[12:51] ok [12:52] will do it for the changes I've made too [12:52] I mean this from today...well yesterday for me [12:56] rwabel, nonono [12:56] rwabel, you dont' need to make changes on the page, just when you edit and save a page, fill in the little box that says "comment" [12:56] "Optional comment about this change" [02:29] mdke: have u seen, all the stuff under documents is gone :-) only the UserDocumentation! wow [02:30] ah it was you [02:32] yeah, I like the updates you have done very much!! [02:32] mdke: we should make some subsections for software. I'll think about some and make the changes === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:56] mdke: made the changes. btw doesn't UserDocumentation need a belonging? === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === FLeiXiuS [~fleixius@pcp0010487351pcs.essex01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:37] jsgotangco: do you know how to stop the wiki from automatically trying to create link from a word on a page? [05:43] using CamelCase? [05:43] i don't know how it does that in Moin [05:45] the SSHHowTo page uses "DestinationDirectory" in a couple of example, and the wiki really tries to link this to an non-existent page [05:46] well CamelCase would really do that although Im not sure how to override it aside from changing the text itself [05:46] (maybe there is no override either) === jeffsch [~jeffsch@fatwire-201-101.uniserve.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:47] jeffsch: hi [05:47] howdy [05:47] i'll be right back... ( crying baby...) [05:53] jsgotangco: what are the ARs from the previous meeting? [05:53] maybe we can add a list of them to the agenda page [05:54] so people know in advance, and maybe be better prepared [05:54] hmmm right i will have to review the chat logs though [05:54] *jeezz* [05:54] :) [05:54] there were people who said "I will do this" [05:55] etc [05:55] *grin( [05:56] surely not me! :) hehe [06:02] robitaille: Camel''''''Case. 6 apostrophes will prevent a link [06:06] yuck [06:09] there's also a short form: !CamelCase will do the same thing, except [06:09] that feature is off by default and needs to be activated [06:11] strange though, thats way better than 6 apostrophes [06:12] yeah. maybe there are other issues involved. i don't know. [06:13] well i'll brb for lunch === FLeiXiuS [~fleixius@pcp0010487351pcs.essex01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob^ [~rob@rob-ubuntu.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:42] jeffsch: 6 apostrophes to override CamelCase? can't say it's really user friendly :) [07:43] SSHHowto contains at least 5 ! So obviously the override was in use before the wiki transition. === froud [~sean@ndn-165-134-250.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:48] salut all [07:49] African Greetings [07:50] Hi Burgundavia Hi froud [07:50] so Burgundavia , did you go to the meeting tonight? [07:50] indeed [07:50] just got back in === mpt [~mpt@203-167-186-120.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-134-250.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:59] hello [09:16] gyahhh sorry [09:31] mdke/jsgotangco: What license are the ubuntu docs under? [09:31] And what license is the wiki under? [09:31] dual license [09:31] GFDL and CC-BY-SA 2.0 [09:32] oh, excellent [09:33] so if someone prints out copies of a page and distributes them, they don't need to include a copy of the GFDL with each one [09:37] The Gnome User Guide is GFDL solely, though, right? [09:37] rats [09:39] the wiki also goes by dual license? [09:41] I see nothing in the edit form which says what license your edits will be under [09:41] which is probably a bad thing === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:21] brb [10:48] hey, does anyone know how to recover lost wiki passwords? === _froud_ [~froud@ndn-165-134-250.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Njal [~neil@dsl-80-45-148-155.access.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:33] guys, why when i chose not to recieve email's from the list for the next few weeks am i still getting them? [11:48] hi all === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveaz [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [~mgalvin@host-66-202-95-170.spr.choiceone.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:25] hi all === gtaylor [~gtaylor@130-127-67-44.lehotsky.clemson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === gtaylor [~gtaylor@130-127-67-44.lehotsky.clemson.edu] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Kopete] === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kamping_Kaiser [~kaiser@ppp208-157.lns1.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@info1-51.info.com.ph] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:16] hello [04:17] hi jsgotangco [04:17] hi jsgotangco [04:18] hey what's happenin [04:18] hmmm the lists seems dead again [04:19] i'll have to change that ;) i should have some free time today [04:33] hey guys [04:33] hey [04:34] mdke! [04:34] hi jsgotangco :) [04:34] jsgotangco: on the codecs etc issues, lets ask people at canonical for an offical statement of the position [04:34] hi mdke [04:34] froud: sure jane can definitely have a say on that [04:34] we seem to be goin in square circles on it [04:35] i can email her later [04:35] OK can you, great. CC the list too [04:35] sure i sent her an email earlier on a totally different issue though [04:35] hopefully it will bring finality [04:36] yeah [04:36] although i was thinking something [04:36] we can still write stuff on codecs, etc. [04:37] but it would be a separate package and be in universe/multiverse instead [04:37] nice idea, but will it work for the user [04:37] bit complicated IMHO [04:37] lots of hassle just to get information about that [04:38] when I can just go to ubuntuguide.org [04:38] yes [04:38] plus most of our guides would have to be split into main/multiverse [04:38] why? [04:38] because many of them will have stuff about codecs/dvd's etc [04:39] i would prefer to ship everything together [04:39] isn't that only the faq guide? [04:39] well the user guide has things about mp3s and dvds too [04:39] yeah problem is just in faq for now [04:39] i assume the kde user guide does too [04:39] no [04:39] so the kde user guide doesn't tell people how to listen to mp3s? [04:39] or play dvds? [04:40] I am restricting to main and restricted [04:40] the two most common tasks on a computer? [04:40] what gets installed [04:40] for many users... [04:40] mdke: the app itself points to where you can get the codec, like Kaffeine [04:40] and hint to expansion [04:40] it explicitly indicates where to get them as well [04:40] user goes from there [04:41] If Kaffeine user manual points there, that is all I need reference [04:41] i prefer going to main and restricted route as well for general documentation [04:41] right [04:41] that is pretty restrictive [04:41] especially for the faqguid [04:41] its not supported in the first place [04:41] e [04:41] mdke: where is the cut-of line then ? [04:41] universe and multiverse are supported [04:42] also backports will be supported for breezy [04:42] by whom? [04:42] there's a reason whey there's an ubuntu logo on packages in synaptic [04:42] by official Ubuntu teams [04:43] mdke: adding them leads to problems [04:43] MOTU, backports [04:43] and makes definition of the cuttoff hard [04:43] safe to stick with main and restricted [04:43] yeah [04:43] i disagree wholeheartedly ;) [04:43] main and restricted are guaranteed [04:43] universe, multiverse, backports can be a hit or miss [04:44] in what way hit or miss? [04:44] are you sure all stuff in universe are properly maintained? [04:44] they are community maintained, but mark and everyone else at ubuntu regards them as "supported" [04:44] we're talking about 19,000 packages [04:45] mdke: there must be a cut-off point [04:45] yes [04:45] i suggest the cut off point be those things which are not supported by Ubuntu [04:45] thus including main, restricted, universe, multiverse, backports [04:45] mdke: support is not given as abosolute on those [04:45] ok this is why we need to get higher direction on what to do [04:45] we can ask the Community Council and Jane [04:46] Oh no not more of that [04:46] I just suggested we ask to get confirmation on whether or not they will agree to us explaining how to install stuff that is dubious [04:46] not to have a halabaloo [04:47] in a business sense, it can be dodgy [04:47] what is our aim === Kamping_Kaiser [~kaiser@ppp208-157.lns1.adl2.internode.on.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [04:47] what do we want to do? [04:47] froud, yours is a knee jerk reaction against the Community Council, but the reality is that they are the people to give guidance on this [04:47] we want the user to get started on the distro and know where to go further [04:48] froud: +1 [04:48] ok [04:48] mdke: no dude, sorry yu think that [04:48] if you ignore universe and multiverse it is a FACT that people will not use your docs and will continue to go to ubuntuguide.org [04:48] I would suggest clear cutoffs [04:49] well in a distro sense, look at RHEL and Fedora [04:49] open universe and multiverse an dyou open a can of worms and more work that you can finish for the release [04:49] froud, you don't need to cover everything, you just need to ensure that users that want to play mp3s and dvds know how they can do it [04:50] there are certain things that users will want to do very commonly [04:50] sorry I am normally a go, go, do everyting guy, but on this I err on the side of less risk [04:50] yeah [04:50] i don't think this is a risk or an excessive burden [04:50] point users where they need to go [04:50] but I do think that guidance from above is important [04:50] as you have both said already [04:51] from my point of view, the question is whether you want users to find your docs helpful, or not [04:51] if they need to install then the manual should explain the generic [04:51] mdke: it is useful [04:52] a user guide which doesn't help users to watch dvd's is not entirely useful [04:52] it is useful in other ways, but not in an important common task [04:52] A user guide that instructs you to configure apt [04:52] update sources [04:53] and explains the components [04:53] then says look in there if you need it, this is how you install [04:53] hmm [04:53] the this is how you install is a generic thing === jsgotangco checks his windows box on dvds, etc. [04:54] you dont actually say to people install this or that [04:54] froud, ok you _would_ envisage telling users about universe/multiverse? [04:54] I do when I configure apt [04:54] right so simply telling them about the package "gstreamer0.8-mad" for mp3s is hardly a bit step forward [04:54] Updated, Windows XP compatible DVD decoders are available through the following DVD solution providers: [04:55] there [04:55] http://lnix.net/~froud/kuserguide/C/pt08.html [04:55] jsgotangco, the problem you face with bringing out a "windows" argument is that all PCs _SHIP_ with windows and have a working dvd player installed [04:55] hey [04:55] that's true in your place [04:56] not in ours or in other places as well [04:56] yeah [04:56] ok but in general [04:56] here we insall dvd on windows [04:56] there's no difference, the point is that even they pointed [04:56] all I am asking is to point [04:56] no they did not [04:56] you and froud are saying that we shouldn't point at the right packages [04:56] they gave me a dvd player with sony software [04:57] dude [04:57] you're a lawyer you know what that entails [04:57] jsgotangco, i know that universe and multiverse are legal [04:57] otherwise Ubuntu wouldn't provide them [04:57] wait [04:58] libdvd is in multiverse? [04:58] no [04:58] libdvdcss is installed by running a script included with the package dvdread i think [04:58] i don't necessarily think we should be supporting that [04:58] In Universe you can find almost every piece of known open source software, and software available under a variety of less open licences, all built automatically from a variety of public sources. All of this software is compiled against the libraries and using the tools that form part of Main, so it should install and work well with the software in main, but it comes with no guarantee of security fixes and support. The Unive [04:58] i agree on that [04:59] "under a variety of less open licences" [04:59] erm [04:59] "but it comes with no guarantee of security fixes and support" [04:59] most of universe is gpl2 [05:00] its multiverse that is not open source [05:00] "security fixes and support" [05:00] ... [05:00] I dont even consider instructing a user to install it. I tell them its available [05:00] listen we all know what universe is [05:00] I say use it if you want [05:00] the fact is that it is considered as supported. There have been plenty of threads on ubuntu-devel on this subject [05:01] we all know there are no guaranteed security updates [05:01] and i agree, it is important to tell the users this [05:01] I say I showed you how to isntall, now you can do what you want [05:01] yep [05:02] but users need to know which package does what in some cases (gstreamer0.8-plugins are an obvious example) [05:02] give users a hint, but don't directly instruct them to install a non gpl package [05:03] ok sure [05:03] my view is to inform them as much as possible so they can take their own informed decisions [05:03] if you tell them to install something that violatates a software patent, then people can be liable [05:03] mdke: agreed [05:03] not saying dont tell them they must do it [05:04] hmm i don't see anything in fedora about stuff like this either [05:04] just explain nicely and direct them for more info [05:04] not allowed, period [05:04] dodgy [05:05] jsgotangco: not allowed, period [05:05] not even a question [05:05] yep [05:05] if users want it the ask in the community [05:05] saying "fedora don't do it" is not a convincing argument for me [05:05] we have to make up our own minds about what sort of documentation we provide [05:05] mdke: there are reasons [05:05] no wonder Turbo Linux shipped a commercial player (and jacked up the price) [05:05] froud, i'm sure there are [05:06] I am not saying we need to be as radical, I am saying define the limits of the gray area [05:06] work in this [05:06] don't step in the black [05:06] make a workaround while still retaining the grey area [05:06] balancing act [05:06] yes === mdke blinks [05:07] jeez you guys use a lot of buzz words [05:07] so long as it can never be said that we told anyone to install patented technology illegally [05:07] its how lawyers do it right *wink* [05:07] jsgotangco, i'm not that sort of lawyer, but yeah [05:07] mdke: you're an honorable one then :) [05:07] froud, i don't think anyone will disagree with that [05:08] k [05:08] nothing in universe or multiverse has the problem [05:08] must go for a minute [05:08] the/that [05:08] bbl [05:08] also, nothing in backports should have that problem either [05:08] (when backports becomes official) [05:08] backports official? [05:08] erm [05:09] jsgotangco, where have you been for the last month? [05:09] when they reside in ubuntu servers you mean [05:09] the team will be official (see next weeks CC agenda) and yes, they will be on ubuntu servers and have proper rules [05:10] even so, they're still not in Main :) [05:10] neither is the MOTU work [05:10] we're going in circles heh [05:11] yeah [05:11] square ones, as froud would say :[ [05:11] s/[/p === mdke coughs [05:11] oohh check this out [05:11] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule [05:11] although fedora docteam has a redhat employee heading them [05:12] cool [05:12] you know what [05:12] changing the subject for a moment [05:12] sure [05:12] those two guys who said they'd take charge of the Ubuntu userguide have not yet done anything [05:13] Sean Quinn and Jon Atkinson [05:13] yeah [05:13] NO WAY [05:13] i was thinking maybe I would take it on [05:13] i've done quite a lot of work on it over the last couple of days [05:14] sure i'll just finish my styleguide contrib and help you out on that as well as breezy-fy the quickguide soon [05:15] well squinn must be enjoying his summer break he's an 8th grader if i recall [05:15] he's like 12 ;) [05:16] its my wife's birthday today [05:16] its cool, but I just figured it needed someone to take charge and give it some love [05:16] we watched a bandminton tourney [05:16] it had europe vs. asia [05:16] jsgotangco, cool, say tanti auguri from me [05:16] hehe [05:16] asia kicked europe's arse [05:17] (asia only had the gold medalist from the olympics btw) [05:17] meh [05:17] you asians... [05:17] the female british player looks great though [05:18] from what i know, UK has the #1 mixed double badminton team [05:19] yeah i seem to remember them doing well [05:19] silver at the olympics or something [05:19] Robertson & Emms [05:19] we're big badminton fanatics btw [05:20] my wife plays in the local leagues [05:20] cool [05:20] badminton is fun [05:20] yeah if you're in indonesia or malaysia, a tourney can pack 10,000 people [05:21] bigger than an F1 event heh [05:21] :) [05:22] i gotta start saving for 2012 heh [05:22] see you here... [05:22] we're dead set on 2008 [05:22] are the lists dead? [05:23] don't think so [05:23] i haven't been receving any ubuntu list email for at least 3 hours already [05:24] oh yeah [05:24] my email this morning didn't get through [05:26] dammit [05:27] i hope my email to jane this morning went through heh she was following up on some stuff from other UDU BOFs [05:27] well it is highly likely only mailing lists are affected [05:29] i hope the others do remember that we have a meeting tommorow at 22UTC [05:30] jeffsch said he might not be able to come at all since he has a number of commitments for tommorow [05:30] hmm [05:30] i have an italian meeting at 1900;) [05:30] should be a good evening [05:31] you think its a good idea to have revolving meeting time (14 and 22) [05:32] yeah [05:32] depends what everyone else prefers [05:32] i'm easy with both [05:35] its the best slots where everyone is awake in between [05:36] it wouldnt have been a problem if i was located in EU or in US [05:36] i guess i streched it heh [05:37] what about 20 [05:37] 22 is always tuff for me [05:37] it would be 4am on my side heh [05:37] thats 6pm here (work commute time) [05:37] ouch [05:38] 22 is 6am which is tolerable [05:38] 22 is fine then, i usually make it home in time [05:38] 14 is actually good (10pm) [05:38] 10am here :) thats good for me too [05:39] have you tried google earth [05:39] damn i never enjoyed looking at maps for a while [05:39] heh [05:39] yea, its pretty darn cool [05:39] yeah [05:40] 2200 UTC would be good for me normally, but not this Friday, coz I'll be in transit [05:40] mpt: where to? [05:40] Christchurch [05:40] nowhere exciting :-) [05:40] isn't it thursday the meeting? [05:40] It's Friday NZT [05:41] ah of course [05:41] doh [05:41] i liked christchurch [05:41] yeah the meeting would be friday on my side as well [05:51] i gotta sleep [05:51] later [05:55] froud, FYI i'm copying your stuff about software sources into the Ubuntu userguide [05:55] :p [05:55] although making the necessary adjustments of course [06:01] yw [06:01] switching hosts [06:01] bb in 2 min === froud [~sean@ndn-165-134-250.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:19] froud, can you help me with something a moment? [06:19] i'll try [06:20] froud, go to http://tseng2.ath.cx/~ubuntu-doc/userguide/C/ [06:20] try clicking on the links [06:20] do you notice that they are incredibly annoying to click on? [06:21] not all of the title to each part is a link it seems [06:23] something in the CSS I think I dont get the same problem here http://lnix.net/~froud/kuserguide/C/index.html [06:23] froud, i was about to say that the kde docs don't have that problem === mdke nudges jeffsch [06:24] the main difference technically is the css [06:29] hmm [06:29] ok cool [06:29] froud, by the way I added something about the MOTU in the Ubuntu userguide in the universe section. do you want me to put it into the kde userguide too? [06:29] what did yo add [06:29] not much [06:30] hang on [06:31] The packages in the Universe repository are looked after by a Community Team called the Masters of the Universe (MOTU). However, there is no support from the core development team on the software packages residing in Universe and no guarantee of regular security updates, although the MOTU team will often provide security updates. [06:31] sure patch it [06:31] okies [06:31] thanks [06:31] i saw the odd grammar thing too [06:32] if you see grammar just patch [06:32] same for spelling [06:32] will do [06:33] thank hey [06:34] the doc doesn't validate, although it's not in the part i edited [06:34] ah i see it [06:34] fixed [07:18] cool, i just saw that kubuntu-doc was uploaded :) [07:19] yes, it will be uploaded weekly === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === judax [~troy@ppp-69-148-17-34.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Njal [~neil@dsl-80-46-167-189.access.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:48] lo [09:48] hi there [09:48] hows you? [09:49] not bad thanks [09:51] cool [09:51] um why after clicking the check box on ubuntu-doc list that i don't want to recieve mail am i still getting it? [09:52] which check box did you click? [09:52] disable mail delivery? [09:53]