[03:06] <HrdwrBoB> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MplayerInstallHowto
[03:06] <HrdwrBoB> ugh that looks awful, I'm cleaning it up
[03:23] <HrdwrBoB> are we mentioning w32codecs on the wiki or not?
[03:23] <mgalvin> i would say not i think
[03:24] <HrdwrBoB> yeah that's what I though
[03:49] <mdke> i like that doc
[03:49] <mdke> what's up with it?
[03:50] <HrdwrBoB> mdke: it's fixed now
[03:50] <mdke> i'll check out your changes
[03:50] <HrdwrBoB> the content was fine, it just wasn't formatted very well
[03:51] <mdke> hmm
[03:51] <mdke> i preferred his sources.list to the AddingMultimediaRepositories one
[03:51] <mdke> backports isn't necessary for mplayer, which is in multiverse
[03:52] <HrdwrBoB> backports isn't in there
[03:52] <HrdwrBoB> or at least, it shouldn't be
[03:52] <HrdwrBoB> it just has hoary-extras
[03:52] <mdke> well that is a backports archive
[03:52] <mdke> mplayer is still in ubuntu multiverse
[03:53] <HrdwrBoB> true
[03:53] <mdke> i don't like the AddingMultimediaRepositories page
[03:54] <mdke> hoary-extras --
[03:54] <HrdwrBoB> should probably link to AddingRepositoriesHowto
[03:54] <mdke> that's my opinion yeah
[03:55] <mdke> the ideal conf file IMHO is at ExampleConffiles
[03:55] <mdke> MplayerInstallHowto is the only page on the wiki that links to AddingMultimediaRepositories :)
[04:02] <HrdwrBoB> there
[04:02] <HrdwrBoB> changed the link and fixed up the formatting a bit more
[04:08] <Burgundavia> should we promote cedega?
[04:08] <HrdwrBoB> certainly not promote it
[04:09] <HrdwrBoB> but there's no reason not to tell people it exists
[04:09] <mdke> no idea about it
[04:09] <mdke> but people seem to use it and find it useful
[04:10] <mdke> -->bed
[04:10] <mdke> night
[04:10] <mdke> nice one on Mplayer HrdwrBoB 
[04:11] <mdke> HrdwrBoB, nice to have you helping us. Add your name to WikiTeam?
[04:14] <mgalvin> s/Keeping your machine updated/Keeping Ubuntu Software Updated/ ?
[04:15] <mdke> i like machine
[04:15] <mgalvin> seems a little more noob friendl imho
[04:15] <mdke> i would say keeping your computer updated is more friendly
[04:15] <Burgundavia> Keeping Ubuntu updated ?
[04:16] <mdke> btw maybe you two could get together with rob^ and hack out that spec, resolve any confusion
[04:16] <Burgundavia> yes
[04:16] <mdke> prepare a spec with user audience too
[04:16] <mdke> like jeff did with the styleguide
[04:17] <mgalvin> my mom would understand better keeping software updated
[04:17] <mdke> also, if you cut out any power user stuff, let's cut and paste into the userguide if appropriate
[04:17] <Burgundavia> shall I add who I think the guide should be targeted at on the top of the page
[04:17] <Burgundavia> mdke, absolutely, that was the plan
[04:17] <mdke> Burgundavia, copy jeff's structure
[04:17] <Burgundavia> to reference sections of the user guide for further info
[04:17] <Burgundavia> mdke, the one in svn?
[04:18] <mdke> Burgundavia, on the wiki page
[04:18] <mdke> (the styleguide spec)
[04:18] <Burgundavia> where?
[04:18] <mdke> erm
[04:18] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuidePlan?highlight=%28styleguide%29
[04:18] <mdke> StyleGuide i guess, not sure
[04:19] <mdke> yeah StyleGuide
[04:19] <Burgundavia> geez
[04:19] <Burgundavia> that is quite long
[04:19] <mdke> only the document plan section is what I was thinking of
[04:20] <mdke> 1-9
[04:22] <Burgundavia> done
[04:22] <Burgundavia> I am wondering about playing games
[04:23] <Burgundavia> maybe we should promote some simple games and move cedega to the users guide
[04:24] <mdke> lincity
[04:24] <mdke> freeciv
[04:24] <mdke> supertux
[04:24] <mdke> :)
[04:24] <Burgundavia> ya
[04:24] <mdke> tuxracer
[04:25] <Burgundavia> so the only games that are in the faq guide must come out of an Ubuntu repo
[04:25] <Burgundavia> how does that sound for a principal?
[04:25] <Burgundavia> s/principal/principle
[04:25] <mdke> not sure
[04:26] <mdke> best get your heads together with mgalvin and rob^ 
[04:26] <mdke> --> bed
[04:26] <Burgundavia> mgalvin is already here
[04:26] <Burgundavia> rob^, ping
[04:27] <mgalvin> i would say stick with stuff in the repos
[04:30] <Burgundavia> I like agreement
[04:30] <Burgundavia> this faq guide is going to rock
[04:31] <mgalvin> rock on :)
[04:32] <Burgundavia> tomorrow I will solicit opininion from the NUN people
[04:45] <robitaille> wow...the wiki Java page is really simpler now :)  I'm about to replace my IBM Java plugins by Sun's.
[04:45] <Burgundavia> yes, the wiki is truly coming along
[04:45] <Burgundavia> a some point I am going to cleanup bittorrent
[04:45] <Burgundavia> as that doesn't promote our built-in bittorrent stuff
[04:47] <HrdwrBoB> mdke: ok :)
[04:47] <Burgundavia> robitaille, do you have comments on the FAQGuideReSpec
[04:47] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, nice work with the mplayer page, btw
[04:48] <HrdwrBoB> cheers
[04:48] <robitaille> Burgundavia:  haven't had time to look at it yet;  I'll take a look within the hour (after I put the kids to bed)
[04:49] <Burgundavia> ok
[04:49] <mgalvin> Burgundavia: great it would be nice to hear their comments and suggestions (the NUN)
[04:49] <Burgundavia> yes
[04:50] <Burgundavia> as they are the ones that are going to be helping people when our docs fail
[04:50] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, you want to do something else?
[04:51] <jsgotangco> mgalvin: nice spec
[04:51] <Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
[04:51] <jsgotangco> salug
[04:51] <HrdwrBoB> Burgundavia: yeah what needs going
[04:51] <HrdwrBoB> er doing
[04:52] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, the FileCompression page should be reorg to be by file format
[04:52] <Burgundavia> in alphabetical order
[04:52] <Burgundavia> hmm, do it by extension or by name?
[04:53] <HrdwrBoB> is a table of contents recommended
[04:53] <HrdwrBoB> extension
[04:53] <Burgundavia> absolutely
[04:53] <HrdwrBoB> I've generally been putting them
[04:53] <HrdwrBoB>  in
[04:53] <Burgundavia> make the title Firefox extensions (.xpi)
[04:53] <Burgundavia> of something
[04:54] <Burgundavia> I trust your judgement
[04:54] <HrdwrBoB> cool
[04:54] <robitaille> FAQGuideReSpec:  should we promote ways of getting "live" help:  IRC, mailing list? A "How to get help from the community" section?
[04:54] <Burgundavia> robitaille, good idea
[04:55] <Burgundavia> place at the end?
[04:55] <Burgundavia> 2nd item?
[04:56] <robitaille> near the top is probably better
[04:56] <Burgundavia> added at the end
[04:56] <robitaille> :)
[04:56] <Burgundavia> 2nd item after updating?
[04:57] <robitaille> sounds good.
[04:57] <Burgundavia> done
[04:58] <Burgundavia> robitaille, what do you think of "keeping your machine updated"?
[04:58] <Burgundavia> think it should be software or Ubuntu?
[04:59] <robitaille> Ubuntu.  Sounds more friendly considering what Aunt Tilley knows
[04:59] <Burgundavia> your Ubuntu or just Ubuntu?
[04:59] <robitaille> your
[04:59] <mgalvin> jsgotangco: thnx, good job by Burgundavia too
[05:00] <Burgundavia> mgalvin, my crazy idea. I just need people to buy into it
[05:00] <Burgundavia> cause if nobody buys in, it is just a crazy idea
[05:01] <Burgundavia> I am debating 3D acceleration
[05:01] <Burgundavia> nah, I will keep it
[05:01] <robitaille> I think 3D should go....a bit too technical.
[05:01] <jsgotangco> 3D acceleration in Ubuntu? what for?
[05:01] <mgalvin> i think we need that
[05:01] <Burgundavia> ok, it will die
[05:01] <Burgundavia> hmm
[05:01] <robitaille> Something about Gaim?  Remember jdub 10x10 talk and girls who like IM?
[05:01] <mgalvin> er, um well on second thought
[05:02] <jsgotangco> acceleration is usually a domain in games which is not our core compentency imo
[05:02] <Burgundavia> yes
[05:02] <robitaille> unless any of the game you are going to talk about need 3D acceleration?
[05:02] <mgalvin> it is to technical for our target audience
[05:02] <HrdwrBoB> someone who wants 3D has more technical ability
[05:03] <jsgotangco> robitaille: it would be quite a few, since you can count on your fingers native linux games that need acceleration
[05:03] <HrdwrBoB> ie: they will actively go and look for more help
[05:03] <Burgundavia> robitaille, we will just avoid it
[05:03] <mgalvin> possibly refer people to some other doc that discusses it so the brave noobs know where to look
[05:03] <robitaille> good.  I never play games under Ubuntu :)
[05:03] <Burgundavia> in the playing games section we can mention it
[05:03] <HrdwrBoB> heh, I do
[05:03] <robitaille> and my 1997 graphic card doesn't do 3D anyway :)
[05:04] <Burgundavia> I need another term like "Surfing the internet"
[05:04] <robitaille> Travelling on the information superhighway? :)
[05:04] <Burgundavia> that encompasses email, the internet and gaim
[05:05] <mgalvin> Using the Internet
[05:05] <Burgundavia> but I changed the firefox section to be Surfing the Internet
[05:08] <Burgundavia> ok latest up
[05:08] <jsgotangco> brb i gotta start work
[05:10] <Burgundavia> rofl --> IIIEars gentoo is the reason bayer sells aspirin
[05:14] <Burgundavia> alright, the ReSpec has been spent to pass the parents test
[05:14] <Burgundavia> s/spent/sent
[05:15] <mgalvin> its gone
[05:15] <Burgundavia> huh?
[05:15] <Burgundavia> rob^, ping
[05:16] <Burgundavia> rob^, deleted it for some reason
[05:16] <mgalvin> its back, hmm
[05:16] <Burgundavia> I just reverted it
[05:16] <mgalvin> k
[05:16] <Burgundavia> that is what rob said --> Removing content as it is not applicable to the FAQ Guide yet
[05:17] <mgalvin> i saw that
[05:17] <Burgundavia> no idea
[05:17] <Burgundavia> he sounded annoyed that he had not been consulted
[05:17] <Burgundavia> I thought I was pretty clear it was a work in progress
[05:23] <Burgundavia> ok, that i odd
[05:24] <Burgundavia> now it shows robert editing twice and me reverting twice
[05:24] <Burgundavia> which I haven't done
[05:30] <Burgundavia> rob^, please stop reverting the page. Lets talk
[05:35] <HrdwrBoB> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FileCompression
[05:35] <HrdwrBoB> that's a lot better, still needs a littel bit of fixing
[05:37] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, cheers that looks great
[05:37] <Burgundavia> what about swapping archive and non-archive formats?
[05:38] <HrdwrBoB> I put nonarchive formats first because that way people might realise that it's not really an archive
[05:39] <HrdwrBoB> and odds are on entry they will see what they want in the contents, and click straight to there
[05:40] <Burgundavia> true
[05:41] <Burgundavia> minor other quibble with the commandline stuff
[05:41] <Burgundavia> I split it out to make it clear that it could be done by the gui
[05:41] <Burgundavia> you might want to do that again
[05:42] <HrdwrBoB> so make the command line usage under a next level header
[05:42] <Burgundavia> I would put the commandline is a seperate section
[05:42] <Burgundavia> so you would have 3 sections
[05:42] <Burgundavia> non-archive, archive and command line
[05:43] <HrdwrBoB> I'm not sure that would be more useful
[05:44] <HrdwrBoB> the tar/targz/tarbz2 sections on the archive format thing effectively become irrelevant
[05:44] <Burgundavia> not really
[05:44] <mgalvin> Burgundavia, we are still going to keep the faqguide profiled right
[05:44] <Burgundavia> just that we are trying to promote the gui and a quick glance at the looks like the commandline is the only solution
[05:45] <Burgundavia> mgalvin, absolutely
[05:45] <mgalvin> ok, just making sure
[05:45] <HrdwrBoB> Burgundavia: hm.. perhaps a screenshot of archive manager and a bit about it would be better
[05:45] <Burgundavia> might be, hmm
[05:45] <HrdwrBoB> in the basic archives section, and rename that to 'Package Manager'
[05:46] <Burgundavia> maybe just get rid of the command line stuff?
[05:46] <HrdwrBoB> well if the target audience is mum and dad
[05:46] <HrdwrBoB> then yeah, we should really lose it altogether
[05:46] <Burgundavia> most of the wiki is
[05:47] <Burgundavia> because if you know about the commandline, you probably know about man pages
[05:47] <HrdwrBoB> mmmm based on my experience in #ubuntu I'd say possibly not :)
[05:47] <Burgundavia> ok
[05:47] <HrdwrBoB> I'll strip out most of the command line stuff in the indiviual sections
[05:48] <HrdwrBoB> and put in a section on basic command like usage
[05:48] <HrdwrBoB> line
[05:48] <Burgundavia> ya, that is what I was thinking
[05:48] <HrdwrBoB> rather than full examples etc
[06:07] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, what is your real name?
[06:07] <HrdwrBoB> MatthewParslow
[06:07] <Burgundavia> cheers
[06:07] <HrdwrBoB> that's who's been editing all the pages :)
[06:08] <Burgundavia> ya, just remembered that
[06:08] <Burgundavia> had a bit of a bad day
[06:09] <HrdwrBoB> I've added some screenshots to that page - they're not overly useful but I think they will make people feel good
[06:09] <Burgundavia> cool
[06:09] <Burgundavia> I just reworked GettingUbuntu
[06:09] <Burgundavia> you might want to take a quick peer
[06:10] <HrdwrBoB>  If you have a 64 bit system, you need AMD64 install CD
[06:10] <HrdwrBoB> that's not strictly true, and in many cases a 32 bit system is easier :)
[06:11] <thechitowncubs> Hey everyone
[06:11] <Burgundavia> ok
[06:11] <Burgundavia> salut thechitowncubs 
[06:11] <mgalvin> hi thechitowncubs
[06:12] <Burgundavia> mgalvin, mind if you respond to rob as well
[06:12] <Burgundavia> as you have been doing work
[06:13] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, I really like the first screenshot
[06:13] <Burgundavia> that makes it easy
[06:13] <HrdwrBoB> yeah
[06:13] <Burgundavia> I wish gnome would move the special actions farther up the menu
[06:16] <mgalvin> Burgundavia, i do not mind, please feel free to respond
[06:17] <Burgundavia> mgalvin, no, I was asking if you would respond as well
[06:17] <thechitowncubs> what are tonights focus of labor?
[06:17] <Burgundavia> bittorrent needs rewrite
[06:17] <Burgundavia> to basically say that hoary and breezy just do it
[06:17] <Burgundavia> how to set it up in warty
[06:17] <Burgundavia> and advanced clients
[06:18] <thechitowncubs> I was just looking at that page :)
[06:18] <thechitowncubs> alright, i'll work on bt
[06:18] <Burgundavia> cheers
[06:19] <mgalvin> Burgundavia, i did
[06:19] <Burgundavia> mgalvin, thanks
[06:19] <mgalvin> np
[06:19] <mgalvin> did you see my response?
[06:20] <Burgundavia> the one where you started the thread?
[06:21] <mgalvin> no b/c he didn't reply to that one, i replyed to Sec: Unclassified Ubuntu FAQ Guide changes
[06:22] <Burgundavia> ok
[06:22] <Burgundavia> thechitowncubs, what is your wikiname?
[06:27] <mgalvin> ok, time for bed, g'night guys, see y'all tomorrow
[06:27] <mgalvin> zzzZZZzzzZZZzzz
[06:27] <Burgundavia> night
[06:28] <thechitowncubs> JohnLambrechts
[06:28] <Burgundavia> cheers
[06:30] <HrdwrBoB> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FileCompression
[06:30] <HrdwrBoB> There, that's better
[06:31] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, that is great
[06:33] <HrdwrBoB> There needs to be a basic terminal how to page
[06:33] <HrdwrBoB> I've looked for one on several occasions, so I'm going to make one :)
[06:33] <Burgundavia> yes
[06:34] <Burgundavia> discuss histroy basically
[06:34] <Burgundavia> and ctrl-r searching
[06:34] <HrdwrBoB> I was thinking basic basics
[06:34] <HrdwrBoB> how to open a terminal
[06:34] <HrdwrBoB> getting around
[06:34] <Burgundavia> oh, that basic
[06:34] <HrdwrBoB> in many entries on wikis that are aimed at newbies
[06:35] <HrdwrBoB> it says "open a terminal"
[06:35] <HrdwrBoB> "run this in a termina"
[06:35] <HrdwrBoB> but nowhere does it say what that is
[06:35] <HrdwrBoB> or how to do it
[06:35] <Burgundavia> hopefully, not as many as a few days ago
[06:35] <HrdwrBoB> yeah
[06:35] <HrdwrBoB> but for now, there's still quite a lot
[06:36] <HrdwrBoB> but even where it's presented as an alternative
[06:36] <HrdwrBoB> we want people to be able to learn about that if they want
[06:36] <HrdwrBoB> should I create it called Terminal or TerminalHowto or what
[06:36] <Burgundavia> TerminalHowto
[06:48] <rob^> right, home from work finally
[06:49] <Burgundavia> cheers
[06:49] <rob^> hmm, matts not here
[06:50] <Burgundavia> no he left about 20 minutes ago
[06:50] <rob^> ok
[06:51] <Burgundavia> did you want to talk about the FAQGuideReSpec
[06:51] <rob^> well I need to talk to matt about it really
[06:51] <rob^> but regarding that
[06:52] <rob^> you do realise it started as an exact copy of ubuntuguide.org, right?
[06:52] <Burgundavia> yes
[06:52] <Burgundavia> I was there in Mataro when the initial work was done
[06:52] <rob^> hence, its not docbook friendly
[06:53] <Burgundavia> thats is fine
[06:53] <rob^> and I dont apprciate you removing most of my changes to the spec either
[06:53] <Burgundavia> I gave a reason, and we (the various people in this channel) agree with them
[06:53] <Burgundavia> read the scrollback
[06:53] <Burgundavia> we had a long discussion about it
[06:54] <rob^> yes, without the person who wrote it
[06:54] <Burgundavia> wrote what?
[06:55] <rob^> you are basically telling me how to write it
[06:55] <Burgundavia> not really
[06:55] <rob^> yes really
[06:55] <Burgundavia> I pulled the latest source out of the cvs
[06:55] <rob^> and you dont contribute yourself
[06:55] <Burgundavia> and went, "where do we go with this"
[06:56] <Burgundavia> rob^, I just got my svn commit access back
[06:56] <rob^> right, how many times do I have to say "this is going to be changed"
[06:56] <Burgundavia> rob^, I looked at the exisiting doc and I don't think it really works as an FAQ guide
[06:56] <thechitowncubs> we don't need fighting
[06:56] <rob^> its in the comments of the faq guide, I have sent emails regarding it, we discussed it a little at the last meeting
[06:56] <Burgundavia> yes, I read those
[06:57] <rob^> Burgundavia, right, thats why the comments are there
[06:57] <Burgundavia> then I spoke to matt
[06:57] <Burgundavia> and he and I chatted about a re spec
[06:57] <rob^> we just havent done it *yet*
[06:57] <thechitowncubs> we need resolution not fighting
[06:57] <Burgundavia> and then I created the wiki page and we started hacking on it
[06:57] <Burgundavia> this is NOT just my idea
[06:57] <rob^> right, then when I added a few changes, they were pretty much removed
[06:58] <rob^> something like that need to be done with everyone involved
[06:58] <Burgundavia> it has been
[06:58] <rob^> esp someone who has been working on it alot
[06:59] <rob^> no, it hasnt. All I got was "hey, here is this thing we did"
[06:59] <Burgundavia> sorry you got that impression
[06:59] <Burgundavia> that was not intended
[06:59] <rob^> when I added a few changes, they were dismissed
[07:00] <rob^> your not even responsible for the guide at the moment
[07:00] <Burgundavia> matt and I hacked on it and then I posted something to the list, asking for ideas
[07:00] <Burgundavia> no, I am not
[07:00] <rob^> right
[07:00] <Burgundavia> I was going to, but I didn't have commit access and thus declined
[07:00] <rob^> I will talk about it with matt the next time I see him on here
[07:00] <rob^> you dont need commit access to contribute
[07:01] <Burgundavia> please don't just blank the spec
[07:01] <rob^> until I talk with him and we work out a compromise, I am going to disregard the spec
[07:01] <Burgundavia> please don't do that
[07:01] <Burgundavia> lets works this out
[07:01] <rob^> I'm not happy about this whole thing to be honest
[07:02] <Burgundavia> what would you like to see?
[07:03] <Burgundavia> I am trying to present a consistent vision
[07:03] <rob^> brb son hurt himself
[07:08] <Burgundavia> for our XP iso burning stuff, should we promote installation of random software?
[07:12] <rob^> ok back
[07:16] <rob^> well, was..
[07:16] <rob^> bbl
[07:18] <Burgundavia> rob^, we are going to need to resolve this dispute
[07:20] <rob^> a little respect for others will go a long way
[07:20] <Burgundavia> I am sorry I offended you, it was not my intention
[07:20] <Burgundavia> matt and I happened to click on the topic and it snowballed
[07:21] <rob^> yes, and I appreciate help
[07:21] <rob^> but I dont like being told what to do
[07:21] <Burgundavia> I looked at the document as it stood and was worried about a consistent vision
[07:22] <thechitowncubs> can i ask what document you are talking about and i can give my unbiased point of view?
[07:22] <Burgundavia> sure
[07:22] <rob^> yes, but had you have looked at it in a couple of days time, you would have probably not had the same impression
[07:22] <Burgundavia> FAQGuideReSpec
[07:22] <Burgundavia> on the wii
[07:22] <Burgundavia> rob^, then lets work within the spec that Matt and I generated
[07:22] <Burgundavia> and others worked on
[07:22] <rob^> the reason that the FAQ guide is in the state its in is because I have a full time job I need to be at
[07:23] <Burgundavia> indeed
[07:24] <Burgundavia> I am interested in your overal vision
[07:24] <rob^> my plan for the next few days was to compleatly restructure the FAQ Guide
[07:24] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:24] <rob^> (its friday today)
[07:24] <Burgundavia> good timing
[07:24] <Burgundavia> now we can work together
[07:25] <rob^> well, the thing is once I had done that, you wouldnt have said what you just did
[07:25] <Burgundavia> I am going to take that spec to the NewUsersNetwork to get their ideas at their meeting tomorrow
[07:25] <Burgundavia> I never had any intention of taking over
[07:25] <rob^> I dont think nun needs to be involved until we have something we might consider releasing 
[07:26] <Burgundavia> not really
[07:26] <Burgundavia> I am asking their opinions
[07:26] <rob^> yes, but we need to have more then just a layout plan before asking for opinions
[07:26] <rob^> thats not even finalised yet
[07:26] <rob^> mainly due to this
[07:26] <Burgundavia> we have a spec
[07:27] <Burgundavia> that we are working on
[07:27] <Burgundavia> now is the perfect time to ask as many people as possible
[07:27] <rob^> you do realise the FAQ Guide is more then just an faq guide for Ubuntu
[07:27] <Burgundavia> huh?
[07:28] <Burgundavia> can you elaborate?
[07:28] <rob^> theres a kde profile in there and others
[07:28] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:28] <Burgundavia> the profile will remain
[07:28] <Burgundavia> I have no idea where that idea came from
[07:28] <rob^> at this stage I can only see us having a Ubuntu version for Breezy
[07:28] <rob^> there is still a lot of work to be done
[07:28] <Burgundavia> that is why we need a clear roadmap
[07:29] <Burgundavia> hence the spec
[07:29] <rob^> yes, but the spec doesn't take into account the fact that the faq guide originated from ubuntuguide.org
[07:29] <rob^> its like proposing a whole new document
[07:29] <Burgundavia> yes it is
[07:30] <Burgundavia> ubuntuguide is not useful as an FAQ guide
[07:30] <Burgundavia> to be honest
[07:30] <rob^> right, but never the less thats where it came from
[07:30] <Burgundavia> I was there when we profiled the ubuntuguide and converted it into docbook
[07:30] <rob^> I dont like it either, but I have and still am working to change that
[07:30] <Burgundavia> then why object to the spec?
[07:30] <rob^> things like this spec are just adding more work 
[07:31] <Burgundavia> no they are not
[07:31] <Burgundavia> they are provided a clear roadmap, so many people can work on it
[07:31] <rob^> ok
[07:32] <rob^> I need to have a bigger imput into it
[07:32] <rob^> input ^
[07:32] <Burgundavia> ok, go nuts
[07:32] <rob^> simply
[07:32] <rob^> as I have done most of the work to take it from ubuntuguide.org until now
[07:32] <rob^> I was happy to go along with a "spec"
[07:32] <Burgundavia> yes, I recognize that
[07:33] <rob^> until all my changes were pretty much removed from it
[07:33] <rob^> the only changes I made were to align the spec with what the document acutally is
[07:33] <Burgundavia> we are promoting the Ubuntu best practices
[07:33] <Burgundavia> nautlius does ftp
[07:33] <Burgundavia> evo over tbird
[07:33] <rob^> yes, but its not optimal
[07:34] <Burgundavia> editing gconf is not somethign that should in a faqguide
[07:34] <rob^> I was the one who added nautlius and ftp to the doc
[07:34] <Burgundavia> cedega is going into the users guide
[07:34] <rob^> as for gconf, that is why we have gTweakUI
[07:34] <Burgundavia> that is crack
[07:34] <Burgundavia> there is no need to bother new users with that stuff
[07:34] <rob^> right, but a frequently asked question is "how do I play my windows games"
[07:34] <Burgundavia> for some
[07:35] <Burgundavia> the doc is bigger than #ubuntu
[07:35] <Burgundavia> I am shooting for Aunt Tillie and my step-mother
[07:35] <rob^> for Ubuntu's target users
[07:35] <Burgundavia> who could care less about windows games
[07:35] <rob^> most of which are migrating from windows
[07:35] <rob^> want to play windows games
[07:35] <Burgundavia> a select few
[07:35] <rob^> you are wrong
[07:35] <rob^> many do
[07:36] <Burgundavia> cedega is also really not easy to setup
[07:36] <rob^> its why a lot of people dont change or still dual boot
[07:36] <Burgundavia> needs its own guide
[07:36] <rob^> maybe, but it still needs to be addressed in the faq
[07:36] <Burgundavia> there will be a line in the games section
[07:36] <rob^> all thats there now is a link to a guide to install cedega
[07:36] <Burgundavia> pointing at the user guide
[07:37] <Burgundavia> which will go into windows games and ubuntu
[07:37] <rob^> yes
[07:37] <rob^> a link is fine
[07:37] <rob^> thats whats there now
[07:37] <Burgundavia> no
[07:37] <Burgundavia> you have a section
[07:37] <Burgundavia> the spec is sections and subsections
[07:37] <rob^> all the section was going to contain was a quick blurb and a link to a proper guide
[07:38] <Burgundavia> what appears on the left, not what appears on the right
[07:38] <rob^> the faq needs to be short
[07:38] <Burgundavia> that can be done from the main games section
[07:38] <rob^> and simple
[07:38] <Burgundavia> I agree
[07:38] <Burgundavia> that is why I removed some things that you added in
[07:38] <Burgundavia> they are not short or simple
[07:39] <rob^> look, this is going no where. you wont even listen to me here let alone on the spec
[07:39] <Burgundavia> dude, gconf and gtweakui is a power user thing
[07:39] <rob^> I'll discuss this further with matt
[07:39] <rob^> cya
[07:40] <Burgundavia> rob^, what do you want to add back in?
[07:40] <Burgundavia> lets talk specifics
[07:41] <Burgundavia> salut venda 
[07:42] <venda> morn
[07:42] <Burgundavia> rob^ and I are having a disagreement about the FAQGuideReSpec
[07:42] <venda> k
[07:42] <Burgundavia> wondered if you would take a look
[07:43] <venda> what's the disagree
[07:43] <Burgundavia> I don't really know
[07:43] <venda> so what am I looking for :-)
[07:43] <Burgundavia> matt galvin and I did some brainstorming
[07:43] <Burgundavia> we came up with this spec
[07:44] <Burgundavia> you have probably seen the mailing list stuff
[07:44] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FAQGuideReSpec
[07:44] <Burgundavia> rob did some editing, adding a few things from the existing faq guide
[07:44] <Burgundavia> I disagreed with some and removed them
[07:45] <Burgundavia> citing a reason in the diff
[07:45] <Burgundavia> then he blanked it
[07:45] <Burgundavia> so I am trying to figure out a common ground
[07:46] <venda> carry on just reading the spec
[07:48] <venda> I don't understand that outline. It reads like a User Manual, not a FAQ
[07:49] <venda> this I mean https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FAQGuideReSpec
[07:49] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:49] <Burgundavia> I imagined each page as less than one screen
[07:49] <venda> You want FAQ to be a User Manual
[07:49] <Burgundavia> no
[07:50] <Burgundavia> those are frequently asked questions
[07:50] <Burgundavia> How do I create a dvd?
[07:50] <Burgundavia> etc.
[07:50] <Burgundavia> the most common stumbling blocks
[07:50] <Burgundavia> notice I add printers but not scanners
[07:51] <venda> Um FAQ is Question and Answer
[07:51] <venda> You can have divs between sections
[07:51] <Burgundavia> it is
[07:51] <Burgundavia> add How do I in front of each subsection
[07:52] <venda> Hold I must open the FAQ
[07:53] <Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
[07:54] <jsgotangco> salut
[07:54] <venda> Burgundavia: you are proposing a very big change
[07:54] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:55] <venda> Burgundavia: rob^ has been hard at work for a few weeks now
[07:55] <Burgundavia> I just got commit access back, so I intend to do a lot of the writing, as well
[07:55] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, got an email from mdz on PDATesting, we're set but we have a very conservative baseline target
[07:55] <Burgundavia> I realize that
[07:55] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, ok
[07:55] <Burgundavia> so has mgalvin
[07:55] <jsgotangco> venda, hello
[07:55] <jsgotangco> wow thats nice
[07:55] <venda> Burgundavia: but rob^ has done the most
[07:55] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:56] <Burgundavia> he and I are trying to work out what the issues is
[07:56] <venda> mgalvin has done lots on user guide
[07:56] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what is nice?
[07:56] <venda> jsgotangco: hello
[07:56] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, getting commit access again
[07:56] <Burgundavia> ah
[07:57] <Burgundavia> venda, I had always intended to do this to the faq gude, just I was lazy about getting my commit access back
[07:57] <jsgotangco> i was playing around with Picasa on an xp box and i'm just at awe at what it can do
[07:57] <venda> Burgundavia: I would not make any dramatic changes without buyin from rob^ . He is the defacto document owner at present
[07:57] <venda> Burgundavia: lazy yes
[07:58] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:58] <Burgundavia> I just wanted your opinion
[07:58] <venda> Burgundavia: lazy does not mean you can just decide to do it now
[07:58] <Burgundavia> well, I have done what I think the faq needs
[07:58] <venda> Burgundavia: I think there may be a middle ground
[07:59] <jsgotangco> just sort things out between the two of you and im sure there is an acceptable compromise for both
[07:59] <venda> Burgundavia: sure, but always need to consider other authors
[07:59] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:59] <Burgundavia> not everything on that page is mine
[07:59] <Burgundavia> there is considerable input for mgalvin and rob
[08:00] <venda> Burgundavia: just a sec I wont to show you something
[08:07] <Burgundavia> venda, I have to go, pm me with it
[08:08] <venda> Burgundavia: update to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FAQGuideReSpec
[08:08] <venda> The outline now is designed to encompass a much larger set of questions
[08:09] <Burgundavia> umm, what is the stuff you pasted?
[08:09] <Burgundavia> the original toc?
[08:09] <venda> end of page
[08:09] <venda> that is the current outline
[08:09] <Burgundavia> ah
[08:09] <Burgundavia> thought as much
[08:09] <venda> The categories are much broader in perspective
[08:10] <venda> It helps to see them side by side
[08:10] <Burgundavia> yes
[08:10] <venda> The titles are short
[08:10] <venda> Rapid Information Retrieval
[08:10] <Burgundavia> totally useless for your average desktop user, IMHO
[08:10] <Burgundavia> installing printer vs. Hardware
[08:11] <Burgundavia> umm..
[08:11] <venda> when people search they look for keywords and categories
[08:11] <Burgundavia> anyway, I really have to go
[08:11] <venda> fine
[08:11] <Burgundavia> post to the list
[08:11] <Burgundavia> I am trying my new toc on my parents 
[08:11] <Burgundavia> see what they think
[08:11] <venda> I think you should follow rob^ 
[08:12] <venda> sorry
[08:12] <Burgundavia> to be honest, I am not going to blindly follow somebody
[08:12] <Burgundavia> I didn't see a whole document visiion
[08:12] <Burgundavia> so I provided one
[08:12] <venda> Burgundavia:  he has done bulk of the work
[08:12] <venda> an dhe has a vision
[08:12] <Burgundavia> yes, but see above
[08:13] <venda> now you come in an dwant to turn that upside down
[08:13] <venda> I don't think it is helpful
[08:13] <Burgundavia> no
[08:13] <venda> not now
[08:13] <Burgundavia> I provided a vision
[08:13] <Burgundavia> I asked for his input
[08:13] <Burgundavia> and others
[08:13] <Burgundavia> and that was incorporated
[08:13] <venda> some weeks back when we asked for people to own docs
[08:13] <venda> that would have been a good time for discussion
[08:14] <Burgundavia> I considered our release cycle when I did this
[08:14] <venda> but rob^ has put in major work and nobody contested. Now to make a big change, like you are asking, no matter how good the idea. I s not right
[08:14] <Burgundavia> sep8 is when we stop writing
[08:14] <Burgundavia> venda, that is total crack
[08:15] <Burgundavia> and leads to bad docs
[08:15] <venda> Burgundavia: you have sat on the side for weeks
[08:15] <venda> and said nothing
[08:15] <venda> you have not done a commit in weeks
[08:15] <Burgundavia> if someone said to me that what I was writing was crack, then I would say ok
[08:15] <Burgundavia> provide me a better alternative
[08:15] <venda> he has been working hard
[08:15] <Burgundavia> that is what I have done
[08:15] <venda> changes are good, but not a revolution
[08:16] <Burgundavia> I saw no communicated vision
[08:16] <Burgundavia> we have a wiki for a reason
[08:16] <Burgundavia> if a spec had existed, I would have posted an email asking about certain changes
[08:17] <Burgundavia> ok, I am off
[08:17] <Burgundavia> will be back tomorrow for the NUN meeting
[08:58] <sivang> Burgundavia: what is the NUM meeting?
[08:58] <sivang> venda: 'sup Shawn ?
[09:03] <robitaille> sivang:  NewUserNetwork Meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NUNAgenda
[09:31] <sivang> robitaille: what is the NUM all about? helping new users?
[09:34] <robitaille> sivang:  I'm not that familiar with their actitivities, but it seems it is a group of people that want to help new users 
[09:34] <robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUsersNetworkGuidelines
[09:35] <rob^> except some of them seem to think they are a group of people who tell docteam members what to do
[09:35] <robitaille> "The Aim of the Ubuntu New User Project is to try and help new Ubuntu Users get to grips with Ubuntu. Members of the New User Network will spend a lot of time on IRC, the forums and the mailinglists."
[09:36] <robitaille> I think the problem arose when they starting writing up wiki documents for new users; creating  a duplication of effort.
[12:02] <rob^> is anyone here?
[12:04] <rob^> aww come on!
[12:08] <rob^> I could really use some docbook advice
[12:08] <rob^> never mind
[12:08] <rob^> I figured it out :)
[12:37] <mdke> venda, agree with you.
[12:37] <mdke> corey has done this a little bit disruptively
[01:01] <rob^> yes
[01:03] <mdke> rob^, get together with those guys and have your input on the spec
[01:03] <rob^> yeah I tried that
[01:04] <rob^> corey basically ignored me
[01:04] <mdke> comments like this worry me a bit
[01:04] <mdke>         <!-- Despite the so called "spec", this will be done differently. A proper spec will be done at a later date -->
[01:04] <mdke> any division needs to be ended quickly and resolved
[01:05] <rob^> I know, but I dont want people editing it going off the spec that was done, as I have had no input into it
[01:05] <rob^> and corey wont accept any from me either
[01:06] <rob^> as it is the spec thats been done looks more like a userguide then a simple faq
[01:06] <rob^> and it addresses nothing in the faq guide
[01:06] <mdke> i haven't looked at it
[01:06] <rob^> its almost like saying "lets scrap all that and start again"
[01:06] <rob^> and I dont agree with it
[01:06] <mdke> that is what he is saying maybe
[01:06] <mdke> listen, the important thing is to get this resolved
[01:07] <mdke> we can mediate and you can sort it out with corey. but the important thing is that you can discuss it with mgalvin
[01:07] <mdke> k?
[01:07] <rob^> yes, I want to, but I'm not going to be told "this is how it is, like it or lump it" when I have done most of the work
[01:07] <rob^> I plan on discussing this with matt when I see him on here next
[01:08] <rob^> as I pointed out to corey today
[01:08] <mdke> good
[01:08] <mdke> it will be ok
[01:08] <rob^> froud, I agree
[01:08] <mdke> corey has a tendency to be too "final" in his comments
[01:08] <mdke> mgalvin and rob are leads
[01:09] <froud> rob^ leads it, he has the most work
[01:09] <mdke> they should talk, if necessary with the input of others in the team.
[01:09] <mdke> but I agree, those who do the work, have the most say
[01:09] <froud> rob^: I think there is some merit in what is being proposed. I think it is up to you to decide how much of the proposal you will accept.
[01:09] <mdke> but the aim of us all here is to make the most useful document for all
[01:09] <rob^> with my latest commit, it solves most of the problems corey is pointing out anyway
[01:10] <mdke> i also think there is merit in the proposal, but I believe in communication and I know that this problem can be resolved
[01:10] <rob^> I would have done this 2 days ago, but I do have a job
[01:10] <rob^> whist I'm happy to accept comments and critisims, theres a right way and wrong way to do it
[01:10] <rob^> and corey compleatly overstepped the mark
[01:11] <froud> rob^: you lead it, but stay open to channels. You have the final say until release on this document. After release, it becomes anybodys game again.
[01:11] <rob^> froud, agreed
[01:12] <mdke> as i said, corey has a tendency to be very "final" in his remarks
[01:12] <rob^> froud, and I'm happy to accept help in the mean time, but it needs to help not hinder
[01:12] <mdke> don't take it personally
[01:12] <froud> rob^: you seem to have already made a compromise with your last patch. This is good, because it does indicate that you are willing to work with outhers
[01:12] <rob^> froud, yes
[01:12] <rob^> froud, its something I have been working on paper anyway and some of the idea comes from what he said
[01:12] <froud> rob^: all that remains is for others o respect your position and main commiter on that document
[01:13] <froud> postion as main
[01:13] <rob^> oh, and I appreciate you all standing behind me on this as you have done
[01:13] <rob^> thanks
[01:14] <froud> rob^: you are doing a fantastic job.
[01:14] <froud> Until you, nobody was doing anything
[01:14] <rob^> yeah, I know
[01:14] <mdke> of course we will stand behind the person doing the work
[01:14] <mdke> but ideas are good, even if corey in this case has handled it badly
[01:15] <froud> rob^: however, there is some positive in their proposal
[01:15] <rob^> froud, I know
[01:15] <froud> rob^: first it shows that they do care
[01:15] <mdke> we should be working more as a team on specs, because the books we produce affect directly the documentation as a whole
[01:15] <rob^> and I have recognised this with him
[01:15] <mdke> [OT]  where are the cron logs?
[01:16] <froud> rob^: second it shows that people do want to help, but are lacking direction
[01:16] <rob^> in fact, at first I took a look at what he put on that page, and made a few suggestions of my own. 
[01:16] <froud> rob^: I think that you can help channel their energy into a positive direction that is good for everyone
[01:17] <rob^> its when corey compleatly removed all my suggestions and even my name from the page is when I became annoyed
[01:17] <rob^> thats the only reason I took the stand I did
[01:17] <mdke> ouch
[01:17] <froud> rob^: I don't thin kitmatters now much
[01:17] <mdke> we'll talk to him, ok?
[01:17] <rob^> ok
[01:18] <mdke> froud, can you help me on something?
[01:19] <froud> rob^: what matters is that you remain focused and resolute on your target. Perhaps express your vision to people, embrace some of their ideas and find a new goal, focus and vision that encompasses the group of people willing to help
[01:19] <mdke> i setup a cron job on the docteam server and I can't tell if its working or not
[01:19] <mdke> where are the damn logs?
[01:19] <froud> syslog no?
[01:20] <mdke> lemme see
[01:20] <rob^> hmm
[01:21] <mdke> hmm indeed
[01:21] <rob^> I agree, my day job is heavily teamwork-focused, I am an expert at it
[01:22] <mdke> i don't think the cronjob has worked
[01:22] <froud> mdke: does not look like it :-)
[01:23] <rob^> I'm going to attempt to update the spec page with a few things, I am willing to work together so long as other are also
[01:23] <rob^> ^others
[01:23] <froud> fair enough, go for it. :-)
[01:24] <mdke> rob^, if you like you can create a /talk page for the spec and add comments
[01:24] <rob^> yeah, I might do
[01:24] <mdke> ok what have i done wrong. I did "crontab -e" as the relevant user, and added the following:
[01:25] <mdke> 0 2 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up
[01:25] <mdke> 0 4 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/gnome && make all && cd ../build && cp -R gnome/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
[01:25] <mdke> 0 6 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde && make kall && cd ../build && cp -R kde/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
[01:25] <mdke> doesn't look like cron is even trying to use it
[01:26] <mpt> Burgundavia: I can understand the existence of (1) an "Ubuntu Manual" for non-admins, designed for print, (2) an "Ubuntu Admin Guide", designed for print, and (3) Ubuntu Help, designed for online use
[01:26] <mpt> I'm not sure how the "Quick" Guide fits in to that
[01:27] <mpt> Perrhaps it could be the basis for the Ubuntu Manual.
[01:27] <mgalvin> hi all
[01:27] <mpt> Oh, and (4) a "Quick Reference" designed for print.
[01:27] <mpt> That would be a one-page guide.
[01:28] <mdke> mgalvin, perhaps you can have a chat with rob^ about this respec business
[01:28] <froud> mdke: there is no /var/log/cron and /var/log/messages says nothing
[01:28] <froud> well noting about crontab
[01:29] <mdke> froud, i looked in syslog, it notes the changes in crontab but nothing else
[01:29] <froud> yes, seems it did not run :-(
[01:29] <mdke> any idea why?
[01:29] <froud> but you ran it as your user
[01:30] <froud> your user has rights in /srv
[01:30] <froud> Hmm
[01:30] <mdke> hang on a tic
[01:30] <mdke> if you do "users" it doesn't show that user
[01:30] <mdke> also, henrik is gone
[01:30] <mdke> what has happened?
[01:35] <froud> youwant my thoughts?
[01:35] <mdke> sure
[01:35] <froud> we should enable /home/*/public_html
[01:36] <froud> in apache and let you run it from there
[01:36] <mdke> froud, what about thoughts on the current question?
[01:36] <mdke> we can discuss public_html
[01:36] <froud> at present, does you account have root
[01:36] <froud> full root
[01:37] <mdke> the account I'm running the cronjob on is called ubuntu-docs and it has no admin capability
[01:37] <froud> if not then how can you run a crontab
[01:37] <froud> that requires such permissions
[01:37] <mdke> cron jobs can be run by any users
[01:37] <froud> hence it fails
[01:37] <mdke> no it doesn't!
[01:37] <froud> yes you want to copy to srv/
[01:38] <froud> how can ubuntu-docs cp to srv?
[01:38] <mdke> because it owns the relevant folder
[01:38] <mdke> but that's not the point
[01:38] <mdke> the cron job is not running at all
[01:40] <mdke> but the strange thing is that there seems to be no user called ubuntu-docs
[01:40] <mdke> or henrik
[01:41] <mdke> although their home directories are still there
[01:46] <froud> mdke: I can't use -u
[01:47] <froud> trying to see cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u 
[01:48] <mdke> -u needs a user after it doesn't it?
[01:49] <mdke> and you need admin rights too i think
[01:49] <froud> sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$ cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u ubuntu-doc
[01:49] <froud> crontab:  user `ubuntu-doc' unknown
[01:49] <froud> sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$
[01:49] <mdke> ubuntu-docs
[01:50] <froud> sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$ cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs
[01:50] <froud> must be privileged to use -u
[01:50] <froud> sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$
[01:50] <mdke> yes
[01:50] <mdke> hang on
[01:51] <mdke> root@none:~ # cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs
[01:51] <mdke> crontab: usage error: no arguments permitted after this option
[01:52] <froud> exactly and that command works on my host
[01:52] <froud> without the user
[01:52] <froud> I can see all the crottabs on my machine
[01:52] <mdke> erm
[01:52] <mdke> root@none:~ # crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs
[01:52] <mdke> 0 2 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up
[01:52] <mdke> 0 4 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/gnome && make all && cd ../build && cp -R gnome/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
[01:52] <mdke> 0 6 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde && make kall && cd ../build && cp -R kde/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
[01:52] <mdke> the command is wrong dude
[01:53] <mdke> you run hoary on your host?
[01:53] <froud> yeah
[01:53] <mdke> hmm
[01:53] <froud> no my command is used to gather crontabs from all users
[01:54] <mdke> ok
[01:54] <mgalvin> mdke, yes rob^ and i will get together to talk about the repsec, i am on my way to work in a few min so we will be going over everything in a little while
[01:54] <mdke> mgalvin, great news
[01:54] <rob^> yeah
[01:55] <mdke> froud, i'll play around later and figure it out
[01:55] <mgalvin> bbl
[02:40] <mgalvin> back
[02:40] <rob^> cool
[03:15] <rob^> yes, so
[03:16] <rob^> the document outline is currently whats in svn
[03:34] <mgalvin> just a short recap, rob^ and I had a discussion(off channel) about what transpired yesterday which was forced quite a bit, we have resolved any and all concerns and will continue to move forward in a positve and constructive way, everyone(ESPECIALLY ALL of the most ACTIVE contributors) should be actively included in these types of discussions and developement, so lets get back to business together :)
[03:35] <rob^> yes, I agree
[03:44] <jjesse> are you guys talking about the changes to the FAQ guide
[03:44] <jjesse> cause i like how it looks
[03:45] <rob^> jjesse, have you see the latest one?
[03:45] <jjesse> i looked last night but was there a change made before 11pm EST
[03:46] <rob^> yeah, I have made a few big changes since
[03:46] <rob^> umm..
[03:47] <rob^> well if you look at svn now, you will see whats up to date :)
[03:47] <rob^> just build it
[03:49] <jjesse> ok checking it out
[03:49] <rob^> do you know when the live previews will work on DocteamProjects again?
[03:50] <rob^> (I realise they are in the process of changing servers)
[03:54] <jjesse> rob^ where in svn is that kept?
[03:54] <rob^> build/gnome/faqi386
[03:55] <rob^> or generic/faqguide/C/ for the .xml
[04:12] <mgalvin> hey rob^, what do you think about calling "Sound and Video" "Music and Movies", i am kindda partial to calling it that, that was my initial suggestion, seems a little more noob friendly imho
[04:12] <rob^> yeah its much of a muchness really
[04:12] <rob^> knock yourself out :P
[04:13] <rob^> (aussie humor)
[04:13] <mgalvin> :)
[04:14] <rob^> I'm about to send a msg to the list saying that comments on the spec should be sent to the list rather then edited on the wiki
[04:14] <rob^> this would exclude you and me however
[04:15] <mgalvin> ok
[04:15] <mgalvin> i feel so special ;)
[04:15] <rob^> cool
[04:15] <rob^> hehe
[04:19] <mgalvin> hey jsgotangco
[04:22] <jsgotangco> hey hows your day going
[04:24] <jsgotangco> hmmm why did the guy who filed in bugzilla sent it as documentation bug when its obviously hardware related
[04:24] <rob^> hehe yeah
[04:24] <rob^> the powerbook thing
[04:24] <mgalvin> pretty good, rob^ and I are pushing forward with the faqguide and i think some good progress is being made to resolve issues and make a rocking guide
[04:25] <jsgotangco> man the faqguide in svn is burning kudos to you rob^
[04:25] <rob^> :) thanks
[04:25] <jsgotangco> you too mgalvin
[04:26] <jsgotangco> i haven't been doing enough stuff lately because of issues at work and home
[04:26] <jsgotangco> i've been doing it in small patches though
[04:26] <mgalvin> thanks, rob^ has been blazing the trail recently and making great progress
[04:26] <jsgotangco> also have to make a main inclusion report after testing some stuff
[04:28] <jsgotangco> by chance is anyone here familiar with Oracle Applications? :)
[04:28] <rob^> no, sorry
[04:29] <mgalvin> i am a bit, whats up
[04:29] <jsgotangco> mgalvin: 11.5.9 you familiar with it
[04:29] <mgalvin> latest i have used extensively was 10g, but ask, maybe i can help
[04:30] <jsgotangco> (Oracle Financials)
[04:30] <jsgotangco> no, not the database
[04:30] <jsgotangco> Oracle 11i is E-Business suite using 9i db
[04:30] <mgalvin> no sorry, i have not used that one :-/
[04:31] <jsgotangco> its alright its kinda hard to look for people who worked with it really
[04:31] <jsgotangco> i usually talk to some indian at this time, but even we get conflicting solutions heh
[04:36] <jsgotangco> mgalvin: have you tried running 9i/10g in Ubuntu?
[04:36] <jsgotangco> (if its possible)
[04:37] <mgalvin> i haven't tried yet, but i have seen docs describing how to do it, i a pretty positive it should work
[04:38] <mgalvin> here is one
[04:38] <mgalvin> http://www.sussdorff.de/journal/one-entry?entry_id=27082
[04:38] <mgalvin> again, i haven't personally tired so, no promises
[04:39] <mgalvin> oracle docs also have lots of good stuff on what kernel params and such need to be set
[04:40] <jsgotangco> it would be interesting if ubuntu will push for support on such and oracle accepts
[04:40] <mgalvin> that would be pretty sweet
[04:40] <mgalvin> it would make ubuntu even more viable for enterprises
[04:41] <mgalvin> http://www.oracle-base.com/articles/10g/OracleDB10gInstallationOnFedora3.php
[04:41] <mgalvin> its for fedora, but just make appropriate path mods, etc...
[05:15] <mgalvin> rob^, you ok with moving installing flash into the internet section(seems more logical to me to put it there since it for inet stuff)
[05:15] <rob^> yeah, I wasnt sure on that one actually.
[05:16] <rob^> let me commit my change first
[05:16] <mgalvin> k
[05:17] <mgalvin> rob^, have you been using breezy at all yet?
[05:17] <rob^> I was before they broke x
[05:17] <mgalvin> hehe :)
[05:18] <mgalvin> i was thinking that we don't need mplayer and the mplayer plugin, totem provides these quite well now
[05:18] <mgalvin> i don't really like mplayer, but thats just my personal pref
[05:18] <mgalvin> totem, imho, is much nicer and easier to use
[05:19] <mgalvin> breezy already has totem and the totem plugin in it
[05:21] <rob^> yes I agree totem is nice, it runs like crap on my pc though, mplayer works good though
[05:21] <rob^> weard, that
[05:22] <rob^> oh, I've done the commit
[05:22] <mgalvin> have you tried totem with the xine backends
[05:22] <mgalvin> gstreamer is really sluggish
[05:22] <rob^> yeah, might do
[05:22] <rob^> I use to have that going on Breezy IIRC
[05:26] <rob^> hmm that works much better
[05:26] <rob^> stick totem-xine in for sure
[05:27] <mgalvin> :)
[05:28] <mgalvin> so possibly remove mplayer, this also may be a good idea since i know many people often have issues getting mplayer installed properly, especially on the ppc arch, totem just works
[05:29] <rob^> glad its friday
[05:29] <rob^> well saturday now
[05:29] <jsgotangco> heh yeah im ready to crash as well..but then its a weekend
[05:29] <mgalvin> ah TGIF
[05:29] <mgalvin> still 11:30 on firday here :)
[05:29] <mgalvin> am
[05:29] <jsgotangco> im in a separate PC across my table playing guild wars
[05:30] <jsgotangco> and wife is already asleep so i'll just pig out the whole night
[05:30] <rob^> yeah mine is too
[05:30] <mgalvin> rob^ i am gonna run xmlindent on the guide to just to clean it up a bit so its easier to read, any objections?
[05:31] <rob^> I gotta pass a fitness test soon so I cant pig out
[05:31] <rob^> nope
[05:31] <rob^> go ahead
[05:31] <mgalvin> k
[05:32] <jsgotangco> ahh i love the weekends its the only time my wife allows me to eat junk
[05:32] <rob^> maccas run?
[05:32] <rob^> hehe
[05:32] <rob^> that was a quick maccas run
[05:32] <jsgotangco> heheh
[05:32] <jsgotangco> i actually had a quarter pounder a few hours ago
[05:33] <jsgotangco> its been months since i last had one
[05:33] <rob^> time to hit the sack I think
[05:34] <rob^> b4 the bub wakes up
[05:35] <rob^> night all, have fun mgalvin 
[05:35] <jsgotangco> night
[05:36] <mgalvin> night rob^
[05:38] <jsgotangco> i gotta sleep too heh
[05:38] <jsgotangco> night
[05:38] <mgalvin> night jsgotangco
[05:42] <mgalvin> rob^ are you still there, quick question
[05:45] <mgalvin> oh well, it'll wait till tomorrow
[06:06] <jsgotangco> gyahaahhhh
[06:07] <robitaille> yes?
[06:07] <jsgotangco> i get to be on the laptop testing team heh...i just got an email right now
[06:07] <robitaille> I just got mine as well.  I also did the little dance in my kitchen :)
[06:08] <jsgotangco> haha congrats to you too
[06:08] <jsgotangco> damn its 12am
[06:08] <robitaille> 9am here.  About to start packing to go camping for the week.  
[06:09] <robitaille> no computer access for a full 7 days :)
[06:09] <jsgotangco> whoa
[06:09] <jsgotangco> robitaille: did you read #8
[06:09] <jsgotangco> 3 Ubuntu releases?
[06:10] <Burgundavia> you can always return it
[06:10] <robitaille> it used to be 2 in a draft version on the wiki.
[06:10] <jsgotangco> ahh
[06:10] <robitaille> It's only 18 months.
[06:10] <jsgotangco> ahh right
[06:10] <jsgotangco> that's not too much
[06:11] <robitaille> we do the debugging/testing anyway on our own :)
[06:11] <jsgotangco> i was reading wikipedia on miss universe winners...
[06:12] <robitaille> I see that jsgotangco is having a very busy evening while his wife is already sleeping
[06:13] <jsgotangco> hahaha
[06:13] <jsgotangco> (at least its wikipedia)
[06:14] <jsgotangco> and claire's email suddenly erased thoughts of sleeping
[06:14] <Burgundavia> now that is odd
[06:14] <Burgundavia> I got an email for Matthew Garret
[06:15] <jsgotangco> what about it?
[06:15] <Burgundavia> the laptop testing email
[06:17] <robitaille> yes it was from Claire, to Matthew.  I guess all the testers were BCC to it.
[06:18] <jsgotangco> hmmm is LaptopTestingSpec up to date?
[06:18] <Burgundavia> oh
[06:18] <Burgundavia> I didn't think I put my name down
[06:20] <Burgundavia> I didn't
[06:20] <Burgundavia> odd
[06:21] <jsgotangco> odd?
[06:21] <Burgundavia> I got an email from claire, regarding the laptop testing team when I didn't put my name down to be part of it
[06:22] <jsgotangco> well maybe they mjg59 has too many laptops in his pad and wants to dispose them
[06:23] <jsgotangco> surely he doesn't want to test them all by himself
[06:26] <robitaille> Burgundavia:  look at it in a positive way:  people really appreciate you bug-finding skills if they really want you on that team
[06:26] <jsgotangco> robitaille: scary thought...
[06:27] <Burgundavia> I guess so
[06:27] <jsgotangco> robitaille: next they'll be sending you servers to test...
[06:27] <Burgundavia> someone may have added me
[06:27] <jsgotangco> *ahem* blade servers
[06:28] <Burgundavia> those are the new and shiny ones, no?
[06:28] <Burgundavia> wouldn't mind them
[06:28] <robitaille> servers are often a bit noisy to put in my kitchen (the only place where I can fit a computer in this small apartment)
[06:29] <jsgotangco> yeah servers would rule as long as they won't get to be no bigger than an as400 machine
[06:29] <Burgundavia> I would have to sleep with a server, no thanks
[06:30] <Burgundavia> my cunning plan is to get my parents to colo my server, so to speak
[06:31] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: any universe app that might be a candidate for main needs an inclusion report?
[06:31] <Burgundavia> yes
[06:32] <Burgundavia> for good reason, as you saw in my list
[06:32] <Burgundavia> s/list/email to the list
[06:32] <jsgotangco> yes i'll make one then as mdz requested
[06:33] <Burgundavia> for edubuntu?
[06:34] <jsgotangco> well theres one for edubuntu and one for pda spec..or is it too late for an inclusion?
[06:34] <Burgundavia> no
[06:34] <Burgundavia> there is no seed freeze, afaik
[06:35] <Burgundavia> the edubuntu one, please put on the edubuntu page
[06:35] <jsgotangco> alright
[06:35] <mdke> Burgundavia, have you clarified with rob^ ?
[06:35] <Burgundavia> mdke, yes
[06:35] <mdke> good :)
[06:35] <jsgotangco> hey mdke
[06:35] <mdke> hiya
[06:36] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: p7zip is 7zip for nix?
[06:36] <Burgundavia> ya
[06:36] <jsgotangco> 7z is awesome
[06:37] <Burgundavia> at the very least, it needs some fixing
[06:37] <jsgotangco> hey mdke how's the tube
[06:37] <mdke> i haven't been in london a lot recently...
[06:37] <jsgotangco> understandable
[06:39] <robitaille> mdke:  got the laptop email?
[06:39] <mdke> yeah :)
[06:39] <mdke> dunno what hardware tho
[06:40] <jsgotangco> well pray its not a samsung or an acer heheh
[06:40] <jsgotangco> but the spec mostly covers dell, toshiba, hp and ibm
[06:43] <mdke> anything light would really be nice
[06:43] <mdke> but what the hell, its free!
[06:43] <robitaille> mdke:  you're the closest to them.  You will get the big paper-weight laptop to save shipping cost
[06:43] <jsgotangco> sure after 3 releases heh
[06:43] <jsgotangco> robitaille: hahah
[06:43] <mdke> noooooooooooo
[06:44] <jsgotangco> mdke: do uk people free to move in commonwealth states?
[06:45] <mdke> no idea
[06:45] <mdke> doubt it
[06:45] <jsgotangco> so much for having the same queen hehe :P
[06:45] <froud> no, but it is easier
[06:46] <mdke> froud has been to them all!
[06:46] <jsgotangco> is isle of man a state?
[06:47] <froud> if you have a BP marked as BC you will find it easy to move around
[06:47] <mdke> jsgotangco, part of the UK afaik, but not 100% sure
[06:47] <robitaille> jsgotangco: not really.  A friend of mine from UK was trying to move to Canada, and he had to go through the usual immigration red-tape. 
[06:47] <jsgotangco> huh? what kind of englishman are you anyway ;)
[06:48] <mdke> bah
[06:48] <froud> robitaille: you have to use the channels, but believe me it is easier
[06:48] <mdke> i have only half english blood
[06:48] <froud> if I tried to move countries with my SA passport it would be difficult
[06:48] <jsgotangco> mdke: no tea and lemon biscuits then?
[06:48] <mdke> mmm
[06:48] <mdke> those come into the half that I've got
[06:48] <robitaille> tell that to a poor student who still had to pay hundred of dollars in visa fees :)  But I agree, it was probably a little bit easier.
[06:49] <jsgotangco> i agree
[06:49] <jsgotangco> to a poor urban professional like me hundreds of dollars is worth a lot
[06:52] <jsgotangco> hmmm how i wish OOo2 base would be as clear to use like filemaker
[07:04] <jsgotangco> mmm?
[07:05] <venda> network splits
[07:05] <venda> bah!
[07:12] <jsgotangco> thinks?
[07:12] <Burgundavia> I like to rabble rouse
[07:12] <Burgundavia> haven't you figured that out by now?
[07:13] <Kinnison> burgey: you *are* crazy
[07:15] <robitaille> the best is probably to find a VERY large pictures.  Try to some complex gimp transformation on it.  When it start swaping (especially if your swap space is a file on your ext3 disk) like crazy, then pull the plug.
[07:16] <robitaille> but a hammer also works very well to simulate disk problems and bad blocks
[07:23] <Kinnison> erm s/simulate/stimulate/
[07:23] <jsgotangco> damn i should stop playing san andreas, im beginning to speak like an east side gangster
[07:24] <Burgundavia> no I don't. I hate XP. I hate windows. I hate MS, go away!
[07:25] <jsgotangco> how about your viagra emails heh
[07:25] <Burgundavia> ya, get those 2
[07:30] <jsgotangco> alright i really got to sleep now
[07:30] <jsgotangco> ciao
[07:53] <jjesse> from sean's earlier email i've started using the eclipse docbook plugin
[07:53] <jjesse> works great w/ the subversion plugin as well
[07:53] <venda> jjesse: have you found a way to stop it from changing the whitespace ?
[07:54] <jjesse> venda not yet still working on it, just found the subversion plugin so i'm going to working on it this weekend
[07:54] <venda> jjesse: you are talking aboyt vex, right?
[07:54] <jjesse> nod vex and subeclipse
[07:54] <venda> yes
[07:55] <venda> vex is nice for editing, but makes big changes in the whitespace
[07:55] <jjesse> thanks for letting me know about that... i will be careful
[07:55] <venda> open a file, save it and the diff it against svn you will see what I mean
[07:56] <venda> if we can find a way to stop that happening it will be bongo
[08:39] <thechitowncubs> Amarok page created last night
[08:41] <Burgundavia> noticed that
[08:41] <Burgundavia> cool
[09:01] <mdke> we need to make an effort on the documentation page to explain the guides. rather than "guide to x", maybe "guide to x, which does y"
[09:02] <Burgundavia> we should also spec all the docs ont eh wiki
[09:02] <Burgundavia> to prevent what just happened
[09:02] <mdke> yes
[09:03] <mdke> we agreed to do that two meetings back
[09:03] <Burgundavia> oh
[09:03] <mdke> although it'll be no use if you come along as say "this spec is wrong" :p
[09:03] <Burgundavia> I didn't
[09:03] <Burgundavia> there was no spec
[09:04] <mdke> i was being hypothetical
[09:04] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:04] <Burgundavia> the quick guide is also misspeced, but meh
[09:04] <mdke> lol
[09:04] <Burgundavia> I am going to work on the wiki, where I can actually change useful things
[09:04] <mdke> you have a real tendency to be very final in your suggestions
[09:05] <Burgundavia> I don't mean to
[09:05] <mdke> i know dude
[09:05] <mdke> just add IMO to every sentence
[09:05] <mdke> maybe an email signature :D
[09:05] <Burgundavia> ok, IMHO
[09:05] <Burgundavia> yes, IMHO
[09:05] <mdke> lol
[09:05] <mdke> :)
[09:06] <Burgundavia> the reason I sound that way is that I tend to spend about 6 months thinking about something
[09:06] <Burgundavia> then just move
[09:06] <mdke> i understand
[09:06] <Burgundavia> rather than dither about
[09:07] <mdke> but we have to work as a team
[09:07] <mdke> which means gathering opinions
[09:07] <Burgundavia> working as a team also means published what we plan to do
[09:07] <Burgundavia> I did
[09:07] <mdke> takes a bit longer, as Sean complains, but it makes for more love
[09:09] <Burgundavia> we need to be more agressive about promoting what we are working on
[09:09] <Burgundavia> then we can get more people, if their is a vision
[09:09] <mdke> agreed
[09:09] <mdke> the server should help
[09:09] <Burgundavia> we need spec pages on the wiki
[09:09] <Burgundavia> ala the style guide thingy
[09:10] <Burgundavia> so people can come in and start working, in a useful manner
[09:10] <mdke> agreed
[09:10] <Burgundavia> so, back to my thinking and doing
[09:10] <Burgundavia> I am going to fork the faqguide
[09:11] <mdke> i'm adding some explanations to the UserDocumentation page
[09:11] <mdke> oh yeah?
[09:11] <Burgundavia> create a common problems guide based on the spec that I worked on
[09:11] <mdke> ok
[09:11] <Burgundavia> going to keep it in baz
[09:11] <mdke> what are you gonna call it?
[09:11] <Burgundavia> Common Problems guide
[09:11] <mdke> sounds like the sort of thing mpt might be interested in
[09:11] <Burgundavia> absolutely
[09:11] <Burgundavia> that is the intention
[09:13] <mdke> have you got a spec already then?
[09:13] <Burgundavia> yes, the one that I created for the FAQGuide respec
[09:14] <Burgundavia> as it passed the father test
[09:14] <thechitowncubs> is the FAQGuide still under dispute?
[09:15] <Burgundavia> no
[09:15] <Burgundavia> I forked it
[09:15] <thechitowncubs> oh ok
[09:16] <Burgundavia> mdke, anything you want raised at the nun meeting?
[09:16] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsGuideSpec
[09:16] <mdke> except for the useless duplication of documentation on the wiki...
[09:16] <mdke> nothing else
[09:16] <Burgundavia> suggestions welcome
[09:17] <thechitowncubs> when is the nun meeting?
[09:17] <mdke> Burgundavia, will you be in bad cop mode at the meeting?
[09:17] <mdke> want me to come?
[09:17] <Burgundavia> I hope not to be
[09:17] <Burgundavia> see how it goes
[09:17] <mdke> go the diplomacy route... Mez understand our point of view
[09:18] <Burgundavia> so does Nalioth
[09:18] <mdke> if we get bad cop on them they'll just back into corners
[09:18] <Burgundavia> indeed
[09:18] <mdke> in the end, all we want to do is ensure that effort gets funnelled in the most efficient way
[09:18] <Burgundavia> I got to grab some lunch, feel free to comment on the commonprobs spec
[09:18] <mdke> ok
[09:19] <mdke> Burgundavia, i'm adding bold font to the program names in UserDocumentation, think its a good idea?
[09:19] <Burgundavia> just do it
[09:19] <Burgundavia> no idea right now, have to see it
[09:19] <mdke> ok yeah
[09:19] <mdke> me too
[09:20] <mgalvin> i started adding bold font to command name in the faqguide if you want to see an small example
[09:20] <mgalvin> look in the installing codecs section
[09:22] <thechitowncubs> i think bolding the links would look better
[09:24] <mdke> i've bolded the links in the software section
[09:24] <mdke> lemme know what you think
[09:24] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation
[09:27] <thechitowncubs> the links aren't bolded...
[09:29] <mdke> no
[09:29] <mdke> just the software names
[09:29] <mdke> sorry
[09:29] <mdke> s/links/names
[09:29] <thechitowncubs> i don't like the look of that
[09:29] <thechitowncubs> but thats my opinion...
[09:29] <mdke> can you explain why
[09:29] <mdke> i wanted your opinion :)
[09:30] <thechitowncubs> looks sloppy and erratic
[09:35] <mdke> ok
[09:35] <mdke> any ideas about how to make the names of the programs more readable from the text? italics?
[09:36] <thechitowncubs> Trying to think of a way as we speak
[09:37] <thechitowncubs> i think it would look better if each description had the name of the program in the same place
[09:38] <thechitowncubs> and then having the links in another place, not the first thing
[09:39] <thechitowncubs> For example:
[09:39] <thechitowncubs> I'm trying to think of the example :)
[09:39] <thechitowncubs> lol
[09:40] <thechitowncubs> i'll let you know when my idea matures a bit :)
[09:40] <mdke> i know what you mean, I think its a good idea
[09:40] <thechitowncubs> I don't think the link should be the first focus, i think the program should be and then the link somewhere else that is still highly noticeable
[09:43] <Seveas> mdke, ping
[09:44] <thechitowncubs> has anyone made a wiki team yet on launchpad?
[09:44] <mdke> Seveas, sup
[09:44] <mdke> thechitowncubs, no
[09:44] <mdke> thechitowncubs, interesting idea
[09:44] <thechitowncubs> are there plans for one :)
[09:44] <mdke> (the link thing, not the LP one)
[09:44] <mdke> thechitowncubs, no
[09:44] <Seveas> mdke, NuN meeting in 15 minutes, you wanted me to ping you :)
[09:45] <mdke> Seveas, ah thanks, I may not be able to make it I'm afraid, but Burgundavia will hopefully set out the docteam view on stuff :)
[09:45] <Seveas> ok
[10:15] <kbrooks> So far so good.
[10:31] <Burgundavia> any page that you think needs help, can be listed on WikiToDo
[10:32] <Burgundavia> if you want to fix up a page, that is also where to go
[10:32] <kbrooks> ok, Burgundavia 
[10:32] <Burgundavia> have any questions, just ask
[10:32] <highvoltage> I've written technical documentation for schools. Troubleshooting guides and getting started guides mostly.
[10:32] <Burgundavia> FileCompression and AudioCDCreation are fairly good examples
[10:32] <mdke> hi highvoltage 
[10:32] <Burgundavia> of what we are looking for
[10:32] <highvoltage> hi mdke 
[10:32] <mdke> thechitowncubs, i don't like the idea of structuring UserDocumentation by user. I think its better to structure it by subject
[10:33] <thechitowncubs> both has pros and cons
[10:33] <thechitowncubs> we'll see how things iron out
[10:33] <mdke> in terms of finding things, I think that makes it easier
[10:33] <mdke> but let's be honest: once that page becomes very long, people will use CTRL F to find stuff
[10:33] <Burgundavia> people tend to be tasked based
[10:33] <mdke> yes
[10:34] <Burgundavia> and there is a wierd mind-trip involved with "novice" and "expert" stuff
[10:34] <mdke> yes
[10:34] <Burgundavia> some people don't categorize themselves well
[10:34] <mdke> there is no dividing line
[10:34] <thechitowncubs> scrap that idea then...
[10:34] <Burgundavia> observe all the poor fools who do the expert install in Ubuntu and then mess it up
[10:34] <thechitowncubs> i just thought some users looking for docs might be burdened by the vocabulary, level of difficulty surrounding the tutorial, etc
[10:35] <Burgundavia> then simply the language
[10:35] <Burgundavia> I have an MCSE and I still love simple docs
[10:35] <mdke> yeah we need to simplify the whole document
[10:35] <Burgundavia> s/MCSE/training towards an MCSE/
[10:35] <highvoltage> no comment :)
[10:36] <mdke> what is that?
[10:36] <thechitowncubs> UserDocumentation has a bright future indeed, i'm excited to start working on it after the meeting
[10:36] <Burgundavia> what I am saying is that just becuase you are an "expert" doesn't mean you don't want plain english docs
[10:36] <Burgundavia> Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
[10:36] <mdke> eww
[10:37] <highvoltage> I always thought it was Minesweeper Consultant Solitaire Expert.
[10:37] <highvoltage> but now we're going OT :)
[10:37] <kbrooks> Burgundavia: why do you have a MCSE?
[10:37] <Burgundavia> kbrooks, because I do
[10:37] <Burgundavia> before I saw the light
[10:38] <kbrooks> Burgundavia: silly you
[10:38] <Burgundavia> I never want to touch another windows machine in my life
[10:39] <Burgundavia> mdke, thechitowncubs just created it
[10:39] <mdke> jeez
[10:39] <mdke> bloody hell
[10:39] <Burgundavia> it can be a subsection of the docteam
[10:39] <Burgundavia> lp allows that
[10:39] <mdke> this obsession with creating LP teams gets on my nerves SO much
[10:39] <Burgundavia> but there is no docteam lp team
[10:39] <thechitowncubs> oh :/
[10:40] <thechitowncubs> obsession?
[10:40] <mdke> plus, the wiki team is not "people who write docs on the wiki"
[10:40] <Burgundavia> it can be
[10:40] <mdke> its "people who work on technical problems on the wiki"
[10:40] <thechitowncubs> its a team of wiki contributers... thats what i always looked at it as
[10:40] <mdke> Burgundavia, no, because there is no reason for creating a team which includes the whole universe
[10:40] <mdke> EVERYONE has access to editing the wiki
[10:40] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:41] <Burgundavia> I think it is useful
[10:41] <mdke> the idea of the wiki team was to create a group if it was necessary to implement access rights
[10:41] <Burgundavia> well, the people in the wiki team are the people who are heavily editing the wiki
[10:41] <mdke> i think it will be used as a status symbol, like many of the other new launchpad teams, and has no purpose
[10:41] <thechitowncubs> a team is a group of people working together, so a wiki team sounds ideal
[10:41] <Burgundavia> and thus most likely to be trusted with those access rights
[10:41] <thechitowncubs> its good for notifying users of changes, stuff like that
[10:42] <Burgundavia> mdke, we are eventually going to have to turn off deletion for everybody
[10:42] <mdke> launchpad groups have no function except for status symbols
[10:42] <Burgundavia> the team merely identifies who is actively working ont eh wiki
[10:42] <mdke> Burgundavia, yes, but you can't activate that through launchpad
[10:42] <Burgundavia> but as lp gets further integrated into the wiki, it will matter
[10:42] <Burgundavia> the point of lp is to be "the place" for this stuff
[10:43] <mdke> it will never be sufficiently integrated with the wiki to define access rights on it
[10:43] <mdke> s/never/not for a long time
[10:43] <thechitowncubs> what is your obbsession with access rights?
[10:43] <mdke> thechitowncubs, let me explain.
[10:43] <thechitowncubs> sounds great
[10:44] <mdke> thechitowncubs, i see the creation of groups as useful when it serves a purpose. In this case, given that the whole point of the wiki is that EVERYONE can edit and improve it, the only reason for a group would be to define those people who have extended access rights, such as the ability to delete pages, move pages, modify wiki configuration etc.
[10:44] <mdke> this isn't implemented
[10:44] <mdke> thus, no need for a defined group
[10:44] <mdke> especially not a LP team
[10:45] <thechitowncubs> i think it just promotes team work and efficiency
[10:45] <mdke> what we have now is 2 wiki teams, one designed by us previously as people who take care of the structure of the wiki, another one created now, who edit the content of the wiki
[10:45] <mdke> 2 teams, same name
[10:45] <mdke> = bad
[10:45] <mdke> this is partly the fault of lack of definition of the first team tho, not yours
[10:46] <Burgundavia> ouch
[10:46] <mdke> this is all my opinion of course
[10:47] <mdke> i haven't convinced you tho, thechitowncubs ?
[10:48] <robitaille> I don't see the problem.  wiki team exist here.  Exist on the lauchpad as well as a way to track down its members, and maybe be used for other usage (mailing list...access right to more permanent wiki pages, etc.)
[10:48] <mdke> the teams have different objectives as I see it
[10:48] <robitaille> right now it is useless..but within 6 month LP will be the center of our Ubuntu Universe.
[10:48] <thechitowncubs> The wiki team on launchpad isn't a different team in my view
[10:49] <Burgundavia> I suspect that if the work needed to be done regarding wiki/lp integration, then it will happen
[10:49] <mdke> thechitowncubs, ah
[10:49] <mdke> thechitowncubs, well there is a difference in membership
[10:49] <mdke> and I think, objectives
[10:49] <robitaille> right....the wiki team on LP IS the wiki team.  You want to help...instead of having a wiki page with our members name, we have a group page on LP.
[10:49] <thechitowncubs> i just started the team because there wasn't one on launchpad, and i knew there was one created
[10:50] <mdke> ok but if it is going to involve taking care of the structure of the wiki, a prerequisite must be knowledge of the wiki software and organisation, rather than the writing of documentation
[10:51] <thechitowncubs> fair enough
[10:51] <mdke> hmm
[10:51] <mdke> we need to get common objectives for the two teams then
[10:52] <mdke> i mean the one team
[10:52] <thechitowncubs> how large is the "current" more important wiki team?
[10:52] <mdke> its not more important
[10:53] <mdke> its less important if anything, because the docs are more important than fixing broken links and deleting pages and so on
[10:53] <mdke> but so far we have kinda failed to define what the team is about
[10:54] <thechitowncubs> Its a team of active wiki contributers that new writers/contributers can look to for question guidance on what to do and also a way of working as a team to get things done quicker without redundancy.
[10:55] <mdke> ok
[10:55] <mdke> sounds good
[10:55] <thechitowncubs> :)
[10:55] <mdke> what are we gonna do with the old wiki team?
[10:56] <mdke> careful Burgundavia, you're listed too
[10:56] <Burgundavia> ahh
[10:56] <Burgundavia> yes I know
[10:57] <thechitowncubs> should robitaille be considered an administrator?
[10:57] <Burgundavia> why I don't run gentoo --> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74072
[10:58] <Burgundavia> thechitowncubs, if he says yes
[10:58] <mdke> thechitowncubs, what is the role of an administrator?
[10:58] <Burgundavia> approves new people into the group
[10:58] <mdke> ah its a moderated team?
[10:58] <mdke> okay
[10:59] <thechitowncubs> its just moderated to get to know new users and just to be more organized and intertwined
[10:59] <mdke> we should think about merging this team with WikiTeam on the wiki
[10:59] <mdke> thechitowncubs, yeah good idea
[10:59] <thechitowncubs> mdke: sounds good to me
[10:59] <mdke> change the contact address to the docteam mailing list?
[11:00] <thechitowncubs> sounds good, whats the address
[11:00] <Burgundavia> I will do it
[11:00] <mdke> thechitowncubs, you should subscribe tho
[11:00] <mdke> lots of wiki talk goes there
[11:00] <thechitowncubs> alright, will do
[11:00] <Burgundavia> mdke, I am not an ubuntu-doc admin, can you approve that addy to the list?
[11:00] <mdke> sorry I mean WikiTalk *nudges Burgundavia*
[11:01] <mdke> Burgundavia, me neither
[11:01] <Burgundavia> have to wait for jerome
[11:02] <robitaille> thechitowncubs: I can be administrator.  no preference one way or the other.
[11:02] <Burgundavia> more admin means less likelyhood of awol people holding the whole thing up
[11:02] <mdke> thechitowncubs, i've started the merge, will you edit the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiTeam to add what you see this team doing?
[11:02] <thechitowncubs> sounds good :)
[11:03] <robitaille> can bugs be assigned to a LP team?  If we ever get a wiki "bug" via Malone...
[11:04] <mdke> robitaille, yes i presume so
[11:04] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:04] <Burgundavia> and we can even own "products"
[11:04] <robitaille> so should we do a Docteam team?  and send bugs to it?
[11:04] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:04] <kbrooks> brb
[11:05] <mdke> who should the docteam team contain? svn account holders?
[11:05] <robitaille> and there is that calendar things that is slowly coming online in LP.  I suspect one day, teams will send up their future meeting ammouncement via this.
[11:05] <mdke> that's a bit restrictive
[11:05] <mdke> yeah the calendar thing looks cool
[11:06] <robitaille> and then wiki team will be a member of the doc team.  I think teams can be members of other teams.
[11:06] <Burgundavia> so we can all have hula addys from launchpad
[11:06] <mdke> problem is, if the docteam starts using baz, then the docteam group in launchpad should probably be people who have access to that repository
[11:06] <thechitowncubs> this launchpad is really coming together :)
[11:06] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:07] <mdke> long way to go yet
[11:07] <robitaille> but LP is much better than even a couple of months ago.  It's actually usable now
[11:07] <mdke> more or less...
[11:08] <Burgundavia> LP is going to be more usable
[11:08] <Burgundavia> and it is being worked on
[11:08] <mdke> who has done some sysadmin on an ubuntu system?
[11:08] <Burgundavia> god knows how much money sabdfl has spent on lp so far
[11:08] <Burgundavia> mdke, what are you trying to do?
[11:09] <highvoltage> i have, i think. depending on the definition of sysadmin.
[11:09] <mdke> i'm trying to figure out how come my cron job on the docteam server isn't working
[11:09] <robitaille> mdke: I sysadmin my computer :)
[11:09] <Burgundavia> does the script work?
[11:09] <robitaille> and I used to a sysadmin in a previous life
[11:09] <mdke> Burgundavia, yeah
[11:09] <robitaille> is doesn't run at all?  
[11:09] <Burgundavia> what isn't it doing?
[11:10] <mdke> it doesn't look like it runs at all
[11:10] <mdke> do i need the user in a particular group?
[11:10] <mdke> also, where are the cron logs?
[11:10] <robitaille> are you sure it is running at the time you think it should run?  i.e what is the time zone of the box?
[11:10] <mdke> they should have their own folder
[11:10] <mdke> robitaille, yeah checked
[11:12] <robitaille> have you tried a very simple script?  maybe something that pipe something to a file to check if it actually runs
[11:12] <mdke> the scripts work in the command line... thing is, i can't find a single log that says that something is happening at that time of day
[11:13] <mdke> i'll paste the crontab
[11:13] <Burgundavia> the other thing to try is to try the script in the cron job on your machine
[11:13] <mdke> i have a gentoo server
[11:13] <mdke> i'll try on my laptop, good idea
[11:13] <mdke> this is the crontab
[11:13] <mdke> root@none:/var/log # crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs
[11:13] <mdke> 0 2 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up
[11:13] <mdke> 0 4 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/gnome && make all && cd ../build && cp -R gnome/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
[11:14] <mdke> 0 6 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde && make kall && cd ../build && cp -R kde/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
[11:15] <mdke> it doesn't seem to even have done the first line
[11:16] <mdke> trying on my laptop
[11:17] <robitaille> why don't you but these commands in one script?  I'm always of multiple commands with && in one single crontab line.
[11:17] <robitaille> s/^afraid^
[11:17] <mdke> ah ok
[11:18] <mdke> but i wanted to make sure each line was done before the next one started
[11:18] <mdke> what would the script be?
[11:18] <robitaille> then if you remove the hour part, just keep the minute for now for testing purpose; then you can test it every couple of minute.
[11:18] <robitaille> You will have 3 script, one per line:
[11:18] <robitaille> #!/bin/sh
[11:18] <robitaille> cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up
[11:19] <mdke> ok
[11:19] <mdke> etc
[11:19] <mdke> thanks dude
[11:19] <mdke> trying
[11:19] <robitaille> personally I always found it cleaning to keep the crontab lines very simple.
[11:19] <robitaille> s/cleaning/cleaner/
[11:23] <mdke> robitaille, so is this cool?
[11:23] <mdke> ubuntu-docs@none:~$ crontab -l
[11:23] <mdke> 0 2 * * * ./svn_up
[11:23] <mdke> 0 4 * * * ./copy_gnome_to_webspace
[11:23] <mdke> 0 6 * * * ./copy_kde_to_webspace
[11:24] <robitaille> you need full paths to these scripts.  You have to assume very basic environment for any cron job
[11:24] <mdke> argh
[11:24] <mdke> sorry
[11:24] <mdke> so /home/ubuntu-docs/./svn_up?
[11:24] <mdke> sorry for being thick
[11:24] <Burgundavia> /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up
[11:24] <Burgundavia> assuming they are in the root of the users home dir
[11:24] <robitaille> don't worry...I have done these mistakes many times before; sometimes it works, but not always
[11:24] <Burgundavia> ./home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up
[11:24] <Burgundavia> I think
[11:25] <mdke> /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up seems to work from the command line
[11:25] <robitaille> yes, /home...should work
[11:28] <mdke> testing now
[11:28] <mdke> we'll see if it works
[11:29] <mdke> robitaille, afayk, is the minutes format in the crontab ok?
[11:30] <robitaille> looking at my machine
[11:30] <robitaille> 00 22 * * *  /mnt/music/podcast/bashpodder.shell
[11:31] <robitaille> yes, yours shuold be fine.  Are far in advance you try it?  Some machine need over a minute of no changes to the crontab to make it to work.
[11:31] <mdke> hmm
[11:31] <mdke> ok i've set it to test for now
[11:32] <mdke> 30 17 * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up
[11:32] <mdke> 33 17 * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/copy_gnome_to_webspace
[11:32] <mdke> 36 17 * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/copy_kde_to_webspace
[11:32] <mdke> not sure if I had a clear minute ;)
[11:34] <robitaille> so if you do "date", you are at 5pm on that machine?
[11:34] <mdke> 17.34
[11:34] <robitaille> great
[11:35] <mdke> have to give it a few minutes
[11:37] <robitaille> you can also you 
[11:37] <robitaille> use "at" to test scripts
[11:37] <robitaille> "at now"
[11:37] <kbrooks> at?
[11:37] <robitaille> then cut and pase your script  /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up  then do a control-d
[11:38] <robitaille> man at :)
[11:39] <thechitowncubs> lol
[11:40] <robitaille> I love at..  You can do things like "at now +1min" to run script in the future
[11:41] <robitaille> I would offer to actually login on that box to debug it....but I'll be gone for the next week.  Maybe when I return.
[11:44] <mdke> hmm
[11:45] <mdke> thanks robitaille 
[11:45] <mdke> it hasn't worked :(
[11:45] <mdke> script looks alright
[11:45] <mdke> cron is obviously just not starting the job
[11:46] <mdke> nor on my laptop
[11:47] <mdke> oh hang on
[11:47] <mdke> it has worked on my laptop
[11:47] <robitaille> have you tried without the hour for now:
[11:47] <robitaille> 50 *  * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up
[11:47] <mdke> trying now
[11:47] <robitaille> that would eliminate a time issue
[11:48] <mdke> ubuntu-docs@none:/home/matt$ crontab -l
[11:48] <mdke> 50 * * * * mkdir /home/ubuntu-docs/test
[11:49] <mdke> thechitowncubs, ok i removed the bold from the software section and tried something else - like it?
[11:50] <thechitowncubs> I like that a lot ore
[11:50] <thechitowncubs> more
[11:50] <thechitowncubs> a lot more user friendly :)
[11:51] <mdke> robitaille, in my /var/log/syslog on my laptop I can see the cronjob working
[11:51] <mdke> not on the server though
[11:51] <mdke> thechitowncubs, cool
[11:51] <mdke> robitaille, the mkdir /home/ubuntu-docs/test/ hasn't worked
[11:53] <robitaille> i'm trying a crontab on my hoary to see if I get something in my logs
[11:53] <robitaille> just to double check:  chmod u+x /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up  ?
[11:54] <Burgundavia> robitaille, are you not subscribed to the whole wiki anymore?
[11:54] <robitaille> I removed earlier myself since I'll be gone for the week.  I don't want 1000 emails waiting for me next weekend
[11:54] <Burgundavia> ah
[11:54] <thechitowncubs> smart
[11:54] <mdke> robitaille, i did the +x
[11:55] <mdke> you can always use RecentChanges rather than email subscriptions
[11:55] <mdke> its a lot better than on the previous wiki software
[11:55] <kbrooks> someone in #ubuntu?
[11:55] <robitaille> yes, on hoary crontab leaves something in /var/log/syslog
[11:55] <robitaille> Jul 22 14:54:01 localhost /USR/SBIN/CRON[14643] : (daniel) CMD (/home/daniel/test.sh)
[11:56] <Burgundavia> RecentChanges is actually usable
[11:56] <mdke> robitaille, yeah i see it on my laptop
[11:58] <mdke> robitaille, you think i need to add the user to some kind of group?
[12:00] <robitaille> mdke:  I don't think so.  Unless the setup of that box is more restrictive than a normal hoary install?
[12:00] <robitaille> I don't even know where to look for that.
[12:00] <mdke> i guess its a server install
[12:00] <mdke> he did a warty install then upped it to hoary
[12:02] <thechitowncubs> audiocdcreation updated
[12:02] <mdke> robitaille, just noticed something that rules that out
[12:02] <mdke> robitaille, the root crontab isn't running either
[12:02] <mdke> i think