=== kbrooks [~kbrooks@d235-165-223.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === otep [~otep@AP-203.167.31.177.sysads.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [~mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === HrdwrBoB [~matt@bob.is.teh.admin.at.vicnet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rwabel [~rwabel@gw.ptr-80-238-205-70.customer.ch.netstream.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:06] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MplayerInstallHowto [03:06] ugh that looks awful, I'm cleaning it up [03:23] are we mentioning w32codecs on the wiki or not? [03:23] i would say not i think [03:24] yeah that's what I though [03:49] i like that doc [03:49] what's up with it? [03:50] mdke: it's fixed now [03:50] i'll check out your changes [03:50] the content was fine, it just wasn't formatted very well [03:51] hmm [03:51] i preferred his sources.list to the AddingMultimediaRepositories one [03:51] backports isn't necessary for mplayer, which is in multiverse [03:52] backports isn't in there [03:52] or at least, it shouldn't be [03:52] it just has hoary-extras [03:52] well that is a backports archive [03:52] mplayer is still in ubuntu multiverse [03:53] true [03:53] i don't like the AddingMultimediaRepositories page [03:54] hoary-extras -- [03:54] should probably link to AddingRepositoriesHowto [03:54] that's my opinion yeah [03:55] the ideal conf file IMHO is at ExampleConffiles [03:55] MplayerInstallHowto is the only page on the wiki that links to AddingMultimediaRepositories :) [04:02] there [04:02] changed the link and fixed up the formatting a bit more [04:08] should we promote cedega? [04:08] certainly not promote it [04:09] but there's no reason not to tell people it exists [04:09] no idea about it [04:09] but people seem to use it and find it useful [04:10] -->bed [04:10] night [04:10] nice one on Mplayer HrdwrBoB [04:11] HrdwrBoB, nice to have you helping us. Add your name to WikiTeam? === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:14] s/Keeping your machine updated/Keeping Ubuntu Software Updated/ ? [04:15] i like machine [04:15] seems a little more noob friendl imho [04:15] i would say keeping your computer updated is more friendly [04:15] Keeping Ubuntu updated ? [04:16] btw maybe you two could get together with rob^ and hack out that spec, resolve any confusion [04:16] yes [04:16] prepare a spec with user audience too [04:16] like jeff did with the styleguide [04:17] my mom would understand better keeping software updated [04:17] also, if you cut out any power user stuff, let's cut and paste into the userguide if appropriate [04:17] shall I add who I think the guide should be targeted at on the top of the page [04:17] mdke, absolutely, that was the plan [04:17] Burgundavia, copy jeff's structure [04:17] to reference sections of the user guide for further info [04:17] mdke, the one in svn? [04:18] Burgundavia, on the wiki page [04:18] (the styleguide spec) [04:18] where? [04:18] erm [04:18] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuidePlan?highlight=%28styleguide%29 [04:18] StyleGuide i guess, not sure [04:19] yeah StyleGuide [04:19] geez [04:19] that is quite long [04:19] only the document plan section is what I was thinking of [04:20] 1-9 [04:22] done [04:22] I am wondering about playing games [04:23] maybe we should promote some simple games and move cedega to the users guide [04:24] lincity [04:24] freeciv [04:24] supertux [04:24] :) [04:24] ya [04:24] tuxracer [04:25] so the only games that are in the faq guide must come out of an Ubuntu repo [04:25] how does that sound for a principal? [04:25] s/principal/principle [04:25] not sure [04:26] best get your heads together with mgalvin and rob^ [04:26] --> bed [04:26] mgalvin is already here [04:26] rob^, ping [04:27] i would say stick with stuff in the repos [04:30] I like agreement [04:30] this faq guide is going to rock [04:31] rock on :) [04:32] tomorrow I will solicit opininion from the NUN people [04:45] wow...the wiki Java page is really simpler now :) I'm about to replace my IBM Java plugins by Sun's. [04:45] yes, the wiki is truly coming along [04:45] a some point I am going to cleanup bittorrent [04:45] as that doesn't promote our built-in bittorrent stuff [04:47] mdke: ok :) [04:47] robitaille, do you have comments on the FAQGuideReSpec [04:47] HrdwrBoB, nice work with the mplayer page, btw [04:48] cheers [04:48] Burgundavia: haven't had time to look at it yet; I'll take a look within the hour (after I put the kids to bed) [04:49] ok [04:49] Burgundavia: great it would be nice to hear their comments and suggestions (the NUN) [04:49] yes [04:50] as they are the ones that are going to be helping people when our docs fail [04:50] HrdwrBoB, you want to do something else? === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:51] mgalvin: nice spec [04:51] salut jsgotangco [04:51] salug [04:51] Burgundavia: yeah what needs going [04:51] er doing [04:52] HrdwrBoB, the FileCompression page should be reorg to be by file format [04:52] in alphabetical order [04:52] hmm, do it by extension or by name? [04:53] is a table of contents recommended [04:53] extension [04:53] absolutely [04:53] I've generally been putting them [04:53] in [04:53] make the title Firefox extensions (.xpi) [04:53] of something [04:54] I trust your judgement [04:54] cool [04:54] FAQGuideReSpec: should we promote ways of getting "live" help: IRC, mailing list? A "How to get help from the community" section? [04:54] robitaille, good idea [04:55] place at the end? [04:55] 2nd item? [04:56] near the top is probably better [04:56] added at the end [04:56] :) [04:56] 2nd item after updating? [04:57] sounds good. [04:57] done [04:58] robitaille, what do you think of "keeping your machine updated"? [04:58] think it should be software or Ubuntu? [04:59] Ubuntu. Sounds more friendly considering what Aunt Tilley knows [04:59] your Ubuntu or just Ubuntu? [04:59] your [04:59] jsgotangco: thnx, good job by Burgundavia too [05:00] mgalvin, my crazy idea. I just need people to buy into it [05:00] cause if nobody buys in, it is just a crazy idea [05:01] I am debating 3D acceleration [05:01] nah, I will keep it [05:01] I think 3D should go....a bit too technical. [05:01] 3D acceleration in Ubuntu? what for? [05:01] i think we need that [05:01] ok, it will die [05:01] hmm [05:01] Something about Gaim? Remember jdub 10x10 talk and girls who like IM? [05:01] er, um well on second thought [05:02] acceleration is usually a domain in games which is not our core compentency imo [05:02] yes [05:02] unless any of the game you are going to talk about need 3D acceleration? [05:02] it is to technical for our target audience [05:02] someone who wants 3D has more technical ability [05:03] robitaille: it would be quite a few, since you can count on your fingers native linux games that need acceleration [05:03] ie: they will actively go and look for more help [05:03] robitaille, we will just avoid it [05:03] possibly refer people to some other doc that discusses it so the brave noobs know where to look [05:03] good. I never play games under Ubuntu :) [05:03] in the playing games section we can mention it [05:03] heh, I do [05:03] and my 1997 graphic card doesn't do 3D anyway :) [05:04] I need another term like "Surfing the internet" [05:04] Travelling on the information superhighway? :) [05:04] that encompasses email, the internet and gaim [05:05] Using the Internet [05:05] but I changed the firefox section to be Surfing the Internet [05:08] ok latest up [05:08] brb i gotta start work [05:10] rofl --> IIIEars gentoo is the reason bayer sells aspirin [05:14] alright, the ReSpec has been spent to pass the parents test [05:14] s/spent/sent [05:15] its gone [05:15] huh? [05:15] rob^, ping [05:16] rob^, deleted it for some reason [05:16] its back, hmm [05:16] I just reverted it [05:16] k [05:16] that is what rob said --> Removing content as it is not applicable to the FAQ Guide yet [05:17] i saw that === mgalvin scratches head [05:17] no idea [05:17] he sounded annoyed that he had not been consulted [05:17] I thought I was pretty clear it was a work in progress [05:23] ok, that i odd [05:24] now it shows robert editing twice and me reverting twice [05:24] which I haven't done === Skywind [~Skywind@218.104.86.222] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:30] rob^, please stop reverting the page. Lets talk [05:35] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FileCompression [05:35] that's a lot better, still needs a littel bit of fixing [05:37] HrdwrBoB, cheers that looks great [05:37] what about swapping archive and non-archive formats? [05:38] I put nonarchive formats first because that way people might realise that it's not really an archive [05:39] and odds are on entry they will see what they want in the contents, and click straight to there [05:40] true [05:41] minor other quibble with the commandline stuff [05:41] I split it out to make it clear that it could be done by the gui [05:41] you might want to do that again [05:42] so make the command line usage under a next level header [05:42] I would put the commandline is a seperate section [05:42] so you would have 3 sections [05:42] non-archive, archive and command line [05:43] I'm not sure that would be more useful [05:44] the tar/targz/tarbz2 sections on the archive format thing effectively become irrelevant [05:44] not really [05:44] Burgundavia, we are still going to keep the faqguide profiled right [05:44] just that we are trying to promote the gui and a quick glance at the looks like the commandline is the only solution [05:45] mgalvin, absolutely [05:45] ok, just making sure [05:45] Burgundavia: hm.. perhaps a screenshot of archive manager and a bit about it would be better [05:45] might be, hmm [05:45] in the basic archives section, and rename that to 'Package Manager' [05:46] maybe just get rid of the command line stuff? [05:46] well if the target audience is mum and dad [05:46] then yeah, we should really lose it altogether [05:46] most of the wiki is [05:47] because if you know about the commandline, you probably know about man pages [05:47] mmmm based on my experience in #ubuntu I'd say possibly not :) [05:47] ok [05:47] I'll strip out most of the command line stuff in the indiviual sections [05:48] and put in a section on basic command like usage [05:48] line [05:48] ya, that is what I was thinking [05:48] rather than full examples etc [06:07] HrdwrBoB, what is your real name? [06:07] MatthewParslow [06:07] cheers [06:07] that's who's been editing all the pages :) [06:08] ya, just remembered that [06:08] had a bit of a bad day [06:09] I've added some screenshots to that page - they're not overly useful but I think they will make people feel good [06:09] cool [06:09] I just reworked GettingUbuntu [06:09] you might want to take a quick peer [06:10] If you have a 64 bit system, you need AMD64 install CD [06:10] that's not strictly true, and in many cases a 32 bit system is easier :) [06:11] Hey everyone [06:11] ok [06:11] salut thechitowncubs [06:11] hi thechitowncubs [06:12] mgalvin, mind if you respond to rob as well [06:12] as you have been doing work [06:13] HrdwrBoB, I really like the first screenshot [06:13] that makes it easy [06:13] yeah [06:13] I wish gnome would move the special actions farther up the menu [06:16] Burgundavia, i do not mind, please feel free to respond [06:17] mgalvin, no, I was asking if you would respond as well [06:17] what are tonights focus of labor? [06:17] bittorrent needs rewrite [06:17] to basically say that hoary and breezy just do it [06:17] how to set it up in warty [06:17] and advanced clients [06:18] I was just looking at that page :) [06:18] alright, i'll work on bt [06:18] cheers [06:19] Burgundavia, i did [06:19] mgalvin, thanks [06:19] np [06:19] did you see my response? [06:20] the one where you started the thread? [06:21] no b/c he didn't reply to that one, i replyed to Sec: Unclassified Ubuntu FAQ Guide changes [06:22] ok [06:22] thechitowncubs, what is your wikiname? [06:27] ok, time for bed, g'night guys, see y'all tomorrow [06:27] zzzZZZzzzZZZzzz [06:27] night [06:28] JohnLambrechts [06:28] cheers [06:30] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FileCompression [06:30] There, that's better [06:31] HrdwrBoB, that is great [06:33] There needs to be a basic terminal how to page [06:33] I've looked for one on several occasions, so I'm going to make one :) [06:33] yes [06:34] discuss histroy basically [06:34] and ctrl-r searching [06:34] I was thinking basic basics [06:34] how to open a terminal [06:34] getting around [06:34] oh, that basic [06:34] in many entries on wikis that are aimed at newbies [06:35] it says "open a terminal" [06:35] "run this in a termina" [06:35] but nowhere does it say what that is [06:35] or how to do it [06:35] hopefully, not as many as a few days ago [06:35] yeah [06:35] but for now, there's still quite a lot === Burgundavia 's personal goal goal is to kill all those references, if possible [06:36] but even where it's presented as an alternative [06:36] we want people to be able to learn about that if they want [06:36] should I create it called Terminal or TerminalHowto or what [06:36] TerminalHowto [06:48] right, home from work finally [06:49] cheers [06:49] hmm, matts not here [06:50] no he left about 20 minutes ago [06:50] ok [06:51] did you want to talk about the FAQGuideReSpec [06:51] well I need to talk to matt about it really [06:51] but regarding that [06:52] you do realise it started as an exact copy of ubuntuguide.org, right? [06:52] yes [06:52] I was there in Mataro when the initial work was done [06:52] hence, its not docbook friendly [06:53] thats is fine [06:53] and I dont apprciate you removing most of my changes to the spec either [06:53] I gave a reason, and we (the various people in this channel) agree with them [06:53] read the scrollback [06:53] we had a long discussion about it [06:54] yes, without the person who wrote it [06:54] wrote what? [06:55] you are basically telling me how to write it [06:55] not really [06:55] yes really [06:55] I pulled the latest source out of the cvs [06:55] and you dont contribute yourself [06:55] and went, "where do we go with this" [06:56] rob^, I just got my svn commit access back [06:56] right, how many times do I have to say "this is going to be changed" [06:56] rob^, I looked at the exisiting doc and I don't think it really works as an FAQ guide [06:56] we don't need fighting [06:56] its in the comments of the faq guide, I have sent emails regarding it, we discussed it a little at the last meeting [06:56] yes, I read those [06:57] Burgundavia, right, thats why the comments are there [06:57] then I spoke to matt [06:57] and he and I chatted about a re spec [06:57] we just havent done it *yet* [06:57] we need resolution not fighting [06:57] and then I created the wiki page and we started hacking on it [06:57] this is NOT just my idea [06:57] right, then when I added a few changes, they were pretty much removed [06:58] something like that need to be done with everyone involved [06:58] it has been [06:58] esp someone who has been working on it alot [06:59] no, it hasnt. All I got was "hey, here is this thing we did" [06:59] sorry you got that impression [06:59] that was not intended [06:59] when I added a few changes, they were dismissed [07:00] your not even responsible for the guide at the moment [07:00] matt and I hacked on it and then I posted something to the list, asking for ideas [07:00] no, I am not [07:00] right [07:00] I was going to, but I didn't have commit access and thus declined [07:00] I will talk about it with matt the next time I see him on here [07:00] you dont need commit access to contribute [07:01] please don't just blank the spec [07:01] until I talk with him and we work out a compromise, I am going to disregard the spec [07:01] please don't do that [07:01] lets works this out [07:01] I'm not happy about this whole thing to be honest [07:02] what would you like to see? [07:03] I am trying to present a consistent vision [07:03] brb son hurt himself [07:08] for our XP iso burning stuff, should we promote installation of random software? [07:12] ok back [07:16] well, was.. [07:16] bbl [07:18] rob^, we are going to need to resolve this dispute [07:20] a little respect for others will go a long way [07:20] I am sorry I offended you, it was not my intention [07:20] matt and I happened to click on the topic and it snowballed === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:21] yes, and I appreciate help [07:21] but I dont like being told what to do [07:21] I looked at the document as it stood and was worried about a consistent vision [07:22] can i ask what document you are talking about and i can give my unbiased point of view? [07:22] sure [07:22] yes, but had you have looked at it in a couple of days time, you would have probably not had the same impression [07:22] FAQGuideReSpec [07:22] on the wii [07:22] rob^, then lets work within the spec that Matt and I generated [07:22] and others worked on [07:22] the reason that the FAQ guide is in the state its in is because I have a full time job I need to be at [07:23] indeed [07:24] I am interested in your overal vision [07:24] my plan for the next few days was to compleatly restructure the FAQ Guide [07:24] ok [07:24] (its friday today) [07:24] good timing [07:24] now we can work together [07:25] well, the thing is once I had done that, you wouldnt have said what you just did [07:25] I am going to take that spec to the NewUsersNetwork to get their ideas at their meeting tomorrow [07:25] I never had any intention of taking over [07:25] I dont think nun needs to be involved until we have something we might consider releasing [07:26] not really [07:26] I am asking their opinions [07:26] yes, but we need to have more then just a layout plan before asking for opinions [07:26] thats not even finalised yet [07:26] mainly due to this [07:26] we have a spec [07:27] that we are working on [07:27] now is the perfect time to ask as many people as possible [07:27] you do realise the FAQ Guide is more then just an faq guide for Ubuntu [07:27] huh? [07:28] can you elaborate? [07:28] theres a kde profile in there and others [07:28] yes [07:28] the profile will remain [07:28] I have no idea where that idea came from [07:28] at this stage I can only see us having a Ubuntu version for Breezy [07:28] there is still a lot of work to be done [07:28] that is why we need a clear roadmap [07:29] hence the spec [07:29] yes, but the spec doesn't take into account the fact that the faq guide originated from ubuntuguide.org [07:29] its like proposing a whole new document [07:29] yes it is [07:30] ubuntuguide is not useful as an FAQ guide [07:30] to be honest [07:30] right, but never the less thats where it came from [07:30] I was there when we profiled the ubuntuguide and converted it into docbook [07:30] I dont like it either, but I have and still am working to change that [07:30] then why object to the spec? [07:30] things like this spec are just adding more work [07:31] no they are not [07:31] they are provided a clear roadmap, so many people can work on it [07:31] ok [07:32] I need to have a bigger imput into it [07:32] input ^ [07:32] ok, go nuts [07:32] simply [07:32] as I have done most of the work to take it from ubuntuguide.org until now [07:32] I was happy to go along with a "spec" [07:32] yes, I recognize that [07:33] until all my changes were pretty much removed from it [07:33] the only changes I made were to align the spec with what the document acutally is [07:33] we are promoting the Ubuntu best practices [07:33] nautlius does ftp [07:33] evo over tbird [07:33] yes, but its not optimal [07:34] editing gconf is not somethign that should in a faqguide [07:34] I was the one who added nautlius and ftp to the doc [07:34] cedega is going into the users guide [07:34] as for gconf, that is why we have gTweakUI [07:34] that is crack [07:34] there is no need to bother new users with that stuff [07:34] right, but a frequently asked question is "how do I play my windows games" [07:34] for some [07:35] the doc is bigger than #ubuntu [07:35] I am shooting for Aunt Tillie and my step-mother [07:35] for Ubuntu's target users [07:35] who could care less about windows games [07:35] most of which are migrating from windows [07:35] want to play windows games [07:35] a select few [07:35] you are wrong [07:35] many do [07:36] cedega is also really not easy to setup [07:36] its why a lot of people dont change or still dual boot [07:36] needs its own guide [07:36] maybe, but it still needs to be addressed in the faq [07:36] there will be a line in the games section [07:36] all thats there now is a link to a guide to install cedega [07:36] pointing at the user guide [07:37] which will go into windows games and ubuntu [07:37] yes === rob^ slaps head [07:37] a link is fine [07:37] thats whats there now [07:37] no [07:37] you have a section [07:37] the spec is sections and subsections [07:37] all the section was going to contain was a quick blurb and a link to a proper guide [07:38] what appears on the left, not what appears on the right [07:38] the faq needs to be short [07:38] that can be done from the main games section [07:38] and simple [07:38] I agree [07:38] that is why I removed some things that you added in === rob^ points above [07:38] they are not short or simple [07:39] look, this is going no where. you wont even listen to me here let alone on the spec [07:39] dude, gconf and gtweakui is a power user thing [07:39] I'll discuss this further with matt [07:39] cya [07:40] rob^, what do you want to add back in? [07:40] lets talk specifics === venda [~sean@ndn-165-137-215.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:41] salut venda [07:42] morn [07:42] rob^ and I are having a disagreement about the FAQGuideReSpec [07:42] k [07:42] wondered if you would take a look [07:43] what's the disagree [07:43] I don't really know [07:43] so what am I looking for :-) [07:43] matt galvin and I did some brainstorming [07:43] we came up with this spec [07:44] you have probably seen the mailing list stuff [07:44] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FAQGuideReSpec [07:44] rob did some editing, adding a few things from the existing faq guide [07:44] I disagreed with some and removed them [07:45] citing a reason in the diff [07:45] then he blanked it [07:45] so I am trying to figure out a common ground [07:46] carry on just reading the spec [07:48] I don't understand that outline. It reads like a User Manual, not a FAQ [07:49] this I mean https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FAQGuideReSpec [07:49] yes [07:49] I imagined each page as less than one screen [07:49] You want FAQ to be a User Manual [07:49] no [07:50] those are frequently asked questions [07:50] How do I create a dvd? [07:50] etc. [07:50] the most common stumbling blocks [07:50] notice I add printers but not scanners [07:51] Um FAQ is Question and Answer [07:51] You can have divs between sections [07:51] it is [07:51] add How do I in front of each subsection [07:52] Hold I must open the FAQ === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:53] salut jsgotangco [07:54] salut [07:54] Burgundavia: you are proposing a very big change [07:54] yes [07:55] Burgundavia: rob^ has been hard at work for a few weeks now [07:55] I just got commit access back, so I intend to do a lot of the writing, as well [07:55] Burgundavia, got an email from mdz on PDATesting, we're set but we have a very conservative baseline target [07:55] I realize that [07:55] jsgotangco, ok [07:55] so has mgalvin [07:55] venda, hello [07:55] wow thats nice [07:55] Burgundavia: but rob^ has done the most [07:55] yes [07:56] he and I are trying to work out what the issues is [07:56] mgalvin has done lots on user guide [07:56] jsgotangco, what is nice? [07:56] jsgotangco: hello [07:56] Burgundavia, getting commit access again [07:56] ah [07:57] venda, I had always intended to do this to the faq gude, just I was lazy about getting my commit access back [07:57] i was playing around with Picasa on an xp box and i'm just at awe at what it can do [07:57] Burgundavia: I would not make any dramatic changes without buyin from rob^ . He is the defacto document owner at present [07:57] Burgundavia: lazy yes [07:58] yes [07:58] I just wanted your opinion [07:58] Burgundavia: lazy does not mean you can just decide to do it now [07:58] well, I have done what I think the faq needs [07:58] Burgundavia: I think there may be a middle ground [07:59] just sort things out between the two of you and im sure there is an acceptable compromise for both [07:59] Burgundavia: sure, but always need to consider other authors [07:59] yes [07:59] not everything on that page is mine [07:59] there is considerable input for mgalvin and rob [08:00] Burgundavia: just a sec I wont to show you something [08:07] venda, I have to go, pm me with it [08:08] Burgundavia: update to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FAQGuideReSpec [08:08] The outline now is designed to encompass a much larger set of questions [08:09] umm, what is the stuff you pasted? [08:09] the original toc? [08:09] end of page [08:09] that is the current outline [08:09] ah [08:09] thought as much [08:09] The categories are much broader in perspective [08:10] It helps to see them side by side [08:10] yes [08:10] The titles are short [08:10] Rapid Information Retrieval [08:10] totally useless for your average desktop user, IMHO [08:10] installing printer vs. Hardware [08:11] umm.. [08:11] when people search they look for keywords and categories [08:11] anyway, I really have to go [08:11] fine [08:11] post to the list [08:11] I am trying my new toc on my parents [08:11] see what they think [08:11] I think you should follow rob^ [08:12] sorry [08:12] to be honest, I am not going to blindly follow somebody [08:12] I didn't see a whole document visiion [08:12] so I provided one [08:12] Burgundavia: he has done bulk of the work [08:12] an dhe has a vision [08:12] yes, but see above [08:13] now you come in an dwant to turn that upside down [08:13] I don't think it is helpful [08:13] no [08:13] not now [08:13] I provided a vision [08:13] I asked for his input [08:13] and others [08:13] and that was incorporated [08:13] some weeks back when we asked for people to own docs [08:13] that would have been a good time for discussion [08:14] I considered our release cycle when I did this [08:14] but rob^ has put in major work and nobody contested. Now to make a big change, like you are asking, no matter how good the idea. I s not right [08:14] sep8 is when we stop writing [08:14] venda, that is total crack [08:15] and leads to bad docs [08:15] Burgundavia: you have sat on the side for weeks [08:15] and said nothing [08:15] you have not done a commit in weeks [08:15] if someone said to me that what I was writing was crack, then I would say ok [08:15] provide me a better alternative [08:15] he has been working hard [08:15] that is what I have done [08:15] changes are good, but not a revolution [08:16] I saw no communicated vision [08:16] we have a wiki for a reason [08:16] if a spec had existed, I would have posted an email asking about certain changes [08:17] ok, I am off [08:17] will be back tomorrow for the NUN meeting [08:58] Burgundavia: what is the NUM meeting? [08:58] venda: 'sup Shawn ? [09:03] sivang: NewUserNetwork Meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NUNAgenda [09:31] robitaille: what is the NUM all about? helping new users? [09:34] sivang: I'm not that familiar with their actitivities, but it seems it is a group of people that want to help new users [09:34] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUsersNetworkGuidelines [09:35] except some of them seem to think they are a group of people who tell docteam members what to do [09:35] "The Aim of the Ubuntu New User Project is to try and help new Ubuntu Users get to grips with Ubuntu. Members of the New User Network will spend a lot of time on IRC, the forums and the mailinglists." [09:36] I think the problem arose when they starting writing up wiki documents for new users; creating a duplication of effort. === Liz [~Liz@static-203-87-81-158.nsw.chariot.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ealden [~ealden@219.90.94.21] has joined #ubuntu-doc === _otep [~otep@AP-203.167.31.177.sysads.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob^ [~rob@rob-ubuntu.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-doc === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:02] is anyone here? [12:04] aww come on! [12:08] I could really use some docbook advice [12:08] never mind [12:08] I figured it out :) [12:37] venda, agree with you. [12:37] corey has done this a little bit disruptively [01:01] yes [01:03] rob^, get together with those guys and have your input on the spec [01:03] yeah I tried that [01:04] corey basically ignored me [01:04] comments like this worry me a bit [01:04] [01:04] any division needs to be ended quickly and resolved [01:05] I know, but I dont want people editing it going off the spec that was done, as I have had no input into it [01:05] and corey wont accept any from me either [01:06] as it is the spec thats been done looks more like a userguide then a simple faq [01:06] and it addresses nothing in the faq guide [01:06] i haven't looked at it [01:06] its almost like saying "lets scrap all that and start again" [01:06] and I dont agree with it [01:06] that is what he is saying maybe [01:06] listen, the important thing is to get this resolved [01:07] we can mediate and you can sort it out with corey. but the important thing is that you can discuss it with mgalvin [01:07] k? [01:07] yes, I want to, but I'm not going to be told "this is how it is, like it or lump it" when I have done most of the work [01:07] I plan on discussing this with matt when I see him on here next [01:08] as I pointed out to corey today [01:08] good [01:08] it will be ok === froud thinks pppl should follow lead of rob^ on this issue [01:08] froud, I agree [01:08] corey has a tendency to be too "final" in his comments [01:08] mgalvin and rob are leads [01:09] rob^ leads it, he has the most work [01:09] they should talk, if necessary with the input of others in the team. [01:09] but I agree, those who do the work, have the most say [01:09] rob^: I think there is some merit in what is being proposed. I think it is up to you to decide how much of the proposal you will accept. [01:09] but the aim of us all here is to make the most useful document for all [01:09] with my latest commit, it solves most of the problems corey is pointing out anyway === froud nods [01:10] i also think there is merit in the proposal, but I believe in communication and I know that this problem can be resolved [01:10] I would have done this 2 days ago, but I do have a job [01:10] whist I'm happy to accept comments and critisims, theres a right way and wrong way to do it [01:10] and corey compleatly overstepped the mark [01:11] rob^: you lead it, but stay open to channels. You have the final say until release on this document. After release, it becomes anybodys game again. [01:11] froud, agreed [01:12] as i said, corey has a tendency to be very "final" in his remarks [01:12] froud, and I'm happy to accept help in the mean time, but it needs to help not hinder [01:12] don't take it personally [01:12] rob^: you seem to have already made a compromise with your last patch. This is good, because it does indicate that you are willing to work with outhers [01:12] froud, yes [01:12] froud, its something I have been working on paper anyway and some of the idea comes from what he said [01:12] rob^: all that remains is for others o respect your position and main commiter on that document [01:13] postion as main === froud has 10 thumbs today [01:13] oh, and I appreciate you all standing behind me on this as you have done [01:13] thanks [01:14] rob^: you are doing a fantastic job. [01:14] Until you, nobody was doing anything [01:14] yeah, I know [01:14] of course we will stand behind the person doing the work [01:14] but ideas are good, even if corey in this case has handled it badly [01:15] rob^: however, there is some positive in their proposal [01:15] froud, I know [01:15] rob^: first it shows that they do care [01:15] we should be working more as a team on specs, because the books we produce affect directly the documentation as a whole [01:15] and I have recognised this with him [01:15] [OT] where are the cron logs? [01:16] rob^: second it shows that people do want to help, but are lacking direction [01:16] in fact, at first I took a look at what he put on that page, and made a few suggestions of my own. [01:16] rob^: I think that you can help channel their energy into a positive direction that is good for everyone [01:17] its when corey compleatly removed all my suggestions and even my name from the page is when I became annoyed [01:17] thats the only reason I took the stand I did [01:17] ouch [01:17] rob^: I don't thin kitmatters now much [01:17] we'll talk to him, ok? [01:17] ok [01:18] froud, can you help me on something? [01:19] rob^: what matters is that you remain focused and resolute on your target. Perhaps express your vision to people, embrace some of their ideas and find a new goal, focus and vision that encompasses the group of people willing to help [01:19] i setup a cron job on the docteam server and I can't tell if its working or not [01:19] where are the damn logs? [01:19] syslog no? [01:20] lemme see [01:20] hmm === mpt [~mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:21] hmm indeed [01:21] I agree, my day job is heavily teamwork-focused, I am an expert at it [01:22] i don't think the cronjob has worked [01:22] mdke: does not look like it :-) [01:23] I'm going to attempt to update the spec page with a few things, I am willing to work together so long as other are also [01:23] ^others [01:23] fair enough, go for it. :-) [01:24] rob^, if you like you can create a /talk page for the spec and add comments [01:24] yeah, I might do [01:24] ok what have i done wrong. I did "crontab -e" as the relevant user, and added the following: [01:25] 0 2 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up [01:25] 0 4 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/gnome && make all && cd ../build && cp -R gnome/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/ [01:25] 0 6 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde && make kall && cd ../build && cp -R kde/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/ [01:25] doesn't look like cron is even trying to use it [01:26] Burgundavia: I can understand the existence of (1) an "Ubuntu Manual" for non-admins, designed for print, (2) an "Ubuntu Admin Guide", designed for print, and (3) Ubuntu Help, designed for online use [01:26] I'm not sure how the "Quick" Guide fits in to that === mgalvin [~mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:27] Perrhaps it could be the basis for the Ubuntu Manual. [01:27] hi all [01:27] Oh, and (4) a "Quick Reference" designed for print. [01:27] That would be a one-page guide. [01:28] mgalvin, perhaps you can have a chat with rob^ about this respec business [01:28] mdke: there is no /var/log/cron and /var/log/messages says nothing [01:28] well noting about crontab [01:29] froud, i looked in syslog, it notes the changes in crontab but nothing else [01:29] yes, seems it did not run :-( [01:29] any idea why? [01:29] but you ran it as your user [01:30] your user has rights in /srv [01:30] Hmm === froud thins [01:30] hang on a tic === froud thinks [01:30] if you do "users" it doesn't show that user [01:30] also, henrik is gone === splatg [~chris@ppp31-82.lns1.syd2.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:30] what has happened? [01:35] youwant my thoughts? [01:35] sure [01:35] we should enable /home/*/public_html [01:36] in apache and let you run it from there [01:36] froud, what about thoughts on the current question? [01:36] we can discuss public_html [01:36] at present, does you account have root [01:36] full root [01:37] the account I'm running the cronjob on is called ubuntu-docs and it has no admin capability [01:37] if not then how can you run a crontab [01:37] that requires such permissions [01:37] cron jobs can be run by any users [01:37] hence it fails [01:37] no it doesn't! [01:37] yes you want to copy to srv/ === mdke sighs [01:38] how can ubuntu-docs cp to srv? [01:38] because it owns the relevant folder [01:38] but that's not the point [01:38] the cron job is not running at all === froud checks again [01:40] but the strange thing is that there seems to be no user called ubuntu-docs [01:40] or henrik [01:41] although their home directories are still there [01:46] mdke: I can't use -u [01:47] trying to see cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u [01:48] -u needs a user after it doesn't it? === splatg [~chris@ppp31-82.lns1.syd2.internode.on.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [01:49] and you need admin rights too i think [01:49] sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$ cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u ubuntu-doc [01:49] crontab: user `ubuntu-doc' unknown [01:49] sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$ [01:49] ubuntu-docs [01:50] sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$ cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs [01:50] must be privileged to use -u [01:50] sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$ [01:50] yes [01:50] hang on [01:51] root@none:~ # cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs [01:51] crontab: usage error: no arguments permitted after this option [01:52] exactly and that command works on my host [01:52] without the user [01:52] I can see all the crottabs on my machine [01:52] erm [01:52] root@none:~ # crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs [01:52] 0 2 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up [01:52] 0 4 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/gnome && make all && cd ../build && cp -R gnome/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/ [01:52] 0 6 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde && make kall && cd ../build && cp -R kde/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/ [01:52] the command is wrong dude [01:53] you run hoary on your host? [01:53] yeah [01:53] hmm [01:53] no my command is used to gather crontabs from all users [01:54] ok [01:54] mdke, yes rob^ and i will get together to talk about the repsec, i am on my way to work in a few min so we will be going over everything in a little while [01:54] mgalvin, great news [01:54] yeah [01:55] froud, i'll play around later and figure it out [01:55] bbl === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === kbrooks [~kbrooks@d235-163-159.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-137-215.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [~mgalvin@host-66-202-95-170.spr.choiceone.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:40] back [02:40] cool [03:15] yes, so [03:16] the document outline is currently whats in svn [03:34] just a short recap, rob^ and I had a discussion(off channel) about what transpired yesterday which was forced quite a bit, we have resolved any and all concerns and will continue to move forward in a positve and constructive way, everyone(ESPECIALLY ALL of the most ACTIVE contributors) should be actively included in these types of discussions and developement, so lets get back to business together :) [03:35] yes, I agree [03:44] are you guys talking about the changes to the FAQ guide [03:44] cause i like how it looks [03:45] jjesse, have you see the latest one? [03:45] i looked last night but was there a change made before 11pm EST [03:46] yeah, I have made a few big changes since [03:46] umm.. [03:47] well if you look at svn now, you will see whats up to date :) [03:47] just build it [03:49] ok checking it out [03:49] do you know when the live previews will work on DocteamProjects again? [03:50] (I realise they are in the process of changing servers) [03:54] rob^ where in svn is that kept? [03:54] build/gnome/faqi386 [03:55] or generic/faqguide/C/ for the .xml [04:12] hey rob^, what do you think about calling "Sound and Video" "Music and Movies", i am kindda partial to calling it that, that was my initial suggestion, seems a little more noob friendly imho [04:12] yeah its much of a muchness really [04:12] knock yourself out :P [04:13] (aussie humor) [04:13] :) [04:14] I'm about to send a msg to the list saying that comments on the spec should be sent to the list rather then edited on the wiki [04:14] this would exclude you and me however [04:15] ok [04:15] i feel so special ;) [04:15] cool [04:15] hehe === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@info12-31.info.com.ph] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:19] hey jsgotangco [04:22] hey hows your day going [04:24] hmmm why did the guy who filed in bugzilla sent it as documentation bug when its obviously hardware related [04:24] hehe yeah [04:24] the powerbook thing [04:24] pretty good, rob^ and I are pushing forward with the faqguide and i think some good progress is being made to resolve issues and make a rocking guide [04:25] man the faqguide in svn is burning kudos to you rob^ [04:25] :) thanks [04:25] you too mgalvin [04:26] i haven't been doing enough stuff lately because of issues at work and home [04:26] i've been doing it in small patches though [04:26] thanks, rob^ has been blazing the trail recently and making great progress [04:26] also have to make a main inclusion report after testing some stuff [04:28] by chance is anyone here familiar with Oracle Applications? :) [04:28] no, sorry [04:29] i am a bit, whats up [04:29] mgalvin: 11.5.9 you familiar with it [04:29] latest i have used extensively was 10g, but ask, maybe i can help [04:30] (Oracle Financials) [04:30] no, not the database [04:30] Oracle 11i is E-Business suite using 9i db [04:30] no sorry, i have not used that one :-/ [04:31] its alright its kinda hard to look for people who worked with it really === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:31] i usually talk to some indian at this time, but even we get conflicting solutions heh [04:36] mgalvin: have you tried running 9i/10g in Ubuntu? [04:36] (if its possible) [04:37] i haven't tried yet, but i have seen docs describing how to do it, i a pretty positive it should work [04:38] here is one [04:38] http://www.sussdorff.de/journal/one-entry?entry_id=27082 [04:38] again, i haven't personally tired so, no promises [04:39] oracle docs also have lots of good stuff on what kernel params and such need to be set [04:40] it would be interesting if ubuntu will push for support on such and oracle accepts [04:40] that would be pretty sweet [04:40] it would make ubuntu even more viable for enterprises [04:41] http://www.oracle-base.com/articles/10g/OracleDB10gInstallationOnFedora3.php [04:41] its for fedora, but just make appropriate path mods, etc... [05:15] rob^, you ok with moving installing flash into the internet section(seems more logical to me to put it there since it for inet stuff) [05:15] yeah, I wasnt sure on that one actually. [05:16] let me commit my change first [05:16] k [05:17] rob^, have you been using breezy at all yet? [05:17] I was before they broke x [05:17] hehe :) [05:18] i was thinking that we don't need mplayer and the mplayer plugin, totem provides these quite well now [05:18] i don't really like mplayer, but thats just my personal pref [05:18] totem, imho, is much nicer and easier to use [05:19] breezy already has totem and the totem plugin in it [05:21] yes I agree totem is nice, it runs like crap on my pc though, mplayer works good though [05:21] weard, that [05:22] oh, I've done the commit [05:22] have you tried totem with the xine backends [05:22] gstreamer is really sluggish [05:22] yeah, might do [05:22] I use to have that going on Breezy IIRC [05:26] hmm that works much better [05:26] stick totem-xine in for sure [05:27] :) [05:28] so possibly remove mplayer, this also may be a good idea since i know many people often have issues getting mplayer installed properly, especially on the ppc arch, totem just works === rob^ looks at time, shite its 1:30 am [05:29] glad its friday [05:29] well saturday now [05:29] heh yeah im ready to crash as well..but then its a weekend [05:29] ah TGIF [05:29] still 11:30 on firday here :) [05:29] am [05:29] im in a separate PC across my table playing guild wars [05:30] and wife is already asleep so i'll just pig out the whole night [05:30] yeah mine is too [05:30] rob^ i am gonna run xmlindent on the guide to just to clean it up a bit so its easier to read, any objections? [05:31] I gotta pass a fitness test soon so I cant pig out [05:31] nope [05:31] go ahead [05:31] k [05:32] ahh i love the weekends its the only time my wife allows me to eat junk === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@info12-31.info.com.ph] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@info12-31.info.com.ph] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:32] maccas run? [05:32] hehe [05:32] that was a quick maccas run [05:32] heheh [05:32] i actually had a quarter pounder a few hours ago [05:33] its been months since i last had one === rob^ wishes he wasnt to lazy to get in his car and go get one himself === rob^ yawns [05:33] time to hit the sack I think [05:34] b4 the bub wakes up [05:35] night all, have fun mgalvin [05:35] night [05:36] night rob^ [05:38] i gotta sleep too heh [05:38] night [05:38] night jsgotangco [05:42] rob^ are you still there, quick question [05:45] oh well, it'll wait till tomorrow === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@info12-31.info.com.ph] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:06] gyahaahhhh [06:07] yes? [06:07] i get to be on the laptop testing team heh...i just got an email right now [06:07] I just got mine as well. I also did the little dance in my kitchen :) [06:08] haha congrats to you too [06:08] damn its 12am [06:08] 9am here. About to start packing to go camping for the week. [06:09] no computer access for a full 7 days :) [06:09] whoa [06:09] robitaille: did you read #8 [06:09] 3 Ubuntu releases? [06:10] you can always return it [06:10] it used to be 2 in a draft version on the wiki. [06:10] ahh [06:10] It's only 18 months. [06:10] ahh right [06:10] that's not too much [06:11] we do the debugging/testing anyway on our own :) [06:11] i was reading wikipedia on miss universe winners... [06:12] I see that jsgotangco is having a very busy evening while his wife is already sleeping [06:13] hahaha [06:13] (at least its wikipedia) [06:14] and claire's email suddenly erased thoughts of sleeping [06:14] now that is odd [06:14] I got an email for Matthew Garret [06:15] what about it? [06:15] the laptop testing email === jsgotangco hugs gmail label feature [06:17] yes it was from Claire, to Matthew. I guess all the testers were BCC to it. [06:18] hmmm is LaptopTestingSpec up to date? [06:18] oh [06:18] I didn't think I put my name down [06:20] I didn't [06:20] odd [06:21] odd? [06:21] I got an email from claire, regarding the laptop testing team when I didn't put my name down to be part of it [06:22] well maybe they mjg59 has too many laptops in his pad and wants to dispose them [06:23] surely he doesn't want to test them all by himself === robitaille is afraid will all each get half-a-dozen laptops each to test at every release [06:26] Burgundavia: look at it in a positive way: people really appreciate you bug-finding skills if they really want you on that team [06:26] robitaille: scary thought... [06:27] I guess so [06:27] robitaille: next they'll be sending you servers to test... [06:27] someone may have added me === Burgundavia wouldn't mind a server [06:27] *ahem* blade servers [06:28] those are the new and shiny ones, no? [06:28] wouldn't mind them [06:28] servers are often a bit noisy to put in my kitchen (the only place where I can fit a computer in this small apartment) [06:29] yeah servers would rule as long as they won't get to be no bigger than an as400 machine [06:29] I would have to sleep with a server, no thanks [06:30] my cunning plan is to get my parents to colo my server, so to speak [06:31] Burgundavia: any universe app that might be a candidate for main needs an inclusion report? [06:31] yes [06:32] for good reason, as you saw in my list [06:32] s/list/email to the list [06:32] yes i'll make one then as mdz requested [06:33] for edubuntu? [06:34] well theres one for edubuntu and one for pda spec..or is it too late for an inclusion? === jsgotangco havent been checking schedules [06:34] no [06:34] there is no seed freeze, afaik [06:35] the edubuntu one, please put on the edubuntu page [06:35] alright === Burgundavia needs to do one for p7zip [06:35] Burgundavia, have you clarified with rob^ ? [06:35] mdke, yes [06:35] good :) [06:35] hey mdke [06:35] hiya [06:36] Burgundavia: p7zip is 7zip for nix? [06:36] ya [06:36] 7z is awesome [06:37] at the very least, it needs some fixing [06:37] hey mdke how's the tube [06:37] i haven't been in london a lot recently... [06:37] understandable [06:39] mdke: got the laptop email? [06:39] yeah :) [06:39] dunno what hardware tho === robitaille high-five mdke [06:40] well pray its not a samsung or an acer heheh [06:40] but the spec mostly covers dell, toshiba, hp and ibm [06:43] anything light would really be nice [06:43] but what the hell, its free! [06:43] mdke: you're the closest to them. You will get the big paper-weight laptop to save shipping cost [06:43] sure after 3 releases heh [06:43] robitaille: hahah [06:43] noooooooooooo === mdke moves to australia [06:44] mdke: do uk people free to move in commonwealth states? [06:45] no idea [06:45] doubt it [06:45] so much for having the same queen hehe :P [06:45] no, but it is easier [06:46] froud has been to them all! [06:46] is isle of man a state? [06:47] if you have a BP marked as BC you will find it easy to move around [06:47] jsgotangco, part of the UK afaik, but not 100% sure [06:47] jsgotangco: not really. A friend of mine from UK was trying to move to Canada, and he had to go through the usual immigration red-tape. [06:47] huh? what kind of englishman are you anyway ;) [06:48] bah [06:48] robitaille: you have to use the channels, but believe me it is easier [06:48] i have only half english blood [06:48] if I tried to move countries with my SA passport it would be difficult [06:48] mdke: no tea and lemon biscuits then? [06:48] mmm [06:48] those come into the half that I've got [06:48] tell that to a poor student who still had to pay hundred of dollars in visa fees :) But I agree, it was probably a little bit easier. [06:49] i agree === venda [~sean@ndn-165-137-215.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:49] to a poor urban professional like me hundreds of dollars is worth a lot [06:52] hmmm how i wish OOo2 base would be as clear to use like filemaker === _venda_ [~sean@ndn-165-137-215.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia is testing how well ext3 can recover, by kicking his power cable out === froud [~froud@ndn-165-137-215.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-137-215.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:04] mmm? [07:05] network splits [07:05] bah! === robitaille thinks Burgundavia is crazy to try to simulate hd corruptions... === Burgundavia thinks he is just crazy [07:12] thinks? [07:12] I like to rabble rouse [07:12] haven't you figured that out by now? [07:13] burgey: you *are* crazy [07:15] the best is probably to find a VERY large pictures. Try to some complex gimp transformation on it. When it start swaping (especially if your swap space is a file on your ext3 disk) like crazy, then pull the plug. [07:16] but a hammer also works very well to simulate disk problems and bad blocks [07:23] erm s/simulate/stimulate/ [07:23] damn i should stop playing san andreas, im beginning to speak like an east side gangster === Burgundavia deletes the 500th "Would you like to buy Windows XP" spam [07:24] no I don't. I hate XP. I hate windows. I hate MS, go away! [07:25] how about your viagra emails heh [07:25] ya, get those 2 [07:30] alright i really got to sleep now [07:30] ciao [07:53] from sean's earlier email i've started using the eclipse docbook plugin [07:53] works great w/ the subversion plugin as well [07:53] jjesse: have you found a way to stop it from changing the whitespace ? [07:54] venda not yet still working on it, just found the subversion plugin so i'm going to working on it this weekend [07:54] jjesse: you are talking aboyt vex, right? [07:54] nod vex and subeclipse [07:54] yes [07:55] vex is nice for editing, but makes big changes in the whitespace [07:55] thanks for letting me know about that... i will be careful [07:55] open a file, save it and the diff it against svn you will see what I mean [07:56] if we can find a way to stop that happening it will be bongo === thechitowncubs [~thechitow@c-67-175-52-127.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:39] Amarok page created last night [08:41] noticed that [08:41] cool [09:01] we need to make an effort on the documentation page to explain the guides. rather than "guide to x", maybe "guide to x, which does y" [09:02] we should also spec all the docs ont eh wiki [09:02] to prevent what just happened [09:02] yes [09:03] we agreed to do that two meetings back [09:03] oh [09:03] although it'll be no use if you come along as say "this spec is wrong" :p [09:03] I didn't [09:03] there was no spec === mdke nods [09:04] i was being hypothetical [09:04] yes [09:04] the quick guide is also misspeced, but meh [09:04] lol [09:04] I am going to work on the wiki, where I can actually change useful things [09:04] you have a real tendency to be very final in your suggestions [09:05] I don't mean to [09:05] i know dude [09:05] just add IMO to every sentence [09:05] maybe an email signature :D [09:05] ok, IMHO [09:05] yes, IMHO [09:05] lol [09:05] :) [09:06] the reason I sound that way is that I tend to spend about 6 months thinking about something [09:06] then just move [09:06] i understand [09:06] rather than dither about [09:07] but we have to work as a team [09:07] which means gathering opinions [09:07] working as a team also means published what we plan to do [09:07] I did [09:07] takes a bit longer, as Sean complains, but it makes for more love [09:09] we need to be more agressive about promoting what we are working on [09:09] then we can get more people, if their is a vision [09:09] agreed [09:09] the server should help [09:09] we need spec pages on the wiki [09:09] ala the style guide thingy [09:10] so people can come in and start working, in a useful manner [09:10] agreed [09:10] so, back to my thinking and doing [09:10] I am going to fork the faqguide [09:11] i'm adding some explanations to the UserDocumentation page [09:11] oh yeah? [09:11] create a common problems guide based on the spec that I worked on [09:11] ok [09:11] going to keep it in baz [09:11] what are you gonna call it? [09:11] Common Problems guide [09:11] sounds like the sort of thing mpt might be interested in [09:11] absolutely [09:11] that is the intention [09:13] have you got a spec already then? [09:13] yes, the one that I created for the FAQGuide respec [09:14] as it passed the father test [09:14] is the FAQGuide still under dispute? [09:15] no [09:15] I forked it [09:15] oh ok [09:16] mdke, anything you want raised at the nun meeting? [09:16] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsGuideSpec [09:16] except for the useless duplication of documentation on the wiki... [09:16] nothing else [09:16] suggestions welcome [09:17] when is the nun meeting? [09:17] Burgundavia, will you be in bad cop mode at the meeting? [09:17] want me to come? [09:17] I hope not to be [09:17] see how it goes [09:17] go the diplomacy route... Mez understand our point of view [09:18] so does Nalioth [09:18] if we get bad cop on them they'll just back into corners [09:18] indeed [09:18] in the end, all we want to do is ensure that effort gets funnelled in the most efficient way [09:18] I got to grab some lunch, feel free to comment on the commonprobs spec [09:18] ok [09:19] Burgundavia, i'm adding bold font to the program names in UserDocumentation, think its a good idea? [09:19] just do it [09:19] no idea right now, have to see it [09:19] ok yeah [09:19] me too [09:20] i started adding bold font to command name in the faqguide if you want to see an small example [09:20] look in the installing codecs section === kbrooks [~kbrooks@d235-164-162.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:22] i think bolding the links would look better [09:24] i've bolded the links in the software section [09:24] lemme know what you think [09:24] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation [09:27] the links aren't bolded... [09:29] no [09:29] just the software names [09:29] sorry [09:29] s/links/names [09:29] i don't like the look of that [09:29] but thats my opinion... [09:29] can you explain why [09:29] i wanted your opinion :) [09:30] looks sloppy and erratic [09:35] ok [09:35] any ideas about how to make the names of the programs more readable from the text? italics? [09:36] Trying to think of a way as we speak [09:37] i think it would look better if each description had the name of the program in the same place === Mez [~Mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:38] and then having the links in another place, not the first thing [09:39] For example: [09:39] I'm trying to think of the example :) [09:39] lol [09:40] i'll let you know when my idea matures a bit :) [09:40] i know what you mean, I think its a good idea === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:40] I don't think the link should be the first focus, i think the program should be and then the link somewhere else that is still highly noticeable [09:43] mdke, ping [09:44] has anyone made a wiki team yet on launchpad? [09:44] Seveas, sup [09:44] thechitowncubs, no [09:44] thechitowncubs, interesting idea [09:44] are there plans for one :) [09:44] (the link thing, not the LP one) [09:44] thechitowncubs, no [09:44] mdke, NuN meeting in 15 minutes, you wanted me to ping you :) [09:45] Seveas, ah thanks, I may not be able to make it I'm afraid, but Burgundavia will hopefully set out the docteam view on stuff :) [09:45] ok [10:15] So far so good. === highvoltage [~Jono@196.25.192.240] has joined #ubuntu-doc === kbrooks thinks he can help === highvoltage too [10:31] any page that you think needs help, can be listed on WikiToDo [10:32] if you want to fix up a page, that is also where to go [10:32] ok, Burgundavia [10:32] have any questions, just ask [10:32] I've written technical documentation for schools. Troubleshooting guides and getting started guides mostly. [10:32] FileCompression and AudioCDCreation are fairly good examples [10:32] hi highvoltage [10:32] of what we are looking for [10:32] hi mdke [10:32] thechitowncubs, i don't like the idea of structuring UserDocumentation by user. I think its better to structure it by subject [10:33] both has pros and cons [10:33] we'll see how things iron out [10:33] in terms of finding things, I think that makes it easier [10:33] but let's be honest: once that page becomes very long, people will use CTRL F to find stuff [10:33] people tend to be tasked based [10:33] yes [10:34] and there is a wierd mind-trip involved with "novice" and "expert" stuff [10:34] yes [10:34] some people don't categorize themselves well [10:34] there is no dividing line [10:34] scrap that idea then... [10:34] observe all the poor fools who do the expert install in Ubuntu and then mess it up [10:34] i just thought some users looking for docs might be burdened by the vocabulary, level of difficulty surrounding the tutorial, etc [10:35] then simply the language [10:35] I have an MCSE and I still love simple docs [10:35] yeah we need to simplify the whole document [10:35] s/MCSE/training towards an MCSE/ [10:35] no comment :) [10:36] what is that? [10:36] UserDocumentation has a bright future indeed, i'm excited to start working on it after the meeting [10:36] what I am saying is that just becuase you are an "expert" doesn't mean you don't want plain english docs [10:36] Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer [10:36] eww === Burgundavia is sorry [10:37] I always thought it was Minesweeper Consultant Solitaire Expert. [10:37] but now we're going OT :) [10:37] Burgundavia: why do you have a MCSE? [10:37] kbrooks, because I do [10:37] before I saw the light [10:38] Burgundavia: silly you [10:38] I never want to touch another windows machine in my life [10:39] mdke, thechitowncubs just created it [10:39] jeez [10:39] bloody hell [10:39] it can be a subsection of the docteam [10:39] lp allows that [10:39] this obsession with creating LP teams gets on my nerves SO much [10:39] but there is no docteam lp team [10:39] oh :/ [10:40] obsession? [10:40] plus, the wiki team is not "people who write docs on the wiki" [10:40] it can be [10:40] its "people who work on technical problems on the wiki" [10:40] its a team of wiki contributers... thats what i always looked at it as [10:40] Burgundavia, no, because there is no reason for creating a team which includes the whole universe [10:40] EVERYONE has access to editing the wiki [10:40] yes [10:41] I think it is useful [10:41] the idea of the wiki team was to create a group if it was necessary to implement access rights [10:41] well, the people in the wiki team are the people who are heavily editing the wiki [10:41] i think it will be used as a status symbol, like many of the other new launchpad teams, and has no purpose [10:41] a team is a group of people working together, so a wiki team sounds ideal [10:41] and thus most likely to be trusted with those access rights === mdke puts head in hands [10:41] its good for notifying users of changes, stuff like that [10:42] mdke, we are eventually going to have to turn off deletion for everybody [10:42] launchpad groups have no function except for status symbols [10:42] the team merely identifies who is actively working ont eh wiki [10:42] Burgundavia, yes, but you can't activate that through launchpad [10:42] but as lp gets further integrated into the wiki, it will matter [10:42] the point of lp is to be "the place" for this stuff [10:43] it will never be sufficiently integrated with the wiki to define access rights on it [10:43] s/never/not for a long time [10:43] what is your obbsession with access rights? === thechitowncubs puts head in hands [10:43] thechitowncubs, let me explain. [10:43] sounds great [10:44] thechitowncubs, i see the creation of groups as useful when it serves a purpose. In this case, given that the whole point of the wiki is that EVERYONE can edit and improve it, the only reason for a group would be to define those people who have extended access rights, such as the ability to delete pages, move pages, modify wiki configuration etc. [10:44] this isn't implemented [10:44] thus, no need for a defined group [10:44] especially not a LP team [10:45] i think it just promotes team work and efficiency [10:45] what we have now is 2 wiki teams, one designed by us previously as people who take care of the structure of the wiki, another one created now, who edit the content of the wiki [10:45] 2 teams, same name [10:45] = bad [10:45] this is partly the fault of lack of definition of the first team tho, not yours [10:46] ouch [10:46] this is all my opinion of course === mdke winks at Burgundavia [10:47] i haven't convinced you tho, thechitowncubs ? [10:48] I don't see the problem. wiki team exist here. Exist on the lauchpad as well as a way to track down its members, and maybe be used for other usage (mailing list...access right to more permanent wiki pages, etc.) [10:48] the teams have different objectives as I see it [10:48] right now it is useless..but within 6 month LP will be the center of our Ubuntu Universe. [10:48] The wiki team on launchpad isn't a different team in my view [10:49] I suspect that if the work needed to be done regarding wiki/lp integration, then it will happen [10:49] thechitowncubs, ah [10:49] thechitowncubs, well there is a difference in membership [10:49] and I think, objectives [10:49] right....the wiki team on LP IS the wiki team. You want to help...instead of having a wiki page with our members name, we have a group page on LP. [10:49] i just started the team because there wasn't one on launchpad, and i knew there was one created [10:50] ok but if it is going to involve taking care of the structure of the wiki, a prerequisite must be knowledge of the wiki software and organisation, rather than the writing of documentation [10:51] fair enough [10:51] hmm [10:51] we need to get common objectives for the two teams then [10:52] i mean the one team [10:52] how large is the "current" more important wiki team? [10:52] its not more important [10:53] its less important if anything, because the docs are more important than fixing broken links and deleting pages and so on [10:53] but so far we have kinda failed to define what the team is about [10:54] Its a team of active wiki contributers that new writers/contributers can look to for question guidance on what to do and also a way of working as a team to get things done quicker without redundancy. [10:55] ok [10:55] sounds good [10:55] :) [10:55] what are we gonna do with the old wiki team? === Burgundavia gets out his murdering axe [10:56] careful Burgundavia, you're listed too [10:56] ahh [10:56] yes I know [10:57] should robitaille be considered an administrator? [10:57] why I don't run gentoo --> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74072 [10:58] thechitowncubs, if he says yes [10:58] thechitowncubs, what is the role of an administrator? [10:58] approves new people into the group [10:58] ah its a moderated team? [10:58] okay === mdke applies [10:59] its just moderated to get to know new users and just to be more organized and intertwined [10:59] we should think about merging this team with WikiTeam on the wiki [10:59] thechitowncubs, yeah good idea [10:59] mdke: sounds good to me [10:59] change the contact address to the docteam mailing list? [11:00] sounds good, whats the address [11:00] I will do it [11:00] thechitowncubs, you should subscribe tho [11:00] lots of wiki talk goes there [11:00] alright, will do [11:00] mdke, I am not an ubuntu-doc admin, can you approve that addy to the list? [11:00] sorry I mean WikiTalk *nudges Burgundavia* [11:01] Burgundavia, me neither [11:01] have to wait for jerome [11:02] thechitowncubs: I can be administrator. no preference one way or the other. [11:02] more admin means less likelyhood of awol people holding the whole thing up [11:02] thechitowncubs, i've started the merge, will you edit the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiTeam to add what you see this team doing? [11:02] sounds good :) === kbrooks is happy [11:03] can bugs be assigned to a LP team? If we ever get a wiki "bug" via Malone... === mdke steals kbrooks's cookies [11:04] robitaille, yes i presume so [11:04] yes [11:04] and we can even own "products" [11:04] so should we do a Docteam team? and send bugs to it? [11:04] yes [11:04] brb [11:05] who should the docteam team contain? svn account holders? [11:05] and there is that calendar things that is slowly coming online in LP. I suspect one day, teams will send up their future meeting ammouncement via this. [11:05] that's a bit restrictive [11:05] yeah the calendar thing looks cool [11:06] and then wiki team will be a member of the doc team. I think teams can be members of other teams. === Burgundavia wants hula integration [11:06] so we can all have hula addys from launchpad [11:06] problem is, if the docteam starts using baz, then the docteam group in launchpad should probably be people who have access to that repository [11:06] this launchpad is really coming together :) [11:06] yes [11:07] long way to go yet [11:07] but LP is much better than even a couple of months ago. It's actually usable now [11:07] more or less... [11:08] LP is going to be more usable [11:08] and it is being worked on [11:08] who has done some sysadmin on an ubuntu system? [11:08] god knows how much money sabdfl has spent on lp so far [11:08] mdke, what are you trying to do? [11:09] i have, i think. depending on the definition of sysadmin. [11:09] i'm trying to figure out how come my cron job on the docteam server isn't working [11:09] mdke: I sysadmin my computer :) [11:09] does the script work? [11:09] and I used to a sysadmin in a previous life [11:09] Burgundavia, yeah [11:09] is doesn't run at all? [11:09] what isn't it doing? [11:10] it doesn't look like it runs at all [11:10] do i need the user in a particular group? [11:10] also, where are the cron logs? [11:10] are you sure it is running at the time you think it should run? i.e what is the time zone of the box? [11:10] they should have their own folder [11:10] robitaille, yeah checked [11:12] have you tried a very simple script? maybe something that pipe something to a file to check if it actually runs [11:12] the scripts work in the command line... thing is, i can't find a single log that says that something is happening at that time of day [11:13] i'll paste the crontab [11:13] the other thing to try is to try the script in the cron job on your machine [11:13] i have a gentoo server [11:13] i'll try on my laptop, good idea [11:13] this is the crontab [11:13] root@none:/var/log # crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs [11:13] 0 2 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up [11:13] 0 4 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/gnome && make all && cd ../build && cp -R gnome/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/ [11:14] 0 6 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde && make kall && cd ../build && cp -R kde/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/ [11:15] it doesn't seem to even have done the first line [11:16] trying on my laptop [11:17] why don't you but these commands in one script? I'm always of multiple commands with && in one single crontab line. [11:17] s/^afraid^ [11:17] ah ok [11:18] but i wanted to make sure each line was done before the next one started [11:18] what would the script be? [11:18] then if you remove the hour part, just keep the minute for now for testing purpose; then you can test it every couple of minute. [11:18] You will have 3 script, one per line: [11:18] #!/bin/sh [11:18] cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up [11:19] ok [11:19] etc [11:19] thanks dude [11:19] trying [11:19] personally I always found it cleaning to keep the crontab lines very simple. [11:19] s/cleaning/cleaner/ === Burgundavia is bored bored bored [11:23] robitaille, so is this cool? [11:23] ubuntu-docs@none:~$ crontab -l [11:23] 0 2 * * * ./svn_up [11:23] 0 4 * * * ./copy_gnome_to_webspace [11:23] 0 6 * * * ./copy_kde_to_webspace [11:24] you need full paths to these scripts. You have to assume very basic environment for any cron job [11:24] argh [11:24] sorry [11:24] so /home/ubuntu-docs/./svn_up? [11:24] sorry for being thick [11:24] /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up [11:24] assuming they are in the root of the users home dir [11:24] don't worry...I have done these mistakes many times before; sometimes it works, but not always [11:24] ./home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up [11:24] I think [11:25] /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up seems to work from the command line [11:25] yes, /home...should work [11:28] testing now [11:28] we'll see if it works [11:29] robitaille, afayk, is the minutes format in the crontab ok? [11:30] looking at my machine [11:30] 00 22 * * * /mnt/music/podcast/bashpodder.shell [11:31] yes, yours shuold be fine. Are far in advance you try it? Some machine need over a minute of no changes to the crontab to make it to work. [11:31] hmm [11:31] ok i've set it to test for now [11:32] 30 17 * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up [11:32] 33 17 * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/copy_gnome_to_webspace [11:32] 36 17 * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/copy_kde_to_webspace [11:32] not sure if I had a clear minute ;) === qt2 [~qt2@pool-64-222-254-242.port.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:34] so if you do "date", you are at 5pm on that machine? [11:34] 17.34 [11:34] great === mdke looks to see [11:35] have to give it a few minutes === mdke crosses fingers [11:37] you can also you [11:37] use "at" to test scripts [11:37] "at now" [11:37] at? [11:37] then cut and pase your script /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up then do a control-d [11:38] man at :) [11:39] lol [11:40] I love at.. You can do things like "at now +1min" to run script in the future [11:41] I would offer to actually login on that box to debug it....but I'll be gone for the next week. Maybe when I return. [11:44] hmm === Mez [~Mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:45] thanks robitaille [11:45] it hasn't worked :( [11:45] script looks alright [11:45] cron is obviously just not starting the job [11:46] nor on my laptop [11:47] oh hang on [11:47] it has worked on my laptop [11:47] have you tried without the hour for now: [11:47] 50 * * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up [11:47] trying now [11:47] that would eliminate a time issue [11:48] ubuntu-docs@none:/home/matt$ crontab -l [11:48] 50 * * * * mkdir /home/ubuntu-docs/test [11:49] thechitowncubs, ok i removed the bold from the software section and tried something else - like it? [11:50] I like that a lot ore [11:50] more [11:50] a lot more user friendly :) [11:51] robitaille, in my /var/log/syslog on my laptop I can see the cronjob working [11:51] not on the server though [11:51] thechitowncubs, cool [11:51] robitaille, the mkdir /home/ubuntu-docs/test/ hasn't worked [11:53] i'm trying a crontab on my hoary to see if I get something in my logs [11:53] just to double check: chmod u+x /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up ? [11:54] robitaille, are you not subscribed to the whole wiki anymore? [11:54] I removed earlier myself since I'll be gone for the week. I don't want 1000 emails waiting for me next weekend [11:54] ah [11:54] smart [11:54] robitaille, i did the +x [11:55] you can always use RecentChanges rather than email subscriptions [11:55] its a lot better than on the previous wiki software [11:55] someone in #ubuntu? [11:55] yes, on hoary crontab leaves something in /var/log/syslog [11:55] Jul 22 14:54:01 localhost /USR/SBIN/CRON[14643] : (daniel) CMD (/home/daniel/test.sh) [11:56] RecentChanges is actually usable [11:56] robitaille, yeah i see it on my laptop === mgalvin [~mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:58] robitaille, you think i need to add the user to some kind of group? [12:00] mdke: I don't think so. Unless the setup of that box is more restrictive than a normal hoary install? [12:00] I don't even know where to look for that. [12:00] i guess its a server install [12:00] he did a warty install then upped it to hoary [12:02] audiocdcreation updated [12:02] robitaille, just noticed something that rules that out [12:02] robitaille, the root crontab isn't running either [12:02] i think