rwabelwill do it for the changes I've made too12:52
rwabelI mean this from today...well yesterday for me12:52
mdkerwabel, nonono12:56
mdkerwabel, you dont' need to make changes on the page, just when you edit and save a page, fill in the little box that says "comment"12:56
mdke"Optional comment about this change"12:56
rwabelmdke: have u seen, all the stuff under documents is gone :-) only the UserDocumentation! wow02:29
rwabelah it was you02:30
rwabelyeah, I like the updates you have done very much!!02:32
rwabelmdke: we should make some subsections for software. I'll think about some and make the changes02:32
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rwabelmdke: made the changes. btw doesn't UserDocumentation need a belonging?02:56
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robitaillejsgotangco:  do you know how to stop the wiki from automatically trying to create link from a word on a page?05:37
jsgotangcousing CamelCase?05:43
jsgotangcoi don't know how it does that in Moin05:43
robitaillethe SSHHowTo page uses "DestinationDirectory" in a couple of example, and the wiki really tries to link this to an non-existent page05:45
jsgotangcowell CamelCase would really do that although Im not sure how to override it aside from changing the text itself05:46
jsgotangco(maybe there is no override either)05:46
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jsgotangcojeffsch: hi05:47
robitaillei'll be right back... ( crying baby...)05:47
jeffschjsgotangco: what are the ARs from the previous meeting?05:53
jeffschmaybe we can add a list of them to the agenda page05:53
jeffschso people know in advance, and maybe be better prepared05:54
jsgotangcohmmm right i will have to review the chat logs though05:54
jsgotangcothere were people who said "I will do this"05:54
jeffschsurely not me! :) hehe05:56
jeffschrobitaille: Camel''''''Case. 6 apostrophes will prevent a link06:02
jeffschthere's also a short form: !CamelCase will do the same thing, except06:09
jeffschthat feature is off by default and needs to be activated06:09
jsgotangcostrange though, thats way better than 6 apostrophes06:11
jeffschyeah. maybe there are other issues involved. i don't know.06:12
jsgotangcowell i'll brb for lunch06:13
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robitaillejeffsch: 6 apostrophes to override CamelCase? can't say it's really user friendly :)07:42
robitailleSSHHowto contains at least 5 !  So obviously the override was in use before the wiki transition.07:43
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Burgundaviasalut all07:48
froudAfrican Greetings07:49
robitailleHi Burgundavia  Hi froud 07:50
robitailleso Burgundavia , did you go to the meeting tonight?07:50
Burgundaviajust got back in07:50
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jsgotangcogyahhh sorry09:16
mptmdke/jsgotangco: What license are the ubuntu docs under?09:31
mptAnd what license is the wiki under?09:31
froud-workdual license09:31
froud-workGFDL and CC-BY-SA 2.009:31
mptoh, excellent09:32
mptso if someone prints out copies of a page and distributes them, they don't need to include a copy of the GFDL with each one09:33
mptThe Gnome User Guide is GFDL solely, though, right?09:37
jsgotangcothe wiki also goes by dual license?09:39
mptI see nothing in the edit form which says what license your edits will be under09:41
mptwhich is probably a bad thing09:41
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rob^hey, does anyone know how to recover lost wiki passwords?10:48
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Njalguys, why when i chose not to recieve email's from the list for the next few weeks am i still getting them?11:33
mdkehi all11:48
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mgalvinhi all03:25
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mgalvinhi jsgotangco04:17
froudhi jsgotangco 04:17
jsgotangcohey what's happenin04:18
jsgotangcohmmm the lists seems dead again04:18
mgalvini'll have to change that ;) i should have some free time today04:19
mdkehey guys04:33
mdkehi jsgotangco :)04:34
froudjsgotangco: on the codecs etc issues, lets ask people at canonical for an offical statement of the position04:34
mgalvinhi mdke04:34
jsgotangcofroud: sure jane can definitely have a say on that04:34
froudwe seem to be goin in square circles on it04:34
jsgotangcoi can email her later04:35
froudOK can you, great. CC the list too04:35
jsgotangcosure i sent her an email earlier on a totally different issue though04:35
froudhopefully it will bring finality04:35
jsgotangcoalthough i was thinking something04:36
jsgotangcowe can still write stuff on codecs, etc.04:36
jsgotangcobut it would be a separate package and be in universe/multiverse instead04:37
froudnice idea, but will it work for the user04:37
mdkebit complicated IMHO04:37
froudlots of hassle just to get information about that04:37
froudwhen I can just go to ubuntuguide.org04:38
mdkeplus most of our guides would have to be split into main/multiverse04:38
mdkebecause many of them will have stuff about codecs/dvd's etc04:38
mdkei would prefer to ship everything together04:39
jsgotangcoisn't that only the faq guide?04:39
mdkewell the user guide has things about mp3s and dvds too04:39
froudyeah problem is just in faq for now04:39
mdkei assume the kde user guide does too04:39
mdkeso the kde user guide doesn't tell people how to listen to mp3s?04:39
mdkeor play dvds?04:39
froudI am restricting to main and restricted04:40
mdkethe two most common tasks on a computer?04:40
froudwhat gets installed04:40
mdkefor many users...04:40
jsgotangcomdke: the app itself points to where you can get the codec, like Kaffeine04:40
froudand hint to expansion04:40
jsgotangcoit explicitly indicates where to get them as well04:40
frouduser goes from there04:40
froudIf Kaffeine user manual points there, that is all I need reference04:41
jsgotangcoi prefer going to main and restricted route as well for general documentation04:41
mdkethat is pretty restrictive04:41
mdkeespecially for the faqguid04:41
jsgotangcoits not supported in the first place04:41
froudmdke: where is the cut-of line then ?04:41
mdkeuniverse and multiverse are supported04:41
mdkealso backports will be supported for breezy04:42
jsgotangcoby whom?04:42
jsgotangcothere's a reason whey there's an ubuntu logo on packages in synaptic04:42
mdkeby official Ubuntu teams04:42
froudmdke: adding them leads to problems04:43
mdkeMOTU, backports04:43
froudand makes definition of the cuttoff hard04:43
froudsafe to stick with main and restricted04:43
mdkei disagree wholeheartedly ;)04:43
jsgotangcomain and restricted are guaranteed04:43
jsgotangcouniverse, multiverse, backports can be a hit or miss04:43
mdkein what way hit or miss?04:44
jsgotangcoare you sure all stuff in universe are properly maintained?04:44
mdkethey are community maintained, but mark and everyone else at ubuntu regards them as "supported"04:44
jsgotangcowe're talking about 19,000 packages04:44
froudmdke: there must be a cut-off point04:45
mdkei suggest the cut off point be those things which are not supported by Ubuntu04:45
mdkethus including main, restricted, universe, multiverse, backports04:45
froudmdke: support is not given as abosolute on those04:45
mdkeok this is why we need to get higher direction on what to do04:45
mdkewe can ask the Community Council and Jane04:45
froudOh no not more of that04:46
froudI just suggested we ask to get confirmation on whether or not they will agree to us explaining how to install stuff that is dubious04:46
froudnot to have a halabaloo04:46
jsgotangcoin a business sense, it can be dodgy04:47
froudwhat is our aim04:47
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froudwhat do we want to do?04:47
mdkefroud, yours is a knee jerk reaction against the Community Council, but the reality is that they are the people to give guidance on this04:47
froudwe want the user to get started on the distro and know where to go further04:47
jsgotangcofroud: +104:48
froudmdke: no dude, sorry yu think that04:48
mdkeif you ignore universe and multiverse it is a FACT that people will not use your docs and will continue to go to ubuntuguide.org04:48
froudI would suggest clear cutoffs04:48
jsgotangcowell in a distro sense, look at RHEL and Fedora04:49
froudopen universe and multiverse an dyou open a can of worms and more work that you can finish for the release04:49
mdkefroud, you don't need to cover everything, you just need to ensure that users that want to play mp3s and dvds know how they can do it04:49
mdkethere are certain things that users will want to do very commonly04:50
froudsorry I am normally a go, go, do everyting guy, but on this I err on the side of less risk04:50
mdkei don't think this is a risk or an excessive burden04:50
froudpoint users where they need to go04:50
mdkebut I do think that guidance from above is important04:50
mdkeas you have both said already04:50
mdkefrom my point of view, the question is whether you want users to find your docs helpful, or not04:51
froudif they need to install then the manual should explain the generic04:51
froudmdke: it is useful04:51
mdkea user guide which doesn't help users to watch dvd's is not entirely useful04:52
mdkeit is useful in other ways, but not in an important common task04:52
froudA user guide that instructs you to configure apt04:52
froudupdate sources04:52
froudand explains the components04:53
froudthen says look in there if you need it, this is how you install04:53
froudthe this is how you install is a generic thing04:53
=== jsgotangco checks his windows box on dvds, etc.
froudyou dont actually say to people install this or that04:54
mdkefroud, ok you _would_ envisage telling users about universe/multiverse?04:54
froudI do when I configure apt04:54
mdkeright so simply telling them about the package "gstreamer0.8-mad" for mp3s is hardly a bit step forward04:54
jsgotangcoUpdated, Windows XP compatible DVD decoders are available through the  following DVD solution providers:04:54
mdkejsgotangco, the problem you face with bringing out a "windows" argument is that all PCs _SHIP_ with windows and have a working dvd player installed04:55
jsgotangcothat's true in your place04:55
jsgotangconot in ours or in other places as well04:56
mdkeok but in general04:56
froudhere we insall dvd on windows04:56
jsgotangcothere's no difference, the point is that even they pointed04:56
mdkeall I am asking is to point04:56
froudno they did not04:56
mdkeyou and froud are saying that we shouldn't point at the right packages04:56
froudthey gave me a dvd player with sony software04:56
jsgotangcoyou're a lawyer you know what that entails04:57
mdkejsgotangco, i know that universe and multiverse are legal04:57
mdkeotherwise Ubuntu wouldn't provide them04:57
jsgotangcolibdvd is in multiverse?04:58
mdkelibdvdcss is installed by running a script included with the package dvdread i think04:58
mdkei don't necessarily think we should be supporting that04:58
froudIn Universe you can find almost every piece of known open source software, and software available under a variety of less open licences, all built automatically from a variety of public sources. All of this software is compiled against the libraries and using the tools that form part of Main, so it should install and work well with the software in main, but it comes with no guarantee of security fixes and support. The Unive04:58
jsgotangcoi agree on that04:58
froud"under a variety of less open licences"04:59
froud"but it comes with no guarantee of security fixes and support"04:59
mdkemost of universe is gpl204:59
mdkeits multiverse that is not open source05:00
jsgotangco"security fixes and support"05:00
froudI dont even consider instructing a user to install it. I tell them its available05:00
mdkelisten we all know what universe is05:00
froudI say use it if you want05:00
mdkethe fact is that it is considered as supported. There have been plenty of threads on ubuntu-devel on this subject05:00
mdkewe all know there are no guaranteed security updates05:01
mdkeand i agree, it is important to tell the users this05:01
froudI say I showed you how to isntall, now you can do what you want05:01
mdkebut users need to know which package does what in some cases (gstreamer0.8-plugins are an obvious example)05:02
froudgive users a hint, but don't directly instruct them to install a non gpl package05:02
mdkeok sure05:03
mdkemy view is to inform them as much as possible so they can take their own informed decisions05:03
froudif you tell them to install something that violatates a software patent, then people can be liable05:03
froudmdke: agreed05:03
froudnot saying dont tell them they must do it05:03
jsgotangcohmm i don't see anything in fedora about stuff like this either05:04
froudjust explain nicely and direct them for more info05:04
froudnot allowed, period05:04
froudjsgotangco: not allowed, period05:05
froudnot even a question05:05
froudif users want it the ask in the community05:05
mdkesaying "fedora don't do it" is not a convincing argument for me05:05
mdkewe have to make up our own minds about what sort of documentation we provide05:05
froudmdke: there are reasons05:05
jsgotangcono wonder Turbo Linux shipped a commercial player (and jacked up the price)05:05
mdkefroud, i'm sure there are05:05
froudI am not saying we need to be as radical, I am saying define the limits of the gray area05:06
froudwork in this05:06
frouddon't step in the black05:06
jsgotangcomake a workaround while still retaining the grey area05:06
froudbalancing act05:06
=== mdke blinks
mdkejeez you guys use a lot of buzz words05:07
froudso long as it can never be said that we told anyone to install patented technology illegally05:07
jsgotangcoits how lawyers do it right *wink*05:07
mdkejsgotangco, i'm not that sort of lawyer, but yeah05:07
jsgotangcomdke: you're an honorable one then :)05:07
mdkefroud, i don't think anyone will disagree with that05:07
mdkenothing in universe or multiverse has the problem05:08
froudmust go for a minute05:08
mdkealso, nothing in backports should have that problem either05:08
mdke(when backports becomes official)05:08
jsgotangcobackports official?05:08
mdkejsgotangco, where have you been for the last month?05:09
jsgotangcowhen they reside in ubuntu servers you mean05:09
mdkethe team will be official (see next weeks CC agenda) and yes, they will be on ubuntu servers and have proper rules05:09
jsgotangcoeven so, they're still not in Main :)05:10
mdkeneither is the MOTU work05:10
jsgotangcowe're going in circles heh05:10
mdkesquare ones, as froud would say :[05:11
=== mdke coughs
jsgotangcooohh check this out05:11
jsgotangcoalthough fedora docteam has a redhat employee heading them05:11
mdkeyou know what05:12
mdkechanging the subject for a moment05:12
mdkethose two guys who said they'd take charge of the Ubuntu userguide have not yet done anything05:12
jsgotangcoSean Quinn and Jon Atkinson05:13
jsgotangcoNO WAY05:13
mdkei was thinking maybe I would take it on05:13
mdkei've done quite a lot of work on it over the last couple of days05:13
jsgotangcosure i'll just finish my styleguide contrib and help you out on that as well as breezy-fy the quickguide soon05:14
jsgotangcowell squinn must be enjoying his summer break he's an 8th grader if i recall05:15
mdkehe's like 12 ;)05:15
jsgotangcoits my wife's birthday today05:16
mdkeits cool, but I just figured it needed someone to take charge and give it some love05:16
jsgotangcowe watched a bandminton tourney05:16
jsgotangcoit had europe vs. asia05:16
mdkejsgotangco, cool, say tanti auguri from me05:16
jsgotangcoasia kicked europe's arse05:16
jsgotangco(asia only had the gold medalist from the olympics btw)05:17
mdkeyou asians...05:17
jsgotangcothe female british player looks great though05:17
jsgotangcofrom what i know, UK has the #1 mixed double badminton team05:18
mdkeyeah i seem to remember them doing well05:19
mdkesilver at the olympics or something05:19
jsgotangcoRobertson & Emms05:19
jsgotangcowe're big badminton fanatics btw05:19
jsgotangcomy wife plays in the local leagues05:20
mdkebadminton is fun05:20
jsgotangcoyeah if you're in indonesia or malaysia, a tourney can pack 10,000 people05:20
jsgotangcobigger than an F1 event heh05:21
jsgotangcoi gotta start saving for 2012 heh05:22
mdkesee you here...05:22
jsgotangcowe're dead set on 200805:22
jsgotangcoare the lists dead?05:22
mdkedon't think so05:23
jsgotangcoi haven't been receving any ubuntu list email for at least 3 hours already05:23
mdkeoh yeah05:24
mdkemy email this morning didn't get through05:24
jsgotangcoi hope my email to jane this morning went through heh she was following up on some stuff from other UDU BOFs05:27
mdkewell it is highly likely only mailing lists are affected05:27
jsgotangcoi hope the others do remember that we have a meeting tommorow at 22UTC05:29
jsgotangcojeffsch said he might not be able to come at all since he has a number of commitments for tommorow05:30
mdkei have an italian meeting at 1900;)05:30
mdkeshould be a good evening05:30
jsgotangcoyou think its a good idea to have revolving meeting time (14 and 22)05:31
mdkedepends what everyone else prefers05:32
mdkei'm easy with both05:32
jsgotangcoits the best slots where everyone is awake in between05:35
jsgotangcoit wouldnt have been a problem if i was located in EU or in US05:36
jsgotangcoi guess i streched it heh05:36
mgalvinwhat about 2005:37
mgalvin22 is always tuff for me05:37
jsgotangcoit would be 4am on my side heh05:37
mgalvinthats 6pm here (work commute time)05:37
jsgotangco22 is 6am which is tolerable05:38
mgalvin22 is fine then, i usually make it home in time05:38
jsgotangco14 is actually good (10pm)05:38
mgalvin10am here :) thats good for me too05:38
jsgotangcohave you tried google earth05:39
jsgotangcodamn i never enjoyed looking at maps for a while05:39
mgalvinyea, its pretty darn cool05:39
mpt2200 UTC would be good for me normally, but not this Friday, coz I'll be in transit05:40
jsgotangcompt: where to?05:40
mptnowhere exciting :-)05:40
mdkeisn't it thursday the meeting?05:40
mptIt's Friday NZT05:40
mdkeah of course05:41
jsgotangcoi liked christchurch05:41
jsgotangcoyeah the meeting would be friday on my side as well05:41
jsgotangcoi gotta sleep05:51
mdkefroud, FYI i'm copying your stuff about software sources into the Ubuntu userguide05:55
mdkealthough making the necessary adjustments of course05:55
froudswitching hosts06:01
froudbb in 2 min06:01
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mdkefroud, can you help me with something a moment?06:19
froudi'll try06:19
mdkefroud, go to http://tseng2.ath.cx/~ubuntu-doc/userguide/C/06:20
mdketry clicking on the links06:20
mdkedo you notice that they are incredibly annoying to click on?06:20
mdkenot all of the title to each part is a link it seems06:21
froudsomething in the CSS I think I dont get the same problem here http://lnix.net/~froud/kuserguide/C/index.html06:23
mdkefroud, i was about to say that the kde docs don't have that problem06:23
=== mdke nudges jeffsch
froudthe main difference technically is the css06:24
mdkeok cool06:29
mdkefroud, by the way I added something about the MOTU in the Ubuntu userguide in the universe section. do you want me to put it into the kde userguide too?06:29
froudwhat did yo add06:29
mdkenot much06:29
mdkehang on06:30
mdke<para>The packages in the <quote>Universe</quote> repository are looked after by a Community Team called the <quote>Masters of the Universe</quote> (MOTU). However, there is no support from the core development team on the software packages residing in <quote>Universe</quote> and no guarantee of regular security updates, although the MOTU team will often provide security updates.</para>06:31
froudsure patch it06:31
mdkei saw the odd grammar thing too06:31
froudif you see grammar just patch06:32
froudsame for spelling06:32
mdkewill do06:32
froudthank hey06:33
mdkethe doc doesn't validate, although it's not in the part i edited06:34
mdkeah i see it06:34
mgalvincool, i just saw that kubuntu-doc was uploaded :)07:18
froudyes, it will be uploaded weekly07:19
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mdkehi there09:48
Njalhows you?09:48
mdkenot bad thanks09:49
Njalum why after clicking the check box on ubuntu-doc list that i don't want to recieve mail am i still getting it?09:51
mdkewhich check box did you click?09:52
mdkedisable mail delivery?09:52
NjalYeah, tomoro PC goes away in the garage 4 3 weeks09:53
NjalWont be recieving email09:53
mdkethe box you need to tick is "disable mail delivery = yes"09:53
mdkeif i recall correctly09:54
Njalbut i checked that09:54
mdkei'm not sure, you have to contact the list administrator09:54
Njalhmm can i view the page in lynx?09:54
mdkeno idea09:54
Njalwhat's the address again?09:55
Njalfirefox is dodgy atm09:55
mdkebut the server is down i think09:55
mdkehttp://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc sorry09:55
NjalHmm 09:56
NjalI think it is09:57
NjalOh i think i have just found the reason my system run's so damn slow09:59
NjalI don't appear to have swap space09:59
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froudgood night10:16
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mdkejeffsch, ping?10:34
rwabelmdke: you put a lot new howto's in the UserDocumentation :-)10:35
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rwabelmdke: shouldn't we also put a link to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUbuntuUsers on our Newbie section?10:36
rwabelsame for NewUserGuide10:37
rwabelor aren't they completly yet to put up?10:37
mdkerwabel, i don't think those are finished10:37
mdkerwabel, I'm sure the authors will add links when they are done10:38
mdkerwabel, one other tip for editing the wiki, if you make very small changes (such as fixing a link), check the "trivial changes" box10:50
mdkeyou can also use the "preview" button to see if the links are working before you submit changes10:50
mdkerwabel, the other thing is, for development documentation, such as docs for building packages, i think we should just point users to DevelopmentResources and keep the links on that second page. What do you think?10:57
rwabelyou mean the CheckInstall howto?11:27
mdkerwabel, that would be an example. Earlier today I moved another link too (about building deb packages from scratch)11:29
rwabelit should be easily found when you want to know how CheckInstall works. I didn't find anything about CheckInstall...but I didn't searched for long11:29
rwabelso I should add the link in DeevelopmentResources11:30
rwabelmhh somehow it doesn't fit...or where would u put that one in?11:31
rwabelmhh first section could be ok11:31
rwabelUserDocumentation gets better and better. Makes fun to contribute :-)11:35
mdkeyeah it's looking great11:35

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