=== mxpxpod [~BryanForb@wuw-ojr3gmca.dybb.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== sjoerd [sjoerd@fire.ipv6.luon.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== ompaul [~ompaul@213-202-165-193.bas503.dsl.esat.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
ompaulwhats the eta on colony 3?12:09
mdkewe only just had colony 212:11
=== usual [~colin@pool-68-236-143-85.alb.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
ompaulmdke, this is true, but august is really close, I was going to wait till after the weekend if it was due out between now and Monday12:13
usualis X borked in breez?12:13
ernstpusual, X is great in breez12:13
seth_ksort of12:13
seth_ktakes some fixing but works fine12:13
usualwhich s it12:13
seth_ki'm running it right now on two machines12:13
usualI get errors about X not exisiting12:13
mdkeusual, did you update?12:14
usualmdke, not today but todays updates for me were nothing but openoffice12:14
usualmdke, I updated yesterday and X went south12:14
=== shwiiing [~shwiiing@dsl-209-126.o-d.tiscali.no] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mdkei think it should be fixed either now or very soon12:14
usualno biggie of course I expect it with the unstable but if there was a fixI would certainly want it :)12:15
seth_kusual: what error do you get?12:15
mdkei think its a sym link needed12:15
mdkebut not sure12:15
mdkebest to check bugzilla and see if there is a fix12:15
usualseth_k, not exactly sure at the moment as I am not on that box but it was something along the lines of X can't be found or doesn't exist12:15
seth_kusual: the only problems I'm seeing this week are "X not executable" errors, which can be solved with:12:16
seth_ksudo ln -sf /usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg /etc/X11/X12:16
usuallemme try that12:17
lamontpitti: best SASL/postfix docs are bugs filed against postfix/postfix-tls asking me to automate it, in the debian bts... a couple of them have the steps required... :(12:20
pittilamont: thanks for the hint :-)12:20
pittilamont: so far I successfully converted from exim to postfix on my server12:20
=== lamont misses elmo by ~ 8 minutes, grumbles
=== xhaker [xhaker@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== mrd` [~matthew@c-24-1-63-132.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mrd`Anyone else having problems with linux-image-2.6.12-3-k7?  Whenever I boot it, top shows 80+% of my CPU time being used and powernowd steps up my processor to full speed, but no apps actually seem to be using anywhere near that much CPU time.  linux-image-2.6.12-2-k7 works fine, however.12:48
seth_kmrd`: I'm using that exact version (k7 even), and I'm having issues with my system clock running about 20x too fast12:49
seth_kI went back to 2.6.10 for now12:50
seth_kthe funny thing is my laptop is running 2.6.12 and has no issues12:50
seth_kjust the desktop12:50
mrd`Is the laptop running 2.6.12-3-k7 or a different 2.6.12 kernel?12:51
lamontpitti: and I'm a slacker... it's on my list of things to try to have done for breezy (selfsigned cert for SASL/TLS, config by default, with debconf questions to DTRT)12:51
=== mrd` 's laptop handles 2.6.12-2-k7 fine, just something between that and -3-k7 broke.
seth_koy, true. the laptop is running -68612:51
seth_kthey are both running -312:51
=== mrd` wonders where in bugzilla you report kernel problems.
mrd`There doesn't seem to be a linux-image package.12:52
lamontmrd`: you might try linux-image-386...  there should be a linux-image-k7 as well12:54
mrd`lamont: I don't see anything prefixed with linux-image.12:55
mrd`In Ubuntu's bugzilla.12:56
lamontah, for that you may want to just use linux-source-2.6.12 or so12:56
lamontworst case, you file it against unknown12:56
=== lamont must run
=== mrd` didn't think he saw any linux-source packages either... but I'll look again.
ivoksthat reminds me...12:56
chrissturmisnt the package just "linux"?12:56
ivokswe should configure Maildir/ not mbox for ubuntu12:57
=== mrd` looks for a 'linux' package then.
mrd`Oh, d'oh.12:57
=== mrd` wonders how he missed that.
=== anibal [ams@ns1.mssinc.biz] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== shack\out [shackan@host29-107.pool8257.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== |QuaD- [~QuaD@pcp0011386062pcs.ebrnsw01.nj.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== ahuman01 [~ahuman01@pool-151-197-40-157.phil.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Burgundaviaseb128, services-admin appears to use it own authentication dialog01:25
seb128Burgundavia: right, the desktop is not patched to use gksudo ... I'll fix that01:26
Burgundaviaseb128, cheers01:27
Burgundaviais the us.archive still having md5 sum issues?01:27
seth_kBurgundavia: nalioth says yes01:32
seth_kBurgundavia: I haven't had any recently, but maybe some packages?01:33
seth_kBurgundavia: somebody just had one with audacity as I was typing :P01:34
seth_knalioth reports GB archive also experiencing issues01:35
BurgundaviaI have had no issues with the CA archives01:36
=== sfvt [~sfvt@pool-64-222-117-63.burl.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
seth_ktry Audacity01:38
seth_kCA == US, and somebody just reported that package had a mismatch on US01:38
dokofabbione: OOo2 1.9.113-1ubuntu2 will be built using g++-3.4 on sparc. please retry01:41
=== sebest [~chatzilla@sebest.ovibes.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== niran [~niran@cpe-67-10-213-51.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== mgalvin [~mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mgalvinhey all, has any else noticed this01:50
mgalvinFailed to fetch http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/libs/libsndfile/libsndfile1_1.0.10-2_i386.deb  MD5Sum mismatch01:50
seth_kus mirror is having issues01:51
mgalvinah, ok, thnx01:51
seth_kyou can switch to http://archive.ubuntu.com in /etc/apt/sources.list if you want01:51
seth_ke.g., remove all the "us."01:51
mgalvinat least its not just me01:51
mgalvini will do that for now, thnx01:51
Burgundaviaoh, you can do that01:57
mgalvinah thats wicked slow 3000B/s 10 min to d/l Packages file, ouch01:57
=== shackan [shackan@host56-100.pool8259.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== r0bby2 [~wakawaka@cpe-204-210-133-115.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
pittinight, guys02:03
shackannight pitti boy :D02:04
=== shack\out [shackan@host123-137.pool8255.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== zwnj [~behnam@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== AndyFitz [~andy@nat-pool-brisbane.redhat.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== KaiL_ [KaiL@p548F5B23.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== tiglionabbit [~nick@c-67-171-159-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
tiglionabbithello.  I am not part of development, but may I suggest that there be implemented a way to use the gui file browser with admin privileges in a later version?  Some ubuntu users want to edit their config files using the gui, as they do not know how to use the terminal properly02:30
mrd`Why does the file browser need to run as root to edit config files?02:30
tiglionabbitsomething like an entry in applications -> system tools for "Root File Browser" ( gksudo nautilus )02:31
crimsunthey already can using gksudo $app02:31
tiglionabbitcrimsun: what if they don't know to type that, and do not want to open a terminal?02:31
=== Amaranth [~amaranth@AC8BF933.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
tiglionabbitperhaps better then, add an entry to the right-click menu in nautilus for "Edit as Root" or something?02:31
crimsuntiglionabbit: they can still use the Run menu entry02:32
mrd`That's probably a better choice than running all of nautilus as root.02:32
tiglionabbittrue.  Seveas tells me that running nautilus as root will screw up Xauthority and cause a user to not be able to log in02:33
tiglionabbithm, I suppose run application would work.  I could just advise people to type "gksudo gedit" and the absolute path to the config file02:34
tiglionabbitor just have them open it from gedit.  Anyway thanks02:34
chrissturmit would be cool if i could just drag some file to some folder, nautilus would see that it cannot copy there, and ask if i want to copy with gksudo02:36
=== bddebian [~bddebian@pcp08717033pcs.phnixv01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
tiglionabbitchrissturm: I think what would be the best possible solution is, if there were a way the standard editors like gedit could call gksudo when they reach a permissions problem, rather than just saying it couldn't be written02:37
tiglionabbitbut the root file browser would be good just to be able to create directories and touch files02:38
bddebianStandard editors like nano you mean? ;-P02:39
tiglionabbitgui editors.  If they already can use nano, then they already know how to use the terminal, so there's no problem telling them to sudo that02:39
tiglionabbitI'm talking about waaay newbies02:39
=== bddebian is a waay n00b :-)
chrissturmtiglionabbit, can unix processes sudo themselves, or is it just possible to start new processes as root?02:40
tiglionabbithm, the latter02:40
tiglionabbitwow, I hadn't experimented with gedit.  It doesn't even let you mess with the file at all, does it02:41
chrissturmtiglionabbit, so they would need to copy the file to tmp, and then move it with a new process02:41
=== Am|NickTaken [amaranth@AC8A4A3A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
HrdwrBoBthere is a wrapper for it02:42
HrdwrBoBsudoedit I think02:42
HrdwrBoBit starts $EDITOR iirc02:42
mrd`It would be relatively simple to do something like fork a new process, and exec in that process "gksudo tee $file" and then write your data into that process's stdin.02:42
tiglionabbitoo, sudoedit runs nano for me02:42
mrd`(Though, I don't know if it's possible to tell if/when gksudo succeeded.)02:43
tiglionabbitHmm, perhaps in breezy you could add sudoedit as one of the default context menu items, and set the editor to something gui users would like?02:44
tiglionabbitand also, instead of having the create directory/folder items greyed out, have them call gksudo mkdir and such02:45
HrdwrBoBbetter off to make gedit ask you for sudo02:45
HrdwrBoBrather than a secondary option02:46
=== stub [~stub@203-217-37-199.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel
tiglionabbitand add the $EDITOR to "preferred applications"02:46
HrdwrBoBf.e. [ This file is not editable by you, it's likely this is a system file and editing may change or damage your system. To open it, enter your password and hit ok, to close, hit cancell02:46
=== kl [~kl@p548F5B23.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
tiglionabbitalright, however you want to handle it.  I'm just finding the joy of Ubuntu here, I can actually recommend it to people who prefer to use gui interfaces02:48
danielsKamion: yah, will be fixed in -3502:50
=== Am|NickTaken [~amaranth@ACA3C534.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== luis_ [~louie@c-66-31-46-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
chrissturmwhat can be the reason if xorg throws a signal 11 at startup?02:54
HrdwrBoBbuggy radeon binary drivers02:55
chrissturmit works with my radeon drivers, but on my notebooks i810 it signal 11s02:56
danielschrissturm: you're running dual-head, aren't you?02:56
chrissturmdaniels: nope. strange thing is it works now after i removed xserver-common, and reinstalled it02:59
daniels... errr03:00
Keybukdaniels: why doesn't 3d work on my radeon?  *stamps foot*03:00
danielsKeybuk: because it hates you, and wants you to die03:05
bddebianBrutal group :-)03:06
=== mxpxpod [~bryan@mxpxpod.user] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== aeddan [~aeddan@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== aeddan [~aeddan@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Am|NickTaken [amaranth@AC9CDEF6.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== slomo [~slomo@p5487EF94.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== jsgotangco [~jsg@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Keybukit's all about the CYCLONE03:36
=== Amaranth [amaranth@amaranth.user] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== OddAbe19 [~OddAbe19@pcp02542642pcs.lncstr01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Keybukyou don't believe me?03:38
bddebianKeybuk: I believe EVERYTHING you say ;-)03:46
danielsbddebian: you fool03:46
rob^whats the Java (J2SE) package called in Breezy?03:47
rob^just java-common?03:47
KeybukOnce upon a time at the foot of a great mountain, there was a town where the people known as Happy Folk lived...03:47
wasabirob^, j2se package?03:47
wasabiYou mean a java virtual machine?03:47
wasabiWe have a number.03:47
wasabijava-gcj-compat is what we're going with right now03:48
rob^yes, java virtual machine03:48
rob^for apps03:48
wasabiDepends which app03:48
rob^azureus for one03:48
wasabiWe can't run it.03:48
wasabiGet Sun's.03:48
rob^just need some info for the FAQ03:49
=== bddebian feels no love :-)
wasabiYou mean on a wiki?03:49
rob^no, in the svn repo03:49
wasabiFOr azureus itself?03:49
rob^no, the official ubuntu one03:49
wasabiSomebody made that.03:50
wasabiI don't have an opinion on it at all.03:50
rob^we are rewriting parts of it with the idea that it will be released with Breezy, so I just need to know if any sought of Java VM style package is included or do we still need to download Suns one03:51
=== ikuyaLoqu [~ikuya@gnulinux.good-day.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
tiglionabbitsay, is there any gui way to "Move" or "Copy" admin files?03:53
tiglionabbitor any in plans03:53
=== ealden [~ealden@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
wasabirob^, no Sun JVM package will ever be included.04:02
wasabiUnless Sun changes their license.04:02
wasabiBut we have a number of free alternatives which are rapidly improving. We have Eclipse running.04:02
wasabiAnd work on Azureus is proceeding (you will be able to apt-get install it probably breezy+1)04:02
rob^I will add that people need to download it from sun04:02
wasabiI won't ever personally recommend you download anything from Sun.04:03
wasabiHowever it's an option. :004:03
bddebianWhat about blackdown?04:07
wasabiBlackdown is no differnet from Suns.04:09
wasabiIn fact it is Suns.04:09
bddebianOh. Hmm04:11
rob^does it work?04:13
wasabiNo idea.04:14
=== zwnj [~behnam@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== niran [~niran@cpe-67-10-213-51.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== mgalvin [~mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Arrogance [~aks@CPE00112f96b894-CM001225423850.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== rob^ [~rob@rob-ubuntu.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-devel
danielsKamion: ping04:33
whiprushjdub: ping.04:42
=== wasabi [~wasabi@c-67-174-81-195.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
jdubwhiprush: pong04:45
whiprushI've been playing with the new nautilus side panel thinger. thoughts?04:46
whiprushwrt. what we discussed at UDU?04:46
jdubplaces? yeah. very happy to see it.04:46
=== robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
bddebianAnyone know if us.archive.ubuntu.com has problems?04:51
seth_kit does indeed04:52
seth_kfairly large ones04:52
seth_ki've been recommending a switch from us.archive to archive.04:52
bddebianIt seems this has been ongoing.  What gives?04:52
seth_knote that CA archive is the same machine as US04:52
seth_kdunno what gives04:52
bddebianBetter not tell those Canuks that.. ;-P04:53
robitailleseth_k: for a while (1-2 weeks ago?) us.archive DNS  was pointing to archive. (just after the last set of problems with the mirror).  Obviously that DNS change was reverted at one point...04:56
=== lakin [~lakin@dsl-hill-66-18-228-60-cgy.nucleus.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
seth_krobitaille: thanks for the heads up. what causes the md5 errors?04:58
robitailleI have no idea...04:59
bddebianUsually corrupt package files but I'm not sure that is what's happening here.  Unless the files are getting corrupted on the download?05:00
robitailleInterestingly I just noticed that ca.archive is pointing to archive tonight; not at us.archive as it is usually the case.05:01
robitailleThat explains why the 2   packages I just installed didn't generate any errors05:02
=== jsgotangco [~jsg@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
bddebianHmm, odd05:03
=== sfvt [~sfvt@pool-64-222-117-63.burl.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
danielsgar, xorg is snowballing again :\05:18
danielsending up in one huge release05:19
danielsdaniels@brainfreeze:~/canonical/xorg% debdiff old/xorg_6.8.2-34.dsc xorg_6.8.2-35.dsc | diffstat | tail -105:20
daniels 194 files changed, 1734 insertions(+), 4063 deletions(-)05:20
seth_krelease of doom05:20
danielseven better than that is the post-hoary stat05:21
danielsdaniels@brainfreeze:~/canonical/xorg% debdiff hoary/xorg_6.8.2-10.dsc xorg_6.8.2-35.dsc | diffstat | tail -105:21
daniels 435 files changed, 189075 insertions(+), 36648 deletions(-)05:21
danielswhich isn't counting all the work that's gone on in the external packages05:21
luis_time-based release!05:21
=== luis_ runs
=== niran [~niran@cpe-67-10-213-51.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
danielsluis_: ha05:28
luis_seriously, though, that does help prevent that exact problem05:29
danielsluis_: sure, but even if I upload it a day later that I hope (which may well happen), that's still only been since monday05:30
danielsmodularisation helps more, really05:30
danielsxorg uploads are frigging unwieldy at the moment05:31
danielsand I feel guilty about having done 24 since hoary05:31
calcdaniels: good job with the updates :)05:32
calcdaniels: so is the source itself going to be split out as well?05:33
danielscalc: totally05:33
calcistr something about that with 6.9?05:33
daniels6.9 and 7.0 will release in parallel with the same code05:34
calcah ok05:34
danielsbut 6.9 will be an imake monolith, 7.0 will be autotooled and modular05:34
danielsi've been nibbling at the tree from the bottom05:34
calcoh btw -34 didn't seem to fix the /etc/X11/X symlink it was left dead05:35
calciirc it was pointing to /usr/bin/X11/Xorg05:36
calci manually pointed it at /usr/bin/X11/bin/Xorg05:36
daniels/usr/bin/X11/bin/Xorg is quite obviously broken05:46
daniels/usr/bin/X11 should be pointing at /usr/bin; if it's not, that's a separate issue05:46
infinityThat issue exists because /usr/bin/X11 didn't properly get turned into a symlink, so the ln -s ../bin /usr/bin/X11 landed in the directory, rather than replacing it.05:55
infinity(I really hate thast ln behaviour, BTW... Very inintuitive)05:56
infinity"Of course I wanted a link called "bin" in that directory, thanks!"05:56
infinityI guess it's intuitive from the "behaves like cp and mv" perspective, but who uses ln "as if they were copying a file"?05:58
=== infinity waits for someone to say that they do just that.
bddebianI just do that05:59
bddebianHappy now? :-)05:59
infinitydaniels : Still want me to fix x-common, or have you done so already?05:59
infinitydaniels : I can do it in the next hour or so.06:00
=== `anthony [~anthony@220-253-14-6.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== chris38-home [~Christian@LNeuilly-152-22-2-96.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== davyd [~davyd@cugglephone.madeley.id.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel
danielsinfinity: there's another ULI in ti for you06:13
infinityHot diggity.06:13
danielsinfinity: make it two if you want to finish modularising the server06:14
bddebianULI in ti?  Eeks06:14
daniels'ultimate long island in it'06:14
daniels(incidentally, for shits and giggles, try googling for 'clueless noob', with or without quotes)06:14
infinityI want it finished, but I don't want to finish it. :)06:14
danielsi need to sort it on the weekend06:15
danielsno idea when, thought06:15
bddebiandaniels: Are you trying to tell me something? :-)06:15
danielsbetween stuff on friday night, stuff on saturday afternoon, stuff on saturday night ...06:15
infinitydaniels : Is that my cue to recompile my entire system against a different libc?06:17
danielsinfinity: different libc?06:21
infinitydaniels : The 'clueless noob' -> drepper connection.06:23
danielsoh, right06:24
danielsnot really, just entertaining06:24
danielsthe power of Planets and all that06:24
infinityDoes anything actually install files in /usr/bin/X11?06:39
infinityOh, yay.  xserver-xorg does.  (why?)06:41
danielsnothing in breezy does, no06:41
danielsuhm, not any more.  Contents needs updating.06:42
danielsi fixed that particular brain damage in -34.06:42
infinityAh.  Xorg moved to /usr/bin, then?06:42
daniels(i just zgrepped Contents as well)06:42
danielswell, it's still in /usr/X11R6/bin, but the symlink moved to /usr/bin06:42
infinitySo, why do we even care about having the directory/symlink at all?06:42
danielsfhs, more or less06:43
danielsx shit is defined to be available in /usr/bin/X1106:43
=== mae [~mae@dpc674653178.direcpc.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbionehumpf.. this piece of crap is a catch 2206:52
=== chris38-home2 [~Christian@LNeuilly-152-22-2-96.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel
infinityYeargh.  When did debdiff stop working for native packages?07:05
danielsno keybuk, either07:07
danielsanyone know how to do funky inclusion with automake?07:07
infinitydaniels : http://lucifer.0c3.net/~adconrad/x-common.diff07:07
infinityErm, but ignore debian/bar.07:07
=== infinity goes to remove that.
danielsi need to generate a Makefile with a shell-script at build-time (either ./configure or from within the Makefile), but I can't seem to get an include in07:07
infinity(was a test file)07:08
infinitydaniels : If you're positive nothing should ever be living in /usr/bin/X11 on a user's system, then you can just rm -rf it, but the warning should be harmless if 99.9% of people won't ever see it anyway.07:09
infinity(Have we accidentally created any files in /usr/bin/X11 along the way, other than "bin"?07:10
danielsinfinity: not that I'm aware of -- rm -rf should be safe07:11
danielsbtw, I can't connect to lucifer.  chuck it on rookery, willya?07:11
infinityOh, duh.07:11
infinityUsing an A record with a private address is smart, Adam.  Yes.07:11
maewhat do you all use as a development environment for GTK+ apps07:12
infinityrm -rf is safe from the POV of dpkg (ie: we don't ship any files there), but users may prefer not to lose stuff they dropped there with "make install" at some point.  Hence the warning instead.07:12
danielsinfinity: looks good to me07:13
infinityIf you're pretty sure users won't have shit there anyway, then we can toss it.  Then again, if users wouldn't ever have stuff there, why is it in the FHS? :)07:13
infinity(WHich leads me to believe someone might)07:13
danielsmmm, probably safer just warning and/or bombing07:14
infinityYeah.  I like the warning, since bombing the postinst doesn't really help anyone.07:15
=== daniels giggles.
infinitySo, I'll just upload this.07:15
danielsa shell script that generates a huge chunk of a Makefile, that gets read into a variable in ./configure, and substituted in-place to the generated Makefile07:16
infinityYou're still not sleeping properly, are you?07:16
danielsnever better07:17
infinityWell, shame about your drug habit, then.07:18
danielsworship the crack, dude07:20
=== bytee [~byte@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
danielsgah, it's really not liking these newlines07:21
danielshm, found a slightly less crackful way to master this07:26
=== niran [~niran@cpe-67-10-213-51.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Jimbob [jcape@c-24-14-115-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== HiddenWolf [~hidden@136.2.dynamic.phpg.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== zenrox [~zenrox@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbioneGOT IT !07:50
Lathiatdaniels: xlibmesa-gl-dev: Depends: x11proto-gl-dev but it is not going to be installed07:50
Lathiatdaniels: what do i need to play with to fix that?07:51
Jimbobjdub: re: the "root terminal" thing, you could (as an interim solution) have the desktop exec "gnome-terminal --execute sudo -s -p 'Enter your password to run a root shell: '"07:51
=== robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
danielsLathiat: you need to install x11proto-gl-dev :P07:52
danielsLathiat: sudo apt-get install x11proto-gl-dev, see what it conflicts with07:52
Lathiatheh ok07:53
Lathiatthat was in a buildd but07:53
Lathiatbut i suppose i can see what it does locally07:53
=== sjoerd [sjoerd@fire.ipv6.luon.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== HiddenWolf [~hidden@136.2.dynamic.phpg.net] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"]
=== HiddenWolf [~hidden@136.2.dynamic.phpg.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
whiprushhey fabbione 07:57
fabbionehi whiprush 07:57
whiprushmay I trouble with you with a kernel question?07:58
fabbionewhiprush: if you feel lucky :)07:58
whiprushthe pptp driver in hoary doesn't work with bsd-based firewalls like monowall.07:58
whiprusha friend of mine bugged me with it but hasn't told me specifics yet07:59
fabbioneit's a bsd problem :P07:59
whiprushapparently some distros are pulling the pptp driver right from the guys CVS even though he hasn't made a release.08:00
whiprushhow shall I proceed?08:00
fabbionewe don't pull from CVS08:00
fabbionei am pretty sure about it...08:00
whiprushok, so the right answer is "ask the guy to release?"08:01
fabbionewhiprush: how to proceed is a good question... does it work with other distros?08:01
=== ivoks [~ivoks@backup.grad.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel
whiprushit works with fc4 just fine.08:01
fabbionewhiprush: no, my point is that we don't pull from CVS.. should we?08:01
fabbionewhiprush: if it works with other distros, it might as well be a problem with bsd...08:02
whiprushbut, the one thing that caught my attention is the original patch was for 2.6.2308:02
fabbionetoo many vars in the middle08:02
whiprusher, 2.6.208:02
whiprushwhich led me to ask "why isn't in mainline yet?" if it's been so long08:02
fabbioneif nobody push the patch, it will never go mainline08:03
fabbione+ the code needs to be clean08:03
fabbioneand probably it's not08:03
whiprushI agree.08:03
=== slomo [~slomo@p5487C73F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
whiprushMy bsd-based router is a new release of m0n0wall, which is pretty popular around my group of friends. But this kernel patch seems to be wonky.08:04
whiprushlast update I can tell is for 2.6.208:04
fabbionemppe                    http://free.polbox.pl/h/hs001/                                          mppe-mppc-(.*).patch.gz         1.3                     linux-08:05
fabbione2.6.11-[] 08:05
fabbioneis this one the patch you are talking about?08:05
whiprushanyway, I'll get more specifics on the patch itself, I've had like 3 of my friends patch their kernels to "make it work" but none of them seem to know any specifics.08:05
=== davyd [~davyd@cugglephone.madeley.id.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== `anthony [~anthony@220-253-14-6.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== chris38-home2 [~Christian@LNeuilly-152-22-2-96.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel
whiprushI'll file a bug, I was just wondering if you happened to know anything about it off the top of your head.08:06
whiprush2 of them just enabled ipsec and worked with that instead if filing a bug (grrr!!!!)08:07
fabbionewhiprush: i might as well be a BSD problem08:08
fabbionei really have no idea08:08
whiprushok, I'll get more specifics on it then08:08
fabbionei don't use bsd and tbh i don't have machines to test it and knowledge to debug it08:08
=== icaro [~icaro@adsl-ull-158-28.44-151.net24.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbioneit works linux2linux so for me it's ok08:09
whiprushIt really sucks when people fix their stuff and tell no one. 08:09
fabbioneok = it can be bsd ;)08:09
whiprush"Oh hey, ubuntu won't work with this pptp setup, and no I can't help you, but I like the naked girls."08:10
whiprushstory of my life. 08:10
whiprushbut hey if it makes you feel better, inotify has been pretty solid this cycle. :D08:11
infinityOh, wow.  My laptop might actually show up on my doorstep tomorrow.  Finally.08:12
fabbioneOHHH now it works08:13
=== marilize [~marilize@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
whiprushinfinity: wotcha get?08:16
danielsdamn it, the cursor generation has defeated me for today.08:16
whiprushhmmm, since I spoiled my cool points on fabbione, daniels, may I trouble you for a question?08:17
danielsgo nuts08:17
whiprushthis zach rusin thing?08:18
whiprushworth it (will it be in breezy?) or are we waiting for Xegl?08:19
danielsexa is more than worth it.  you can't do some of the cool tricks you can do with gl (e.g. desktop-on-a-cube), but it makes most other uses of composite very performant.08:19
whiprushman, I don't even know if that's a right question.08:19
danielsit'll be in breezy for radeon and i810 at least08:20
danielsoh, and sis08:20
whiprushSo, is it bling for breezy? or ... ?08:20
danielsbling-for-breezy, but not by default08:20
whiprushgood good.08:20
danielsin any case, I need to go clean up; got a landlord's inspection tomorrow.  blah.08:20
whiprushdaniels: get a haircut, and maybe a new shirt.08:21
=== rjo [~jordens@rjo.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-devel
danielswhiprush: hah.  nah, this is in the house that I'm moving out of, but others are staying on, so I have to make it all slick and shiny.08:23
danielsi look presentable whereever I go, so houses that *I* inspect aren't a worry :P08:23
whiprushgood plan08:23
=== zenrox [~zenrox@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== pitti [~pitti@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
ivokspitti: morning :)08:32
pittiivoks: good luck for your exam!08:33
ivoksheh, i will not take it :(08:34
ivoksi'm not 100% ready, so no point in doing it bad...08:34
=== JaneW [~JaneW@wbs-146-148-30.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-devel
pittiHey JaneW08:39
=== womble [~mpalmer@203-219-190-106.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== mrzero [~ole@orwen.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbionehey guys08:44
pittiHi fabbione 08:44
JaneWmorning pitti08:47
fabbionehey JaneW 08:47
JaneWhey fabbione08:49
fabbionewe will soon able to install on LVM :)08:49
fabbionei finally got a working package08:49
Treenaksfabbione: cluster-lvm?08:49
fabbioneJaneW: that'd be InstallerVolumeManager08:49
fabbioneTreenaks: nothing to do with clustering08:50
Treenaksfabbione: there is clusterlvm right?08:50
fabbioneTreenaks: that's clvm.. and it's only an extra layer (sort of plugin) to make lvm work in a clusterized env08:50
fabbionebut that won't be in the default install08:50
=== bytee [~byte@byte.fedora] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== `anthony [~anthony@ekorp-203-63-137-225.eoff.ekorp.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== SloMoSnail [~slomo@vpn-imt1.uni-paderborn.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
JaneWfabbione: excellent09:04
=== pitti [~pitti@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== bradb-away [~bradb@modemcable082.64-130-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel
tepsipakkihi, I've tested gnome-screensaver on breezy, and it seems to work for the most part09:29
tepsipakkijust not the "popsquares"-screensaver ;)09:30
tepsipakkignome-screensaver-dialog needed to be setuid-root, otherwise locking didn't work09:30
maehey guys, gnome baker is looking quite promising, maybe we should include in breezy?09:31
maei built the CVS and it supports automatic decoding of flac for audio cd's  :D09:31
tepsipakkimae: it is in universe09:32
maetepsipakki, yes i know , but i think its good enough to include as a general purpose burner tool, don't you?09:32
maein the main distro09:33
mae_on_ the cd :)09:33
=== r0bby [~wakawaka@cpe-204-210-133-115.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== fwiffo [~fwiffo@dhcpserver0.oersted.dtu.dk] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== ivoks [~ivoks@backup.grad.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== niran [~niran@cpe-67-10-213-51.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== elmo [~james@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== fwiffo [~fwiffo@dhcpserver0.oersted.dtu.dk] has joined #ubuntu-devel
pittielmo: please sync ipsec-tools09:52
=== Safari_Al [~tr@ppp237-65.lns2.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== chmj [~chmj@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
pittiHey sivang10:20
sivangpitti: Hi Martin, how are you?10:20
pittifine, thanks10:20
sivangpitti: oh, I need to quit and login again, after I Have activated screen :-)10:20
elmopitti: done10:21
=== retrix [~sam@ppp225-190.lns3.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
sivangpitti: back10:22
tepsipakkiI'm not getting the launchpad-registration mails10:22
=== gbon121 [~peppe@bohr.pisa.iol.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel
tepsipakkiI've tried a couple of times.. checked all the spam folders etc ;)10:22
fabbioneKamion: ping?10:22
=== jane_ [~JaneW@wbs-146-191-220.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Jimbob [~jcape@c-24-14-115-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== swarm [~swarm@host38-150.pool80181.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-46-106.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel
sivangseb128: morning10:45
sivangseb128: have you heared from jamesh ? I discussed with him a bit the creation of a helper lib, but after that I didn't get in touch with him10:45
pittiHey seb128 10:45
seb128sivang: I pinged him yesterday, he's busy but will try to have a shot on patching gtk today10:46
seb128sivang: what helper lib?10:47
sivangseb128: helper lib , he is not going to patch Gtk10:47
sivangseb128: the helper lib will contain the action group for the launchpad integration stuff,10:47
sivangseb128: and will will patch applications to use it10:47
sivangseb128: (to the best of my understanding)10:47
sivangseb128: He said patching Gtk would be a bad idea anyways10:48
seb128jamesh: around?10:48
=== fwiffo [~fwiffo@dhcpserver0.oersted.dtu.dk] has joined #ubuntu-devel
sivangseb128: btw, on the app list I see gnome-system-manager, I can't find a package for it..10:50
sivangseb128: under gnome-media10:52
sivangseb128: sorry, under UIManager10:53
seb128probably a typo for the package name10:53
sivangseb128: ok, maybe you meant gnome-system-monitor?10:55
sivangseb128: k10:56
seb128are you going to patches stuff not using gtkuimanager?10:56
fabbioneseb128: gnome-doc-utils is uninstallable...10:57
seb128fabbione: I know10:57
sivangseb128: I don't mind doing anything you'd feel like assigning me to :-) if you like me to do that, I'll start with it, might be easier to me since I am not so much familiar with UIManager inner workings10:57
fabbioneseb128: ok :)10:57
seb128will fix it soon :)10:58
fabbionei know :) i just wanted to be sure you knew10:58
seb128sivang: yes please, this spec has to move now10:58
sivangseb128: ok, then I'll have a pathcie weekend :-)10:58
seb128fabbione: sombody bugzilla-ed about it, I read the mail just before going to bed10:58
seb128sivang: thanks10:59
sivangseb128: I might however, need your help here and there, so be redy to get pinged :-)10:59
fabbionei guess it's time to downgrade ipw2x0010:59
Lathiatfabbione: whys that?10:59
torkelto make it work on 2.6.12?11:00
Lathiatnew ones work for me shrug11:00
seb128sivang: np11:00
fabbioneLathiat: not the ipw210011:00
Lathiatfabbione: ah11:00
fabbioneLathiat: and the ipw2200 has problems with the firmware11:00
Lathiatwell, i havent had any problems with my 22011:01
Lathiatbut i guess if 2100 is broken, well, bugger11:01
=== marilize [~marilize@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbionethe only sensible solution is to downgrade to something that's know to work11:01
torkelLathiat: 2100 oopses on 2.6.12 :-(11:01
Lathiattorkel: suck11:01
fabbionei could actually do an attempt to fix it11:01
fabbionebut i need volunteers to test it11:02
fabbionebut there will still be the 2200 firmware problem11:02
Lathiatwell, its just later versions of the driver fix the 2200 stuff from dying randomly11:02
=== chmj raises his hand
Lathiati can test the 2200 11:02
torkeland I can test 210011:02
fabbioneok.. is it the -686- flavour good enough for both of you?11:03
Lathiatyeh 686 works for me11:03
Lathiati can try 386 if you want11:03
Lathiatdo the colony install cds work?11:03
fabbioneLathiat: can you check #12417?11:03
fabbioneLathiat: for me it's enough one flavour works..11:03
fabbionethe others will follow :)11:03
elmofabbione: cvd has a very temperemental 2200 that isn't fixed by breezy 2.6.12 FWIW; I'm happy to randomly install new kernels on her laptop11:04
fabbioneelmo: can you check what's in dmesg and if it matches what's in #12417?11:04
=== shackan [shackan@host43-101.pool8259.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Lathiatfabbione: i get nothign like that, all works fine11:07
elmofabbione: noting in kern.log like that11:07
fabbionehmm apparently the breakage was between 1.0.3 and 1.0.411:08
fabbionewe might be lucky..11:08
=== vedran [~vedran@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
JaneWogra: ping11:09
ograJaneW, pong11:10
JaneWogra: are you ready to go for a tested/implemented shade of green on BreezyGoals yet? ;)11:10
ograJaneW, i'll go through them today again, but i fear i cant change colors very much yet11:11
ograAudioCDBurning could get a little greener... 11:11
elmofabbione: http://people.ubuntu.com/~james/tmp/ has a dmesg and kern.log, if it's useful11:11
=== zeedo [~zeedo@www.reboot-robot.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbioneelmo: checking11:12
fabbione[4294695.281000]  ieee80211: eth1: Unknown management packet: 011:12
fabbioneelmo: this seems to be the culprit11:12
ograKamion, gnome-power got approved for main, could you shuffle the seeds ?11:12
fabbioneelmo: apparently the ieee80211 layer is broken.. making both ipw2100 and 2200 crap11:13
JaneWogra: ok, thanks :)11:13
=== tvo [~tobi@5354EA9B.cable.casema.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbioneanyway.. i need some lunch now..11:13
pittifabbione: maybe that's even the reason for the crash I experienced with netapplet and my wireless`11:13
ograseb128, how likely is it that services-admin will be ready in time ? its crashing badly over here11:14
fabbionepitti: do you have ipw2100 or 2200 =11:14
pittifabbione: no, prism211:14
pittifabbione: but that uses the 80211 layer as well11:14
fabbionepitti: i don't think the prism2 uses that set of modules.. they come specifically with ipw2x0011:14
pittioh, ok11:14
pittifabbione: btw, I deinstalled netapplet, now I don't get crashes any more11:14
fabbioneiirc the prism2 has it's set of ieee80211 modules11:14
fabbionebecause clearly there are something like 23298392 copies of the same code11:15
fabbioneeach one crashes in a different spectacular way11:15
=== SloMoSnail [~slomo@vpn-imt0.uni-paderborn.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
chmjoh dear 11:15
fabbionebreezy+1 won't have this problem11:15
seb128ogra: it works fine here11:15
Lathiatwhys that?11:15
fabbioneall this stuff is going upstream11:15
=== herzi [~herzi@d042151.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbioneanyway.. food11:15
seb128ogra: if you don't send bugs for your issue they are not going to be fixed11:15
ograseb128, i cant start samba.... (i once removed the link in rc2.d)11:16
seb128if you messed stuff by hand ...11:16
ogra.... same for apache11:16
ograit should deal with that and not just crash ;)11:16
seb128send a backtrace11:16
ograi'll do11:16
seb128it doesn't crash here11:16
seb128describe what to do to get the crash11:17
seb128and send a bt11:17
torkelfood sounds like an good idea11:17
ograseb128, sure, i'll open a bug...11:17
ograseb128, nice to know it works for you... i just have to know if it doesnt make it, because i have a bounty student for that ;)11:17
pittielmo: please sync strace11:18
=== mitsuhiko [~mitsuhiko@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
seb128ogra: DOH on duplicated work :/11:19
seb128ogra: that's a bounty waste11:19
ograseb128, nope :)11:19
seb128what is the student doing?11:20
ograseb128, its called GraphicalConfigTools, not service manager ;)11:20
ograand we already postpned the services app.... since we both belive in garnachos work *g*11:20
seb128what is the guy doing?11:21
ograso now we'll get a ndsiwrapper tool to select your inf file via file selector, a scheduled task tool... and probably something for a basic LAMP setup11:21
ograbut i doubt the latter will be ready in time (to big task)11:22
ograseb128, in any case google pays it...11:22
retrix:) im the lucky bounty student btw11:24
Lathiati was going to play with that ndiswrapper thing but i havent been able to get my hand on some hardware to play with it11:24
ograseb128, if you got other suggestions for needed tools... just say :)11:24
ograhey retrix 11:24
pittielmo: please sync exim411:24
retrixhi ogra11:25
elmo     exim4 |     4.52-1 |        breezy | source11:26
elmonothing to sync11:26
pittioh, then somebody didn't close the merging bug11:27
pittithanks anyway11:27
seb128elmo: can you get gnome-screensaver out of NEW?11:27
seb128ogra: do we have any dsl config tool?11:28
ograseb128, you mean a gui for pppoeconf ?11:28
seb128by example11:28
ograthat would be a good addition, yes11:28
seb128something to configure your internet11:28
ograretrix, what do you think ? 11:28
ograsounds more achievable then a LAMP gui...11:29
retrixi could probably manage that11:30
=== dr88dr88 [~gerrit@h174040.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel
ograretrix, have a look at it and come back to me if you like to do it, i dont wont to get you under pressure ;)11:31
=== SloMoSnail [~slomo@vpn-imt5.uni-paderborn.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
retrixok ill look into it ogra11:34
ogragreat :)11:34
Kamiondaniels: pong11:34
Kamionfabbione: pong11:34
Kamionogra: you should learn how to edit the seeds yourself; see SeedManagement on the wiki11:34
=== Kamion glares at openssh
ograKamion, i'm on it for edubuntu :)11:35
=== mxpxpod [~bryan@12-207-1-46.client.mchsi.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mdzdaniels,Kamion: install from yesterday's Breezy fails in X configuration11:38
mdzxserver-xorg/config/inputdevice/keyboard/layout not set . Aborting11:38
Kamionmdz: yes, I already mailed daniels about it, he's fixing it for -3511:38
Kamionsent me a workaround as well which I might apply if it's urgent11:38
Kamion(preseed xserver-xorg/autodetect_keyboard=true)11:39
fabbioneKamion: i uploaded p-a-l 2ubuntu1.. it works here for me...11:42
fabbioneKamion: if you want to give it a shot too it would be nice11:42
ograpitti, ping11:43
pittiHey ogra11:43
ograpitti, jdub asked me to package gnome-screensaver (which seb128 already did now) and to come to you for a security review11:43
ogra(it just got synced)11:44
pittiso it's in universe soon?11:44
ogralooks like... if it builds :)11:44
pitticould you please prepare an intitial report? with debian and upstream bug tracker review, security history, and so on?11:45
pitti... and of course a test :-)11:45
ograsure... as soo as its available....11:45
pittiI'll look at the packages and critical parts of the code11:45
pittiogra: btw, does it have any elevated privs?11:45
Kamionfabbione: ok, but I doubt it will be soon at this rate :(11:46
Kamionfabbione: cool, though11:46
fabbioneKamion: eh ok :)11:46
ograpitti, dunno, havent looked myself yet... but it should work in the user-session as xscreensaver does11:46
ograpitti, so i douubt it...11:46
pittiyes, I assume that :-)11:47
seb128ogra: it's not synced, I've packaged it for Ubuntu11:47
fabbioneKamion: the only hack left around is how we need to round up the lvm overhead at lvcreate time, that might create the last partition a bit bigger than usual.. but for the other stuff it's ok11:47
ograseb128, oh11:47
fabbioneKamion: we still miss all the goodies like the progress, but that's not high priority11:47
=== enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== sabdfl [~mark@host217-37-231-22.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mdzis gnome-screensaver based on xscreensaver, or is it entirely different?11:48
fabbionehey mdz11:48
mdzfabbione: morning11:48
jsgotangcohey> - include a PDF poster (e.g., A0 size) that can be downloaded and11:48
jsgotangco> printed. I'll start with the one we had in Sydney (the Hoary CD cover)11:48
jsgotangco> but over time we may be able to get approved ones from the Art Team11:48
jsgotangco> - include a link to shipit for ordering CDs (with info about delivery11:48
jsgotangco> time & planning ahead!)11:48
jsgotangco> - a link to the Ubuntu stuff on Cafe Press (we're in the process of11:48
fabbionesabdfl morning 11:48
=== rob^ [~rob@rob-ubuntu.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-devel
jsgotangco> updating these items with better logos)11:48
jsgotangco> - a link to a page to share tips/experiences11:49
mdzdaniels: did you determine what should be done about /usr/bin/X11?11:49
jsgotangco> - a list of conferences where people plan to hand out Ubuntu CDs11:49
sabdflfabbione: hi11:49
jsgotangco> 11:49
jsgotangco> We'll also try to find a reasonable way to make & provide some other11:49
jsgotangco> collateral (stickers, other giveaways, etc) and we'll add this info to11:49
mdzjsgotangco: please don't do that11:49
jsgotangco> the page when it's available.11:49
jsgotangco> 11:49
fabbioneKamion: i also published all the patches.. one by one in the usual dir11:49
jsgotangcomdz, sorry my bad11:49
Kamion     - Ubuntu branding for the master template file.11:49
Kamionfabbione: huh? what was that?11:49
Kamion-2 killed that requirement I thought11:49
fabbioneKamion: to change the default VG name from Debian to Ubuntu11:49
tepsipakkignome-screensaver needs one component to be setuid-root, as I said earlier11:50
fabbioneKamion: it is still a one line change11:50
tepsipakkiotherwise I couldn't get it to lock the screen11:50
Kamionfabbione: aha, ok11:50
tepsipakkisee: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30961311:50
Kamionrighto, I'll have a look over the changes when I get a chance, thanks dude11:50
elmofabbione: cvd's laptop did get that nasty firmware crap - I've had to downgrade to hoary kernel now11:51
fabbioneKamion: no problem.. just keep in mind one thing.. i did produce the patches in the same order as i was fixing bugs or changing things.. so to get a working package you still need all of them in the right sequence...11:51
=== hunger [~tobias@p54A64010.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbioneelmo: ok.. i am working on it right now11:51
fabbioneKamion: including changes to changelog and stuff :)11:51
seb128I could kick this Vincent Trouilliez guy11:51
ogramdz, gnome-screensaver is essentially a fork of xscreensaver11:51
tepsipakkiogra: fork?11:52
jsgotangcoseb128, haha11:52
tepsipakkiisn't it written from scratch?11:52
ogramdz, bt i havent looked yet how far they forked11:52
ogratepsipakki, http://live.gnome.org/GnomeScreensaver_2fFrequentlyAskedQuestions11:52
Lathiatah xembed, cute solution11:53
Kamionfabbione: sure11:55
=== jdthood [~jdthood@x095.decis.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel
jdthoodpitti: I have been thinking about set-default-soundcard...11:56
pittiHi jdthood 11:57
jdthoodpitti: The utility sets the card _number_.  This depends on the order in which the drivers are loaded, unless the module loader configuration contains options that enforce certain index numbers for certain drivers.11:57
jdthoodpitti: Have you considered using card _names_?11:58
pittijdthood: well, they are harder to map and error prone11:58
jdthoodpitti: How so?11:58
pittibut if it can be done robustly, that would of course be possible as well11:59
pittijdthood: how is that specified in asoundrc?11:59
jdthoodpitti: Generally you can use names anywhere you can use numbers.11:59
jdthood$ cat /proc/asound/cards11:59
jdthood0 [CS46xx         ] : CS46xx - Sound Fusion CS46xx11:59
=== niran [~niran@cpe-67-10-213-51.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
jdthood$ cat /proc/asound/cards12:01
jdthood0 [Dummy          ] : Dummy - Dummy12:01
jdthood                     Dummy 112:01
jdthood1 [CS46xx         ] : CS46xx - Sound Fusion CS46xx12:01
ograjdthood, i'm the guy from the hwdb.... i built in a check for the soundcard name... you cant imagine how many kernel modules only report [rev0]  as the name, you cant distinguish it with the name (yet)12:01
jdthoodIf I load another snd driver first, my principal sound card gets a different index (1 instead of 0) but it retains the same name ('CS46xx').12:02
jdthoodogra: Ah.12:02
ograjdthood, so a check for both would probably the way to go12:02
jdthoodogra: Yes.  Would it be possible to set the soundcard on the basis of the name, if the name is something "valid", and fall back to the number?12:03
ograwhy not ? its only code ;)12:03
ograthe question is, does pitti have time to implement sich things.... else i'd go with the numbering scheme for now and think about a more fine grained solution for breezy+1 :)12:04
jdthoodogra: On second thought ... the program is run from System|Preferences|Sound|Default and this _has_ to display a useful name in order for the user to be able to make an informed choice.12:04
pittijdthood: it does already12:05
pittijdthood: but we can assume that the name is valid at that moment12:05
jdthoodpitti: Does what already?12:05
pittijdthood: yes, that's done in gnome-sound-properties12:05
jdthoodpitti, orga: So why not change set-default-soundcard to write the name (as displayed to the user) instead of the index number into .asoundrc?12:06
jdthoodSorry if I am missing something?12:07
pittijdthood: unfortunately I just lost my second audio device three days ago, so I cannot test that right now12:07
pittijdthood: but I didn't know that you can put names as values of defaults.pcm.card12:08
jdthoodpitti: I believe you just put the name instead of the numeral.  Probably you have to protect it with quotation marks if it contains spaces.12:08
=== jdthood tests this
pittijdthood: next week I get a shiny new desktop box again, then I can have two sound cards again12:10
pittijdthood: right now I only have my laptop, pretty hard to add a second pci soundcard :-)12:10
pittijdthood: btw, are you at debconf5?12:11
jdthoodpitti: Nope12:11
jdthoodpitti: Well, just replacing the numeral with the name does _not_ work.  :/12:12
pittijdthood: well, IIRC I read a bit about that, and I never heard that you can use names12:13
jdthoodpitti: I have found that, in general, alsa-lib can work with names just as easily as with index numbers.12:13
pittijdthood: maybe libasound can be easily *made to* accept names as a value :-)12:14
=== jsgotangco [~user@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
pittielmo: please sync libapache2-mod-auth-pgsql and strace12:26
zygais any ubuntu dev currently in london12:28
ograzyga, our office is there....12:28
ograzyga, but everybody is well12:29
zygaI just heard about the attacks12:29
elmolibapache2-mod-auth-pgsql |  2.0.2b1-6 |        breezy | source, amd64, hppa, i386, ia64, powerpc, sparc12:29
elmopitti: nothing to sync?12:29
elmostrace done12:29
jdthoodpitti: Ah, I figured it out12:30
pittielmo: bah, if somebody asks for sync, they should close the merging bug. Sorry12:30
=== Traxer|off [traxer@shell6.powershells.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Kamionzyga: all Canonical employees are safe at least, don't know about other developers12:31
ograW: squeak-vm: binary-has-unneeded-section ./usr/lib/squeak/3.7-7/vm-display-fbdev .comment12:31
=== marilize [~marilize@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
ograis it possible dh_stip, install -s and strip -s are broken ?12:31
ograi cant get this warning go away it seems... with neither of the tools12:32
Kamionyou have to explicitly do strip --remove-section=.comment12:32
chmjzyga: what attacks ?12:32
Kamionchmj: news.bbc.co.uk12:32
ograKamion, wow, thnks12:32
zygachmj: bombs in the subway and in several buses12:32
chmjKamion: thnx 12:32
ograKamion, lintian -i tells something different ;)12:32
Kamionogra: dh_strip does this for files it knows to be shared libraries or executables12:32
ograKamion, yes, the squeak plugin mechanism is a bit strange12:33
Kamionogra: RTFS :)12:33
Kamionit's fair enough for lintian not to go into quite all the details I think12:33
ograif i give -i it should show details ....12:33
Kamion                if ($type=~m/.*ELF.*(executable|shared).*/) {12:33
ograthats why i do this12:33
Kamionogra: they're implementation details of dh_strip12:34
Kamionanyway if 'file' on /usr/lib/squeak/3.7-7/vm-display-fbdev matched that regex, it would have .comment and .note stripped12:34
ograN:   The binary or shared library is stripped, but still contains a section12:34
ograN:   that is not useful. The utilities (install -s and dh_strip) are12:34
ograN:   patched to remove the .note and .comment sections.12:34
Kamionyes, and they do12:34
torkelzyga: is it confirmed that it was bombs?12:34
Kamionfor sensible binaries12:34
ograso i assume install -s does this....12:34
JanCtorkel : 3 busses don't explode on themselves...12:35
ogratorkel, yes12:35
zygatorkel: it seems so12:35
zygatorkel: buses dont blow to bits out of thin air12:35
Kamion      execlp ("strip", "strip", "--remove-section=.comment", "--remove-section=.note", path, NULL);12:35
zygamany people died apparently, it's a sad day :-(12:35
Kamioninstall -s does that unconditionally if built with ELF support12:36
Kamionso perhaps your binary is too broken for strip to be able to handle it?12:36
ograKamion, lets see... just compiling again....12:36
pittielmo: cdrtools sync, please12:39
elmopitti: done12:40
ograKamion, --remove-section worked... many many thanks, this is a weird source making me rip my hair out12:40
ogranow on to all these rpath errors12:41
Kamionogra: hm, I certainly don't understand why install -s would have failed then12:41
pittiogra: gnome-screensaver ftbfs12:41
ograKamion, it did...12:41
ograpitti, oki12:41
ograpitti, thanks for reporting :)12:41
=== azeem [~mbanck@proxy-out.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
elmopitti: assigned the lib32z1 bug to you at mdz's request (you touchedit last)12:44
=== ivoks [~ivoks@backup.grad.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel
pittielmo: odd, I only changed one line in the code...; I'll look at it12:56
=== aeddan [~aeddan@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== henriquemaia [~henriquem@cb-217-129-174-207.netvisao.pt] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Simira [~rpGirl@ti200720a080-0126.bb.online.no] has joined #ubuntu-devel
pittielmo: please sync adduser 12:58
pittielmo: ... and bsdmainutils01:00
=== mitsuhiko [~mitsuhiko@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
elmopitti: done01:05
pittielmo: I think I'll cumulate the next requests...01:05
HiddenWolfseb128, you've got 2 different email adresses on the new upload of gnome-screensaver, is that intentional?01:07
seb128I use my debian email for the Maintainer and my Ubuntu one for the uploads01:08
HiddenWolfseb128, just wondering01:09
=== ogra [~ogra@p5089E56A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== susus [~sz@p5089E56A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Robinho_Peixoto [~preview@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
seb128pitti: do you read utopia-list?01:24
fabbionechmj, elmo, ipw2x00 testers....01:27
fabbionei have a test image for you guys01:27
fabbioneNOTE that it breaks the ABI01:28
fabbionethat it is NOT reflected in the package name01:28
fabbioneso if you use some of your own compiled drivers they will break to death01:28
fabbionechmj: they might actually work.. but keep an extra eye ;)01:30
davydso, it would be really swell if I could use update-alternatives to select my version of gcc01:30
fabbioneonly ipw2100 and ipw2200 should be affected01:30
mjg59fabbione: Should this fix the oops?01:33
=== msturm [~msturm@kbl-gs8065.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbionemjg59: yes.. but i need people to test it01:34
fabbionemjg59: i need at least an ipw2100 and an ipw220001:34
mjg59fabbione: Ok, I'll give it a go later01:35
fabbionemjg59: ok thanks01:36
fabbionemjg59: what chipset do you have of the above?01:36
torkelfabbione: at least it does not oops when doing a 'iwlist eth1 scan' with ipw210001:36
lifelessdavyd: you can, if you install an alternative 01:36
lifelessdavyd: its a shame its not in the package though01:36
fabbionetorkel: it should work without any problem now01:37
fabbionetorkel: it's exactly the same as upstream :)01:38
=== diarrhoe [~Cauchy@p54BD1371.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Keybuk [~scott@descent.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbionetorkel: can you put the interface in traffic?01:40
fabbionetorkel: and see if it works as it should?01:41
=== Gerrath [Gerrath@shanev.lifecor.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
pittiseb128: yes, I do01:42
=== Gerrath [Gerrath@shanev.lifecor.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbionepitti: check /. article about ICMP from today01:42
fabbioneDevelopers: Examining ICMP Flaws01:43
=== Gerrath [Gerrath@shanev.lifecor.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Treenaksfabbione: is that not just some more Theo De Raadt FUD?01:43
fabbioneTreenaks: i only read the subject...01:44
fabbioneone thing at a time ;)01:44
seb128pitti: k, bastien was asking on the GNOME list on reply to a mail from Jeff speaking about your audiocard selector01:44
pittiseb128: that is sitting in the gnome bts for weeks now... has there been any progress?01:45
fabbioneTreenaks: no.. it doesn't look like01:45
torkelfabbione: seems to be working. Anything special you want me to test?01:45
=== justdave [~justdave@justdave.user] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbionetorkel: not really...01:45
seb128pitti: I'm quite upstream for that ... I'll point the bug to Bastien01:45
fabbioneyou know what the driver can/cannot do01:45
seb128pitti: maybe Jeff knows who is to ping for that though01:46
pittifabbione: *wonderful* 01:46
=== GNULinuxer [~ghoseb@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== mpt [mpt@210-55-36-156.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbionepitti: we can still switch to DECnet IV :)01:48
fabbione"or download the Linux version of the older DECnet IV and bask in the Security Through Obscurity."01:48
mjg59fabbione: What change did you make? (It doesn't seem to be in the changelog)01:53
=== hunger [~tobias@p54A64010.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbionemjg59: reverted ipw2200 to
Simiratseng: ping01:54
mjg59fabbione: Ah, ok01:54
fabbionemjg59: that also brings back the ieee80211 to 1.0.1 that's the same as ipw2100 1.0.0 upstream01:54
fabbioneoh the ipw2200 firmware downgraded too01:54
fabbioneto match the driver version01:54
fabbionemjg59: i didn't add any changelog becuase i am not sure it works yet..01:54
fabbioneipw2100 seems fine..01:54
fabbioneso i am waiting somebody to test ipw220001:55
davydwoot, my laptop sleeps02:02
davydalthough I did rewrite the suspend script to do less stuff02:02
mjg59Did it not sleep before?02:03
davydatheros didn't power down cleanly02:03
davydseems to be fixed02:04
davydsomething in your suspend script seems to be blocking on my machine too02:06
davydyou can ctrl-c it, I should add the -x so I can see what it is02:06
hungerpitti: Just mailed you the latest and greatest cryptodisks script.02:07
pittihehe, thanks :)02:07
hungerpitti: I have messed with my mail setup again... so please tell me if it got through;-)02:07
pittihunger: might very well be that this has to wait until the week after debconf502:08
pittihunger: I still have some other stuff to do, and I'm leaving tomorrow02:08
hungerpitti: No problem... I am using the latest and greatest version of the script anyway;-)02:08
=== halfcat [~bruce@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
pittiogra: hey, g-screensaver built :-)02:18
ograpitti, yes... seb128's work :)02:19
pittiogra: will it be as nice as your hoary modifications to xscreensaver? :)02:19
pittiogra: oh, and btw, any news wrt. the hdwb hal changes?02:20
davydis this the one that abuses xembed?02:20
ograpitti, after UVF ?02:20
ogradavyd, yep02:20
pittiogra: certainly enough, but the architecture is not going to change any more anyway02:20
davydit's a pretty clever idea02:20
davydbetter then my one of extending Xlib02:20
pittiogra: however, today *is* UVF, apart from merges02:20
seb128dh_make sets02:20
seb128Cpu: any02:20
seb128System: any02:20
ograpitti, i know :)02:20
pittiseb128: argh, type-handling02:21
seb128and it doesn't put an "Architecture:" 02:21
pittiseb128: type-handling fills the architecture value in02:21
pittiseb128: there's certainly a control.in02:21
seb128I hate this stuff02:21
pittime too :-)02:21
seb128I've dropped it to start02:21
seb128jdub: apt-get install gnome-screensaver02:26
seb128jdub: is the upstream guy on IRC?02:27
jdubseb128: dunno02:27
seb128the current package has no user switching, it looks for a gdm.conf for that02:28
seb128and Build-Depends on gdm is not an option, installing 72 packages to get a config file is plainly wrong02:28
luis_seb128: he is sometimes02:29
=== luis_ tries to remember the nick
bob2jbailey@u.c goes where you'd think, right?02:32
=== dr88dr88 [~gerrit@h174040.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel
tsengSimira: yes?02:34
elmobob2: jeff.bailey will for sure02:34
bob2ah, good point, thanks elmo02:35
=== pitti_ [~pitti@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== jbailey [~jbailey@modemcable134.23-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel
seb128luis_: k, let me know if you get his nickname :)02:46
=== mpt [mpt@210-55-36-156.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has left #ubuntu-devel []
luis_I can't remember02:51
luis_and AFAICT he isn't online02:51
mdzKamion: I've added the ltsp bits to ship; I don't think it should be very heavy, but just so you know in case it blows up unexpectedly02:51
=== kosty [~arsen@devel.priocom.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== halfcat [~bruce@] has left #ubuntu-devel []
=== chmj [~chmj@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
seb128luis_: k, I'll mail him rather, he seems to be quite fast to reply to bugs02:58
bob2lamont-away: did you ever end up getting the kernel to like your cell phone?02:58
=== Diziet [~ian@xenophobe.extern.relativity.greenend.org.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel
ograhmm, gnome-screensaver is very strict if you lock the screen.... very strict.... you dont even get a unlock dialog ....02:59
mdzDiziet: welcome02:59
elmofabbione: d2adef1f0f4d271026096b13eae86dc4  ../linux-image-2.6.12-3-686_2.6.12-3.4_i386.deb02:59
elmofabbione: that what i want?02:59
Dizietmdz: Hello.02:59
fabbioneelmo: the one from people.. there is only one 3.402:59
mdzDiziet: so I wanted to catch up regarding NetworkMagic02:59
ograDiziet, hi...02:59
fabbioneelmo: note the ABI thing i wrote above02:59
Dizietmdz: Yes, please !03:00
mdzDiziet: thom mentioned he had received mail from you, but hadn't replied yet (at the time I spoke to him)03:00
DizietThat's still true.03:00
mdzDiziet: but in any case the first step is getting network-manager into shape03:00
DizietAt least AFAICT.  I haven't checked my logs.03:00
DizietOK.  Is there a list somewhere of what's wrong with it ?03:00
elmofabbione: abi doesn't matter if I'm just using that image .deb and nothing else, right?03:00
DizietOr will it be obvious ? :-)03:00
elmowell, assuming reboot-after-install03:00
fabbioneelmo: right03:00
ograDiziet, bugzilla ?03:01
DizietI haven't looked at it yet; my testbed machine is installing as I write.03:01
=== Diziet goes to look.
jbaileymdz: ping?03:01
mdzDiziet: if you install it, a few things jump out03:01
fabbioneelmo: yes.. that will make it easier03:01
mdzDiziet: for instance, it depends on bind903:01
mdzDiziet: and it mangles /etc/resolv.conf in some very interesting ways03:01
fabbioneelmo: otherwise you need to unload all the ipw and ieee802* modules and reload them03:01
DizietI can see the argument for having a local proper cache, actually.03:02
mdzI suggest installing it in a few places (most interestingly a laptop with wireless + wired interfaces) as a start03:02
DizietOK.  I've got one of those with enough disk for an install.03:02
mdzDiziet: sure, but bind9 is a bit heavy and its default configuration is not suitable for that03:02
DizietQuite so.03:02
jbaileymdz: Was just talking with fabionne about the best way to handle that older udev's don't like 2.6.12, and newer udev's require newer kernels.  Trying to figure out if depends'ing on Linux >> 2.6.12 would work and if we can assume that the kernel version provided there will be present on next boot.03:02
DizietDo we have an opinion about our preferred cache ?03:03
mdzso NM is pretty rough around the edges and needs to be polished up to integrate smoothly with the rest of the system03:03
DizietI'll have a play with it and see what looks like needing fixing.03:03
mdzDiziet: lwresd seems like the right idea, though I confess to never having actually used it03:03
ograespecially its working very bad with pcmcia here ....03:03
jdubmdz: NM runs BIND with its own configuration; i've been talking to upstream about the nscd switch - sounds like that's the way to go03:03
mdzthe key use cases are documented in the spec03:03
Dizietmdz: Right.03:03
DizietBut they're largely obvious.03:03
mdzjbailey: elmo would hate you03:03
jbaileymdz: The catch is arch's that don't provide 'linux' because there's no default kernel, but those could just depend on, say, linux-hppa32 | linux-hppa64 and trust that the user already has at the right kernel installed courtesy of the installer.03:04
Dizietnscd ?  Surely that can't be the right answe.r03:04
elmojbailey: dude, that's horrid - I don't think we can assume our users are running kernels we provide03:04
mdzthey may be obvious, but they don't work yet, and it's not clear whether there are still pieces missing after we get NM in03:04
=== jbailey bats his eyes at elmo and tries to look cute.
Kamionjbailey: depending on kernel packages is awful03:04
elmoesp. when kernel-package built packages don't produce packages with the same name03:04
mdzat this point we need to get as quickly as possible to the point where we can add NM to the default install03:04
jdubDiziet: well, colour this knowing that drepper has been the, ah, "hard place" in the decision making process :)03:04
mdzwithout it doing anything insane03:04
mdzbecause currently it isn't getting anywhere near the level of testing that it needs03:05
jbaileyelmo: We have to in terms of providing a supported configuration anyway.  If someone touches their kernel and it breaks, we can't help them anyway.03:05
Dizietmdz: Right.03:05
jbaileyelmo: What we would be doing then is basically saying that as of a given release you have to have a minimum kernel version if you want to play at all.  Mark it in the release notes, enforced through a package dependancy.03:05
DizietWhat's Drepper got to do with it ?  I mean, um.  Just use normal dns and no nscd.03:05
Dizietnscd is EBW.03:05
Kamionjbailey: making our udev package not be usable unless you're using our kernels is just so bad03:06
jbaileyKamion: It's more fragile than I like, but we don't have any way of depending on kernel features available on next boot.03:06
Kamionjbailey: happy with release notes, but not the dependency03:06
jbaileyKamion: Not based on our kernel version, based on 2.6.1203:06
elmojbailey: what's the danger here, partial upgrades of udev?03:06
jdubDiziet: the reason why BIND/lwresd/nscd come up is because NM requires fast, reliable reconfiguration of DNS sources03:06
jbaileyudev 0.60 requires kernel 2.6.10.  2.6.12 requires udev 0.5603:06
elmowhy can't udev just check in the preinst?03:06
elmoat runtime?03:06
jbaileyudev-0.61 will require kernel 2.6.103:06
Kamionjbailey: yes, but as elmo says e.g. kernel-package produces differently-named packages by default, etc.03:06
Dizietjdub: Quite so.03:06
jdubDiziet: and interesting customisations for VPNs and so on, beyond what resolv.conf can do03:07
Kamionjbailey: so what you're in fact saying is "you may not hack your kernel and use udev"03:07
Dizietresolv.conf is not the answer.  A sensible cache is the right answer.03:07
=== luis_ is now known as lu|away
jdubDiziet: (this is the major reason why it uses a custom bind configuration, tweaks it, realoads it, etc)03:07
Kamionunless you're extremely familiar with making kernel-package DTRT03:07
jdubDiziet: yeah, thus bind :)03:07
DizietBIND8 is quite broken in this respect.  I imagine BIND9 will be worse, but I've not used BIND9.03:07
jbaileyKamion: Not at all.  I'm saying "hack your kernel, but use the upstream version that we support".03:07
mdzDiziet: is that enough of a concrete starting point to keep you busy for the present?03:07
jbaileyIdeally, newer ones will work, udev upstream has already broken this once.03:07
Diziet`BIND9 lightweight resolver protocol' ?  These people are on crack.03:08
=== _vedran [~vedran@secondary.energodata.ba] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Kamionjbailey: a preinst check would provide that *much* better than a package dependency03:08
jdubDiziet: worth reading the mailing list for background03:08
Dizietmdz: Yes, I think so.03:08
jbaileyWell, upstream kernel rather broke it so that older udev no longer worked.03:08
jbaileyKamion: Preinst check assumes you're running the kernel already.03:08
DizietI should have finished my own nameserver really.  Then we could use that :-).03:08
Kamionjbailey: package dependency assumes you have an Ubuntu-packaged kernel03:08
jbaileyRight now, running 2.6.12 on a warty system won't work.  The interface changed and udev hangs while walking /sys03:08
Kamionwe seem to be talking at cross-purposes here ...03:09
DizietRight now it just coredumps mainly.03:09
jbaileyKamion: Well, it assumes you have it installed.03:09
=== fabbione will let people figure this out..
=== fabbione really needs to rest
mdzjbailey: why do newer udevs require newer kernels?  is there no way to maintain backward compatibility?03:09
jbaileyKamion: It also offers the ability to quickly check what version we think you ought to have installed with dpkg -l linux03:09
jbaileymdz: sysfs structure changed.03:09
Kamioncjwatson@jackass:~$ dpkg -l linux-image\* | grep ^ii03:09
Kamionfor example03:09
DizietI think the right answer for now is probably to use BIND8 and restart it (not just reload it) when the config changes.03:09
mdzjbailey: also, what's the target date for making initramfs the default configuration?  that needs _gobs_ of testing03:10
Kamionjbailey: just for a start, that doesn't work on powerpc03:10
mdzDiziet: preferable would be to disable that whole piece of the mess and use existing DNS infrastructure while we sort it out03:10
Kamionjbailey: and it's hopelessly unreliable - it's very easy to update just linux-image-whatever without updating the metapackages too03:10
jbaileyKamion: Right, that's  why the 'linux' package would depend linux-power3 | linux-power4 | linux-powerpc64-smp03:11
mdzthe more piecewise we can bring NM in, the less painful it will be03:11
Kamionjbailey: people won't keep it up to date reliably03:11
Dizietmdz: That would make sense too.03:11
DizietJust messing with resolv.conf is probably sanest.03:11
jbaileyKamion: Yeah.  More fragile than I like, but a run-time test doesn't work here.03:11
Kamionjbailey: seriously, the dependency doesn't work either03:11
bob2note that things like firefox more or less ignore changes to resolv.conf03:11
Kamionjbailey: I'd rather have a preinst *warning*, and then have udev bomb out at run-time if it's still wrong03:12
jbaileyKamion: 'warning:  If you're not running 2.6.12 by the time you restart udev, it won't be able to run' type of thing?03:14
Kamionjbailey: right, if it's not possible to make udev tolerate the old structure03:14
Kamionjbailey: perhaps the udev init script could check the running kernel version before (re)starting udev03:15
Kamionjbailey: so that you don't break your system if you do '/etc/init.d/udev restart'03:15
KamionDiziet: Have you looked at the Ubuntu new-maintainer process yet? We should look at getting you through it soon.03:17
jbaileyKamion: That's doable.  I'm just wishing for some way of doing a more certain dependancy on the kernel version that will be installed next.  Apparently the next version of hal will want the next version of udev which will require 2.6.12.  Having the user have an old kernel will break alot of things. =(03:17
Dizietkam: No.03:18
DizietI just did what it said in NewStaffTasks under Ubuntu.03:18
DizietSo my key is in the keyring but I haven't done an upload or anything.03:18
ograDiziet, you are DD ?03:19
uniqare there known issues with udev/kernel in breezy (ppc)? after updating from hoary to breezy loading the correct sound modules doesn't create the correct /dev entries.03:19
jbaileymdz: Lemme give you an accurate answer to the initramfs default in a few hours.03:20
KamionDiziet: oh, your key's there already? No problem then.03:20
DizietOh, good :-).  Well, it was on the list so I did it (got James to do it).03:21
Dizietbob2: Yes, which is why a local cache would be better.  But.03:21
DizietI suppose you could do some kind of nightmare iptables forwarding hack.03:22
DizietBut I have an aversion to nightmare hacks :-).03:22
=== herzi [~herzi@d024213.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== NoSense [~kronoss@FW-7-250.go.retevision.es] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== mxpxpod [~BryanForb@wuw-ojr3gmca.dybb.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
pittielmo: please sync nagios03:25
KamionGod, I hate and despise non-unified diffs.03:25
=== xTina [~xTina@p54A261B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
TreenaksKamion: patch diff to exclude the other methods03:26
=== bddebian [~bddebian@user216-178-65-218.netcarrier.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
chmjKamion: unified should be set as default03:27
Dizietpatchutils seems to have something called `filterdiff' which converts.03:27
KamionI wonder if it can convert .rej files03:27
DizietNot, I just did google and grepping; I didn't actually run it or anything.03:27
Diziet.rej's are context diffs, aren't they ?03:28
DizietWhy oh why oh why oh why must everyone put grub or LILO in the MBR ?  I want the nice Debian MBR.03:28
Kamionsadly it seems not to be able to handle .rej03:29
=== mxpxpod [~BryanForb@wuw-ojr3gmca.dybb.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
KamionDebian doesn't use the mbr package by default any more either03:29
Dizietk: Presumably it was too simple and useful.03:29
Kamionit's entirely possible it simply got lost in the installer rewrite; I wasn't around ...03:30
DizietOh well, I have rescue media if it comes to that.03:31
jbaileymxpxpod: Did you system stay working?  Any idea how you got a corrupted install?03:46
mxpxpodjbailey: yeah, everything works now03:46
mxpxpodjbailey: no clue... it took me a couple of days to do the install, so that might have been a problem03:47
mxpxpodjbailey: I have a slow connection at home03:47
jbaileymxpxpod: =(  I guess.  It shouldn't have mattered, though.03:47
mxpxpodno, it shouldn't have03:47
mxpxpodoh well, it's fixed now :)03:47
mxpxpodand I figured out how to issue linux-wlan-ng commands from /etc/network/interfaces03:48
mxpxpodso I have my prism2 usb card working the ubuntu way03:48
=== Riddell [jr@muse.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
davyddaniels: alive?03:49
davydyour new X seems to have broken my laptop03:50
mxpxpodjbailey: now, if there was only a way to store configs in a database and have it go thru the db looking for ap's that it knows about...03:51
mxpxpodoh well, I have to go paint03:51
jbaileymx|gone: There was an udu spec on something like that, but I haven't followed it at all.03:52
seb128pitti: around?03:52
jdubmx|gone: networkmanager does that03:52
seb128pitti: could you have a look on http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/eggcups/cups-dbus.patch?rev=1.7&view=markup ?03:52
seb128considering this comment 03:52
seb128"Random note to CUPS distributors who may be running it as non-root:03:53
seb128You'll probably need to remove the bit in cups-dbus.patch that checks03:53
seb128getuid() to use the session bus.  Yes...it's an evil hack and should03:53
seb128probably go away anyways :)"03:53
mx|gonejdub: but does nm work with linux-wlan-ng?03:53
=== sladen [paul@starsky.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
seb128pitti: that's a patch for cups/dbus, so we can package eggcups (http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-announce-list/2005-June/msg00033.html)03:53
mdzlinux-wlan-ng isn't needed anymore in ubuntu, is it?03:54
Kamionmdz: it was last I checked03:54
seb128pitti: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2004-July/msg00126.html too03:54
Kamionfor prism USB devices03:54
mdzprism2_usb is in the default kernel03:54
Kamionbut the userspace control bits are not03:54
mx|gonemdz: prism2 usb devices don't take a lot of iwconfig commands03:54
Kamionwe have this conversation every time :-)03:55
mx|gonewland is not needed03:55
mx|goneand all the wlan.agent stuff03:55
=== xTina [~xTina@p54A261B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #ubuntu-devel []
mx|gonebecause ubuntu has an ifup-post.d (or something like that) script that handles all the stuff03:55
mdzKamion: and the outcome of the conversation is usually "let's just seed it"03:55
=== bradb [~bradb@modemcable082.64-130-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Kamionmdz: the outcome of the last conversation was me saying "my device didn't work; I installed linux-wlan-ng and it just worked"03:56
KamionI have one of these devices, it doesn't work without linux-wlan-ng in hoary03:56
Kamionunless you think the situation has changed in breezy03:56
mx|gonesame with in breezy03:56
pittimdz, Kamion: at least for my device it didn't change, I still need l-wlan-ng03:57
mx|gonebut you can use wlan_ng_* in /etc/network/interfaces to set your wlan-ng settings03:57
Kamionyou need wlanctl-ng and the /etc/network/if-*.d/ scripts, IIRC03:57
pittimx|gone: you can, but that still needs the package03:57
mx|gonepitti: correct03:58
=== mx|gone has a prism2 usb device and linux-wlan-ng installed
davydwhy is my X.org broken again?03:58
Treenaksit is?03:58
mx|goneit'd be nice if the wlan-ng guys would just make it so that iwconfig would work with prism2 usb devices03:58
mx|gonebut oh well03:58
mx|gonegotta go paint03:58
pittiseb128: right, the patch would use the session dbus with our cups, it should use the system bus03:59
bddebianIt'd be nice if USB just went away for anything except mice and keyboards. :-)03:59
davydI'm also not getting any EE in my error log03:59
mx|gonebddebian: yeah, tell that to broadcom (I wouldn't have to use a prism2 wlan device if they'd release the specs for the airport extreme)03:59
bddebianmx|gone: :-)04:00
bddebianmx|gone: PowerBook?04:00
davydhmm, does anyone know of recent X.org breakage?04:02
davydor is this something to do with whatever fix Daniel put in for my laptop04:03
Treenaksdavyd: it was fixed for me this morning04:03
davydthis is a 3rd of July build it says04:04
davydit simply refuses to start04:04
Treenaksdavyd: that might be b0rken then, yes04:04
davydbut logs no obvious error04:04
davydthis is whatever the latest thing that came from apt is04:04
Treenaksdavyd: I think gdm can't find X04:04
mx|gonebddebian: ibook04:04
davydTreenaks: I symlinked that back together04:04
davydTreenaks: /usr/X11R6/bin/X or whatever it is04:05
Treenaksdavyd: x-common of today fixed the mess04:05
Treenaksor at least04:05
bddebianmx|gone: Ah.  I had a Lucent working fine in a couple of PowerBooks :-)04:05
Treenaksa partof the symlink mess04:05
davydTreenaks: I have 1.0204:05
Treenaksme too04:06
davydTreenaks: where does your /etc/X11/X point to?04:07
Treenakslrwxrwxrwx  1 root root 17 2005-05-24 20:18 /etc/X11/X -> /usr/bin/X11/Xorg04:07
davydhmm, it just bails out04:09
davydthere is no error logged in my log04:09
davyda few warnings, but nothing that looks important04:09
davydwhat driver are you using?04:09
Kamionmx|gone: I just use a PCMCIA card in my PowerBook, but it's one of the models that actually *has* PCMCIA, unlike some04:10
=== bddebian should never have given away all his NewWorld PowerBooks.. :'-(
=== vedran [~konversat@se400.pppoe239.bih.net.ba] has joined #ubuntu-devel
elmoPreparing to replace libdevmapper1.01 2:1.01.00-4ubuntu2 (using .../libdevmapper1.01_2%3a1.01.03-1ubuntu1_amd64.deb) ...04:20
elmoupdate-rc.d: /etc/init.d/libdevmapper1.01 exists during rc.d purge (continuing)04:20
elmowhy is it doing purge on upgrade?04:21
elmowho Touch It Last(tm)?04:21
=== `anthony [~anthony@220-253-14-6.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== tritium [~tritium@12-208-96-155.client.insightBB.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== sfvt [~sfvt@egress.sbb.uvm.edu] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== sfvt [~sfvt@egress.sbb.uvm.edu] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"]
pittielmo: me04:24
pittielmo: the init script is not necessary any more04:24
=== sfvt [~sfvt@egress.sbb.uvm.edu] has joined #ubuntu-devel
elmook, so it's just a scary-but-harmless msg?04:24
pittielmo: so Debian removed it04:24
pittielmo: yes; I can try to quiet it down04:25
pittielmo: it first calls upgrade-rc.d remove and then rm -f's the script04:25
pittielmo: should probably be done the other way round then04:25
elmopitti: it's not a big deal, but might be nice to clean it up04:25
pittiright, will do04:26
Kamionhaving an init script in a sonamed library package is still crazy04:28
Kamionglad it got cleaned up for the future, at least04:28
DizietI have a keyboard here where the rubber end on one of the little fold-out feet has _melted_ leaving a gungy patch on the desk !04:28
pittiKamion: yes, that's why I wanted to merge that version :-)04:28
TreenaksDiziet: I had that with my laptop04:28
=== Kamion hides his blowtorch
TreenaksDiziet: it even came with spare rubber feet04:29
DizietThis is just a normal n-years-old desktop keyboard in a sensibly-temperatured spot.04:29
ogracosmic rays or air pollution, pick as you like ;)04:29
bddebianMaybe it's biodegradeable? :-)04:29
hungerDiziet: Which hell did you raise from that you consider keyboard melting environments to be sensibly-temperatured?!04:30
mjg59Diziet: Some of them liquify under pressure04:30
Kamionmdz: any opinions on where to publish non-primary-architecture CD builds? I'm currently thinking http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ports/daily/ etc.04:30
Dizietliquify under pressure ?!  A _foot_ ?  But I suppose that's the only explanation other than that some chemical I used to clean the desk (some time ago, I'm afraid) ate it.04:31
mdzKamion: something like /ports/ sounds sane04:31
mjg59Decstation 3000s were dreadful for that04:31
mjg59If you left them in one place for long enough, the feet would run04:31
hungermjg59: Great... running feet on a keyboard!04:32
DizietThis keyboard was made by Cherry.  And only one of the two feet has melted.04:32
davydmjg59: w00t for dodgy DEC rubber!04:33
=== wasabi_ [~wasabi@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== icaro [~icaro@adsl-ull-158-28.44-151.net24.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== NoSense [~kronoss@FW-7-250.go.retevision.es] has left #ubuntu-devel ["exit(0)"]
Keybukwhy is it always the package with 130 patches that fails, and not the one with 3 ?04:45
bddebianMoore's Laws?04:46
fabbioneKeybuk: otherwise it would spoil the fun?04:47
=== jdthood [~jdthood@x095.decis.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Dizietkeybuk: Patches are not a sign of good software, unfortunately.  And all too often they don't improve it, either.04:49
KamionI suspect the failure is an import failure rather than a failure of the software itself04:50
=== wasabi_ [~wasabi@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Keybukwell, the software I'm currently battling with is "vim"04:57
=== lamont [~lamont@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Keybukso I think both points are valid ;)04:57
Keybukthough this one looks like a Keybuk brain failure04:58
zygaKeybuk: what's wrong with everyone's favourite editor?04:58
Keybukemacs?  nothing, why? :)04:58
zygano, no04:58
zygaI said editor04:58
zyganot operating system 04:59
zygawhat's wrong with vim? :)04:59
Keybukcurrently?  it doesn't have anything in its .orig.tar.gz other than tarballs, but my OH SO CLEVER import stuff tries to branch it anyway05:00
Keybukand breaks05:00
=== wasabi_ [~wasabi@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Keybukthe fact that this is a pretty common occurance, and that the code that's broken is new, probably explains a lot05:03
zygaKeybuk: what's an .orig.tar.gz? original source tarball? like the one everyone can fetch from vim.org? 05:04
Keybukpart of a Debian source package05:04
Keybukis "supposed" to be the original source tarball05:04
Keybukbut the vim maintainer thinks he's clever, and the original tarball is actually inside this one05:04
lamontKeybuk: unless upstream has RFC's or such. :-(05:04
pittiKeybuk: he probably just tries to get features that dpkg should have *duck* :-)05:05
Keybukbut it _does_ :o)05:05
=== Keybuk points at Wig & Pen
lamontKeybuk: I thought you preferred people no patch source, but rather unpack a tarball...05:05
pittiKeybuk: sure, I'm looking forward to use that new format05:05
pittiKeybuk: is there dpkg-source -b support for that?05:06
Keybuknot yet05:06
Keybukwant to write it? :)05:06
pittiKeybuk: well, how do I test the new format then?05:06
zygaKeybuk: so .orig.tar.gz actually contains one .tar.gz with source? that makes no sense05:06
Keybukzyga: .tar.bz2 inside a .tar.gz05:06
pittizyga: it does make some sense05:07
zygaoh joy, compression05:07
pittizyga: that way, you can build your software in a directory build-tree/05:07
zygapitti: e17n me 05:07
pittizyga: so whatever you mess up in the build tree (experimental changes, autofuck tools changes, etc) will not mess up your source package05:07
zygapitti: like glibc does for egzample?05:07
Keybukglibc also has three upstream source tarballs05:08
pittizyga: glibc does multi-build, i. e. build the same source in different ways05:08
Keybukso has to tar them up05:08
=== Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel
pittizyga: otherwise you have to play dirty hardlink tricks or bluntly copy around files, which is error prone05:08
zygapitti: I copy files but then again the trees are small05:08
zygapitti: still I cannot see the point of doing two archives 05:09
pittizyga: if it weren't for the tarball-in-tarball oddness, a tar'ed original source and a build-tree is really a good solution05:09
zygabuild-tree could be made with just one, correct?05:09
pittizyga: well, you could recursively copy files from the top level dir into build-tree05:10
pittizyga: but this is still ugly IMHO05:10
zygaI'll see how vim's sources look05:10
zygaI still don't get it frankly :/05:10
pittizyga: try gnome-volume-manager if you want to see something small05:11
pittizyga: or sysfsutils, even smaller and much less build deps05:11
Keybukwhat difference does top-level or build-tree make?05:12
Keybukout of interest05:12
pittiKeybuk: debian/rules clean just rm -rf build-tree and is done05:12
Keybuksure, but that's just out-of-directory builds05:12
pittiKeybuk: with top-level, you have to reverse-apply all patches, autofoo stuff, and so on05:13
Keybukah, but you don't have to reverse-apply patches with W&P05:13
zygaBTW, I've recently started using one tool that made reading obscure code a bliss05:13
pittiKeybuk: sure, W&P is the solution we all waited for05:13
zygaI've put indent into my lessopen certain files05:13
pittiKeybuk: it's just that cdbs tarball.mk, dbs, etc. existed much earlier, so the folks got accustomed to these05:13
zygaall the code I've got from work is readable now :)05:14
Keybukhopefully I'll get some time at debconf05:14
tsengzyga: eh?05:14
pittiKeybuk: I basically want to be able to play with the source without spending much effort into not destroying source pkgs05:14
zygatseng: I've made .indent.pro-file 05:14
zygatseng: and then I run indent -st "$1" in lessopen05:15
zygatseng: this way I can read the code the way I like05:15
jbaileyKeybuk: When you're asking what's the difference, do you mean why not untar it in place/05:15
jbaileyKeybuk: with cdbs, I did it because the clean target then gets reduced to rm -rf build-tree.05:15
zygawhy can't the clean target ... clean 05:16
zyganot remove everything?05:16
zygadoes build-tree contain any source?05:16
jbaileyzyga: Upstream makefiles often suck and clean poorly.05:16
jbaileyThere's alot of Debian packages that you can't do "debuild; debclean; debuild" to because they leave crap lying around.05:16
jbaileyzyga: In a tarball build, yes.05:17
jbaileyUsually something libc build-tree/glibc-2.3.505:17
zygajbailey: I'm startting to get this05:17
jbaileyThen we have build-tree/libc-i386 build-tree/libc-i68605:17
jbaileyAnd when you want to clean the whole thing, rm -rf build-tree takes care of it all.05:17
jbaileyYou just need to make sure all your patches re in debian/patches correctly.05:18
pittizyga: also, I often play around with the source, insert some printfs here and there, apply some experimental patches which partly fail, etc.05:18
pittizyga: I can compile and re-compile in the build-tree, and am always able to get to a clean and consistent state05:18
zygahmm then the build tree *does* contain source05:19
zygaokay I've built g-v-m05:19
jdthoodWill Breezy have udev 0.060, or will it stay with 0.056?05:20
=== lakin [~lakin@dsl-hill-66-18-228-60-cgy.nucleus.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mx|gonebddebian: what did you give away all your pb's for?05:25
bddebianmxpxpod: Because I'm dumb?  I gave them to Debian, Hurd, and Grub hackers05:32
tsengbddebian: did you save me one?05:33
bddebiantseng: I have one OldWorld left but I think I gave away the AC adapter. :-(05:33
=== tseng wonders where you got so many
=== Mithrandir [~tfheen@c5100BC63.inet.catch.no] has joined #ubuntu-devel
bddebiantseng: When I worked at a big company I used to "borrow" the older models that just sat on the shelf.  A couple of them I bought off of e-bay.05:36
zygawhat are pbs?05:37
Simirawho was it that wanted me to bring Ubuntu t-shirts for sale on Debconf? *packing*05:37
bddebianzyga: ?05:38
zygawhat are pb's?05:39
=== zyga wonders if old powerbooks become 50% cheaper once intel based mac laptos happen
pittizyga: I really regret apple's decision05:41
pittizyga: my complete iBook takes about 10 W right now05:41
pittizyga: with pentium & co, this is certainly going to go up considerably05:42
zygapitti: mine takes zero - it's too pricy to buy05:42
pittihehe :-)05:42
Mithrandirpitti: why do you think so?  My x40 uses about 10W.05:42
zygapitti: I agree that intel is a power hog05:42
zygabut centrino is not prescott05:42
=== ivoks [~ivoks@lns01-0955.dsl.iskon.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel
pittiMithrandir: that's good, ok :-)05:43
Mithrandirbut then, IBM are _good_05:43
jdthoodI thought that one of Apple's reasons for switching to Intel was that the mobile versions of Intel's chips used less power.05:43
ivoksjdthood: yeah, one of reasons05:43
ivoksintel developed great wifi, but only for pc05:44
bob2x40s use special low-voltage pentium ms, tho05:44
tsengall pentium m's are low voltage05:44
lu|awayjdthood: vastly, vastly less power05:44
mjg59They're still faster than any Powerbook you're likely to find, though...05:44
hungerMithrandir: My ibm uses a bit more.... about 12W.05:44
ivokspitti: how's MTA? :)05:45
pittiivoks: runs fine, thanks again :-)05:45
ivoksdoh... no problem, really05:46
dilingerpitti: thanks for the dm patches; i'll get around to looking at it at debconf, when i actually have some of that oh-so-elusive free time05:48
pittidilinger: great, we'll meet there any way :-)05:49
=== xTina [~xTina@vpn2-dynip76.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== pitti [~pitti@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mxpxpodbddebian: well, those sound like good causes05:55
bddebianmxpxpod: I thought so :)05:56
mxpxpodbddebian: now, if HURD could only get on track...05:57
bddebianmxpxpod: I'm working on that too :-)05:57
=== ivoks [~ivoks@lns01-0955.dsl.iskon.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Keybukoh, good, vim also has a .svn directory in one of its patches06:02
zygaKeybuk: you woundn't want to miss it, would you ;)06:03
=== Keybuk wonders whether Norbert will be at debconf
Keybukif so, I'm having words06:04
=== Keybuk packs the clue-by-four
mdzwasabi: eclipse is looking spiffy06:07
mdztakes ages to start on my laptop, but looks good when it gets there06:07
mxpxpodmdz: kind of like oo.o2?06:10
=== mgalvin [~mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
lu|awayearly ooo2 builds were actually faster than ooo106:12
lu|awaynot anymore, jeez06:12
Keybukoh, look, another keybuk-being-an-idiot bug here too06:17
mdzmxpxpod: no, eclipse takes _much_ longer to start than oo.o206:17
mdzoo.o2 starts in a reasonable amount of time for me06:17
ograoh, i386 only...06:18
mxpxpodmdz: it takes forever for me... it didn't used to and now it uses some java stuff that slooooows it down06:18
mdzKamion: can we easily add memtest86 as a boot option on both install and live?06:18
mdzKamion: in isolinux, I mean06:20
Kamiongood question; I suppose I could just sellotape memtest86+.bin into the CD's filesystem somewhere06:20
Kamionnothing else is needed, is it?06:21
=== GNULinuxer [~ghoseb@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mdkeelmo, around?06:25
Kamionmdz: doing06:25
mdkemako, around?06:25
=== HWolf [~hidden@136.2.dynamic.phpg.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== henriquemaia [~henriquem@cb-217-129-174-207.netvisao.pt] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Kamionmdz: done, assuming I didn't screw it up; haven't documented it yet06:27
mdzKamion: fantastic, thanks06:28
mdzyeah, only memtest86+.bin is needed06:29
Kamioncalled it 'memtest'06:29
mdzKamion: what would be involved in adding a media-check option?06:31
mdzI guess it would need to ask the language question still06:31
mdzunless we can manage to move that out to the boot loader after all...infinity?06:31
Kamionnot necessarily06:31
Kamionif it were just an English media check, it could just boot with that main-menu option preselected06:32
mdzwell, it would be nice to be able to display the success/failure message localized06:32
mdzthough it is in color, I suppose, and so reasonably clear06:32
Kamionif it makes any difference, I suspect it will be an order of magnitude less work this way :)06:34
=== Kamion goes to see whether it works
=== r0bby [~wakawaka@cpe-204-210-133-115.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== blueyed [~daniel@i528C3EA0.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Kamionmdz: small main-menu hack required I think, but not too bad06:39
=== Mez [~mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Benoni [~liblit@adsl-68-78-233-184.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Mez [~mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
shwiiinganyone working on the live-cd?06:47
shwiiingyes shwiiing or yes Kamion ?06:49
=== Mez [~mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Zombsounds like a vorlon-style YES (as in b5, not Steve)06:52
Kamionshwiiing: it was to you06:55
shwiiingoki, i have some expirience with livecd devel. need any help?06:57
hungershwiiing: I bet they can take some help. Ubuntu has surprisingly few people.06:59
Kamionnote that the Ubuntu live CD is rather different from other live CD systems; it's almost entirely built out of the regular system07:01
Kamionthe piece that makes it into a live CD is casper ('apt-get source casper')07:01
Kamionwhich mdz maintains07:01
shwiiingi made one just like a normal distro, just wrote my own linuxrc and loaded the knoppix-autoconf script, and i was up and running07:03
shwiiingused unionfs and squashfs07:04
shwiiingwriteing the linuxrc file was realy tricky07:04
Kamionwe're very keen on sticking with the current broad outline since it provides many maintainability benefits, but improvements to the detail are of course very welcome07:04
Kamionwe tried the Morphix approach for Warty and had many problems07:05
shwiiingi know07:05
Zombbtw, the Ubuntu hw detection is crashing the kernel on my system while Sarge and Knoppix run fine07:05
Zombwho does care?07:05
KamionZomb: I'd care if given details ...07:05
Kamionalthough I'm not a kernel hacker, fabbione would be better07:06
KamionZomb: the Ubuntu hardware detection is basically just hotplug07:06
Zombthen I would ask fabbione 07:06
Kamionif that's crashing your kernel then it would be better described as your kernel crashing your kernel :-)07:06
ZombI think I have Cc'ed him already in some discussion about that07:06
shwiiingKamion, is there a website where i can get up to date with what you are working on?07:06
Kamionudu.wiki.ubuntu.com is the development website from our last conference, with goals and plans07:07
Kamion(although it'll be merged into wiki.ubuntu.com soonish)07:07
TreenaksKamion: any idea when the next conference will be?07:08
KamionTreenaks: I believe current plans are for October, shortly after the Breezy release; the business of having a conference very early in the release cycle worked out well this time07:09
shwiiingill take a look then07:09
=== martinhj [~martinhj@host-81-191-103-214.bluecom.no] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== zanaga [ejabberd@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== allee [~ach@allee.exgal.mpe.mpg.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
DizietThis network-manager package, erm, is it a package somewhere ?  Or did people who've tried it just `make install' ?  Or am I looking in the wrong places ?07:16
=== comadreja [~comadreja@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== stratus [~stratus@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
zanagaDiziet: it's in universe07:19
DizietOh, here it is.07:20
DizietI could swear I looked for it under `n' in pool but obviously I must have been wrong.07:21
=== lakin [~lakin@dsl-hill-66-18-228-60-cgy.nucleus.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
DizietAh, and the package search didn't get it 'cos I didn't spot that only hoary was selected.  I definitely need this coffee I have here.07:25
Lathiatdaniels: blah, x-common tries to overrwite /etc/X11/X which si also in xorg-common but xorg-common cant be upgraded until x-common is 07:26
Lathiatdaniels: doing a dpkg -i of xorg-common first gets around it, apt wont due to dep issues07:27
=== martinhj [~martinhj@host-81-191-103-214.bluecom.no] has joined #ubuntu-devel
thomDiziet: also, the package code is kept in the pkg-utopia svn repo on alioth07:36
thomDiziet: when you need commit privs for that, please let me know and i'll get that sorted07:37
thomDiziet: and, sorry for not having yet replied to your mail07:37
zanagaseb128: am i missing something with bug #12336 why are you trying to load the html in totem?07:38
infinityLathiat : The file moved from xorg-common to x-common, you mean?07:39
Lathiatinfinity: i think so,a dn that x-common is being installed first07:39
Lathiatthe X dependencies are in quite a mess actually07:39
Lathiatim having to randomly apt-get -f install, upgrade, dist-upgrade and manually install things to get this all to install07:39
Lathiatwithout wanting to do something like remove libxll-607:40
seb128zanaga: you said "usually the files just fail to play, even if the file07:40
seb128is supported in standalone totem.", I thought that was a redirection to the file or something07:40
zanagaseb128: ah, no.. it's just a html wrapper to force the media to play in firefox.. the real media is named test.ogg07:41
infinityLathiat : Erm, x-common doesn't contain any files in /etc...07:41
Lathiatalso installing say, ttf-punjabi-fonts (and lots fo other similar packages) i get lots of cannot exec /usr/X11R6/bin/mkfontdir from defoma stuff07:41
Lathiatinfinity: well uh, tahts the error i got07:41
Lathiatinfinity: if you want to try, install hoary, then try dist-upgrade to breezy07:42
infinityDefault desktop install?07:42
seb128zanaga: thanks, playing test.ogg from totem works fine ... now I can bug upstream07:42
azeemhttp://people.debian.org/~mbanck/photos/lsm_2005/img005.jpeg.html <- that's what happens if gentoo dudes need to quickly fix their machines07:42
infinityAlright, I'll play tomorrow when the new laptop gets here.  It'll need an OS anyway. :)07:43
Lathiatinfinity: :)07:43
Lathiatwhatcha gettin?07:43
jbaileyNice, I googled for 'rsync' cd image, and Ubuntu is #2.07:43
=== lamont lunches
infinityT43, 2GHz Pentium-M, 2GB of RAM, some other toys.07:43
zanagaseb128: great, i just wanted to file it in ubuntu bugzilla so that it doesn't get missed when breezy is released07:43
Lathiatinfinity: nice07:43
Lathiatinfinity: what size, gfx?07:43
seb128zanaga: np, that's fine like this, thanks07:43
Lathiatmy laptop is a 2ghz pentium-m07:43
Lathiatit needs more ram07:43
Lathiatbut its very nice07:43
infinityLathiat : Smallish (the T43 is sorta the middle road, size-wise, between tiny laptops like the X series and big desktop replacement stuff)07:44
Lathiatinfinity: so, 15"07:44
Lathiatmines 15.4" widescreen07:44
Lathiatvery nice07:44
infinityGraphics is just an X300.  And yeah, 15" 1400x1050.07:44
Lathiatsweet, same as mine then07:44
Lathiatjust not widescreen07:44
Lathiati find this a nice size07:44
Lathiati couldnt deal with less07:45
infinityTHe laptop's too small to be a widescreen.07:45
Lathiatits only 3.3kgs, so its portable07:45
infinityWhich is fine by me, I don't want something massive.07:45
Lathiatwouldnt want any bigger07:45
Lathiatthe thign for me, is i dont have a desktop, this is my only machine07:45
infinityAnyhow.  Severly off-topic we are, and I should go to bed.07:45
Lathiathehe ok night :)07:45
pittidoes anybody know how to get back PostScript fonts?07:46
pittiI can't display any pdf or ps file, everything is just empty...07:47
=== highvoltage [~Jono@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== terrex [~terrex@84-122-69-8.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Lathiathm, openoffice.org2 is unisntallable07:50
JanCI upgraded it yesterday?  (twice, in fact)07:51
JanCthis new OOo2 beta starts slower than the old OOo2 alpha though  :-/07:53
=== lu|away is glad to hear it isn't just me
highvoltageany ubuntu guys still in london?07:55
mdkeall well apparently07:55
highvoltageah, good.07:55
JanChighvoltage : canonical has offices in london07:55
highvoltagei know, sorry, should've been more specific with the question.07:55
=== Avlis_Ad [~adebarbar@labi.fi.uba.ar] has joined #ubuntu-devel
highvoltageis matt still there? i think he said he was leaving today.07:56
DizietI was supposed to be meeting mdz there.  I got as far as buying a ticket at Cambridge (looking at the departure displays thinking `well, it's a bit disrupted but I'lll just be half an hour late') before they told us there were no trains to London today.07:56
highvoltagethat's hectic.07:57
mdzhighvoltage: (yes, I'm here until tomorrow and am alive)07:57
highvoltagemdz: cool.07:57
=== herz1 [~herzi@d024213.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== jp [~jp@200-85-202-89.bk3-dsl.surnet.cl] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== herz1 [~herzi@d024213.adsl.hansenet.de] has left #ubuntu-devel []
highvoltageegh. not having an internet connection is killing me.08:12
Kamionmdz: tomorrow> that's what YOU think. it's all a plot to keep you locked in London.08:15
ograKamion, did vedran talk to you about the installer ? he's one of my students doing the lightweight desktop08:16
highvoltageKamion: this is starting to sound like a humorix conspiracy08:16
Kamionogra: no08:16
Kamionogra: or at least not that I remember08:17
=== Avlis_Ad [~adebarbar@labi.fi.uba.ar] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== terrex [~terrex@84-122-69-8.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== _Legion_ [~adebarbar@labi.fi.uba.ar] has joined #ubuntu-devel
highvoltagegood to see everyone is still alive. i need to go back home now, cheers!08:19
=== JanC [~janc@dD5764BEC.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== _Legion_ [~adebarbar@labi.fi.uba.ar] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== doko [~doko@a130-233-4-216.debconf5.hut.fi] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== jdthood [~jdthood@x095.decis.nl] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"]
dokopitti: ping08:42
carstenhdoko: he is not here08:43
ogradoko, ! how is finland ?08:45
=== swarm [~swarm@host177-44.pool8249.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel
dokoogra: just arrived. nice.08:51
ograhave something to shade your eyes to get some sleep ? 08:53
=== ogra remembers bergen had only 3h darkness per night
Simirawere you in bergen in june, ogra ?08:54
=== jdthood [~jdthood@x095.decis.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel
ogralots of rain :)08:55
ograbut you have a wonderful country over there :)08:55
jdthoodthom: Is there somewhere I obtain a network-manager deb?08:55
=== terrex [~terrex@84-122-69-8.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
ograjdthood, its in the archive08:56
ograjdthood, try http://packages.ubuntu.com/08:57
jdthoodogra: ooo, so it is.08:57
ograbut beware it still has issues08:57
ogra(like running a local bind9 server for caching)08:58
jdthoodogra: If you can read this then it's working.09:06
ograsure it works... but who wants to run a nameserver on a desktop :)09:07
tsengi do, if it means not opening consoles and playing with iwconfig all day09:07
jdthoodogra: There are good reasons for running a caching nameserver, at least.09:08
ograjdthood, bind9 ??09:08
jdthoodogra: I have used dnsmasq for a long time.  it is excellent.09:08
ograyes, thats a well sized solution for a desktop/laptop ....09:09
jdthoodogra: bind9 might be appropriate for some applications.  The point is that n-m should be able to integrate with either bind9 or dnsmasq.  or pdnsd.09:09
jdthoodogra: Even before n-m, we had correct handling of bind9, dnsmasq and pdnsd through resolvconf.09:10
ograthats what i meant with "it still has issues"09:11
jdthoodSo I am not sure that it will be necessary for n-m to continue to drag in bind9.09:11
Keybuk\o/  vim imported at last09:11
ogranew vim ?09:11
mxpxpodwhat do I do if I get an warning when resolvconf loads that resolv.conf isn't a symlink?09:11
jdthoodogra: Maybe n-m and bind9 are doing things together that are more intimate than we're aware of.09:11
Keybukogra: no, breezy vim, into baz09:12
ograjdthood, they do, but its possible t oimprove it :)09:12
zwnjhi there09:12
jdthoodmxpxpod: You are the victim of some package that has overwritten /etc/resolv.conf.  Using network-manager by any chance?09:12
=== marioch [~Mario@red-corp-] has joined #ubuntu-devel
zwnjany reason to not redirecting bugs.ubuntu.com to bugzilla.ubuntu.com?09:13
jdthoodmxpxpod: resolvconf Conflicts with every package in Debian that writes to /etc/resolv.conf.  resolvconf doesn't Conflict with network-manager (yet) because the latter isn't in Debian.09:13
ograKeybuk, ah.. 09:13
=== Keybuk moves onto the next failure in the list ... unsermake!
jdthoodmxpxpod: However, I have heard rumors that n-m is being modified to cooperate with resolvconf.09:14
jdthoodmxpxpod: To answer your question, what you need to do is remove the offending package and then "ln -sf /etc/resolvconf/run/resolv.conf /etc/resolv.conf"09:16
Lathiatseb128: the drivemoutn applet is having issues lately, it goes over the panel size, notably with cdroms, although tis doing it now without09:17
DizietOh, people talking about network-manager.  Hello.09:20
=== dr_kabuto [~dr_kabuto@ppp-94-223.25-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel
malexSo, restricted == contrib and multiverse == non-free?09:26
=== ivoks [~ivoks@lns01-1720.dsl.iskon.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel
wasabi_multiverse == contrib and non-free09:27
wasabi_restricted ~= both09:27
malexooer, ok. Thanks wasabi!09:28
=== terrex [~terrex@84-122-69-8.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== zwnj [~behnam@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== darkling [~hugo@81-5-136-19.dsl.eclipse.net.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Diziet is now known as Diz|away
mdkesmurfix, ping?09:46
smurfixmdke: 09:46
mdkerocket fast as always09:47
mdkesmurfix, actually can you give me 5 mins?09:47
smurfix5 mins before you say something, or 5 mins during which?09:47
mdkethe first one09:47
mdkesmurfix, okay here i am09:50
mdkesmurfix, ubuntu-it would like to take you up on the hosting offer09:50
smurfixemail me an SSH pubkey please (gpg-signed)09:52
=== lamont looks around for daniels, decides it's still mid-sleep-period for him
mdkesmurfix, i will see what I can do, I'm a bit inexperienced with ssh keys09:53
smurfixman ssh-keygen ;-)09:53
mdkewill do09:53
mdkesmurfix, any requirements as to the type of key or length?09:56
smurfixdsa is standard and the default 1024 bits probably sufficient09:56
=== koke_ [~koke@adsl229-164.unizar.es] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== ogra [~ogra@p5089E56A.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Verlassend"]
=== ogra [~ogra@p5089E56A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== terrex [~terrex@84-122-69-8.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Arrogance [~aks@CPE00112f96b894-CM001225423850.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== zanaga [ejabberd@] has left #ubuntu-devel []
=== rcliii [~rcliii@cpe-65-26-158-102.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Mez [~mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== TerminX [~terminx@terminx.envision7.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== jp [~jp@216-155-90-126.bk2-dsl.surnet.cl] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== dr88dr88 [~gerrit@h174040.upc-h.chello.nl] has left #ubuntu-devel []
jphi guys, I installed colony cd 2 and I updated, and gdm doesn't start, who have resolved it? Thanks guys :/10:37
jpI did some symlinks, but it doesn't start :/ says /usr/bin/X11/X cannot execute :/10:39
wasabi_Hmm. Ooo2 still dislikes my theme.10:39
=== mez_ [~mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
jpI did ln -sf /etc/X11/ /usr/bin/X11/ but it doesn't work too :/  who can say me what symlinks did to use xserver? :)10:41
torkeljp: try ln -s /usr/bin/Xorg /etc/X11/X10:43
=== mez__ [~mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
jptorkel: that didn't work, thanks btw10:47
=== malex [~malex@malex.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-devel
torkeljp: do you have a /usr/bin/Xorg ?10:49
torkeljp: you can also try with ln -sf /usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg /etc/X11/X10:51
jpok torkel let's do10:54
jpno :'(10:55
jptorkel, yes I have a /usr/bin/Xorg10:55
torkeland it still complains that it cannot execute /usr/bin/X11/X?10:56
jpyes :'(10:56
jp/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xinit/xserverrc: line 2: /usr/bin/X11/X cannot execute10:57
mdkesmurfix, still around?10:58
=== zenrox [~zenrox@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Mez [~mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
smurfixmdke: yo11:00
mdkesmurfix, can i fire some questions at you in PM?11:00
mdkeor here i guess11:00
=== zenrox [~zenrox@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
danielssudo rm -rf /usr/bin/X11 && sudo ln -s /usr/bin{,/X11}11:02
jplet's do it daniels thanks :)11:03
jpuhmm daniels: X: unable to open wrapper config file /etc/X11/Xwrapper.config /etc/X11/X is not executable :) things have changed =)11:06
jpI chmod it and now it only says: /etc/X11/X is not executable :)11:07
=== thesaltydog [~fabio@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== thesaltydog [~fabio@] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"]
=== seth_k [~seth@24-117-104-21.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Mez [~mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
TerminXwhat's the "accepted" fix for the xkbcomp problem?11:23
Mezsiretart: ping11:28
=== mdke_ [~matt@81-178-123-19.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== jp [~jp@200-126-69-32.bk5-dsl.surnet.cl] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== mdke__ [~matt@81-178-82-53.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
jphi jbailey, did you find some relations to the evo exchange bug? :/11:33
=== mdke__ is now known as mdke
jbaileyjp: I haven't been working on that, sorry.  11:38
jbaileyjp: You mentioend that you were going to check upstream bugzilla.  Did you find anything?11:38
jpjbailey I find but I didn't found :/11:41
jpso let's report it? I'll find again, and then I'll report it there jbailey :)11:41
Burgundaviajdub, new nautilus look for breezy11:43
tsengBurgundavia: eh?11:43
Burgundaviaboth jdub and I like the look for thunar11:43
Burgundaviawhich can now be done with nautlius11:43
tsengthe spatial tree view?11:44
Burgundaviathis one: http://thunar.xfce.org/wiki/media/ui/suggestion-20050320/shortcuts_buttons.png11:44
tsengoh yes11:44
tsengbookmark sidebar11:44
Burgundaviaand the top row of buttons, ala gtk file chooser11:45
wasabi_I wouldn't mind that.11:45
tsengdoes nautilus have the later?11:45
wasabi_I think the bookmars might be a bit annoying after awhile11:45
Burgundavianew plugin just merged11:45
Burgundaviaspecifically --> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/nautilus-list/2005-July/msg00026.html11:45
Burgundaviait would be single window, ala the OS X finder11:46
=== Simira [~rpGirl@host-81-191-115-46.bluecom.no] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Burgundaviatseng, do you like the idea?11:46
wasabi_Should just make Nautilus itself the FileOpenDialog like MS did11:46
tsengBurgundavia: sure11:46
Burgundaviawasabi, that was my next crazy thought11:47
tsengwasabi_: ...11:47
wasabi_WHy ...?11:47
wasabi_Code resuse.11:47
tsengthats bogus11:47
wasabi_It makes absolute sense to reuse nearly all of hte visual elements.11:47
wasabi_MS hit that point too.11:47
Burgundaviaconsistent interface?11:47
wasabi_Everybody always whines about that.11:47
wasabi_But the fact is, it only makes sense technically.11:47
Burgundaviait does make sense from a design pov as well11:48
Burgundaviaand a usability one11:48
wasabi_The file browsing interface becomes a generic library with a view component and hooks to plug in special features11:48
=== lupus1010 [~lupus@dD5772F3C.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel
wasabi_nautilus becomes a consumer, as does the FileOpen dialog11:48
wasabi_In MS's case they wanted to put HTML in both, and so IE came in too.11:49
Burgundaviaoh joy11:49
Burgundaviacan we leave out that part?11:49
wasabi_You haven't seen the Office WebDAV interface.11:49
wasabi_It's pretty slick.11:49
tsengwasabi_: except that the gtk team and the nautilus team would be working on the same code11:49
tsengwasabi_: with different release cycles11:49
Burgundaviathe outlook web stuff in IE is pretty slick too11:49
wasabi_tseng, the curse of not working in the same building on the same project.11:49
tsengit doesnt make that much sense in real life11:49
tsengas it does in theory11:50
Burgundaviathe gtk people are trying to sync their releases to gnome, from what I understand11:50
jpjbailey, Evolution bugs have been migrated to bugzilla.gnome.org. So I'll search there..11:51
wasabi_WebDAV interface.11:52
jbaileyjp: Oh?  Cool.  I didn't think they'd get aroudn to that.11:52
wasabi_The webdav server serves the interface as HTML.11:52
Burgundaviasorry, that is butt ugly and completely different from any other interface11:52
wasabi_Oh yeah, I agree.11:52
Burgundaviabut the idea may be workable11:52
jpjbailey yep :/11:52
wasabi_I think the specific implemenation may suck.11:52
Burgundaviaas usual with MS, they have great ideas, but their implementations suck11:52
wasabi_Basically though, if the webdav serves HTML in the right way, office can save to it.11:53
wasabi_And it has a special server-delivered interface11:53
wasabi_We use it for document management stuff.11:53
BurgundaviaI once read a thing about board game designing (but it applies here). I was about good ideas and how cheap they are11:53
jpjbailey, :) http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30795611:54
wasabi_Notice the special additions.11:54
wasabi_"Checked Out Too"11:54
jpthere's the bug :P11:54
Burgundaviathat can be done within an existing interface11:54
Burgundaviawithout needing to completely redesign the open dialog window11:54
wasabi_Yeah, it can be done with gtk and nautilus using the same interface.11:54
wasabi_Supporting the same plugins.11:54
=== hunger [~tobias@p54A64010.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #ubuntu-devel ["...]
=== HWolf [~hidden@136.2.dynamic.phpg.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
wasabi_All the explorer plugins that I have installed, such as TortoiseSVN, which allows me to deal with SVN working copies, are all present anywhere a file tree is.11:55
wasabi_Explorer, Open/Save, most tree views in apps.11:55
jbaileyWTF?  ephy is so confused.11:56
jbaileyjp: I'll add myself to the cC: list as soon as I can convince it to let me log in.11:56
Burgundaviawasabi, MS has a history of completely redesigning interfaces, seemingly for the sake of doing so11:56
wasabi_What do you call what we do?11:57
jpjbailey ok :)11:57
wasabi_As time goes on, changes are though up which may increase usibility. Some don't, some do.11:57
wasabi_(spatial anyone?)11:57
wasabi_(new nautilus interface discussed 5 minutes ago)11:57
Burgundaviaspatial is a good idea11:57
Burgundaviawe just are not complete there yet11:57
wasabi_I think spatial blows goats. =)11:57
wasabi_And I think MS's HTML interface blows goats.11:57
wasabi_But apparerently some people like it.11:58
wasabi_I shall not insult either group.11:58
Burgundaviadid you see my rant about XP on p.u.c?11:58
Burgundaviato think I used to use windows 100% of my day11:58
=== jdthood [~jdthood@aglu.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel
jdthoodthom: ping11:59
wasabi_one sec reading11:59
wasabi_First complaint you list is one that is not considered a bad thing by a lot of people.12:00
wasabi_Myself included.12:00
Burgundaviaone giant menu?12:00
wasabi_second thing.12:00
wasabi_I go to www.superprogram.com, download SUper Program 3.0 and install it. It appears in my menu as Super Program 3.0, not "Generic Program That Does Something". I know what to look for before I get there.12:00
wasabi_And everytime I go there, I know it by name.12:01
Burgundaviathat works if you know what you are looking for12:01
Burgundaviaand is very application centric12:01
wasabi_When I pay for it, it shows up on my bill as SuperCompany.com12:01
Burgundaviait falls apart when you have no idea what you are looking for, but know what you want to do12:01
wasabi_Exactly. Both things are valid.12:01
Burgundaviawhich I would say is more important12:01
wasabi_MS and Apple solved it fairely reasonably.12:02
wasabi_MS called their text editor notepad. Which is fairly obvious as to function.12:02
wasabi_Mail is pretty clear too.12:02
Burgundaviaoutlook? evolution?12:02
Burgundaviathese are not clear application names12:02
wasabi_You're right, the problem with them is one of our community.12:02
wasabi_We have 4 PDF viewers.12:03
Burgundaviawe know have one12:03
wasabi_And a billion mail readers.12:03
wasabi_Okay, good.12:03
Burgundaviawindows has just as many mail readers12:03
wasabi_Yeah, and they're known by name.12:03
wasabi_I like Apple's idea. THe bundled stuff becomes generic.12:03
wasabi_And it becomes pruned down.12:03
wasabi_But third party stuff stays as it is.12:03
Burgundaviathat is what gnome is also trying to do12:03
Burgundaviathe only place the word evince appears anywhere in the interface is in the about box12:04
Burgundaviaoh wait, it appears in the menu item as well12:04
wasabi_Rhythmbox was a specific complaint I had, but that's been addressed.12:04

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!