[12:09] <mdke> hi all
[12:09] <kbrooks> hi mdke 
[12:09] <kbrooks> 'all questions are welcome'? huh?
[12:09] <Burgundavia> salut
[12:09] <mdke> kbrooks, ?
[12:10] <mdke> hey corey
[12:10] <mdke> how's it going?
[12:10] <Burgundavia> not bad
[12:10] <Burgundavia> nun is starting to come around
[12:11] <mdke> Burgundavia, the other day when I spoke to Mez he told me that the intention of the guide was not to write new documentation at all, but to provide links to existing documentation on the wiki. He said that perhaps people had misunderstood that and he would sort it out at their next meeting
[12:11] <Burgundavia> cool
[12:11] <Burgundavia> and mez already killed one of their "docs"
[12:12] <mdke> yes
[12:12] <mdke> he suggested one of us attend the meeting too
[12:12] <Burgundavia> I am going to be at the meeting, baring crazy life shit
[12:12] <mdke> good
[12:12] <Burgundavia> I had another crazy idea today
[12:13] <Burgundavia> basically a computer recipe card, that sits in the kitchen and uses wireless to communicate with the home pc
[12:13] <mdke> nice one
[12:13] <Burgundavia> thus cook chooses recipe on the home computer and beams it to the computer
[12:13] <mdke> it could run the gnome recipe app ;)
[12:13] <Burgundavia> thinking of extending grecipes
[12:14] <Burgundavia> as it can now run on windows
[12:14] <mdke> really?
[12:14] <Burgundavia> I think so
[12:14] <mdke> awesome
[12:14] <Burgundavia> figure I need a price point of about 100 dollars
[12:16] <Burgundavia> would like a touchscreen, but don't know if that is doable
[12:16] <mdke> its a lovely idea
[12:17] <Burgundavia> think it would sell?
[12:17] <mdke> if I had the money I'd back it
[12:18] <Burgundavia> hmm, hdb might be interested
[12:18] <Burgundavia> as it would run micro-ubuntu inside
[12:18] <Burgundavia> hbd, rather
[12:19] <mdke> yeah possibly
[12:19] <mdke> do you have the expertise to make it?
[12:19] <Burgundavia> I can do the sales
[12:19] <Burgundavia> need to hire some people to do the actual engineering
[12:21] <mdke> kbrooks, what's up man?
[12:22] <Burgundavia> in other news, I have finally subscribed to planetkde.org, to see what the other side is thinking
[12:23] <mdke> heh
[12:23] <mdke> dark side eh
[12:24] <Burgundavia> no, the dark side is MS
[12:24] <Burgundavia> the other side is DKE
[12:24] <mdke> ;)
[12:29] <mdke> i need to get my gnump3d server working again
[12:32] <Burgundavia> I really don't understand people who use non-gettext translation stuff
[12:32] <Burgundavia> why??
[12:32] <JanC> "the other side" is a biker's PUB in Torhout, Belgium  :)
[12:34] <Burgundavia> people claim that gettext is "limited"
[12:34] <Burgundavia> is this true?
[12:34] <JanC> yes, but most of the alternatives are limited too
[12:34] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:35] <Burgundavia> are there plans to extend gettext?
[12:35] <JanC> that won't be easy in some cases
[12:35] <Burgundavia> Nikerabbit Burgundavia: it's grammar support is limited to plurals
[12:36] <JanC> one potential problem I know is where the original language (mostly English) has a word/sentence that has to be translated in 2 or more ways in other languages
[12:36] <Burgundavia> ouch
[12:37] <Burgundavia> any translation is not easy
[12:38] <JanC> and other reasons to not use gettext are legacy systems of cource
[12:38] <JanC> of course
[12:38] <Burgundavia> this is not a legacy system we are talking about
[12:39] <JanC> like OOo
[12:39] <Burgundavia> mozilla rejected gettext as well
[12:39] <JanC> yeah
[12:40] <JanC> they use a more or less SGML/XML-specific format
[12:40] <kbrooks> mdke, hanging out 
[12:40] <Burgundavia> what advantage does that bring?
[12:40] <mdke> kbrooks, what did you mean by " [23:09]  < kbrooks> 'all questions are welcome'? huh?
[12:40] <JanC> probably because their UI is written in XML ?
[12:41] <JanC> the XML parsers do the translation
[12:41] <Burgundavia> are there technical advantages of the mozilla system of the gettext one
[12:41] <Burgundavia> ?
[12:41] <JanC> probably only in their specific case
[12:42] <JanC> their translations use DTDs to define XML entities
[12:43] <JanC> similar to &amp; --> "&" symbol
[12:43] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:43] <Burgundavia> I really don't understand translation
[12:43] <Burgundavia> probably because I have never done it, being a mostly-mono lingual english Canuck
[12:44] <JanC> :)
[12:44] <JanC> I have done some English -> Dutch and one French -> Dutch translations
[12:45] <JanC> and I'm on some translation mailing lists
[12:46] <Burgundavia> ludde Burgundavia: gettext is not powerful enough for openttd
[12:46] <Burgundavia> ludde Burgundavia: it has no support for genders, cases, recursive strings or any of the other things openttd uses
[12:49] <JanC> that seems like they have rather special needs, but it's a good example that gettext can't be used everywhere...
[12:50] <Burgundavia> a game
[12:50] <JanC> or it would probably involve more work using gettext instead of their own system
[01:01] <kbrooks> mdke, /topic
[01:02] <mdke> kbrooks, yeah i see it. Did you have a question?
[01:13] <Burgundavia> anybody here setup a synaptics touchpad?
[01:13] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SynapticsTouchpadHowto this page needs some help
[01:54] <rob^> hey, did anyone know what Mez wanted?
[02:00] <rob^> mgalvin ping
[02:12] <mgalvin> rob^, pong
[02:12] <rob^> hey, just an idea I had for the faq guide, I was thinking of making it use Synaptic instead of all the apt-get commands
[02:12] <rob^> might be a bit of work though
[02:13] <mgalvin> it would be a bit of work plus the users would have to search for each package in order to select and install
[02:13] <mdke> i would say that is a really important idea
[02:14] <rob^> mgalvin, I could include an explination at the start of the faq explaining how to use Synaptic and apt-get
[02:14] <mgalvin> although it would be a bit more gental for new users who are not comfortable on the cli
[02:14] <mgalvin> true
[02:14] <mgalvin> its a good idea
[02:14] <rob^> cool, I'm glad you think so too
[02:15] <mdke> i think its essential
[02:15] <mgalvin> hmm should we include instructions for both or would that be over kill
[02:15] <rob^> I'll do some work and submit a patch later
[02:15] <rob^> I think just a short thing on apt-get explaining that if they want to use it, just take the package names and plug them into an apt-get install blah
[02:16] <mgalvin> good point, go for it
[02:16] <rob^> :)
[02:16] <rob^> I will
[02:16] <mgalvin> :)
[02:18] <mdke> nice one
[02:30] <rob^> are there any #ubuntu ops around?
[02:32] <mdke> --> bed
[02:32] <rob^> nah its ok
[02:32] <rob^> some knob printing out ascii art in there
[02:40] <kbrooks> the ops know
[02:40] <rob^> yeah
[02:40] <rob^> that was 10 minutes ago
[04:39] <rob^> whats the literal expression for >
[04:50] <mgalvin> rob^, &gt;
[04:51] <mgalvin> hi jsgotangco
[04:51] <jsgotangco> hey
[04:51] <jsgotangco> hows it going
[04:52] <mgalvin> good, yourself?
[04:53] <jsgotangco> oh just enjoying a lazy sunday morning heh
[04:53] <jsgotangco> im looking at the online classifieds
[05:01] <rob^> mgalvin, thanks
[06:10] <mgalvin> rob^, np
[06:10] <mgalvin> g'night all
[07:45] <rob^> KABOOM!
[09:47] <Burgundavia> create a CategoryLaptop on the wiki?
[09:51] <robitaille> Burgundavia: yeah...that's a good idea.  There are quite a few laptop pages there, and it's bound to increase with the emphasis over laptops nowadays
[09:51] <Burgundavia> ok
[09:51] <Burgundavia> I have been flooding some peoples inboxes
[09:51] <Burgundavia> seen that robitaille ?
[09:52] <robitaille> about your MOTU pages?  yeah, quite a few a changes there tonight from you
[09:53] <Burgundavia> most of my 10,000 edits on wikipedia are cleanup edits
[09:55] <robitaille> I get all the wiki changes in a email folder, then I quickly scan them from time to time to pick the interesting ones.  It's a good way to have a feel of what's going on, and which topics are active
[09:55] <Burgundavia> thinking of creating a central page for laptops
[09:55] <Burgundavia> called laptop support
[09:56] <robitaille> by the way, I have to reply to your blog entry at one point (probably not tonight; it's getting late).   I like my console and my xterms :)
[09:56] <Burgundavia> consoles are fine
[09:56] <Burgundavia> I and Aunt Tillie don't want to have to use them
[09:57] <Burgundavia> I also find the CLI to be quite powerful
[09:58] <robitaille> I personally find the GUI to, more often than not, get in my way of doing things on a computer. 
[09:59] <Burgundavia> I like pretty desktops
[09:59] <Burgundavia> that is why I hate KDE/older DE's
[09:59] <Burgundavia> and windows
[09:59] <Burgundavia> I don't find them pretty
[10:00] <Burgundavia> those icons are great, but they waste a lot of vertical space
[10:00] <Burgundavia> observe --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingSpec
[10:01] <robitaille> do you read Wired magazine?  There was an Apple ad on page 2-3 showing their Dashboard...it looks gorgeous; at least compared to the usual XP we see in many ads.
[10:01] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:01] <Burgundavia> beagle/blam/nm-applet take up too much space on my notification are
[10:01] <Burgundavia> aa
[10:02] <Burgundavia> as they take up extra blank space
[10:02] <robitaille> LaptopTestingSpec
[10:02] <robitaille> LaptopTestingSpec, is that part of the LaptopTesting Team thinggy?
[10:02] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:03] <robitaille> I wonder when it's will get going...unless it has already?
[10:07] <Burgundavia> CategoryLaptop or CategoryLaptops ?
[10:08] <robitaille> CategoryLaptops... but I'm french...english language questions are not my department :)
[10:08] <Burgundavia> hmm
[10:08] <Burgundavia> need to find an english speaker
[10:08] <rob^> ?
[10:09] <Burgundavia> see above
[10:10] <Burgundavia> CategoryLaptop or CategoryLaptops ?
[10:10] <rob^> laptop
[10:11] <rob^> but they are commonly refered to as a notebook nowdays
[10:12] <robitaille> in french,  often they are called "portable".  When I make the mistake in english, people look at me strangely :)
[10:13] <rob^> :)
[10:15] <Burgundavia> there are a lot of useless pages on the wiki
[10:15] <Burgundavia> hmm
[10:15] <Burgundavia> I am thinking of changing all those categories
[10:16] <Burgundavia> splitting it to LaptopSupport and LaptopTesting
[10:16] <Burgundavia> what do you think?
[10:17] <robitaille> Why? LaptopSupport and LaptopTesting could fit both in one Laptop category.  
[10:18] <Burgundavia> but they category to 2 different sets of users
[10:18] <Burgundavia> those who want to see what works, and those who wish to work on getting it working
[10:19] <robitaille> and some pages will fit in both categories.  personally I think that's getting to be too fine of a separation between the two.  It's easier to keep them into one.
[10:19] <Burgundavia> ok
[10:19] <Burgundavia> ok
[10:20] <Burgundavia> I am going to get some of the misnamed stuff killed though
[10:20] <Burgundavia> you probably saw the posts
[10:21] <robitaille> sort of...my email is up and down tonight while I migrating to mutt-ng at home after finally managing to compile it with the options I wanted.
[10:24] <Burgundavia> add wifi to categorylaptop ?
[10:28] <robitaille> no sure.
[10:28] <robitaille> s/no/not
[10:28] <Burgundavia> already done
[10:29] <robitaille> but leaning toward yes :)
[10:29] <Burgundavia> most wifi users are currently laptop users
[10:30] <Burgundavia> we need a wiki work day
[10:33] <robitaille> tha'ts a good idea.  Don't plan it during the week I'll be on the beach :)
[10:33] <Burgundavia> due to locking we just divide into groups
[10:33] <Burgundavia> work on seperate areas
[10:34] <robitaille> in many ways, that's the point of an official Wiki teams, with priority given on some aspect of the wiki during some period of times.
[10:34] <robitaille> I have to go to bed soon... good night.
[10:44] <venda> that sucks, if you have sunjava installed and then apt-get ant, it installs gcj and wipes out your install of sun java
[10:44] <venda> who the $#@^&% are they do do that
[11:02] <venda> I thought sun-j2re1.5 was in multiverse
[11:16] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:16] <Burgundavia> that is going to suck in breezy
[11:16] <venda> why can't I find it?
[11:16] <venda> was it taken out?
[11:17] <venda> gcj sucks socks man
[11:17] <Burgundavia> jre was was only in the hoary-extras
[11:17] <Burgundavia> and one of the backports servers is currently down
[11:17] <venda> most java apps dont run on it, can't even start em
[11:17] <venda> I dont have backports
[11:17] <venda> no will use them
[11:18] <venda> You know this respository stuff is all nice when its working
[11:18] <venda> but if they go down you're %$#ed
[11:19] <venda> and you are at the mercy of whatever they do in that repos :-(
[11:21] <venda> what ubuntu needs is what SuSE has
[11:22] <venda> you can have multiple java installed
[11:22] <venda> then just do
[11:22] <venda> setjava {version}
[11:22] <venda> SuSEconfig
[11:23] <venda> and walla swapped between java versions
[11:23] <venda> SuSE still rocks better than Ubuntu in these types of places
[11:23] <Burgundavia> debian and their policy on stuff being DFSG-free meant that some stuff has been excluded
[11:24] <Burgundavia> and thus elegant solutions like that have not been developed
[11:24] <venda> exactly, which raises the question, is that what users want?
[11:24] <Burgundavia> in the end, yes
[11:25] <venda> no, I don't agree that users only want DFSG-free
[11:25] <venda> they want simplicity that works
[11:25] <Burgundavia> yes, to a certain extent
[11:25] <Burgundavia> but their insistence on DFSG-free has moved a lot of people
[11:26] <venda> it's only the religious hard core that are stuck on that
[11:26] <venda> I think this is one of the downsides of developing on Debian
[11:26] <Burgundavia> debian was probably quite important is the freeing of QT
[11:27] <venda> Distro's like Fedora and SuSE can do these things for their users
[11:27] <Burgundavia> fedora is crap
[11:27] <Burgundavia> there is a lot of things that need fixing that can be done within DFSG-fre
[11:27] <Burgundavia> like better laptop support
[11:27] <venda> that is irrelevant
[11:27] <venda> they can be fixed
[11:27] <Burgundavia> right
[11:28] <Burgundavia> and why is Ubuntu eclipsing just about every other distro out there, and still being mostly true to the DFSG?
[11:28] <venda> the perspective that Fedora is crap is a personal point-of-view
[11:28] <Burgundavia> fedora is a testbed
[11:28] <Burgundavia> and nothing more
[11:29] <venda> again a personal point of view. Linux in general is one big testbed
[11:29] <venda> we all are the testers
[11:29] <Burgundavia> then so is windows
[11:29] <venda> not treally
[11:29] <venda> we all test linux and patch its problems
[11:30] <venda> ms does not do that
[11:30] <Burgundavia> yes, but the problems get fixed
[11:30] <Burgundavia> ms doesn;t fix them
[11:30] <venda> yes that's why I say part of linux is that it is a testbed
[11:31] <venda> its why Linux becomes a better OS in long run
[11:31] <Burgundavia> but if the same problem exists in windows and linux, I would bet a small fortune it would be fixed in linux sooner
[11:31] <venda> yes, but we're not debating linux vs. windows
[11:32] <Burgundavia> DFSG-free is quite important to users, even though they may not know it
[11:32] <venda> I am just saying that distros such as SuSE and Fedora have more freedom to do things
[11:32] <Burgundavia> the bug, DFSG-nonfree manifests itself in many ways
[11:32] <Burgundavia> such as with skype and other non-free crap
[11:32] <venda> Sure, but users want these things
[11:32] <Burgundavia> no
[11:32] <venda> and generally endup installing it
[11:33] <Burgundavia> users want a system that is well integrated
[11:33] <venda> exactly
[11:33] <Burgundavia> free apps are much better integrated than non-free
[11:33] <venda> but integration has nothing to do with DSFG-free
[11:33] <Burgundavia> as linus says "if it is not in the tree, we don't care"
[11:33] <venda> hmm, yeah but he is a bit of a tyrant
[11:33] <Burgundavia> in other words, if our changes broke your non-free app, sorry, but your problem
[11:34] <Burgundavia> the other way is the ms way
[11:34] <Burgundavia> which involves leaving all kinds of legacy crap behind, because some app somewhere may need it
[11:34] <venda> so why then do so many people install non-free stuff if they dont want it?
[11:34] <Burgundavia> they want the funcationality
[11:34] <venda> look at our debate with FAQGuide and backports
[11:35] <venda> yes, but if that functionality is not avialable free, then I think a distro needs to be flexible
[11:35] <Burgundavia> mostly the non-free stuff people install is w32codecs
[11:35] <venda> exactly
[11:35] <venda> and skype
[11:35] <Burgundavia> and due to patent issues, no company can commit money to getting free versions working
[11:35] <venda> there are a few places like this
[11:36] <Burgundavia> once patent issues are truly dead in europe, then companies can start funding this
[11:36] <venda> sure, but in the interim?
[11:36] <venda> one one hand being hardline is good from a longterm perspective, but really not good for adoption rate now
[11:37] <venda> I dunno, I think middle ground is better
[11:37] <Burgundavia> kind of the chicken and the egg
[11:37] <venda> help non-free to understand the model
[11:38] <Burgundavia> there has been no work on a (l)gpl flash implemenation because a non-free exists
[11:38] <venda> don't exclude it based on radical doctrine
[11:38] <Burgundavia> in fact, the non-free was released to kill the free one
[11:38] <venda> well the none free is better :-)
[11:38] <Burgundavia> because nobody ships the free one
[11:38] <venda> it works
[11:38] <Burgundavia> and thus is gets no mindshare
[11:38] <Burgundavia> and no developers
[11:38] <venda> that what users want now
[11:39] <venda> users dont care about the free agument now, they want it to work now
[11:39] <venda> and they want it to work very well
[11:39] <venda> the non free flash works very well
[11:40] <venda> and sun java is better than gcj
[11:40] <venda> I cant run gcj
[11:40] <venda> my apps dont support it
[11:40] <Burgundavia> I suspect once that we get the gcj stuff into breezy, the quality will increase dramatically
[11:40] <venda> so
[11:40] <Burgundavia> as more users mean more testers and possibly more develoers
[11:41] <venda> if I need to instal ant, I must manually do it and that will result in my sun java breaking
[11:41] <venda> manually do it or
[11:41] <venda> not good
[11:41] <venda> here is a user perspective
[11:41] <venda> I need sunjava
[11:42] <venda> but if I install ant my sunjava is replaced by gcj, and my apps dont work
[11:42] <venda> that sucks
[11:42] <Burgundavia> then file a bug about it
[11:43] <venda> the problem is in the symlinks
[11:43] <venda> when you install gcj
[11:43] <venda> /usr/java/jre1.5.0_01/bin/java /usr/bin/java
[11:43] <venda> /usr/java/jre1.5.0_01/bin/java_vm /usr/bin/java_vm
[11:43] <venda> it overwrites the above
[11:43] <venda> so if I want both I must now create scripts to do it
[11:44] <Burgundavia> then file a bug, irc != bugzilla
[11:44] <venda> seems to me that installaion of gcj should test java -version before installation and install scripts for switching between java versions
[11:45] <venda> like to discuss it first :-)
[11:45] <Burgundavia> venda, I can do nothing about it. I understand you, but file a bug about it
[11:45] <Burgundavia> s/discuss/bitch
[11:46] <venda> bye
[11:47] <Burgundavia> cya
[04:12] <venda> can anyone define for me what the "enterprise edition" of Ubuntu is?
[04:53] <sivang> venda: there's an enterprise edition?
[04:53] <venda> seems that is a dig at RH
[04:53] <venda> there is a standard support edition and an extended support edition
[07:48] <kbrooks> hi
[08:14] <kbrooks> ok then
[08:14] <kbrooks> i'd like to talk....
[08:14] <venda> talk
[08:14] <venda> what's on your mind?
[08:16] <kbrooks> hmm
[08:17] <kbrooks> I think the sound situation in Ubuntu is annoying to newbies to Ubuntu.
[08:21] <venda> how's that?
[08:21] <venda> is your sound not working?
[08:22] <kbrooks> no
[08:23] <kbrooks> i read #ubuntu
[08:23] <kbrooks> someone there.....
[08:23] <kbrooks> had problems with sound
[08:23] <venda> sorry I am not tuned to #ubuntu
[08:23] <venda> so you wil have to explain why
[08:23] <kbrooks> lol
[10:14] <kbrooks> mdke, so.....
[10:14] <kbrooks> wassup
[11:45] <mdke> kbrooks, not much, yourself?
[11:57] <kbrooks> nm