[04:18] <kbrooks> hELLO.
[04:18] <kbrooks> Hello*
[04:18] <kbrooks> Well, here's the reason why we joined.
[04:19] <kbrooks> I bbl
[04:19] <jbailey> Hm? =)
[04:19] <kbrooks> breakfast
[04:20] <kbrooks> mgalvin, explain?
[04:20] <mgalvin> kbrooks, sure
[04:20] <mgalvin> hey guys, so...
[04:20] <mgalvin> we were discussing how people should be instructed to install java on ubuntu...
[04:21] <mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Java
[04:22] <mgalvin> now gcj/gij can also be installed automatically by some apps, eclipse for now
[04:22] <mgalvin> er, for one example
[04:22] <jbailey> Right, automatic dependancy since gij is the VM of choice
[04:23] <mgalvin> i raised a concern about the two(jre/gij) interfering with each other as in my experience i have seen them collide many time and seen a bunch of java apps get confused
[04:23] <mgalvin> ant for one
[04:25] <mgalvin> so i guess the real question is, do you guys know if they can in fact co-exists peacefully, or do you guys have a recommened best way of dealing with this
[04:25] <mgalvin> since obviously some people will also want suns jre/sdk b/c of the security manager issue
[04:26] <jbailey> Well, and also complete API. =)
[04:26] <mgalvin> yea that is always nice too ;)
[04:27] <jbailey> We haven't done exhaustive tests.  Usually the binary VMs like blackdown have you install a wrapper that points /usr/bin/java and all of them.
[04:27] <jbailey> It winds up conflicting against java-gcj-compat
[04:27] <jbailey> that ought to remove any hints to ant and friends that they want to use gij instead.
[04:30] <mgalvin> so removing java-gcj-compat could possibly allow them to co-exists?
[04:32] <mgalvin> what other things dep on java-gcj-compat that might be affected? er am i misunderstanding?
[04:32] <jbailey> Well, you should also have something that provides java-virtual-machine so that new pointers for /usr/bin/java and friends exists
[04:32] <jbailey> Nothing should only have a dependancy on java-gcj-compat
[04:32] <jbailey> It should always be that | java-virtual-machine
[04:33] <jbailey> That way we specify a default, and it can always be overridden by something else.
[04:34] <kbrooks> so
[04:34] <kbrooks> any solution yet?
[04:34] <mgalvin> ok, either way we still need to do more extensive testing to see how they affect each other
[04:35] <mgalvin> if we switch java-virtual-machine, would eclipse in universe still work
[04:35] <kbrooks> get back to #ubuntu-doc with a solution.
[04:35] <mgalvin> k
[04:37] <jbailey> It ought to, I beleive.
[04:37] <jbailey> The trick is that Java apps in Ubuntu are built with two passes.
[04:38] <jbailey> The first of which is just a standard Java compile.
[04:38] <jbailey> the second of which takes that and compiles it to a native binary
[04:38] <jbailey> The idea is that you can always fall back to pure Java if you want.
[04:39] <kbrooks> okay
[04:43] <mgalvin> thats why i love ubuntu so much, you guys actually think about what your doing
[04:43] <jbailey> We try. =)
[04:43] <kbrooks> Yup, we try.
[04:43] <jbailey> Although we're a bit light on the Java team.  If you want to get involved, we'd love to have you.
[04:44] <kbrooks> Well.
[04:44] <mgalvin> its starting to feel pretty cozy in here :)
[04:44] <kbrooks> I'd be glad to get involved
[04:44] <kbrooks> and deal with hoary.
[04:44] <mgalvin> maybe i will hang around more
[04:44] <jbailey> Well, ther's not alot left to be done with Hoary.
[04:44] <jbailey> We're already in the first stage of freeze for breezy.
[04:45] <kbrooks> jbailey, Uh. i know hoary is frozen
[04:45] <mgalvin> i am a java programmer by trade after all
[04:45] <kbrooks> but i would like java installation to be made easier newbies
[04:46] <jbailey> kbrooks: Cool.  Anything you can do with documentation would be great.  But our Java story there isn't very strong.
[04:46] <kbrooks> seeing as the recommended method for Java installation is #1, at wiki.ubuntu.Com/Java
[04:46] <kbrooks> and that seems...harder.
[04:46] <kbrooks> by definition.
[04:46] <jbailey> what I'd especially like is more eyes on the Breezy java situation so that we come out the door with a really good clean story.
[04:47] <kbrooks> jbailey, Maybe.
[04:47] <jbailey> But to some degree, we'll still inherit clean up work does in Hoary.
[04:47] <kbrooks> jbailey, i guess i can help with breezy too.
[04:48] <kbrooks> heh
[04:50] <jbailey> Are you guys already Ubuntu members?
[04:50] <jbailey>  / MOTUs?
[04:51] <mgalvin> kbrooks, so it seems the solution is to properly utilize java-virtual-machine
[04:51] <mgalvin> i am an ubuntu member
[04:51] <kbrooks> mgalvin, OK
[04:51] <kbrooks> er, "ubuntu member" meaning?
[04:51] <mgalvin> not an MOTU yet...
[04:53] <mgalvin> kbrooks, you can become an ubuntu member but making significant contributions to ubuntu
[04:53] <mgalvin> you can find more about the process on the wiki
[04:54] <jbailey> It's the first step to getting upload rights for packages and such.
[04:54] <jbailey> I want to make sure that we properly record contributions and stuff that you do here so that when it comes time for you to apply that we don't have to try and remember.
[04:54] <kbrooks> Me?
[04:54] <kbrooks> Did you just say me?
[04:55] <jbailey> If you're interested, yes.
[04:55] <kbrooks> jbailey, Look at the Ubuntu Java wiki page please.
[04:56] <kbrooks> Is  reducing the methods from 7 to 3 a "significant contribution"?
[04:57] <jbailey> kbrooks: no, it's something you build up over time.
[04:57] <kbrooks> Ah.
[04:57] <kbrooks> OK
[04:57] <kbrooks> Count me in.
[04:57] <jbailey> Nice!
[04:57] <kbrooks> My name is Kyle Brooks. just whois me
[04:58] <jbailey> kbrooks: Will you make a wikipage for yourself?
[04:58] <kbrooks> detailing what?
[04:58] <jbailey> Your name, what you're interested in, what you've done.
[04:58] <kbrooks> okay then.
[04:58] <jbailey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com//JeffBailey
[04:58] <jbailey> is mine.
[04:58] <jbailey> I need to update it
[04:59] <jbailey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OliverGrawert is ogra's
[05:00] <kbrooks> I will have to copy the style of your page. Fine with you?
[05:00] <jbailey> Oh, sure. =)
[05:00] <kbrooks> OK
[05:39] <kbrooks> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Java
[05:39] <kbrooks> Look.
[05:49] <wasabi_> Why?
[05:50] <kbrooks> It doesn't suck now.
[05:51] <mgalvin> is it meant only for hoary
[05:52] <kbrooks> .....
[05:52] <kbrooks> Let me check.
[05:52] <wasabi_> ya'll realize the only legally acceptable way is "quick sun jdk install"
[05:52] <mgalvin> shouldn't we start putting in the breezy related stuff we discussed (gij)
[05:53] <kbrooks> No.
[05:53] <kbrooks> It's too early to do so.
[05:53] <mgalvin> ok
[05:54] <kbrooks> wasabi_, Why?
[05:54] <mgalvin> iirc isn't the only technically legal way, to d/l the jre directly from sun
[05:54] <wasabi_> Yes. Correct.
[05:54] <wasabi_> Which is why java-package is in existance.