[12:09] <ompaul> whats the eta on colony 3?
[12:11] <mdke> we only just had colony 2
[12:13] <ompaul> mdke, this is true, but august is really close, I was going to wait till after the weekend if it was due out between now and Monday
[12:13] <usual> is X borked in breez?
[12:13] <ernstp> usual, X is great in breez
[12:13] <seth_k> sort of
[12:13] <seth_k> takes some fixing but works fine
[12:13] <usual> which s it
[12:13] <usual> ok
[12:13] <seth_k> i'm running it right now on two machines
[12:13] <usual> I get errors about X not exisiting
[12:14] <mdke> usual, did you update?
[12:14] <usual> mdke, not today but todays updates for me were nothing but openoffice
[12:14] <usual> mdke, I updated yesterday and X went south
[12:14] <mdke> i think it should be fixed either now or very soon
[12:14] <usual> k
[12:15] <usual> no biggie of course I expect it with the unstable but if there was a fixI would certainly want it :)
[12:15] <seth_k> usual: what error do you get?
[12:15] <mdke> i think its a sym link needed
[12:15] <mdke> but not sure
[12:15] <mdke> best to check bugzilla and see if there is a fix
[12:15] <usual> seth_k, not exactly sure at the moment as I am not on that box but it was something along the lines of X can't be found or doesn't exist
[12:15] <usual> k
[12:16] <seth_k> usual: the only problems I'm seeing this week are "X not executable" errors, which can be solved with:
[12:16] <seth_k> sudo ln -sf /usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg /etc/X11/X
[12:16] <seth_k> ymmv
[12:16] <usual> k
[12:17] <usual> lemme try that
[12:17] <usual> thanks
[12:20] <lamont> pitti: best SASL/postfix docs are bugs filed against postfix/postfix-tls asking me to automate it, in the debian bts... a couple of them have the steps required... :(
[12:20] <pitti> lamont: thanks for the hint :-)
[12:20] <pitti> lamont: so far I successfully converted from exim to postfix on my server
[12:48] <mrd`> Anyone else having problems with linux-image-2.6.12-3-k7?  Whenever I boot it, top shows 80+% of my CPU time being used and powernowd steps up my processor to full speed, but no apps actually seem to be using anywhere near that much CPU time.  linux-image-2.6.12-2-k7 works fine, however.
[12:49] <seth_k> mrd`: I'm using that exact version (k7 even), and I'm having issues with my system clock running about 20x too fast
[12:50] <mrd`> Hm.
[12:50] <seth_k> I went back to 2.6.10 for now
[12:50] <seth_k> the funny thing is my laptop is running 2.6.12 and has no issues
[12:50] <seth_k> just the desktop
[12:51] <mrd`> Is the laptop running 2.6.12-3-k7 or a different 2.6.12 kernel?
[12:51] <lamont> pitti: and I'm a slacker... it's on my list of things to try to have done for breezy (selfsigned cert for SASL/TLS, config by default, with debconf questions to DTRT)
[12:51] <seth_k> oy, true. the laptop is running -686
[12:51] <seth_k> they are both running -3
[12:52] <mrd`> Hm.
[12:52] <mrd`> There doesn't seem to be a linux-image package.
[12:54] <lamont> mrd`: you might try linux-image-386...  there should be a linux-image-k7 as well
[12:55] <mrd`> lamont: I don't see anything prefixed with linux-image.
[12:56] <mrd`> In Ubuntu's bugzilla.
[12:56] <lamont> ah, for that you may want to just use linux-source-2.6.12 or so
[12:56] <lamont> worst case, you file it against unknown
[12:56] <ivoks> that reminds me...
[12:56] <chrissturm> isnt the package just "linux"?
[12:57] <ivoks> we should configure Maildir/ not mbox for ubuntu
[12:57] <mrd`> Oh, d'oh.
[01:25] <Burgundavia> seb128, services-admin appears to use it own authentication dialog
[01:26] <seb128> Burgundavia: right, the desktop is not patched to use gksudo ... I'll fix that
[01:27] <Burgundavia> seb128, cheers
[01:27] <Burgundavia> is the us.archive still having md5 sum issues?
[01:32] <seth_k> Burgundavia: nalioth says yes
[01:33] <seth_k> Burgundavia: I haven't had any recently, but maybe some packages?
[01:33] <Burgundavia> ok
[01:34] <seth_k> Burgundavia: somebody just had one with audacity as I was typing :P
[01:35] <Burgundavia> ok
[01:35] <seth_k> nalioth reports GB archive also experiencing issues
[01:36] <Burgundavia> hmm
[01:36] <Burgundavia> I have had no issues with the CA archives
[01:38] <seth_k> try Audacity
[01:38] <seth_k> CA == US, and somebody just reported that package had a mismatch on US
[01:41] <doko> fabbione: OOo2 1.9.113-1ubuntu2 will be built using g++-3.4 on sparc. please retry
[01:50] <mgalvin> hey all, has any else noticed this
[01:50] <mgalvin> Failed to fetch http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/libs/libsndfile/libsndfile1_1.0.10-2_i386.deb  MD5Sum mismatch
[01:50] <seth_k> indeed
[01:51] <seth_k> us mirror is having issues
[01:51] <mgalvin> ah, ok, thnx
[01:51] <seth_k> you can switch to http://archive.ubuntu.com in /etc/apt/sources.list if you want
[01:51] <seth_k> e.g., remove all the "us."
[01:51] <mgalvin> at least its not just me
[01:51] <mgalvin> i will do that for now, thnx
[01:57] <ogra> 
[01:57] <Burgundavia> 
[01:57] <Burgundavia> oh, you can do that
[01:57] <mgalvin> ah thats wicked slow 3000B/s 10 min to d/l Packages file, ouch
[02:03] <pitti> night, guys
[02:04] <shackan> night pitti boy :D
[02:30] <tiglionabbit> hello.  I am not part of development, but may I suggest that there be implemented a way to use the gui file browser with admin privileges in a later version?  Some ubuntu users want to edit their config files using the gui, as they do not know how to use the terminal properly
[02:30] <mrd`> Why does the file browser need to run as root to edit config files?
[02:31] <tiglionabbit> something like an entry in applications -> system tools for "Root File Browser" ( gksudo nautilus )
[02:31] <crimsun> they already can using gksudo $app
[02:31] <tiglionabbit> crimsun: what if they don't know to type that, and do not want to open a terminal?
[02:31] <tiglionabbit> perhaps better then, add an entry to the right-click menu in nautilus for "Edit as Root" or something?
[02:32] <crimsun> tiglionabbit: they can still use the Run menu entry
[02:32] <mrd`> That's probably a better choice than running all of nautilus as root.
[02:33] <tiglionabbit> true.  Seveas tells me that running nautilus as root will screw up Xauthority and cause a user to not be able to log in
[02:34] <tiglionabbit> hm, I suppose run application would work.  I could just advise people to type "gksudo gedit" and the absolute path to the config file
[02:34] <tiglionabbit> or just have them open it from gedit.  Anyway thanks
[02:36] <chrissturm> it would be cool if i could just drag some file to some folder, nautilus would see that it cannot copy there, and ask if i want to copy with gksudo
[02:36] <seth_k> chrissturm++
[02:37] <tiglionabbit> chrissturm: I think what would be the best possible solution is, if there were a way the standard editors like gedit could call gksudo when they reach a permissions problem, rather than just saying it couldn't be written
[02:38] <tiglionabbit> but the root file browser would be good just to be able to create directories and touch files
[02:39] <bddebian> Standard editors like nano you mean? ;-P
[02:39] <tiglionabbit> gui editors.  If they already can use nano, then they already know how to use the terminal, so there's no problem telling them to sudo that
[02:39] <tiglionabbit> I'm talking about waaay newbies
[02:40] <chrissturm> tiglionabbit, can unix processes sudo themselves, or is it just possible to start new processes as root?
[02:40] <tiglionabbit> hm, the latter
[02:41] <tiglionabbit> wow, I hadn't experimented with gedit.  It doesn't even let you mess with the file at all, does it
[02:41] <chrissturm> tiglionabbit, so they would need to copy the file to tmp, and then move it with a new process
[02:42] <HrdwrBoB> there is a wrapper for it
[02:42] <HrdwrBoB> sudoedit I think
[02:42] <HrdwrBoB> it starts $EDITOR iirc
[02:42] <mrd`> It would be relatively simple to do something like fork a new process, and exec in that process "gksudo tee $file" and then write your data into that process's stdin.
[02:42] <tiglionabbit> oo, sudoedit runs nano for me
[02:43] <mrd`> (Though, I don't know if it's possible to tell if/when gksudo succeeded.)
[02:44] <tiglionabbit> Hmm, perhaps in breezy you could add sudoedit as one of the default context menu items, and set the editor to something gui users would like?
[02:45] <tiglionabbit> and also, instead of having the create directory/folder items greyed out, have them call gksudo mkdir and such
[02:45] <HrdwrBoB> better off to make gedit ask you for sudo
[02:46] <HrdwrBoB> rather than a secondary option
[02:46] <tiglionabbit> and add the $EDITOR to "preferred applications"
[02:46] <HrdwrBoB> f.e. [ This file is not editable by you, it's likely this is a system file and editing may change or damage your system. To open it, enter your password and hit ok, to close, hit cancell
[02:48] <tiglionabbit> alright, however you want to handle it.  I'm just finding the joy of Ubuntu here, I can actually recommend it to people who prefer to use gui interfaces
[02:50] <daniels> pittyeah
[02:50] <daniels> Kamion: yah, will be fixed in -35
[02:54] <chrissturm> what can be the reason if xorg throws a signal 11 at startup?
[02:55] <HrdwrBoB> buggy radeon binary drivers
[02:56] <chrissturm> it works with my radeon drivers, but on my notebooks i810 it signal 11s
[02:56] <daniels> huh
[02:56] <daniels> chrissturm: you're running dual-head, aren't you?
[02:59] <chrissturm> daniels: nope. strange thing is it works now after i removed xserver-common, and reinstalled it
[03:00] <daniels> ... errr
[03:00] <Keybuk> daniels: why doesn't 3d work on my radeon?  *stamps foot*
[03:05] <daniels> Keybuk: because it hates you, and wants you to die
[03:05] <Keybuk> :'(
[03:06] <bddebian> eeks
[03:06] <bddebian> Brutal group :-)
[03:36] <Keybuk> it's all about the CYCLONE
[03:36] <Keybuk> THE CYCLONE OF HATE
[03:36] <bddebian> Sheesh
[03:38] <Keybuk> you don't believe me?
[03:46] <bddebian> Keybuk: I believe EVERYTHING you say ;-)
[03:46] <Keybuk> heh
[03:46] <daniels> bddebian: you fool
[03:47] <rob^> whats the Java (J2SE) package called in Breezy?
[03:47] <rob^> just java-common?
[03:47] <Keybuk> Once upon a time at the foot of a great mountain, there was a town where the people known as Happy Folk lived...
[03:47] <wasabi> rob^, j2se package?
[03:47] <bddebian> java-sucks?
[03:47] <wasabi> You mean a java virtual machine?
[03:47] <wasabi> We have a number.
[03:48] <wasabi> java-gcj-compat is what we're going with right now
[03:48] <rob^> yes, java virtual machine
[03:48] <rob^> for apps
[03:48] <wasabi> Depends which app
[03:48] <rob^> azureus for one
[03:48] <wasabi> We can't run it.
[03:48] <wasabi> Get Sun's.
[03:49] <rob^> just need some info for the FAQ
[03:49] <wasabi> You mean on a wiki?
[03:49] <rob^> no, in the svn repo
[03:49] <wasabi> FOr azureus itself?
[03:49] <rob^> no, the official ubuntu one
[03:50] <wasabi> Somebody made that.
[03:50] <wasabi> I don't have an opinion on it at all.
[03:51] <rob^> we are rewriting parts of it with the idea that it will be released with Breezy, so I just need to know if any sought of Java VM style package is included or do we still need to download Suns one
[03:53] <tiglionabbit> say, is there any gui way to "Move" or "Copy" admin files?
[03:53] <tiglionabbit> or any in plans
[04:02] <wasabi> rob^, no Sun JVM package will ever be included.
[04:02] <wasabi> Unless Sun changes their license.
[04:02] <wasabi> But we have a number of free alternatives which are rapidly improving. We have Eclipse running.
[04:02] <rob^> ok
[04:02] <wasabi> And work on Azureus is proceeding (you will be able to apt-get install it probably breezy+1)
[04:02] <rob^> I will add that people need to download it from sun
[04:03] <rob^> thanks
[04:03] <wasabi> I won't ever personally recommend you download anything from Sun.
[04:03] <wasabi> However it's an option. :0
[04:03] <rob^> :0
[04:03] <rob^> :)
[04:07] <bddebian> What about blackdown?
[04:09] <wasabi> Blackdown is no differnet from Suns.
[04:09] <wasabi> In fact it is Suns.
[04:11] <bddebian> Oh. Hmm
[04:13] <rob^> does it work?
[04:14] <wasabi> No idea.
[04:33] <daniels> ugh
[04:33] <daniels> Kamion: ping
[04:42] <whiprush> jdub: ping.
[04:45] <jdub> whiprush: pong
[04:46] <whiprush> I've been playing with the new nautilus side panel thinger. thoughts?
[04:46] <whiprush> wrt. what we discussed at UDU?
[04:46] <jdub> places? yeah. very happy to see it.
[04:51] <bddebian> Anyone know if us.archive.ubuntu.com has problems?
[04:52] <seth_k> it does indeed
[04:52] <seth_k> fairly large ones
[04:52] <seth_k> i've been recommending a switch from us.archive to archive.
[04:52] <bddebian> It seems this has been ongoing.  What gives?
[04:52] <seth_k> note that CA archive is the same machine as US
[04:52] <seth_k> dunno what gives
[04:53] <bddebian> mwuhaha
[04:53] <bddebian> Better not tell those Canuks that.. ;-P
[04:56] <robitaille> seth_k: for a while (1-2 weeks ago?) us.archive DNS  was pointing to archive. (just after the last set of problems with the mirror).  Obviously that DNS change was reverted at one point...
[04:58] <seth_k> robitaille: thanks for the heads up. what causes the md5 errors?
[04:59] <robitaille> I have no idea...
[05:00] <bddebian> Usually corrupt package files but I'm not sure that is what's happening here.  Unless the files are getting corrupted on the download?
[05:01] <robitaille> Interestingly I just noticed that ca.archive is pointing to archive tonight; not at us.archive as it is usually the case.
[05:02] <robitaille> That explains why the 2   packages I just installed didn't generate any errors
[05:03] <bddebian> Hmm, odd
[05:03] <rob^> !w32codecs
[05:03] <rob^> oops
[05:04] <bddebian> heh
[05:18] <daniels> gar, xorg is snowballing again :\
[05:18] <bddebian> snowballing?
[05:19] <daniels> ending up in one huge release
[05:19] <bddebian> Ah
[05:20] <daniels> daniels@brainfreeze:~/canonical/xorg% debdiff old/xorg_6.8.2-34.dsc xorg_6.8.2-35.dsc | diffstat | tail -1
[05:20] <daniels>  194 files changed, 1734 insertions(+), 4063 deletions(-)
[05:20] <seth_k> oy
[05:20] <seth_k> release of doom
[05:21] <daniels> even better than that is the post-hoary stat
[05:21] <daniels> daniels@brainfreeze:~/canonical/xorg% debdiff hoary/xorg_6.8.2-10.dsc xorg_6.8.2-35.dsc | diffstat | tail -1
[05:21] <daniels>  435 files changed, 189075 insertions(+), 36648 deletions(-)
[05:21] <daniels> which isn't counting all the work that's gone on in the external packages
[05:21] <luis_> time-based release!
[05:22] <bddebian> hehe
[05:28] <daniels> luis_: ha
[05:29] <luis_> seriously, though, that does help prevent that exact problem
[05:30] <daniels> luis_: sure, but even if I upload it a day later that I hope (which may well happen), that's still only been since monday
[05:30] <daniels> modularisation helps more, really
[05:31] <daniels> xorg uploads are frigging unwieldy at the moment
[05:31] <daniels> and I feel guilty about having done 24 since hoary
[05:32] <calc> daniels: good job with the updates :)
[05:33] <calc> daniels: so is the source itself going to be split out as well?
[05:33] <daniels> calc: totally
[05:33] <calc> istr something about that with 6.9?
[05:33] <daniels> nah
[05:34] <daniels> 6.9 and 7.0 will release in parallel with the same code
[05:34] <calc> ah ok
[05:34] <daniels> but 6.9 will be an imake monolith, 7.0 will be autotooled and modular
[05:34] <daniels> i've been nibbling at the tree from the bottom
[05:34] <calc> great
[05:35] <calc> oh btw -34 didn't seem to fix the /etc/X11/X symlink it was left dead
[05:36] <calc> iirc it was pointing to /usr/bin/X11/Xorg
[05:36] <calc> i manually pointed it at /usr/bin/X11/bin/Xorg
[05:46] <daniels> /usr/bin/X11/bin/Xorg is quite obviously broken
[05:46] <daniels> /usr/bin/X11 should be pointing at /usr/bin; if it's not, that's a separate issue
[05:55] <infinity> That issue exists because /usr/bin/X11 didn't properly get turned into a symlink, so the ln -s ../bin /usr/bin/X11 landed in the directory, rather than replacing it.
[05:56] <infinity> (I really hate thast ln behaviour, BTW... Very inintuitive)
[05:56] <infinity> "Of course I wanted a link called "bin" in that directory, thanks!"
[05:56] <bddebian> Aye
[05:58] <infinity> I guess it's intuitive from the "behaves like cp and mv" perspective, but who uses ln "as if they were copying a file"?
[05:59] <bddebian> I just do that
[05:59] <bddebian> Happy now? :-)
[05:59] <infinity> Thrilled.
[05:59] <infinity> daniels : Still want me to fix x-common, or have you done so already?
[06:00] <infinity> daniels : I can do it in the next hour or so.
[06:13] <daniels> infinity: there's another ULI in ti for you
[06:13] <infinity> Hot diggity.
[06:14] <daniels> infinity: make it two if you want to finish modularising the server
[06:14] <bddebian> ULI in ti?  Eeks
[06:14] <daniels> 'ultimate long island in it'
[06:14] <daniels> (incidentally, for shits and giggles, try googling for 'clueless noob', with or without quotes)
[06:14] <infinity> I want it finished, but I don't want to finish it. :)
[06:15] <daniels> i need to sort it on the weekend
[06:15] <daniels> no idea when, thought
[06:15] <bddebian> daniels: Are you trying to tell me something? :-)
[06:15] <daniels> between stuff on friday night, stuff on saturday afternoon, stuff on saturday night ...
[06:17] <infinity> daniels : Is that my cue to recompile my entire system against a different libc?
[06:21] <daniels> infinity: different libc?
[06:23] <fabbione> morning
[06:23] <infinity> daniels : The 'clueless noob' -> drepper connection.
[06:24] <daniels> oh, right
[06:24] <daniels> not really, just entertaining
[06:24] <daniels> the power of Planets and all that
[06:39] <infinity> Does anything actually install files in /usr/bin/X11?
[06:41] <infinity> Oh, yay.  xserver-xorg does.  (why?)
[06:41] <daniels> nothing in breezy does, no
[06:42] <daniels> uhm, not any more.  Contents needs updating.
[06:42] <daniels> i fixed that particular brain damage in -34.
[06:42] <infinity> Ah.  Xorg moved to /usr/bin, then?
[06:42] <daniels> (i just zgrepped Contents as well)
[06:42] <daniels> well, it's still in /usr/X11R6/bin, but the symlink moved to /usr/bin
[06:42] <infinity> Check.
[06:42] <infinity> So, why do we even care about having the directory/symlink at all?
[06:43] <daniels> fhs, more or less
[06:43] <daniels> x shit is defined to be available in /usr/bin/X11
[06:43] <daniels> \o/
[06:43] <infinity> Joy.
[06:52] <fabbione> humpf.. this piece of crap is a catch 22
[07:05] <infinity> Yeargh.  When did debdiff stop working for native packages?
[07:05] <infinity> Feh.
[07:07] <daniels> gar
[07:07] <daniels> no keybuk, either
[07:07] <daniels> anyone know how to do funky inclusion with automake?
[07:07] <infinity> daniels : http://lucifer.0c3.net/~adconrad/x-common.diff
[07:07] <infinity> Erm, but ignore debian/bar.
[07:07] <daniels> i need to generate a Makefile with a shell-script at build-time (either ./configure or from within the Makefile), but I can't seem to get an include in
[07:08] <infinity> (was a test file)
[07:09] <infinity> daniels : If you're positive nothing should ever be living in /usr/bin/X11 on a user's system, then you can just rm -rf it, but the warning should be harmless if 99.9% of people won't ever see it anyway.
[07:10] <infinity> (Have we accidentally created any files in /usr/bin/X11 along the way, other than "bin"?
[07:10] <infinity> )
[07:11] <daniels> infinity: not that I'm aware of -- rm -rf should be safe
[07:11] <daniels> btw, I can't connect to lucifer.  chuck it on rookery, willya?
[07:11] <infinity> Oh, duh.
[07:11] <infinity> http://cerberus.0c3.net/~adconrad/x-common.diff
[07:11] <infinity> Using an A record with a private address is smart, Adam.  Yes.
[07:12] <daniels> heh
[07:12] <mae> what do you all use as a development environment for GTK+ apps
[07:12] <infinity> rm -rf is safe from the POV of dpkg (ie: we don't ship any files there), but users may prefer not to lose stuff they dropped there with "make install" at some point.  Hence the warning instead.
[07:13] <daniels> infinity: looks good to me
[07:13] <infinity> If you're pretty sure users won't have shit there anyway, then we can toss it.  Then again, if users wouldn't ever have stuff there, why is it in the FHS? :)
[07:13] <infinity> (WHich leads me to believe someone might)
[07:14] <daniels> mmm, probably safer just warning and/or bombing
[07:15] <infinity> Yeah.  I like the warning, since bombing the postinst doesn't really help anyone.
[07:15] <infinity> So, I'll just upload this.
[07:16] <daniels> a shell script that generates a huge chunk of a Makefile, that gets read into a variable in ./configure, and substituted in-place to the generated Makefile
[07:16] <infinity> You're still not sleeping properly, are you?
[07:17] <daniels> never better
[07:18] <infinity> Oh.
[07:18] <infinity> Well, shame about your drug habit, then.
[07:20] <daniels> worship the crack, dude
[07:21] <daniels> gah, it's really not liking these newlines
[07:26] <daniels> hm, found a slightly less crackful way to master this
[07:50] <fabbione> AHGHHHHHHHH
[07:50] <fabbione> GOT IT !
[07:50] <Lathiat> daniels: xlibmesa-gl-dev: Depends: x11proto-gl-dev but it is not going to be installed
[07:51] <Lathiat> daniels: what do i need to play with to fix that?
[07:51] <Jimbob> jdub: re: the "root terminal" thing, you could (as an interim solution) have the desktop exec "gnome-terminal --execute sudo -s -p 'Enter your password to run a root shell: '"
[07:52] <fabbione> FINALLY!
[07:52] <daniels> Lathiat: you need to install x11proto-gl-dev :P
[07:52] <daniels> Lathiat: sudo apt-get install x11proto-gl-dev, see what it conflicts with
[07:53] <Lathiat> heh ok
[07:53] <Lathiat> that was in a buildd but
[07:53] <Lathiat> but i suppose i can see what it does locally
[07:56] <fabbione> GRRR...
[07:57] <whiprush> hey fabbione 
[07:57] <fabbione> hi whiprush 
[07:58] <whiprush> may I trouble with you with a kernel question?
[07:58] <fabbione> whiprush: if you feel lucky :)
[07:58] <whiprush> heh
[07:58] <whiprush> the pptp driver in hoary doesn't work with bsd-based firewalls like monowall.
[07:59] <whiprush> a friend of mine bugged me with it but hasn't told me specifics yet
[07:59] <fabbione> it's a bsd problem :P
[08:00] <whiprush> apparently some distros are pulling the pptp driver right from the guys CVS even though he hasn't made a release.
[08:00] <whiprush> how shall I proceed?
[08:00] <fabbione> we don't pull from CVS
[08:00] <fabbione> i am pretty sure about it...
[08:01] <whiprush> ok, so the right answer is "ask the guy to release?"
[08:01] <fabbione> whiprush: how to proceed is a good question... does it work with other distros?
[08:01] <whiprush> it works with fc4 just fine.
[08:01] <fabbione> whiprush: no, my point is that we don't pull from CVS.. should we?
[08:02] <fabbione> whiprush: if it works with other distros, it might as well be a problem with bsd...
[08:02] <whiprush> but, the one thing that caught my attention is the original patch was for 2.6.23
[08:02] <fabbione> too many vars in the middle
[08:02] <whiprush> er, 2.6.2
[08:02] <whiprush> which led me to ask "why isn't in mainline yet?" if it's been so long
[08:03] <fabbione> if nobody push the patch, it will never go mainline
[08:03] <fabbione> + the code needs to be clean
[08:03] <fabbione> and probably it's not
[08:03] <whiprush> I agree.
[08:04] <whiprush> My bsd-based router is a new release of m0n0wall, which is pretty popular around my group of friends. But this kernel patch seems to be wonky.
[08:04] <whiprush> last update I can tell is for 2.6.2
[08:05] <fabbione> mppe                    http://free.polbox.pl/h/hs001/                                          mppe-mppc-(.*).patch.gz         1.3                     linux-
[08:05] <fabbione> 2.6.11-[] 
[08:05] <fabbione> is this one the patch you are talking about?
[08:05] <whiprush> anyway, I'll get more specifics on the patch itself, I've had like 3 of my friends patch their kernels to "make it work" but none of them seem to know any specifics.
[08:06] <whiprush> I'll file a bug, I was just wondering if you happened to know anything about it off the top of your head.
[08:07] <whiprush> 2 of them just enabled ipsec and worked with that instead if filing a bug (grrr!!!!)
[08:08] <fabbione> whiprush: i might as well be a BSD problem
[08:08] <fabbione> i really have no idea
[08:08] <whiprush> ok, I'll get more specifics on it then
[08:08] <fabbione> i don't use bsd and tbh i don't have machines to test it and knowledge to debug it
[08:09] <fabbione> it works linux2linux so for me it's ok
[08:09] <whiprush> It really sucks when people fix their stuff and tell no one. 
[08:09] <fabbione> ok = it can be bsd ;)
[08:10] <whiprush> "Oh hey, ubuntu won't work with this pptp setup, and no I can't help you, but I like the naked girls."
[08:10] <whiprush> story of my life. 
[08:11] <whiprush> but hey if it makes you feel better, inotify has been pretty solid this cycle. :D
[08:12] <infinity> Oh, wow.  My laptop might actually show up on my doorstep tomorrow.  Finally.
[08:12] <ivoks> :)
[08:13] <fabbione> OHHH now it works
[08:16] <whiprush> infinity: wotcha get?
[08:16] <daniels> damn it, the cursor generation has defeated me for today.
[08:17] <whiprush> hmmm, since I spoiled my cool points on fabbione, daniels, may I trouble you for a question?
[08:17] <daniels> go nuts
[08:18] <whiprush> this zach rusin thing?
[08:18] <daniels> exa?
[08:18] <whiprush> yeah
[08:19] <whiprush> worth it (will it be in breezy?) or are we waiting for Xegl?
[08:19] <daniels> exa is more than worth it.  you can't do some of the cool tricks you can do with gl (e.g. desktop-on-a-cube), but it makes most other uses of composite very performant.
[08:19] <whiprush> man, I don't even know if that's a right question.
[08:20] <daniels> it'll be in breezy for radeon and i810 at least
[08:20] <daniels> oh, and sis
[08:20] <whiprush> So, is it bling for breezy? or ... ?
[08:20] <daniels> bling-for-breezy, but not by default
[08:20] <whiprush> good good.
[08:20] <daniels> in any case, I need to go clean up; got a landlord's inspection tomorrow.  blah.
[08:21] <whiprush> daniels: get a haircut, and maybe a new shirt.
[08:21] <whiprush> :)
[08:23] <daniels> whiprush: hah.  nah, this is in the house that I'm moving out of, but others are staying on, so I have to make it all slick and shiny.
[08:23] <daniels> i look presentable whereever I go, so houses that *I* inspect aren't a worry :P
[08:23] <whiprush> good plan
[08:32] <ivoks> pitti: morning :)
[08:32] <pitti> Morning
[08:33] <pitti> ivoks: good luck for your exam!
[08:34] <ivoks> heh, i will not take it :(
[08:34] <ivoks> i'm not 100% ready, so no point in doing it bad...
[08:39] <pitti> Hey JaneW
[08:44] <fabbione> hey guys
[08:44] <pitti> Hi fabbione 
[08:47] <JaneW> morning pitti
[08:47] <fabbione> hey JaneW 
[08:49] <JaneW> hey fabbione
[08:49] <fabbione> YAY
[08:49] <fabbione> we will soon able to install on LVM :)
[08:49] <fabbione> i finally got a working package
[08:49] <Treenaks> fabbione: cluster-lvm?
[08:49] <fabbione> JaneW: that'd be InstallerVolumeManager
[08:50] <fabbione> Treenaks: nothing to do with clustering
[08:50] <Treenaks> fabbione: there is clusterlvm right?
[08:50] <fabbione> Treenaks: that's clvm.. and it's only an extra layer (sort of plugin) to make lvm work in a clusterized env
[08:50] <fabbione> but that won't be in the default install
[09:04] <JaneW> fabbione: excellent
[09:29] <tepsipakki> hi, I've tested gnome-screensaver on breezy, and it seems to work for the most part
[09:30] <tepsipakki> just not the "popsquares"-screensaver ;)
[09:30] <tepsipakki> gnome-screensaver-dialog needed to be setuid-root, otherwise locking didn't work
[09:31] <mae> hey guys, gnome baker is looking quite promising, maybe we should include in breezy?
[09:31] <mae> i built the CVS and it supports automatic decoding of flac for audio cd's  :D
[09:32] <tepsipakki> mae: it is in universe
[09:32] <mae> tepsipakki, yes i know , but i think its good enough to include as a general purpose burner tool, don't you?
[09:32] <tepsipakki> yes
[09:33] <mae> in the main distro
[09:33] <mae> _on_ the cd :)
[09:52] <pitti> elmo: please sync ipsec-tools
[10:20] <pitti> Hey sivang
[10:20] <sivang> pitti: Hi Martin, how are you?
[10:20] <pitti> fine, thanks
[10:20] <sivang> pitti: oh, I need to quit and login again, after I Have activated screen :-)
[10:21] <elmo> pitti: done
[10:21] <pitti> thanks
[10:22] <sivang> pitti: back
[10:22] <tepsipakki> I'm not getting the launchpad-registration mails
[10:22] <tepsipakki> I've tried a couple of times.. checked all the spam folders etc ;)
[10:22] <fabbione> Kamion: ping?
[10:45] <sivang> seb128: morning
[10:45] <sivang> seb128: have you heared from jamesh ? I discussed with him a bit the creation of a helper lib, but after that I didn't get in touch with him
[10:45] <pitti> Hey seb128 
[10:46] <seb128> hi
[10:46] <seb128> sivang: I pinged him yesterday, he's busy but will try to have a shot on patching gtk today
[10:47] <seb128> sivang: what helper lib?
[10:47] <sivang> seb128: helper lib , he is not going to patch Gtk
[10:47] <sivang> seb128: the helper lib will contain the action group for the launchpad integration stuff,
[10:47] <sivang> seb128: and will will patch applications to use it
[10:47] <sivang> seb128: (to the best of my understanding)
[10:48] <sivang> seb128: He said patching Gtk would be a bad idea anyways
[10:48] <seb128> jamesh: around?
[10:50] <sivang> seb128: btw, on the app list I see gnome-system-manager, I can't find a package for it..
[10:52] <seb128> where?
[10:52] <sivang> seb128: under gnome-media
[10:52] <seb128> ??
[10:53] <sivang> seb128: sorry, under UIManager
[10:53] <seb128> probably a typo for the package name
[10:55] <sivang> seb128: ok, maybe you meant gnome-system-monitor?
[10:56] <seb128> probably
[10:56] <sivang> seb128: k
[10:56] <seb128> are you going to patches stuff not using gtkuimanager?
[10:57] <fabbione> seb128: gnome-doc-utils is uninstallable...
[10:57] <seb128> fabbione: I know
[10:57] <sivang> seb128: I don't mind doing anything you'd feel like assigning me to :-) if you like me to do that, I'll start with it, might be easier to me since I am not so much familiar with UIManager inner workings
[10:57] <fabbione> seb128: ok :)
[10:58] <seb128> will fix it soon :)
[10:58] <fabbione> i know :) i just wanted to be sure you knew
[10:58] <seb128> sivang: yes please, this spec has to move now
[10:58] <sivang> seb128: ok, then I'll have a pathcie weekend :-)
[10:58] <seb128> fabbione: sombody bugzilla-ed about it, I read the mail just before going to bed
[10:59] <seb128> sivang: thanks
[10:59] <sivang> seb128: I might however, need your help here and there, so be redy to get pinged :-)
[10:59] <fabbione> i guess it's time to downgrade ipw2x00
[10:59] <Lathiat> fabbione: whys that?
[11:00] <torkel> to make it work on 2.6.12?
[11:00] <Lathiat> new ones work for me shrug
[11:00] <seb128> sivang: np
[11:00] <fabbione> Lathiat: not the ipw2100
[11:00] <Lathiat> fabbione: ah
[11:00] <fabbione> Lathiat: and the ipw2200 has problems with the firmware
[11:01] <Lathiat> well, i havent had any problems with my 220
[11:01] <Lathiat> 0
[11:01] <Lathiat> but i guess if 2100 is broken, well, bugger
[11:01] <fabbione> the only sensible solution is to downgrade to something that's know to work
[11:01] <torkel> Lathiat: 2100 oopses on 2.6.12 :-(
[11:01] <Lathiat> torkel: suck
[11:01] <fabbione> i could actually do an attempt to fix it
[11:02] <fabbione> but i need volunteers to test it
[11:02] <fabbione> but there will still be the 2200 firmware problem
[11:02] <Lathiat> well, its just later versions of the driver fix the 2200 stuff from dying randomly
[11:02] <Lathiat> i can test the 2200 
[11:02] <torkel> and I can test 2100
[11:03] <fabbione> ok.. is it the -686- flavour good enough for both of you?
[11:03] <torkel> sure
[11:03] <Lathiat> yeh 686 works for me
[11:03] <Lathiat> i can try 386 if you want
[11:03] <Lathiat> do the colony install cds work?
[11:03] <fabbione> Lathiat: can you check #12417?
[11:03] <fabbione> Lathiat: for me it's enough one flavour works..
[11:03] <fabbione> the others will follow :)
[11:04] <elmo> fabbione: cvd has a very temperemental 2200 that isn't fixed by breezy 2.6.12 FWIW; I'm happy to randomly install new kernels on her laptop
[11:04] <fabbione> elmo: can you check what's in dmesg and if it matches what's in #12417?
[11:07] <Lathiat> fabbione: i get nothign like that, all works fine
[11:07] <elmo> fabbione: noting in kern.log like that
[11:07] <elmo> nothing
[11:08] <fabbione> hmm apparently the breakage was between 1.0.3 and 1.0.4
[11:08] <fabbione> we might be lucky..
[11:09] <JaneW> ogra: ping
[11:10] <ogra> JaneW, pong
[11:10] <JaneW> ogra: are you ready to go for a tested/implemented shade of green on BreezyGoals yet? ;)
[11:11] <ogra> JaneW, i'll go through them today again, but i fear i cant change colors very much yet
[11:11] <ogra> AudioCDBurning could get a little greener... 
[11:11] <elmo> fabbione: http://people.ubuntu.com/~james/tmp/ has a dmesg and kern.log, if it's useful
[11:12] <fabbione> elmo: checking
[11:12] <fabbione> [4294695.281000]  ieee80211: eth1: Unknown management packet: 0
[11:12] <fabbione> elmo: this seems to be the culprit
[11:12] <ogra> Kamion, gnome-power got approved for main, could you shuffle the seeds ?
[11:13] <fabbione> elmo: apparently the ieee80211 layer is broken.. making both ipw2100 and 2200 crap
[11:13] <JaneW> ogra: ok, thanks :)
[11:13] <fabbione> anyway.. i need some lunch now..
[11:13] <pitti> fabbione: maybe that's even the reason for the crash I experienced with netapplet and my wireless`
[11:14] <ogra> seb128, how likely is it that services-admin will be ready in time ? its crashing badly over here
[11:14] <fabbione> pitti: do you have ipw2100 or 2200 =
[11:14] <fabbione> ?
[11:14] <pitti> fabbione: no, prism2
[11:14] <pitti> fabbione: but that uses the 80211 layer as well
[11:14] <fabbione> pitti: i don't think the prism2 uses that set of modules.. they come specifically with ipw2x00
[11:14] <pitti> oh, ok
[11:14] <pitti> fabbione: btw, I deinstalled netapplet, now I don't get crashes any more
[11:14] <fabbione> iirc the prism2 has it's set of ieee80211 modules
[11:15] <fabbione> because clearly there are something like 23298392 copies of the same code
[11:15] <pitti> :-/
[11:15] <fabbione> each one crashes in a different spectacular way
[11:15] <chmj> oh dear 
[11:15] <fabbione> breezy+1 won't have this problem
[11:15] <seb128> ogra: it works fine here
[11:15] <Lathiat> whys that?
[11:15] <fabbione> all this stuff is going upstream
[11:15] <Lathiat> heh
[11:15] <fabbione> anyway.. food
[11:15] <fabbione> later
[11:15] <seb128> ogra: if you don't send bugs for your issue they are not going to be fixed
[11:16] <ogra> seb128, i cant start samba.... (i once removed the link in rc2.d)
[11:16] <seb128> if you messed stuff by hand ...
[11:16] <ogra> .... same for apache
[11:16] <ogra> it should deal with that and not just crash ;)
[11:16] <seb128> send a backtrace
[11:16] <ogra> i'll do
[11:16] <seb128> it doesn't crash here
[11:17] <seb128> describe what to do to get the crash
[11:17] <seb128> and send a bt
[11:17] <torkel> food sounds like an good idea
[11:17] <ogra> seb128, sure, i'll open a bug...
[11:17] <ogra> seb128, nice to know it works for you... i just have to know if it doesnt make it, because i have a bounty student for that ;)
[11:18] <pitti> elmo: please sync strace
[11:19] <seb128> ogra: DOH on duplicated work :/
[11:19] <seb128> ogra: that's a bounty waste
[11:19] <ogra> seb128, nope :)
[11:19] <seb128> ?
[11:20] <seb128> what is the student doing?
[11:20] <ogra> seb128, its called GraphicalConfigTools, not service manager ;)
[11:20] <ogra> and we already postpned the services app.... since we both belive in garnachos work *g*
[11:21] <seb128> k
[11:21] <seb128> what is the guy doing?
[11:21] <ogra> so now we'll get a ndsiwrapper tool to select your inf file via file selector, a scheduled task tool... and probably something for a basic LAMP setup
[11:22] <ogra> but i doubt the latter will be ready in time (to big task)
[11:22] <ogra> seb128, in any case google pays it...
[11:23] <seb128> k
[11:24] <retrix> :) im the lucky bounty student btw
[11:24] <Lathiat> i was going to play with that ndiswrapper thing but i havent been able to get my hand on some hardware to play with it
[11:24] <ogra> seb128, if you got other suggestions for needed tools... just say :)
[11:24] <ogra> hey retrix 
[11:24] <pitti> elmo: please sync exim4
[11:25] <retrix> hi ogra
[11:25] <ogra> :)
[11:26] <elmo>      exim4 |     4.52-1 |        breezy | source
[11:26] <elmo> nothing to sync
[11:27] <pitti> oh, then somebody didn't close the merging bug
[11:27] <pitti> thanks anyway
[11:27] <seb128> elmo: can you get gnome-screensaver out of NEW?
[11:28] <seb128> ogra: do we have any dsl config tool?
[11:28] <seb128> s/dsl/adsl/
[11:28] <ogra> seb128, you mean a gui for pppoeconf ?
[11:28] <seb128> by example
[11:28] <ogra> that would be a good addition, yes
[11:28] <seb128> something to configure your internet
[11:28] <ogra> retrix, what do you think ? 
[11:29] <ogra> sounds more achievable then a LAMP gui...
[11:30] <retrix> i could probably manage that
[11:31] <ogra> retrix, have a look at it and come back to me if you like to do it, i dont wont to get you under pressure ;)
[11:34] <retrix> ok ill look into it ogra
[11:34] <ogra> great :)
[11:34] <Kamion> daniels: pong
[11:34] <Kamion> fabbione: pong
[11:34] <Kamion> ogra: you should learn how to edit the seeds yourself; see SeedManagement on the wiki
[11:35] <ogra> Kamion, i'm on it for edubuntu :)
[11:38] <mdz> daniels,Kamion: install from yesterday's Breezy fails in X configuration
[11:38] <mdz> xserver-xorg/config/inputdevice/keyboard/layout not set . Aborting
[11:38] <Kamion> mdz: yes, I already mailed daniels about it, he's fixing it for -35
[11:38] <mdz> ok
[11:38] <Kamion> sent me a workaround as well which I might apply if it's urgent
[11:39] <Kamion> (preseed xserver-xorg/autodetect_keyboard=true)
[11:42] <fabbione> Kamion: i uploaded p-a-l 2ubuntu1.. it works here for me...
[11:42] <fabbione> Kamion: if you want to give it a shot too it would be nice
[11:43] <ogra> pitti, ping
[11:43] <pitti> Hey ogra
[11:43] <ogra> pitti, jdub asked me to package gnome-screensaver (which seb128 already did now) and to come to you for a security review
[11:44] <ogra> (it just got synced)
[11:44] <pitti> so it's in universe soon?
[11:44] <ogra> looks like... if it builds :)
[11:45] <pitti> could you please prepare an intitial report? with debian and upstream bug tracker review, security history, and so on?
[11:45] <ogra> yeps...
[11:45] <pitti> ... and of course a test :-)
[11:45] <ogra> sure... as soo as its available....
[11:45] <pitti> I'll look at the packages and critical parts of the code
[11:45] <pitti> ogra: btw, does it have any elevated privs?
[11:46] <Kamion> fabbione: ok, but I doubt it will be soon at this rate :(
[11:46] <Kamion> fabbione: cool, though
[11:46] <fabbione> Kamion: eh ok :)
[11:46] <ogra> pitti, dunno, havent looked myself yet... but it should work in the user-session as xscreensaver does
[11:46] <ogra> pitti, so i douubt it...
[11:47] <pitti> yes, I assume that :-)
[11:47] <seb128> ogra: it's not synced, I've packaged it for Ubuntu
[11:47] <fabbione> Kamion: the only hack left around is how we need to round up the lvm overhead at lvcreate time, that might create the last partition a bit bigger than usual.. but for the other stuff it's ok
[11:47] <ogra> seb128, oh
[11:47] <fabbione> Kamion: we still miss all the goodies like the progress, but that's not high priority
[11:48] <mdz> is gnome-screensaver based on xscreensaver, or is it entirely different?
[11:48] <fabbione> hey mdz
[11:48] <mdz> fabbione: morning
[11:48] <jsgotangco> hey> - include a PDF poster (e.g., A0 size) that can be downloaded and
[11:48] <jsgotangco> > printed. I'll start with the one we had in Sydney (the Hoary CD cover)
[11:48] <jsgotangco> > but over time we may be able to get approved ones from the Art Team
[11:48] <jsgotangco> > - include a link to shipit for ordering CDs (with info about delivery
[11:48] <jsgotangco> > time & planning ahead!)
[11:48] <jsgotangco> > - a link to the Ubuntu stuff on Cafe Press (we're in the process of
[11:48] <fabbione> sabdfl morning 
[11:48] <jsgotangco> > updating these items with better logos)
[11:49] <jsgotangco> > - a link to a page to share tips/experiences
[11:49] <mdz> daniels: did you determine what should be done about /usr/bin/X11?
[11:49] <jsgotangco> > - a list of conferences where people plan to hand out Ubuntu CDs
[11:49] <sabdfl> fabbione: hi
[11:49] <jsgotangco> > 
[11:49] <jsgotangco> > We'll also try to find a reasonable way to make & provide some other
[11:49] <jsgotangco> > collateral (stickers, other giveaways, etc) and we'll add this info to
[11:49] <mdz> jsgotangco: please don't do that
[11:49] <jsgotangco> > the page when it's available.
[11:49] <jsgotangco> > 
[11:49] <fabbione> Kamion: i also published all the patches.. one by one in the usual dir
[11:49] <jsgotangco> acck
[11:49] <jsgotangco> sorry
[11:49] <jsgotangco> jeezz
[11:49] <jsgotangco> mdz, sorry my bad
[11:49] <Kamion>      - Ubuntu branding for the master template file.
[11:49] <Kamion> fabbione: huh? what was that?
[11:49] <Kamion> -2 killed that requirement I thought
[11:49] <fabbione> Kamion: to change the default VG name from Debian to Ubuntu
[11:50] <tepsipakki> gnome-screensaver needs one component to be setuid-root, as I said earlier
[11:50] <fabbione> Kamion: it is still a one line change
[11:50] <tepsipakki> otherwise I couldn't get it to lock the screen
[11:50] <Kamion> fabbione: aha, ok
[11:50] <tepsipakki> see: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=309613
[11:50] <Kamion> righto, I'll have a look over the changes when I get a chance, thanks dude
[11:51] <elmo> fabbione: cvd's laptop did get that nasty firmware crap - I've had to downgrade to hoary kernel now
[11:51] <fabbione> Kamion: no problem.. just keep in mind one thing.. i did produce the patches in the same order as i was fixing bugs or changing things.. so to get a working package you still need all of them in the right sequence...
[11:51] <fabbione> elmo: ok.. i am working on it right now
[11:51] <seb128> grrr
[11:51] <fabbione> Kamion: including changes to changelog and stuff :)
[11:51] <seb128> I could kick this Vincent Trouilliez guy
[11:51] <ogra> mdz, gnome-screensaver is essentially a fork of xscreensaver
[11:52] <tepsipakki> ogra: fork?
[11:52] <jsgotangco> seb128, haha
[11:52] <tepsipakki> isn't it written from scratch?
[11:52] <ogra> mdz, bt i havent looked yet how far they forked
[11:52] <ogra> tepsipakki, http://live.gnome.org/GnomeScreensaver_2fFrequentlyAskedQuestions
[11:53] <tepsipakki> ah
[11:53] <Lathiat> ah xembed, cute solution
[11:55] <Kamion> fabbione: sure
[11:56] <jdthood> pitti: I have been thinking about set-default-soundcard...
[11:57] <pitti> Hi jdthood 
[11:57] <jdthood> pitti: The utility sets the card _number_.  This depends on the order in which the drivers are loaded, unless the module loader configuration contains options that enforce certain index numbers for certain drivers.
[11:58] <jdthood> pitti: Have you considered using card _names_?
[11:58] <pitti> jdthood: well, they are harder to map and error prone
[11:58] <jdthood> pitti: How so?
[11:59] <pitti> but if it can be done robustly, that would of course be possible as well
[11:59] <pitti> jdthood: how is that specified in asoundrc?
[11:59] <jdthood> pitti: Generally you can use names anywhere you can use numbers.
[11:59] <jdthood> $ cat /proc/asound/cards
[11:59] <jdthood> 0 [CS46xx         ] : CS46xx - Sound Fusion CS46xx
[12:01] <jdthood> $ cat /proc/asound/cards
[12:01] <jdthood> 0 [Dummy          ] : Dummy - Dummy
[12:01] <jdthood>                      Dummy 1
[12:01] <jdthood> 1 [CS46xx         ] : CS46xx - Sound Fusion CS46xx
[12:01] <ogra> jdthood, i'm the guy from the hwdb.... i built in a check for the soundcard name... you cant imagine how many kernel modules only report [rev0]  as the name, you cant distinguish it with the name (yet)
[12:02] <jdthood> If I load another snd driver first, my principal sound card gets a different index (1 instead of 0) but it retains the same name ('CS46xx').
[12:02] <jdthood> ogra: Ah.
[12:02] <ogra> jdthood, so a check for both would probably the way to go
[12:03] <jdthood> ogra: Yes.  Would it be possible to set the soundcard on the basis of the name, if the name is something "valid", and fall back to the number?
[12:03] <ogra> why not ? its only code ;)
[12:04] <ogra> the question is, does pitti have time to implement sich things.... else i'd go with the numbering scheme for now and think about a more fine grained solution for breezy+1 :)
[12:04] <jdthood> ogra: On second thought ... the program is run from System|Preferences|Sound|Default and this _has_ to display a useful name in order for the user to be able to make an informed choice.
[12:04] <ogra> s/sich/such
[12:05] <pitti> jdthood: it does already
[12:05] <pitti> jdthood: but we can assume that the name is valid at that moment
[12:05] <jdthood> pitti: Does what already?
[12:05] <pitti> jdthood: yes, that's done in gnome-sound-properties
[12:06] <jsgotangco> brb
[12:06] <jdthood> pitti, orga: So why not change set-default-soundcard to write the name (as displayed to the user) instead of the index number into .asoundrc?
[12:07] <jdthood> Sorry if I am missing something?
[12:07] <pitti> jdthood: unfortunately I just lost my second audio device three days ago, so I cannot test that right now
[12:08] <pitti> jdthood: but I didn't know that you can put names as values of defaults.pcm.card
[12:08] <jdthood> pitti: I believe you just put the name instead of the numeral.  Probably you have to protect it with quotation marks if it contains spaces.
[12:10] <pitti> jdthood: next week I get a shiny new desktop box again, then I can have two sound cards again
[12:10] <pitti> jdthood: right now I only have my laptop, pretty hard to add a second pci soundcard :-)
[12:11] <pitti> jdthood: btw, are you at debconf5?
[12:11] <jdthood> pitti: Nope
[12:12] <jdthood> pitti: Well, just replacing the numeral with the name does _not_ work.  :/
[12:13] <pitti> jdthood: well, IIRC I read a bit about that, and I never heard that you can use names
[12:13] <jdthood> pitti: I have found that, in general, alsa-lib can work with names just as easily as with index numbers.
[12:14] <pitti> jdthood: maybe libasound can be easily *made to* accept names as a value :-)
[12:26] <pitti> elmo: please sync libapache2-mod-auth-pgsql and strace
[12:28] <zyga> is any ubuntu dev currently in london
[12:28] <zyga> ?
[12:28] <ogra> zyga, our office is there....
[12:29] <ogra> zyga, but everybody is well
[12:29] <zyga> I just heard about the attacks
[12:29] <elmo> libapache2-mod-auth-pgsql |  2.0.2b1-6 |        breezy | source, amd64, hppa, i386, ia64, powerpc, sparc
[12:29] <elmo> pitti: nothing to sync?
[12:29] <elmo> strace done
[12:30] <jdthood> pitti: Ah, I figured it out
[12:30] <pitti> elmo: bah, if somebody asks for sync, they should close the merging bug. Sorry
[12:31] <Kamion> zyga: all Canonical employees are safe at least, don't know about other developers
[12:31] <ogra> W: squeak-vm: binary-has-unneeded-section ./usr/lib/squeak/3.7-7/vm-display-fbdev .comment
[12:31] <ogra> is it possible dh_stip, install -s and strip -s are broken ?
[12:32] <ogra> i cant get this warning go away it seems... with neither of the tools
[12:32] <Kamion> you have to explicitly do strip --remove-section=.comment
[12:32] <chmj> zyga: what attacks ?
[12:32] <Kamion> chmj: news.bbc.co.uk
[12:32] <ogra> Kamion, wow, thnks
[12:32] <zyga> chmj: bombs in the subway and in several buses
[12:32] <chmj> Kamion: thnx 
[12:32] <ogra> Kamion, lintian -i tells something different ;)
[12:32] <Kamion> ogra: dh_strip does this for files it knows to be shared libraries or executables
[12:33] <ogra> Kamion, yes, the squeak plugin mechanism is a bit strange
[12:33] <Kamion> ogra: RTFS :)
[12:33] <ogra> :)
[12:33] <Kamion> it's fair enough for lintian not to go into quite all the details I think
[12:33] <ogra> if i give -i it should show details ....
[12:33] <Kamion>                 if ($type=~m/.*ELF.*(executable|shared).*/) {
[12:33] <ogra> thats why i do this
[12:34] <Kamion> ogra: they're implementation details of dh_strip
[12:34] <Kamion> anyway if 'file' on /usr/lib/squeak/3.7-7/vm-display-fbdev matched that regex, it would have .comment and .note stripped
[12:34] <ogra> N:   The binary or shared library is stripped, but still contains a section
[12:34] <ogra> N:   that is not useful. The utilities (install -s and dh_strip) are
[12:34] <ogra> N:   patched to remove the .note and .comment sections.
[12:34] <Kamion> yes, and they do
[12:34] <torkel> zyga: is it confirmed that it was bombs?
[12:34] <Kamion> for sensible binaries
[12:34] <ogra> so i assume install -s does this....
[12:35] <JanC> torkel : 3 busses don't explode on themselves...
[12:35] <ogra> torkel, yes
[12:35] <torkel> k
[12:35] <zyga> torkel: it seems so
[12:35] <zyga> torkel: buses dont blow to bits out of thin air
[12:35] <Kamion>       execlp ("strip", "strip", "--remove-section=.comment", "--remove-section=.note", path, NULL);
[12:35] <zyga> many people died apparently, it's a sad day :-(
[12:36] <Kamion> install -s does that unconditionally if built with ELF support
[12:36] <Kamion> so perhaps your binary is too broken for strip to be able to handle it?
[12:36] <ogra> Kamion, lets see... just compiling again....
[12:39] <pitti> elmo: cdrtools sync, please
[12:40] <elmo> pitti: done
[12:40] <pitti> thanks
[12:40] <ogra> Kamion, --remove-section worked... many many thanks, this is a weird source making me rip my hair out
[12:41] <ogra> now on to all these rpath errors
[12:41] <Kamion> ogra: hm, I certainly don't understand why install -s would have failed then
[12:41] <pitti> ogra: gnome-screensaver ftbfs
[12:41] <ogra> Kamion, it did...
[12:41] <ogra> pitti, oki
[12:41] <ogra> pitti, thanks for reporting :)
[12:44] <elmo> pitti: assigned the lib32z1 bug to you at mdz's request (you touchedit last)
[12:56] <pitti> elmo: odd, I only changed one line in the code...; I'll look at it
[12:58] <pitti> elmo: please sync adduser 
[01:00] <pitti> elmo: ... and bsdmainutils
[01:05] <elmo> pitti: done
[01:05] <pitti> elmo: I think I'll cumulate the next requests...
[01:07] <HiddenWolf> seb128, you've got 2 different email adresses on the new upload of gnome-screensaver, is that intentional?
[01:08] <seb128> yep
[01:08] <seb128> I use my debian email for the Maintainer and my Ubuntu one for the uploads
[01:08] <seb128> why?
[01:09] <HiddenWolf> seb128, just wondering
[01:24] <seb128> pitti: do you read utopia-list?
[01:27] <fabbione> chmj, elmo, ipw2x00 testers....
[01:27] <fabbione> i have a test image for you guys
[01:28] <fabbione> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/linux-image-2.6.12-3-686_2.6.12-3.4_i386.deb
[01:28] <fabbione> NOTE that it breaks the ABI
[01:28] <fabbione> that it is NOT reflected in the package name
[01:28] <fabbione> so if you use some of your own compiled drivers they will break to death
[01:28] <chmj> :(
[01:30] <fabbione> chmj: they might actually work.. but keep an extra eye ;)
[01:30] <davyd> so, it would be really swell if I could use update-alternatives to select my version of gcc
[01:30] <fabbione> only ipw2100 and ipw2200 should be affected
[01:33] <mjg59> fabbione: Should this fix the oops?
[01:34] <fabbione> mjg59: yes.. but i need people to test it
[01:34] <fabbione> mjg59: i need at least an ipw2100 and an ipw2200
[01:35] <mjg59> fabbione: Ok, I'll give it a go later
[01:36] <fabbione> mjg59: ok thanks
[01:36] <fabbione> mjg59: what chipset do you have of the above?
[01:36] <mjg59> ipw2100
[01:36] <fabbione> ok
[01:36] <torkel> fabbione: at least it does not oops when doing a 'iwlist eth1 scan' with ipw2100
[01:36] <lifeless> davyd: you can, if you install an alternative 
[01:36] <lifeless> davyd: its a shame its not in the package though
[01:37] <fabbione> torkel: it should work without any problem now
[01:38] <fabbione> torkel: it's exactly the same as upstream :)
[01:40] <fabbione> torkel: can you put the interface in traffic?
[01:41] <fabbione> torkel: and see if it works as it should?
[01:42] <pitti> seb128: yes, I do
[01:42] <fabbione> pitti: check /. article about ICMP from today
[01:43] <fabbione> Developers: Examining ICMP Flaws
[01:43] <Treenaks> fabbione: is that not just some more Theo De Raadt FUD?
[01:44] <fabbione> Treenaks: i only read the subject...
[01:44] <fabbione> one thing at a time ;)
[01:44] <seb128> pitti: k, bastien was asking on the GNOME list on reply to a mail from Jeff speaking about your audiocard selector
[01:45] <pitti> seb128: that is sitting in the gnome bts for weeks now... has there been any progress?
[01:45] <fabbione> Treenaks: no.. it doesn't look like
[01:45] <torkel> fabbione: seems to be working. Anything special you want me to test?
[01:45] <fabbione> torkel: not really...
[01:45] <seb128> pitti: I'm quite upstream for that ... I'll point the bug to Bastien
[01:45] <fabbione> you know what the driver can/cannot do
[01:46] <seb128> pitti: maybe Jeff knows who is to ping for that though
[01:46] <pitti> fabbione: *wonderful* 
[01:48] <fabbione> pitti: we can still switch to DECnet IV :)
[01:48] <fabbione> "or download the Linux version of the older DECnet IV and bask in the Security Through Obscurity."
[01:53] <mjg59> fabbione: What change did you make? (It doesn't seem to be in the changelog)
[01:53] <fabbione> mjg59: reverted ipw2200 to 1.0.1.
[01:54] <Simira> tseng: ping
[01:54] <mjg59> fabbione: Ah, ok
[01:54] <fabbione> mjg59: that also brings back the ieee80211 to 1.0.1 that's the same as ipw2100 1.0.0 upstream
[01:54] <fabbione> oh the ipw2200 firmware downgraded too
[01:54] <fabbione> to match the driver version
[01:54] <fabbione> mjg59: i didn't add any changelog becuase i am not sure it works yet..
[01:54] <fabbione> ipw2100 seems fine..
[01:55] <fabbione> so i am waiting somebody to test ipw2200
[02:02] <davyd> woot, my laptop sleeps
[02:02] <davyd> although I did rewrite the suspend script to do less stuff
[02:03] <mjg59> Did it not sleep before?
[02:03] <davyd> atheros didn't power down cleanly
[02:04] <davyd> seems to be fixed
[02:06] <davyd> something in your suspend script seems to be blocking on my machine too
[02:06] <davyd> you can ctrl-c it, I should add the -x so I can see what it is
[02:07] <hunger> pitti: Just mailed you the latest and greatest cryptodisks script.
[02:07] <pitti> hehe, thanks :)
[02:07] <hunger> pitti: I have messed with my mail setup again... so please tell me if it got through;-)
[02:08] <pitti> hunger: might very well be that this has to wait until the week after debconf5
[02:08] <pitti> hunger: I still have some other stuff to do, and I'm leaving tomorrow
[02:08] <hunger> pitti: No problem... I am using the latest and greatest version of the script anyway;-)
[02:18] <pitti> ogra: hey, g-screensaver built :-)
[02:19] <ogra> pitti, yes... seb128's work :)
[02:19] <pitti> ogra: will it be as nice as your hoary modifications to xscreensaver? :)
[02:20] <pitti> ogra: oh, and btw, any news wrt. the hdwb hal changes?
[02:20] <ogra> hopefully
[02:20] <davyd> is this the one that abuses xembed?
[02:20] <ogra> pitti, after UVF ?
[02:20] <ogra> davyd, yep
[02:20] <pitti> ogra: certainly enough, but the architecture is not going to change any more anyway
[02:20] <davyd> it's a pretty clever idea
[02:20] <seb128> grumpf
[02:20] <davyd> better then my one of extending Xlib
[02:20] <pitti> ogra: however, today *is* UVF, apart from merges
[02:20] <seb128> dh_make sets
[02:20] <seb128> Cpu: any
[02:20] <seb128> System: any
[02:20] <ogra> pitti, i know :)
[02:21] <pitti> seb128: argh, type-handling
[02:21] <seb128> and it doesn't put an "Architecture:" 
[02:21] <seb128> WTF
[02:21] <pitti> seb128: type-handling fills the architecture value in
[02:21] <seb128> doh
[02:21] <pitti> seb128: there's certainly a control.in
[02:21] <seb128> I hate this stuff
[02:21] <seb128> yep
[02:21] <pitti> me too :-)
[02:21] <seb128> I've dropped it to start
[02:26] <seb128> jdub: apt-get install gnome-screensaver
[02:27] <seb128> jdub: is the upstream guy on IRC?
[02:27] <jdub> seb128: dunno
[02:28] <seb128> k
[02:28] <seb128> the current package has no user switching, it looks for a gdm.conf for that
[02:28] <jdub> yeah
[02:28] <seb128> and Build-Depends on gdm is not an option, installing 72 packages to get a config file is plainly wrong
[02:29] <luis_> seb128: he is sometimes
[02:32] <bob2> jbailey@u.c goes where you'd think, right?
[02:34] <tseng> Simira: yes?
[02:34] <elmo> bob2: jeff.bailey will for sure
[02:35] <bob2> ah, good point, thanks elmo
[02:46] <seb128> luis_: k, let me know if you get his nickname :)
[02:51] <luis_> I can't remember
[02:51] <luis_> and AFAICT he isn't online
[02:51] <mdz> Kamion: I've added the ltsp bits to ship; I don't think it should be very heavy, but just so you know in case it blows up unexpectedly
[02:54] <Kamion> thanks
[02:58] <seb128> luis_: k, I'll mail him rather, he seems to be quite fast to reply to bugs
[02:58] <bob2> lamont-away: did you ever end up getting the kernel to like your cell phone?
[02:59] <ogra> hmm, gnome-screensaver is very strict if you lock the screen.... very strict.... you dont even get a unlock dialog ....
[02:59] <mdz> Diziet: welcome
[02:59] <elmo> fabbione: d2adef1f0f4d271026096b13eae86dc4  ../linux-image-2.6.12-3-686_2.6.12-3.4_i386.deb
[02:59] <elmo> fabbione: that what i want?
[02:59] <Diziet> mdz: Hello.
[02:59] <fabbione> elmo: the one from people.. there is only one 3.4
[02:59] <mdz> Diziet: so I wanted to catch up regarding NetworkMagic
[02:59] <ogra> Diziet, hi...
[02:59] <fabbione> elmo: note the ABI thing i wrote above
[03:00] <Diziet> mdz: Yes, please !
[03:00] <mdz> Diziet: thom mentioned he had received mail from you, but hadn't replied yet (at the time I spoke to him)
[03:00] <Diziet> That's still true.
[03:00] <mdz> Diziet: but in any case the first step is getting network-manager into shape
[03:00] <Diziet> At least AFAICT.  I haven't checked my logs.
[03:00] <Diziet> OK.  Is there a list somewhere of what's wrong with it ?
[03:00] <elmo> fabbione: abi doesn't matter if I'm just using that image .deb and nothing else, right?
[03:00] <Diziet> Or will it be obvious ? :-)
[03:00] <elmo> well, assuming reboot-after-install
[03:00] <fabbione> elmo: right
[03:01] <ogra> Diziet, bugzilla ?
[03:01] <Diziet> I haven't looked at it yet; my testbed machine is installing as I write.
[03:01] <jbailey> mdz: ping?
[03:01] <mdz> Diziet: if you install it, a few things jump out
[03:01] <fabbione> elmo: yes.. that will make it easier
[03:01] <mdz> Diziet: for instance, it depends on bind9
[03:01] <Diziet> Cripes.
[03:01] <mdz> Diziet: and it mangles /etc/resolv.conf in some very interesting ways
[03:01] <fabbione> elmo: otherwise you need to unload all the ipw and ieee802* modules and reload them
[03:02] <Diziet> I can see the argument for having a local proper cache, actually.
[03:02] <mdz> I suggest installing it in a few places (most interestingly a laptop with wireless + wired interfaces) as a start
[03:02] <Diziet> OK.  I've got one of those with enough disk for an install.
[03:02] <mdz> Diziet: sure, but bind9 is a bit heavy and its default configuration is not suitable for that
[03:02] <Diziet> Quite so.
[03:02] <jbailey> mdz: Was just talking with fabionne about the best way to handle that older udev's don't like 2.6.12, and newer udev's require newer kernels.  Trying to figure out if depends'ing on Linux >> 2.6.12 would work and if we can assume that the kernel version provided there will be present on next boot.
[03:03] <Diziet> Do we have an opinion about our preferred cache ?
[03:03] <mdz> so NM is pretty rough around the edges and needs to be polished up to integrate smoothly with the rest of the system
[03:03] <Diziet> I'll have a play with it and see what looks like needing fixing.
[03:03] <mdz> Diziet: lwresd seems like the right idea, though I confess to never having actually used it
[03:03] <ogra> especially its working very bad with pcmcia here ....
[03:03] <jdub> mdz: NM runs BIND with its own configuration; i've been talking to upstream about the nscd switch - sounds like that's the way to go
[03:03] <mdz> the key use cases are documented in the spec
[03:03] <Diziet> mdz: Right.
[03:03] <Diziet> But they're largely obvious.
[03:03] <mdz> jbailey: elmo would hate you
[03:04] <jbailey> mdz: The catch is arch's that don't provide 'linux' because there's no default kernel, but those could just depend on, say, linux-hppa32 | linux-hppa64 and trust that the user already has at the right kernel installed courtesy of the installer.
[03:04] <Diziet> nscd ?  Surely that can't be the right answe.r
[03:04] <elmo> jbailey: dude, that's horrid - I don't think we can assume our users are running kernels we provide
[03:04] <mdz> they may be obvious, but they don't work yet, and it's not clear whether there are still pieces missing after we get NM in
[03:04] <Kamion> jbailey: depending on kernel packages is awful
[03:04] <elmo> esp. when kernel-package built packages don't produce packages with the same name
[03:04] <mdz> at this point we need to get as quickly as possible to the point where we can add NM to the default install
[03:04] <jdub> Diziet: well, colour this knowing that drepper has been the, ah, "hard place" in the decision making process :)
[03:04] <mdz> without it doing anything insane
[03:05] <mdz> because currently it isn't getting anywhere near the level of testing that it needs
[03:05] <jbailey> elmo: We have to in terms of providing a supported configuration anyway.  If someone touches their kernel and it breaks, we can't help them anyway.
[03:05] <Diziet> mdz: Right.
[03:05] <jbailey> elmo: What we would be doing then is basically saying that as of a given release you have to have a minimum kernel version if you want to play at all.  Mark it in the release notes, enforced through a package dependancy.
[03:05] <Diziet> What's Drepper got to do with it ?  I mean, um.  Just use normal dns and no nscd.
[03:05] <Diziet> nscd is EBW.
[03:06] <Kamion> jbailey: making our udev package not be usable unless you're using our kernels is just so bad
[03:06] <jbailey> Kamion: It's more fragile than I like, but we don't have any way of depending on kernel features available on next boot.
[03:06] <Kamion> jbailey: happy with release notes, but not the dependency
[03:06] <jbailey> Kamion: Not based on our kernel version, based on 2.6.12
[03:06] <elmo> jbailey: what's the danger here, partial upgrades of udev?
[03:06] <jdub> Diziet: the reason why BIND/lwresd/nscd come up is because NM requires fast, reliable reconfiguration of DNS sources
[03:06] <jbailey> udev 0.60 requires kernel 2.6.10.  2.6.12 requires udev 0.56
[03:06] <elmo> why can't udev just check in the preinst?
[03:06] <elmo> at runtime?
[03:06] <jbailey> udev-0.61 will require kernel 2.6.1
[03:06] <jbailey> 2.6.12
[03:06] <Kamion> jbailey: yes, but as elmo says e.g. kernel-package produces differently-named packages by default, etc.
[03:06] <Diziet> jdub: Quite so.
[03:07] <jdub> Diziet: and interesting customisations for VPNs and so on, beyond what resolv.conf can do
[03:07] <Kamion> jbailey: so what you're in fact saying is "you may not hack your kernel and use udev"
[03:07] <Diziet> resolv.conf is not the answer.  A sensible cache is the right answer.
[03:07] <jdub> Diziet: (this is the major reason why it uses a custom bind configuration, tweaks it, realoads it, etc)
[03:07] <Kamion> unless you're extremely familiar with making kernel-package DTRT
[03:07] <jdub> Diziet: yeah, thus bind :)
[03:07] <Diziet> BIND8 is quite broken in this respect.  I imagine BIND9 will be worse, but I've not used BIND9.
[03:07] <jbailey> Kamion: Not at all.  I'm saying "hack your kernel, but use the upstream version that we support".
[03:07] <mdz> Diziet: is that enough of a concrete starting point to keep you busy for the present?
[03:07] <jbailey> Ideally, newer ones will work, udev upstream has already broken this once.
[03:08] <Diziet> `BIND9 lightweight resolver protocol' ?  These people are on crack.
[03:08] <Kamion> jbailey: a preinst check would provide that *much* better than a package dependency
[03:08] <jdub> Diziet: worth reading the mailing list for background
[03:08] <Diziet> mdz: Yes, I think so.
[03:08] <jbailey> Well, upstream kernel rather broke it so that older udev no longer worked.
[03:08] <jbailey> Kamion: Preinst check assumes you're running the kernel already.
[03:08] <Diziet> I should have finished my own nameserver really.  Then we could use that :-).
[03:08] <Kamion> jbailey: package dependency assumes you have an Ubuntu-packaged kernel
[03:08] <jbailey> Right now, running 2.6.12 on a warty system won't work.  The interface changed and udev hangs while walking /sys
[03:09] <Kamion> we seem to be talking at cross-purposes here ...
[03:09] <Diziet> Right now it just coredumps mainly.
[03:09] <jbailey> Kamion: Well, it assumes you have it installed.
[03:09] <mdz> jbailey: why do newer udevs require newer kernels?  is there no way to maintain backward compatibility?
[03:09] <jbailey> Kamion: It also offers the ability to quickly check what version we think you ought to have installed with dpkg -l linux
[03:09] <jbailey> mdz: sysfs structure changed.
[03:09] <Kamion> cjwatson@jackass:~$ dpkg -l linux-image\* | grep ^ii
[03:09] <Kamion> cjwatson@jackass:~$
[03:09] <Kamion> for example
[03:09] <Diziet> I think the right answer for now is probably to use BIND8 and restart it (not just reload it) when the config changes.
[03:10] <mdz> jbailey: also, what's the target date for making initramfs the default configuration?  that needs _gobs_ of testing
[03:10] <Kamion> jbailey: just for a start, that doesn't work on powerpc
[03:10] <mdz> Diziet: preferable would be to disable that whole piece of the mess and use existing DNS infrastructure while we sort it out
[03:10] <Kamion> jbailey: and it's hopelessly unreliable - it's very easy to update just linux-image-whatever without updating the metapackages too
[03:11] <jbailey> Kamion: Right, that's  why the 'linux' package would depend linux-power3 | linux-power4 | linux-powerpc64-smp
[03:11] <mdz> the more piecewise we can bring NM in, the less painful it will be
[03:11] <Kamion> jbailey: people won't keep it up to date reliably
[03:11] <Diziet> mdz: That would make sense too.
[03:11] <Diziet> Just messing with resolv.conf is probably sanest.
[03:11] <jbailey> Kamion: Yeah.  More fragile than I like, but a run-time test doesn't work here.
[03:11] <Kamion> jbailey: seriously, the dependency doesn't work either
[03:11] <bob2> note that things like firefox more or less ignore changes to resolv.conf
[03:12] <Kamion> jbailey: I'd rather have a preinst *warning*, and then have udev bomb out at run-time if it's still wrong
[03:14] <jbailey> Kamion: 'warning:  If you're not running 2.6.12 by the time you restart udev, it won't be able to run' type of thing?
[03:14] <Kamion> jbailey: right, if it's not possible to make udev tolerate the old structure
[03:15] <Kamion> jbailey: perhaps the udev init script could check the running kernel version before (re)starting udev
[03:15] <Kamion> jbailey: so that you don't break your system if you do '/etc/init.d/udev restart'
[03:17] <Kamion> Diziet: Have you looked at the Ubuntu new-maintainer process yet? We should look at getting you through it soon.
[03:17] <jbailey> Kamion: That's doable.  I'm just wishing for some way of doing a more certain dependancy on the kernel version that will be installed next.  Apparently the next version of hal will want the next version of udev which will require 2.6.12.  Having the user have an old kernel will break alot of things. =(
[03:18] <Diziet> kam: No.
[03:18] <Diziet> I just did what it said in NewStaffTasks under Ubuntu.
[03:18] <Diziet> So my key is in the keyring but I haven't done an upload or anything.
[03:19] <ogra> Diziet, you are DD ?
[03:19] <mdz> yes
[03:19] <uniq> are there known issues with udev/kernel in breezy (ppc)? after updating from hoary to breezy loading the correct sound modules doesn't create the correct /dev entries.
[03:20] <jbailey> mdz: Lemme give you an accurate answer to the initramfs default in a few hours.
[03:20] <Kamion> Diziet: oh, your key's there already? No problem then.
[03:21] <Diziet> Oh, good :-).  Well, it was on the list so I did it (got James to do it).
[03:21] <Diziet> bob2: Yes, which is why a local cache would be better.  But.
[03:22] <Diziet> I suppose you could do some kind of nightmare iptables forwarding hack.
[03:22] <Diziet> But I have an aversion to nightmare hacks :-).
[03:25] <pitti> elmo: please sync nagios
[03:25] <Kamion> God, I hate and despise non-unified diffs.
[03:26] <Treenaks> Kamion: patch diff to exclude the other methods
[03:27] <chmj> Kamion: unified should be set as default
[03:27] <Diziet> patchutils seems to have something called `filterdiff' which converts.
[03:27] <Kamion> I wonder if it can convert .rej files
[03:27] <Diziet> Not, I just did google and grepping; I didn't actually run it or anything.
[03:27] <Diziet> http://linuxcommand.org/man_pages/filterdiff1.html
[03:28] <Diziet> .rej's are context diffs, aren't they ?
[03:28] <mdz> yes
[03:28] <Diziet> Why oh why oh why oh why must everyone put grub or LILO in the MBR ?  I want the nice Debian MBR.
[03:29] <Kamion> sadly it seems not to be able to handle .rej
[03:29] <Kamion> Debian doesn't use the mbr package by default any more either
[03:29] <Diziet> k: Presumably it was too simple and useful.

[03:30] <bddebian> heh
[03:30] <Kamion> it's entirely possible it simply got lost in the installer rewrite; I wasn't around ...
[03:31] <Diziet> Oh well, I have rescue media if it comes to that.
[03:46] <jbailey> mxpxpod: Did you system stay working?  Any idea how you got a corrupted install?
[03:46] <mxpxpod> jbailey: yeah, everything works now
[03:47] <mxpxpod> jbailey: no clue... it took me a couple of days to do the install, so that might have been a problem
[03:47] <mxpxpod> jbailey: I have a slow connection at home
[03:47] <jbailey> mxpxpod: =(  I guess.  It shouldn't have mattered, though.
[03:47] <mxpxpod> no, it shouldn't have
[03:47] <mxpxpod> oh well, it's fixed now :)
[03:48] <mxpxpod> and I figured out how to issue linux-wlan-ng commands from /etc/network/interfaces
[03:48] <mxpxpod> so I have my prism2 usb card working the ubuntu way
[03:49] <davyd> daniels: alive?
[03:50] <davyd> your new X seems to have broken my laptop
[03:51] <mxpxpod> jbailey: now, if there was only a way to store configs in a database and have it go thru the db looking for ap's that it knows about...
[03:51] <mxpxpod> oh well, I have to go paint
[03:52] <jbailey> mx|gone: There was an udu spec on something like that, but I haven't followed it at all.
[03:52] <seb128> pitti: around?
[03:52] <jdub> mx|gone: networkmanager does that
[03:52] <seb128> pitti: could you have a look on http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/eggcups/cups-dbus.patch?rev=1.7&view=markup ?
[03:52] <seb128> considering this comment 
[03:53] <seb128> "Random note to CUPS distributors who may be running it as non-root:
[03:53] <seb128> You'll probably need to remove the bit in cups-dbus.patch that checks
[03:53] <seb128> getuid() to use the session bus.  Yes...it's an evil hack and should
[03:53] <seb128> probably go away anyways :)"
[03:53] <seb128> 
[03:53] <mx|gone> jdub: but does nm work with linux-wlan-ng?
[03:53] <seb128> pitti: that's a patch for cups/dbus, so we can package eggcups (http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-announce-list/2005-June/msg00033.html)
[03:54] <mdz> linux-wlan-ng isn't needed anymore in ubuntu, is it?
[03:54] <Kamion> mdz: it was last I checked
[03:54] <seb128> pitti: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2004-July/msg00126.html too
[03:54] <Kamion> for prism USB devices
[03:54] <mdz> prism2_usb is in the default kernel
[03:54] <Kamion> but the userspace control bits are not
[03:54] <mx|gone> mdz: prism2 usb devices don't take a lot of iwconfig commands
[03:55] <Kamion> we have this conversation every time :-)
[03:55] <mx|gone> haha
[03:55] <mx|gone> wland is not needed
[03:55] <mx|gone> and all the wlan.agent stuff
[03:55] <mx|gone> because ubuntu has an ifup-post.d (or something like that) script that handles all the stuff
[03:55] <mdz> Kamion: and the outcome of the conversation is usually "let's just seed it"
[03:56] <Kamion> mdz: the outcome of the last conversation was me saying "my device didn't work; I installed linux-wlan-ng and it just worked"
[03:56] <mx|gone> :)
[03:56] <bddebian> heh
[03:56] <Kamion> I have one of these devices, it doesn't work without linux-wlan-ng in hoary
[03:56] <Kamion> unless you think the situation has changed in breezy
[03:56] <mx|gone> same with in breezy
[03:57] <pitti> mdz, Kamion: at least for my device it didn't change, I still need l-wlan-ng
[03:57] <mx|gone> but you can use wlan_ng_* in /etc/network/interfaces to set your wlan-ng settings
[03:57] <Kamion> you need wlanctl-ng and the /etc/network/if-*.d/ scripts, IIRC
[03:57] <mx|gone> right
[03:57] <pitti> mx|gone: you can, but that still needs the package
[03:58] <mx|gone> pitti: correct
[03:58] <davyd> gah
[03:58] <davyd> why is my X.org broken again?
[03:58] <Treenaks> it is?
[03:58] <mx|gone> it'd be nice if the wlan-ng guys would just make it so that iwconfig would work with prism2 usb devices
[03:58] <mx|gone> but oh well
[03:58] <mx|gone> gotta go paint
[03:59] <pitti> seb128: right, the patch would use the session dbus with our cups, it should use the system bus
[03:59] <bddebian> It'd be nice if USB just went away for anything except mice and keyboards. :-)
[03:59] <davyd> I'm also not getting any EE in my error log
[03:59] <mx|gone> bddebian: yeah, tell that to broadcom (I wouldn't have to use a prism2 wlan device if they'd release the specs for the airport extreme)
[04:00] <bddebian> mx|gone: :-)
[04:00] <bddebian> mx|gone: PowerBook?
[04:02] <davyd> hmm, does anyone know of recent X.org breakage?
[04:03] <davyd> or is this something to do with whatever fix Daniel put in for my laptop
[04:03] <Treenaks> davyd: it was fixed for me this morning
[04:04] <davyd> this is a 3rd of July build it says
[04:04] <davyd> it simply refuses to start
[04:04] <Treenaks> davyd: that might be b0rken then, yes
[04:04] <davyd> but logs no obvious error
[04:04] <davyd> this is whatever the latest thing that came from apt is
[04:04] <Treenaks> davyd: I think gdm can't find X
[04:04] <mx|gone> bddebian: ibook
[04:04] <davyd> Treenaks: I symlinked that back together
[04:05] <davyd> Treenaks: /usr/X11R6/bin/X or whatever it is
[04:05] <Treenaks> davyd: x-common of today fixed the mess
[04:05] <Treenaks> or at least
[04:05] <bddebian> mx|gone: Ah.  I had a Lucent working fine in a couple of PowerBooks :-)
[04:05] <Treenaks> a partof the symlink mess
[04:05] <davyd> Treenaks: I have 1.02
[04:06] <Treenaks> me too
[04:07] <davyd> Treenaks: where does your /etc/X11/X point to?
[04:07] <Treenaks> lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root 17 2005-05-24 20:18 /etc/X11/X -> /usr/bin/X11/Xorg
[04:09] <davyd> hmm, it just bails out
[04:09] <davyd> there is no error logged in my log
[04:09] <davyd> a few warnings, but nothing that looks important
[04:09] <davyd> what driver are you using?
[04:10] <Kamion> mx|gone: I just use a PCMCIA card in my PowerBook, but it's one of the models that actually *has* PCMCIA, unlike some
[04:20] <elmo> Preparing to replace libdevmapper1.01 2:1.01.00-4ubuntu2 (using .../libdevmapper1.01_2%3a1.01.03-1ubuntu1_amd64.deb) ...
[04:20] <elmo> update-rc.d: /etc/init.d/libdevmapper1.01 exists during rc.d purge (continuing)
[04:21] <elmo> why is it doing purge on upgrade?
[04:21] <elmo> who Touch It Last(tm)?
[04:24] <pitti> elmo: me
[04:24] <pitti> elmo: the init script is not necessary any more
[04:24] <elmo> ok, so it's just a scary-but-harmless msg?
[04:24] <pitti> elmo: so Debian removed it
[04:25] <pitti> elmo: yes; I can try to quiet it down
[04:25] <pitti> elmo: it first calls upgrade-rc.d remove and then rm -f's the script
[04:25] <pitti> elmo: should probably be done the other way round then
[04:25] <elmo> pitti: it's not a big deal, but might be nice to clean it up
[04:26] <pitti> right, will do
[04:28] <Kamion> having an init script in a sonamed library package is still crazy
[04:28] <Kamion> glad it got cleaned up for the future, at least
[04:28] <Diziet> I have a keyboard here where the rubber end on one of the little fold-out feet has _melted_ leaving a gungy patch on the desk !
[04:28] <pitti> Kamion: yes, that's why I wanted to merge that version :-)
[04:28] <Treenaks> Diziet: I had that with my laptop
[04:29] <Treenaks> Diziet: it even came with spare rubber feet
[04:29] <Diziet> This is just a normal n-years-old desktop keyboard in a sensibly-temperatured spot.
[04:29] <ogra> cosmic rays or air pollution, pick as you like ;)
[04:29] <bddebian> Maybe it's biodegradeable? :-)
[04:30] <hunger> Diziet: Which hell did you raise from that you consider keyboard melting environments to be sensibly-temperatured?!
[04:30] <mjg59> Diziet: Some of them liquify under pressure
[04:30] <Kamion> mdz: any opinions on where to publish non-primary-architecture CD builds? I'm currently thinking http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ports/daily/ etc.
[04:31] <Diziet> liquify under pressure ?!  A _foot_ ?  But I suppose that's the only explanation other than that some chemical I used to clean the desk (some time ago, I'm afraid) ate it.
[04:31] <mdz> Kamion: something like /ports/ sounds sane
[04:31] <mjg59> Decstation 3000s were dreadful for that
[04:31] <mjg59> If you left them in one place for long enough, the feet would run
[04:32] <hunger> mjg59: Great... running feet on a keyboard!
[04:32] <Diziet> This keyboard was made by Cherry.  And only one of the two feet has melted.
[04:33] <davyd> mjg59: w00t for dodgy DEC rubber!
[04:45] <Keybuk> why is it always the package with 130 patches that fails, and not the one with 3 ?
[04:46] <bddebian> Moore's Laws?
[04:47] <fabbione> Keybuk: otherwise it would spoil the fun?
[04:49] <Diziet> keybuk: Patches are not a sign of good software, unfortunately.  And all too often they don't improve it, either.
[04:50] <Kamion> I suspect the failure is an import failure rather than a failure of the software itself
[04:57] <Keybuk> well, the software I'm currently battling with is "vim"
[04:57] <Keybuk> so I think both points are valid ;)
[04:58] <Keybuk> though this one looks like a Keybuk brain failure
[04:58] <zyga> Keybuk: what's wrong with everyone's favourite editor?
[04:58] <Keybuk> emacs?  nothing, why? :)
[04:58] <zyga> no, no
[04:58] <zyga> I said editor
[04:59] <zyga> not operating system 
[04:59] <zyga> what's wrong with vim? :)
[05:00] <Keybuk> currently?  it doesn't have anything in its .orig.tar.gz other than tarballs, but my OH SO CLEVER import stuff tries to branch it anyway
[05:00] <Keybuk> and breaks
[05:02] <lamont> moof
[05:03] <Keybuk> the fact that this is a pretty common occurance, and that the code that's broken is new, probably explains a lot
[05:04] <zyga> Keybuk: what's an .orig.tar.gz? original source tarball? like the one everyone can fetch from vim.org? 
[05:04] <Keybuk> part of a Debian source package
[05:04] <Keybuk> is "supposed" to be the original source tarball
[05:04] <zyga> mhm
[05:04] <Keybuk> but the vim maintainer thinks he's clever, and the original tarball is actually inside this one
[05:04] <lamont> Keybuk: unless upstream has RFC's or such. :-(
[05:05] <pitti> Keybuk: he probably just tries to get features that dpkg should have *duck* :-)
[05:05] <Keybuk> but it _does_ :o)
[05:05] <lamont> Keybuk: I thought you preferred people no patch source, but rather unpack a tarball...
[05:05] <pitti> Keybuk: sure, I'm looking forward to use that new format
[05:06] <pitti> Keybuk: is there dpkg-source -b support for that?
[05:06] <Keybuk> not yet
[05:06] <Keybuk> want to write it? :)
[05:06] <pitti> Keybuk: well, how do I test the new format then?
[05:06] <zyga> Keybuk: so .orig.tar.gz actually contains one .tar.gz with source? that makes no sense
[05:06] <Keybuk> zyga: .tar.bz2 inside a .tar.gz
[05:07] <pitti> zyga: it does make some sense
[05:07] <zyga> oh joy, compression
[05:07] <pitti> zyga: that way, you can build your software in a directory build-tree/
[05:07] <zyga> pitti: e17n me 
[05:07] <pitti> zyga: so whatever you mess up in the build tree (experimental changes, autofuck tools changes, etc) will not mess up your source package
[05:07] <zyga> pitti: like glibc does for egzample?
[05:08] <Keybuk> glibc also has three upstream source tarballs
[05:08] <pitti> zyga: glibc does multi-build, i. e. build the same source in different ways
[05:08] <Keybuk> so has to tar them up
[05:08] <zyga> hmm
[05:08] <pitti> zyga: otherwise you have to play dirty hardlink tricks or bluntly copy around files, which is error prone
[05:08] <zyga> pitti: I copy files but then again the trees are small
[05:09] <zyga> pitti: still I cannot see the point of doing two archives 
[05:09] <pitti> zyga: if it weren't for the tarball-in-tarball oddness, a tar'ed original source and a build-tree is really a good solution
[05:09] <zyga> build-tree could be made with just one, correct?
[05:10] <pitti> zyga: well, you could recursively copy files from the top level dir into build-tree
[05:10] <pitti> zyga: but this is still ugly IMHO
[05:10] <zyga> I'll see how vim's sources look
[05:10] <zyga> I still don't get it frankly :/
[05:11] <pitti> zyga: try gnome-volume-manager if you want to see something small
[05:11] <zyga> ok
[05:11] <pitti> zyga: or sysfsutils, even smaller and much less build deps
[05:12] <Keybuk> what difference does top-level or build-tree make?
[05:12] <Keybuk> out of interest
[05:12] <pitti> Keybuk: debian/rules clean just rm -rf build-tree and is done
[05:12] <Keybuk> sure, but that's just out-of-directory builds
[05:13] <pitti> Keybuk: with top-level, you have to reverse-apply all patches, autofoo stuff, and so on
[05:13] <Keybuk> ah, but you don't have to reverse-apply patches with W&P
[05:13] <zyga> BTW, I've recently started using one tool that made reading obscure code a bliss
[05:13] <zyga> :>
[05:13] <pitti> Keybuk: sure, W&P is the solution we all waited for
[05:13] <zyga> I've put indent into my lessopen certain files
[05:13] <pitti> Keybuk: it's just that cdbs tarball.mk, dbs, etc. existed much earlier, so the folks got accustomed to these
[05:13] <Keybuk> yup
[05:14] <zyga> all the code I've got from work is readable now :)
[05:14] <Keybuk> hopefully I'll get some time at debconf
[05:14] <tseng> zyga: eh?
[05:14] <pitti> Keybuk: I basically want to be able to play with the source without spending much effort into not destroying source pkgs
[05:14] <zyga> tseng: I've made .indent.pro-file 
[05:15] <zyga> tseng: and then I run indent -st "$1" in lessopen
[05:15] <zyga> tseng: this way I can read the code the way I like
[05:15] <jbailey> Keybuk: When you're asking what's the difference, do you mean why not untar it in place/
[05:15] <jbailey> Keybuk: with cdbs, I did it because the clean target then gets reduced to rm -rf build-tree.
[05:16] <zyga> why can't the clean target ... clean 
[05:16] <zyga> not remove everything?
[05:16] <zyga> does build-tree contain any source?
[05:16] <jbailey> zyga: Upstream makefiles often suck and clean poorly.
[05:16] <jbailey> There's alot of Debian packages that you can't do "debuild; debclean; debuild" to because they leave crap lying around.
[05:16] <zyga> hmm
[05:17] <jbailey> zyga: In a tarball build, yes.
[05:17] <jbailey> Usually something libc build-tree/glibc-2.3.5
[05:17] <zyga> jbailey: I'm startting to get this
[05:17] <jbailey> Then we have build-tree/libc-i386 build-tree/libc-i686
[05:17] <jbailey> And when you want to clean the whole thing, rm -rf build-tree takes care of it all.
[05:18] <jbailey> You just need to make sure all your patches re in debian/patches correctly.
[05:18] <pitti> zyga: also, I often play around with the source, insert some printfs here and there, apply some experimental patches which partly fail, etc.
[05:18] <pitti> zyga: I can compile and re-compile in the build-tree, and am always able to get to a clean and consistent state
[05:19] <zyga> hmm then the build tree *does* contain source
[05:19] <zyga> okay I've built g-v-m
[05:20] <jdthood> Will Breezy have udev 0.060, or will it stay with 0.056?
[05:25] <mx|gone> bddebian: what did you give away all your pb's for?
[05:32] <bddebian> mxpxpod: Because I'm dumb?  I gave them to Debian, Hurd, and Grub hackers
[05:33] <tseng> bddebian: did you save me one?
[05:33] <bddebian> tseng: I have one OldWorld left but I think I gave away the AC adapter. :-(
[05:34] <tseng> heh
[05:36] <bddebian> tseng: When I worked at a big company I used to "borrow" the older models that just sat on the shelf.  A couple of them I bought off of e-bay.
[05:37] <zyga> what are pbs?
[05:37] <Simira> who was it that wanted me to bring Ubuntu t-shirts for sale on Debconf? *packing*
[05:38] <bddebian> zyga: ?
[05:39] <zyga> what are pb's?
[05:39] <pitti> PowerBook?
[05:39] <zyga> ah
[05:39] <zyga> :)
[05:41] <pitti> zyga: I really regret apple's decision
[05:41] <pitti> zyga: my complete iBook takes about 10 W right now
[05:42] <pitti> zyga: with pentium & co, this is certainly going to go up considerably
[05:42] <zyga> pitti: mine takes zero - it's too pricy to buy
[05:42] <pitti> hehe :-)
[05:42] <Mithrandir> pitti: why do you think so?  My x40 uses about 10W.
[05:42] <zyga> pitti: I agree that intel is a power hog
[05:42] <zyga> but centrino is not prescott
[05:43] <pitti> Mithrandir: that's good, ok :-)
[05:43] <Mithrandir> but then, IBM are _good_
[05:43] <jdthood> I thought that one of Apple's reasons for switching to Intel was that the mobile versions of Intel's chips used less power.
[05:43] <pitti> huh?
[05:43] <ivoks> jdthood: yeah, one of reasons
[05:43] <pitti> interesting
[05:44] <ivoks> intel developed great wifi, but only for pc
[05:44] <bob2> x40s use special low-voltage pentium ms, tho
[05:44] <tseng> all pentium m's are low voltage
[05:44] <lu|away> jdthood: vastly, vastly less power
[05:44] <mjg59> They're still faster than any Powerbook you're likely to find, though...
[05:44] <hunger> Mithrandir: My ibm uses a bit more.... about 12W.
[05:45] <ivoks> pitti: how's MTA? :)
[05:45] <pitti> ivoks: runs fine, thanks again :-)
[05:46] <ivoks> doh... no problem, really
[05:48] <dilinger> pitti: thanks for the dm patches; i'll get around to looking at it at debconf, when i actually have some of that oh-so-elusive free time
[05:49] <pitti> dilinger: great, we'll meet there any way :-)
[05:49] <pitti> brb
[05:55] <mxpxpod> bddebian: well, those sound like good causes
[05:56] <bddebian> mxpxpod: I thought so :)
[05:57] <mxpxpod> bddebian: now, if HURD could only get on track...
[05:57] <mxpxpod> :D
[05:57] <bddebian> mxpxpod: I'm working on that too :-)
[05:57] <mxpxpod> sweet
[06:02] <Keybuk> oh, good, vim also has a .svn directory in one of its patches
[06:03] <zyga> Keybuk: you woundn't want to miss it, would you ;)
[06:04] <Keybuk> if so, I'm having words
[06:04] <bddebian> hehe
[06:07] <mdz> wasabi: eclipse is looking spiffy
[06:07] <mdz> takes ages to start on my laptop, but looks good when it gets there
[06:10] <mxpxpod> mdz: kind of like oo.o2?
[06:12] <lu|away> early ooo2 builds were actually faster than ooo1
[06:12] <lu|away> not anymore, jeez
[06:17] <Keybuk> oh, look, another keybuk-being-an-idiot bug here too
[06:17] <Keybuk> *sigh*
[06:17] <mdz> mxpxpod: no, eclipse takes _much_ longer to start than oo.o2
[06:17] <mdz> oo.o2 starts in a reasonable amount of time for me
[06:17] <mxpxpod> dang
[06:18] <ogra> oh, i386 only...
[06:18] <ogra> sad
[06:18] <mxpxpod> mdz: it takes forever for me... it didn't used to and now it uses some java stuff that slooooows it down
[06:18] <mdz> Kamion: can we easily add memtest86 as a boot option on both install and live?
[06:20] <mdz> Kamion: in isolinux, I mean
[06:20] <Kamion> good question; I suppose I could just sellotape memtest86+.bin into the CD's filesystem somewhere
[06:21] <Kamion> nothing else is needed, is it?
[06:25] <mdke> elmo, around?
[06:25] <Kamion> mdz: doing
[06:25] <mdke> mako, around?
[06:27] <Kamion> mdz: done, assuming I didn't screw it up; haven't documented it yet
[06:28] <mdz> Kamion: fantastic, thanks
[06:29] <mdz> yeah, only memtest86+.bin is needed
[06:29] <Kamion> called it 'memtest'
[06:31] <mdz> Kamion: what would be involved in adding a media-check option?
[06:31] <mdz> I guess it would need to ask the language question still
[06:31] <mdz> unless we can manage to move that out to the boot loader after all...infinity?
[06:31] <Kamion> not necessarily
[06:32] <Kamion> if it were just an English media check, it could just boot with that main-menu option preselected
[06:32] <mdz> well, it would be nice to be able to display the success/failure message localized
[06:32] <mdz> though it is in color, I suppose, and so reasonably clear
[06:34] <Kamion> if it makes any difference, I suspect it will be an order of magnitude less work this way :)
[06:39] <Kamion> mdz: small main-menu hack required I think, but not too bad
[06:47] <shwiiing> anyone working on the live-cd?
[06:48] <mdz> yes
[06:49] <shwiiing> yes shwiiing or yes Kamion ?
[06:52] <Zomb> sounds like a vorlon-style YES (as in b5, not Steve)
[06:55] <Kamion> shwiiing: it was to you
[06:57] <shwiiing> oki, i have some expirience with livecd devel. need any help?
[06:59] <hunger> shwiiing: I bet they can take some help. Ubuntu has surprisingly few people.
[07:01] <Kamion> note that the Ubuntu live CD is rather different from other live CD systems; it's almost entirely built out of the regular system
[07:01] <Kamion> the piece that makes it into a live CD is casper ('apt-get source casper')
[07:01] <Kamion> which mdz maintains
[07:03] <shwiiing> i made one just like a normal distro, just wrote my own linuxrc and loaded the knoppix-autoconf script, and i was up and running
[07:04] <shwiiing> used unionfs and squashfs
[07:04] <shwiiing> writeing the linuxrc file was realy tricky
[07:04] <Kamion> we're very keen on sticking with the current broad outline since it provides many maintainability benefits, but improvements to the detail are of course very welcome
[07:05] <Kamion> we tried the Morphix approach for Warty and had many problems
[07:05] <shwiiing> i know
[07:05] <Zomb> btw, the Ubuntu hw detection is crashing the kernel on my system while Sarge and Knoppix run fine
[07:05] <Zomb> who does care?
[07:05] <Kamion> Zomb: I'd care if given details ...
[07:06] <Kamion> although I'm not a kernel hacker, fabbione would be better
[07:06] <Kamion> Zomb: the Ubuntu hardware detection is basically just hotplug
[07:06] <Zomb> then I would ask fabbione 
[07:06] <Kamion> if that's crashing your kernel then it would be better described as your kernel crashing your kernel :-)
[07:06] <Zomb> I think I have Cc'ed him already in some discussion about that
[07:06] <Zomb> hehe
[07:06] <shwiiing> Kamion, is there a website where i can get up to date with what you are working on?
[07:07] <Kamion> udu.wiki.ubuntu.com is the development website from our last conference, with goals and plans
[07:07] <Kamion> (although it'll be merged into wiki.ubuntu.com soonish)
[07:08] <Treenaks> Kamion: any idea when the next conference will be?
[07:09] <Kamion> Treenaks: I believe current plans are for October, shortly after the Breezy release; the business of having a conference very early in the release cycle worked out well this time
[07:09] <shwiiing> ill take a look then
[07:16] <Diziet> This network-manager package, erm, is it a package somewhere ?  Or did people who've tried it just `make install' ?  Or am I looking in the wrong places ?
[07:19] <zanaga> Diziet: it's in universe
[07:20] <Diziet> Oh, here it is.
[07:21] <Diziet> I could swear I looked for it under `n' in pool but obviously I must have been wrong.
[07:25] <Diziet> Ah, and the package search didn't get it 'cos I didn't spot that only hoary was selected.  I definitely need this coffee I have here.
[07:26] <Lathiat> daniels: blah, x-common tries to overrwite /etc/X11/X which si also in xorg-common but xorg-common cant be upgraded until x-common is 
[07:27] <Lathiat> daniels: doing a dpkg -i of xorg-common first gets around it, apt wont due to dep issues
[07:36] <thom> Diziet: also, the package code is kept in the pkg-utopia svn repo on alioth
[07:37] <thom> Diziet: when you need commit privs for that, please let me know and i'll get that sorted
[07:37] <thom> Diziet: and, sorry for not having yet replied to your mail
[07:38] <zanaga> seb128: am i missing something with bug #12336 why are you trying to load the html in totem?
[07:39] <infinity> Lathiat : The file moved from xorg-common to x-common, you mean?
[07:39] <Lathiat> infinity: i think so,a dn that x-common is being installed first
[07:39] <Lathiat> the X dependencies are in quite a mess actually
[07:39] <Lathiat> im having to randomly apt-get -f install, upgrade, dist-upgrade and manually install things to get this all to install
[07:40] <Lathiat> without wanting to do something like remove libxll-6
[07:40] <seb128> zanaga: you said "usually the files just fail to play, even if the file
[07:40] <seb128> is supported in standalone totem.", I thought that was a redirection to the file or something
[07:41] <zanaga> seb128: ah, no.. it's just a html wrapper to force the media to play in firefox.. the real media is named test.ogg
[07:41] <infinity> Lathiat : Erm, x-common doesn't contain any files in /etc...
[07:41] <Lathiat> also installing say, ttf-punjabi-fonts (and lots fo other similar packages) i get lots of cannot exec /usr/X11R6/bin/mkfontdir from defoma stuff
[07:41] <Lathiat> infinity: well uh, tahts the error i got
[07:42] <Lathiat> infinity: if you want to try, install hoary, then try dist-upgrade to breezy
[07:42] <infinity> Default desktop install?
[07:42] <Lathiat> yep
[07:42] <seb128> zanaga: thanks, playing test.ogg from totem works fine ... now I can bug upstream
[07:42] <azeem> http://people.debian.org/~mbanck/photos/lsm_2005/img005.jpeg.html <- that's what happens if gentoo dudes need to quickly fix their machines
[07:43] <infinity> Alright, I'll play tomorrow when the new laptop gets here.  It'll need an OS anyway. :)
[07:43] <Lathiat> infinity: :)
[07:43] <Lathiat> whatcha gettin?
[07:43] <jbailey> Nice, I googled for 'rsync' cd image, and Ubuntu is #2.
[07:43] <infinity> T43, 2GHz Pentium-M, 2GB of RAM, some other toys.
[07:43] <zanaga> seb128: great, i just wanted to file it in ubuntu bugzilla so that it doesn't get missed when breezy is released
[07:43] <Lathiat> infinity: nice
[07:43] <Lathiat> infinity: what size, gfx?
[07:43] <seb128> zanaga: np, that's fine like this, thanks
[07:43] <Lathiat> my laptop is a 2ghz pentium-m
[07:43] <Lathiat> it needs more ram
[07:43] <Lathiat> but its very nice
[07:44] <infinity> Lathiat : Smallish (the T43 is sorta the middle road, size-wise, between tiny laptops like the X series and big desktop replacement stuff)
[07:44] <Lathiat> infinity: so, 15"
[07:44] <Lathiat> ?
[07:44] <Lathiat> mines 15.4" widescreen
[07:44] <Lathiat> 1680x1050
[07:44] <Lathiat> very nice
[07:44] <infinity> Graphics is just an X300.  And yeah, 15" 1400x1050.
[07:44] <Lathiat> sweet, same as mine then
[07:44] <Lathiat> just not widescreen
[07:44] <Lathiat> i find this a nice size
[07:45] <Lathiat> i couldnt deal with less
[07:45] <infinity> THe laptop's too small to be a widescreen.
[07:45] <Lathiat> its only 3.3kgs, so its portable
[07:45] <infinity> Which is fine by me, I don't want something massive.
[07:45] <Lathiat> wouldnt want any bigger
[07:45] <Lathiat> the thign for me, is i dont have a desktop, this is my only machine
[07:45] <infinity> Anyhow.  Severly off-topic we are, and I should go to bed.
[07:45] <Lathiat> hehe ok night :)
[07:46] <pitti> does anybody know how to get back PostScript fonts?
[07:47] <pitti> I can't display any pdf or ps file, everything is just empty...
[07:50] <Lathiat> hm, openoffice.org2 is unisntallable
[07:51] <JanC> I upgraded it yesterday?  (twice, in fact)
[07:53] <JanC> this new OOo2 beta starts slower than the old OOo2 alpha though  :-/
[07:55] <highvoltage> any ubuntu guys still in london?
[07:55] <mdke> lots
[07:55] <mdke> all well apparently
[07:55] <highvoltage> ah, good.
[07:55] <JanC> highvoltage : canonical has offices in london
[07:55] <highvoltage> i know, sorry, should've been more specific with the question.
[07:56] <highvoltage> is matt still there? i think he said he was leaving today.
[07:56] <Diziet> I was supposed to be meeting mdz there.  I got as far as buying a ticket at Cambridge (looking at the departure displays thinking `well, it's a bit disrupted but I'lll just be half an hour late') before they told us there were no trains to London today.
[07:57] <highvoltage> that's hectic.
[07:57] <mdz> highvoltage: (yes, I'm here until tomorrow and am alive)
[07:57] <highvoltage> mdz: cool.
[08:12] <highvoltage> egh. not having an internet connection is killing me.
[08:15] <comadreja> 
[08:15] <Kamion> mdz: tomorrow> that's what YOU think. it's all a plot to keep you locked in London.
[08:16] <ogra> hehe
[08:16] <ogra> Kamion, did vedran talk to you about the installer ? he's one of my students doing the lightweight desktop
[08:16] <highvoltage> Kamion: this is starting to sound like a humorix conspiracy
[08:16] <Kamion> ogra: no
[08:16] <ogra> hmm
[08:16] <ogra> ok
[08:17] <Kamion> ogra: or at least not that I remember
[08:19] <highvoltage> good to see everyone is still alive. i need to go back home now, cheers!
[08:42] <doko> pitti: ping
[08:43] <carstenh> doko: he is not here
[08:45] <ogra> doko, ! how is finland ?
[08:51] <doko> ogra: just arrived. nice.
[08:53] <ogra> have something to shade your eyes to get some sleep ? 
[08:53] <ogra> :)
[08:54] <Simira> hehe
[08:54] <Simira> were you in bergen in june, ogra ?
[08:55] <ogra> yep
[08:55] <ogra> lots of rain :)
[08:55] <ogra> but you have a wonderful country over there :)
[08:55] <jdthood> thom: Is there somewhere I obtain a network-manager deb?
[08:56] <ogra> jdthood, its in the archive
[08:57] <ogra> jdthood, try http://packages.ubuntu.com/
[08:57] <jdthood> ogra: ooo, so it is.
[08:57] <ogra> :)
[08:57] <ogra> but beware it still has issues
[08:58] <ogra> (like running a local bind9 server for caching)
[09:06] <jdthood> ogra: If you can read this then it's working.
[09:07] <ogra> heh
[09:07] <ogra> sure it works... but who wants to run a nameserver on a desktop :)
[09:07] <tseng> i do, if it means not opening consoles and playing with iwconfig all day
[09:08] <jdthood> ogra: There are good reasons for running a caching nameserver, at least.
[09:08] <ogra> jdthood, bind9 ??
[09:08] <jdthood> ogra: I have used dnsmasq for a long time.  it is excellent.
[09:09] <ogra> yes, thats a well sized solution for a desktop/laptop ....
[09:09] <jdthood> ogra: bind9 might be appropriate for some applications.  The point is that n-m should be able to integrate with either bind9 or dnsmasq.  or pdnsd.
[09:09] <ogra> yes
[09:10] <jdthood> ogra: Even before n-m, we had correct handling of bind9, dnsmasq and pdnsd through resolvconf.
[09:11] <ogra> yup
[09:11] <ogra> thats what i meant with "it still has issues"
[09:11] <jdthood> So I am not sure that it will be necessary for n-m to continue to drag in bind9.
[09:11] <Keybuk> \o/  vim imported at last
[09:11] <ogra> new vim ?
[09:11] <mxpxpod> what do I do if I get an warning when resolvconf loads that resolv.conf isn't a symlink?
[09:11] <jdthood> ogra: Maybe n-m and bind9 are doing things together that are more intimate than we're aware of.
[09:12] <Keybuk> ogra: no, breezy vim, into baz
[09:12] <ogra> jdthood, they do, but its possible t oimprove it :)
[09:12] <zwnj> hi there
[09:12] <jdthood> mxpxpod: You are the victim of some package that has overwritten /etc/resolv.conf.  Using network-manager by any chance?
[09:13] <zwnj> any reason to not redirecting bugs.ubuntu.com to bugzilla.ubuntu.com?
[09:13] <jdthood> mxpxpod: resolvconf Conflicts with every package in Debian that writes to /etc/resolv.conf.  resolvconf doesn't Conflict with network-manager (yet) because the latter isn't in Debian.
[09:13] <ogra> Keybuk, ah.. 
[09:14] <jdthood> mxpxpod: However, I have heard rumors that n-m is being modified to cooperate with resolvconf.
[09:16] <jdthood> mxpxpod: To answer your question, what you need to do is remove the offending package and then "ln -sf /etc/resolvconf/run/resolv.conf /etc/resolv.conf"
[09:17] <Lathiat> seb128: the drivemoutn applet is having issues lately, it goes over the panel size, notably with cdroms, although tis doing it now without
[09:20] <Diziet> Oh, people talking about network-manager.  Hello.
[09:26] <malex> So, restricted == contrib and multiverse == non-free?
[09:27] <wasabi_> multiverse == contrib and non-free
[09:27] <wasabi_> restricted ~= both
[09:28] <malex> ooer, ok. Thanks wasabi!
[09:46] <mdke> smurfix, ping?
[09:46] <smurfix> mdke: 
[09:47] <mdke> rocket fast as always
[09:47] <smurfix> heh
[09:47] <mdke> smurfix, actually can you give me 5 mins?
[09:47] <smurfix> 5 mins before you say something, or 5 mins during which?
[09:47] <mdke> the first one
[09:47] <smurfix> NP
[09:47] <mdke> ty
[09:50] <mdke> smurfix, okay here i am
[09:50] <mdke> smurfix, ubuntu-it would like to take you up on the hosting offer
[09:51] <smurfix> OK
[09:52] <smurfix> email me an SSH pubkey please (gpg-signed)
[09:53] <mdke> smurfix, i will see what I can do, I'm a bit inexperienced with ssh keys
[09:53] <smurfix> man ssh-keygen ;-)
[09:53] <mdke> will do
[09:56] <mdke> smurfix, any requirements as to the type of key or length?
[09:56] <smurfix> dsa is standard and the default 1024 bits probably sufficient
[09:57] <mdke> okies
[10:37] <jp> hi guys, I installed colony cd 2 and I updated, and gdm doesn't start, who have resolved it? Thanks guys :/
[10:38] <jp> :(
[10:39] <jp> I did some symlinks, but it doesn't start :/ says /usr/bin/X11/X cannot execute :/
[10:39] <wasabi_> Hmm. Ooo2 still dislikes my theme.
[10:41] <jp> I did ln -sf /etc/X11/ /usr/bin/X11/ but it doesn't work too :/  who can say me what symlinks did to use xserver? :)
[10:43] <torkel> jp: try ln -s /usr/bin/Xorg /etc/X11/X
[10:47] <jp> torkel: that didn't work, thanks btw
[10:49] <torkel> jp: do you have a /usr/bin/Xorg ?
[10:51] <torkel> jp: you can also try with ln -sf /usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg /etc/X11/X
[10:54] <jp> ok torkel let's do
[10:55] <jp> no :'(
[10:55] <jp> torkel, yes I have a /usr/bin/Xorg
[10:56] <torkel> and it still complains that it cannot execute /usr/bin/X11/X?
[10:56] <jp> yes :'(
[10:57] <jp> /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xinit/xserverrc: line 2: /usr/bin/X11/X cannot execute
[10:57] <jp> :/
[10:58] <mdke> smurfix, still around?
[11:00] <smurfix> mdke: yo
[11:00] <mdke> smurfix, can i fire some questions at you in PM?
[11:00] <mdke> or here i guess
[11:02] <daniels> sudo rm -rf /usr/bin/X11 && sudo ln -s /usr/bin{,/X11}
[11:03] <jp> let's do it daniels thanks :)
[11:06] <jp> uhmm daniels: X: unable to open wrapper config file /etc/X11/Xwrapper.config /etc/X11/X is not executable :) things have changed =)
[11:07] <jp> I chmod it and now it only says: /etc/X11/X is not executable :)
[11:23] <TerminX> what's the "accepted" fix for the xkbcomp problem?
[11:28] <Mez> siretart: ping
[11:33] <jp> hi jbailey, did you find some relations to the evo exchange bug? :/
[11:38] <jbailey> jp: I haven't been working on that, sorry.  
[11:38] <jbailey> jp: You mentioend that you were going to check upstream bugzilla.  Did you find anything?
[11:41] <jp> jbailey I find but I didn't found :/
[11:41] <jp> so let's report it? I'll find again, and then I'll report it there jbailey :)
[11:43] <Burgundavia> jdub, new nautilus look for breezy
[11:43] <tseng> Burgundavia: eh?
[11:43] <Burgundavia> both jdub and I like the look for thunar
[11:43] <Burgundavia> which can now be done with nautlius
[11:44] <tseng> the spatial tree view?
[11:44] <Burgundavia> this one: http://thunar.xfce.org/wiki/media/ui/suggestion-20050320/shortcuts_buttons.png
[11:44] <tseng> oh yes
[11:44] <tseng> bookmark sidebar
[11:45] <Burgundavia> and the top row of buttons, ala gtk file chooser
[11:45] <wasabi_> I wouldn't mind that.
[11:45] <tseng> does nautilus have the later?
[11:45] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:45] <wasabi_> I think the bookmars might be a bit annoying after awhile
[11:45] <Burgundavia> new plugin just merged
[11:45] <Burgundavia> http://gnomedesktop.org/node/2312
[11:45] <Burgundavia> specifically --> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/nautilus-list/2005-July/msg00026.html
[11:46] <Burgundavia> it would be single window, ala the OS X finder
[11:46] <Burgundavia> tseng, do you like the idea?
[11:46] <wasabi_> Should just make Nautilus itself the FileOpenDialog like MS did
[11:46] <tseng> Burgundavia: sure
[11:47] <Burgundavia> wasabi, that was my next crazy thought
[11:47] <tseng> wasabi_: ...
[11:47] <wasabi_> WHy ...?
[11:47] <wasabi_> Code resuse.
[11:47] <wasabi_> reuse
[11:47] <tseng> thats bogus
[11:47] <wasabi_> It makes absolute sense to reuse nearly all of hte visual elements.
[11:47] <wasabi_> MS hit that point too.
[11:47] <Burgundavia> consistent interface?
[11:47] <wasabi_> Everybody always whines about that.
[11:47] <wasabi_> But the fact is, it only makes sense technically.
[11:48] <Burgundavia> it does make sense from a design pov as well
[11:48] <Burgundavia> and a usability one
[11:48] <wasabi_> Yup.
[11:48] <wasabi_> The file browsing interface becomes a generic library with a view component and hooks to plug in special features
[11:48] <wasabi_> nautilus becomes a consumer, as does the FileOpen dialog
[11:49] <wasabi_> In MS's case they wanted to put HTML in both, and so IE came in too.
[11:49] <Burgundavia> oh joy
[11:49] <wasabi_> =)
[11:49] <Burgundavia> can we leave out that part?
[11:49] <wasabi_> You haven't seen the Office WebDAV interface.
[11:49] <wasabi_> It's pretty slick.
[11:49] <tseng> wasabi_: except that the gtk team and the nautilus team would be working on the same code
[11:49] <tseng> wasabi_: with different release cycles
[11:49] <Burgundavia> the outlook web stuff in IE is pretty slick too
[11:49] <wasabi_> tseng, the curse of not working in the same building on the same project.
[11:49] <tseng> it doesnt make that much sense in real life
[11:50] <tseng> as it does in theory
[11:50] <Burgundavia> the gtk people are trying to sync their releases to gnome, from what I understand
[11:51] <jp> jbailey, Evolution bugs have been migrated to bugzilla.gnome.org. So I'll search there..
[11:51] <wasabi_> http://akita.larvalstage.net/~wasabi/webdav.png
[11:52] <wasabi_> WebDAV interface.
[11:52] <Burgundavia> ugh
[11:52] <wasabi_> Heh.
[11:52] <jbailey> jp: Oh?  Cool.  I didn't think they'd get aroudn to that.
[11:52] <wasabi_> The webdav server serves the interface as HTML.
[11:52] <Burgundavia> sorry, that is butt ugly and completely different from any other interface
[11:52] <wasabi_> Oh yeah, I agree.
[11:52] <Burgundavia> but the idea may be workable
[11:52] <jp> jbailey yep :/
[11:52] <wasabi_> I think the specific implemenation may suck.
[11:52] <Burgundavia> as usual with MS, they have great ideas, but their implementations suck
[11:53] <wasabi_> Basically though, if the webdav serves HTML in the right way, office can save to it.
[11:53] <wasabi_> And it has a special server-delivered interface
[11:53] <wasabi_> We use it for document management stuff.
[11:53] <Burgundavia> I once read a thing about board game designing (but it applies here). I was about good ideas and how cheap they are
[11:54] <jp> jbailey, :) http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=307956
[11:54] <wasabi_> Notice the special additions.
[11:54] <wasabi_> "Checked Out Too"
[11:54] <jp> there's the bug :P
[11:54] <Burgundavia> that can be done within an existing interface
[11:54] <Burgundavia> without needing to completely redesign the open dialog window
[11:54] <wasabi_> Yeah, it can be done with gtk and nautilus using the same interface.
[11:54] <wasabi_> Supporting the same plugins.
[11:54] <wasabi_> etc
[11:55] <wasabi_> All the explorer plugins that I have installed, such as TortoiseSVN, which allows me to deal with SVN working copies, are all present anywhere a file tree is.
[11:55] <wasabi_> Explorer, Open/Save, most tree views in apps.
[11:56] <jbailey> WTF?  ephy is so confused.
[11:56] <jbailey> jp: I'll add myself to the cC: list as soon as I can convince it to let me log in.
[11:56] <Burgundavia> wasabi, MS has a history of completely redesigning interfaces, seemingly for the sake of doing so
[11:57] <wasabi_> What do you call what we do?
[11:57] <wasabi_> Heh.
[11:57] <jp> jbailey ok :)
[11:57] <wasabi_> As time goes on, changes are though up which may increase usibility. Some don't, some do.
[11:57] <wasabi_> (spatial anyone?)
[11:57] <wasabi_> (new nautilus interface discussed 5 minutes ago)
[11:57] <Burgundavia> spatial is a good idea
[11:57] <Burgundavia> we just are not complete there yet
[11:57] <wasabi_> Dude.
[11:57] <Burgundavia> ly
[11:57] <wasabi_> I think spatial blows goats. =)
[11:57] <wasabi_> And I think MS's HTML interface blows goats.
[11:58] <wasabi_> But apparerently some people like it.
[11:58] <Burgundavia> ok
[11:58] <wasabi_> I shall not insult either group.
[11:58] <Burgundavia> did you see my rant about XP on p.u.c?
[11:58] <Burgundavia> to think I used to use windows 100% of my day
[11:59] <jdthood> thom: ping
[11:59] <wasabi_> one sec reading
[12:00] <wasabi_> First complaint you list is one that is not considered a bad thing by a lot of people.
[12:00] <wasabi_> Myself included.
[12:00] <Burgundavia> one giant menu?
[12:00] <wasabi_> second thing.
[12:00] <wasabi_> =)
[12:00] <wasabi_> I go to www.superprogram.com, download SUper Program 3.0 and install it. It appears in my menu as Super Program 3.0, not "Generic Program That Does Something". I know what to look for before I get there.
[12:01] <wasabi_> And everytime I go there, I know it by name.
[12:01] <Burgundavia> that works if you know what you are looking for
[12:01] <Burgundavia> and is very application centric
[12:01] <wasabi_> When I pay for it, it shows up on my bill as SuperCompany.com
[12:01] <Burgundavia> it falls apart when you have no idea what you are looking for, but know what you want to do
[12:01] <wasabi_> Exactly. Both things are valid.
[12:01] <Burgundavia> which I would say is more important
[12:02] <wasabi_> MS and Apple solved it fairely reasonably.
[12:02] <wasabi_> MS called their text editor notepad. Which is fairly obvious as to function.
[12:02] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:02] <wasabi_> Mail is pretty clear too.
[12:02] <Burgundavia> outlook? evolution?
[12:02] <Burgundavia> evince?
[12:02] <Burgundavia> these are not clear application names
[12:02] <wasabi_> You're right, the problem with them is one of our community.
[12:03] <wasabi_> We have 4 PDF viewers.
[12:03] <Burgundavia> we know have one
[12:03] <wasabi_> And a billion mail readers.
[12:03] <Burgundavia> evince
[12:03] <wasabi_> Okay, good.
[12:03] <Burgundavia> windows has just as many mail readers
[12:03] <wasabi_> Yeah, and they're known by name.
[12:03] <wasabi_> I like Apple's idea. THe bundled stuff becomes generic.
[12:03] <wasabi_> And it becomes pruned down.
[12:03] <wasabi_> But third party stuff stays as it is.
[12:03] <Burgundavia> that is what gnome is also trying to do
[12:04] <Burgundavia> the only place the word evince appears anywhere in the interface is in the about box
[12:04] <Burgundavia> oh wait, it appears in the menu item as well
[12:04] <wasabi_> Rhythmbox was a specific complaint I had, but that's been addressed.