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Simirahi JaneW 01:13
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JaneWHi Simira01:43
JaneWhow's the new home?01:43
SimiraJaneW : temporarily... luckily. I'm currently on Debconf in Helsinki, though.01:47
JaneWcool, how's it going?01:55
SimiraJaneW : exciting... some don't like ubuntu as much as others, but there's a lot of cool people.01:55
Simiraand really, really warm01:55
JaneWwarm here today too - 27 degs (and it's mid winter!)01:59
Simirayay... but you're supposed to be used to it. It's about 30 here, I think. Maybe a couple degrees colder today. And I'm in Northern europe... eww...02:00
Treenakshm, and here in The Netherlands it's only 2602:01
smurfixyou should move this discussion to #ubuntu-weather ;)02:02
Treenakssmurfix: it's not like there's much discussion going on anyway02:02
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JanCSimira : I got some feedback from debconf by Luk Claes & Danny Cautaert03:42
JanCmainly about mosquitos, bad food, saunas & estonian alcohol03:42
TreenaksJanC: Luk Claes.. family of yours? :)03:43
JanCnope, he has no "y"  :)03:43
TreenaksJanC: all those Belgian names look the same to me :P03:43
SimiraJanC : sounds just like it, yes03:43
JanCbut he's a co-member of LugWV.be  :)03:43
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\shevening ladies & gentlemen09:48
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\sh1 minute09:59
KamionI pinged Keybuk; neither mdz nor sabdfl seem to be on-line at the moment09:59
Kamionall are at Debconf, I think09:59
\shno problem 09:59
\shI only want to discuss wine packages10:00
dholbachgetting drunk, presumably10:00
\shthat's also ok...I'm doing the same..10:00
\shbut not now..after the meeting10:00
\shdholbach: but u r there...this is really good..10:01
zulisnt it only 20:0010:01
\sh20:00 utc10:01
dokohmm, I think they left for the hotel or a restaurant10:01
zul /topic says its at 22:0010:01
dholbach\sh: are any of my actions required?10:02
Mezarent we like..10:02
\shdholbach: I want to have a opinion10:02
Mez2 hours early ?10:02
MezTue Jul 12 20:02:20 UTC 200510:02
\shTuesday 12 July 2005 at 2000 UTC10:02
Mez Tue 12 July 22:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda 10:02
Kamionoh, great, the topic here disagrees with the wiki10:02
Kamionthe wiki says 2000 UTC10:03
Kamionthis business of maintaining information in two places is mad10:03
\shwe need exchange10:03
\shI think10:03
\shor notes10:03
\shok....22 UTC back here...don't get drunk guys *hicks*10:04
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dholbachhi pitti10:05
\shhey pitti...10:05
\shpitti: tell mark, beer is to expensive at .fi10:07
pitti\sh: the problem is, it isn't...10:07
pittitoo expensive10:07
\shwhen I was the last time...oh well10:07
\sh.se != .fi then10:07
\shor I have the wrong job ;)10:08
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sistpotyHi all10:27
siretarthi folks!10:28
sistpotydoko: are you online?10:28
sistpotydholbach said, I can bother you about java-package?10:29
ogradoko, so how is the tibook behaving in the saun ?10:29
dholbachsistpoty: he wants to have a new java-package synced from debian, because our's doesn't work10:29
dholbachoops, doko ^^10:30
dokowhich one?10:30
sistpoty"java-package" itself ;)10:30
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sistpotybug-report is here: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=313555, seems to be fixed in debian10:31
dokoI don't mind. universe isn't frozen, isn't it?10:32
dholbachoh, it's a universe package10:32
ogradoko, it is :(10:33
dholbachsistpoty: ask your favourite motu to sync it, if doko's happy :)10:33
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sistpotythat's why i asked in #motu at first ;)10:34
dholbachseb128: Sb! :)10:34
seb128dholbach: grumpf, my eth0 card just broke10:35
dholbachseb128: oh :((10:35
seb128dholbach: after some reboot I figured that's probably not a software issue and changed it ...10:35
siretartdholbach: I don't get the "ask your favourite motu to sync it" part, may a motu upload "plain" and "unmodified" debian packages (java-package in this case) or shall we still append the -1ubuntu1 anyway?10:36
pittisiretart: no, please don't. Just ask elmo to sync it10:36
dholbachsiretart: ah ok, yes, what pitti said10:36
ograsiretart, just asking elmo for a sync from debian10:36
pittisiretart: never upload a -ubuntuN package if you didn't actually do changes10:36
Mezpitti: just a XbuildY? 10:37
\sh-DbuildN is ok10:37
ograsiretart, but we're in UVF, so if the upstream version changed you need mdz/Kamion approval10:37
pittiogra: certainly not for universe10:37
\shwhat now?10:37
ograpitti, for universe too10:37
\shanybody knows something else10:37
pittiogra: hrm?10:38
pittithat's new to me...10:38
siretartpitti: ok. this is how I understood it so far.10:38
ograpitti, UVF is for the whole distro now10:38
pittiogra: D'oh10:38
dholbachogra: i don't recall hard UVF for universe in the last talk with kamion and you10:38
ograpitti, Kamion told me the other day10:38
dholbachogra: and surely they don't want to be pestered for every little change in universe10:38
ogradholbach, what do you think we talked about then ?10:39
seb128pitti: does elmo actually do syncs this week ? :)10:39
siretartwell, I don't think that every package should be subject to UVF. java-package e.g. in not that likley to have regression. it is really constantly improving and it is (usually) really worth having the latest version around10:39
dholbachogra: we talked about a freeze in universe, yes, but the timing was different, afaik10:39
pittiseb128: he's here, if you ask him, he probably will10:39
seb128pitti: I've asked 2-3 times yesterday on #ubuntu-devel he just ignored me :p10:39
seb128lemme try again10:40
pittiseb128: mailing might be actually better10:40
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seb128pitti: yeah, maybe10:40
ogradholbach, we talked about UVF and i dont remeber we talked about a different date wrt universe/main, but we can ask Kamion later :)10:40
dholbachogra: what was the "one week before release" part about?10:40
ograhuh ?10:40
ogradholbach, lets just wait for Kamion, i dont know what you mean with "one week before release" part...10:41
dholbachlet's talk about it in the meeting10:41
ograso put it on the agenda...10:43
dholbachyes master10:43
Simiraseb128 : elmo is on debconf10:45
seb128Simira: I know, thanks :)10:45
Mezogra: I cant get in touch with jdong - should I still put backports on the agenda?10:46
ograMez, what about the other backporters ?10:47
siretarthow many backporters are there at all? and who?10:48
Mezthere's 4 or 510:49
Mezme, jdong, slomo, and Mike Basinger10:49
Mezand one who's on hols10:49
Mezsiretart, did you get my email?10:49
siretartMez: yes, I did. mom10:49
siretartMez: did you upload your key to a keyserver?10:50
Mezer, not yet I dont think10:50
MezIt wasnt on key server until I made sure I had a hard copy of it :D10:50
MezI just shoved it up though10:53
Kamionsiretart: there's nothing wrong with exceptions for cases where it makes sense11:00
Kamionbut the exceptions should be explicit, not implicit!11:00
siretartKamion: I agree completly 11:00
pittiwell, explicit syncs do make sense for known-good packages, I agree11:01
Kamiondholbach: I haven't been able to talk to mdz much since UVF happened; when he gets back we'll clarify things11:01
Kamionit's pretty impossible to coordinate with people who are at debconf though11:01
ograheh, yes11:02
siretartpitti: perhaps we can agree that in general sync which fix "important" and higher bugs (in debian severity terms) are acceptable?11:02
ograthey drink hard stuff, skate, eat melons and hang around in saunas according to planet debian11:02
Kamionsiretart: that's always been reasonable cause for a freeze exception11:02
siretartgreat! :)11:03
Kamionbut still one must ask for approval, if blanket approval has not been given11:03
Mezcan someone please tell me why I'm getting "unauthorised" on the GB mirror?11:03
Kamionbecause it might make sense to backport a smaller fix instead, or the sync might adversely affect something else11:03
Kamionit's an extra review step to make sure we have better visibility across the distro when importing new code close to release11:04
Mezw00t for backports :D11:04
Mezwhen it gets instated11:04
siretartcan we define some sort of procedure for requesting syncs? I don't know if elmo doesn't get annoyed when we constantly ping him on irc with requests11:04
Kamionthat is the procedure11:04
Kamionalthough during freeze, better send mail11:04
Kamionso mail elmo, cc mdz and me11:05
Kamionat least that's approximately what we've done in previous release cycles (with s/Kamion/jdub/)11:05
siretartall right, will do then11:05
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siretartok, will be back in one hour then, when meeting really begins11:06
siretartcu later11:06
Mezyou taking over from jdub then Colin?11:06
KamionMez: not really11:07
KamionMez: jdub's moving more towards business development though, and isn't taking so much of an active part in the distro team11:07
ograMez, he looks better with tie then we all do ;)11:08
Kamionmdz always did the bulk of that stuff, and in the last couple of freezes he's taken to saying "ask me or Colin" rather than "ask me or Jeff"11:09
Kamionso I go with the flow :)11:09
BurgundaviaKamion, are you a foundation or canonical employee?11:09
Kamionother Jeff11:09
jbailey'k =)11:09
Mezogra, with Kamion it'd have to be a clip on ;)11:09
KamionBurgundavia: as far as I'm aware nobody has shifted over to being employed by the Foundation yet11:10
BurgundaviaKamion, ok11:10
BurgundaviaKamion, that was my next question11:10
Burgundaviathe idea with the foundation is that other companies can also fund it?11:10
KamionBurgundavia: it hasn't yet been decided which members of the distro team will be employed by the Foundation and which by Canonical; I'm given to understand that there will be some of each11:10
Kamionthat's one thing I might speculate, but I don't know if that's the explicit intent11:12
KamionI think clear separation from Canonical's for-profit goals is more important, TBH11:12
Kamionbut you can get all that from the press release :-)11:13
BurgundaviaI have seen some slagging ubuntu, asking what happens when sabdfl gets bored and moves on to his next project11:13
Kamionhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/cjwatson/31101.html has my thoughts on it11:13
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Kamioncontinuity is obviously important, yes, trolling aside11:14
BurgundaviaKamion, what is fieldwave?11:14
Kamiona sufficient number of people have come to rely on Ubuntu that it would be poor form to drop it on the floor11:14
KamionFieldwave is the company that actually employs UK Canonical staff11:15
Burgundaviaso the non-UK people work directly for canonical, but there are enough crazy limeys to make their own company?11:15
Kamionit exists for some strange corporate organisational purposes I don't fully understand; for most practical intents and purposes Fieldwave can be considered as Canonical11:15
Burgundaviaprobably tax purposes11:15
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Mezaka a beer 11:18
Kamionformally, I believe Fieldwave's contracted by Canonical to do some work on its behalf11:18
Kamionbut as I say it doesn't make much practical difference and most of the UK employees will casually refer to themselves as Canonical staff11:19
MezKamion, so canonical = US company, even though Mark lives in the UK?11:19
KamionMez: no, Canonical is incorporated in the Isle of Man11:19
Mezah lol11:20
MezMarks' dodging tax again eh?11:20
jbaileyMez: What would you assume US? =)11:20
BurgundaviaI think dodging tax goes with the lifestyle, the jet, etc.11:20
Mezjbailey, someone above mentioned US :P11:21
MezBurgundavia, and the trips to space :P11:21
dokohmm, pitti did leave?11:22
Kamionlet's call it taking advantage of favourable tax laws rather than throwing around suggestions of tax evasion in a publicly-logged channel, shall we? :-)11:22
ogradoko, yes11:23
Mezapologies Kamion, my references to tax evasion were jovial 11:23
Kamionsure, understood, just thought it was kind of my duty to refute :)11:24
MezI know Kamion, but seeing as this is publically loggable and the meaning of my comment may have been in doubt, I thought I'd clarify11:25
Mezso Kamion, are we still going to get a graphical isntaller for breezy?11:26
KamionUbuntuExpress is in progress, but mostly by Matt - I'm just doing the odd bit of support work for it11:27
dholbachKamion: are you giving an interview and i didn't notice? :p11:27
ograMez, UbuntuExpress !11:27
jbaileyMez: You know, I've heard that on the third time you poke him, he begins to demonstrate some of the latest karate techniques that he's learned...11:27
Kamiononly as a special present for elmo11:27
Kamiondholbach: it's beginning to feel that way, I admit ;)11:27
Mezlol - dont... I've got images of Kamion in a karate suit now!11:27
\shmez: really?11:27
\shKamion: shotokan?11:28
Mezlol :D and Kamion - you said you were personally working on the Graphical installer :D (from a liveCD)11:28
Kamion\sh: yes11:28
jbaileyMez: Somewhere on lamont's camera are pictures of the two of them in various holds.11:28
KamionMez: I think I said "we"11:28
\shKamion: you're welcome to our club in troisdorf..shotokan is the only way11:28
Kamionif I didn't, it was unintentional11:28
Mezyou said "I" :P11:28
Mezhehe :DP11:28
KamionMez: oh, I said I was working on the cdebconf gtk frontend; that's a slightly different thing11:28
\shKamion: hope to see u at the wkc in brasil?11:28
Mezno, you said you were working on the LiveCD style install :D11:29
Mezinstall from a desktop icon on the LiveCD11:29
dholbachMez: udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuExpress should know :)11:29
ograMez, UbuntuExpress .... Kamion built(ds) the base for it 11:29
Kamion\sh: I'm not that good yet; only 8th kyu11:29
Mezyou may not have meant "I" but you said it (I think)11:29
dholbachMez: that's what he said :)11:30
Kamionsadly, the recording didn't work so there is no way to resolve that11:30
\shKamion: I'm only a parent of a master ;) so 8th kyu is yellow? orange? 11:30
MezKamion - someone had a video Camera in there11:30
Kamion\sh: yellow11:30
dholbachMez: <Kamion> if I didn't, it was unintentional      :)11:30
Mezdholbach, I saw ;) 11:30
\shKamion: really? so my son is, he is lilac, blue something11:31
Kamioncertainly my script says "we"11:31
Burgundaviaqueue the whinging --> http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1119811:31
dholbach\sh: 5th?11:31
Kamionblue would be 6th kyu in our club11:32
\shdholbach: something like this..he is youth NRW champion 200411:32
\shdholbach: with green belt....now he's violett/blue international11:32
Kamionwhite, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple, purple+white, brown, brown+white, brown+red, black11:32
\shKamion: here in .de it's white, yellow, orange, green, violett, brown, black ... black+dan11:33
dholbachhmmm, 12 years ago, it was a bit different11:33
\shviolett, is 2 years11:33
ograseems much more logical to sort the colors by lightness11:33
\shbrown is 2 years, too + you have to become 1811:34
\shyears old11:34
Kamionsimilar, brown is about 2 years, black about 4 minimum11:34
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\shogra: it's much more difficult...the belts doesn't say anything at all...if you see a 70 year old guy11:34
=== jordi_ is now known as mdz
mdzgood evening11:35
ograhey mdz !11:35
Kamionevening matt11:35
mdzapologies for my lateness11:35
\shogra: and this 70 yearold guy is fighting with swords and knifes against 3 people11:35
Mezlateness mdz?11:35
mdzone moment while I abude jordi's machin e11:35
\shmatt: u r welcome :) hope the beer was good11:35
ogramdz, 22:00 UTC11:35
ajmitchhi mdz 11:35
ograsays the topic11:35
Mezogra: it was 20:00 in the wiki ;)11:35
Kamionmdz: apparently it depends whether you believe the topic or the wiki11:35
mdzheh the time on my mobile is all sorts of confused11:36
\shMez: forget the wiki ;-)11:36
mdzis scott ritchie present?11:36
ajmitchI hope it's 22:00, otherwise I'm really late :)11:36
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mdz\sh: have you been in touch with him?11:36
dholbachmdz: YokoZar was his ircnick, irc11:37
Mez\sh: is that wise ?11:37
\shmdz: I wrote a mail...he didn't answer11:37
dholbachi'm for a dog walk, brb11:37
Kamionwe have certainly had the wine discussion before, either just before or shortly after warty11:37
Kamionperhaps somebody could find the discussion in the #ubuntu-meeting archives11:37
Mezmdz: /query11:38
\shmdz: but I would like to have his package..actually I used a plain debian/* dir for the latest snapshot and it compiled with gcc-411:38
\shKamion: I read it11:38
ograKamion, sabdfls word was quite clear about that, he wants winehq packages11:38
Kamionah, more like March11:38
\shuna momenta....girl is calling11:39
ograKamion, there was a mail to ubuntu-devel11:39
Kamionogra: I'm not attempting to overrule sabdfl, never fear! I was just making sure the previous discussion had been taken into account11:39
mdzhey, mdz is running to the hotel to grab his own laptop, now that he-s actually early for the meeting11:39
ograKamion, it has 11:39
mdzrepeat your questions when he gets back!11:40
Mezlol, mdz, quickly answer my question!11:40
jbaileyBeware the ides of march?11:40
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\shi mean I like the idea to be whipped by jane...but11:41
\shnow I'm confused11:41
Mez\sh have you got the right channel?11:41
\shmez: sure11:41
ograjordi_, how's the leg dude ?11:41
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\shI need a decision about whine...11:41
sabdflhi all11:41
sabdflapologies for being late11:41
ograhey sabdfl 11:42
\shg'night mark11:42
ograsabdfl, 22:00 UTC 11:42
ograeverybody thinks he's late *g*11:42
\shu can drink one more ;)11:42
=== mdz [~mdz@pc-n253.wlan.inet.fi] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
\sh*kippchendreh* ,-)11:43
mdzjordi_: thanks11:43
Mezsabdfl, or 20:00 if you read the wiki11:44
Mez :d11:44
\shogra: daniel is not there again...11:44
jordi_ogra: the leg is getting better.11:44
jordi_Not thanks to elmo!11:44
jordi_laters guys, mdz: no problem11:44
ajmitchhi sabdfl11:44
jordi_mdz: YOU KNOW WHAT11:44
mdzjordi_: you may never know11:44
=== sistpoty2 is now known as sistpoty
mdzjordi_: what life is like with a hitler moustache11:44
jordi_mdz: mako just came and we're going to have a swim naked in the sea11:44
sabdflhi ajmitch11:45
sabdflman it's hot in finland11:45
jordi_mdz: I will do it for the next conference11:45
jordi_mdz: i will DO IT11:45
\shok..if anybody is having a drink and is online :) 11:45
\shsabdfl: send pics :)11:45
Mezmdz: /query :d11:45
jbaileyWe swam naked in the sea in Oslo, perhaps it can be an every other debconf tradition.11:46
Mezjbailey - dont send pics of that :D11:46
\shno.i don't want to have pics *shrug*11:46
sabdflnekkid people!11:47
\shsabdfl: say: nackige leute :)11:47
\shok....fun beside :)11:48
mdz\sh: photos cannot show how hot it is11:48
mdzwho submitted the "universe freeze dates" proposal?11:48
mdzs/proposal/agenda item/11:48
\shmdz: believe me, I CAN FEEL THE HEAT I'm living somewhere between 4th and 100th floor11:49
Kamion(wasn't me, but) - I've been repeatedly explaining to people how UVF benefits stability of universe too, and how it's an extra review step not "you can't do this", etc.11:49
=== siretart wants to do the point "transitions in universe" on the agenda. objections?
Kamionwe did spring it on MOTU folks rather late, though11:50
=== \sh agrees with kamion
Kamion"transitions in universe" is not currently on the agenda11:50
\shbut some stuff has to be updated :(11:50
=== siretart wants to put it (sorry)
Kamion\sh: so request exceptions11:50
\shKamion: will bug u...no problem :)11:51
ajmitchKamion: you mean, we heard about it when it happened? :)11:51
ograajmitch, yep11:51
\shKamion: better to say..it's good to have a first class decision..right now it's a mess11:51
Kamionajmitch: it was always on the release schedule; we just hadn't realised that everybody thought universe had some kind of blanket exception from UVF11:53
jbaileyKamion: I know I had been under the impression that everything to do with Universe (Freezes, post-release updates, etc) was up to the Master MOTUs.11:54
Kamionthe reason it worked that way for Hoary was that you guys were just getting started and UVF was too early with respect to that11:54
ajmitchKamion: right, we thought the same would happen for breezy11:54
mdzapparently it was ReinhardTartler211:54
ograi assumed it, since we excluded universe from hoarys UVF11:54
siretartmdz: that's me11:54
=== Kamion is being nagged to go to bed - night all
ogranight Kamion 11:55
ajmitchnight Kamion 11:55
siretartgn8 Kamion!11:56
\shKamion: ok...now it's fact: universe is UVF and only upstream upgrades (updates I will name only as revision syncs from debian e.g.) have to be approved by 3 ppls of main?11:56
siretart3 ppl of main seems a bit overengeneered to me, honestly..11:57
mdzI'm more than willing to be flexible about UVF with regard to universe11:57
dholbachmdz: i put freeze dates on the agenda, since i wasnt sure about it (and most of the motus as well)11:57
Kamion\sh: er, no ...11:57
\shand kamion: sleep well :)11:57
mdzso long as we meet release milestones11:57
Kamion\sh: approval is currently one of mdz and me; we could extend that for universe11:57
mdzbut there should be a specific rationale if you want to deviate from the established procedures11:57
\shKamion: ok..u + mdz..and now off to sleep :)11:57
dholbachNEW packages will need to be treated differently11:58
mdzdholbach: please remember to place your name next to the item11:58
mdzas the comments in the wiki say11:58
\shdholbach: NEW p. are treated differently....11:58
dholbachmdz: i will, next time11:59
dholbachok then this item is all set11:59
\shdholbach: that's why I don'tlike right now new packages in universe, cause we have too many other things to work on :(11:59
mdzok, moving on then12:00
mdzis Scott Ritchie here yet?12:00
ajmitch\sh: you just need to recruit more MOTUs :)12:00
\shajmitch: we're officially 2012:00
ogramdz, i doubt he will appear12:00
dholbach\sh: fixing stuff is excluded from UpstreamVersionFreeze :)12:00
\shmore then that12:00
mdzI think he needs to be present for this discussion12:00
ograabout 3012:00
\shogra: thx...12:00
mdz\sh: if you are in touch with him, please have him contact me directly12:00
\shbut u always see only a few 12:00
mdz\sh: since we seem to have trouble syncing up for meetings12:01
ogramdz, he didnt show up since some months in the community12:01
mdzand this isn't necessarily a tech board issue anyway12:01
\shmdz: I don't be in touch with him..I tried...and that's why I put it on the agenda12:01
mdz\sh: so what is the specific issue?12:01
ograchangig from debian to winehq packages12:01
\shmdz: wine isn't  compiling doesn't work at all...so I want this stuff fixed for universe12:02
\shand I like to have this stuff in...even if I'm playing maintainer12:02
mdzif the question is whether to use Debian's packages or Scott's packages, and the Debian packages don't build while Scott's do, that seems like a no-brainer12:02
\shthe other alternative is , kicking it out12:02
mdzit is important to us that we have solid wine packages12:02
mdzand if in your assessment, his packages are of higher quality, we should clearly go in that direction12:03
\shok..so I need an ++ from u and kamion for an upload12:03
mdzideally we should do so in collaboration with him12:03
ogramdz, the idea was to get scott here today to talk to him about it12:03
\shmdz: i will bug him12:03
ogramdz, thats why we put it on the agenda12:03
mdz\sh: go ahead and upload12:03
\shbug actually w8ing for him is no use for us right now...12:03
mdzand send him notification about what we are doing12:03
\shdid already12:04
\shogra has a copy12:04
mdzyou can tell him that a decision has been taken and that we want to work with him on the packages12:04

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