[12:05] <Burgundavia> the non-gnome intergrated stuff tends to be bad
[12:05] <Burgundavia> like audacity, nvu and others
[12:05] <thom> jdthood: pong, kinda
[12:06] <Burgundavia> wasabi, I think the 3 menus is more usuable, because 95% of the time you go to the start menu, you are not looking for hte control panel, and yet there it is
[12:06] <jdthood> thom: Any new thoughts about n-m and resolvconf?
[12:06] <jdthood> thom: I was thinking about network-manager and bind9...
[12:06] <thom> jdthood: Diziet (iwj) has been looking at that too
[12:06] <wasabi_> Yeah I like the 3 menus.
[12:06] <thom> jdthood: will you be at debconf?
[12:07] <jdthood> thom: If n-m uses resolvconf to update resolv.conf then it gets integration with bind9, dnsmasq, pdnsd and nscd for free.
[12:07] <thom> nod
[12:07] <jdthood> thom: No, I don't plan to be at debconf.
[12:07] <thom> ah, shame
[12:08] <jdthood> What is needed, though, is for all nameserver addresses to be sent to resolvconf, not just 127.0.0.1.  Those obtained via DHCP should be stored is separate records.
[12:08] <jdthood> Probably.
[12:09] <jdthood> thom: Anyway, I am using n-m now and it is working well!
[12:11] <jdthood> thom: BTW, how does n-m update bind9's configuration?
[12:11] <lamont> mdz: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/d/dpkg
[12:12] <lamont> thom: there's also a bug outstanding against bind9 to not force 127.0.0.1 as the resolver when bind9 starts
[12:13] <Burgundavia> that is the ugly bug that bites you with n-m in recovery mode?
[12:14] <lamont> Burgundavia: that's the "I'm running a nameserver, but it has a totally diff config than what my resovler needs" bug
[12:14] <lamont> specifically, if you disallow recursion on the nameserver, you probably don't want to point the resolver at it...
[12:15] <thom> jdthood: it writes a config file and starts an instance of bind9 with that config
[12:15] <thom> lamont: nod
[12:15] <jdthood> thom: Where's the file?
[12:17] <thom> jdthood: /var/lib/NetworkManager/NetworkManager-named.conf
[12:18] <jdthood> thom: Was /var/lib chosen over /var/run for some reason?
[12:18] <thom> me forgetting the specifics of the FHS for /var at the time?
[12:18] <thom> ;-)
[12:19] <jdthood> thom: resolvconf writes /var/run/bind/named.options.  This is /etc/bind/named.conf.options with the forwarders statement changed and everything else left alone.
[12:19] <thom> right
[12:19] <jdthood> I see that n-m uses its own template at /usr/share/NetworkManager/named.conf.  I am not sure which way is better.
[12:22] <jdthood> thom: In any case, dnsmasq will be a better choice for many people.  It handles dynamic updating of the forwarders list much less clunkily.
[12:23] <jdthood> thom: resolvconf writes dnsmasq's list at /var/run/dnsmasq/resolv.conf.
[12:23] <thom> the issue is really having something that NM can control. at the moment that's really just bind; going forward hopefully more options are available
[12:23] <thom> anyhow, must go pack
[12:23] <jdthood> OK, catch you later
[12:59] <maswan> ah, nevermind. thanks ajmitch 
[01:12] <mae> is glade3 dead?
[01:20] <malex> I am trying to build a package of mine in a breezy chroot. For some reason the configure fails to find the /usr/include/X11/Intrinsic.h from libxt-dev in this chroot though it finds it fine in a Debian testing or unstable chroots. Neither I or upstream devz can find any differences. Any idea?
[01:20] <malex> http://scribus.tagancha.org/download/config.log.breezy
[01:20] <malex> http://scribus.tagancha.org/download/config.log.testing
[01:51] <malex> Riddell: ping
[03:04] <superted> will hoary see GNOME 2.10.2 ?
[03:08] <calc> breezy already has 2.11.4 if you want new toys :)
[03:09] <superted> hehe
[03:20] <schweeb> what's the current method for bug reporting?  go to malone exclusively, or cross post?
[03:20] <schweeb> (w/ bugzilla)
[03:30] <wasabi> jdub, do I ask you to be on planet ubuntu? :)
[03:30] <jdub> wasabi: you're an ubuntu member?
[03:30] <jdub> (i imagine so!)
[03:31] <wasabi> I'd hope so!
[03:31] <wasabi> Somehow I can upload to main!
[03:31] <jdub> got an rss url and maybe hackergotchi?
[03:31] <jdub> haha
[03:31] <wasabi> no hackergotchi...
[03:31] <wasabi> http://www.larvalstage.net/index.php?/feeds/categories/4-ubuntu.rss
[03:31] <jdub> 'sok, you can appeal for one :)
[03:31] <wasabi> I don't actually have a good real picture of any kind.
[03:31] <jp> hahah
[03:32] <jdub> wasabi: http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.larvalstage.net%2Findex.php%3F%2Ffeeds%2Fcategories%2F4-ubuntu.rss
[03:32] <jp> :)
[03:32] <jdub> ^ nothing important
[03:32] <wasabi> neato page
[03:32] <jdub> jp: are you an ubuntu member?
[03:32] <wasabi> what
[03:32] <jp> jdub no, but I was just joking :-P
[03:32] <wasabi> that error is stupid.
[03:32] <wasabi> a postiive integer?
[03:33] <wasabi> I see. It shouldn't be included if 0?
[03:33] <jdub> guess so
[03:37] <seth_k> wasabi: did you know that http://larvalstage.net goes somewhere different than http://www.larvalstage.net ?
[03:37] <lamont> wo bissen daniels
[03:37] <lamont> yeah, he's plural now.
[03:37] <lamont> :-)
[03:38] <wasabi> does it? probably.
[03:38] <wasabi> oh heh.
[03:38] <bob2> lamont: did you ever get ubuntu to like your cell phone?
[03:38] <wasabi> i left an A on it back in the day for jabber
[03:39] <wasabi> wonder if jabber fixed that
[03:39] <lamont> bob2: no
[03:39] <lamont> hrm... ubuntu seems to be missing slang2
[03:40] <lamont> but has lots of stuff build-dep libslang2-de3v
[03:40] <bob2> my hardware karma is getting worse
[03:41] <lamont> heh
[03:41] <bob2> a second switch just stopped working
[03:41] <bob2> nah, it's not contagious, it only affects things I buy
[03:42] <lamont> anyway, short night tonight.
[03:42] <bob2> adios, lamont
[03:49] <jdub> wasabi: i've committed, will have to wait on an update from elmo
[03:50] <wasabi> oh? I have no idea how that stuff works.
[03:50] <wasabi> you having to commit something and wait for elmo seems pretty damned weird though
[03:51] <tseng> it needs a manual push to the server
[03:51] <tseng> giving jdub direct access would make elmo cry
[03:51] <wasabi> I was expecting that there was a "login" button.
[03:51] <wasabi> To an "admin" page.
[03:51] <wasabi> Which let you add new feeds.
[03:52] <tseng> its a flat file
[03:54] <Amaranth> jdub: can nalioth be an op in #ubuntu? he has been a lot of help and seems to fit into a gap in the coverage
[03:54] <Amaranth> btw, is the us mirror having problems?
[05:13] <mxpxpod> does anyone here have network-manager working with linux-wlan-ng?
[05:15] <mxpxpod> network-manager seems to report my wlan-ng card as a wired network interface
[05:23] <bob2> where was "backports are official" announced?
[05:35] <rob^> was it ever?
[05:49] <bob2> it was on the forums
[05:53] <schweeb> bob2: ubuntu-devel
[05:53] <schweeb> the mailing list
[05:56] <fabbione> morning
[06:00] <fabbione> Setting up x-common (1.02) ...
[06:00] <fabbione>  /usr/bin/X11 still contains files (are they locally installed?)
[06:00] <fabbione> Please examine the following list and either delete these
[06:00] <fabbione> files, or relocate them to /usr/bin, then reinstall x-common:
[06:00] <fabbione> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[06:00] <fabbione> wtf is this??
[06:01] <fabbione>  /usr/bin/X11/cpp-4.0
[06:01] <fabbione> ??????
[06:01] <schweeb> whoa
[06:01] <schweeb> definitely haven't gotten that one
[06:01] <fabbione> (clean install btw)
[06:02] <infinity> fabbione : ...
[06:02] <fabbione> infinity: fix that crap. kthxbye
[06:02] <fabbione> infinity: i got that in a buildd chroot
[06:02] <infinity> fabbione : /usr/bin/X11 is a directory?
[06:02] <fabbione> clearly cpp-4.0 is not in X11/
[06:02] <infinity> fabbione : Or is it a symlink, and I'm a shell crackwhore.
[06:02] <fabbione>  /usr/bin/X11/X11:
[06:02] <schweeb> chris@schweeb-x41:/usr/bin/X11$ pwd
[06:02] <schweeb> /usr/bin/X11
[06:02] <fabbione> ls -asl X11
[06:02] <fabbione> 0 lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root 6 Jul  8 03:56 X11 -> ../bin
[06:03] <infinity> Right, I'm an idiot.
[06:03] <fabbione> schweeb: pwd is useless in that case
[06:03] <schweeb> chris@schweeb-x41:/usr/bin/X11$ ls -l cpp*
[06:03] <schweeb> lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root     7 2005-06-30 19:29 cpp -> cpp-4.0
[06:03] <schweeb> -rwxr-xr-x  1 root root 86192 2005-06-22 09:46 cpp-3.3
[06:03] <schweeb> -rwxr-xr-x  1 root root 85712 2005-07-06 13:09 cpp-3.4
[06:03] <schweeb> -rwxr-xr-x  1 root root 89784 2005-07-01 22:48 cpp-4.0
[06:03] <infinity> [ -d ]  is true for symlinks to directories as well as real directories.
[06:03] <infinity> Fixing now.
[06:03] <schweeb> fabbione: redundancy is good :)
[06:03] <fabbione> schweeb: usually i don't lie to infinity :)
[06:04] <fabbione> inflicting pain is more fun :P
[06:04] <schweeb> lol
[06:04] <schweeb> infinity sleeps with the fishes?
[06:04] <daniels> infinity: yeah, was planning to harass you about that and get you to upload it for me when I came over
[06:04] <daniels> infinity: even better
[06:04] <rob^> has anyone installed daemontools before? which is the recommended approch, the djb format or fhs?
[06:04] <rob^> probably better to ask here
[06:05] <infinity> rob^ : I tend to recommend not installing them.
[06:06] <rob^> I wanted to have a look at djbdns is all
[06:06] <rob^> maybe I might stick to bind
[06:07] <rob^> why do they make all the non-standard directories?
[06:57] <tiglionabbit> hey guys, I found a predictable way to crash kaffeine
[06:57] <tiglionabbit> or is that more of a kubuntu thing?
[06:59] <tiglionabbit> anyway, it has an odd behavior of continuing to run after a control-C at terminal.  After that, clicking on certain features will cause it to die
[08:01] <rob^> thanks
[10:18] <JaneW> when does debconf5 end?
[10:27] <jvw> JaneW: when it's ready ;)
[10:27] <jvw> (17 july)
[10:29] <fabbione> hmm the new udev isn't exactly user friendly....
[10:34] <fabbione> Kamion: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/partman.diff
[10:34] <fabbione> Kamion: mind if i upload+
[10:35] <fabbione> apparently the new udev is more picky about device creations...
[10:35] <fabbione> change is trivial and not intrusive
[10:35] <fabbione> (and it fixes the problems i am getting here)
[10:36] <JaneW> jvw: hehe, thanks
[10:43] <doko> good morning
[10:44] <ivoks> morning
[10:46] <Kamion> fabbione: how about I just do that upstream now
[10:47] <fabbione> Kamion: that works for me, but take into account we need it very fast
[10:47] <fabbione> otherwise part* fails to format the partitions :)
[10:47] <fabbione> Kamion: i also uploaded p-a-l 2ubuntu2 to fix the partition size calculation...
[10:47] <fabbione> Kamion: and i splitted the patches..
[10:48] <fabbione> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/pal/2_to_2ubuntu1/ <- old patches
[10:48] <fabbione> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/pal/2ubuntu1_to_2ubuntu2/ <- new ones
[10:50] <Kamion> fabbione: committed upstream, but go ahead and upload it to Ubuntu, we're branched anyway
[10:50] <fabbione> Kamion: ok thanks
[10:51] <fabbione> done...
[10:53] <fabbione> morning mdz
[10:59] <mdz> fabbione: mroning
[10:59] <mdz> morning
[11:11] <mdke_> morning all
[11:17] <Ferry|Teched> lol Microsoft is using ubuntu in a teched presentation
[11:17] <Ferry|Teched> to demonstrate the new scm in visual studio team system
[11:21] <Mez> how did you find that out
[11:22] <Ferry|Teched> well im in the presentation now
[11:22] <Ferry|Teched> using wifi
[11:23] <Mez> lol - take pictures :D
[11:23] <Ferry|Teched> if all goes well i will get the demo on video
[11:26] <Mez> lol
[11:26] <Mez> kool
[11:26] <Mez> ;)
[11:26] <mdke_> nice one Ferry|Teched 
[11:29] <Mez> afternoon Scott
[11:30] <Keybuk> morning
[11:35] <mdke> smurfix, reping
[11:46] <mdz> infinity: did elmo talk with you about the current status of -backports?
[11:46] <mdz> lamont,infinity: something about sbuild/wanna-build/etc. being tilde-intolerant
[11:47] <Mez> lol
[11:56] <seb128> herzi: around?
[11:57] <herzi> yo
[11:58] <seb128> herzi: should I go with mclasen's update patch for the font capplet?
[11:58] <seb128> or you are still both discussing changeS?
[11:59] <smurfix> mdke: re
[11:59] <mdke> smurfix, sorry to disturb, i have a couple of questions
[12:00] <smurfix> mdke: shoot
[12:01] <mdke> smurfix, i've made an ssh key for ubuntu-it and signed it with my gpg key. question 1 is do you need it encrypted with your key too? question 2 is, is it possible for more people than me to use it? we had intended giving access to the website to our web group, access to the wiki to our wiki group, access to the forum to the forum group etc. You think this is gonna be possible?
[12:03] <herzi> seb128: just go with it, we had some discussions, i will them later
[12:03] <smurfix> mdke: You don't need to encrypt public keys, they're public ;-)
[12:04] <smurfix> If somebody else want access too, I need their pubkey
[12:04] <mdke> k
[12:04] <smurfix> don't share private ssh keys
[12:04] <mdke> smurfix, k
[12:05] <mdke> smurfix, is there any possibility of giving different people access to different things? or is that too complicated?
[12:05] <smurfix> wiki/forum/... access control is usually done through the web, I don't envision people logging in with ssh for that
[12:05] <mdke> smurfix, ok for forum, but for wiki we're hoping to copy files across from the current wiki
[12:05] <mdke> actually ditto for forum database
[12:06] <smurfix> that should be a one-time-only job, right?
[12:06] <mdke> yes
[12:06] <smurfix> so just trust people on that day not to step onto each other's feet (or worse)
[12:07] <mdke> smurfix, ok that should be fine
[12:07] <mdke> smurfix, sending key now
[12:08] <mdke> smurfix, oh btw my gpg key is not in the trusted set, is that going to be a problem?
[12:09] <smurfix> what's the fingerprint?
[12:09] <mdke> AF99 4F01 E749 720E 0C3B  1CC7 B526 85D3 0E6B 06FF
[12:10] <mdke> henrik has signed it, but that's all
[12:10] <mdke> he's not trusted yet ;)
[12:12] <smurfix> biglumber.com is your friend ...
[12:12] <Mez> mdke, you dont have a pg key in the strong set ?
[12:12] <mdke> not yet
[12:12] <Mez> and I thought you had upload!
[12:12] <mdke> to what?
[12:13] <Mez> ubuntu
[12:13] <Treenaks> I'll be in Berlin at the beginning of September.. so if anyone there needs a sig :)
[12:13] <mdke> erm... no
[12:13] <Mez> some people here give the impression they're devs :D
[12:13] <Mez> I always thought you were a dev already
[12:13] <Mez> mdke - where you based?
[12:13] <mdke> that doesn't sound like a complement
[12:13] <mdke> london
[12:14] <fabbione> Kamion: i think we can start somehow to include p-a-l as part of the install path.. tough that breezy can't install today
[12:14] <mdke> smurfix, got the email?
[12:14] <Mez> mdke: if you live in london - just check out biglumber, there's a few people there who'll sign
[12:14] <mdke> Mez, yeah i know
[12:14] <Mez> mdke: so whats the trouble getting it signed :D
[12:14] <smurfix> mdke: no. Where'd you send it to?
[12:14] <fabbione> Kamion: the last version fixes handling of some recipes...
[12:14] <fabbione> hi elmo
[12:15] <mdke> smurfix, smurf@smurf.noris.de
[12:15] <fabbione> elmo: concordia is dead again, but i guess you alredy know that
[12:15] <thom> elmo: last minute data centre fun? :_
[12:15] <thom> )
[12:16] <elmo> thom: yeah, I figure leaving 2 pallets worth of gear upstairs but outside our area for a week while I'm in debconf might not make me many friends at mnet
[12:16] <thom> heh, maybe not
[12:16] <mdke> elmo, if you can find time to do some docteam svn accounts we would love you forever
[12:16] <fabbione> elmo: send them here :) i will give them a lot of love
[12:17] <fabbione> elmo: i can even sing them a goodnight song ;)
[12:17] <smurfix> mdke: you got smapfiltered on account of 212.74.114.48 being listed in a bunch of RBLs
[12:17] <smurfix> spamfiltered
[12:17] <mdke> smurfix, ah shit i'll try again from another account shall i?
[12:17] <smurfix> mdke: Now please throw away your SSH key, generate a new one, and send me the *public* part. :-/
[12:18] <smurfix> no, I got it, that's not the real problem. ;-)
[12:18] <mdke> eh?
[12:18] <mdke> i followed a guide...
[12:18] <smurfix> you need to send the file "id_dsa.pub", not "id_dsa"
[12:18] <mdke> ok will start again, thanks
[12:21] <Kamion> fabbione: that's entirely controlled by its priority - just bump that to standard and it'll be used
[12:21] <Kamion> fabbione: shall I do that?
[12:27] <mdke> smurfix, resent
[12:30] <Mez> what's he mean to resent
[12:30] <mdke> haha
[12:31] <Mez> ooh
[12:31] <Mez> shineh
[12:31] <Mez> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hoary-backports/
[12:32] <mdke> do we have a summary of the backports meeting yet?
[12:32] <fabbione> Kamion: 12392.. do you realize that ppc64-di is created on the base of ppc-di.. same file.. i make no difference
[12:32] <mdke> or any copy of the rules for backports?
[12:32] <Mez> we have a copy of the rules :D
[12:32] <Kamion> fabbione: well I'm just looking at the diff
[12:32] <Mez> but not a summary of the meeting
[12:33] <mdke> Mez, have you got a url for me?
[12:33] <Kamion> I'm checking out the source now to look
[12:33] <Mez> just finding it mdke 
[12:33] <fabbione> Kamion: nic-modules:drivers/net/sungem.o
[12:33] <fabbione> it's there and mandatory
[12:33] <Mez> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=40291
[12:33] <Kamion> is sungem build for -powerpc64-smp-di?
[12:33] <Kamion> er, let's try that again
[12:33] <Mez> i's in there under Can I ask for packages to be backported?
[12:33] <Kamion> is sungem built in the powerpc64-smp config?
[12:34] <fabbione> powerpc64-smp:CONFIG_SUNGEM=m
[12:34] <fabbione> yes
[12:34] <fabbione> let me check also the build-log
[12:34] <fabbione> but i am sure
[12:34] <fabbione> it's there
[12:34] <mdke> Mez, ok thanks, that should probably be on the wiki. Who applies those rules?
[12:35] <fabbione>   CC [M]   drivers/net/sungem.o
[12:35] <fabbione>   CC [M]   drivers/net/sungem_phy.o
[12:35] <Mez> how do you mean "applies" them
[12:35] <mdke> Mez, who ensures they are complied with?
[12:35] <Mez> the BP team .
[12:36] <mdke> ok
[12:36] <mdke> is there any interaction with -devel?
[12:36] <Mez> mdke :D jsut had a chat with mdzz about this all actually
[12:37] <Mez> anything that doesnt auto-backport will have to be fixed upstream (aka in breezy)
[12:37] <Mez> so that'll mean wotking with -devel and -motu
[12:37] <mdke> sure
[12:37] <mdke> so will you guys use the same mailing list? or carry on using the forum?
[12:38] <Mez> that hasnt been discussed yet
[12:39] <fabbione> Kamion: amen.. this is a bug.. a weird one
[12:39] <Kamion> * from archive cached: kernel-team@ubuntu.com--2005/kernel-debian--pre1--2.6.11.91--patch-33
[12:39] <Kamion> * Applying 85 revisions: .....................
[12:39] <Kamion> hmm, this is going to take a while :-/
[12:39] <Kamion> you guys need to cacherev more often
[12:40] <fabbione> Kamion: i think it's a bug in kernel-wedge
[12:40] <fabbione> because the powerpc and powerpc64 shares the same d-i file lists
[12:40] <fabbione> and the driver is definetely built and shipped
[12:40] <fabbione>  essbee [~sb@nat-pool-brisbane.redhat.com]  has joined #linux-cluster
[12:40] <fabbione> ops
[12:40] <fabbione> linux-image-2.6.12-3-powerpc64-smp_2.6.12-3.3_powerpc.deb
[12:40] <fabbione> -rw-r--r-- root/root     68297 2005-07-04 18:32:18 ./lib/modules/2.6.12-3-powerpc64-smp/kernel/drivers/net/sungem.ko
[12:40] <fabbione> -rw-r--r-- root/root     23887 2005-07-04 18:32:18 ./lib/modules/2.6.12-3-powerpc64-smp/kernel/drivers/net/sungem_phy.ko
[12:41] <fabbione> and it's listed...
[12:41] <fabbione> but it doesn't appear in any udeb
[12:44] <fabbione> Kamion: i got it...
[12:44] <fabbione> don't worry..
[12:44] <fabbione> i will need to cleanup nic-* and scsi-* asap
[12:44] <Mez> hmm
[12:45] <Mez> what's colin watson's IRC nickname/
[12:45] <fabbione> Kamion: apparently kernel-wedge doesn't error anymore if a module is missing
[12:45] <mdke> Kamion
[12:45] <Treenaks> Mez: Kamion 
[12:45] <fabbione> and it creates half empty udebs
[12:45] <Mez> aha :D
[12:45] <fabbione> Kamion: i think the same problem is with all the other arches
[12:45] <Kamion> I thought you ignored those errors
[12:46] <fabbione> Kamion: no.. remember a long time ago that i was ignoring them.. we had this exactly same issue?
[12:46] <fabbione> Kamion: i did revert that behaviour so that the kernel would FTBFS if the modules were missing..
[12:46] <tseng> thom: does breezy not have the cisco vpn n-m stuffs?
[12:46] <tseng> thom: i cant find it
[12:46] <fabbione> Kamion: but apparently it has been done in kernel-wedge...
[12:47] <fabbione> Kamion: nullifing my checks...
[12:47] <thom> tseng: not yet, no
[12:47] <tseng> thom: ..there it is
[12:47] <thom> oh, you mean vpnc?
[12:47] <fabbione> Kamion: ok.. let's do this way.. upload kernel-wedge 2 when you have time
[12:47] <tseng> nm-vpn-properties
[12:47] <fabbione> Kamion: and i will switch to it and finish the cleanup in one go
[12:47] <thom> tseng: there's a tonne missing from that, it won't work
[12:47] <tseng> ok
[12:48] <Kamion> kernel-wedge hasn't changed much, and it *looks* like it should error
[12:48] <Kamion> but ok, I'll work on that
[12:49] <fabbione> Kamion: i am 100% sure i am not | true anymore :)
[12:49] <fabbione> Kamion: so if kernel-wedge doesn't fail.. i don't as a consequence
[12:50] <Kamion> it's all set -e
[12:50] <Kamion> weird
[12:51] <fabbione> what is weird is why it does include the module for ppc and not for ppc64
[12:51] <fabbione> ah well.. no
[12:51] <fabbione> sorry.. forget the last line
[01:05] <mdke> smurfix, did you get the mail this time?
[01:05] <mdke> smurfix, i tried a different account
[01:06] <smurfix> mdke: looks slightly more sensible this time ;-)
[01:07] <smurfix> mdke: You can now login to ubuntu-it@ubuntu-it.org
[01:07] <mdke> smurfix, ok trying that
[01:09] <mdke> smurfix, sorry for being thick, but its asking for a password. Shouldn't it be asking for the key passphrase?
[01:10] <smurfix> if it finds / knows about the private key
[01:10] <smurfix> where did you store that?
[01:10] <infinity> mdz : Yes, I'm on it.
[01:10] <Kamion> quickest way to debug that is generally to try with ssh -vvv
[01:10] <mdke> smurfix, ~/.ssh/ubuntu-it_dsa
[01:10] <Kamion> are you using ssh -i ~/.ssh/ubuntu-it_dsa ?
[01:10] <mdke> Kamion, trying, thanks
[01:11] <Kamion> you can configure that in .ssh/config
[01:11] <Kamion> so:
[01:11] <Kamion> Host ubuntu-it
[01:11] <Kamion>         HostName actual.name.of.host
[01:12] <Kamion>         IdentityFile ubuntu-it_dsa
[01:12] <mdke> Kamion, awesome the -i option worked, will sort config now, thanks a lot!
[01:12] <smurfix> there's no(t much) need for a separate private key however -- I'd just move it to .ssh/id_dsa[.pub] 
[01:13] <mdke> smurfix, sorry for noobness, i can just use mv?
[01:14] <smurfix> sure. I assume you don't actually have a .ssh/id_dsa file yet
[01:14] <Kamion> actually IdentityFile needs an absolute path, I think
[01:14] <Kamion> but anyway
[01:14] <mdke> Kamion, i'll check the docs
[01:14] <smurfix> Will you need a mysql database?
[01:15] <mdke> smurfix, yes for the forum i think. I will ask the forum guys
[01:15] <mdke> smurfix, actually I have an id_dsa but I can scrap it and use the new one
[01:16] <smurfix> if you don't actually use it for anything, sure
[01:17] <mdke> i use it for logging into a machine on my local network, but i will replace it will the new one
[01:20] <mdke> smurfix, the other thing was, we'd be interested in finding out what it takes to become an official locoteam
[01:20] <smurfix> mdke: commitment, basically. Let me look at your entry
[01:23] <smurfix> mdke: thought so ;-) you still don't have a team contact person. Fix it and show up at the next Community Council meeting
[01:23] <mdke> yes we decided on a contact only yesterday
[01:26] <smurfix> mdke: So add a wiki page ;-)
[01:26] <mdke> the wiki page is there, its ItalianTeam
[01:27] <Mez> how do i make a new page in the wiki?
[01:27] <mdke> its linked at LoCoTeamList, should it be linked elsewhere?
[01:27] <mdke> Mez, make a link then click on it, then click on "create page"
[01:27] <Mez> ah :D
[01:28] <mdke> Mez, there are some good docs if you click on Help or go to HelpContents
[01:28] <Mez> nah I just ahvent mad a new one yet :d
[01:29] <Mez> I've come across the "not found page" loadsa times never noticed the "create this page"
[01:29] <mdke> ;)
[01:30] <Mez> godamn this is taking ages
[01:30] <mdke> i can help if you like
[01:30] <mdke> wassup?
[01:30] <Mez> who would have thought uplaoding acroread would tak ethis long
[01:31] <Mez> no ... I'm trying to upload acroread to backports
[01:31] <Mez> it's just taking foreVER
[01:31] <Mez> well t would
[01:31] <Mez> it's 38 meg
[01:42] <Mez> o_O @ the Ubuntu Foundation thing
[01:48] <nomed> hi all
[01:49] <nomed> in debian there is a file pmount.allow
[01:49] <nomed> is there something like that in hoary 
[01:49] <uniq> you can create it yourself.
[01:52] <nomed> uniq, i solved now adduser nomed disk
[01:52] <nomed> but is that file still needed in this way
[01:53] <Kamion> pmount in Debian comes from Ubuntu
[01:53] <nomed> umm... well Error: device /dev/hda3 is not removable
[01:54] <nomed> Kamion, i know .. but how to pmount not removable devices 
[01:54] <nomed> adduser nomed disk ... still not working
[01:56] <Kamion> ogra: you followed up to ubuntu-users@ rather than sounder@
[01:56] <thom> nomed: user support questions in #ubuntu, please
[01:56] <ogra> Kamion, oh, sorry :)
[01:57] <ogra> i'll regard it next time....
[01:58] <fabbione> Kamion: sorry to be repetitive, did you see my message (above) about p-a-l ? can we start to include it for testing?=
[01:58] <fabbione> (i didn't see any answer )
[01:58] <nomed> thom, ok but  they seems to don't know .. i would just know if pmount.allow file is used by pmount
[02:01] <Kamion> 11:21 < Kamion> fabbione: that's entirely controlled by its priority - just bump that to standard and it'll be used
[02:01] <Kamion> 11:21 < Kamion> fabbione: shall I do that?
[02:01] <Kamion> fabbione: ^--
[02:01] <fabbione> ops
[02:01] <fabbione> i missed that .. sorry
[02:01] <fabbione> is an upload enough?
[02:02] <fabbione> or do we need to edit the override?
[02:02] <Kamion> no upload needed
[02:02] <fabbione> ok..
[02:02] <fabbione> i can't edit the overrides
[02:02] <fabbione> so there isn't much of a choise :)
[02:02] <fabbione> sure go ahead.. it needs testing
[02:02] <Kamion> I: Will change priority from optional to standard
[02:02] <Kamion> done
[02:02] <fabbione> thanks
[02:03] <fabbione> Kamion: last thing.. we should look together 2 minutes to InstallerVolumeManagement specs in regards of the UI
[02:03] <fabbione> you tell me when you have time....
[02:03] <Kamion> sure - I'll have to look at what's there now first
[02:03] <fabbione> even monday would be fine...
[02:03] <fabbione> ah cool
[02:03] <fabbione> sure
[02:04] <Kamion> ooh, d-i upstream gets raid/lilo fixes
[02:24] <Kamion> daniels: do you have a fix pending for #12205?
[02:25] <seb128> elmo: gnome-games-extra-data sync please
[02:28] <fabbione> Kamion: i am heading to bed.. i am not feeling too good.. sorry.. can you add comments to the specs if you have any?
[02:31] <Kamion> sure
[02:34] <fabbione> thanks
[02:41] <hunger_>  /dev/input/mice went missing today.
[02:51] <Mez> Failed to fetch http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hoary-security/restricted/binary-i386/Packages.gz  This HTTP server has broken range support [IP: 82.211.81.151 80] 
[02:51] <Mez> broken range support?
[02:54] <jbailey> hunger_: Current breezy?
[02:54] <hunger_> jbailey: Yeap.
[02:54] <hunger_> jbailey: I updated udev today, maybe that is the culprit.
[02:54] <jbailey> I did a udev update last night.
[02:55] <hunger_> jbailey: Did you reboot?
[02:55] <jbailey> Hmm, I have /dev/input/mice here.
[02:55] <jbailey> hunger_: Yes. =)
[02:55] <hunger_> jbailey: Damn:-(
[02:55] <chrissturm> hunger, do you run the .12 kernel? the udev releasenotes said that it only works well with the .12 kernel
[02:56] <hunger> jbailey: I got mouse0 and mouse1, so something is working.
[02:56] <hunger> chrissturm: I am on breezy... that has a .12 kernel:-)
[02:56] <jbailey> chrissturm: It works best with .12, It should work with everything from .10 on.
[02:57] <hunger> chrissturm: 2.6.12-3-686.
[02:58] <jbailey> hunger: Gimme a sec.
[02:58] <jbailey> hunger: Can you hop into /sys/class/input ?
[02:58] <chrissturm> hunger, i run breezy with .10 because wep is broken for ipw2100 on .12
[02:58] <jbailey> Is there a directory there called "mice"?
[02:59] <jbailey> chrissturm: If the next update of udev is allowed (It might be to allow boot-time speedups) it will require 2.6.12
[02:59] <jbailey> It's going into Debian this weekend, so we might wind up inheriting it.
[02:59] <hunger> jbailey: Yeap. Contains a file called dev with the device numbers.
[03:00] <jbailey> Did you plug in your mouse after the computer was running, or was it always plugged in?
[03:00] <jbailey> (Checking to see if we missed an event, or if coldplugging missed it for you)
[03:00] <hunger> jbailey: The touchpad/stick is build into the laptop.
[03:01] <hunger> jbailey: And both mouse0 and mouse1 are there. it is just mice that is missing.
[03:01] <jbailey> Right, but I don't know the input layer that well - I don't know if the creation of 'mice' is a separate event, I assume it is.
[03:01] <jbailey> Have you reboooted more than once to see if its a transient problem?
[03:02] <hunger> jbailey: Possible... but since sysfs has mice udev should have created it.
[03:02] <hunger> jbailey: I booted twice.
[03:02] <jbailey> Cool, so it's reproducable. 
[03:02] <torkel> chrissturm: fabbione built a new kernel yesterday with ip2x00 fixed. It is not uploaded, but you can fetch it from http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/linux-image-2.6.12-3-686_2.6.12-3.4_i386.deb if you want to try it
[03:02] <Mez> fecking great
[03:02] <jbailey> If you run 'udevstart' as root, does it create it now?
[03:03] <Mez> my paypal account's been locked
[03:03] <jbailey> Mez: It's what happens when you ignore the emails that they get telling you to update your account ;P
[03:03] <hunger> jbailey: Yes, that creates it.
[03:03] <Mez> jbailey: I updated it, even though i had to update if by fone.
[03:03] <Mez> bastards
[03:04] <hunger> torkel: Do you happen to know whether that contains the fixes for tpm as well?
[03:04] <chrissturm> thanks torkel
[03:04] <Mez> sorry for my language
[03:04] <jbailey> hunger: Hmm.  Lemme do a test here.  I suspect there's still just an event that's being missed somewhere.
[03:04] <jbailey> hunger: Will you be online for a bit?
[03:04] <hunger> damn... those static device numbers were so easy to use.
[03:04] <Lathiat> assumedly mousedev is actually loaded?
[03:04] <hunger> jbailey: Yeap.
[03:05] <hunger> Lathiat: mousedev and psmouse are loaded (psmouse is in /etc/modules)
[03:05] <Lathiat> Mez: hahahaha
[03:05] <Lathiat> Mez: how mjuch money is in it? ;p
[03:05] <Mez> *Shrugs* I've no idea
[03:06] <Lathiat> nothing substatial then?
[03:06] <hunger> Lathiat: it did work till yesterday. I did not change anything (I think:-)
[03:06] <torkel> hunger: probably not. It was just a quick build to solve the ipw2x00 problems
[03:07] <hunger> torkel: Well, I can always build my own kernel with the fixes I need. If only I weren't so damn lazy:-)
[03:08] <torkel> hunger: or you can file a bug and he will probably get to it sooner or later :-)
[03:08] <hunger> torkel: I did, I even attached the necessary fix.
[03:08] <Mez> doubtful lathiat.
[03:08] <lool> w00t, I wonder whether debootstrap / pbuilder can cross-debootstrap breezy from sid
[03:08] <lool> I failed with sid's, and breezy's debootstrap+pbuilder
[03:08] <torkel> hunger: then you just have to sit back and wait :-)
[03:09] <lool> /usr/bin/apt-get: error while loading shared libraries: libstdc++.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
[03:09] <hunger> torkel: unfortunately that is somewhat big and changes the ABI somewhat. So fabbione said he must test it and might not be able to include it at this time at all.
[03:09] <Lathiat> hunger: include what?
[03:10] <lool> (this was possible for warty, and hoary)
[03:10] <Mez> oh my god: the thing says to contact them by email - then it tells you in the autpo-respond to go use a fecking web form! GRR@ PAYPAL
[03:10] <hunger> Lathiat: The patch I grabbed from the TPM module CVS to fix detection of said chip in thinkpads and some other devices.
[03:10] <Lathiat> ah
[03:10] <Lathiat> what is that?
[03:10] <hunger> Lathiat: Trusted Platform Module. Crypto thingy build into new devices.
[03:10] <Lathiat> ah
[03:10] <Lathiat> whats it do?
[03:11] <hunger> Lathiat: The basis for TCPA/Paladium.
[03:11] <Lathiat> isnt that that evil stuff?
[03:11] <hunger> Lathiat: Basically it provides a secure key storage.
[03:11] <hunger> Lathiat: TPM provides a secure storage for keys... building on that you can do evil stuff.
[03:12] <Lathiat> how is it different to a crypto disk?
[03:12] <hunger> Lathiat: It does not encrypt the disk:-)
[03:12] <Mez>  What is Error 3018?
[03:12] <Mez>  If you receive a Error 3018 message when attempting to access your PayPal account, it may have been frozen due to information submitted that is believed to be inaccurate.
[03:12] <Mez> GRR
[03:12] <Lathiat> i mean like, if i had a crypted disk and threw my keys on that, how is it different
[03:12] <hunger> Lathiat: seriously: TPM is more like a smartcard: It stores keys only.
[03:12] <Lathiat> and what, you need some kind of passphrase to unlock it?
[03:13] <hunger> Lathiat: Yeap.
[03:13] <jbailey> hunger: 'kay, I'm firing up my laptop to test this.  It might be that my main system mouse is usb so is seen different.
[03:13] <Lathiat> so could i stuck my ssh key in there?
[03:13] <hunger> Lathiat: And the proper chip... or you can bind the key to a certain configuration (like BIOS version, etc.)
[03:14] <hunger> Lathiat: You can not get to the keys outside the TPM module... you might transfer them, but they can not exist in a decrypted state outside of the chip.
[03:15] <Lathiat> hunger: oh so you send data to the tpm module and it decrypts it fo ryou?
[03:15] <Lathiat> hunger: so it literally is like a smartcard
[03:15] <hunger> Lathiat: Yes, it can do that. But only small chunks (like other keys) and it does so slowly.
[03:15] <Lathiat> right
[03:15] <Lathiat> so what the hell is the point of that? :)
[03:15] <hunger> Lathiat: Smartcard + configuration registers.
[03:16] <Lathiat> just an inbuilt smartcard i guess
[03:16] <hunger> Lathiat: configuration registers are used to examine the state of the computer (basically hashes of BIOS, bootrecord, etc.).
[03:18] <hunger> Lathiat: So the bootloader can check that the device wasn't tampered with.... and cause the TPM to check other files like the kernel, etc which in turn could check the modules, ...
[03:18] <hunger> Lathiat: The infrastructure is not there with linux yet of course.
[03:19] <Lathiat> right
[03:19] <Lathiat> so what can you do with it now?
[03:19] <hunger> Lathiat: Store keys. Nothing a smartcard can't do.
[03:19] <Lathiat> right
[03:19] <Lathiat> can i use it with ssh and its smartcard type stuff?
[03:19] <hunger> Lathiat: Not yet.
[03:20] <Lathiat> so basically
[03:20] <Lathiat> in theory
[03:20] <Lathiat> i could authorize this laptop to ssh somewhere
[03:20] <Lathiat> if not tampered with
[03:20] <Lathiat> if you took the disk, it wouldnt work
[03:21] <hunger> Lathiat: in theory you could allow this laptop (provided it was not tampered with) to ssh in all other untampered computers in your company.
[03:22] <hunger> Lathiat: There is a remote assestation protocol which allows to figure out that a device is untempered with remotely.
[03:22] <Lathiat> ah, interesting
[03:22] <Lathiat> bah
[03:22] <hunger> Lathiat: The whole concept is to allow for "secure" distribution of stuff.
[03:22] <Lathiat> mjy laptop broke
[03:22] <Lathiat> i blame network manager
[03:22] <Lathiat> is ate my dns
[03:24] <Kamion> the basic idea of TPM is not that bad; it's just a shame that the actual protocols are dreadful designed-by-committee things
[03:24] <hunger> Kamion: The actuall TPM related stuff is actually rather well thought out.
[03:24] <Kamion> the core specification is hundreds of pages long, and you have to read more multi-hundred-page specifications to get to anything useful
[03:24] <jdthood> Lathiat: What's the problem (more precisely)?
[03:25] <Kamion> hunger: I've studied all the specifications in a previous life at a crypto company; I respectfully disagree
[03:25] <hunger> Kamion: No idea how the higher levels of the TSS look like though.
[03:25] <Kamion> hunger: I *think* it's sound, but it's so overdesigned that it's very difficult to tell, which is a poor property for a security-critical protocol to possess
[03:26] <Kamion> it could have been much simpler and provided the same level of security with more useful features
[03:26] <Kamion> (basic crypto ops)
[03:26] <hunger> Kamion: I studied them as well and rather liked them. But I am not a security expert, so my oppinion does not count.
[03:26] <hunger> Kamion: Plus I read the CORBA security service spec, so I might just be used to worse stuff;-)
[03:27] <Kamion> quite possibly ...
[03:27] <Kamion> CORBA was design-by-committee too
[03:28] <Kamion> though I don't know it nearly as well
[03:28] <hunger> Kamion: Sure... but I think they were afraid of not being allowed to export the chip. So everything that is actually useful had to be moved off-chip.
[03:28] <hunger> Kamion: CORBA is bad... but its security service is way worse than the rest.
[03:28] <Kamion> er I don't see how that applies, they already have plenty of basic crypto ops in there
[03:29] <Kamion> and a sufficiency of algorithms. I'm just talking about making the available methods more orthogonal and easier to use without creating barmy container structures and such
[03:29] <hunger> Kamion: Only for very limited amounts of data and extremly slow.
[03:29] <Kamion> sure, but the design means you aren't supposed to use them for bulk ciphering
[03:29] <Kamion> so that doesn't matter much
[03:30] <jbailey> hunger: Hmm, I can't reproduce on my laptop here either.
[03:34] <hunger> jbailey: Too bad.
[03:35] <hunger> jbailey: How could I debug this?
[03:36] <elmo> lamont/infinity/pitti: ?
[03:36] <jbailey> hunger: Still thinking on that way.
[03:36] <jbailey> s/way/one/
[03:40] <seb128> daniels: around?
[03:41] <jbailey> hunger: What's the second mouse on your system?
[03:42] <hunger> jbailey: mouse0 is the touchpad, mouse1 the stick thingy IBM insists on having.
[03:46] <Kamion> fabbione: oh, I think new upstream kernel-wedge indeed fixes the exit code lossage; it was being lost in the first part of a pipeline, it seems
[03:55] <jbailey> hunger: Can you check the output "cat /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug" please?
[03:55] <hunger> jbailey: the usual /sbin/udevsend
[03:57] <jbailey> hunger: I'm just tracking through to see if there's any chance that the hotplug handler wasn't set when udevstart got called so something might have gotten missed.
[03:59] <jbailey> hunger: I think I'll need to find a way of logging the hotplug events at startup and compare you system to a known working one.
[04:04] <hunger> jbailey: udev is not really logging all that much:-(
[04:05] <lamont> elmo: sup?
[04:06] <seb128> elmo: gdesklets sync please
[04:09] <HWolf> seb128, got a bit of time? I thought up an idea, and want to hear how stupid it sounds.
[04:09] <seb128> HWolf: sure
[04:10] <infinity> elmo : ?
[04:12] <HWolf> seb128, I read that discussion going on about all the applets and the UI discussion that followed from that on gnome-hackers, and that made me wonder if it'd be an idea to ship a sort of bug-buddy like system, but put it in the UI at least during development versions. This would be a button that the user could press if he encountered something that seems awkward to him, in the interface or when something doesn't behave as expected by the use
[04:12] <HWolf> r. 
[04:13] <jdub> HWolf: the "wtf" button
[04:13] <ogra> ui-bugbuddy ?
[04:13] <HWolf> something like that
[04:14] <HWolf> Something that's handy every time you get annoyed by something. - press the button, it then asks you to click on the offending program/menu/button, traces it, and allows you to give a comment about why it is annoying, didn't behave as expected, or bugs you.
[04:15] <seb128> HWolf: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration ?
[04:15] <ogra> yes, sounds like that... 
[04:16] <HWolf> save for the fact that that handles translation, and bugs. - expand it to allow people to tell us why the interface isn't optimal.
[04:16] <seb128> ?
[04:17] <seb128> how is that different of a bug?
[04:17] <HWolf> Because the user doesn't see it as a bug. They encounter something weird, and next time, just work around it.
[04:18] <HWolf> Every OS has it's little weird things, but the user takes note, and adjusts his behavior.
[04:18] <tseng> so if they want to report it, they use the same bug tracker as everyone else
[04:18] <seb128> bug != crasher
[04:19] <tseng> and attach a screenshot
[04:19] <seb128> you can bug about and UI issue
[04:19] <seb128> s/and/an/
[04:20] <HWolf> I know, but it's an extra hurdle. and for the casual user, he's not interested in 'bug' - he's interested in the annoyance factor, that it doesn't do *exactly* as he likes it.
[04:20] <doko> elmo: please sync python-imaging, linda, java-gcj-compat from unstable
[04:20] <seb128> he doesn't know that's a "bug"
[04:20] <seb128> he describes an issue
[04:21] <doko> seb128: when starting the gnome session, then I get the message that the panel was started twice
[04:21] <seb128> doko: known, bugged on bugzilla.ubuntu and upstream
[04:21] <HWolf> Right, and while the backend can be identical, you'll have to start it off with "this annoys me" and not "file a bug"
[04:21] <HWolf> seb128 ^
[04:22] <seb128> that's just a title ...
[04:22] <seb128> you want to discuss for hours just for a title?
[04:22] <HWolf> No, I want to go off, and play a game, and go out tonight. :)
[04:22] <seb128> I agree that the bug sending stuff should use "send a bug" title if that's what you are arguing
[04:22] <seb128> s/should/should not/
[04:23] <HWolf> But it's not just a title, it's an approach. Make it easier, remove bumps, allow the user to tell you what annoys him rather than file a bug in the traditional sense.
[04:23] <seb128> grrrr
[04:23] <seb128> you get a window "describe your issue"
[04:23] <seb128> what's wrong with that?
[04:26] <HWolf> Nothing much, but it'd probably be more userfriendly to pop up a window with a radio button list, and start off with "this annoys me" - "this doesn't work" - "this doesn't work as expected" and ask for input/action accordingly.
[04:26] <HWolf> This is the last I'll say of it tho, just think about it.
[04:27] <Treenaks> HWolf: people will lie on that
[04:27] <Treenaks> HWolf: and things person A likes, person B will hate
[04:27] <seb128> Treenaks: no need to think about it, what you describe is an UI to send a "bug"
[04:27] <seb128> up
[04:27] <seb128> s/Treenaks/HWolf
[04:28] <HWolf> anyhow, night.
[04:28] <Hieronymus> Treenaks: how do you mean, they would lie about it?
[04:28] <doko> carlos: oo loc ping
[04:29] <HWolf> And, Treenaks, lying wouldn't matter, because it'd still serve to tell you about what fires people up, just by the amount of reports.
[04:29] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: People don't know what they like. They THINK they like one thing, but once they have it they'll say they like the old thing better
[04:30] <HWolf> seb128, true, to a certain extent, but I don't see someone filing a bug about the name of the system menu, or it's layout. And if they do, they're powerusers or devels, not john does.
[04:32] <Hieronymus> Treenaks: so we should stop them from filing bugs? Makes no sense
[04:32] <carlos> doko, pong
[04:32] <carlos> doko, sorry, I was really busy with some bugs
[04:33] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: no, we should not ask for a judgement of value
[04:34] <doko> carlos: thanks
[04:34] <Hieronymus> but we could ask what doesn't work as expected etc.
[04:34] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: everybody expects different things, that's the point
[04:34] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: I prefer spatial, you don't. I prefer few options, you prefer KDE
[04:34] <Hieronymus> I don't prefer kde :)
[04:35] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: just an example
[04:35] <Hieronymus> but I mean things like a button "close application" in app y, while the rest of ubuntu uses "close", that is not expected
[04:35] <Hieronymus> and it's a bug
[04:36] <Treenaks> random users dont' know that
[04:37] <Hieronymus> but if they *do* they should have something easy in the menu to report it
[04:37] <hunger> Outch... up to 5 years support for ubuntu 6.04. That is a *long* time to fix stuff!
[04:37] <Lathiat> bags not me
[04:38] <Kamion> incentive to make 6.04 really good ;-)
[04:39] <wasabi_> Oh geeze.
[04:40] <wasabi_> That is a long time.
[04:40] <Hieronymus> they'd better test it heavily then
[04:41] <Lathiat> i hear redhat have some contracts for 10+
[04:41] <Hieronymus> well, Breezy Badger is 'breezy', fresh, so 6.04 should be stable seahorse or something
[04:41] <Treenaks> Lathiat: I guess you could do that on a per-customer basis
[04:41] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: Sinkin' Seahorse?
[04:42] <Hieronymus> Hieronymus: :)
[04:42] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: talking to yourself again? :P
[04:42] <Treenaks> no, 6.04 should just be called "Woody Revisited"
[04:43] <Lathiat> no
[04:43] <Lathiat> woody didnt have an option to upgrade
[04:43] <Treenaks> Lathiat: no?
[04:43] <Lathiat> but i guess essentially
[04:43] <Hieronymus> 5 years is like longer than Debian
[04:44] <Lathiat> yeh but debain is still supporting woody till may 06
[04:44] <Lathiat> which brings it about on par
[04:44] <Hieronymus> 2011 :/
[04:45] <ogra> Hieronymus, whats wrong with 5 years of support 
[04:45] <ogra> ?
[04:45] <Hieronymus> nothing, it's just really long
[04:45] <Hieronymus> and probably very expensive
[04:46] <Treenaks> ogra: it's more than 1/3 of his current life ;)
[04:46] <lu|away> s/probably// :)
[04:46] <Treenaks> ogra: even XP hasn't existed for that long
[04:46] <ogra> but it will also gain a lot...
[04:46] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: large companies love long support
[04:46] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: as upgrading costs money
[04:46] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: and needs to be tested thoroughly
[04:47] <Hieronymus> Treenaks: I know
[04:47] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: and they can test more often with the intermediate released (that will go on), and then switch when the next "designated release" rolls around
[04:47] <Treenaks> so everyone wins :)
[04:47] <ogra> Hieronymus, you wont get at the enterprise level if you dont offer such support cycles, so its good .... we dont use our 6 months release cycles with it... its only gaining us something... :)
[04:48] <ogra> s/use/loose/
[04:48] <Hieronymus> ogra: I read the announcement
[04:49] <ogra> so whats wrong with it, let mark spend his money for it if he likes ;) 
[04:49] <Hieronymus> ogra: It's an investment
[04:49] <ogra> and in the end he will get contracts with big companys who pay the foundation :)
[04:49] <Hieronymus> he can cash in if/when ubuntu becomes the standard os
[04:50] <dieman> heh
[04:50] <dieman> i need to find out what other .edu's use ubuntu
[04:50] <Treenaks> dieman: or make them
[04:51] <dieman> heh
[04:51] <ogra> dieman, www.edubuntu.org ;)
[04:51] <dieman> well, we're more of a good whitepaper in the end :)
[04:51] <Hieronymus> ogra: why would they? It seems more logical that big companies get support from Canonical and pay them for it, and that Canonical pays the foundation to ensure companies 5 years of support which makes more businesses buy support from Canonical -> more money to the foundation etc etc.
[04:51] <dieman> I ment edu as in universities/colleges :)
[04:51] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: Canonical is not the only support organisation
[04:51] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: You could start your own
[04:51] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: if you wanted
[04:51] <Hieronymus> Treenaks: but the main support organisation
[04:51] <dieman> I am my own ubuntu support organisation. :)
[04:52] <Treenaks> Hieronymus: for now... they might not be in say, 10 years
[04:52] <dieman> along with a few student workers
[04:52] <Hieronymus> which helps other organisations (If I understand the website correctly)
[04:52] <ogra> Hieronymus, but still, the money will flow back...
[04:53] <dieman> ogra: edbuntu is cool for turnkey
[04:53] <ogra> ;)
[04:53] <dieman> ogra: but in the university environment usually its integration
[04:53] <dieman> making it painless for solaris/irix/etc users to use it
[04:53] <dieman> and integrating with nis/afs/kerberos/etc.
[04:53] <ogra> dieman, its only our first release, we'll get there ;)
[04:53] <dieman> its different goals :)
[04:54] <dieman> heh
[04:54] <ogra> its a far goal
[04:54] <dieman> automating 'site' configuration is hard.
[04:54] <jdub> dieman: tried cfengine?
[04:54] <dieman> (missed ldap in that list)
[04:54] <dieman> jdub: yea
[04:54] <ogra> the near goals are to start from a classroom.... conquer the school and in the end support the whole district... over 3 releases
[04:54] <dieman> i use it for running scripts and doing some file edits and copies.
[04:55] <dieman> its grouping engine rocks when used alongside a netgroup map
[04:56] <ogra> dieman, so our fourth or fifth release could target the university enterprise level then :)
[04:56] <dieman>         debian3xconsole = ( +@debian3 -gibson.cs.umn.edu )
[04:56] <dieman> like that sort of stuff rocks
[04:56] <dieman> well, im not at the 'enterprise' lever.
[04:56] <dieman> level
[04:56] <ogra> you just talked about it
[04:57] <dieman> but still, for curricular labs and the research boxes its all about making it work with existing infrastructure because its usually already there.
[04:57] <dieman> ahh.
[04:57] <dieman> when people say 'enterprise' here its talking about peoplesoft. :)
[04:57] <doko> fabbione: how far did the last OOo2 build get on sparc?
[04:57] <dieman> and the budget stuff
[04:57] <ogra> university environment is enterprise in my eyes
[04:57] <dieman> and payroll
[04:57] <dieman> and the central email server
[04:58] <hunger_> This damn 2.6.12 kernel is so damn crashy!
[04:58] <fabbione> doko: it was FTBFS but i didn't really dig into it.. want the logs?
[04:58] <ogra> when i say enterprise, i mean 100+ servers and 10000+ workstations....
[04:58] <doko> fabbione: yes, for -ubuntu2
[04:58] <ogra> thats what big unis have, dont they ? 
[04:58] <fabbione> doko: in a second..
[04:58] <doko> fabbione: no haste
[05:00] <fabbione> doko: it's people.. usual place
[05:03] <doko> fabbione: k, thanks
[05:03] <jbailey> ogra: I'd set enterprise starting at 25 servers and 100 desktops on the small side.
[05:03] <fabbione> doko: thanks to you
[05:05] <ogra> jbailey, yes, i sometimes tend to small exaggerations ;)
[05:06] <jbailey> ogra: Right.
[05:06] <jbailey> ogra: Although..  If you're willing to take up sales, you're welcome to take on that market. ;)
[05:06] <ogra> *gg*
[05:07] <ogra> sadly i dont look god with a tie ;)
[05:07] <Mez> ogra, what do you think of maybe packaging Enemy Territory ?
[05:07] <ogra> Mez, how free is that ?
[05:07] <Mez> free as in free beer
[05:08] <ogra> <-- not a gamer at all
[05:08] <Mez> I think
[05:08] <Hieronymus> Mez: free as in beer, yes
[05:08] <Hieronymus> source is available but not free
[05:09] <Mez> huh?
[05:09] <Mez> It is free ;)
[05:09] <Mez> ET is a full free multiplayer first person shooter game. The game was originally going to be a retail expansion pack for Return To Castle Wolfenstein but the project was cancelled and the good folks at Activision decided to give it to us for free!
[05:09] <Hieronymus> they mean beer
[05:10] <Mez> ??????
[05:10] <ogra> no costs...
[05:10] <ogra> but that doesnt rule the distributability
[05:10] <Hieronymus> a long, long, time ago, I used to play that game
[05:11] <Mez> they're godamn run files
[05:11] <Hieronymus> there's an EULA included
[05:12] <carlos> doko, mail sent
[05:12] <tseng> ogra: its not distributable
[05:12] <tseng> ogra: iirc
[05:12] <ogra> tseng, i thought so
[05:13] <tseng> not that i would mind a secret .deb installer on some random website outside the US
[05:14] <ogra> heh
[05:17] <doko> carlos: we still do have the 220 pot files. is this a problem?
[05:18] <carlos> doko, Rosetta will not be too user friendly with 220 pot files
[05:18] <carlos> doko, is it a problem to collapse them into one single file?
[05:21] <doko> carlos: I think, it doesn't make sense. it's getting too big. you maybe want to have different people be responsible for one app. I'll look how to split these at the first dir level
[05:22] <carlos> doko, we have a plan to help people to contribute with huge .pot files
[05:22] <carlos> doko, and we have already .pot files that are bigger than OOo2 one
[05:23] <carlos> doko, https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/ddtp-ubuntu/05.10/+translations
[05:23] <elmo> doko: linda violates UVF - is it a pre-UVF pending merge where debian took our changes?
[05:24] <carlos> doko, we are not talking about 4-5 .pot files but 220 .pot files, that's too much
[05:24] <doko> elmo: yes, I was too late. debian uploaded on June 23
[05:25] <doko> carlos: no, toplevel are about 15
[05:25] <carlos> doko, toplevel?
[05:26] <doko> carlos: did you _look_ at the tarball?
[05:26] <carlos> doko, yes, but not all subdirectories... let me check it again
[05:27] <doko> carlos: from that page I can only see, how many are missing, not how much are available. OOo2 currently has 65.000
[05:27] <doko> (including the help)
[05:27] <carlos> hmm
[05:27] <carlos> ok, then we are handling already 32000 (universe)
[05:27] <doko> at least you should split out helpcontent2
[05:28] <carlos> I don't know why I thought oo was smaller
[05:28] <carlos> doko, if that's possible, that's ok
[05:28] <carlos> doko, I mean, I don't mind if we have 2 or 4 .pot files
[05:28] <carlos> but 220 ....
[05:28] <carlos> it's too much
[05:29] <doko> ok, but for doing a reasonable split, we have to do some manual work
[05:30] <carlos> doko, so you propose to create one .pot file per toplevel directory?
[05:30] <doko> yep, if you think that these are not too many files
[05:30] <carlos> that's 36 .pot files
[05:31] <doko> too many?
[05:31] <carlos> it's a high number, but we could do some testing to import them and see how Rosetta looks with that amount of .pot files
[05:32] <carlos> doko, isn't it a problem to get the translations back from several .po files using the 36 .po layout?
[05:33] <doko> ok, let's see if we can reduce these as well. maybe it's a good idea to have a common dir, a helpcontent2 dir and for each of the apps (writer, calc, impress, base, ...) one
[05:33] <doko> carlos: it's not a problem for the 220
[05:33] <Ska> hi ppl
[05:34] <carlos> doko, I know, I mean with the 36 file layout we are talking about now
[05:34] <Ska> if someone is interested in vector graphics development , i've recently released my framework in c++ (take a look to www.amanith.org)
[05:35] <doko> carlos: I didn't try. but a patch to oo2po and po2oo should be doable
[05:35] <carlos> ok
[05:35] <carlos> doko, I will play a bit with OO.org2 this weekend 
[05:42] <wasabi_> Man I still never received my hoary cds
[05:42] <carlos> wasabi, did you ask Mako?
[05:45] <wasabi_> No. Didn't know I was supposed to
[05:47] <carlos> wasabi, well, he's on charge of cds distribution
[05:48] <carlos> and he's behind the contact email you have at the website
[05:54] <mdke> wasabi_, i haven't got em yet, those of us who had warty cds have to wait a bit!
[05:58] <carlos> mdke, there were an error in our order
[05:58] <carlos> mdke,but Mako told me that it's fixed now (I had the same problem)
[05:58] <mdke> :)
[06:01] <lamont> dpkg: error processing /home/buildd/build-breezy/chroot-breezy/var/cache/apt/archives/gettext_0.14.5-1ubuntu1_hppa.deb (--unpack):
[06:01] <lamont>  trying to overwrite `/usr/share/info/dir.gz', which is also in package gzip
[06:01] <lamont> what was the fix for that again, I wonder?
[06:05] <Kamion> fabbione: colin.watson@canonical.com--2005/kernel-wedge--ubuntu--0, testing would be good
[06:07] <bddebian> Hello
[06:08] <jsgotangco> hi
[06:08] <mdke> jsgotangco!
[06:31] <jsgotangco> hello
[06:44] <sivang> hi all
[06:50] <Mez> enjoy the breakage
[06:50] <sivang> Mez: what brakage are we talking about ? :-)
[06:51] <Mez> I avent tried it myself, but X breaks a lot :D
[06:51] <Mez> apparently
[06:51] <sivang> ouch
[06:52] <sivang> Mez: well, all sorts of stuff broke for me, but thinkg "killall gnome-*" cannot fix
[06:52] <sivang> s/thinkg/nothing/
[06:52] <Mez> lol
[06:52] <Mez> or a restart of X
[06:52] <sivang> Mez: yep
[06:53] <sivang> Mez: I'm a bit outdated with current stuff and poeple on Ubuntu, may I ask if you're a user/developer/moving from other distro?
[06:53] <sivang> Mez: (I now have a day job which consumes too much of my time :-)
[06:53] <Mez> sivang a bit of all :D
[06:53] <Mez> lol
[06:53] <Mez> I've just bcome a member... on my way to maintainer :D
[06:54] <Mez> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinMeredith
[06:55] <sivang> hey mdz , 'sup?
[06:56] <Mez> hey mr Ubuntu CTO :D
[06:56] <Mez> :P
[06:58] <sivang> Mez: strange, mdz usually has some sort of a cable provider hostname, unless he's out of the US
[06:58] <Kamion> .fi might be a clue ;-)
[06:58] <sivang> Mez: (one that is common around his region, adelphia or somethign)
[06:58] <sivang> Kamion: debconf ?
[06:59] <sivang> Kamion: Hello to you too , how are you ? ;-)
[06:59] <Mez> yeah, mdz said he had to catch a plane when I was speaking to him earlier :D
[06:59] <Mez> lol - Kamion - I finally got it to install
[06:59] <Simira> hehe
[06:59] <sivang> Mez: how early was it? (ooo we're getting OT )
[06:59] <Kamion> sivang: fine, thanks
[06:59] <Kamion> Mez: good-oh
[07:00] <Mez> had to set my nameservers itself to the upstream ones instead of the local proxy/caching ones
[07:00] <Mez> btu... it installe
[07:00] <Mez> then I wiped it.
[07:00] <Mez> I prefer ubuntu :D
[07:05] <wasabi_> So if breezy is supported for 5 years.
[07:05] <wasabi_> that means, we will have to support 10 releases at a time.
[07:05] <Kamion> not breezy
[07:05] <wasabi_> oh breezy+1
[07:05] <wasabi_> i see
[07:05] <Kamion> and not every release will be supported for 5 years, only selected ones
[07:05] <wasabi_> ahh
[07:06] <sivang> wasabi_: are you also part of the canonical crew now?  Seeing you talk as in "we will have to.." :-)
[07:06] <wasabi_> no.
[07:07] <sivang> wasabi_: eh, so that was more of, communal thinking :-)
[07:07] <Kamion> the announcement said that *Ubuntu* would be supporting releases for five years
[07:07] <wasabi_> yeah
[07:07] <Kamion> it's not expected that that will be just Canonical
[07:08] <Kamion> although obviously there'll be considerable involvement from Canonical employees / Foundation employees / whatever
[07:09] <sivang> Kamion: right, since things that need to get done sometimes must be attended to by employees, and not rely on cummunity to take care of it
[07:10] <jsgotangco> hey sivang
[07:11] <sivang> hey jsgotangco , what are you doing here in this fine friday after noon?
[07:11] <jsgotangco> oh its already saturday 1:11AM
[07:11] <jsgotangco> heh
[07:13] <jsgotangco> my laptop just died and they gave me a loaner
[07:13] <jsgotangco> took me a while to have things running thoujgh
[07:33] <{Seb}> i've just installed colony 2 on my ibook
[07:34] <{Seb}> are all the i386 packages available for PowerPC
[07:36] <mjg59> {Seb}: All of the ones that are tagged as building on ppc
[07:37] <{Seb}> great
[07:37] <{Seb}> i am correct in saying that AirPort exteme won't work>
[07:37] <mjg59> Yes
[07:37] <jsgotangco> yeah
[07:41] <jsgotangco> oh well sleep time good night everyone
[08:08] <{Seb}> btw, the new system tools in breezy are great
[08:08] <{Seb}> the GRUB configurator, services manager are great
[08:09] <{Seb}> will there be an Xorg configuration programme though?
[08:09] <Hieronymus> {Seb}: yeah, cool huh :-)
[08:09] <{Seb}> they are really good
[08:09] <{Seb}> now those idoits on Linux Format have no reason to slag off Ubuntu
[08:09] <Hieronymus> wow, I hadn't seen the services manager yet
[08:09] <Hieronymus> {Seb}: that magazine.. it's sort of stupid
[08:09] <Hieronymus> bought one once
[08:09] <{Seb}> you need the latest breezy updates
[08:10] <Hieronymus> {Seb}: I have it, just hadn't *noticed* it yet
[08:10] <{Seb}> my mum knowing i like linux got me a subscription ;-)
[08:10] <Hieronymus> haha
[08:10] <{Seb}> has the nice KISS theory of ubuntu in it
[08:11] <{Seb}> just hope they do an Xorg one
[08:11] <Hieronymus> WOW!
[08:11] <Hieronymus> Disk is cool :)
[08:11] <Hieronymus> *disks
[08:11] <Hieronymus> awesome
[08:12] <{Seb}> they have certainly been listening to feedback
[08:12] <Hieronymus> but it think My floppy drive (I don't have one) is /dev/hdd
[08:12] <{Seb}> and the new places pain in nautilus
[08:12] <Hieronymus> I haven't noticed anything in nautilus (but I use browser-mode)
[08:13] <{Seb}> oh come on!
[08:13] <{Seb}> i use browser mode
[08:13] <{Seb}> in the pain down the left hand side
[08:14] <{Seb}> the standard setting is now Places rather than Information
[08:14] <{Seb}> it works like Mac OS X's Finder
[08:15] <Hieronymus> {Seb}: oh, I always set it to info
[08:15] <{Seb}> try Places
[08:15] <netdur> people, I'm developing something to help ubuntu, but kinda I face problems... can I mail ubuntu-devel?
[08:15] <ogra> sure, why not ?
[08:16] <netdur> good :)
[08:16] <sivang> ogra: hi !
[08:16] <sivang> ogra: 'sup
[08:17] <sivang> ogra: you have any clue about bonnobu ui by any chance?
[08:17] <ogra> nope
[08:17] <ogra> sorry 
[08:18] <netdur> sivang, I heard that GNOME poeple moving away bonobo thing!!!
[08:18] <sivang> netdur: that's true. THe intent is to move to use UIManager solely,
[08:18] <sivang> netdur: but until this happens, we have to face apps that were written using other APIs..
[08:48] <mdke> mako, ping?
[09:02] <Simira> ogra: aren't you in HEL?
[09:02] <ogra> Simira, i'm no DD ;)
[09:02] <Mithrandir> ogra: so? :-)
[09:03] <ogra> next time... currently i'm happy the traveling is done for some weeks :)
[09:03] <ogra> i was every second weekend away since udu
[09:05] <Simira> ogra: neither am I.... ;p
[09:05] <Treenaks> Simira: you just tag along ;)
[09:05] <Treenaks> I'm not in HEL either
[09:05] <Simira> yay! I'm a groupie!
[09:06] <ogra> hehe
[09:06] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: why aren't you here? :-)
[09:06] <Treenaks> anyone there who needs signing?
[09:06] <Simira> Treenaks: the t-shirts have arrived, and will be out for sale after debconf
[09:06] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: Budget constraints (i.e. I bought an EOS 350D + a crapload of addons)
[09:06] <Treenaks> Simira: coolness
[09:11] <Treenaks> woohoo
[09:11] <Treenaks> working networkmanager \o
[09:12] <Treenaks> \o/ even
[09:21] <mako> mdke: yes
[09:24] <siretart> does anyone know whats wrong with tdb-dev? bogofilter is tried to be build like crazy, but the build log says, that tdb-dev was not installable
[09:26] <siretart> ah, I see: tdb-dev is in universe, but bogofilter is build-depending on it
[09:27] <SuperLag> tseng: how goes it?
[09:27] <tseng> SuperLag: good thanks
[09:27] <SuperLag> long time no talk
[09:30] <mdke> ah hi mako 
[09:31] <mdke> mako, i was thinking, do you think there is any chance of getting http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/ going again? we are desperate for a place to host previews and status reports of our work
[09:32] <siretart> filed #12536 about this
[09:33] <tseng> mdke: there are some virtual servers available
[09:33] <tseng> mdke: i imagine it wouldnt be much trouble to allocate one to docteam
[09:35] <mdke> tseng, we have been waiting for one, but i understand they are not available yet. This would be a temporary solution before we get a linode server
[09:36] <tseng> mdke: i can help you with "temporary"
[09:36] <mdke> one of the kubuntu devs provided some space for the kubuntu docs, but the ubuntu docs don't have any
[09:36] <tseng> mdke: just for team use?
[09:36] <mdke> tseng, yes purely for some html status and preview pages
[09:36] <mdke> tseng, that would be wonderful
[09:53] <mdke> mako, tseng has set me up :D
[10:03] <mako> mdke: killer
[10:33] <Speedy2> Hey all.  I'm seeing a strange problem -- I compiled myself a 2.6.12-2 kernel (from kernel.org), added support for my NIC and that works.  But for some reason, eth0 is no longer brought up on boot.  Any ideas which scripts I should check?
[10:38] <Speedy2> Hot plug has been compiled into the kernel
[10:42] <Speedy2> Any ideas?
[11:05] <sivang> Simira: who else is on debconf? :-)
[11:07] <Simira> sivang: everyone ;)
[11:07] <sivang> Simira: I envy you guys ...how is the weather?
[11:08] <Simira> sivang: warm and nice. Well, not everyone is here, yet. But I'm having a good time, so far.
[11:08] <sivang> Simira: you there with tollef?
[11:09] <Simira> sivang: yup. 
[11:12] <subjectdenied> i have a problem with login into gnome
[11:13] <subjectdenied> the gnome session doesn't start, but instead gives me a dialogbox showing "ihre" (german, should mean "your" in english) an only gives me a terminal
[11:14] <subjectdenied> from there i'm able to start gnome by typing "gnome-session" into the terminal
[11:14] <subjectdenied> i'm on breezy
[11:16] <ivoks> wrong channel
[11:23] <Speedy2> Realizing that many of the devels are busy or may not be here, can someone shed some light on the network bring-up process in Ubuntu?
[11:24] <Simira> Speedy2: what is the problem? btw, there's a lot of wiki-pages on it.
[11:24] <Speedy2> Simira: I compiled my own kernel (2.6.12-2), and added support for my NIC.  However on boot, the interface isn't brought up.  After logging in, if I type "ifup eth0", then all is normal
[11:24] <ivoks> ok, that's trivial to fix
[11:25] <ivoks> just add "auto eth0" to /etc/network/interfaces
[11:26] <Speedy2> ivoks:  Any idea why this occured?
[11:26] <Speedy2> ivoks:  And thank you for the suggestion, I'll add it
[11:26] <ivoks> Speedy2: you were playing with netwok-admin
[11:26] <ivoks> but -devel isn't a good place to discuss this
[11:27] <Speedy2> ivoks: I didn't make any changes to network-admin
[11:27] <Speedy2> ivoks: Ok, where should I discuss?
[11:27] <ivoks> #ubuntu
[11:27] <Speedy2> (I didn't knowingly make any changes to network-admin)
[11:27] <ivoks> this is development chan
[11:32] <tseng> mako: just got the hhk lite2
[11:32] <tseng> mako: its pretty awesome, need to adjust a bit
[11:32] <tseng> mako: to a few keys
[11:59] <mako> tseng: awesome dude :)
[12:00] <mako> tseng: i am traveling with mine here :)
[12:00] <tseng> mako: i knew it was small, but wow
[12:00] <tseng> do you have the one with the arrow keys?
[12:01] <tseng> or the pro
[12:01] <lu|away> do they make a cordless one yet?
[12:01] <tseng> lu|away: heh :P
[12:01] <tseng> im keeping my cordless mouse
[12:02] <lu|away> well, seriously, I've got a box that I'd like to shove in a closet with only the monitor cable coming out
[12:02] <lu|away> and a cordless hhk would be *perfect* for it
[12:02] <tseng> hm true
[12:02] <tseng> the xfce muine box?
[12:02] <chrissturm> hmm automounting stopped working today for me. anyone else seeing this?
[12:02] <lu|away> yeah
[12:02] <lu|away> though no longer xfce
[12:03] <lu|away> it's mostly pretty stock hoary now, with a simplified panel setup