[12:02] double checking === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:03] on my home box, even the longer crontab involving the && has worked fine [12:04] fun [12:04] more harddrive stress testing, this time provided by my landlord [12:04] lol === mpt wakes up [12:05] lol [12:06] robitaille, i have an idea, which will involve a certain amount of grovelling at your feet and apologising for wasting your time === mdke says in a small voice "the daemon wasn't started" [12:08] yes? === mdke coughs [12:08] the daemon wasn't started???? sigh :) [12:09] sorry! [12:09] seriously sorry [12:09] hey Burgundavia [12:09] no problem. to tell you the truth, I have never faced that problem. my cron daemon have always work on machines I tried crons on [12:09] robitaille, yeah, it gets started when you install it [12:09] still, should have thought of that [12:10] if nothing is working, think about the basics... [12:10] salut mpt [12:10] Burgundavia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsGuideSpec looks remarkably similar to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LocalHelp [12:10] mpt, ironically, I hadn't read localhelp recently [12:11] but yes [12:11] combine the two! [12:11] Burgundavia: I'd rather have a different license though :-) [12:11] Burgundavia, thechitowncubs, robitaille, mpt, what do you think of the table of contents on UserDocumentation? [12:11] mpt, what do you mean? [12:11] mdke, I like it [12:12] not too crowded? [12:12] nope [12:12] wouldn't want to make it any bigger [12:12] I think its nice [12:12] i mean, not too crowded with the other text on the left? [12:12] i like the box myself as well [12:13] brb [12:13] mdke, combining the two means that my forked doc becomes our default page [12:14] Burgundavia, well the team hasn't said that LocalHelp will be the default page [12:14] mdke, yes, but local help strongly hints that (and I happen to agree) [12:14] yes [12:14] but the team has not discussed it [12:14] yes [12:14] maybe for the next meeting? [12:14] ok [12:15] mpt? [12:15] Burgundavia: GPL instead of GFDL [12:15] oh [12:15] the docs are all GFDL and CC by sa 2.0 [12:15] Burgundavia: That way (1) it can contain code (and help will eventually need code for "Do this for me" etc), and (2) it'll always be usable by Debian [12:16] yes [12:16] need to discuss with the doc team [12:16] we can tri license [12:16] and (3) there doesn't need to be a user-visible link to a list of contributors that is irrelevant to people using the help [12:17] huh? [12:17] user-visible links to contributors = bad [12:17] mpt: where? [12:17] show me a page? [12:17] kbrooks, any docteam page [12:17] one example? [12:17] the userguide [12:17] the faqguide [12:17] the styleguide [12:17] the quickguide [12:17] etc [12:18] all of them [12:18] ok, the next agenda is up [12:18] Burgundavia, good [12:18] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda?action=show [12:18] my view is that LocalHelp should have its own link in the menu (Start Here) whereas the other docs should be accessible via another link to a document index [12:19] that is another link [12:19] better to have a good default start page [12:19] erm i didn't explain well [12:19] Burgundavia: See http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Why_Wikitravel_isn't_GFDL for an example that may be more familiar to you [12:20] mpt, the GFDL and CC by sa 2.0 issues are known to me [12:20] I have been involved in several discussions at WP about the GFDL [12:20] ooooh, the "by" in by-sa has the same problem, doesn't it [12:20] yes [12:20] neither is DFSG-free [12:21] is there a CC license that is? [12:21] no idea [12:22] the issues with CC and the GFDL seem to be mostly stupid wording choices [12:23] yay the cronjob is workin [12:23] g [12:23] http://creativecommons.org/license/meet-the-licenses :-( [12:23] boo, blam is borked on breezy [12:23] mpt, what is wrong with that page? [12:23] Burgundavia, why don't you work on localhelp and abandon the fork? wouldn't it essentially be the same work? [12:24] Burgundavia: Every license has "Attribution" in its name [12:24] mdke, local help is a spec [12:24] Burgundavia, i mean, work on implementing it [12:24] sure, I can merge them [12:24] or was it agreed that localhelp was breezy+1 [12:24] ? [12:24] i seem to remember sabdfl saying it was out of reach [12:24] hadn't heard anything [12:24] it is not out of reach [12:24] at the meeting [12:25] which one? [12:25] the only one we've had which involved sabdfl [12:25] we reviewed localhelp [12:25] I thought that was the HelpfulHelp spec [12:26] most of which *is* out of reach for Breezy [12:26] ooh yeah [12:26] sorry! [12:26] LocalHelp is a Simple Matter of Writing [12:26] ok then maybe you can merge burg's idea and LocalHelp [12:26] sounds like a cool idea to me [12:26] but you should make sure you use material in the faqguide so that you don't have to write, just select the relevant bits [12:27] and then edit them as appropriate [12:27] I'd love to have 48 hours in each day and spend 12 of them writing help [12:27] I am about half done the spec of mine [12:27] [23:23:56] < Burgundavia> mpt, what is wrong with that page? [12:27] argh [12:27] sorry bad paste [12:27] and to be honest, most of the faq guide is useless [12:27] mpt, Burgundavia can help you out! together you'll have 48 hours [12:27] and most is commandline junk [12:27] but I literally have sabdfl looking my shoulder right now, and he's probably wondering why I'm not doing Launchpad work [12:27] Burgundavia, the popularity of ubuntuguide proves you wrong IMO, it is not just used for the common stuff [12:27] looking over my shoulder, rather [12:28] mpt, convince your employer to pay me and then I can do it [12:28] lol [12:28] mdke, not really [12:28] what people want is easy solutions [12:28] the ubuntu guide is one of them [12:28] and the ubuntuguide appeals to a very specific set fo users, that doesn't include most of our parents [12:28] Burgundavia, i'm not saying its perfect, i'm just saying people want answers to many questions, not just the most common ones, although those are the most important [12:28] sure [12:28] and they don't know which questions are common and which aren't === mpt bangs his drum [12:29] i agree that common is a good idea [12:29] mpt, i agree with you [12:29] brb [12:29] ubuntuguide wouldn't work for my mother [12:29] no [12:29] agreed 100% [12:29] but that doesn't mean its "useless" as corey said [12:29] that is what LocalHelp and CommonProblems is for [12:30] i think they are both valuable [12:30] the market that Ubuntu is trying to move into and linux is traditionally weak in, is our parents [12:30] and that is why we should really target our energies there [12:30] is it not clear that I agree with you? [12:31] okl [12:31] o [12:31] ok, even [12:31] good [12:31] i was just challenging your use of the word "useless" [12:32] ok [12:32] there are also better ways of getting the info across to the audience that ubuntuguide targets === mdke nods [12:33] geez, looking at WP stats [12:33] 25k editors. Only 1300 with over 100 edits [12:33] and probably about 100 with over 10k edits (like yours truly) [12:33] Burgundavia: The Long Tail, right? [12:34] yes === mpt wonders if he's one of those with >100 [12:34] must be pretty close to that [12:34] rofl [12:34] i've done 1 [12:34] ph33r [12:34] some days I used to do 250 a day === Burgundavia is truly truly crazy [12:35] That's more than one every three minutes [12:35] yes [12:35] mostly cleanup stuff [12:36] i think both those specs are really cool [12:36] i wanna make that clear :) [12:36] maybe put them out for discussion on the mailing list? that way people can read and think about them before the meeting [12:37] LocalHelp and CommonProblems? === mpt steals sabdfl's chair === Burgundavia closes the 100th "FF segfaults" bug [12:39] bloody dups [12:39] erh, we still don't have a "did you mean..." dup-finder in Malone [12:39] you need one [12:40] I've had three dups on one of the bugs I reported, and that Malone only has about 1500 bug reports in it so far [12:40] and it needs to be ajax cool, so that it doesn't require another click [12:41] mmm [12:41] ok i'm off to bed [12:41] night [12:41] tchau mdke [12:44] ah crud, GPL isn't good for help either [12:44] not really [12:45] "For instance, anyone publishing the book on paper would have to either include machine-readable "source code" of the book along with each printed copy, or provide a written offer to send the "source code" later." [12:45] much easier to just put a C [12:45] why does our copyright system make it hard to share stuff? [12:46] http://creativecommons.org/license/publicdomain is looking more and more attractive [12:46] I put most of my works in the PD [12:46] too much effort to license [12:46] Is PD DFSG-free? :-) === nalioth [~Apple@cpe-66-25-34-88.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:48] rofl [12:48] Burgundavia: there was an argument at that VLUG meeting a couple of months ago against putting stuff in the PD vs other license... But I forgot was it was... [12:48] the issue with PD is that then evil corps can do what they want [12:48] I wonder if the slides of that talk are up somewhere [12:48] that was the linux licensing talk that I missed [12:48] yes [12:49] so how do i become an ordained ubuntu documentarian? [12:49] nalioth, you exist and write docs [12:49] and therefor you are [12:50] nalioth, you comfortable with xml and docbook? [12:50] so who's the pope? [12:50] some freaky german guy [12:50] mpt, how do you want to merge those 2 specs? [12:50] Burgundavia: umm, errr, i was gonna stick with the wiki [12:50] WikiToDo lists stuff that needs to be worked on [12:50] pope = supreme overlord of docteam [12:51] if there is nothing there that strikes your fancy, then almost everything needs work [12:51] the docteam has no pope [12:51] we are an anarchy [12:51] AudioCDCreation and FileCompression are good examples of pages [12:51] i was gonna approach the wiki with a team of elves [12:52] Burgundavia: How about the "Document plan" from yours + the hierarchy from mine? :-) [12:52] document plan? [12:52] ok, I will merge and we can work on LocalHelp [12:53] With baz archives we'll be able to merge from each other whenever we like [12:53] i'm a total droooling n00b when it comes to official documentation [12:53] nalioth, easiest to pick a page you want to work on and then start hacking [12:53] and then ask us when are done [12:53] but i have an understanding of what grandma wants to read when she starts her new ubuntu box that grandchild gave her [12:54] yes [12:54] so basically, there is no "official docteam"? (i'm lost atm) [12:55] yes [12:55] there is, we just don't have a chief poobah [12:55] mpt, the doc team already works like a baz archive [12:55] so how does one join the "official team"? (and learn all these big words) [12:56] edit some docs [12:56] the wiki is very low barrier [12:56] for our svn repo, make some good patches and then ask for access [12:56] i have been editing some docs [12:56] welcome aboard! [12:56] quite unofficially, lol [12:57] I think you are supposed to be an ubuntu member, but whatever [12:57] i am, but whatever (thought wikis were open to anyone) [12:57] they are [12:57] the doc team mostly just steers the wiki [12:58] so you want me to send the interested elvi in here then? [12:58] absolutely [12:59] thechitowncubs, might be nice to split the kde on gnome config stuff into another page [12:59] ok [01:00] http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-community/2005-March/000357.html === maori [~Liz@static-203-87-81-158.nsw.chariot.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:10] http://people.debian.org/~evan/ccsummary.html [01:10] mpt, should Printing be Printing and Scanning [01:10] mpt, indeed, I have read those [01:11] Burgundavia: ya that might work [01:11] Burgundavia: Possibly, or change "Disks and storage devices" to "Disks and devices" [01:12] http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-community/2005-March/000369.html <-- we could use this === maori is now known as Liz [01:13] well, we would be tri licensing [01:13] just add GPL to the two we already have [01:13] sigh...thats better [01:13] What would that gain us? [01:13] Liz: Are you Maori? [01:13] yes i am [01:14] debian can ship us as GPL [01:14] Burgundavia: I meant, what would the GFDL gain us [01:14] we already have it, we might as well keep it [01:15] I had another thought with the help [01:15] change /a/your [01:15] Burgundavia: We couldn't use any existing GFDL+CC-BY-SA stuff [01:16] because all its contributors haven't given permission for their work to be published under the GPL [01:16] you want to change to just cc-by [01:16] yes [01:16] I am in favour of simply doing nothing for now [01:17] And the trouble with not having the GPL is that a lot of help should actually be in dialogs etc themselves, not in documents [01:17] So while we write help, we should also report bugs on moving sentences from that help to the software [01:18] And starting a new document is a good time to make license decisions :-) [01:18] yes [01:18] what did you think of the change from A to MY or YOUR for a prefix in the help [01:19] I don't like that [01:19] ok [01:19] Using "my" makes sense for form controls, where a person is carrying out stuff about their stuff [01:20] e.g. "[/] Encrypt my home directory" [01:20] but where you're explaining stuff *to* a person, second person is more appropriate [01:20] ok [01:21] "The lock of CoreyBurger2 timed out 0 minute(s) ago" -- still editing? [01:22] yes [01:22] just a sec [01:22] done [01:23] hmmm [01:23] hack away [01:24] Do you think "Using a digital camera" would be better under "Music, photos, and video"? [01:24] might be [01:24] yes [01:25] users don't consider it a device [01:25] and music player should be under music === Burgundavia wants live collaborative editing on the wiki [01:26] Does Ubuntu have any faxing software? [01:26] efax [01:27] but it is ugly as shit [01:27] gfax, also ugly [01:33] Neither of those appear in the menus, yay === rob^ pokes head in [01:35] we have no fax program, basically [01:36] we have fax software just not pretty fax software [01:36] no easy to use fax software, sadly [01:36] ya [01:37] saw a link on the forums. some guy completely redid the audacity interface [01:37] only a mockup, but it looked quite nice [01:39] mgalvin, just looking at Multimedia Codecs [01:40] I guess they are commands, so probably should have the tag [01:40] my thoughts exactly, and i just used that section as a test run to see if it looks ok [01:41] I was planning to remove all the "sudo apt-get" stuff though [01:41] right ok, forgot about that, well good thing i didn't bother to do more [01:41] see Smeg (Applications-> System Utilities) for an example [01:42] I mentioned it under the version revision, but yeah for the rest of the commands, sure [01:43] speaking of changing everything to synaptic/kynaptic, what do you think about it? [01:43] What's Audacity? [01:44] mpt: an audio editor [01:44] oh, I installed it at some point [01:44] They are unlikely to include tools like hot-babe, and, thus, may be considered safer versions to use in situations where somebody may get offended. [01:44] Well, OK, perhaps we can't be too sure with Ubuntu. [01:44] yep [01:44] gtk1 like gfax [01:44] there's a tool like hot-babe? [01:44] like -> called [01:45] Burgundavia, were you refering to me? [01:45] "The Debian developers raised the obvious, predictable objection to the inclusion of this utility: the associated images were covered by a non-free license." [01:45] rob^, no [01:45] http://lwn.net/Articles/113644/ [01:45] ok np [01:49] haha [01:49] This is like the Gnome Certification being discussed recently on desktop-devel [01:51] mpt, http://dindinx.net/hotbabe/download.php [01:52] dam, now I need to find something to chew resources [01:52] haha [01:52] yay, I just ran "yes" in a terminal! [01:53] man thats funny as.. [01:56] rob^: How does one get it to run? [01:56] I've installed it, but as per bloody usual, it's not in the menus [01:56] you need to run it from a terminal [01:56] hot-babe [01:57] I have a one line shell in my top gnome menu bar [01:57] I'll tell you what, shes easy [01:57] Also too large for this screen [01:58] yeah? mine is only < 10cm high [01:58] Yes, I was expecting ~2cm high [01:58] but then I'm using a 20inch screen [02:03] mpt, you realize the wiki is already gfdl and cc by sa 2.0 ? [02:03] no, I didn't [02:04] hmm, legalese doesn't mention it [02:04] it should [02:06] the wiki doc is a spec, not the help itself [02:06] yes [02:06] but the various other docs on the wiki [02:17] Burgundavia: http://www.sourcecontrol.net/?action=pushaccount [02:17] cool [02:17] currently baz is acting up, because I am running the crack of the day [02:18] will try later today [02:18] ok, past 9pm time to leave, and going rafting tomorrow, so I may not be online [02:18] wi-fi at the hotel is apparently broken anyway [02:19] so I'll be back on Monday, perhaps earlier === hybrid_goth [~foo@dpc6745217221.direcpc.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:19] ok [02:19] you in brazil? [02:19] yah [02:20] lucky bastard [02:20] Launchpad sprintathon [02:20] ttfn === mgalvin [~mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@info12-74.info.com.ph] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:52] rob^ regarding your question before, it was about using synaptic right? i think it's proabably a good idea to use it since it is a gui and is easier for noobs and windows switcher to use to ease their transition even more [02:52] yeah [02:52] what do you think of the example though? [02:53] sorry, which was it again [02:53] umm [02:53] smeg [02:53] salut [02:53] theres an explination in "Installing Applications" also [02:53] is smeg to be included? [02:53] well, its in there [02:54] jsgotangco, yes, it is going to be in main, we should mention how to use it [02:54] i mean inclusion in main? [02:54] WHOA [02:54] yup, iirc === jsgotangco used to remember to offer writing a small manual for smeg but got the trashing [02:57] smeg is going to be the default menu editing app [02:59] im going to take a bath brb === hybrid_goth [~foo@dpc6745217221.direcpc.com] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [03:03] hey has anyone here ever installed gentoox MCE on an xbox? [03:03] rob^, it sounds good, one suggestion... i think we should also mention to click the search button and enter the app name so that user know of it and don't have to manually scan the list themselves to find the package they wich to install [03:04] s/wich/wish/ [03:04] yeah I was thinking that, wasn't sure how to fit it in though [03:07] . [03:07] add it between what is now 2 and 3 (so searching would now be 3) and say something like... Alternitively you can click the search button, enter the application name in the text field and synaptic will show you a much shorter list from which to select your application for installation. This can be much easier that having to look through the very long list of applications on your own. (something like that) [03:07] yeah [03:07] hey, is X sane in breezy again? [03:07] I noticed the took that out of their topic [03:08] not sure, i think it is [03:08] no [03:08] ah dam [03:08] -devel still says X is broken [03:08] ok guess not :-/ [03:08] mileage varies [03:08] so it does [03:08] I have only had one issue [03:09] I had to manually configure it last time I used breezy, but I take it that its really broken atm === rob^ sobs.. I want to install gentoox MCE, but I dont want to rm all my media nor to I want to sit here all day backing it up to dvd [03:10] what a shitty way to do things, bloody gentoo users.. [03:11] bloody xbox [03:17] rob^ did you want to add that point on synaptic search, or shall i? [03:18] go right ahead, I'm about to go out for lunch [03:18] ok, i'll add it in then [03:18] breezy wont install on my new G5 imac [05:50] nalioth, why do you get mac's if you don't use mac osx? [05:51] thechitowncubs: i use OSX on my newer macs (with lots and lots of fink) [05:51] ic ic [05:52] fink and darwinports === ed1t [~dipen@ool-4355c7cd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:54] yo yo yo [05:55] ed1t: you makin a rap record? [05:57] heh [06:00] jizzle dizzle...my songs the shizzle [06:00] hows that for the beginning? [06:00] thought you was starting with yo yo yo [06:01] yea that too [06:02] nalioth, u want couple of songs on my album? :P [06:02] ed1t: sure thing [06:03] nalioth, u have any ideas on ur opening? === woodwizzle [~corey@user-0c6t0t8.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === venda [~sean@ndn-165-137-215.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:51] african greetings [07:53] salut [07:53]