jeffschit would work just as well in the kde Makefile12:07
jeffschit's more practical than logical12:08
mdkeis there no common makefile?12:09
jeffschnot at the moment12:10
mdkeok i've updated the wiki page12:11
jeffschhmm... the samples aren't perfect yet...12:12
jeffschjeff@cloud:~/ubuntu-doc/styleguide $ make sg12:12
mdkewhoops sorry12:13
mdkewill do12:13
jeffschand maybe webbrowser should be two words12:14
=== mdke slaps jeffsch
jeffschi waited just the right amount of time, eh?12:15
jeffschnow there's one more change...12:15
jeffschoops, never mind12:16
jeffschmdke: did you do make sg on your system?12:17
mdkelooks great12:17
mdkei was thinking we should have the stylesheets in the repo12:18
mdkei build em nicely on this system (Ubuntu) but not on systems with different addresses for the stylesheets12:18
jeffschit is: gnome/default.css12:18
mdkei mean the xml->html stylesheets12:19
jeffschthe customization stylesheets are, but the rest are standard location12:20
jeffschif you have docbook installed, then you have the stylesheets installed12:20
jeffschcustomization layer stylesheets are in gnome/libs12:21
mdkejeffsch, but for example on my gentoo system the stylesheets are in a different location, so the builds don't work12:21
jeffschi smell an XML_CATALOG issue...12:21
jeffsch[10:46]  <froud> jeffsch: you may want to update the ubuntu XML_CATALOG for ubuntu stuff12:22
mdkeits just because the stylesheets are referred to by location, so when the location changes the build doesn't work12:22
jeffschi don't know much about it tho12:22
mdkei don't think it is because of that12:22
mdkeits the same for froud's stuff iirc12:22
jeffschso the fault is yours for using gentoo then. :)12:23
mdkebut the same applies to suse and other stuff12:23
mdkeactually what am I saying12:23
mdkeeveryone here uses Ubuntu12:23
mdkewe don't need the stylesheets in our repo12:23
jeffschi suppose if you want to build ubuntu docs on non ubuntu machines, you gotta deal with stuff12:24
mdkeso why did you ask if I'd done make sg earlier?12:24
jeffschto see it the stylesheet customization works on other machines12:25
jeffschit wasn't working until the other day12:25
mdkethe css is the same as for froud's stuff with a pale draft thing on the background12:25
jeffschi got it working on mine, updated the repos, and etc etc12:26
mdkewe should get some ubuntu bling in12:26
mdkemaybe henrik will do it12:26
jeffschyeah, i just copied the default.css from the kde folders12:26
jeffschyeah ubuntu bling is the next step12:26
jeffschhey guess what... take a look at gnome/Makefile12:26
jeffschit looks like froud added stuff so stylesheets are found on SUSE machines12:27
jeffschmaybe you could do the same for gentoo12:27
mdkegood plan12:27
mdkeso jeffsch you have learnt how to convert html and such?12:28
mdke/html/to html12:28
jeffschyou mean xslt?12:28
mdkei dunno12:29
mdkebut you think you might be able to take care of producing make targets for the gnome stuff?12:29
jeffschyou mean like make ug for user guide, etc?12:29
mdkethat sort of thing12:29
jeffschalready done.12:30
jeffschtry it12:30
mdkesure, but in future too12:30
jeffschyeah. hopefully there won't be much to change in the future12:30
mdkehope so12:30
mdkejust sort the css i guess12:30
jeffschyeah. a new css with ubuntu bling would be nice12:31
mdkewe can ask henrik12:31
jeffschyeah. that stuff prolly already exists 12:32
mdkeoh yeah12:32
mdkejust need to merge it with the current css you and froud are using right?12:32
jeffschhopefull, just have to replace default.css12:33
mdkefor draft we could use the theme from the wiki css draft page12:34
jeffschmdke: did you apply njal's patch?12:37
mdkejeffsch, yep12:39
mdkehe wrote and said he appreciated the feedback and would work on it12:39
jeffschok. his writing style is pretty cool. but, alas, we are writing tech docs...12:41
=== robitaille robitaille is finally here, 60 mins after starting his IRC client; hi mdke!
mdkei referred him to the styleguide but also said that the styleguide didn't have a lot of stuff on grammar/style yet so to use the links provided12:42
mdkehey robitaille :)12:43
=== jeffsch thinks robitaille needs to upgrade his 486
robitaillehello again.  I started irrsi in a window, then totally forgot about it while doing other stuff12:43
mdkelooks like mediawiki isn't packaged for sarge12:48
mdkeoh, or ubuntu12:48
mdkeok i've found the gnome ug jeffsch 01:09
mdkeits big and v complicated01:10
jeffschis it split across a bunch of files?01:10
mdkeyeah looks like it01:10
mdkei'm still checking out the enormous cvs right now01:11
mdkeall the languages have their own screenshots01:11
mdkeif we use the gnome ug we should figure out a way to use the translations...01:11
jeffschwill it be compatible with rosetta?01:13
mdkei have no idea how they organise their translations01:13
mdkegnome don't like rosetta because it provides no means of pushing translations upstream that by rights should be done originally in rosetta01:14
jeffschhmmm... it's getting more and more complicated01:15
mdkedon't worry01:15
mdkemost of the translations are probably years old01:15
mdkethe italian ones were committed 2 years ago01:15
mdkeditto fr01:16
jeffschyikes! it must make life a little difficult for new user trying to learn gnome desktop01:17
mdkeso what do you think we should do with this gnome ug01:18
mdkejeffsch, ^^01:18
jeffschadd in the complication that ubuntu desktop is slightly different than gnome desktop01:18
jeffschi think i need to read it more before knowing for sure what to do01:19
jeffschin the end, we should do whatever is best for ubuntu users01:19
mdkejeffsch, i might put it in svn and we can look at it and then discuss at next meeting01:20
mdkewhat do you think?01:20
jeffschsounds good01:20
mdkejust the en ;)01:20
mdkei'll put it in teamstuff01:20
jeffschyeah. and gnome calls en C for some reason01:20
jeffschi think we should worry less about what we can push upstream, and more about the ubuntu user experience01:22
mdkejeffsch, should I include the screenshots in my commit? might make a quite large01:26
jeffschi would include them. people need to see that they are not ubuntu01:27
mdkeouch ok here goes01:28
jeffschgnome docs try to avoid screenshots anyway, so it shouldn't be too large01:29
jeffschat least in theory :)01:29
mdkeok here it comes01:29
=== mdke strokes his upload connection
jeffschhmm... not too bad... only 5M01:38
mdketakes a while on 128 upload01:38
jeffschchangelog says last update was 2004-08-2701:39
jeffschbut nothing substantial since 2004-04-2001:40
mdkelast cvs commit was 3 months ago01:41
mdkei think all he did was probably to put his name on the top and change it to gnome 2.10 ;)01:41
mdkethat's WRONG man01:41
jeffschhey... there's two pdf files in there for a total of 2.8M01:43
mdkei'll remove em shall I?01:45
jeffschone is gnome 2.2 and the other gnome 2.401:45
jeffschnot your fault!01:45
jeffschyeah, remove em01:45
jeffschcuts the download in half01:46
mdkethanks for pointing that out01:47
mdkejeffsch, there is a lot of good stuff in there01:57
jeffschyeah, there is.02:04
jeffschhow much work you think it would take to make it suitable for ubuntu (before integrating the stuff we already have in the current ug)?02:05
mdkei have no idea02:05
mdkei'm thinking quite a bit02:06
mdkebut your method would inspire a better structure for the finished document, our userguide is not well structured right now02:06
jeffschit might be a good learning experience to go through line by line, making sure the menus all point to the right place, and so on02:06
jeffschpeople would learn the docbook tags02:07
mdkeit depends really on whether anyone is willing to put the work in02:07
jeffschit would be tedious, that's for sure02:07
mdkebtw did you ever incorporate the tags from gtaylor into the styleguide?02:07
jeffschnot yet02:07
jeffschi gotta run. cya02:16
mdkebye mate02:16
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=== jsgotangco wonders what's with the huge update on svn this weekend
jsgotangcohmm its all kde03:49
jsgotangcothe beginnings of a vendor drop...03:49
mdkehi jsgotangco 03:57
mdkegood weekend?03:57
jsgotangcoaye we just arrived last night03:58
jsgotangcoso i wasn't able to check out the happenings over in ubuntu land03:58
jsgotangcoseems the natives have been quiet lately03:58
mdkearrived where?03:58
jsgotangcooh we went home to my folks' old farm we haven't been going there lately03:59
mdkehow does one do an xinclude?04:00
mdketo include part of another document04:00
mdkemaybe it isn't possible with another document that isn't in our repo lol04:02
jsgotangcoi think you have to declare it first in the DTD04:03
mdkei wanted to include the update-manager in the userguide04:04
jsgotangcoahhh you've been busy04:04
jsgotangcohow was edubuntu04:05
jsgotangco(i almost forgot about it)04:06
mdkeit was really cool04:06
mdkei met some cool people04:06
mdkeand learnt some interesting things04:06
jsgotangcowho was there?04:06
mdkemdz, mark, henrik, ogra from ubuntu04:07
mdkecolin applegate and paul flint04:07
jsgotangcoah so colin was there04:07
jsgotangco(don't know paul flint)04:07
mdkehe's an incredibly loud american04:07
jsgotangcoaren't they all04:08
mdkesome people from guadalinex, skolelinux and some uk folk in education04:08
mdkeheh colin was the opposite04:08
jsgotangcolet me guess04:08
mdkeit is an incredible project04:08
jsgotangcojavier carranza?04:08
mdkethey have 200,000 installs on school computers04:08
mdkethat wasn't the guy i think04:08
jsgotangcodid you get to talk to mdz04:09
mdkea little04:09
mdkei was really blown away by him04:09
mdkeand mark too04:09
jsgotangcois ogra leading the project04:09
mdkei believe so04:09
mdkehe was also real nice04:09
mdkeah also Jane was there04:10
jsgotangcoerr so what happened?04:10
mdkei only went on the first day04:10
mdkeit was a lot of brainstorming and people talking about their experiences with school based projects04:11
mdkepretty interesting04:11
mdkeyou'll find stuff on the wiki, i believe Jane was putting it up as she took notes04:11
jsgotangcohmm ok04:12
jsgotangcodid elkner come?04:12
mdkenope he didn't make it04:13
jsgotangcooh too bad he's a really niceguy04:14
mdkeanyway i was really impressed by the Ubuntu guys04:15
mdkethey are very smart and also friendly04:15
mdkethe actual conference was a little disorganised but in general it was probably quite useful to all concerned, at least on day 104:15
jsgotangcooh edubuntu was incredibly specific04:18
jsgotangcowe were a riot in sydney04:18
jsgotangcoim getting lost in our svn04:18
mdkeor i forgot04:19
mdkejordi was there04:20
mdkei think that is everyone04:20
jsgotangcowell i haven't been doing any useful svn stuff lately04:21
jsgotangcothat's why i guess i am lost04:22
jsgotangcoi have been looking into scrollkeeper04:22
mdkeoh awesome04:22
mdkehow is it going?04:22
jsgotangcooh its like a jungle out there04:22
jsgotangcoits basically similar to comparing two tables04:23
jsgotangcoexcept the other table is incredibly overflowing with stuff04:23
mdkebtw I emailed the -devel and -users lists reporting on the meeting, just to try and keep the ubuntu world up to date on our group04:25
mdkehopefully we can attract more contributors04:25
jsgotangcoi should have done that before, but that thanks04:25
jsgotangcohmmm great hoary doesn't detect my old hp printer04:26
jsgotangcoi guess it doesnt like usb printers yet04:26
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jsgotangcoits strange everytime you send to the list, it requires authorization04:43
mdkethat is because I am thick and keep sending from the wrong address04:45
mdkei keep cancelling the posts though as soon as I realise04:46
mdkeso you shouldn't have to moderate them04:46
jsgotangcoyeah well it still informs me anyway04:47
mdkeit won't happen again, i've subscribed both addresses now04:47
mdkei don't set that for ubuntu-it04:47
mdkehey we've made no 1 on distrowatch for last 12 months now too04:50
jsgotangconot bad for a distro that is yet to reach 1 year old04:50
mdkeok bed time04:52
mdke4 am04:52
jsgotangcohmmm an underwater volcano is erupting near iwo jima04:54
jsgotangcomust be Godzilla04:54
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TraceHello, I am very intrested in hardware detection of Ubuntu, can someone tell me where i can find such doc?07:21
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froudAfrican Greetings08:45
jsgotangcofroud, hi08:47
froudwaz up jsgotangco 08:47
jsgotangconothing much, sorry i'm not doing that much svn work lately, i'm currently lost at it, but i'm doing stuff on scrollkeeper08:47
froudscrollkeeper, why?08:48
jsgotangcoi'm digging at the stuff not being used at all or disorganized08:49
froudok whatever tickles your fancy08:49
froudhave you seen the new kde system settings08:50
froudreplaces kcontrol in kubuntu08:50
jsgotangcoim totally lost at it08:50
froudwhy lost?08:52
jsgotangcowhat KDE is this?08:52
jsgotangcoKDE 3.5?08:52
froudKubuntu Breezy08:53
froudKControl is dropped for kde-systemsettings08:53
froudit is not part of standard kde08:53
jsgotangcohmm probably because i haven't been using kubuntu lately, reason why i am lost08:54
froudno I had to compile it and install it, Kubuntu breezy is not ready yet.08:55
froudRiddell did a good job with it, I think08:55
jsgotangcohmmm isn't it too early to do the compiling thing and breezy-fying the doc08:56
froudyes and no. Things like this need to start early or we will not have enough time later08:57
jsgotangcoas much as i'd like to do more stuff (which i believe im capable of), im so limited with hardware atm08:57
froudI use removable hard drives on some of the lab machines08:58
froudwell school run c u laters08:58
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jsgotangcowelcome back09:24
froudcanged hosts09:25
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jsgotangcoahh i thought you were in a school run09:28
froudyes it was09:28
froudthen I leave my laptop and the louge and move to my home office09:29
jsgotangcothats nice09:33
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mdke_froud_, thanks for the email12:52
mdkewhich of the two solutions would you consider to be more desirable?12:52
mdkesounds like vendor drop is probably more satisfactory12:52
_froud_vendor drop in vendpr/gnome/12:53
mdkefroud, what did you do with njal's patch? i had already applied it yesterday12:54
mdkedid he send another?12:55
froudHmm yes there was another12:55
froudI applied it12:55
mdkeit's all deletes12:55
froud--- userguide.xml(revision 1341)12:56
froud+++ userguide.xml(working copy)12:56
froud@@ -1980,6 +1980,15 @@12:56
froud              directorys (see above), folder newfolder should be12:56
froud              in the list.</para>12:56
froud          </listitem>12:56
froud+  <listitem>12:56
froud+  <para>Change Directorys: - cd (/directory/location)</para>12:56
froud+  <para>This is a simple enough command cd (Change Directory) typing cd on it's own will take you to your home (/home/yourusername) directory, sometimes known as ~. To get to the new folder you created type cd ~/newfolder (remember that ~ is a shortcut, nothing wrong with shortcuts).</para>12:56
froud+  </listitem>12:57
froud+  <listitem>12:57
froud+  <para>Remove Directorys: - rm -rf (directoryname)</para>12:57
mdkeno need to do massive paste's like that!12:57
froud+      <para>Again the command is simple, to remove the newfolder type cd ~ (just to get you outside of the directory before you delete it) now type rm -rf newfolder, how do you know it is gone? Simple, type your prefered command for viewing directorys, is newfolder there? It shouldnt be. Congratulations you have used the basic file management functions in the terminal.</para>12:57
froud+  </listitem>12:57
froud        </itemizedlist>12:57
froud        <!-- To here... more work needs done-->12:57
froud      </sect1>12:57
mdkeI'm talking about a totally different revision12:57
mdkerevision 134712:57
mdkeall that section above is deleted now12:57
mdkecheck the link i posted above, it shows the revision12:58
mdkei think what has happened is that you applied the patch that i had already applied12:59
froudArgh! when you patch send mail to list otherwise we will collide01:01
mdkei did01:01
froudjust role back my version01:01
mdkei'm pretty sure01:01
froudI did not get message01:01
mdkeperhaps I sent it accidentally only to njal01:01
mdkehow does on roll back?01:02
mdkefroud, still here?01:04
froudmdke: read http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.1/svn-book.html#svn-ch-401:06
froudsearch for "Undoing Changes"01:06
froudbit busy just now01:06
froudworking on deadlines01:07
mdkecool thanks01:07
mdkefroud, ok I've rolled back01:12
mdkesorry about that01:12
froudcheer now you know how :-)01:12
froudno my fault I should have checked01:12
mdkeboth our faults01:12
mdkeif you have time later you have to teach me vendor drops01:12
froudOk I won't argue ;-)01:12
froudbut good if you know about merging and branching01:13
froudhelps if other learn this stuff01:13
mdkeyes I've bookmarked that document01:13
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mdkehttp://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/update-manager/help/C/ <-- froud is that the right one?01:32
froudhas last patch from jeffsch 01:33
mdkewicked am adding to svn now01:34
mdkeoh no i'm not01:36
mdkevendor is outside trunk?01:36
froudyou will find vendor/gnome01:36
mdkei only have trunk right now01:37
froudcheckout vendor relative to your trunk01:37
froudsvn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/vendor vendor01:37
mdkefrom where do i type that?01:37
froudwhere is you ubuntu-docs/01:38
mdkein home01:38
froudso cd ubuntu-docs01:38
froudwhen you ls you should see trunk/01:39
froudthen do svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/vendor vendor01:39
mdkeno when I ls I see the contents of trunk01:39
froudbtw when you bringin the doc dont bring in any .cvs folders01:39
mdkei won't01:39
froudand use svn import not svn commit01:39
froudoh dear01:39
froudyou have trunk in ubuntu-docs01:40
mdkebecause that is what it says on the StepbyStepRepositories page01:40
mdkei just followed that01:40
froudsvn for dummies01:40
froudnot that you are a dummy01:40
mdkefair enough01:40
mdkehow come vendor isn't in trunk?01:41
froudmake a new folder for your docs01:41
mdkeok done01:41
froudsvn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos {thatfolder}01:41
froudthat will give you branches/ trunk/ tags/ and vendor/01:42
froudits big01:42
mdkei bet01:42
mdkeok will do that01:42
froudbut  that is everything to do with the project01:42
mdkehow come vendor isn't in trunk tho?01:42
froudthat's the way svn repos's are structured01:43
froudyou should read more from svn book :-)01:43
mdkedoes it mean that people who don't have vendor checked out can't build html documents that use vendor?01:43
mdkethat is a shame01:44
froudthat is one of the downsides01:44
mdkecan't we put vendor inside trunk?01:44
froudof a v drop01:44
froudyou can, but01:44
froudbest keep a v drop in vendor and then if you want copy it to trunk/gnome01:44
mdkehow come?01:45
froudyou see you will have to have a checkout of the upstream outside your svn wc01:45
froudso you can update that copy and diff changes into the svn wc vendor drop01:45
mdkei don't get it :/01:46
froudfor example I have all kde svn in seperate workspace01:46
froudand I have a copy of kde docs in our my copy of ubuntu-doc svn01:46
froudI merge changes upstream to the ubuntu copy and commit them01:46
mdkeyes i see01:47
mdkebut why can't that be done to trunk/vendor?01:47
froudthis is why baz is a better system :-)01:47
froudYou want vendor to remain as printine to upstream as possible01:47
mdkecan't changes be merged to trunk/vendor and committed? that way it still remains identical to upstream01:47
froudyes, but trunk is where the whole world hacks01:48
froudstrange stuff happens in trunk01:48
mdkei haven't noticed that ;)01:48
froudin trunk you will lose control of the vendor drop01:48
froudbetter keep it out of site and mae people know that they do not change that unless it is gnome (upstream) specific01:49
froudand if they do change in vendor/ then that patch must be moved upstream01:49
froudso before you patch a vendor you must also merge changes in upstream into the drop01:50
froudbut now that you have a v drop01:50
mdkebut it also means that most people don't see the xinclude material when they view the document01:50
froudyou can XInclude or XPointer to those docs01:50
froudonly when they have the vendor/01:50
mdkethat is really bad :/01:50
froudthat is why you can then make an svn copy from vendor/gnome to trunk/gnome/upstream01:51
mdkefroud, don't the xinclude and xpointer links have to be changed then?01:51
froudthat way they will not need vendor/ and you can maintain the pristine quality of the vendor/01:51
froudyes instead of refing the ../../../../vendor/01:52
froudthey refer to the copy in trunk/gnome/upstream/01:52
froudWhen I start using the kde drop I will make a copy of the kde v drop in trunk/kde/upstream01:53
froudI dont want people hacking the vendor/01:53
mdkeand the links you make in the documents will be to trunk/kde/upstream?01:53
mdkeor to vendor?01:53
froudthe trunk01:53
mdkeok i see, that has reassured me01:53
froudAlso I want canges in the trunk/kde/upstream to be selectively merged into /vendor/kde/01:54
froudthen and only then will I patch and move the changes upstream01:54
mdkeyes i see that01:54
mdkethanks froud 01:55
mdkenow to check out repos01:55
froudso you must hold a string hand on what people do to your trunk/copy of the upstream01:55
froudremember no ubuntu stuff in there01:55
froudif  they do, shoot them01:56
froudonly upstream specific stuff01:56
mdkebut if they do stuff, it is not hard to delete it and revert back to the upstream from vendor/01:56
froudand remember that at gnome you must talk to the maintainer01:56
mdketalk to the maintainer?01:56
froudbut you dont want to be working at reverting their changes01:56
froudyes maintainer for update manager is me01:57
froudso go for it01:57
mdkebut why is it necessary to talk to the maintainer?01:57
froudbut for gug you cant just make changes01:57
froudgnome policy01:57
froudno changes without mainter01:57
froudkde is diff, everyone can change a kde doc01:58
mdkechanges to upstream you mean?01:58
mdkeor changes in our docs?01:58
froudbut in gnome, you speak to the maintainer, upstream01:58
mdkei don't intend to make any changes upstream, for a start I don't have access to their cvs01:58
froudspeaking to the gnome doc mainter is good idea. if they say yes, then you know that the patch will be accepted. if they say no, not a good idea, then you wont waste time working on a patch that wont be acepted01:59
mdkeoh if we do patches, naturally I will speak to them01:59
mdkebut right now it is just a question of using them01:59
froudI have access, but must first speak to mainaters02:00
froudrules, geeze they suck02:00
froudnow if mainters dont respond02:01
froudjust contact gnome-docs mailing list02:01
mdkeyes but as I say, i don't intend to do patches right now02:01
froudif no response, I will patch as silence will be considered consent :-)02:01
froudsure, just so you know02:02
froudthe silence is consent thing02:02
mdkethat is the worst concept ever02:02
froudyou will find it it the only way to move forward in some cases02:02
froudwell it works in FOSS02:02
mdkenot for me02:03
froudwell then you will find progress slow going :-)02:03
froudsee what I have done in 1 week with kubuntu02:03
froudI speak to our list and if people have no comment I go for it02:03
froudI give enough time for the timezones to read and respond02:04
froudif no response, proceed02:04
froudotherwise you will get stuck02:04
=== mdke doesn't respond
froudknow it does not sound nice, but sometimes it must be the way02:05
froudif you want to make progress you must do02:05
mdkewell everyone works differently02:05
froudif people don't contribute comments you must just do02:05
mdkeit depends what it is02:05
froudyou will get much more done that way02:05
mdkeyou know my views on this02:06
froudwell it's up to you :-)02:06
mdkeok thanks for your help with the repos02:06
froudbut as you can see, the progress I make is substantial02:06
mdkeenough of this please02:06
froudOh no02:06
=== froud goes back to dealines
=== plovs [~plovs@] has joined #ubuntu-doc
mptmdke: ping02:28
mdkehi mpt 02:28
mptI'd like to actually start doing some writing02:29
mptof Ubuntu Help02:29
mdkeanything in mind?02:29
mptI've chatted with shaunm of gnome-docs fame02:29
mptso yelp will default to opening a particular book02:29
mptrather than defaulting to a hierarchy of software02:30
mptfor vanilla Gnome, that will be the Gnome User Guide02:30
mptDoes the GUG have any relationship to any of the docs listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects ?02:30
mdkethe gnome user guide was last updated about a year ago02:30
mptsure, so a lot of changes will need to go upstream as well02:31
mdkeyou will find a copy of it in teamstuff/02:31
mptI'm under no illusions about the amount of stuff that will need rewriting, no matter what the starting point is02:31
mdkempt, perhaps you can contribute to the thread on the mailing list about it?02:31
mdkeas far as yelp opening a particular book, IMO that decision should be one that the team should take together02:32
mdkewe have been thinking about how to use the gnome user guide, if at all. there is a thread on the mailing list and jeffsch has some ideas about it too02:33
mdkethat's why I put it in our repo so we can look at it and talk about it02:33
mptah, that's why it's not in my local tree02:33
mptwhich I last updated, um, a month or so ago :-)02:34
mdkei put it in yesterday02:34
mptok, so if maybe 80~90% of my changes would be suitable for upstream02:34
mptwho would be in charge of merging such changes into the Ubuntu version?02:34
mptanyone who put their hand up?02:35
mdkewell it will come into Ubuntu in the normal way, through debian I suppose02:35
mptAs for the decision, I think it's being made upstream02:36
mdkeif we decide to use the GUG in our docs, then it will depend on how we do it02:36
mdkewell the decision on what yelp displays is one that is taken at a distro level is it not?02:36
mdkeespecially if our documentation is going to be in a different format (html), yelp will have to be instructed accordingly02:37
jdubmdke: dude ->02:38
jdubgnome2-user-docs package will be done by seb for ubuntu, most likely02:38
mdkejdub, what is that link?02:39
jdubmdke: cvs commits for the user guide02:39
mdkejdub, is it different to http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/gnome-user-docs/gnome2-user-guide/C/ ?02:40
jdubwhy ask me when you could read the page?02:41
mdkejdub, it looks different to me, so that's why I asked02:41
jdubyou're looking at a different directory of the same cvs module02:41
mdkejdub, but I assume your reason for posting me the link was to show that the userguide is not out of date?02:42
jdubmostly that it has been touched more recently than a year02:42
jdub3 months is a particularly telling period, too02:42
=== mpt subscribes to YAML, gnome-doc-list
mdkejdub, yes, the changelog shows that a couple of minor changes have been made since a year ago, but essentially what has happened is that the document is a 2.6 guide, with a 2.10 label02:43
mdkeask seb what he thinks of it02:43
mdkeit refers to applications:// and menu editing via right click02:44
mdkebut I agree, that page shows a lot more edits than appear in the changelog that I'd previously looked at02:45
jdub(check the diffs, they're not that minor_02:45
mdkeam looking now02:46
jdub(the final one is the only one not in ubuntu)02:46
jdubanyway, it's definitely less than a year, and on par with release dates02:46
mdkeok whatever, if you're happy with it, then that is fine by me02:47
mdkeif its being actively developed, then I will file bugs for the stuff that I consider to be out of date02:47
mptarg, it's GFDL02:49
jdubmdke: it's not without flaws, but it has had recent attention02:51
mdkeokay well the thread on the mailing list is there if you guys have ideas about how we should use the GUG02:52
mdkempt, it may be that your idea is similar to jeffsch 's02:53
=== mpt wonders how that thread ended up in his Trash unread
mptmdke, I don't see any messages from jeffsch in that thread03:00
mdkempt, no he hasn't sent any03:01
mdkehe expressed his idea yesterday in irc03:01
froudmdke: jeffsch wants to for the code03:01
froudjeffsch: wanted to for GDP code for the gug03:02
mdketo for?03:02
froudbut if jdub has an ubuntu version of gug then better to use that03:02
=== mdke rubs his eyes
mdkeubuntu version?03:03
froudjeffsch: idea was to take the gug and rework it to uug03:03
mdkei was here03:03
=== plovs [~plovs@] has joined #ubuntu-doc
mdkeah you mean fork03:04
froudis that new version ubuntu specific?03:04
mdkethat is not a new version03:04
froudak more recent version03:04
mdkeno its the same version03:04
froudis it gnome or ubuntu03:04
froudhmm we're not understanding each other03:05
mdkefroud, what on earth are you talking about?03:05
mdkei mucked up the vendor drop03:05
=== mdke tries again
froudis this a more recent version of the gnome doc?03:05
mdkeit is cvs stats03:06
mdkeclick on it and you'll see03:06
froudyes, but  the patches show a more recent version that what you see in cvs03:06
mdkei asked jdub and he said it was the same03:06
froudI see03:07
froudwell so longas you can maintain the v drop03:07
froudyou will be ok03:07
froudand I would not count on the gdp being dead03:07
mdkei'm not doing a v drop of that, i'm doing one of update-manager03:07
froudit's been through this type of dead patch before03:08
=== mpt reads http://developer.gnome.org/tools/cvs.html and cries
froudOK but you put it in teamstuff03:08
froudnot good03:08
froudthe gug03:08
mptHow do I set an environment variable?03:08
mptI used to know that sort of thing, eight years ago03:08
froudshould not be in teamstuff03:08
froudset constant=string03:09
mdkethe GUG is in teamstuff so that people can read it and look at it03:09
mdkeit SHOULD be there03:09
froudis that a good idea they can read it upstream03:10
mdkeits not there for use or dropping, it is just for jeffsch and others to play aroudn03:10
mptfroud: Yes, but I forget where the $ is supposed to go, and what file I put that command in if I want it to be set whenever I log in03:10
froudbetter to vendor it or jeffsch can make a branch03:10
froudmpt: what you doing you want to export to your path03:10
mptsetting the CVSROOT variable03:11
mdke export CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous@anoncvs.gnome.org:/cvs/gnome03:12
mptbrilliant, thanks03:12
=== mpt installs cvs
mdkebut the gnome2-user-guide cvs checkout is in teamstuff/ on our repository if you want to look at it03:16
mptI don't want to look at it, I want to make a trial patch to see how easy the process is03:17
mpthmm, cvs login tells me I entered the wrong password03:17
mpteven though I'm anonymous03:17
mdkewhat command did you use?03:18
froudmdke: much better :-) r1351 - in vendor/gnome/update-manager03:18
mptmdke: cvs login03:18
mdkefroud, second time lucky ;)03:18
froudnow if the gug could be the same it would be nice03:18
mdkefroud, we haven't decided whether to vendor drop that or not yet03:18
mdkempt, cvs -z3 co gnome-user-docs/gnome2-user-guide/C should be enough03:18
mptaha, now it's working03:19
mptyes, the instructions were badly written03:19
mptsuggesting that login was necessary even if you were anonymous03:19
mdkempt, you were using the GDP guide?03:19
mptI didn't know there was one03:20
mptI'm using http://developer.gnome.org/tools/cvs.html03:20
mdkempt, you're using the right one03:20
mdkefroud, my svn up isn't working now i did that import03:21
mdkeok fixed it03:21
mptnooooo, I don't want the Gnome User Guide for Gnome 1.4 in Spanish03:22
froudmdke: hmm03:23
froudworks here03:23
mdkempt, you're checking out the whole tree?03:23
mdkehardcore ;)03:24
mdkempt, cvs -z3 co gnome-user-docs/gnome2-user-guide/C 03:24
froudmdke: you must now delete the folder and then do svn up03:24
mdkefroud, yeah that's what I did :)03:24
froudremembe ryou use dimport03:24
mdkeits working now03:24
froudok cool03:24
mptmdke: Yes, I wasn't following your instructions closely enough03:24
froudright now I have it too :-)03:25
mdkempt, otherwise you get all the screenshots for each language ;)03:25
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mpthelp shouldn't have screenshots in it anyway03:32
mptbut yeah, I have just the C-ish version now03:32
froudmdke: see trunk/kde for example if vendor drp copy03:32
froudsvn up03:33
mdkenice one03:33
jdubmpt: (the guide-like documents and help infrastructure as they currently stand benefit from including screenshots; when we get to context/topic oriented help, i'll totally agree.)03:33
froudif you can follow the same convention, then it will be easy for users to follow03:33
froudjdub: yes agreed, books have screenshots help does not :-)03:34
froudunless absolutely needed03:34
mdkecan i just svn cp to trunk/gnome/upstream/gnome?03:34
jdubfroud: that's not the most useful way of describing it at the moment.03:35
froudI suggest making the extra gnome folder since you may have other upstreams03:35
froudjdub: ok03:35
froudjdub: however you want to describe it03:35
froudjdub: but as general convention making limited use of screeshots in help is good practice03:36
froudjdub: for manuals it is different03:36
jdubmy comment answers that (there is no distinction at the moment)03:37
froudcorrect at present there is not03:37
mdkefroud, ok i just did the svn copy, did i do it right?03:39
froudshit I hav eto install XP on a box and I have lost my license keys03:41
froudanyone know where I can get a key?03:41
mdkeXP is ebil03:42
froudwork sometime customers give me requirements to doc on windoze03:43
mdkei guess you can ring em up and ask for your licence key 03:44
froudand how do they know what key came with the box?03:45
mdkei don't know03:45
froudshit and I dont have another widoze xp from which to copy it03:45
mdkemaybe your vendor is the best bet if its an oem03:45
froudhe he this is africa dude03:46
froudthe internet you gotta love it03:47
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=== mpt wonders how to float an image in DocBook :-)
froudonly works for xsl:fo and then you need an xslfo processor that supports floats04:20
froudxep or xsl formatter will do it04:20
froudbut not fop04:20
mpt    <mediaobject>04:21
mpt      <imageobject>04:21
mpt        <imagedata fileref="figures/lockscreen_icon.png" format="PNG"/>04:21
mpt      </imageobject>04:21
mpt    </mediaobject>04:21
mptI've already removed <screenshot> and <textobject> from that, which were silly04:21
mptIt's just a little icon, it should be floated to the side04:21
froudnot really silly04:21
frouddepends on the case04:22
mptI'm talking about this particular case04:22
froudthe text object is good04:22
mptFor perhaps 10% of illustrations, <textobject> would be useful for blind users etc04:22
froudwhen no image is found the text object value is displayed04:22
froudand for users using lynx04:22
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mptBut in this case, if the illustration is not available, the best possible replacement is nothing at all04:23
mptThe doc is much more pleasant+sensible without any replacement text than it would be with any replacement text you or I might think of04:23
froudis the image inline to the text or in a block04:23
mptIt's on a line by itself04:23
mptThat's what I'm trying to change04:24
froudblock then04:24
froudwhat are the parents04:24
mptI pasted them all04:24
mpt(now that I've removed <screenshot>)04:24
froudparents of the mediaobject04:24
=== melodie [~melodie@dyn-213-36-22-40.ppp.tiscali.fr] has joined #ubuntu-doc
froudwhat are they now04:24
mptand above that, <chapter>04:25
froudmpt: http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/FigureFloats.html04:27
froudbut as I said it only works for xslfo04:27
froudperhaps the new stylesheets for html have fixed that04:28
froudbut last I used our stylesheets it did not04:28
melodiemdke: if you remember the burning problem and doc question I came for about one week ago04:29
melodieI wanted to tell you I solved it :)04:29
froudmpt: oh and as far as I know you should have a figure parent04:30
mptI love how yelp crashes on any XML error04:30
froud<figure float="right">04:30
mptDraconian error handling at its most extreme :-)04:31
froud    <title></title>04:31
froud    <mediaobject>04:31
froud    <imageobject>04:31
froud    <imagedata fileref="" format=""/>04:31
froud    </imageobject>04:31
froud    </mediaobject>04:31
froud    </figure>04:31
froud<informalfigure float="right">04:31
froud    <mediaobject>04:31
froud    <imageobject>04:31
froud    <imagedata fileref="" format=""/>04:31
froud    </imageobject>04:31
froud    </mediaobject>04:31
froud    </informalfigure>04:31
froudhope that helps04:31
froudmpt but you sure yelp supports the floats04:31
froudI see no support for it in the yelp xsls04:32
mptI definitely did have real XML errors there anyway04:32
froudwell my version is a bit behond04:32
=== mpt wonders at the difference between <menuchoice>, <guimenu>, and <guimenuitem>
=== mpt growls at Gaim for swallowing SGML tags
mptinformalfigure, eh04:37
=== plovs [~plovs@] has joined #ubuntu-doc
mptthanks froud04:40
froudmpt: http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html04:48
frouddifference between <menuchoice>, <guimenu>, and <guimenuitem>04:49
mptah, <menuchoice> is what inserts the arrows04:52
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mptbehind every quirky help file explanation is a usability bug05:03
mptFor ten points, what is the bug here? "1. Choose Actions Lock Screen.              If that doesnt work, you dont have a screensaver set up. To set up a screensaver, open System Preferences Screensaver, and choose an item from the Mode: menu."05:04
mptmdke: "cvs diff -u -p user-guide.xml" produces zero output. What might I be doing wrong?05:09
mptoh, wait05:11
=== FLeiXiuS [~fleixius@pcp0010487351pcs.essex01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc
mptI figured it out05:45
mptI was diffing the wrong file05:45
mptWell, that was fun05:45
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