[12:07] lets go then === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:11] hey burgs [12:11] -meeting === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:27] Burgundavia! [12:27] salut [12:27] right now? [12:27] yes [12:27] 25 mins in [12:27] ;) === mgalvin [~mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:19] someone want to check over my rewrite of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AudioCDCreation === shane__ [~shane@CPE000d881daec9-CM00407b7f6cfb.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:24] what does this do? = [Dashboard] : Firefox = [01:25] I am having trouble with installing a linksys usb adapter. can anyone help? Please. [01:25] you are a LEGEND [01:25] Burgundavia, i'll take a peek, i gotta read the log for the meeting anyway [01:25] shane__, #ubuntu can help [01:25] Burgundavia, i came across that page today and noticed it was out of date. Link it on UserDocumentation pls :) and thanks! [01:25] I have tried there, but too much chatter and nobody responds. [01:26] I have followed the wiki wireless instructions. [01:26] shane__, i am no expert, but I have found "dmesg" very useful for troubleshooting wireless [01:27] what is dmesg? [01:27] shane__, its a command [01:27] I have only been running linux for 3 days. [01:27] shane__, it tells you what is going on deep within your system ;) [01:27] ah ok [01:27] if I were you I would try the forum for help, and tell them what steps you have followed [01:28] I see. [01:32] I ran dmesg and it sure puts out a lot of info. [01:33] ;) [01:33] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AcrobatHowTo [01:33] rewritten [01:33] I found where it configured my usb thumb drive. [01:33] Burgundavia, YOU ARE A GOD [01:34] most of the docs on the wiki suck [01:34] they are too long [01:34] look at the diff for the acrobat one [01:35] Where do you go for good docs? [01:35] Burgundavia, on AudioCDcreation, Horay does, Gnomebaker. [01:35] gnomebaker doesn't appear to be in the hoary repos anymore [01:35] can you still install it? [01:35] I have it installed.. [01:35] packages.ubuntu.com says no [01:36] shane__, forum, wiki, ubuntuguide.org [01:36] can you do "apt-cache -policy gnomebaker" for me? [01:36] its in universe [01:36] hmm,that is odd [01:36] must have messed up my search [01:37] rob@rob:~$ apt-cache policy gnomebaker [01:37] gnomebaker: [01:37] Installed: 0.3-3 [01:37] Candidate: 0.3-3 [01:37] Version table: [01:37] *** 0.3-3 0 [01:37] 500 http://au.archive.ubuntu.com hoary/universe Packages [01:37] done [01:37] 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status [01:37] fixed it [01:37] sorry for pasting [01:37] np [01:37] thanks [01:51] can I merge https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuideAddingRepositories into https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesHowto [01:51] why did these NewUser stuff appear anyway? [01:51] Burgundavia, afraid not [01:51] that is their own initiative [01:51] they are writing a version of the ubuntuguide.org === uniq_ [~frode@213.184.199.55] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:52] gah [01:52] why? [01:52] I am fixing AddingRepos right now [01:52] there is a new team called "New User Network" [01:52] what? [01:52] it is even a team in launchpad [01:52] why all these duplication of effot? [01:53] you don't wanna know my view about it [01:53] its not repeatable [01:53] indeed [01:53] can I be bold then? [01:53] Burgundavia, not easily, the team has been approved by the CC [01:53] what???? [01:53] excuse me? [01:53] yeah [01:53] its an official team [01:54] that is total and complete crack [01:54] I can see a new team,but more sources? [01:54] s/sources/docs [01:54] agreed [01:55] the team essentially afaics has the purpose of "officialising" people who help in irc and on the forum and on the wiki [01:55] ah [01:55] which no doubt makes them feel cool [01:55] that is fine [01:55] but which caused a division of effort [01:55] we don't need more wiki docs because of it [01:55] its crack [01:55] the ubotu in #ubuntu now points to these NewUser guide crap [01:55] yes [01:55] it used to be NewbieGods [01:56] I pulled jasoncohnen in here the other day to talk about it [01:56] but I ended up not being here when he did show up [01:57] just pinged him again [01:57] i've talked to mez and Seveas a little about it [01:57] it has had certain undesirable side effects [01:57] yes [01:58] one of which is the duplication of documentation [01:58] it sould be clear that documentation in the wiki is our preview [01:58] if the NewUser people want to help in #ubuntu and the forums, and point to our docs, that is fine [01:58] ok, I have removed the non-graphical ways of adding repos from AddingRepos [02:00] Burgundavia, see also http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=47739 [02:03] read it [02:03] hmm [02:03] people seem to misunderstand why we don't like ubuntuguide.org [02:04] well i'm not surprised [02:04] there is not enough love going on, and too much division [02:04] people are too quick to say negative stuff instead of explaining patiently [02:04] I am going to write a reply there [02:04] okies [02:05] as my name carries the "ubuntu doc team" beside it, it should have some weight [02:05] heh [02:08] look forward to your reply [02:08] i gtg to bed [02:08] nite [02:08] i gotta start work [02:08] heh [02:09] ill just check the log later [02:09] and make a summary [02:09] update DocteamProjects as well === rob^ [~rob@rob-ubuntu.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:15] brb === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@202.57.71.236] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === cafuego [~cafuego@macchiato.cc.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:18] hey [02:18] I am little concerned about what ubotu is spitting out === cafuego trips on the way in and bumps his head [02:18] that ntfs thing really concerns me [02:18] you offer a script without explanation [02:18] Howso? Much like a wiki, people can add stuff if it works for them. [02:19] what I would love if you would point to a wiki page that we (the doc team) can edit [02:19] the ubotu is a closed thing to us [02:20] Burgundavia: Well, you can always modify the factoid and point it at a wiki page, that's a trivially easy command. '/msg ubotu no, is ' [02:20] can I suggest an idea for the bot? [02:20] Burgundavia, yes people are filling it full of crap [02:20] only allow links to ubuntu wiki pages [02:20] anything else gets tossed [02:21] like yesterday, someone added !gay [02:21] indeed [02:21] Burgundavia: That's not very practical, there are other explanations for things (acronyms etc) that don't need wiki links. [02:21] I think I might not have explained myself very well [02:21] Burgundavia: A bit of vigilance by responsible adults can keep most crap out of the bot. [02:21] if you add a link, make it it a wiki link [02:22] non-linked explanations are fine [02:22] such as the !usrepos one [02:22] ie: check for http and if not wiki then trash it? [02:22] Burgundavia, maybe an acl is needed for the bot, or an approval process? [02:22] check if not ubuntu.com or ubuntlinux.org [02:22] becuase bugzilla links are ok to [02:22] rob^: whoa, who's going to code that? ;-) [02:22] such as for the usrepos one [02:23] cafuego, well, it would solve a lot [02:23] I have played with a few bots that have acls [02:23] Burgundavia: My main reason for this one is that I can fetch and search package listings for files/depends. [02:23] cafuego, that is very cool [02:23] and i like that [02:23] just be careful where you point to, and with what explanations [02:24] Additional features is all very well, but my knowledge of perl is fairly negligable. [02:24] exactly why we don't recommend ubuntguide.org anymore [02:24] I'm sure they're ready to shoot me on #perl ;-) [02:24] thanks for running it [02:24] I'll be quite happy to check if I can do some ACL thingie for adding URIs, but it might be a while. [02:24] just got to be careful about what we hand out [02:25] probably, but cool never the less [02:25] can you post a dump of what the bot responds to somwhere? [02:25] I did manage to add a !wiki command [02:25] say a wikipage for something? [02:26] Burgundavia: Just a CSV dump? I could do you an RSS feed of all factoids... there's a web interface on http://ubuntu.cc.com.au/ wtm. [02:26] no, the web interface is fine [02:27] shame we cant edit them from there [02:27] :) [02:27] rob^: That's trivial to implement actually ;-) [02:28] cool [02:28] with acl though? [02:28] rob^: My normal fee is $165/h ;-) [02:28] heh === rob^ points to google [02:29] couldnt help it [02:31] all right [02:32] well I better be off, got to do the shopping [02:34] hmm, I have issues with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuideMultimedia [02:34] but no idea how to fix it [02:34] I have issues with nug [02:35] new user guide should cease to exist [02:36] but now ubotu doesn't point to NewUserGuideAddingRepos CLI stuff [02:36] it now points to the graphical one [02:36] help.ubuntulinux.org should be good [02:36] yes [02:36] coming soon, RSN [02:37] bbl [02:37] k [02:37] same === cafuego adds search [02:47] (badly) [02:49] cafuego, I think I can scrape together $5, that will give you 2 minutes or so to implement the changes :) [02:49] you said trivial.. [02:49] rob^: yes, it does mean anyone else can also edit the factoids ;-) [02:50] i might have another $5 for an acl. [02:50] :P [02:56] with hilights === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jasoncohen [~jason@pcp0011382713pcs.ebrnsw01.nj.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:24] hey [03:24] the meeting was finished [03:25] but I had some queries regarding the NewUserGuide stuff [03:25] lol, i always get the message too late [03:25] ok, shoot [03:25] heh [03:25] basically, it is a duplication of effort [03:25] Burgundavia, that is what I said [03:25] I agree [03:25] can I merge https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuideAddingRepositories into https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesHowto [03:25] I would like to kill the first page [03:25] why not, if its relevent [03:25] and I have fixed the 2nd page [03:26] but I understand the NewUser people are an official team now [03:26] since when? [03:26] basically, I want the new user people to leave docs to us [03:26] ditto [03:26] rob^, its in launchpad [03:26] oh ok [03:26] (sabdfl must have created it) [03:26] Burgundavia, how would they be merged? the point of my page was really to make it easier for users to enable all the repositories that are needed for multimedia codecs/apps- not as a general guide [03:27] yeah, it is a duplication of effort though [03:27] rob^, please [03:27] basically, there is no need for lots of little docs [03:27] that say that same thing [03:27] Burgundavia, I agree [03:27] New user people are just making an admin nightmare [03:28] so we fix the existing pages [03:28] and point them around [03:28] rob^, well, it's partly a duplication but on the adding repositories guide that shows/tells you how to add hoary extras [03:28] jasoncohen, at the bottom of addingrepos, we point to restricted formats [03:28] its a pretty simple process anyway jasoncohen [03:28] which tells them how to do it [03:28] i'm not against the other pages. i mean- i actually added the screenshots to the adding repositories page for hoary [03:28] jasoncohen, also, the newuseraddingrepos advocates the commandline [03:28] having two pages on the subject is a waste of time and effort [03:28] which is very non-ubuntu and quite scary for new users [03:29] Burgundavia, only because i find it easier - i can add a synaptic section [03:29] Burgundavia, why scary? [03:29] jasoncohen, that doesn't fix the fundamental problem [03:29] which is CLI and duplication of effort [03:29] so what I am trying to do, is say this "work with the doc team on this, not in parallel" [03:30] i don't see it that way. this has to be the #1 or #2 problem i hear on #ubuntu [03:30] Burgundavia, I'm glad I'm not the only person who sees it that way [03:30] clearly, other people didn't find the general docs clear enough [03:30] all the doc team sees it as duplication [03:30] jasoncohen, then fix the existing docs [03:30] users find my multimedia guide simple & to the point [03:30] just merge them what's the problem [03:30] I find your userguide long === jsgotangco goes back to work [03:30] here is how I see the process working [03:30] because they want to know what they need to add repositories for multimedia stuff in one place- with specific - not general instructions [03:30] and the faq I'm working on will cover everything newusersguide people are doing also [03:30] that's why i added the new page [03:30] new users helps new users [03:31] identifies areas that our docs are weak [03:31] and its official [03:31] works with the doc team to fix them [03:31] not, writes their own docs [03:31] have you told the people in #ubuntu-nun ? [03:31] no [03:31] Burgundavia, well, can you give a preview of how you would merge it? [03:32] I would kill it, basically [03:32] merge the useful stuff into adding repos and restircted formats [03:32] if there was a TOC then it could be linked to directly and have both general & specific instructions on one page [03:32] jasoncohen, there is going to be one soon [03:32] we need short wiki pages [03:32] i don't think this would fit into restricted formats...the info contradicts [03:32] and linked extensively [03:32] jasoncohen, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation [03:32] preview [03:32] then we fix restricted [03:33] for example- i tell users to just install libdvdcss2 for DVDs and to install w32codecs if they want divx/xvid/wmv/quicktime support. the restricted formats guide just says not to use those formats. [03:33] right now NewUserAddingRepos is no better than ubuntuguide [03:33] jasoncohen, there are some legal issues that need to be sorted out as well [03:33] jasoncohen, in that we shouldnt mention it at all.. [03:33] jasoncohen, we are the doc team, we write docs [03:34] nun tells us what docs to write and how to clarify them [03:34] is that a good division of effort? [03:34] well- i couldn't mention that in restricted formats. it's official and the recommendation is legally fishy [03:34] but i can unofficially [03:34] it is on the official wiki [03:34] in an official ubuntu wiki? [03:34] thus it is official [03:34] the courts will not quible between your page and ours [03:35] yes, ubuntu clearly states info on the wiki are the author's opinions and not ubuntu [03:35] that is fine [03:35] then why not merge into the existing docs? [03:35] good point [03:36] well, i don't have a problem if it's merged with a TOC as long as the instructions are specific & not general [03:36] they can be as specific as they need to be [03:36] you need to tell us where we are falling down [03:36] new users were constantly asking about this issue. [03:36] ok, well, i'm not opposed to adding it to addingrepositories then [03:37] but can agree that nun will not create an new docs? [03:37] you'll have to speak to nun directly. i'm a member of nun. i don't speak for everyone. [03:37] and that we can remove the existing page that are prefixed with NewUser that we have docs for alrady? [03:37] ok [03:38] can you show me a preview first? [03:38] too much freedom! heh [03:38] you can fix it once I am done [03:38] if you disagree [03:39] eh bring on help.u.org [03:39] ok === tiglionabbit [~nick@c-67-171-159-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:44] btw, wha'ts wrong with linking to AddingRepositoriesHowto? [03:45] it doesn't have a ready sources.list, with a hoary-extras mirror in it === tiglionabbit [~nick@c-67-171-159-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:57] hi [03:58] salut [03:58] I get problem with conflicts in UbuntuDocumentation [03:58] Edit conflict - other version: [03:58] Edit conflict - your version: [03:59] that would have been me [03:59] what were you trying to do/ [03:59] ? [03:59] I've added a new howto [03:59] americas army [03:59] ah [03:59] add it now [04:00] mhh it's already added but the conflict is still there [04:01] fix it [04:02] ah I see, I can just remove it...I'm quit new to the wiki stuff === mgalvin [~mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:18] hummm...it seems "my" old IBMJava wiki page has been removed from the Java page. But I'm still on the RestrictedFormats page :) [04:19] heretic! [04:19] *grin* [04:20] we are having a good discussion in #ubuntu-nun about what target audience for nun [04:20] some people don't understand that we are targeting grandma [04:20] i will join [04:21] so we don'grandma [04:21] tso we don't want grandma to use IBM's Java? === robitaille thinks his typing is bad tonight... [04:22] I have been going to town on the wiki [04:22] robitaille, you think I have been doing useful things? [04:22] wow are you guys talking about what to write or how to organize what is currently written? [04:23] a little of both [04:23] haven't checked your changes yet. But did noticed you are using "CoreyBurger2" [04:23] yes [04:23] so does mdke [04:23] he uses MatthewEast2 [04:23] seems a lot of duplication has been happening [04:23] why? [04:23] (for the "2") [04:23] no idea [04:24] I had an account on the old wiki and launchpad [04:24] probably it [04:24] jsgotangco: I keep thinking I should do a bit of work on the Wiki. But life keeps getting in the way (and work that happen to be scheduled at the same time than Ubuntu meetings...) [04:25] same here im beginning to hate my work although the pay is good at the moment heh [04:25] personally I love my work...but the pay could be better [04:25] (but at least I have a job...) [04:26] grrr [04:26] jobs are nice [04:28] i would have wanted to stay in my current job after the contract if it was possible though [04:29] but im also talking to a prospective employer at the same time and if they would give me an offer, i definitely won't refuse [04:30] (although if that happens that would mean i have to be low-key in ubuntu) [04:30] that would suck [04:30] well yeah it would be a conflict of interest [04:34] jsgotangco: don't do it...don't go work for Microsoft :) [04:35] haha [04:35] no [04:35] i'm currently on contract with Oracle [04:35] but i've been talking with people from the local Novell office [04:35] cool [04:36] but the position is evangelical in nature [04:36] that would be cool [04:36] hence it would be a riot if i speak for them and present using ubuntu [04:36] yeah i do hope it happens though [04:44] do we have an official definitition of which pages are to be put in the "CategoryDocumentation"? [04:45] (just wondering if IPodder fits in that category or not [04:45] not really [04:46] looks like docs to me [04:46] might need a "Crack" warning label though [04:46] oh great the discussion is now about writing [04:47] I am just going to keep on plowing ahead [04:47] and take it to the CC if something bigger erupts [04:47] but then GnomeLaunchBox has that CategoryDoc label. [04:48] Burgundavia, aye [04:48] i will brb for a while then === mgalvin [~mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:25] done for this evening in case anyone has time to commit those, thnx in advance [06:26] g'night all === mgalvin [~mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:32] holy heck, I was just reading my log of #ubuntu-nun from the last few hours, funny stuff [07:32] Burgundavia, I'm sure you had to repeat yourself about 50 times! [07:32] heh [07:32] I just got back :) [07:32] is the log in fabbione's site? [07:33] no, just what I had in xchats scrollback [07:33] well from what i understand when i stayed there briefly there were talking about writing instead of guiding which is what NUN is all about [07:34] yeah, but the problem is they are just duplicating effort [07:35] they would be much better off improving what is already there [07:35] exactly [07:36] maybe even join the wikiteam.. [07:36] having sites like ubuntuguide.org are very unavoidable and thats what's community is all about [07:37] but as long as it resides on official servers then there should be ground rules on these [07:37] agreed [07:37] as a distro, we are all in growing pains as a community but it doesn't have to be like the wild wild west [07:37] and if they are going to sit in official irc channels they should refer to the official documentation where possible [07:37] right [07:38] if they dont think its up to scratch, improve whats there.. etc [07:38] so if the bot is spewing up stuff like !gay then we have a problem [07:38] yeah.. like yesterday [07:39] how does one go about getting ops on officical #ubuntu channels? [07:39] i really like the aggressiveness on their side which only shows how enthusiastic these people are [07:39] hehe I put a # [07:40] i think the ops thing has been discussed before in previous CC meetings [07:40]