[12:07] <venda> me, myself and my shadow?
[12:07] <rob^> evening
[12:07] <Mez> <-- Martin Meredith
[12:07] <Mez> so what meeting is this?
[12:07] <rob^> <-- robert stoffers
[12:07] <Mez> oh, Doc team :D
[12:07] <mdke> this is the documentation meeting
[12:07] <mdke> ok all, agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda
[12:08] <mdke> by Member Introductions I presume he means new members?
[12:08] <mdke> introduce yourself rob^!!
[12:09] <rob^> Ok, I'm an Australian, 23 and made the switch to Ubuntu about 2 months ago
[12:09] <mdke> welcome :)
[12:09] <mdke> a related matter is how on earth are we going to get rob^ and mgalvin commit access?
[12:09] <rob^> I'm an ex-Debian user, but like Ubuntu for its regular release schedule and up-to-date packages
[12:10] <rob^> and the fact it has apt-get :)
[12:10] <judax> welcome, rob!
[12:10] <mdke> rob^, what do you envisage working on in the docteam? (we know the answer, but just in case you have more plans...)
[12:11] <rob^> The faq guide takes my fancy at the moment, but time will tell I guess
[12:11] <mdke> cool
[12:11] <rob^> I'm cycling onto shiftwork soon, so I'll actually be getting *paid* to write :)
[12:11] <mdke> awesome!
[12:12] <judax> getting paid, what is that?
[12:12] <mdke> anyone have any ideas re: commit access?
[12:12] <mdke> i have spoken to henrik
[12:12] <mdke> we have bugged elmo
[12:12] <rob^> nothing better to do, I have already worn out one xbox controler
[12:12] <mdke> what more can we do?
[12:13] <mdke> i guess we just have to wait for debconf to end :-(
[12:13] <venda> guess so
[12:13] <mdke> not good, considering the 48 hour undertaking we were given previously
[12:13] <mdke> sorry rob^ :(
[12:13] <mdke> we're trying our best!
[12:13] <rob^> yeah I know
[12:14] <judax> it has been more than 48hrs that is for sure
[12:14] <rob^> oh did I mention I did a little work for the KDE docteam? I even won a prize which never turned up
[12:14] <mdke> o.o
[12:14] <Riddell> rob^: what was the prize?
[12:14] <mdke> cool
[12:14] <judax> venda!
[12:14] <mdke> lol @ Riddell's highlights
[12:14] <rob^> umm I think it was a t-shirt
[12:15] <Riddell> mdke: hay, I was watching this anyway :)
[12:15] <Riddell> rob^: want me to hassle someone?
[12:15] <mdke> don't disillusion me!
[12:15] <ogra> mdke, you wont belive how many ppl watch ;)
[12:15] <mdke> argh
[12:15] <rob^> Riddell, go for it, it was a long time ago
[12:15] <mdke> ogra, :)
[12:15] <rob^> though
[12:15] <jbailey> mdke: It's true. =)
[12:16] <mdke> lol
[12:16] <mdke> that's really cool
[12:16] <mdke> we want to promote awareness of our activities in the community
[12:16] <mdke> next agenda item?
[12:16] <mdke> any more for the first one?
[12:16] <rob^> I'm good
[12:16] <mdke> mgalvin isn't here so he can introduce himself another time
[12:17] <judax> nope, AIs next
[12:17] <mdke> AGENDA ITEM:  Follow-up on ARs (Action Required) from previous meeting (see DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary6)
[12:17] <mdke> hmm
[12:18] <mdke> which documents have/have not got specs?
[12:18] <mdke> the ubuntu userguide doesn't have one to my knowledge
[12:18] <judax> I did kquickguide spec
[12:18] <mdke> cool
[12:19] <rob^> does the faq? I dont remember seeing one
[12:19] <venda> no time:-(
[12:19] <judax> hehe
[12:19] <venda> just plodding on kubuntu-docs
[12:19] <mdke> its only a paragraph that's required really
[12:19] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide
[12:20] <mdke> I will do one for the Ubuntu userguide
[12:20] <venda> K
[12:20] <judax> following jeffsch example on style guide makes it go quick, really
[12:20] <mdke> (although in parenthesis I should say that the two guys who are taking charge of the userguide have not done anything yet)
[12:21] <mdke> we can come onto that later
[12:21] <mdke> what else is action required?
[12:21] <mdke> re: shipping in HTML
[12:21] <judax> think that was decided
[12:21] <mdke> i spoke to mdz about that at the edubuntu summit
[12:22] <mdke> he said that there was probably no need to go through the TB for that
[12:22] <mdke> so that box can be ticked
[12:22] <mdke> judax, yeah
[12:22] <rob^> mdke, I know the qandaset the faq uses doesnt display at all using yelp
[12:22] <rob^> html may be the only option for it
[12:23] <mdke> rob^, yeah the decision to ship html was taken, it was just a question of informing -devel
[12:23] <venda> rob^: correct
[12:23] <rob^> ah good
[12:23] <jsgotangco> sorry i arrived so late
[12:23] <mdke> ok we can move on
[12:23] <mdke> morning jsgotangco 
[12:23] <mdke> what else is Action Required?
[12:23] <mdke> docteam.ubuntu.com?
[12:23] <jsgotangco> yeah
[12:23] <mdke> apparently the servers are being sorted this week
[12:23] <mdke> henrik said we should have it by next week
[12:24] <mdke> i wouldn't count on it, but that is good news anyhow
[12:24] <venda> next year more like
[12:24] <mdke> oy
[12:24] <venda> just tell it as it is :-)
[12:24] <mdke> optimism = good
[12:25] <mdke> anyhow, as everyone knows, we have found some decent temporary solutions, thanks for the kubuntu team and tseng
[12:25] <venda> better order help.ubuntu.com early
[12:25] <mdke> agreed
[12:25] <jsgotangco> ask elmo?
[12:25] <venda> ha
[12:25] <mdke> ok  is "jdub's suggestion on existing documentation already in the distro" an ActionRequired?
[12:26] <jsgotangco> well i've started on it actually
[12:26] <mdke> cool
[12:26] <jsgotangco> but im stumped on some things like sk
[12:26] <jsgotangco> i won't be able to do it on my own
[12:26] <mdke> i think we need guidance from jdub on it
[12:26] <jsgotangco> its way bit too complicated on my current skill set
[12:27] <Burgundavia> good timing
[12:27] <mdke> wb
[12:27] <jsgotangco> well not just jdub imo, anyone who is involved in creating the catalog as well
[12:27] <mdke> sorry should have highlighted you when you first came in
[12:27] <venda> jsgotangco: what is sk?
[12:27] <jsgotangco> scrollkeeper
[12:27] <Burgundavia> just joined, breezy and X currently are having issues
[12:28] <venda> ah
[12:28] <mdke> Burgundavia, ;)
[12:28] <mdke> ok so what do you propose we do jsgotangco ?
[12:28] <venda> hmm, what existing docs are we speaking about
[12:28] <jsgotangco> that and im in the middle of an Oracle contract, so it kinda got stuck for a while
[12:28] <judax> gnome docs
[12:28] <venda> kde docs
[12:28] <venda> manpages
[12:28] <venda> debian docs
[12:29] <jsgotangco> etc. etc.
[12:29] <venda> personally, not want I want to be doing
[12:29] <venda> or I would be upstream
[12:29] <venda> dont mind using upstream
[12:29] <jsgotangco> indeed IMO its an upstream issue really
[12:29] <venda> and if can push up
[12:29] <mdke> its just a question of making upstream docs appear in ubuntu
[12:30] <venda> but to tackle upstream docs is not want I want to be doing
[12:30] <mdke> not necessarily changing them or improving them
[12:30] <mdke> just harnassing them
[12:30] <venda> mdke: they do already
[12:30] <mdke> venda, all?
[12:30] <venda> well in kubuntu they do
[12:30] <venda> nice kde docs
[12:30] <mdke> that's cool
[12:30] <jsgotangco> there's still stuff not included from /usr/share/docs that doesn't appear in sk at all
[12:30] <judax> aye, but there was a component of using upstream content in our docs 
[12:30] <mdke> jsgotangco, yep
[12:30] <jsgotangco> and there's a mix of xml and html
[12:31] <jsgotangco> so its not consistent either
[12:31] <mdke> i suggest we stress jdub for an action plan on this
[12:31] <mdke> it was his idea after all ;)
[12:31] <jsgotangco> i guess i would have to shorten my goal on just making a catalog on it for now
[12:31] <venda> jsgotangco: sk is a borked system
[12:31] <jsgotangco> venda: very
[12:32] <venda> jsgotangco: I don't thing one really needs such a dependancy in the docs
[12:32] <jsgotangco> adds another layer agreed, but that's what we have for now
[12:33] <mdke> ok how are we gonna leave this?
[12:33] <jsgotangco> its still open
[12:33] <jsgotangco> it won't really go further without a developer's help
[12:33] <mdke> well the only remaining idea I have is what I've already said: stress jdub for an action plan
[12:33] <venda> mdke: why are we forking upstream docs
[12:33] <mdke> venda, we are not
[12:33] <judax> venda: not forking
[12:34] <venda> if we dont then we may aswell all move upstream
[12:34] <jsgotangco> they're not 'forked'
[12:34] <mdke> venda, the suggestion is simply that we make things in /usr/share/doc appear in yelp. Not changing or forking them, or even moving them
[12:34] <judax> start looking upstream to see if we can integrate better (by shipping docbook, translating source documentation formats, etc)
[12:34] <venda> Hmm we do that already
[12:34] <jsgotangco> judax: right, incidentally not all docs in that folder are in source
[12:35] <mdke> well i have no more ideas on this subject
[12:35] <judax> jsgotangco: ok
[12:35] <jsgotangco> basically the bulk of work is diving in and looking what is there
[12:35] <venda> chaps its not our task to make everyone elses docs appear in sk
[12:35] <venda> the mainters should do that
[12:35] <mdke> venda, the proposal was whether we are going to make it our task, discussed at the previous meeting
[12:36] <jsgotangco> right its a GNOME thing at the moment
[12:36] <venda> the problem is upstream
[12:36] <venda> file a bug
[12:36] <venda> if you want
[12:36] <jsgotangco> its someting that the whole team should not get involved with imo
[12:36] <venda> =1
[12:36] <venda> +1
[12:36] <jsgotangco> but people are freeto do it anyway
[12:36] <jsgotangco> thats why im doing it
[12:36] <venda> can stop them
[12:37] <mdke> ok let's move on then
[12:37] <rob^> there is a fair few man pages appering in yelp already
[12:37] <mdke> yeah some do
[12:37] <jsgotangco> even fedora and rhel don't even fix this
[12:37] <jsgotangco> thats why their pages are in html
[12:37] <mdke> any more items that are Action Required from previous meeting, or can we move onto the next agenda item?
[12:37] <jsgotangco> anyway, its a totally different story so let's move on
[12:37] <venda> jah man pages and info are best at the prompt
[12:38] <mdke> venda, i tend to agree. let's move on
[12:38] <mdke> ok AGENDA ITEM: "Author updates on DocteamProjects"
[12:38] <rob^> me me! 
[12:38] <mdke> shall we go through em one by one?
[12:38] <jsgotangco> well ok basically let's just have people talk about the status of their work
[12:39] <mdke> rob^, sup
[12:39] <venda> GO ROB!!!
[12:39] <rob^> Well, I need to be added to that page :)
[12:39] <mdke> rob^, you need to add yourself as lead on the projects btw
[12:39] <mdke> heh
[12:39] <mdke> syke
[12:40] <venda> rob^: are you only doing gnome
[12:40] <rob^> I think the Ubuntu version is comming along and may even be ready for Breezy, but there is very little content for Kubuntu 
[12:40] <venda> or do you give some kde love
[12:40] <rob^> venda, yes at this stage
[12:40] <mdke> is there a kde version of the original ubuntuguide that could be harnassed?
[12:40] <rob^> yes
[12:40] <rob^> KUDOS
[12:41] <mdke> that will help right?
[12:41] <judax> rob^: kubuntu faq?
[12:41] <rob^> http://kudos.berlios.de/
[12:41] <rob^> ubuntuguide, but for kubuntu
[12:41] <venda> we have permission to port it
[12:41] <judax> yes, read that last night
[12:41] <mdke> rob^, any plans for that?
[12:41] <mdke> venda, rock
[12:41] <venda> just needs a person to do it
[12:41] <venda> I started
[12:41] <rob^> well, I was thinking we could add a lot of stuff from there for the kde profile in the faq
[12:42] <venda> but too much going on
[12:42] <jsgotangco> rob^: its can be ported we talked to the original author already and gave permission
[12:42] <rob^> good
[12:42] <mdke> rob^, well if you and mgalvin feel you can take it on, that would be supercool
[12:42] <rob^> I also noticed the licence was compatible too
[12:42] <venda> rob^: that was the idea
[12:42] <rob^> I will speak to mgalvin, but I cant see why not
[12:42] <venda> rob^: the author released it to us under terms of the docteam licenses
[12:42] <mdke> rock
[12:42] <mdke> nice one
[12:42] <rob^> it might not be ready for breezy though
[12:43] <mdke> rob^, just do what you can :)
[12:43] <venda> if kfaq is good can package
[12:43] <rob^> yeah :)
[12:43] <mdke> ok next project
[12:43] <mdke> styleguide
[12:43] <mdke> jeffsch ain't here
[12:43] <venda> jury duty
[12:43] <mdke> ubuntu quickguide? jsgotangco 
[12:43] <jsgotangco> well i started on international.xml already
[12:43] <mdke> venda, really? ;)
[12:43] <venda> poor bugger
[12:44] <mdke> i hope he doesn't get like a 6 month case
[12:44] <jsgotangco> Colony 2 won't run well on my side so i haven'
[12:44] <jsgotangco> t even started it
[12:44] <venda> nah back friday
[12:44] <mdke> jsgotangco, do you envisage that a lot of work will be needed to update it?
[12:44] <jsgotangco> mdke: not much really
[12:44] <mdke> yay
[12:45] <jsgotangco> mdke: unless the artwork gets changed
[12:45] <mdke> let's face it... it will
[12:45] <jsgotangco> its basically review/add/delete work
[12:45] <mdke> okies
[12:45] <venda> Riddell: why do we not have Colonies for Kubuntu
[12:45] <mdke> cool
[12:45] <mdke> About Ubuntu, squinn
[12:46] <venda> have not seen him lately
[12:46] <mdke> no
[12:46] <mdke> i am slightly concerned about that doc being looked after by him
[12:46] <mdke> but no doubt we will improvise later on
[12:46] <Riddell> venda: because Kamion hasn't made any
[12:46] <Riddell> venda: and I guess now isn't a good time to start, X and all that
[12:47] <venda> Riddell: is the nightly build working now
[12:47] <venda> Riddell: we need that x stuff fixed aspa
[12:47] <Riddell> venda: there are nightly builds (didn't work very well last I tried)
[12:47] <venda> asap
[12:47] <venda> yes I know
[12:47] <mdke> *coughs*
[12:47] <venda> Riddell: venda = froud
[12:47] <Riddell> aah :)
[12:48] <venda> Riddell: it really stands inmy way 
[12:48] <venda> please resolve that issue
[12:48] <mdke> daniels is working as fast as he can
[12:48] <mdke> on topic?
[12:48] <mdke> ubuntu userguide?
[12:48] <Riddell> yes, it's daniels
[12:48] <jsgotangco> arent you the one doing it
[12:48] <venda> kubuntu quick guide?
[12:48] <judax> awaiting review, but some things will need to change/added based on breezy decisions, venda has some insight on this
[12:48] <venda> oh later
[12:48] <mdke> as I said earlier, the two guys who took charge of the ubuntu userguide haven't yet edited it at all
[12:49] <mdke> i am slightly concerned about that
[12:49] <jsgotangco> well once i get breezy running smoothly i will look into it
[12:49] <mdke> venda, then you should have spoke up when we decided that two meetings ago :/
[12:49] <venda> dude, I am already in the dwang for saying what I think
[12:49] <judax> owners is not a bad thing
[12:50] <venda> you think me wants more
[12:50] <judax> but you need people to commit
[12:50] <mdke> calm voicing of opinion is good
[12:50] <mdke> anyhow
[12:50] <mdke> i have been working on the ubuntu userguide quite a bit recently, and it needs a lot of work still
[12:50] <mdke> i was thinking maybe I would undertake to give it some love
[12:51] <venda> mdke: I see you and xpointer are making friends
[12:51] <mdke> venda, shall we say we are still sniffing each other's bottoms
[12:51] <rob^> thanx
[12:52] <venda> mdke: poh
[12:52] <venda> pooh
[12:52] <mdke> so what do people think?
[12:52] <mdke> would it be reasonable for me to put myself down for ubuntu userguide?
[12:52] <judax> why wouldn't it be reasonable?
[12:52] <venda> mdke: its all you 
[12:53] <jsgotangco> sure if you can still put time for it
[12:53] <mdke> okay
[12:53] <mdke> kubuntu docs?
[12:53] <mdke> they are rocking afaics
[12:54] <venda> kubuntu docs
[12:54] <venda> yes
[12:54] <judax> kquickguide is reviewable, but some stuff will need to be changed/added depending on breezy decisions
[12:54] <mdke> sounds good
[12:54] <venda> we have all the infrustructure set and working
[12:54] <jsgotangco> yeah kquickguide is a sure deliver
[12:54] <judax> froud started some of those things
[12:54] <venda> we just need people to write
[12:55] <venda> and we need kubuntu-devel to get  the install working
[12:55] <judax> About Kubuntu is no issue
[12:55] <venda> its a major blocker for us
[12:55] <judax> Kynaptic User would have been ready, but it may be worthless now
[12:56] <mdke> judax, how come?
[12:56] <mdke> oh i c
[12:56] <mdke> sorry kynaptic yeah
[12:56] <judax> mdke: Kynaptic may go away
[12:56] <venda> we have many not decided issues in devel
[12:56] <venda> these and the x issues are major problems for us
[12:57] <mdke> what are we going to do with Release Notes (both K and G)?
[12:57] <venda> to scared to write to much for fear it will not be like that
[12:57] <venda> k release notes started
[12:57] <mdke> cool
[12:57] <rob^> venda, I can relate
[12:57] <mdke> i guess its hard to do much on release notes until a later stage?
[12:58] <jsgotangco> right
[12:58] <venda> Riddell: pls those issues, pls solve them fast
[12:58] <mdke> venda, you've made your point
[12:58] <venda> obviously not
[12:58] <mdke> venda, i'm sure they do their best
[12:58] <venda> we need answers
[12:58] <venda> not wil do best
[12:58] <venda> dates 
[12:58] <mdke> venda, docs are not their only consideration
[12:58] <venda> milestones
[12:58] <mdke> ok we have dates
[12:58] <venda> docs are my only consideration
[12:58] <jsgotangco> OT
[12:59] <venda> my task to bat for them
[12:59] <venda> mdke: you have dates
[12:59] <mdke> we have feature freeze on aug 11
[12:59] <venda> but we have no working system
[12:59] <judax> k docs will rock 5.10, worries not
[12:59] <venda> longer no working system, closer date comes, less can do
[12:59] <mdke> judax, agreed
[01:00] <jsgotangco> whip 'em on #ubuntu-devel why dont you
[01:00] <mdke> venda, ok well you can continue that discussion outside this forum
[01:00] <jsgotangco> instead of doing it our meeting
[01:00] <mdke> cool
[01:00] <mdke> jsgotangco, ++
[01:00] <mdke> next agenda item?
[01:00] <venda> jsgotangco: its a doc problem no?
[01:01] <jsgotangco> there's no point on feeling helpless at the moment and we're not the only one affected
[01:01] <judax> Wiki Team update?
[01:01] <venda> jsgotangco: how do you write docs with no gui
[01:01] <mdke> venda, enough now man
[01:02] <jsgotangco> venda: whine to daniels like what everybody else does
[01:02] <mdke> its a good point, this is not the place
[01:03] <mdke> wiki team update: thanks to robitaille we have fixed the broken icons on the wiki. current main initiative is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation which we are trying to give a structure to allow wiki docs to become more accessible
[01:03] <venda> night all wiki is not for me
[01:03] <mdke> IMHO it is already starting to rock
[01:03] <mdke> venda, there are more items after this one
[01:04] <judax> venda: night
[01:04] <venda> mdke: wiki, back ports and gnome not for me
[01:05] <mdke> that's about all i can think of on wikiteam
[01:05] <mdke> venda, ok night then
[01:05] <venda> chow
[01:05] <jsgotangco> let him be obviously he's only interested in specific things that only interest him instead of the whole team
[01:05] <mdke> ok let's carry on
[01:05] <mdke> gnome user guide... this is an awesome problem
[01:05] <rob^> hey
[01:05] <jsgotangco> hmm
[01:05] <rob^> just in time mgalvin 
[01:05] <mdke> hey mgalvin 
[01:06] <jsgotangco> you mean the 2.6 doc in yelp?
[01:06] <mgalvin> :) did i miss all of it
[01:06] <rob^> yea
[01:06] <mdke> i can introduce the gnome user guide problem quickly
[01:06] <rob^> almost
[01:06] <jsgotangco> mdke: break a leg
[01:07] <jsgotangco> as you were saying?
[01:07] <mdke> basically, there is a gnome user guide. It is nice, but WELL out of date. We have three ideas that have been suggested: 1. make a vendor drop and use bits of it in our ubuntu userguide by xincluding (froud's idea). 2. copy and paste interesting bits (preferred by me). 3. take it and update it and rewrite it as the Ubuntu user guide (suggested by jeffsch)
[01:08] <jsgotangco> why complicate something with #1 when its easier for you to do #2 and #3
[01:08] <mdke> the second solution is the most selfish, because it precludes sending improvements upstream
[01:09] <mdke> but it is the easiest in terms of effort
[01:09] <judax> 1 is cool and all, but it seems 1 works best if the content you want to bring in is current
[01:09] <jsgotangco> right
[01:09] <mdke> btw you can see it here: http://www.gnome.org/learn/
[01:09] <judax> I like 3, followed by 1 when needed if upstream updates
[01:09] <mdke> judax, with 1 we could still update the vendor drop and send it back to gnome cvs
[01:10] <judax> mdke: but doesn't that fly in the face of the leave upstream alone discussion we just had?
[01:10] <jsgotangco> question: is #1 doable to people here at the moment
[01:10] <mdke> judax, i don't think so. It would just be a helpful thing to do
[01:11] <mdke> my personal view is that we don't have the time for 1 or 3
[01:11] <mdke> but jeffsch may commit some time, in which case they might become doable
[01:11] <jsgotangco> you can make it a long term goal though
[01:11] <mdke> also mpt was looking at it...
[01:11] <judax> 3 could be a good base
[01:11] <judax> to start from
[01:11] <mdke> jsgotangco, the problem is if we go for 3 and don't have it ready for breezy, there will be no userguide for breezy
[01:12] <judax> isn't 3 actually a merge of current Ugug and gug?
[01:12] <jsgotangco> then go to the easiest route to be able to ship for breezy and make a long term goal for post breezy breezy+1
[01:12] <mdke> judax, yes
[01:12] <mdke> jsgotangco, that is what I would also say
[01:13] <mdke> 3 isn't a lot different from 1 really...
[01:13] <mdke> except you end up helping upstream more with 1
[01:13] <mdke> but helping upstream can also be done by joining the gnome documentation team
[01:13] <mdke> ;)
[01:13] <jsgotangco> after breezy everyone will have enough time to harness it considering we have a longer schedule ahead 
[01:14] <judax> there is about 1 msg a week on that list
[01:14] <mdke> judax, quite
[01:14] <mdke> ok i would be tempted to plump for solution 2, better solution to be found for breezy +1
[01:15] <mdke> unless we get a mass of activity on it from new people
[01:15] <judax> mdke: I agree with mdke and jsgotangco, need to concentrate on what can be shipped and plan to help upstream when our house is in order
[01:16] <mdke> any other views?
[01:16] <mgalvin> i think i like 3, and hope to have more time to help attain that goal
[01:16] <mdke> with 3, is there a chance to poke it back upstream without Ubuntu specific changes?
[01:17] <mdke> i.e. what are the advantages of 3 over 1?
[01:17] <judax> they are all a means to the same end I think
[01:17] <mgalvin> well, i would still like to push things upstream if we can
[01:17] <mdke> yeah
[01:17] <mdke> i actually tend to prefer 1
[01:17] <mgalvin> while not making it more complicated than it needs to be
[01:17] <mgalvin> but i am not agaist 1
[01:18] <judax> Ugug has to get done and we should push upstream when we are able and have the time and plan to do so
[01:18] <mdke> basically, xinclude the whole (updated) guide, then write customisations for Ubuntu
[01:18] <mdke> yeah I am kinda already just thinking about this on a breezy+1 level
[01:18] <mdke> updating the gnome guide is already a huge job
[01:19] <mdke> ok let's move on
[01:19] <jsgotangco> well its upstream work again
[01:19] <mdke> [backports for breezy] 
[01:19] <rob^> ok
[01:19] <rob^> What I wanted to say was, as I mentioned on the mailing list, I've been told that backports are to become official, but unsupported. I doubt some packages such as w32codecs/libdvdcss2 will make it either.
[01:19] <rob^> what is the best way of telling people they need to install packages such as libdvdcss2 and w32codecs? People want to view movies and dvds using Ubuntu, not mentioning this at all will cause things like ubuntuguide.org to spring up all over again. But then theres the problem of leaving us open to legal problems by telling people how to do this, not to mention Canonical probably wont want us to do this either. How do we proceed?
[01:19] <Burgundavia> the patent only stuff may make it
[01:19] <Burgundavia> w32codecs will not
[01:20] <mdke> my view on this issue is that we wait and see
[01:20] <mdke> it will almost certainly be discussed at the CC meeting next week
[01:21] <Burgundavia> what is clear is libdvdcss2 and w32codecs are 2 seperate kettles of fish
[01:21] <judax> jsgotangco: gimmie
[01:21] <mdke> legally speaking yeah
[01:21] <Burgundavia> the patent-infringing only stuff we can probably talk about
[01:21] <Burgundavia> w32codecs is theft
[01:21] <rob^> well I will hold of writing anything until a firm decision is made
[01:21] <jsgotangco> mdke: you're the barrister, what is your opinion
[01:21] <judax> I never advocated telling people how to break laws, just that we shouldn't put our fingers in our ears either
[01:22] <mdke> jsgotangco, my hunch is that we shouldn't refer people to packages that might be legally dodgy. However we can refer em to RestrictedFormats and we DEFINITELY should tell them about the various repositories that exist
[01:22] <mdke> including official backports
[01:22] <mdke> but IMHO it is too early to tell
[01:22] <rob^> mdke, yeah, thats my problem
[01:23] <mdke> i am fairly sure that Canonical will not agree to put w32codecs and other dodgy stuff in any official hoary-extras repo on the Canonical servers
[01:23] <jsgotangco> why not just make a generic doc and have it point to a wiki entry that constantly changes to reflect what is the consesus on those formats
[01:23] <judax> it is also responsible to say: hey, we know this doesn't work and there is a reason it doesn't work, it is not that we just forgot about it
[01:23] <mdke> so we have to wait and see IMO
[01:23] <jsgotangco> what way you can still ship that doucment
[01:23] <jsgotangco> instead of aiming to include it in shipped book
[01:23] <mdke> in terms of stuff which is supported by multiverse, I am in favour of telling people about the stuff (gstreamer plugins etc) but ensuring that they know their legal responsibility
[01:24] <mdke> the passage about multiverse in the kde userguide is quite good on that iMO
[01:24] <rob^> mdke, I will take a look
[01:24] <jsgotangco> i can ask sibs on it anytime we exchange emails lately on other issues
[01:24] <mdke> oooh
[01:24] <mdke> other issues eh
[01:25] <jsgotangco> non-docteam issues heh
[01:25] <mdke> o.o
[01:25] <rob^> I point them to restrictedformats (as I have already done) at this stage then
[01:26] <jsgotangco> rob^: safest path at the moment imo
[01:26] <mdke> rob^, in the userguide I've told people how to install mp3 support from multiverse, but avoided dvds and w32codecs so far
[01:26] <rob^> ok
[01:27] <mdke> in fact I've avoided backports entirely, but will write in support when it is clear what is going on with them
[01:27] <jsgotangco> im going to compare again
[01:27] <jsgotangco> Fedora doesn't even delve on this
[01:27] <rob^> yes
[01:27] <rob^> they dont
[01:28] <mdke> well then, their users don't get essential info
[01:28] <mdke> but anyhow, IMO we need to wait and see on this question
[01:28] <rob^> its a pain in the butt quite frankly, but I agree we will need to wait and see
[01:29] <jsgotangco> better if i ask silbs now
[01:29] <jsgotangco> so that we'll get a reply later
[01:29] <mdke> jsgotangco, the thing is, the status of backports has not yet been confirmed, it will be discussed at CC this week and we can discuss the legal issues
[01:29] <jsgotangco> oh ok
[01:29] <mdke> in the end, I believe Canonical will go and get an answer from their lawyers...
[01:30] <jsgotangco> TurboLinux is the only distro I know that ships these stuff legally
[01:30] <rob^> jsgotangco, how?
[01:30] <jsgotangco> other than that, all are dodgy implementations
[01:30] <rob^> w32codecs?
[01:30] <judax> Linspire does
[01:30] <jsgotangco> rob^: they licensed from MS and got PowerDVD
[01:30] <mdke> they probably pay for them or something
[01:30] <judax> mdke: yes they do
[01:31] <rob^> jsgotangco, I wonder if ubuntu has that sought of money?
[01:31] <rob^> probably not..
[01:31] <jsgotangco> mdke: disgust on turbolinux?
[01:31] <mdke> rob^, they have it, but it would be against policy to do that stuff...
[01:31] <mdke> general disgust
[01:32] <Mez> what? at me entering the channel?
[01:32] <judax> it is disgusting, all of it is BS
[01:32] <jsgotangco> lol
[01:32] <rob^> mdke, yeah, your right but it would help a lot of people :)
[01:32] <mdke> hehe
[01:32] <mdke> ok topic closed?
[01:32] <rob^> yeah
[01:32] <jsgotangco> just to close then
[01:32] <mdke> any more business?
[01:32] <jsgotangco> TurboLinux sells their distro for $70 with a legal codec 
[01:32] <judax> I am going on 2-week holiday :)
[01:33] <rob^> jsgotangco, ah
[01:33] <jsgotangco> well
[01:33] <jsgotangco> ok what did we accomplish so far
[01:34] <judax> started slow, but a good meeting nonetheless, imho
[01:34] <mdke> me too
[01:34] <jsgotangco> well yeah although 22:00UTC meetings are murder for me
[01:35] <judax> jsgotangco: 2200UTC in Canada is not bad :)
[01:35] <rob^> 8am here
[01:36] <jsgotangco> 6am on my place!!! w00t but not so bad i guess
[01:36] <judax> 630pm here and into 3 frosty
[01:36] <jsgotangco> ok so next meeting we go back to 14:00UTC
[01:36] <jsgotangco> on the 28th
[01:36] <judax> s/3/3rd
[01:36] <jsgotangco> we revolve between 14:00 and 22:00
[01:37] <jsgotangco> that cool with you all
[01:37] <mgalvin> what about 2300UTC
[01:37] <mgalvin> obviously 2200 is tuff for me
[01:38] <judax> mgalvin: wru located?
[01:38] <jsgotangco> what time would that be on your side ?
[01:38] <mdke> i can do 14 and 22
[01:38] <rob^> 1400z is 2am here
[01:38] <jsgotangco> yay
[01:38] <mgalvin> new york, us
[01:38] <judax> mgalvin: ah, commute time?
[01:38] <mgalvin> 6pm, work commut time
[01:38] <mgalvin> yup, u got it!
[01:38] <jsgotangco> well we can adjust accordingly, mdke is the only euro i know on this team atm
[01:38] <jsgotangco> heh
[01:38] <jsgotangco> ;-P
[01:39] <judax> I work from home so usually not an issue for me
[01:39] <mgalvin> lucky you
[01:39] <jsgotangco> mgalvin: we'll adjust the agenda for you just in case
[01:39] <judax> aye
[01:40] <jsgotangco> but generally, 14 and 22 is quite acceptable to most people here (except those in AU and NZ on 14UTC)
[01:40] <rob^> hehe yeah like me
[01:40] <rob^> 22 is ok though, 8am
[01:41] <jsgotangco> its only our 2nd regular meeting anyways so we'll adjust accordingly
[01:41] <jsgotangco> what's important is that we're beginning to have this regularly
[01:41] <rob^> I'm in kilo time
[01:41] <jsgotangco> alright so anything else?
[01:41] <mdke> jsgotangco, ++
[01:41] <jsgotangco> anyone wants to discuss aything else
[01:41] <mgalvin> i can sometimes make it home in time, so if its just me don't worry to much about it, i will just try to let you guys know when i can't
[01:42] <mgalvin> do we know svn commit access status?
[01:43] <rob^> no
[01:44] <Burgundavia> need to contact elmo, whom I haven't seen in irc for ages
[01:44] <mdke> yeah he's at debconf
[01:45] <mdke> we discussed at the beginning of the meeting
[01:45] <mdke> not a lot mroe we can do
[01:46] <rob^> how come one of us doesnt have that access on svn anyway..
[01:46] <Burgundavia> the plan if for us to switch to bazaar for breezy+1
[01:46] <mdke> rob^, the svn server is in the Ubuntu server farm, only elmo has access
[01:47] <rob^> yeah I know, why is he the only one though?
[01:47] <mdke> because he is careful
[01:47] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, where is pda testing going?
[01:47] <mdke> even henrik doesn't have access to the wiki
[01:47] <rob^> yeah :P
[01:52] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: i asked mdz about it yesterday but no reply yet
[01:54] <jsgotangco> as for svn access, if the team opts to keep svn when everything is already in Baz, we may have to administer our own svn
[01:54] <jsgotangco> anyways, ok till next meeting then, 14:00UTC July 28
[08:35] <robitaille> because Tuesday 16 July didn't exist... 
[08:39] <Treenaks> robitaille: maybe not this year... :)
[08:43] <robitaille> the next Tuesday July 16 is in 2013.  Quite a long time between Tech Board meetings.
[08:47] <Treenaks> well, there's the 5-year support for 6.04 8)
[08:52] <robitaille> added date of next Doc Team meeting in 2 weeks.