[01:08] <kafeine> hello
[01:08] <Nafallo> morning :-)
[01:14] <kafeine> mm
[01:15] <kafeine> for the icon breezy thingie
[01:15] <kafeine> is there a list somewhere with the icons that arent yet done
[01:15] <kafeine> aaaand where can i see some icons which are already in this to-be set
[01:15] <kafeine> so i could make them more.. consistent?
[01:18] <Nafallo> http://andy.fitzsimon.com.au/humility-icons.tar.bz2
[01:18] <Nafallo> this is what's being worked on for breezy :-)
[01:19] <kafeine> thank you:)
[01:23] <Nafallo> no problem :-)
[02:00] <efbie> I made some new icons (for a few more info see mailing-list) :: http://www.mentalwarp.com/~fred/divers/humility-fred-contrib.zip
[11:43] <tvoss> Hi all, is there already a package available for the Humility-Icon-Theme
[11:45] <ogra_> tvoss, yes, i got it locally....
[11:46] <tvoss> ogra_ can you send by mail to t.voss"at"onlinehome.de
[11:46] <ogra_> i'll upload it today, jst apt-get it then ;)
[11:47] <tvoss> ogra_ hoary or breezy?
[11:47] <ogra_> breezy... but for a icontheme that doesnt matter
[11:47] <ogra_> they are interchangeable
[11:49] <Nafallo> http://andy.fitzsimon.com.au/humility-icons.tar.bz2
[11:49] <Nafallo> or get them there ^ ;-)
[11:50] <ogra_> Nafallo, thats not a package ;)
[11:51] <Nafallo> ogra_: depends on your definition of package :-)
[11:52] <ogra_> mine has a .deb in the end :)
[11:52] <Nafallo> :-)
[11:52] <ogra_> (my definition as well as my package ;))
[11:53] <RQ> ;)
[11:54] <RQ> it's useless as long as X doesn't work, anyways :D
[11:55] <RQ> ogra_, what will the name of the package be?
[11:55] <ogra_> humility-icon-theme ?
[11:55] <RQ> great :)
[11:56] <RQ> i hope it will remain like that.
[11:57] <ogra_> i'm pondering if i should put a gnome- in fromt... 
[11:57] <RQ> btw are you guys responsible for the colour themes in Ubuntu?
[11:57] <ogra_> front even
[11:57] <ogra_> not yet
[11:57] <RQ> hmm... maybe not... if it works with KDE too.
[11:57] <RQ> hmm
[11:57] <ogra_> but the colors will be a responsibility of the art team
[11:58] <RQ> I have a sugestion - don't keep the name of the package if you change it quite radically
[11:58] <RQ> for example, i liked the soft brown colours in Warthy much more then those in Hoary
[11:59] <RQ> so it wasn't very pleasing to find out that I can only have one of these themes at a time.
[12:00] <RQ> so I'd suggest that you name them distinctively so that the user could have both of them installed
[12:01] <RQ> (that's for the future, of course)
[01:57] <tvoss> wrt humility icon theme: An icon for a samba share is missing
[02:16] <RQ> ogra, so you've added "gnome-"..
[02:16] <ogra> yep, after talking to our KDE maintainer
[02:17] <ogra> KDE will need a) repackaging anyway b) wont use them
[02:18] <RQ> hm
[02:18] <RQ> i thought there's a common freedesktop format now :|
[02:18] <ogra> KDE uses other names for the icons, so they all will have to be renamed 
[02:18] <RQ> weird..
[02:18] <ogra> RQ, gnome uses gnome-fs-home.svg for example :)
[02:19] <RQ> ywah
[02:19] <ogra> nearly all icons have a prefix
[02:19] <RQ> but as i said - i thought they've agreed on that fd.org standard
[02:20] <ogra> sure... but if you look at KDE you'll find that it stores setings and theme data in .desktop files which is as wrong as having a gone- prefix on icons... i guess there is still a way to go for both
[02:20] <ogra> s/gone-/gnome-
[02:21] <RQ> yeah, well...
[02:22] <RQ> i wonder what that standard specifies then..
[02:22] <ogra> i havent read it... i'm only the packaging bitch here :) *shrug*
[02:24] <Nafallo> ogra: almost entirely true ;-)
[02:24] <ogra> heh
[02:25] <Nafallo> ogra: care to review and upload libdc0 btw? it's on universeunmetdeps
 ;-)
[07:29] <Nafallo> gothcat: welcome :-)
[07:29] <gothcat> hi every one :)
[07:29] <lukacu> hi
[07:32] <ogra> hey gothcat 
[07:37] <gothcat> ogra: hi :)
[07:39] <Nafallo> ogra: she've seen pictures of you ;-)
[07:39] <ogra> hehe
[07:39] <ogra> the nice ones i hope :)
[07:42] <Nafallo> mostly from mataro and udu :-)
[07:45] <ogra> ah..
[08:27] <mpathy> hi
[08:36] <lukacu> hi :)
[08:39] <kafeine> hello :D
[08:52] <gothcat> hi!
[09:26] <kafeine> 
[09:27] <kafeine> err
[09:27] <kafeine> that was mm
[09:27] <kafeine> anyway
[09:27] <kafeine> anyone with an opinion on the wiki vs. groupware thing which was the main conversation on the mailing list?
[09:28] <ogra> yes
[09:29] <Nafallo> yes
[09:30] <efbie> IMHO the wiki is there and working, we should work with what we have now, and focus on producing artwork rather than discussing for years on a non-issue. If it really become impossible with the wiki, then we could look for an alternative...
[09:30] <ogra> but since i'm a maintainer and involved in X diffeent ubuntu teams that all do their work n the wiki i'm vers biased
[09:30] <ogra> very even
[09:31] <ogra> i agree with jane that we need something better to put the artwork stuff up, but i would perfer to work with this group like with every other in ubuntu
[09:31] <Nafallo> I don't actually think this team will want to diverge to much from the rest of the community. that will only lead to isolation.
[09:33] <kafeine> then again, i think that artists in the common case aren't as used to wiki-based work as developers are, for example
[09:33] <ogra> additionally i know how overworked our administrators are and that nobody wants to be admin of php stuff in the team, so it would have to be on a vserver that is maintained by us
[09:33] <Nafallo> well, I'm not used to the wiki yet. that doesn't stop me from using it.
[09:33] <Nafallo> ogra++
[09:34] <efbie> Nafallo++ :)
[09:34] <kafeine> hm
[09:35] <Nafallo> I believe jane's mail told what ogra and I would love to see anyway :-). right ogra?
[09:35] <ogra> likely :) 
[09:36] <ogra> since jane is my boss and holds the whip :)
[09:36] <Nafallo> hehe
[09:36] <kafeine> :))
[09:37] <ogra> no, seriously... my opiion is the above, but i know that its technically possible to have a vserver and run our own stuff... so lets see how a voting evolves :)
[09:37] <kafeine> my stance is that it will be lot more easier to use some tool that is exclusively made for such kind of teamwork and project leading
[09:38] <Nafallo> kafeine: and that is?
[09:38] <kafeine> and proper, anyway
[09:39] <kafeine> mm, phpgroupware or something like it
[09:39] <kafeine> or, as it was proposed, basecamp
[09:39] <Nafallo> well, that depends. the wiki would work for projectgoals, calendar, information and those kind of things.
[09:39] <Nafallo> basecamp wasn't F/OSS
[09:40] <ogra> i think what we need is a good revision control system to coordinate the collaborative artwork stuff (iconsets etc) and a good presentation platform (gallery, the art.gnome.org software etc) and coordinatig work should be done like in all other areas of ubuntu (IRC, wiki, mailinglist)
[09:41] <ogra> kafeine, whats the usecase of phpgroupware ? what do you need a calendar for ?
[09:41] <Nafallo> launchpad has personal calendars now. isn't that enough?
[09:41] <ogra> i really dont see the need for such stuff... as long as we are communicative
[09:42] <Nafallo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar suffice for most things that will need a calendar now.
[09:43] <Nafallo> plus the ical version ofcourse :-)
[09:43] <kafeine> my own concern is the visual orientation of this team
[09:43] <kafeine> only*
[09:43] <ogra> hmm, but does that need a groupware ?
[09:44] <kafeine> and the fact that the people who work with the visual arts, are, well, used to visual tools
[09:44] <Nafallo> and a calendar?
[09:44] <kafeine> not necesarilly, no
[09:44] <kafeine> and i certainly havent really said anything about no calendar
[09:44] <kafeine> but
[09:44] <ogra> hats the main usecase of phpgroupware, sharig calendars
[09:44] <ogra> thats even
[09:45] <kafeine> in those systems, most entries are presented in a much more intuitive way
[09:45] <kafeine> and show up where you expect them to be
[09:45] <kafeine> as projects
[09:45] <kafeine> people who work on projects
[09:45] <kafeine> etc
[09:45] <ogra> hmm, depends how you define intuitive...
[09:46] <Nafallo> well, the wiki have things were you told them to be :-)
[09:46] <kafeine> i certainly dont define intuitive as located somewhere in a pile of text in a page that looks exactly as the last one
[09:46] <kafeine> but anyway, that's just me:)
[09:46] <kafeine> i'll work with anything
[09:46] <Nafallo> and I love to find things were I left them :-)
[09:47] <ogra> i will go with the group decision.... :)
[09:47] <kafeine> same here
[09:47] <kafeine> mm
[09:47] <kafeine> anyway, can someone put up a list with all the icons that need to be done
[09:48] <kafeine> and all the icons that are done already, propositions for icons, etc
[09:48] <kafeine> and posting some guidelines for the promo materials (posters, flyers, stickers) in near time would be nice, too
[09:48] <ogra> i think all mime types, all apps and folders wer the desired target
[09:49] <Nafallo> ogra: all apps in main and restricted I hope you mean?
[09:49] <ogra> i guess so
[09:50] <ogra> we'll need at least 16x16, 22x22, 24x24 and 48x48 bitmap versions and scalable svg versions...
[09:50] <efbie> that's a work of titans
[09:51] <ogra> and beware, you cant just scale down the svg and make a bitmap of it.... bitmaps need to be redone manually to work out the details
[09:51] <Nafallo> when was the meeting again?
[09:51] <ogra> efbie, AndyFitz has already done a lot
[09:52] <ogra> and yes, its a hell lot of work
[09:52] <efbie> ogra: yes i know, :) i did a bunch of icons too
[09:52] <efbie> but retouching pixel by pixel will be a _Huge_ work
[09:53] <ogra> yep
[09:53] <efbie> some things can be automated
[09:53] <ogra> but we want a awesome iconset, dont we ?
[09:53] <efbie> hehe
[09:53] <ogra> in my opinion it should impress the world as ubuntu itself does ;)
[09:54] <efbie> yep
[09:54] <efbie> it should make mac peope jealous
[09:54] <ogra> hehe
[09:54] <kafeine> hard job:D
[09:54] <ogra> yep
[09:54] <efbie> but not impossible
[09:55] <ogra> and its not only icons :)
[09:55] <kafeine> what a relief:D
[09:55] <ogra> splash, wallpaper etc
[09:56] <efbie> the hard thing is to make beautiful artwork that remains "professional"
[09:57] <efbie> gnome defaults look professional, but isn't that beautiful
[09:58] <ogra> have you seen what jimmac does ? a quality like that would be the greatest... 
[09:59] <ogra> he did the gnome default years back... but does also custom sets for ximian/novell
[09:59] <efbie> yes it's really nice
[10:00] <ogra> and the custom sets *are* beautiful :)
[10:03] <kafeine> mm
[10:04] <kafeine> we need some more info on the various work that is to be done posted on the wiki
[10:04] <kafeine> cause i have no experience with icon making and i'm all useless right now
[10:05] <efbie> yep.
[10:05] <efbie> I would especially like to have artistical guidelines from Andy
[10:07] <ogra> lets poke him if australia wakes up ;)
[10:08] <ogra> also keep in mind that sabdfl can overrule everything in ubuntu ;) so if he doesnt like it it might get dropped...
[10:08] <efbie> yep
[10:09] <efbie> it scares me a little
[10:09] <efbie> could we ask him an early review ?
[10:09] <ogra> (we had a really awful splashscreen short before the hoary release...he made the current one and dropped the ugly one...was a good decision)
[10:09] <mpathy> oh i am late.. I have a opinion too *gg*
[10:10] <ogra> efbie, absolutely... he will want it... to see where it goes
[10:10] <Nafallo> ogra: spatial was a bad though ;-)
[10:10] <ogra> Nafallo, he knows that ;)
[10:10] <Nafallo> ogra: good :-)
[10:10] <Nafallo> well, shower for me and gothcat. bbl
[10:11] <kafeine> mpathy, freedom of speech is here
[10:11] <efbie> as i must reinstall my system, do you think that it's a good idea to use breezy ?
[10:11] <mpathy> kafeine: ..but I first have to read all the lines *g*
[10:12] <kafeine> efbie, not really
[10:12] <efbie> ok
[10:12] <ogra> efbie, probably in a week or two.... X is currently a PITA
[10:13] <efbie> k
[10:13] <mpathy> whats with this launchpad? its an ubuntu thing and have some nice tools.. but efbie you are right, its all secondary!
[10:15] <ogra> mpathy, launchpad is for collaborative: translating, code development bugtracking beyond distro borders and community management... i dont think there is something usable for artwork development (except management stuff probably)
[10:16] <ogra> its "sourceforge-next-generation" :)
[10:17] <efbie> what's lacking in the wiki is something to visualize thing
[10:17] <mpathy> ogra: oh okay.. i looked over it only short time.. my problem with the wiki at ubuntu is, that its relatively unstructured.. 
[10:18] <ogra> mpathy, its up to us to build a structure below our site....
[10:18] <mpathy> efbie: right! combined with some sort of upload area!?
[10:19] <ogra> mpathy, and i think some people of the docteam would disagree about the "unstructured" (i agree with you btw ;) )
[10:21] <mpathy> ogra: thx ;o) Its only because I want to keep the track, dont lost any information.. as long its all in the mailing list, its okay.. so because of that a central ubuntu-artwork news page would be good.
[10:21] <efbie> if there is a structure in the wiki it is far from being obvious...
[10:21] <ogra> heh
[10:21] <ogra> the docteam is small :)
[10:22] <ogra> the wiki is big....
[10:22] <mpathy> Wikipedia is even bigger and it works *gg*
[10:22] <mpathy> okay thats another thing
[10:22] <ogra> mpathy, probably there are moin plugins we could get for the news stuff...
[10:23] <mpathy> ogra: ehmm.. what wiki is the ubuntu wiki?
[10:23] <ogra> moin
[10:23] <mpathy> moin moin=
[10:23] <mpathy> oh okay
[10:23] <ogra> we had plone and zwiki before,
[11:05] <mpathy> sad that noone tries some of these nice ruby-based wikis :o)
[11:06] <ogra> *shudder* ruby *shudder*
[11:06] <ogra> :)
[11:07] <mpathy> ogra: hey! watch out ;)
[11:07] <ogra> hehe
[11:08] <mpathy> lets guess: you are more the perl-guy, and your editor is emacs.. :)
[11:08] <ogra> nope
[11:09] <ogra> i'm the multi guy (C, perl, python (!!) a lot more...) an my editor is vim ;)
[11:10] <mpathy> good editor choice.. :) ..but i never get good friend with C, perhaps the force isnt with me.. ;)
[11:10] <ogra> i was forced by ubuntu ;) 
[11:11] <ogra> didnt touch much C before ....
[11:13] <mpathy> apropos the force.. did you heard about "utnubu"? ..the empire strikes back *gg*
[11:14] <ogra> yeah, its a great thing
[11:14] <ogra> i was waiting for this quite some time already... so nobody cant blame us we wouldnt give back.... 
[11:15] <ogra> since i think its the job of the debian maintainers to grab our patches themselves...
[11:15] <mpathy> yes.. hope the padawan doesnt kill his master, like in star wars ;)
[11:15] <ogra> buit they always meant we'd have to send them every change we make
[11:15] <ogra> no, it wont... we never can manage this amount of packages....
[11:16] <ogra> ubuntu has far less maintainers...
[11:16] <mpathy> no i meant accidentally..
[11:16] <mpathy> :o)
[11:17] <ogra> that'd be very bad for us... we cant survive without debian....
[11:17] <ogra> only if the maintainers would switch over to us...
[11:17] <mpathy> because of the hype. but right now the most people think about ubuntu as the "desktop debian".. thats okay for me..
[11:18] <mpathy> many did
[11:18] <ogra> not for me... :)
[11:18] <ogra> its a perfect server OS as well...
[11:18] <ogra> the problem is to get this across to the people
[11:19] <ogra> since everybody is convinced ubuntu is only a desktop system
[11:19] <mpathy> should produce a bit more server oriented news! :)
[11:19] <ogra> yep, we're working on it ;)
[11:22] <mpathy> like "increased amount of BOFH excuses - fortunes" ;)
[11:23] <ogra> heh
[11:35] <mpathy> someone started working on these calendar images?
[11:37] <efbie> nope
[11:37] <ogra> not to my knowledge
[11:38] <plb> what about a metacity theme ;] 
[11:39] <ogra> +a
[11:39] <plb> heh
[11:43] <efbie> clearlooks is really nice, maybe a brown version would fit ?
[11:44] <mpathy> ll
[11:45] <mpathy> efbie: yes would be nice.. clearlooks is nice
[11:45] <mpathy> omg.. e17 is so awesome fast..
[11:47] <ogra> it took them 6 years to develop it... so this should be the least ....
[11:47] <mpathy> hope ubuntu will be the first who gets it into his packages ;)
[11:47] <ogra> sadly he made themself incompatible with the rest of the world, so you'll need to write a lot of apps for it...
[11:48] <ogra> and it really crappy unstable for now...
[11:48] <efbie> e17 looks like the future, but now
[11:48] <ogra> nothing to give to users
[11:49] <ogra> efbie, e17 looks like a nice proof of concept thingie...but with their development speed you'll see the first stable release in about 5 years
[11:49] <mpathy> yes its not even a beta.. but its amazing :)
[11:50] <ogra> sadly they work against freedesktop org... and they are no friends of it...
[11:51] <ogra> raster (the e17 dev) wrote a lengthy rant against freedesktop, QT and GTK last year....
[11:52] <efbie> and i thought that linux was all about interoperability....
[11:52] <ogra> ...not something that brings you many developers in to speed things up :(
[11:52] <efbie> lol
[11:53] <ogra> sure, you can run other apps on top... but its an additional ressource hog to have a WM that uses all its own stuff (libs etc)
[11:53] <mpathy> but they also have some good concepts.. and some not so good.. like most time..
[11:54] <ogra> nicer would have been if they had put these ideas and the work into gnome or kde to improve these
[11:54] <mpathy> the other apps feels like they run at same speed..
[11:54] <efbie> and those next gen things like cairo and luminocity, are these science-fiction, or are they likely to be in gnome before the next duke nukem ? 
[11:55] <ogra> cairo is already in breezy.. the breezy firefox already renders its fonts with it
[11:55] <mpathy> luminocity is not so different from the things that work even now on e17.. (as an non-programmers opinion *g*)
[11:56] <ogra> luminocity will be ready soon... and xgl looks promising
[11:56] <ogra> i saw demos of all of them at guadec this year
[11:56] <mpathy> but have a look anyway:
[11:56] <mpathy> http://livecd.debianitas.net/screenshots/prueba2.mpg
[11:57] <ogra> and they are all developed by paied people that spend much time on improving them
[11:57] <ogra> mpathy, i know the e17 movies :)
[11:58] <mpathy> ogra: but thats new! 1-3 days old from a new live cd with a good working e17
[11:59] <efbie> mpathy: looks quite nice :)
[12:01] <ogra> yep, it improved
[12:01] <mpathy> lot of progress in the last weeks/months..