[01:14] <mgalvin> hi all, i'm back
[01:45] <Mez> lo all :D
[01:47] <mgalvin> hi Mez
[01:49] <Mez> anyone here fancy working with the New User network to help write our New User Guide (prefereably with lots of links to current documenttaion or this being incorporated into the new documentation)
[01:52] <Mez> obviously not
[01:52] <Mez> mgalvin, ?
[01:58] <mgalvin> Mex, hey, sorry
[01:58] <mgalvin> wasn't looking at this screen
[01:58] <mgalvin> Mez, ping
[01:58] <Mez> pong
[01:58] <Mez> nor was i
[01:58] <mgalvin> what is the New User Guide, is there more info about it?
[02:00] <Mez> well, it's still being started up :D
[02:00] <Mez> but basically
[02:01] <Mez> it's going to be a spseudo-official (maybe fully official) replacement for ubuntuguide
[02:01] <Mez> and it's going to basically offer all the info a New Ubuntu User could want in one easy to find place
[02:01] <mgalvin> have you taken a look at the faqguide?
[02:02] <mgalvin> it has sort of the same goal, to replace ubuntuguide
[02:03] <Mez> yeah, I have, it's sort of the same, but more linked to New users (plus we'll mainly just be linking to other stuff anyways)
[02:03] <Mez> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUbuntuUsers
[02:04] <Mez> is the start of it,
[02:04] <Mez> but, we'll be using https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuide as a Table of contents (whats in there is not finished atm)
[02:06] <Mez> while your faqguide deals with more... technical stuff,
[02:06] <Mez> we;'re trying to point at people who jsut like, wnat to use MSN and browse the web :D
[02:06] <Mez> desktop apps :D
[02:07] <mgalvin> so its really a wiki page (as opposed to a full fledged shipped doc)
[02:08] <mgalvin> that will act as a central refernece for the noobs
[02:09] <Mez> basically yeah (though we will be making PDF versions etc etc and are more than willing to shove it over to doc team for inclusion in main docs)
[02:11] <mgalvin> cool, well i think froud or jeffsch could say if it would be included as a doc team project
[02:12] <mgalvin> i don't see why not, anything to help the real noobs is always useful
[02:13] <mgalvin> i am sure myself and other can contrib to it
[02:13] <Mez> matt, you a part of NUN yet ?
[02:13] <mgalvin> nope
[02:14] <Mez> you going to be ?
[02:14] <Mez> It'd be nice to have you on board :D
[02:14] <Mez> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/people/unp/
[02:17] <mgalvin> sure, i'll join up, are there any special requirements that need to be meet
[02:17] <Mez> significant contribution to helping new users
[02:17] <Mez> if you're working on the NUG - that count's
[02:18] <mgalvin> cool, i just added myself as a proposed member
[02:19] <Mez> approved :D
[02:19] <Mez> #ubuntu-nun 
[02:19] <mgalvin> i'll take a look at adding some content to the wiki
[02:19] <mgalvin> :)
[02:21] <Mez> go for it
[02:28] <rob^> the problem I see with it is that it covers a lot of whats already in the faq in step-by-step form
[02:29] <rob^> have you pulled the faq out of svn and had a look?
[02:30] <Mez> rob^, breifly :D but ... as I said - the FAQ is a broader base, and this is based at new users... we'll be linking to external sources etc etc, which will probably include the faw :D
[02:30] <Mez> faw *
[02:30] <Mez> faq *
[02:30] <rob^> we are already linking parts of the wiki with the faq
[02:31] <rob^> and the faq will be already included with Ubuntu..
[02:31] <Mez> yeah, this is just making it more new user specific
[02:32] <rob^> I dont see how its more "new user specific"
[02:34] <rob^> between the User guide and the FAQ pretty much everything (will) be covered
[02:36] <Mez> *Shrugs*
[02:38] <jeffsch> hmmm... perhaps the people working on User Guide and the NUN can collaborate
[02:38] <jeffsch> no need to work separately towards similar goals
[02:39] <Mez> thats what I was saying :D
[02:40] <Mez> lol - but the User Guide will be geared towards everyone - we wnat a sorta user guide cut down to the stuff that is FAQd... bit weord
[02:40] <rob^> I dont see why we need to different projects
[02:40] <rob^> two^
[02:42] <rob^> covering the same thing 
[02:42] <rob^> as it is we have several books profiled in the faq already
[02:45] <rob^> and also as it is the New User Guide covers several things already found in the wiki
[02:45] <rob^> I think the best way to help a new user is make a better table of contents for the wiki
[02:56] <rob^> keen, but misguided.
[03:02] <jeffsch> hmmm... i wonder why #ubuntu-nun when there is already #ubuntu
[03:02] <rob^> yes
[03:02] <rob^> good point also
[04:41] <rob^> what file contains the section entities for the faq guide?
[04:44] <rob^> anyone?
[04:52] <rob^> doh
[06:23] <mgalvin> rob^ i don't think there is an entity file for that, although i'm not looking at it right now so i could be wrong
[06:24] <mgalvin> rob^, grumpy groundhog is not the next release, that will be a rolling unstable branch for ongoing development
[06:24] <mgalvin> ^ iirc
[06:24] <rob^> ?
[06:25] <mgalvin> if i recall correctly
[06:25] <rob^> I take it you were in #ubuntu-devel 
[06:25] <mgalvin> yea, just read it
[06:25] <rob^> ok np
[06:25] <mgalvin> i'm usually just lurking there
[06:25] <rob^> same
[09:28] <rob^> did we get my last patch?
[09:30] <rob^> no?
[09:32] <rob^> everyone sleeping..
[09:33] <froud> African Greetings
[09:33] <rob^> hey
[09:34] <froud> hey rob^ 
[09:35] <rob^> did you get my last patch?
[09:35] <froud> not yet, just woke up :-)
[09:35] <rob^> heh
[09:36] <froud> shikes can vnc into my box
[09:36] <rob^> I noticed the mailing list doesnt return a copy of my emails I send to it
[09:36] <froud> brb, gone to check
[09:41] <rob^> good stuff
[09:45] <froud> applied
[09:47] <rob^> thanks
[09:47] <froud> any news on your commit account
[10:10] <jsgotangco> froud: around?
[10:11] <froud> yep
[10:11] <jsgotangco> i have a question you might be able to answer
[10:11] <jsgotangco> i was looking at the hoary installer
[10:11] <froud> i'll try
[10:11] <jsgotangco> and it had an install guide
[10:11] <jsgotangco> in html
[10:11] <jsgotangco> who wrote that?
[10:12] <froud> what does it look like I have not seen it
[10:12] <froud> is it the install guide in svn
[10:12] <jsgotangco> no it doesn't look like it
[10:12] <jsgotangco> ill run the cd again
[10:12] <froud> is it a simple one or long one
[10:13] <froud> there is a long one from debian
[10:13] <jsgotangco> a very long one
[10:13] <froud> upstream
[10:13] <froud> from debian
[10:13] <jsgotangco> but "ubuntufied"?
[10:14] <jsgotangco> its in doc/install/manual/en
[10:14] <jsgotangco> oh right its Debian
[10:15] <froud> yes some people in devel were maintaining it
[10:15] <jsgotangco> why not just adopt parts of it?
[10:15] <froud> but that is one hectic document for our desktop user audience
[10:16] <jsgotangco> its quite a complicated in some parts indeed
[10:16] <froud> no reason why not, the install guide files for a simple install guide are in svn
[10:16] <jsgotangco> hrmm
[10:17] <froud> jsgotangco: you have an itch, feel free to work on it
[10:17] <jsgotangco> yeah well i was actually reinstalling my laptop when i stumbled upon it
[10:18] <froud> just remember that we need two install guides ubuntu and kubuntu
[10:18] <froud> so use the profile methods
[10:18] <jsgotangco> yeah i thought about it
[10:18] <jsgotangco> im actually getting the trunk now
[10:18] <froud> There is a temptation to make install guides complex
[10:18] <jsgotangco> took almost 2 hours to rebuild
[10:19] <froud> 2 hours
[10:19] <froud> hmm mgalvin said he also had problems doing checkout from svn
[10:19] <froud> said it was slow
[10:20] <jsgotangco> mgalvin's output is superb
[10:20] <froud> jsgotangco: it would be nice if you can give some love to it :-)
[10:20] <froud> yes he is good
[10:21] <froud> both him and rob doing good work
[10:21] <jsgotangco> well i always had some love to share it just happened my tools won't play well heh
[10:21] <froud> I have asked mdz to hurry their commit accounts along
[10:21] <jsgotangco> why mdz?
[10:22] <froud> well its more than a week and elmo has been moving house
[10:22] <jsgotangco> ahh right
[10:22] <froud> so I am looking to expidite th eprocess
[10:23] <froud> mgalvin co authored the ppc version of ubuntuguide.org
[10:23] <froud> and rob^ was also involved with ubuntuguide.org
[10:24] <froud> I wish Chau would join in :-)
[10:28] <jsgotangco> our svn has become huge
[10:31] <rob^> hey again
[10:31] <froud> jsgotangco: yes
[10:31] <froud> rob^: hey
[10:32] <rob^> I should probably mention with my new email account comes a new pgp key
[10:33] <froud> no you should always keep the same one
[10:33] <froud> unless you feel that the old one was compromised
[10:33] <jsgotangco> yeah
[10:33] <rob^> froud, I actually wasn't involved with the ubuntuguide.org, just have a lot of prior experience with Debian
[10:33] <froud> rob^: ah
[10:34] <froud> rob^: did you send anyone your new keys
[10:34] <froud> do you have the old keys
[10:34] <rob^> not yet
[10:34] <rob^> yes
[10:34] <froud> if you have your old keys then just add them to your key bundle
[10:35] <froud> svn will still be able to use them
[10:35] <rob^> yeah its still in there
[10:35] <rob^> both are
[10:35] <jsgotangco> you can add more emails on a key though
[10:36] <rob^> never really looked to check if you could..
[10:36] <froud> it's important that you let people know if you need to make changes like that, otherwise you won't be able to commit and that could be very frustrating
[10:36] <rob^> yeah
[10:36] <froud> and giving elmo the wrong key and then asking him to replace it just adds to his workload
[10:39] <jsgotangco> ok im going back and play with my daughter
[10:39] <jsgotangco> heh
[10:39] <jsgotangco> its a nice sunday afternoon
[10:40] <rob^> just added my new email to the original key
[10:40] <rob^> pretty simple to do actually
[03:10] <jsgotangco> salut
[07:25] <mgalvin> hi all
[07:25] <froud> evening
[07:26] <mgalvin> hi froud
[08:31] <jeffsch> howdy folks
[08:37] <mgalvin> hi jeffsch
[08:38] <jeffsch> :)
[09:16] <mgalvin> i finally found out why my connection to the uk is so slow... i found a report saying that apparently there are some dns issues that make seeing sites in the uk from the us very slow or impossible
[09:16] <mgalvin> at least its not just me and someone found the problem
[09:17] <froud> he he
[10:06] <mgalvin> so since we know have a bunch of proper gnome menus I added the ent file to the faqguide... small issue...
[10:07] <froud> great yu want to patch it
[10:07] <mgalvin> a few different methods are being used during profiling...
[10:07] <froud> yes
[10:08] <froud> you clear on them?
[10:08] <mgalvin> sometime the actuall menuchoice is profiled, but sometime the surrounding para is profiled
[10:08] <froud> ok
[10:08] <mgalvin> i am clear, but it causes a small issue b/c
[10:08] <mgalvin> now if i use the gnome-menu-C ent file the menu entries in the files are not profiles
[10:09] <mgalvin> i would have to wrap all the menuchoices in paras and profile the paras
[10:09] <froud> if not profiled items should be included in output
[10:11] <mgalvin> if i don't then the gnome menu also shows up in the kde version of the doc, all the gnome menu file don't have and os="gnome"
[10:12] <froud> A yes c what you mean
[10:12] <froud> can you paste an example here
[10:12] <froud> use case of the problem
[10:12] <mgalvin> sure...
[10:13] <mgalvin> add this to faqguide.xml
[10:13] <mgalvin> <!ENTITY % gnome-menus-C SYSTEM "../../../gnome/libs/gnome-menus-C.ent">
[10:13] <mgalvin> %gnome-menus-C;
[10:13] <mgalvin> replace 
[10:13] <mgalvin> <menuchoice os="gnome">
[10:13] <mgalvin>                 <guimenu>Applications</guimenu>
[10:13] <mgalvin>                 <guimenuitem>System Tools</guimenuitem>
[10:13] <mgalvin>                 <guimenuitem>Terminal</guimenuitem>
[10:13] <mgalvin>             </menuchoice>
[10:13] <froud> k
[10:13] <mgalvin> with &terminal;
[10:14] <froud> kk
[10:14] <mgalvin> that make both the gnome term and konsole show up in kfaq
[10:14] <mgalvin> ...
[10:14] <mgalvin> if we use...
[10:15] <mgalvin> <para os="gnome">
[10:15] <mgalvin> 	         &terminal;
[10:15] <mgalvin>         </para>
[10:15] <mgalvin>         <para os="kde">
[10:15] <mgalvin>             <menuchoice os="kde">
[10:15] <mgalvin>                 <guimenu>Kmenu</guimenu>
[10:15] <mgalvin>                 <guisubmenu>System</guisubmenu>
[10:15] <mgalvin>                 <guimenuitem>Terminal Program (Konsole)</guimenuitem>
[10:15] <mgalvin>             </menuchoice>
[10:15] <mgalvin> 	     </para>
[10:15] <mgalvin> that works fine
[10:15] <mgalvin> eventually also use &konsole;
[10:15] <mgalvin> when we have those menus done
[10:15] <froud> yes option 2 is correct way
[10:16] <froud> but now you can have
[10:16] <mgalvin> using option 2 also then assures that the menu choice is nevre "inline" with the preceding para text
[10:17] <froud> no need for @os on menuchoice now
[10:17] <mgalvin> exaclty
[10:18] <froud> go for it, sounds good to me
[10:18] <mgalvin> which lets us use the menu files freely
[10:18] <mgalvin> :)
[10:18] <froud> yes
[10:19] <jeffsch> what if for some reason you want the menu choice to be "inline"?
[10:19] <froud> still can
[10:20] <jeffsch> i must be missing something :)
[10:20] <mgalvin> i think we could use <application>&terminal</application>
[10:20] <mgalvin> which is inline
[10:20] <mgalvin> ?
[10:21] <mgalvin> it gets bold though i think
[10:21] <froud> why do that
[10:21] <froud> why not just <para>.... &terminal; .....</para>
[10:22] <froud> why not just <para os="gnome">.... &terminal; .....</para>
[10:22] <mgalvin> um, sorry your right
[10:22] <mgalvin> that would work fine
[10:22] <froud> why not just <para os="kde">.... &konsole; .....</para>
[10:22] <froud> btw in some cases you can do 
[10:23] <froud> <para os="kde,gnome">.... </para>
[10:23] <froud> but of course you cannot then have menuchoices in them
[10:23] <froud> so
[10:23] <jeffsch> <menuchoice os="gnome">&terminal;</menuchoice> and <menuchoice os="kde">&konsole;</menuchoice> ?
[10:24] <froud> no then the external xml-instance is invalid
[10:24] <mgalvin> that would put a menuchoice inside another menuchoice
[10:25] <froud> yes or you would have to create an invalid xml instance
[10:25] <froud> external
[10:25] <jeffsch> leave the menuchoice out of &terminal; and &konsole;
[10:25] <froud> makes the xml invalid
[10:25] <froud> xml instance must have a root element
[10:26] <froud> technically in this context it will be well-formed
[10:26] <froud> but the external instance is not 
[10:26] <froud> not a good practice IMHO
[10:27] <froud> better to have <para os="gnome">.... &terminal; .....</para>
[10:27] <froud> where
[10:27] <froud> &terminal; is a valid and well-formed xml-instance
[10:27] <froud> it does not have to have @os
[10:28] <froud> another option
.... <phrase os="gome">&terminal;</phrase> .....</para>
[10:29] <froud> I think that is valid
[10:29] <froud> therefore
.... <phrase os="gome">&terminal;</phrase><phrase os="kde">&konsole;</phrase> .....</para>
[10:30] <froud> is true
[10:30] <froud> mgalvin: there are many options
[10:30] <froud> jeffsch: what do you think?
[10:31] <jeffsch> heh, it's almost more work than not using &terminal; :)
[10:31] <jeffsch> but <para>.... <phrase os="gome">&terminal;</phrase><phrase os="kde">&konsole;</phrase> .....</para> looks ok
[10:32] <froud> he he yes but in context of the big benefit is good
[10:32] <jeffsch> yeah
[10:32] <froud> mgalvin: does that help
[10:32] <froud> we have outlined two options
[10:32] <jeffsch> :) now we need an entity for <phrase os="gome">&terminal;</phrase> hehe
[10:33] <froud> ooh multiple abstraction
[10:33] <froud> kinky
[10:33] <jeffsch> evaentually we can have &faqguide; :) a very short document
[10:36] <mgalvin> froud, yes that helps, thnx guys
[10:44] <froud> mgalvin: np
[10:47] <mgalvin> i jusr emailed a small patch to the faq guide that uses the method we jusr discussed
[10:48] <jeffsch> ok. i'll apply it shortly
[10:49] <mgalvin> elmo... ELMO... hehe :)