations to use dpkg-distaddfile12:38
pitti4) remove the current sbuild hack12:38
infinityPretty much, yup.12:38
infinity5) Profit12:38
seb128pitti: so we have decided than debug use deb format?12:38
pitti6) conquer the world12:38
pitti7) beer12:38
pittiseb128: yes12:38
infinityI like 7.12:38
infinityI have some in the fridge.12:38
infinityShould we call this meeting more or less adjourned?12:38
seb128pitti: 7) is a sort of 5) :p12:38
pittifor my part, yes12:39
infinityI can follow up with elmo about the katie bits post-debconf.12:39
pittiI'll talk to scott about the hook thing12:39
infinityAnd when katie's ready, I'll ping pitti about changing pkgstrip12:39
seb128pitti: hum ... how do get these deb installed?12:39
pittiinfinity: can you ping me after 1) and 2) are done?12:39
pittihehe, thanks12:39
infinityAnd yeah, talking about moving the hack from debhelper to dpkg-dev can happy out of band from the other bits.12:39
pittiseb128: we extract them in /tmp12:39
=== infinity stares at his fingers.
seb128pitti: ugly, but why not12:40
mvoseb128: they are just the container 12:40
infinityseb128 : unpack in /tmp, use LD_PRELOAD, profit.12:40
seb128pitti: and that allow to apt-get them too which is bonus12:40
pittiseb128: I think using the mirror infrastructure is sane12:40
pittiinfinity: not LD_PRELOAD12:40
seb128yep, I agree12:40
pittiinfinity: just tell gdb to use the symbols in that file12:40
infinityErr, yeah.12:40
infinityMy LD_'s got confused.12:40
infinityGimme a break, I just typed "happy" when I meant "happen".12:40
infinityI'm clearly not all here. :)12:40
seb128pitti: dh_strip does that magic, no?12:40
mvowould "apt-get download" be handy for that?12:41
pittigdb) help add-symbol-file12:41
seb128mvo: what is "download" ?12:41
pittiseb128: for now, yes12:41
infinitymvo : I wanted to yell at you about something in apt.12:41
pittiseb128: maybe later in a dpkg hook, but for now dh_strip has to do12:41
mvoit would just download a deb into the current dir12:41
seb128pitti: k12:41
pittimvo: that would rock. definitively more sophisticated than calling urllib.urlretrieve...12:42
=== mvo runs from infinity
seb128mvo: would be nice12:42
infinitymvo : Why does apt insist on reading the default config file BEFORE taking commang line args (specifically '-o Dir=foo') into account?12:42
seb128mvo: I've already asked, but any plan to make synaptic handling deb files ... ? :)12:42
infinitymvo : THat just seems so hideously broken, since you then end up with two overlapping configs.12:42
pittimvo: well, there already is apt-get install --download-only12:42
mvoinfinity: historical reasons probably *cough*12:43
elmodon't block on me for the section/type12:43
pittimvo: but it doesn't do exactly what we want, but the code can be stolen from that I guess12:43
elmoI hate naming stuff, someone else decide and just tell me12:43
mvopitti: that will download into  /var/cache/apt 12:43
pittimvo: right, that's what I meant12:43
mvoinfinity: is there a bug open for it yet=12:43
infinityelmo : Will a different file type help, or will _lang.tgz be fine?12:43
infinitymvo : Not sure.  I just ran into it recently, and I'm a notoriously lazy bug reporter.12:43
pittielmo: would priority "aux" do? and then decide by section debug/translation?12:43
elmoinfinity: a decided scheme would be helpful for sanity checking purposes, but other than that I don't care12:44
elmopitti: it needs to be a separate section for each type of aux12:44
pittipriority: aux -> not for the archive12:45
pittisection: translation -> internal12:45
KinnisonCan I please ask someone who know what "odd" things ubuntu has archive-wise to compile a list of them all and email it to me?12:45
pittisection: debug -> debug.u.c.12:45
elmopitti: priority is irrelevant afa katie is concerned, you can have priority: bananas for all I care12:46
elmoyou don't want normal section names that might be confused with sections12:46
elmolike real sections12:47
pittielmo: just to avoid name overlaps (e. g. we already have an "optional"-priority translation)12:47
elmoso, I suggest someprefix-translation12:47
elmoso, I suggest someprefix-debug12:47
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elmoshrug, I suppose there's no compatability constraints, we could key of the priority if you want12:47
Kamionhadn't we sort of settled on raw-* for general stuff-that's-not-debs?12:48
Kamionwell, stuff-that's-not-debs-for-the-main-archive12:48
elmoyeah.  raw-translation might make sense12:48
elmoraw-debug seems a bit strange, but either works12:48
pittiand raw-debug?12:48
elmoas I said, I hate naming :/12:48
=== infinity hates long names.
pittiinfinity: so just make it filter on section raw-lang and raw-debug for now12:48
infinityI'm so old skool UNIX.12:48
pittiok, raw-dbg12:49
elmoy a t s12:49
elmoanyway, are we wrapped up here?  I need to go to Angel12:49
infinityWe're wrapped.12:49
pittiI think so, yes12:49
pittithanks for your time, guys12:49
pittinext meeting: pizza12:49
infinityBeer, yo.12:49
pittinot for lunch12:50
pittiI wrap that stuff up in the wiki12:50
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seb128thanks pitti, thanks everybody12:52
seb128lunch time :)12:52
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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Calendar -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || Logs -- http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs || Tue 5 July 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tue 12 July 22:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda || Thu 14 July 22:00 UTC Documentation Team -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda || This is NOT #ubuntu, or #ubuntu-devel
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