[12:07] <jeffsch> it would work just as well in the kde Makefile
[12:08] <jeffsch> it's more practical than logical
[12:09] <mdke> is there no common makefile?
[12:10] <jeffsch> not at the moment
[12:11] <mdke> ok i've updated the wiki page
[12:12] <jeffsch> hmm... the samples aren't perfect yet...
[12:12] <jeffsch> jeff@cloud:~/ubuntu-doc/styleguide $ make sg
[12:13] <mdke> whoops sorry
[12:13] <mdke> will do
[12:14] <jeffsch> and maybe webbrowser should be two words
[12:15] <mdke> pah
[12:15] <mdke> done
[12:15] <jeffsch> i waited just the right amount of time, eh?
[12:15] <jeffsch> now there's one more change...
[12:16] <jeffsch> oops, never mind
[12:17] <jeffsch> mdke: did you do make sg on your system?
[12:17] <mdke> yes
[12:17] <mdke> looks great
[12:18] <mdke> i was thinking we should have the stylesheets in the repo
[12:18] <mdke> i build em nicely on this system (Ubuntu) but not on systems with different addresses for the stylesheets
[12:18] <jeffsch> it is: gnome/default.css
[12:19] <mdke> i mean the xml->html stylesheets
[12:20] <jeffsch> the customization stylesheets are, but the rest are standard location
[12:20] <jeffsch> if you have docbook installed, then you have the stylesheets installed
[12:21] <jeffsch> customization layer stylesheets are in gnome/libs
[12:21] <mdke> jeffsch, but for example on my gentoo system the stylesheets are in a different location, so the builds don't work
[12:21] <jeffsch> i smell an XML_CATALOG issue...
[12:22] <jeffsch> [10:46]  <froud> jeffsch: you may want to update the ubuntu XML_CATALOG for ubuntu stuff
[12:22] <mdke> its just because the stylesheets are referred to by location, so when the location changes the build doesn't work
[12:22] <jeffsch> i don't know much about it tho
[12:22] <mdke> i don't think it is because of that
[12:22] <mdke> its the same for froud's stuff iirc
[12:23] <jeffsch> so the fault is yours for using gentoo then. :)
[12:23] <mdke> yes
[12:23] <mdke> but the same applies to suse and other stuff
[12:23] <mdke> actually what am I saying
[12:23] <mdke> everyone here uses Ubuntu
[12:23] <mdke> we don't need the stylesheets in our repo
[12:24] <jeffsch> i suppose if you want to build ubuntu docs on non ubuntu machines, you gotta deal with stuff
[12:24] <mdke> yup
[12:24] <mdke> so why did you ask if I'd done make sg earlier?
[12:25] <jeffsch> to see it the stylesheet customization works on other machines
[12:25] <jeffsch> it wasn't working until the other day
[12:25] <mdke> ah
[12:25] <mdke> the css is the same as for froud's stuff with a pale draft thing on the background
[12:26] <jeffsch> i got it working on mine, updated the repos, and etc etc
[12:26] <mdke> we should get some ubuntu bling in
[12:26] <mdke> maybe henrik will do it
[12:26] <jeffsch> yeah, i just copied the default.css from the kde folders
[12:26] <jeffsch> yeah ubuntu bling is the next step
[12:26] <jeffsch> hey guess what... take a look at gnome/Makefile
[12:27] <jeffsch> it looks like froud added stuff so stylesheets are found on SUSE machines
[12:27] <jeffsch> maybe you could do the same for gentoo
[12:27] <mdke> good plan
[12:28] <mdke> so jeffsch you have learnt how to convert html and such?
[12:28] <mdke> /html/to html
[12:28] <jeffsch> you mean xslt?
[12:29] <mdke> i dunno
[12:29] <mdke> but you think you might be able to take care of producing make targets for the gnome stuff?
[12:29] <jeffsch> you mean like make ug for user guide, etc?
[12:29] <mdke> that sort of thing
[12:30] <jeffsch> already done.
[12:30] <jeffsch> try it
[12:30] <mdke> sure, but in future too
[12:30] <jeffsch> yeah. hopefully there won't be much to change in the future
[12:30] <mdke> hope so
[12:30] <mdke> just sort the css i guess
[12:31] <jeffsch> yeah. a new css with ubuntu bling would be nice
[12:31] <mdke> we can ask henrik
[12:32] <jeffsch> yeah. that stuff prolly already exists 
[12:32] <mdke> oh yeah
[12:32] <mdke> just need to merge it with the current css you and froud are using right?
[12:33] <jeffsch> hopefull, just have to replace default.css
[12:33] <mdke> cool
[12:34] <mdke> for draft we could use the theme from the wiki css draft page
[12:37] <jeffsch> mdke: did you apply njal's patch?
[12:39] <mdke> jeffsch, yep
[12:39] <mdke> he wrote and said he appreciated the feedback and would work on it
[12:41] <jeffsch> ok. his writing style is pretty cool. but, alas, we are writing tech docs...
[12:42] <mdke> yep
[12:42] <mdke> i referred him to the styleguide but also said that the styleguide didn't have a lot of stuff on grammar/style yet so to use the links provided
[12:43] <mdke> hey robitaille :)
[12:43] <robitaille> hello again.  I started irrsi in a window, then totally forgot about it while doing other stuff
[12:44] <mdke> ;)
[12:47] <mdke> hmm
[12:48] <mdke> looks like mediawiki isn't packaged for sarge
[12:48] <mdke> oh, or ubuntu
[01:09] <mdke> ok i've found the gnome ug jeffsch 
[01:10] <mdke> its big and v complicated
[01:10] <jeffsch> is it split across a bunch of files?
[01:10] <mdke> yeah looks like it
[01:11] <mdke> i'm still checking out the enormous cvs right now
[01:11] <mdke> all the languages have their own screenshots
[01:11] <mdke> if we use the gnome ug we should figure out a way to use the translations...
[01:11] <mdke> ;)
[01:13] <jeffsch> will it be compatible with rosetta?
[01:13] <mdke> boh
[01:13] <mdke> i have no idea how they organise their translations
[01:14] <mdke> gnome don't like rosetta because it provides no means of pushing translations upstream that by rights should be done originally in rosetta
[01:15] <jeffsch> hmmm... it's getting more and more complicated
[01:15] <mdke> don't worry
[01:15] <mdke> most of the translations are probably years old
[01:15] <mdke> the italian ones were committed 2 years ago
[01:16] <mdke> ditto fr
[01:17] <jeffsch> yikes! it must make life a little difficult for new user trying to learn gnome desktop
[01:17] <mdke> yep
[01:18] <mdke> so what do you think we should do with this gnome ug
[01:18] <mdke> jeffsch, ^^
[01:18] <jeffsch> add in the complication that ubuntu desktop is slightly different than gnome desktop
[01:19] <jeffsch> i think i need to read it more before knowing for sure what to do
[01:19] <jeffsch> in the end, we should do whatever is best for ubuntu users
[01:19] <mdke> yeah
[01:20] <mdke> jeffsch, i might put it in svn and we can look at it and then discuss at next meeting
[01:20] <mdke> what do you think?
[01:20] <jeffsch> sounds good
[01:20] <mdke> just the en ;)
[01:20] <mdke> i'll put it in teamstuff
[01:20] <jeffsch> yeah. and gnome calls en C for some reason
[01:20] <mdke> yes
[01:22] <jeffsch> i think we should worry less about what we can push upstream, and more about the ubuntu user experience
[01:23] <mdke> agreed
[01:26] <mdke> jeffsch, should I include the screenshots in my commit? might make a quite large
[01:27] <jeffsch> i would include them. people need to see that they are not ubuntu
[01:28] <mdke> ouch ok here goes
[01:29] <jeffsch> gnome docs try to avoid screenshots anyway, so it shouldn't be too large
[01:29] <jeffsch> at least in theory :)
[01:29] <mdke> ok here it comes
[01:37] <mdke> phew
[01:38] <jeffsch> hmm... not too bad... only 5M
[01:38] <mdke> heh
[01:38] <mdke> takes a while on 128 upload
[01:39] <jeffsch> changelog says last update was 2004-08-27
[01:40] <jeffsch> but nothing substantial since 2004-04-20
[01:41] <mdke> last cvs commit was 3 months ago
[01:41] <mdke> i think all he did was probably to put his name on the top and change it to gnome 2.10 ;)
[01:41] <mdke> that's WRONG man
[01:43] <jeffsch> hey... there's two pdf files in there for a total of 2.8M
[01:45] <mdke> sorry
[01:45] <mdke> i'll remove em shall I?
[01:45] <jeffsch> one is gnome 2.2 and the other gnome 2.4
[01:45] <jeffsch> not your fault!
[01:45] <jeffsch> yeah, remove em
[01:46] <jeffsch> cuts the download in half
[01:46] <mdke> done
[01:47] <mdke> thanks for pointing that out
[01:57] <mdke> jeffsch, there is a lot of good stuff in there
[02:04] <jeffsch> yeah, there is.
[02:05] <jeffsch> how much work you think it would take to make it suitable for ubuntu (before integrating the stuff we already have in the current ug)?
[02:05] <mdke> i have no idea
[02:06] <mdke> i'm thinking quite a bit
[02:06] <mdke> but your method would inspire a better structure for the finished document, our userguide is not well structured right now
[02:06] <jeffsch> it might be a good learning experience to go through line by line, making sure the menus all point to the right place, and so on
[02:07] <jeffsch> people would learn the docbook tags
[02:07] <mdke> it depends really on whether anyone is willing to put the work in
[02:07] <jeffsch> it would be tedious, that's for sure
[02:07] <mdke> btw did you ever incorporate the tags from gtaylor into the styleguide?
[02:07] <jeffsch> not yet
[02:16] <jeffsch> i gotta run. cya
[02:16] <mdke> bye mate
[03:49] <jsgotangco> hmm its all kde
[03:49] <jsgotangco> the beginnings of a vendor drop...
[03:57] <mdke> hi jsgotangco 
[03:57] <mdke> good weekend?
[03:58] <jsgotangco> aye we just arrived last night
[03:58] <jsgotangco> so i wasn't able to check out the happenings over in ubuntu land
[03:58] <jsgotangco> seems the natives have been quiet lately
[03:58] <mdke> arrived where?
[03:59] <jsgotangco> oh we went home to my folks' old farm we haven't been going there lately
[04:00] <mdke> nice
[04:00] <mdke> how does one do an xinclude?
[04:00] <mdke> to include part of another document
[04:01] <mdke> hmm
[04:02] <mdke> maybe it isn't possible with another document that isn't in our repo lol
[04:03] <jsgotangco> i think you have to declare it first in the DTD
[04:04] <mdke> i wanted to include the update-manager in the userguide
[04:04] <jsgotangco> ahhh you've been busy
[04:05] <jsgotangco> BTW
[04:05] <jsgotangco> how was edubuntu
[04:06] <jsgotangco> (i almost forgot about it)
[04:06] <mdke> it was really cool
[04:06] <mdke> i met some cool people
[04:06] <mdke> and learnt some interesting things
[04:06] <jsgotangco> who was there?
[04:07] <mdke> mdz, mark, henrik, ogra from ubuntu
[04:07] <mdke> colin applegate and paul flint
[04:07] <jsgotangco> ah so colin was there
[04:07] <jsgotangco> (don't know paul flint)
[04:07] <mdke> he's an incredibly loud american
[04:08] <jsgotangco> aren't they all
[04:08] <mdke> some people from guadalinex, skolelinux and some uk folk in education
[04:08] <jsgotangco> *grin*
[04:08] <mdke> heh colin was the opposite
[04:08] <jsgotangco> guadalinex..hrmmm...
[04:08] <jsgotangco> let me guess
[04:08] <mdke> it is an incredible project
[04:08] <jsgotangco> javier carranza?
[04:08] <mdke> they have 200,000 installs on school computers
[04:08] <mdke> that wasn't the guy i think
[04:09] <jsgotangco> did you get to talk to mdz
[04:09] <mdke> a little
[04:09] <jsgotangco> ahh
[04:09] <mdke> i was really blown away by him
[04:09] <mdke> and mark too
[04:09] <jsgotangco> is ogra leading the project
[04:09] <mdke> i believe so
[04:09] <mdke> he was also real nice
[04:10] <mdke> ah also Jane was there
[04:10] <jsgotangco> JaneW!
[04:10] <jsgotangco> err so what happened?
[04:10] <mdke> i only went on the first day
[04:11] <mdke> it was a lot of brainstorming and people talking about their experiences with school based projects
[04:11] <mdke> pretty interesting
[04:11] <mdke> you'll find stuff on the wiki, i believe Jane was putting it up as she took notes
[04:12] <jsgotangco> hmm ok
[04:12] <jsgotangco> did elkner come?
[04:13] <mdke> nope he didn't make it
[04:14] <jsgotangco> oh too bad he's a really niceguy
[04:15] <mdke> anyway i was really impressed by the Ubuntu guys
[04:15] <mdke> they are very smart and also friendly
[04:15] <mdke> the actual conference was a little disorganised but in general it was probably quite useful to all concerned, at least on day 1
[04:18] <jsgotangco> oh edubuntu was incredibly specific
[04:18] <jsgotangco> we were a riot in sydney
[04:18] <jsgotangco> im getting lost in our svn
[04:18] <jsgotangco> hrrmm
[04:19] <mdke> whereabouts?
[04:19] <mdke> or i forgot
[04:20] <mdke> jordi was there
[04:20] <mdke> i think that is everyone
[04:21] <jsgotangco> jordi!
[04:21] <jsgotangco> well i haven't been doing any useful svn stuff lately
[04:22] <jsgotangco> that's why i guess i am lost
[04:22] <jsgotangco> i have been looking into scrollkeeper
[04:22] <mdke> oh awesome
[04:22] <mdke> how is it going?
[04:22] <jsgotangco> oh its like a jungle out there
[04:23] <jsgotangco> its basically similar to comparing two tables
[04:23] <jsgotangco> except the other table is incredibly overflowing with stuff
[04:25] <mdke> btw I emailed the -devel and -users lists reporting on the meeting, just to try and keep the ubuntu world up to date on our group
[04:25] <mdke> hopefully we can attract more contributors
[04:25] <jsgotangco> i should have done that before, but that thanks
[04:25] <mdke> np
[04:26] <jsgotangco> hmmm great hoary doesn't detect my old hp printer
[04:26] <jsgotangco> i guess it doesnt like usb printers yet
[04:39] <mdke> hmm
[04:43] <jsgotangco> its strange everytime you send to the list, it requires authorization
[04:45] <mdke> me?
[04:45] <mdke> that is because I am thick and keep sending from the wrong address
[04:46] <mdke> i keep cancelling the posts though as soon as I realise
[04:46] <mdke> so you shouldn't have to moderate them
[04:47] <jsgotangco> yeah well it still informs me anyway
[04:47] <mdke> it won't happen again, i've subscribed both addresses now
[04:47] <mdke> oh
[04:47] <mdke> i don't set that for ubuntu-it
[04:50] <mdke> hey we've made no 1 on distrowatch for last 12 months now too
[04:50] <mdke> awesome
[04:50] <jsgotangco> not bad for a distro that is yet to reach 1 year old
[04:51] <mdke> quite
[04:52] <mdke> ok bed time
[04:52] <mdke> 4 am
[04:54] <jsgotangco> hmmm an underwater volcano is erupting near iwo jima
[04:54] <jsgotangco> nice
[04:54] <jsgotangco> must be Godzilla
[07:21] <Trace> Hello, I am very intrested in hardware detection of Ubuntu, can someone tell me where i can find such doc?
[08:45] <froud> African Greetings
[08:47] <jsgotangco> froud, hi
[08:47] <froud> waz up jsgotangco 
[08:47] <jsgotangco> nothing much, sorry i'm not doing that much svn work lately, i'm currently lost at it, but i'm doing stuff on scrollkeeper
[08:48] <froud> scrollkeeper, why?
[08:49] <jsgotangco> i'm digging at the stuff not being used at all or disorganized
[08:49] <froud> ok whatever tickles your fancy
[08:50] <froud> have you seen the new kde system settings
[08:50] <froud> replaces kcontrol in kubuntu
[08:50] <jsgotangco> yeah
[08:50] <jsgotangco> im totally lost at it
[08:50] <jsgotangco> atm
[08:51] <froud> http://lnix.net/~froud/kquickguide/C/ch03s07.html
[08:52] <froud> why lost?
[08:52] <jsgotangco> what KDE is this?
[08:52] <jsgotangco> KDE 3.5?
[08:53] <froud> Kubuntu Breezy
[08:53] <froud> KControl is dropped for kde-systemsettings
[08:53] <froud> it is not part of standard kde
[08:54] <jsgotangco> hmm probably because i haven't been using kubuntu lately, reason why i am lost
[08:55] <froud> no I had to compile it and install it, Kubuntu breezy is not ready yet.
[08:55] <froud> Riddell did a good job with it, I think
[08:56] <jsgotangco> hmmm isn't it too early to do the compiling thing and breezy-fying the doc
[08:57] <froud> yes and no. Things like this need to start early or we will not have enough time later
[08:57] <jsgotangco> as much as i'd like to do more stuff (which i believe im capable of), im so limited with hardware atm
[08:58] <froud> I use removable hard drives on some of the lab machines
[08:58] <froud> well school run c u laters
[09:24] <jsgotangco> welcome back
[09:25] <froud> yep
[09:25] <froud> canged hosts
[09:25] <froud> changed
[09:28] <jsgotangco> ahh i thought you were in a school run
[09:28] <froud> yes it was
[09:29] <froud> then I leave my laptop and the louge and move to my home office
[09:33] <jsgotangco> thats nice
[12:52] <mdke> _froud_, thanks for the email
[12:52] <mdke> which of the two solutions would you consider to be more desirable?
[12:52] <mdke> sounds like vendor drop is probably more satisfactory
[12:53] <_froud_> vendor drop in vendpr/gnome/
[12:53] <froud> vendor/gnome/
[12:54] <mdke> yeah
[12:54] <mdke> froud, what did you do with njal's patch? i had already applied it yesterday
[12:55] <mdke> did he send another?
[12:55] <froud> Hmm yes there was another
[12:55] <froud> I applied it
[12:55] <mdke> it's all deletes
[12:56] <froud> no
[12:56] <mdke> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc-commits/2005-July/000882.html
[12:56] <froud> --- userguide.xml(revision 1341)
[12:56] <froud> +++ userguide.xml(working copy)
[12:56] <froud> @@ -1980,6 +1980,15 @@
[12:56] <froud>               directorys (see above), folder newfolder should be
[12:56] <froud>               in the list.</para>
[12:56] <froud>           </listitem>
[12:56] <froud> +
[12:56] <froud> +  <listitem>
[12:56] <froud> +  <para>Change Directorys: - cd (/directory/location)</para>
[12:56] <froud> +  <para>This is a simple enough command cd (Change Directory) typing cd on it's own will take you to your home (/home/yourusername) directory, sometimes known as ~. To get to the new folder you created type cd ~/newfolder (remember that ~ is a shortcut, nothing wrong with shortcuts).</para>
[12:57] <froud> +  </listitem>
[12:57] <froud> +  <listitem>
[12:57] <froud> +  <para>Remove Directorys: - rm -rf (directoryname)</para>
[12:57] <mdke> no need to do massive paste's like that!
[12:57] <froud> +      <para>Again the command is simple, to remove the newfolder type cd ~ (just to get you outside of the directory before you delete it) now type rm -rf newfolder, how do you know it is gone? Simple, type your prefered command for viewing directorys, is newfolder there? It shouldnt be. Congratulations you have used the basic file management functions in the terminal.</para>
[12:57] <froud> +  </listitem>
[12:57] <froud>         </itemizedlist>
[12:57] <froud>         <!-- To here... more work needs done-->
[12:57] <froud>       </sect1>
[12:57] <mdke> I'm talking about a totally different revision
[12:57] <mdke> revision 1347
[12:57] <mdke> all that section above is deleted now
[12:58] <mdke> check the link i posted above, it shows the revision
[12:59] <mdke> i think what has happened is that you applied the patch that i had already applied
[01:01] <froud> Argh! when you patch send mail to list otherwise we will collide
[01:01] <mdke> i did
[01:01] <froud> just role back my version
[01:01] <mdke> i'm pretty sure
[01:01] <froud> I did not get message
[01:01] <mdke> perhaps I sent it accidentally only to njal
[01:02] <mdke> hmm
[01:02] <mdke> how does on roll back?
[01:02] <mdke> on/one
[01:04] <mdke> froud, still here?
[01:06] <froud> mdke: read http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.1/svn-book.html#svn-ch-4
[01:06] <froud> search for "Undoing Changes"
[01:06] <froud> bit busy just now
[01:07] <froud> working on deadlines
[01:07] <mdke> cool thanks
[01:12] <mdke> froud, ok I've rolled back
[01:12] <mdke> sorry about that
[01:12] <froud> cheer now you know how :-)
[01:12] <froud> no my fault I should have checked
[01:12] <mdke> both our faults
[01:12] <mdke> if you have time later you have to teach me vendor drops
[01:12] <froud> Ok I won't argue ;-)
[01:13] <froud> but good if you know about merging and branching
[01:13] <froud> helps if other learn this stuff
[01:13] <mdke> yes I've bookmarked that document
[01:32] <mdke> http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/update-manager/help/C/ <-- froud is that the right one?
[01:32] <froud> yep
[01:33] <froud> has last patch from jeffsch 
[01:34] <mdke> wicked am adding to svn now
[01:36] <mdke> oh no i'm not
[01:36] <mdke> vendor is outside trunk?
[01:36] <froud> yes
[01:36] <froud> you will find vendor/gnome
[01:36] <mdke> bugger
[01:37] <mdke> i only have trunk right now
[01:37] <froud> checkout vendor relative to your trunk
[01:37] <froud> svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/vendor vendor
[01:37] <mdke> from where do i type that?
[01:38] <mdke> home?
[01:38] <froud> where is you ubuntu-docs/
[01:38] <mdke> in home
[01:38] <froud> so cd ubuntu-docs
[01:39] <froud> when you ls you should see trunk/
[01:39] <froud> then do svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/vendor vendor
[01:39] <mdke> no when I ls I see the contents of trunk
[01:39] <froud> btw when you bringin the doc dont bring in any .cvs folders
[01:39] <mdke> i won't
[01:39] <froud> and use svn import not svn commit
[01:39] <mdke> ok
[01:39] <froud> oh dear
[01:40] <froud> you have trunk in ubuntu-docs
[01:40] <mdke> yes
[01:40] <froud> Hmm
[01:40] <mdke> because that is what it says on the StepbyStepRepositories page
[01:40] <froud> yes
[01:40] <mdke> i just followed that
[01:40] <froud> svn for dummies
[01:40] <froud> not that you are a dummy
[01:40] <mdke> fair enough
[01:41] <mdke> how come vendor isn't in trunk?
[01:41] <froud> make a new folder for your docs
[01:41] <froud> then
[01:41] <mdke> ok done
[01:41] <froud> svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos {thatfolder}
[01:42] <froud> that will give you branches/ trunk/ tags/ and vendor/
[01:42] <froud> its big
[01:42] <mdke> i bet
[01:42] <mdke> ok will do that
[01:42] <froud> but  that is everything to do with the project
[01:42] <mdke> how come vendor isn't in trunk tho?
[01:43] <froud> that's the way svn repos's are structured
[01:43] <froud> you should read more from svn book :-)
[01:43] <mdke> does it mean that people who don't have vendor checked out can't build html documents that use vendor?
[01:44] <froud> yes
[01:44] <mdke> that is a shame
[01:44] <froud> that is one of the downsides
[01:44] <mdke> can't we put vendor inside trunk?
[01:44] <froud> of a v drop
[01:44] <froud> you can, but
[01:44] <froud> best keep a v drop in vendor and then if you want copy it to trunk/gnome
[01:45] <mdke> how come?
[01:45] <froud> you see you will have to have a checkout of the upstream outside your svn wc
[01:45] <froud> so you can update that copy and diff changes into the svn wc vendor drop
[01:46] <mdke> i don't get it :/
[01:46] <froud> for example I have all kde svn in seperate workspace
[01:46] <froud> and I have a copy of kde docs in our my copy of ubuntu-doc svn
[01:46] <froud> I merge changes upstream to the ubuntu copy and commit them
[01:47] <mdke> yes i see
[01:47] <mdke> but why can't that be done to trunk/vendor?
[01:47] <froud> this is why baz is a better system :-)
[01:47] <froud> You want vendor to remain as printine to upstream as possible
[01:47] <froud> pristine
[01:47] <mdke> can't changes be merged to trunk/vendor and committed? that way it still remains identical to upstream
[01:48] <froud> yes, but trunk is where the whole world hacks
[01:48] <froud> strange stuff happens in trunk
[01:48] <mdke> i haven't noticed that ;)
[01:48] <froud> in trunk you will lose control of the vendor drop
[01:49] <froud> better keep it out of site and mae people know that they do not change that unless it is gnome (upstream) specific
[01:49] <froud> and if they do change in vendor/ then that patch must be moved upstream
[01:50] <mdke> hmm
[01:50] <froud> so before you patch a vendor you must also merge changes in upstream into the drop
[01:50] <froud> but now that you have a v drop
[01:50] <mdke> but it also means that most people don't see the xinclude material when they view the document
[01:50] <froud> you can XInclude or XPointer to those docs
[01:50] <froud> yes
[01:50] <froud> only when they have the vendor/
[01:50] <mdke> that is really bad :/
[01:51] <froud> that is why you can then make an svn copy from vendor/gnome to trunk/gnome/upstream
[01:51] <mdke> froud, don't the xinclude and xpointer links have to be changed then?
[01:51] <froud> that way they will not need vendor/ and you can maintain the pristine quality of the vendor/
[01:52] <froud> yes instead of refing the ../../../../vendor/
[01:52] <froud> they refer to the copy in trunk/gnome/upstream/
[01:53] <froud> When I start using the kde drop I will make a copy of the kde v drop in trunk/kde/upstream
[01:53] <froud> I dont want people hacking the vendor/
[01:53] <mdke> and the links you make in the documents will be to trunk/kde/upstream?
[01:53] <mdke> or to vendor?
[01:53] <froud> the trunk
[01:53] <mdke> ok i see, that has reassured me
[01:54] <froud> Also I want canges in the trunk/kde/upstream to be selectively merged into /vendor/kde/
[01:54] <froud> then and only then will I patch and move the changes upstream
[01:54] <mdke> yes i see that
[01:54] <froud> capish
[01:54] <mdke> si
[01:55] <mdke> thanks froud 
[01:55] <mdke> now to check out repos
[01:55] <froud> so you must hold a string hand on what people do to your trunk/copy of the upstream
[01:55] <froud> s/string/strong
[01:55] <froud> remember no ubuntu stuff in there
[01:56] <froud> if  they do, shoot them
[01:56] <mdke> yes
[01:56] <froud> only upstream specific stuff
[01:56] <mdke> but if they do stuff, it is not hard to delete it and revert back to the upstream from vendor/
[01:56] <froud> and remember that at gnome you must talk to the maintainer
[01:56] <froud> correct
[01:56] <mdke> talk to the maintainer?
[01:56] <mdke> y?
[01:56] <froud> but you dont want to be working at reverting their changes
[01:57] <mdke> true
[01:57] <froud> yes maintainer for update manager is me
[01:57] <froud> so go for it
[01:57] <mdke> but why is it necessary to talk to the maintainer?
[01:57] <froud> but for gug you cant just make changes
[01:57] <froud> gnome policy
[01:57] <froud> no changes without mainter
[01:58] <froud> kde is diff, everyone can change a kde doc
[01:58] <mdke> changes to upstream you mean?
[01:58] <mdke> or changes in our docs?
[01:58] <froud> but in gnome, you speak to the maintainer, upstream
[01:58] <mdke> i don't intend to make any changes upstream, for a start I don't have access to their cvs
[01:59] <froud> speaking to the gnome doc mainter is good idea. if they say yes, then you know that the patch will be accepted. if they say no, not a good idea, then you wont waste time working on a patch that wont be acepted
[01:59] <mdke> oh if we do patches, naturally I will speak to them
[01:59] <mdke> but right now it is just a question of using them
[02:00] <froud> I have access, but must first speak to mainaters
[02:00] <froud> rules, geeze they suck
[02:01] <froud> now if mainters dont respond
[02:01] <froud> just contact gnome-docs mailing list
[02:01] <mdke> yes but as I say, i don't intend to do patches right now
[02:01] <froud> if no response, I will patch as silence will be considered consent :-)
[02:02] <froud> sure, just so you know
[02:02] <mdke> yep
[02:02] <froud> the silence is consent thing
[02:02] <mdke> that is the worst concept ever
[02:02] <froud> you will find it it the only way to move forward in some cases
[02:02] <froud> well it works in FOSS
[02:03] <mdke> not for me
[02:03] <froud> well then you will find progress slow going :-)
[02:03] <froud> see what I have done in 1 week with kubuntu
[02:03] <froud> I speak to our list and if people have no comment I go for it
[02:04] <froud> I give enough time for the timezones to read and respond
[02:04] <froud> if no response, proceed
[02:04] <froud> otherwise you will get stuck
[02:05] <froud> know it does not sound nice, but sometimes it must be the way
[02:05] <froud> if you want to make progress you must do
[02:05] <mdke> well everyone works differently
[02:05] <froud> if people don't contribute comments you must just do
[02:05] <mdke> it depends what it is
[02:05] <froud> you will get much more done that way
[02:06] <mdke> you know my views on this
[02:06] <froud> well it's up to you :-)
[02:06] <froud> yes
[02:06] <mdke> ok thanks for your help with the repos
[02:06] <froud> but as you can see, the progress I make is substantial
[02:06] <mdke> enough of this please
[02:06] <froud> Oh no
[02:28] <mpt> mdke: ping
[02:28] <mdke> hi mpt 
[02:29] <mpt> I'd like to actually start doing some writing
[02:29] <mdke> cool
[02:29] <mpt> of Ubuntu Help
[02:29] <mdke> anything in mind?
[02:29] <mdke> aha
[02:29] <mpt> I've chatted with shaunm of gnome-docs fame
[02:29] <mpt> so yelp will default to opening a particular book
[02:30] <mpt> rather than defaulting to a hierarchy of software
[02:30] <mpt> for vanilla Gnome, that will be the Gnome User Guide
[02:30] <mpt> Does the GUG have any relationship to any of the docs listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects ?
[02:30] <mdke> the gnome user guide was last updated about a year ago
[02:31] <mpt> sure, so a lot of changes will need to go upstream as well
[02:31] <mdke> you will find a copy of it in teamstuff/
[02:31] <mpt> I'm under no illusions about the amount of stuff that will need rewriting, no matter what the starting point is
[02:31] <mdke> mpt, perhaps you can contribute to the thread on the mailing list about it?
[02:32] <mdke> as far as yelp opening a particular book, IMO that decision should be one that the team should take together
[02:33] <mdke> we have been thinking about how to use the gnome user guide, if at all. there is a thread on the mailing list and jeffsch has some ideas about it too
[02:33] <mpt> ok
[02:33] <mdke> that's why I put it in our repo so we can look at it and talk about it
[02:33] <mpt> ah, that's why it's not in my local tree
[02:34] <mpt> which I last updated, um, a month or so ago :-)
[02:34] <mdke> i put it in yesterday
[02:34] <mpt> ok, so if maybe 80~90% of my changes would be suitable for upstream
[02:34] <mpt> who would be in charge of merging such changes into the Ubuntu version?
[02:35] <mpt> anyone who put their hand up?
[02:35] <mdke> well it will come into Ubuntu in the normal way, through debian I suppose
[02:36] <mpt> As for the decision, I think it's being made upstream
[02:36] <mdke> if we decide to use the GUG in our docs, then it will depend on how we do it
[02:36] <mdke> well the decision on what yelp displays is one that is taken at a distro level is it not?
[02:37] <mdke> especially if our documentation is going to be in a different format (html), yelp will have to be instructed accordingly
[02:38] <jdub> mdke: dude ->
[02:38] <jdub> http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/gnome/gnome-user-docs
[02:38] <jdub> gnome2-user-docs package will be done by seb for ubuntu, most likely
[02:39] <mdke> jdub, what is that link?
[02:39] <jdub> mdke: cvs commits for the user guide
[02:40] <mdke> jdub, is it different to http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/gnome-user-docs/gnome2-user-guide/C/ ?
[02:41] <jdub> why ask me when you could read the page?
[02:41] <mdke> jdub, it looks different to me, so that's why I asked
[02:41] <jdub> you're looking at a different directory of the same cvs module
[02:41] <mdke> okay
[02:42] <mdke> jdub, but I assume your reason for posting me the link was to show that the userguide is not out of date?
[02:42] <jdub> mostly that it has been touched more recently than a year
[02:42] <jdub> 3 months is a particularly telling period, too
[02:43] <mdke> jdub, yes, the changelog shows that a couple of minor changes have been made since a year ago, but essentially what has happened is that the document is a 2.6 guide, with a 2.10 label
[02:43] <mdke> ask seb what he thinks of it
[02:44] <mdke> it refers to applications:// and menu editing via right click
[02:45] <mdke> but I agree, that page shows a lot more edits than appear in the changelog that I'd previously looked at
[02:45] <jdub> (check the diffs, they're not that minor_
[02:46] <mdke> am looking now
[02:46] <jdub> (the final one is the only one not in ubuntu)
[02:46] <jdub> anyway, it's definitely less than a year, and on par with release dates
[02:47] <mdke> ok whatever, if you're happy with it, then that is fine by me
[02:47] <mdke> if its being actively developed, then I will file bugs for the stuff that I consider to be out of date
[02:49] <mpt> arg, it's GFDL
[02:51] <jdub> mdke: it's not without flaws, but it has had recent attention
[02:52] <mdke> okay well the thread on the mailing list is there if you guys have ideas about how we should use the GUG
[02:53] <mdke> mpt, it may be that your idea is similar to jeffsch 's
[03:00] <mpt> mdke, I don't see any messages from jeffsch in that thread
[03:01] <mdke> mpt, no he hasn't sent any
[03:01] <mdke> he expressed his idea yesterday in irc
[03:01] <froud> mdke: jeffsch wants to for the code
[03:01] <mdke> erm
[03:01] <mdke> pardon?
[03:02] <froud> jeffsch: wanted to for GDP code for the gug
[03:02] <mdke> to for?
[03:02] <froud> but if jdub has an ubuntu version of gug then better to use that
[03:03] <mdke> ubuntu version?
[03:03] <froud> jeffsch: idea was to take the gug and rework it to uug
[03:03] <mdke> yes...
[03:03] <mdke> i was here
[03:04] <mdke> ah you mean fork
[03:04] <mdke> gotcha
[03:04] <froud> is that new version ubuntu specific?
[03:04] <mdke> that is not a new version
[03:04] <froud> ak more recent version
[03:04] <mdke> no its the same version
[03:04] <froud> is it gnome or ubuntu
[03:05] <froud> hmm we're not understanding each other
[03:05] <mdke> froud, what on earth are you talking about?
[03:05] <mdke> damn
[03:05] <mdke> i mucked up the vendor drop
[03:05] <froud> http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/gnome/gnome-user-docs
[03:05] <froud> is this a more recent version of the gnome doc?
[03:05] <mdke> no
[03:06] <mdke> it is cvs stats
[03:06] <mdke> click on it and you'll see
[03:06] <froud> yes, but  the patches show a more recent version that what you see in cvs
[03:06] <mdke> i asked jdub and he said it was the same
[03:07] <froud> OK
[03:07] <froud> I see
[03:07] <froud> well so longas you can maintain the v drop
[03:07] <froud> you will be ok
[03:07] <froud> and I would not count on the gdp being dead
[03:07] <mdke> i'm not doing a v drop of that, i'm doing one of update-manager
[03:08] <froud> it's been through this type of dead patch before
[03:08] <froud> OK but you put it in teamstuff
[03:08] <froud> not good
[03:08] <froud> the gug
[03:08] <mpt> How do I set an environment variable?
[03:08] <mpt> I used to know that sort of thing, eight years ago
[03:08] <froud> should not be in teamstuff
[03:08] <froud> set
[03:09] <froud> set constant=string
[03:09] <froud> ?
[03:09] <mdke> the GUG is in teamstuff so that people can read it and look at it
[03:09] <mdke> it SHOULD be there
[03:09] <froud> ouch
[03:10] <froud> is that a good idea they can read it upstream
[03:10] <mdke> its not there for use or dropping, it is just for jeffsch and others to play aroudn
[03:10] <mpt> froud: Yes, but I forget where the $ is supposed to go, and what file I put that command in if I want it to be set whenever I log in
[03:10] <froud> better to vendor it or jeffsch can make a branch
[03:10] <froud> mpt: what you doing you want to export to your path
[03:11] <mpt> setting the CVSROOT variable
[03:12] <mdke>  export CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous@anoncvs.gnome.org:/cvs/gnome
[03:12] <mpt> brilliant, thanks
[03:16] <mdke> but the gnome2-user-guide cvs checkout is in teamstuff/ on our repository if you want to look at it
[03:17] <mpt> I don't want to look at it, I want to make a trial patch to see how easy the process is
[03:17] <mdke> okay
[03:17] <mpt> hmm, cvs login tells me I entered the wrong password
[03:17] <mpt> even though I'm anonymous
[03:18] <mdke> what command did you use?
[03:18] <froud> mdke: much better :-) r1351 - in vendor/gnome/update-manager
[03:18] <mpt> mdke: cvs login
[03:18] <mdke> froud, second time lucky ;)
[03:18] <froud> now if the gug could be the same it would be nice
[03:18] <mdke> froud, we haven't decided whether to vendor drop that or not yet
[03:18] <mdke> mpt, cvs -z3 co gnome-user-docs/gnome2-user-guide/C should be enough
[03:19] <mpt> aha, now it's working
[03:19] <mpt> yes, the instructions were badly written
[03:19] <mpt> suggesting that login was necessary even if you were anonymous
[03:19] <mdke> mpt, you were using the GDP guide?
[03:20] <mpt> I didn't know there was one
[03:20] <mpt> I'm using http://developer.gnome.org/tools/cvs.html
[03:20] <mdke> mpt, you're using the right one
[03:21] <mdke> froud, my svn up isn't working now i did that import
[03:21] <mdke> ok fixed it
[03:22] <mpt> nooooo, I don't want the Gnome User Guide for Gnome 1.4 in Spanish
[03:23] <froud> mdke: hmm
[03:23] <froud> works here
[03:23] <mdke> mpt, you're checking out the whole tree?
[03:24] <mdke> hardcore ;)
[03:24] <mdke> mpt, cvs -z3 co gnome-user-docs/gnome2-user-guide/C 
[03:24] <froud> mdke: you must now delete the folder and then do svn up
[03:24] <mdke> froud, yeah that's what I did :)
[03:24] <froud> remembe ryou use dimport
[03:24] <mdke> its working now
[03:24] <froud> ok cool
[03:24] <mpt> mdke: Yes, I wasn't following your instructions closely enough
[03:25] <froud> right now I have it too :-)
[03:25] <mdke> mpt, otherwise you get all the screenshots for each language ;)
[03:32] <mpt> help shouldn't have screenshots in it anyway
[03:32] <mpt> but yeah, I have just the C-ish version now
[03:32] <froud> mdke: see trunk/kde for example if vendor drp copy
[03:33] <froud> trunk/kde/upstream/kde
[03:33] <froud> svn up
[03:33] <mdke> cool!
[03:33] <mdke> nice one
[03:33] <jdub> mpt: (the guide-like documents and help infrastructure as they currently stand benefit from including screenshots; when we get to context/topic oriented help, i'll totally agree.)
[03:33] <froud> if you can follow the same convention, then it will be easy for users to follow
[03:34] <froud> jdub: yes agreed, books have screenshots help does not :-)
[03:34] <mdke> convention?
[03:34] <froud> unless absolutely needed
[03:34] <mdke> can i just svn cp to trunk/gnome/upstream/gnome?
[03:35] <froud> bingo
[03:35] <jdub> froud: that's not the most useful way of describing it at the moment.
[03:35] <froud> I suggest making the extra gnome folder since you may have other upstreams
[03:35] <mdke> ok
[03:35] <froud> jdub: ok
[03:35] <froud> jdub: however you want to describe it
[03:36] <froud> jdub: but as general convention making limited use of screeshots in help is good practice
[03:36] <froud> jdub: for manuals it is different
[03:37] <jdub> my comment answers that (there is no distinction at the moment)
[03:37] <froud> correct at present there is not
[03:39] <mdke> froud, ok i just did the svn copy, did i do it right?
[03:40] <froud> yes
[03:40] <mdke> yay
[03:41] <froud> shit I hav eto install XP on a box and I have lost my license keys
[03:41] <froud> anyone know where I can get a key?
[03:42] <mdke> erm
[03:42] <mdke> XP is ebil
[03:43] <froud> work sometime customers give me requirements to doc on windoze
[03:44] <mdke> i guess you can ring em up and ask for your licence key 
[03:45] <froud> and how do they know what key came with the box?
[03:45] <mdke> i don't know
[03:45] <froud> shit and I dont have another widoze xp from which to copy it
[03:45] <mdke> maybe your vendor is the best bet if its an oem
[03:46] <froud> he he this is africa dude
[03:47] <froud> http://www.seriall.com/mostpopular.html
[03:47] <froud> the internet you gotta love it
[04:20] <froud> only works for xsl:fo and then you need an xslfo processor that supports floats
[04:20] <froud> xep or xsl formatter will do it
[04:20] <froud> but not fop
[04:21] <mpt>     <mediaobject>
[04:21] <mpt>       <imageobject>
[04:21] <mpt>         <imagedata fileref="figures/lockscreen_icon.png" format="PNG"/>
[04:21] <mpt>       </imageobject>
[04:21] <mpt>     </mediaobject>
[04:21] <mpt> I've already removed <screenshot> and <textobject> from that, which were silly
[04:21] <mpt> It's just a little icon, it should be floated to the side
[04:21] <froud> not really silly
[04:22] <froud> depends on the case
[04:22] <mpt> I'm talking about this particular case
[04:22] <froud> the text object is good
[04:22] <mpt> For perhaps 10% of illustrations, <textobject> would be useful for blind users etc
[04:22] <froud> when no image is found the text object value is displayed
[04:22] <froud> yes
[04:22] <froud> and for users using lynx
[04:23] <mpt> But in this case, if the illustration is not available, the best possible replacement is nothing at all
[04:23] <froud> ok
[04:23] <mpt> The doc is much more pleasant+sensible without any replacement text than it would be with any replacement text you or I might think of
[04:23] <froud> is the image inline to the text or in a block
[04:23] <mpt> It's on a line by itself
[04:24] <mpt> That's what I'm trying to change
[04:24] <froud> block then
[04:24] <mpt> yes
[04:24] <froud> what are the parents
[04:24] <mpt> I pasted them all
[04:24] <mpt> (now that I've removed <screenshot>)
[04:24] <froud> parents of the mediaobject
[04:24] <froud> what are they now

[04:25] <mpt> and above that, <chapter>
[04:27] <froud> mpt: http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/FigureFloats.html
[04:27] <froud> but as I said it only works for xslfo
[04:28] <froud> perhaps the new stylesheets for html have fixed that
[04:28] <froud> but last I used our stylesheets it did not
[04:29] <melodie> mdke: if you remember the burning problem and doc question I came for about one week ago
[04:29] <melodie> ?
[04:29] <melodie> I wanted to tell you I solved it :)
[04:30] <froud> mpt: oh and as far as I know you should have a figure parent
[04:30] <mpt> I love how yelp crashes on any XML error
[04:30] <froud> <figure float="right">
[04:31] <mpt> Draconian error handling at its most extreme :-)
[04:31] <froud>     		<title></title>
[04:31] <froud>     		<mediaobject>
[04:31] <froud>     			<imageobject>
[04:31] <froud>     				<imagedata fileref="" format=""/>
[04:31] <froud>     			</imageobject>
[04:31] <froud> 
[04:31] <froud>     		</mediaobject>
[04:31] <froud>     	</figure>
[04:31] <froud> <informalfigure float="right">
[04:31] <froud>     		<mediaobject>
[04:31] <froud>     			<imageobject>
[04:31] <froud>     				<imagedata fileref="" format=""/>
[04:31] <froud>     			</imageobject>
[04:31] <froud> 
[04:31] <froud>     		</mediaobject>
[04:31] <froud>     	</informalfigure>
[04:31] <froud> hope that helps
[04:31] <froud> mpt but you sure yelp supports the floats
[04:32] <froud> I see no support for it in the yelp xsls
[04:32] <mpt> woohoo
[04:32] <mpt> I definitely did have real XML errors there anyway
[04:32] <froud> well my version is a bit behond
[04:37] <mpt> informalfigure, eh
[04:40] <mpt> thanks froud
[04:48] <froud> mpt: http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html
[04:49] <froud> difference between <menuchoice>, <guimenu>, and <guimenuitem>
[04:50] <mpt> O.
[04:50] <mpt> ta
[04:52] <mpt> ah, <menuchoice> is what inserts the arrows
[05:03] <mpt> behind every quirky help file explanation is a usability bug
[05:04] <mpt> For ten points, what is the bug here? "1. Choose Actions Lock Screen.              If that doesnt work, you dont have a screensaver set up. To set up a screensaver, open System Preferences Screensaver, and choose an item from the Mode: menu."
[05:09] <mpt> mdke: "cvs diff -u -p user-guide.xml" produces zero output. What might I be doing wrong?
[05:11] <mpt> oh, wait
[05:45] <mpt> I figured it out
[05:45] <mpt> I was diffing the wrong file
[05:45] <mpt> Well, that was fun