[12:36] <Burgundavia> there goes nothign
[01:19] <mdke> Burgundavia, what is breezy like right now?
[01:19] <mdke> its time I got a breezy partition
[01:19] <Burgundavia> there is an issue with esd
[01:19] <mdke> bah
[01:19] <Burgundavia> which makes gnome not load about half the time
[01:20] <mdke> oh
[01:20] <Burgundavia> my custom gdm theme is gone
[01:20] <Burgundavia> and cursors are borked
[01:20] <Burgundavia> but your mileage may vary
[01:20] <mdke> ok sounds good
[01:20] <Burgundavia> if you really want to be useful
[01:20] <Burgundavia> install a default hoary
[01:20] <Burgundavia> update it
[01:20] <Burgundavia> then upgrade
[01:20] <Burgundavia> and file any bugs your find
[01:21] <Burgundavia> there is a bug for that
[01:21] <Burgundavia> just a sec
[01:21] <mdke> what is a good way to resize my existing partitions you think?
[01:21] <Burgundavia> no idea
[01:21] <mdke> what is any way to do it?
[01:21] <Burgundavia> I would test the paritioners
[01:22] <Burgundavia> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12301
[01:22] <Burgundavia> that is the root but for all upgrade issues
[01:22] <mdke> the breezy partitioners?
[01:22] <mdke> or the hoary
[01:22] <Burgundavia> yes
[01:23] <Burgundavia> colony 3 will have the new live/install intergration work
[01:23] <mdke> colony 2 is only just out i thought
[01:23] <Burgundavia> just
[01:23] <Burgundavia> s/just/yes
[01:23] <mdke> ok
[01:23] <Burgundavia> hmm, that was an interesting typo
[01:24] <mdke> so either I do a breezy install or a hoary install
[01:24] <mdke> i think hoary maybe
[01:24] <mdke> how the hell do meta bugs work?
[01:24] <Burgundavia> the root bug depends on
[01:24] <Burgundavia> and the tree bugs block
[01:25] <mdke> in terms of filing the bug, what do I need to do to get it a dependency of that root bug?
[01:25] <Burgundavia> just mark it as a blocker of the root bug
[01:25] <Burgundavia> I think that should automagically do it
[01:25] <mdke> blocker?
[01:26] <mdke> dup?
[01:26] <Burgundavia> blocker
[01:27] <mdke> i can't see that in the interface
[01:27] <mdke> lemme check better
[01:27] <mdke> ok see it
[01:27] <Burgundavia> ok
[01:27] <mdke> cool
[01:28] <Burgundavia> the other thing I am going to test is to install almost everything in main and then upgrade
[01:28] <Burgundavia> and see what happens
[01:28] <mdke> heh
[01:28] <mdke> you are a machine!
[01:28] <Burgundavia> I have a spare machine
[01:34] <Burgundavia> wow, I actually just saw the pulsing thing for the first time
[10:31] <froud> African Greetings
[06:09] <Njal> lo all
[06:42] <froud> lo Njal 
[06:53] <Njal_> guys i think there might be an error in the gnome userguide, can someone confirm?
[07:15] <mdke> froud, how do you do that thing with the userguide?
[07:17] <froud> what thing?
[07:18] <mdke> that thing you just uploaded
[07:18] <mdke> where you align the paragraphs differently
[07:18] <froud> URL?
[07:18] <mdke> there is no URL
[07:18] <mdke> you just committed it now
[07:19] <froud> AH you mean indent the xml
[07:19] <mdke> "make valid and well formed"
[07:19] <mdke> yeah
[07:19] <froud> Hmmm pretty print
[07:19] <froud> I think tidy does that for you
[07:19] <mdke> well you must know how you did it no?
[07:20] <froud> you can use http://1060research-server-1.co.uk/docs/1.0.0/docxter/doc_ext_sys_ura_xmltidy.html
[07:21] <mdke> its ok, i liked it how it was before, but i was just curious as to how you did it
[07:21] <mdke> wb Njal 
[07:21] <Njal> thanks, sorry about the error thing was a false alarm
[07:22] <mdke> Njal, just to clarify, you are talking about the ubuntu user guide when you say "gnome user guide" right?
[07:22] <froud> Njal: use the validate.sh to validate your docs before patching
[07:22] <Njal> Yes the gnome userguide part of it
[07:22] <froud> Njal: the patch is applied and fixed
[07:23] <mdke> better not to apply the patch so that people can correct it and learn IMO
[07:23] <Njal> How do i use the validate script properly, coz sometimes it passes sometimes it fails, i don't know what to do if it fails
[07:23] <froud> nah just get on with it
[07:24] <froud> just do ./validate.sh path/to/foo.xml
[07:24] <mdke> Njal, just to clarify, the gnome user guide is a wholly different document and is not in our repository, so if you are working on userguide.xml, that is the ubuntu userguide
[07:24] <Njal> yes, but we have gnome and kde aspects of the ubuntu guide i was refering to our gnome guide
[07:24] <mdke> froud, if you keep fixing people's errors without telling them what is wrong, they won't learn
[07:25] <mdke> Njal, I see, ok, just so that you are clear on that
[07:25] <froud> mdke: rather fix and ensure they are making progress
[07:25] <froud> not patching makes it frustrating for people
[07:26] <froud> rather fix and patch
[07:26] <Njal> Yup, though it's the validate script i don't understand, I can run it, but if it fail's i don't know what to fix so i just send it to the list in the hopes someone will know how to fix it
[07:26] <mdke> froud, its best to give feedback on what is wrong
[07:26] <froud> OK fine
[07:26] <mdke> Njal, the validate script should tell you exactly where the problem is, it will refer to a specific line in the code
[07:26] <froud> Njal: if you know the patch has a problem you cant fix just say so in the message
[07:26] <mdke> so that should help you find the problem
[07:27] <Njal> oh, i will remember that
[07:27] <froud> Njal: but try to figure it out
[07:27] <mdke> its normally quite straightforward if you read it carefully
[07:27] <froud> Njal: in general have you looked at the Docbook Definitive Guide
[07:27] <mdke> most errors are typos
[07:27] <Njal> Yes, many times
[07:27] <mdke> so using a syntax highlighting editor will also help
[07:28] <Njal> Gedit
[07:28] <mdke> you've read the docbook guide?
[07:29] <mdke> then I would say you won't have problems diagnosing any errors in your work
[07:29] <Njal> Half the battle's understanding. i can re-read it all i want but until i understand it im hitting a brick wall
[07:30] <Njal> I can say though i am getting there
[07:30] <Njal> slowly
[07:30] <mdke> :)
[07:30] <froud> Njal: it's ok, work at it, if you have a problem I will help
[07:31] <mdke> brb
[07:32] <Njal> I will don't worry
[07:33] <Njal> i'm working on the command prompt bit right now, though how do you remove a directory?
[07:33] <froud> yes I see
[07:34] <froud> rm -rf dirname
[07:34] <Njal> Right thought as much
[07:34] <froud> read the man (man rm) :-)
[07:36] <Njal> ... i haddn't thought of that, sorry my file system had become corrupted so i just rebuilt it, that's what's been on my mind right now
[07:40] <mdke> perhaps maybe add a warning that that command can be very dangerous
[07:40] <mdke> new users such as those reading that guide might easily remove valuable thing
[07:42] <Njal> Im talking them through creating a directory, using it then removing it, not going onto system folders or sudo... yet
[07:43] <mdke> ok
[07:43] <mdke> i believe there is a separate section on sudo somewhere
[07:43] <Njal> probibly, but i aint found it yet
[07:45] <jeffsch> howdy folks
[07:45] <mdke> hey jeffsch 
[07:45] <froud> hey jeffsch 
[07:45] <jeffsch> i've just been reading the harnessing user guide thread
[07:46] <mdke> aha
[07:46] <froud> jeffsch: you may want to update the ubuntu XML_CATALOG for ubuntu stuff
[07:46] <Njal> lo
[07:46] <mdke> jeffsch, thoughts on that?
[07:46] <froud> jeffsch: it will have processing faster
[07:46] <jeffsch> mdke: yeah. I have an idea that might work (based on ideas in the thread)
[07:47] <mdke> shoot
[07:47] <jeffsch> but it's not entirely efficient, and will be more work in the medium term
[07:47] <mdke> i have been looking around in the gnome-docs cvs and in their irc channel
[07:47] <mdke> afaics the team is wholly dead
[07:47] <jeffsch> but also has beneficial side effects
[07:48] <jeffsch> here it is: copy the gnome user guide to svn
[07:48] <jeffsch> turn it into the ubuntu user guide
[07:48] <jeffsch> after breezy, separate  out the gnome stuff and push it upstream
[07:48] <mdke> i couldn't find a copy of the source for the userguide
[07:49] <mdke> i found a couple of the java desktop ones, but not the one that was published for 2.10
[07:49] <mdke> jeffsch, i think that would be a lot of work, although a nice idea
[07:50] <mdke> it would involve us updating the entire document
[07:50] <jeffsch> it will be a lot of work
[07:50] <jeffsch> yep. but it will be updated and valid for breezy
[07:50] <jeffsch> instead of not updated and not valid for breezy
[07:50] <mdke> jeffsch, essentially what you are suggesting is similar to us becoming the gnome/ubuntu documentation team
[07:50] <froud> jeffsch: vendor drop it and use it to build th eubuntu docs
[07:51] <mdke> froud, we can't do that because of it being so out of date
[07:51] <froud> jeffsch: if you need to make changes directly to it, then do them in your drop and push them to gnome
[07:51] <froud> mdke: yes you can
[07:51] <froud> you can make changes in svn
[07:51] <mdke> ok that is essentially the same suggestion that jeffsch made
[07:51] <jeffsch> froud: that's one option, but I'm talking about something different
[07:51] <froud> and push the changes upstream
[07:51] <jeffsch> mdke: not really
[07:51] <mdke> in terms of workload
[07:52] <jeffsch> i'm talking about converting gnome user guide into ubuntu user guide
[07:52] <froud> jeffsch: yes I read that
[07:52] <mdke> jeffsch, that would involve using the things that we have added right?
[07:52] <mdke> seems to me to be the same as doing a vendor drop and updating it there
[07:53] <froud> mdke: what jeffsch is saying is that Ubuntu user guide will be a set of patches on the Gnome user guide
[07:53] <jeffsch> i'm talking about replacing what we have in svn now with the gnome user guide from gnome cvs
[07:53] <jeffsch> froud: no
[07:53] <mdke> jeffsch, so you would envisage using the other stuff in the current userguide or not?
[07:53] <froud> jeffsch: I would not count on the GDP being so dead
[07:54] <jeffsch> mdke: the ubuntu specific stuff, yeah
[07:54] <mdke> just dumping all the stuff about ubuntu/installation/free software etc?
[07:54] <mdke> ok in terms of workloads i don't see the difference between the two suggestions
[07:55] <froud> minute
[07:55] <froud> if you do a v drop
[07:55] <froud> you wil have the abulity to push upstream
[07:55] <froud> and if you use gug
[07:55] <froud> as your base for uug
[07:56] <froud> you will be able to benefit from work here and upstream
[07:56] <froud> I would not discount the gdp coming alive again
[07:56] <froud> better to manage a copy in trunk that is uug
[07:56] <mdke> i agree it is a good idea froud 
[07:57] <mdke> my point however is that we don't have enough people working to adopt either solution
[07:57] <froud>  and merge changes that are gnome back into our v drop
[07:57] <froud> that way you can update the upstream
[07:57] <froud> you may also be able to bring some of the gnome authors to ubuntu
[07:57] <froud> :-)
[07:57] <mdke> yes, but there are no gnome authors working on the userguide
[07:57] <froud> there are
[07:58] <froud> you need to engage them individually
[07:58] <froud> and explain how it works
[07:58] <froud> the management of this need care
[07:58] <mdke> i have to engage the gnome authors and say "sorry, but your guide is about a year out of date"
[07:58] <mdke> ??
[07:58] <froud> or you will endup with ubuntu stuff going upstream
[07:59] <froud> well, they are approachable
[07:59] <mdke> some of the gdp website has not been updated since 2003 and refers to gnome 1
[07:59] <froud> not all will join you
[07:59] <froud> hehe
[07:59] <froud> yes
[07:59] <mdke> my point is that if there were people working on the userguide, it wouldn't be so out of date
[07:59] <mdke> i think what has happened is, the name has been changed to 2.10 and nothing else
[08:00] <froud> well I think that you will get les work that writing a user guide from scratch
[08:00] <froud> I am considering the same approach with kde
[08:00] <mdke> yeah, but you said kde have good docs
[08:00] <froud> they do
[08:01] <froud> but kubuntu in breezy will not use kcontrol
[08:01] <jeffsch> it might be difficult for us to update the gug for the gdp because default gnome desktop is different than default ubuntu desktop
[08:01] <froud> they will use kde-system settings
[08:01] <froud> jeffsch: yes this is why I say it will be hard to manage
[08:02] <froud> jeffsch: in the end you may decide it is just better to fork the code
[08:02] <jeffsch> which is where my idea comes from. start with gug, and transform it into ubuntuuser guide
[08:02] <froud> fork
[08:03] <froud> and then instruct the devs not to ship gug
[08:03] <jeffsch> froud: exactly. ship uug in place of gug
[08:03] <froud> makes sense dude
[08:03] <froud> jeffsch: why dont you branch
[08:03] <froud> create a folder branches/jjeffsch/
[08:04] <mdke> the problem is that the gnome userguide is the help for many applications, such as nautilus
[08:04] <mdke> if our docs are html, that will cause some problems no?
[08:04] <froud> jeffsch: svn list https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches
[08:05] <froud> mdke: yes it could, but doesn't nautilus have its own docs
[08:05] <mdke> they are part of the gnome user guide i think
[08:05] <jeffsch> froud: i want more discussion with the others before taking that step
[08:06] <froud> jeffsch: if you do it in a branch you will not need to
[08:06] <froud> jeffsch: you can experiment there
[08:06] <mdke> you can play around with the idea
[08:06] <froud> jeffsch: without impacting anyone
[08:06] <mdke> i still prefer copying gnome stuff into our userguide though
[08:06] <froud> jeffsch: later, if it works, we can merge it to trunk
[08:07] <froud> mdke: if jeffsch 's idea works you will be
[08:07] <froud> :-) the whole bollody thing
[08:07] <mdke> you know what I mean
[08:07] <froud> jeffsch: can you branch gnome/userguide/
[08:07] <froud> try it and see what happens
[08:08] <froud> you cant lose anything
[08:08] <jeffsch> froud: i'll look into it.
[08:08] <jeffsch> mdke: yeah, nautilus uses gug for its help
[08:08] <froud> let me know if you want help with the branching
[08:08] <froud> jeffsch: ouch
[08:09] <froud> so they will have to ship gug
[08:09] <mdke> yes
[08:09] <jeffsch> how does that work? does nautilus open yelp and point it to the xml file directly?
[08:09] <mdke> yes
[08:09] <froud> yes
[08:09] <froud> snap
[08:10] <mdke> if you think you have to time to update the gug, best thing IMO is to go with the froud vendor drop idea
[08:10] <mdke> otherwise, I would suggest we use bits of the gug as we see fit to enhance our ug
[08:10] <froud> well you guys let me know what you decide and I will help you get whatever you want into svn
[08:10] <froud> vendor or branch
[08:11] <jeffsch> the biggest good part of the gug is the style of writing.
[08:11] <froud> that is so you jeffsch 
[08:11] <froud> :-)
[08:11] <mdke> njal has a strange style of writing
[08:12] <jeffsch> the style in the uug right now is not good, and it will take lots of learning to get it better
[08:12] <jeffsch> the gug stuff can act as a good example of style
[08:12] <jeffsch> if it's there in people's faces, they will be able to better emulate it
[08:12] <mdke> sure
[08:12] <mdke> but copying in bits of the gug would help with that too
[08:12] <jeffsch> true
[08:13] <mdke>  <para>Again the command is simple, to remove the newfolder type cd ~ (just to get you outside of the directory before you delete it) now type rm -rf newfolder, how do you know it is gone? Simple, type your prefered command for viewing directorys, is newfolder there? It shouldnt be. Congratulations you have used the basic file management functions in the terminal.</para>
[08:13] <mdke> hmm
[08:13] <mdke> very stream of consciousness
[08:14] <mdke> jeffsch, how about forcing everyone to read the styleguide? that would help
[08:15] <jeffsch> hmmm... draconian.... I like it!
[08:16] <jeffsch> it might be more useful to give feedback that points to the style guide
[08:16] <mdke> yeah
[08:17] <mdke> same thing
[08:17] <mdke> ;)
[08:17] <jeffsch> maybe have a couple of before and after passages on wiki somewhere
[08:17] <jeffsch> for example, convert the sample you pasted here into a proper format
[08:17] <mdke> jeffsch, you think the whole of the userguide is bad? or are some bits worse than others?
[08:18] <mdke> because a lot of the early sections are marked "done"
[08:18] <jeffsch> tbh, i haven't look at the whole userguide, just glance through some sections to see what's happening
[08:19] <mdke> ah k
[08:19] <mdke> i have to go out
[08:19] <mdke> will someone apply njal's patch but give him some feedback on the language?
[08:19] <mdke> later I'll continue my hunt for the gug source
[08:20] <jeffsch> I don't think we need to single out njal... it's a general thing applicable to all
[08:21] <jeffsch> but i'll see if i can come up with something
[08:22] <mdke> nono you misunderstand me
[08:22] <mdke> he has just posted a patch to the list, that's all
[08:22] <mdke> i would apply it but i have to go
[08:22] <jeffsch> ahh... ok.
[08:22] <mdke> i know he appreciates feedback
[08:23] <jeffsch> i have to go too... if it hasn't been applied when i get back, i'll do it.
[08:23] <mdke> ah ok
[08:23] <mdke> bye
[11:44] <mdke> hey robitaille :)
[11:45] <mdke> jeffsch, do we have a recent html preview of the styleguide?
[11:56] <judax> mdke, thanks for the tip on using Bluefish, it truely does rock.  I use it whether I am in gnome or kde
[11:56] <mdke> judax, yeah its so awesome. i only discovered it recently too
[12:02] <jeffsch> mdke: cd ubuntu-doc/gnome
[12:02] <jeffsch> mdke: make sg
[12:03] <jeffsch> html files are in build/styleguide/
[12:03] <mdke> jeffsch, I found an html and pdf in the styleguide directory itself, are those not updated?
[12:03] <jeffsch> no
[12:03] <mdke> shall I remove them?
[12:04] <jeffsch> you can remove the html
[12:04] <mdke> maybe you better do it
[12:04] <jeffsch> i put the pdf in there for people who don't have apache fop and can't build it themselves
[12:04] <mdke> cool
[12:04] <mdke> we should get them online and update the instructions on how to build em in the wiki
[12:05] <jeffsch> yeah. i was planning on waiting until we get a web location for the files
[12:06] <mdke> ok
[12:06] <mdke> sounds fair
[12:06] <jeffsch> but that doesn't stop you from going ahead and doing it... hint hint hint
[12:06] <mdke> the wiki page still refers to make styleguide in the styleguide/ directory
[12:06] <mdke> ok i will change the wiki
[12:06] <jeffsch> yeah. I just added the make target in the gnome Makefile the other day
[12:06] <mdke> ok
[12:07] <mdke> how come in gnome?
[12:07] <jeffsch> mostly because i use gnome