[01:23] <tseng> infinity: evolution-sharp ftbfs is some fault of mine? it pbuilds locally
[01:27] <infinity> tseng : Looks like unhappy/confused build-deps, or a dirty chroot.  I'll play with it in a sec.
[01:27] <tseng> infinity: my hero.
[01:30] <infinity> Very broken build-deps.
[01:31] <tseng> huh.
[01:31] <infinity> From a clean chroot (ie: debootstrap --variant=buildd), try "apt-get -o Debug::pkgProblemResolver="1" -s build-dep evolution-sharp" and watch the pain...
[01:31] <tseng> id be happy to fix a problem, but pbuilder had no complaints
[01:32] <infinity> A dirty pbuilder chroot.  That's clever... I thought the whole point of it was to avoid that. :)
[01:32] <tseng> hm its not dirty
[01:32] <tseng> it has like.. apt and build-essential
[01:32] <infinity> What arch are you using?
[01:32] <tseng> x86
[01:33] <infinity> Oh, of course that's where it's failing too, so that doesn't help.
[01:33] <infinity> (I guess it's an arch:i386 package?)
[01:33] <tseng> should be arch:any
[01:33] <tseng> i can log pbuilder happily resolving the build-dep
[01:36] <infinity> Oh, it's arch:all, not any.  That's why it only builds on i386.  Phew.  Thought I was going insane.
[01:36] <tseng> oh yes, im a tool and still get those mixed up
[01:36] <tseng> because they are so distinctive :)
[01:37] <infinity> Yeah, that's one you just need to hammer into your skull.  I'm not sure there's any sane way to remember which means which.
[01:37] <infinity> I guess "this can build anywhere" makes more sense than "this can build allwhere"... :)
[01:37] <tseng> http://tseng.ath.cx/pbuilder-log
[01:39] <infinity> Oh, I believe you, it still doesn't explain why both sbuild and apt think something's wrong, unless you have a local package cache or something.
[01:40] <tseng> nope thats feeding off just archive.u.c
[01:40] <infinity> Join #flood
[01:40] <tseng> ill happily fix my bug, just dunno where it is :)
[01:46] <infinity> Flood protection in #flood.  How cute.
[01:46] <infinity> Clearly a new feature meant to irritate me.
[01:46] <tseng> yeah that was a real winner
[01:46] <infinity> tseng : http://cerberus.0c3.net/~adconrad/feh.txt
[01:47] <tseng> why the hell cant i paste out of urxvt, i wonder
[01:48] <tseng> getting a 404 on that
[01:48] <tseng> oh
[01:48] <tseng> a*d*conrag
[01:48] <tseng> d
[01:49] <tseng> Package cli-common has broken dep on mono-utils
[01:49] <tseng> feh indeed
[01:50] <infinity> Note that "broken" from apt's point of view just means "doesn't work with everything else I'm trying to do"... So, finding the one culprit requires a bit of digging at times.
[01:50] <infinity> Of course, I assume you know the mono dependency chain better than I.
[01:50] <tseng> unfortunately.
[01:53] <tseng> im guessing either mono-jit or mono-utils
[01:53] <mdz> infinity: is sbuild still using its own logic rather than apt-get build-dep?
[01:53] <mae> hur hur.
[01:53] <tseng> as libg*-cil is one source package
[01:53] <infinity> mdz : Yes, some days I think that's a pain, other days I think it's a feature.  I'm undecided which direction to go with that.
[01:53] <mae> is it likely that beagle/howl/tomboy will be included in breezy?
[01:54] <ajmitch> I don't see any obvious breakage in the build-deps there
[01:54] <tseng> mae: howl? no
[01:54] <tseng> mae: beagle, yes
[01:54] <infinity> mdz : The feature aspect is where it blindly ignores alternate dependencies, thus forcing consistent builds.
[01:54] <mdz> infinity: I think apt-get build-dep is the way to go.  at one point, elmo switched one of the Debian buildds to use it as a test; not sure what eventually happened with that
[01:54] <infinity> mdz : Something you really don't want on your home machine, but comes in handy for buildds.
[01:54] <mae> tseng, no rendezvous?
[01:54] <mdz> infinity: surely it doesn't completely ignore them, and will fall back if the first one is not available?
[01:55] <tseng> mae: the current implementation of howl is restricted by apple patents
[01:55] <tseng> mae: its being rewritten
[01:55] <mae> tseng, i see :)
[01:55] <infinity> mdz : It used to have a conniption fit if the first was unavailable.  If that's since been fixed, then sbuild's dependency handling is basically identical to apt-get, and we should just switch.
[01:56] <infinity> mdz : I haven't looked at that part of the code for a while, TBH.
[01:56] <mdz> infinity: perhaps we should give that a try for the breezy full test rebuild
[01:57] <infinity> mdz : I'm game for that, but it means pulling one buildd out of the rotation (like that's an issue anyway.. We can rebuild the whole archive on the fast buildds in a couple of days..)
[01:57] <infinity> mdz : elmo and I have other tests (kernel stress-testing and such) scheduled around pulling a buildd out of rotation too, so perhaps we should tweak sbuild there as well and see how badly it goes.
[01:57] <mdz> sounds good
[01:58] <mae> python or ruby?
[01:58] <tseng> mae: python has always been a main target. ruby is in universe
[01:58] <tseng> mae: could you please consult packages.ubuntu.com for this sort of thing?
[01:59] <ajmitch> infinity: could the mono problem be mono-jit depending on a virtual package provided by mono-classlib-1.0?
[01:59] <mae> tseng, that wasn't meant to be a question about breezy, I was just wondering what your thought were on the two languages? :)
[02:00] <tseng> mae: canonical development is all python-centric.
[02:00] <tseng> but please, this channel is for development work. we like to offload general questions to other channels
[02:00] <infinity> ajmitch : I'd have to do more digging to really know for sure what the issue is.  I assumed tsend already had a handle on things, so I stopped wasting cycles on it. :)
[02:00] <tseng> im looking at it, i dont see anything obvious so far
[02:01] <ajmitch> if it is, then it should be easily fixable
[02:01] <ajmitch> in mono
[02:01] <tseng> besides that I ruled out libg*-cil
[02:01] <tseng> as its all one source package
[02:01] <tseng> and sbuild liked it just fine when it build beagle
[02:01] <ajmitch> time for lunch :)
[02:02] <tseng> hm.
[02:02] <infinity> tseng : Uhm, mono-classlib-1.0-1.1.8.2 just plain doesn't exist.  That's not THAT hard to find.
[02:03] <tseng> ii  mono-classlib-1.0 1.1.8.2-1ubuntu1
[02:04] <tseng> hm?
[02:04] <tseng> oh
[02:04] <infinity> Is it in universe, perchance?
[02:04] <infinity> Cause evolution-sharp isn't. :)
[02:04] <tseng> how the hell did he manage that
[02:05] <tseng> oh
[02:05] <infinity> Time to set your pbuilder up for the main/universe split.
[02:05] <tseng> yes it was NEW the other day
[02:06] <tseng> good one..
[02:07] <tseng> mdz: can we fix that? NEW bins from mono need seeded
[02:07] <mdz> tseng: why?
[02:08] <mdz> is this mono-gmcs?
[02:08] <mdz> oh, mono-classlib*
[02:08] <tseng> Package: mono-classlib-1.0
[02:08] <tseng> mono-classlib-1.0-dbg
[02:08] <tseng> mono-classlib-2.0
[02:08] <mdz> nothing depends or build-depends on it?
[02:08] <tseng> mono-classlib-2.0-dbg
[02:08] <tseng> classlib-1.0 is a move from mono-assemblies-arch
[02:08] <tseng> er, -assemblies-base
[02:08] <tseng> the 2.0 stuff has no build-deps
[02:09] <tseng> and -dbg is just debug, naturally
[02:09] <mdz> these are the binaries built from mono which are currently in breezy/universe:
[02:09] <infinity> mdz : Oh, that could be an argument for not using apt-get build-dep.  If I resolve the build deps myself, then do "apt-get foo bar baz" I get informative messages about baz being uninstallable or foo not existing.
[02:09] <mdz> mono-classlib-1.0 | 1.1.8.2-1ubuntu1 | breezy/universe | all
[02:09] <mdz> mono-classlib-1.0-dbg | 1.1.8.2-1ubuntu1 | breezy/universe | all
[02:09] <mdz> mono-classlib-2.0 | 1.1.8.2-1ubuntu1 | breezy/universe | all
[02:09] <mdz> mono-classlib-2.0-dbg | 1.1.8.2-1ubuntu1 | breezy/universe | all
[02:09] <mdz>  mono-gmcs | 1.1.8.2-1ubuntu1 | breezy/universe | all
[02:09] <tseng> yes, exactly
[02:09] <infinity> mdz : If I use apt-get build-dep, I just get "E: build-dep can't be satisfied, you suck."
[02:09] <infinity> mdz : And most people can't read pkgProblemResolver output to save their lives (as evidenced here)
[02:10] <mdz> tseng: so mono-gmcs should be in main, too?  no new/unwanted deps?
[02:10] <mdz> infinity: still, it seems a bit silly to have two implementations of this
[02:11] <mdz> infinity: it wouldn't be hard to add an sbuild-bug-compatible mode to apt-get build-dep
[02:11] <infinity> mdz : Agreed.  Could we get more informative error reporting, then? :)
[02:11] <mdz> infinity: that's Hard
[02:11] <mdz> except in the case where we just emulate sbuild
[02:12] <mdz> infinity: I don't have access to my key at the moment, please add the mono-classlib-* stuff above to the supported seed
[02:13] <tseng> mdz: gmcs shouldnt pull anything else to main, no.
[02:13] <infinity> I've not mucked with seeds before.  Where do they live?
[02:13] <tseng> mdz: and none of that stuff has things build-dep on it for breezy
[02:14] <tseng> mdz: *2.0* is non-critical, for the same reason.
[02:15] <mdz> infinity: has been documented on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement forever
[02:16] <infinity> mdz : Ahh, will go ive myself a crash course.  I've not ever had cause to edit seeds before.
[02:16] <infinity> s/ive/give/
[02:16] <tseng> hm, then I think we can promote just mono-classlib-1.0* without anything else complaining.
[02:16] <tseng> 2.0 stuff wont be used until breezy+1 at least
[02:23] <tseng> dude, its merging
[02:23] <tseng> :)
[02:23] <infinity> Yes, I know.  Doesn't mean I have to appreciate it.
[02:34] <infinity> Alright, which packages specifically?  mono-classlib-1.0{,-dbg}?
[02:38] <tseng> infinity: yes
[02:38] <tseng> infinity: do you see mono-classlib-1.0-1.1.8.2?
[02:39] <tseng> hm oh
[02:39] <tseng> it just drops to mono-classlib-1.0
[02:39] <tseng> or, apt does. ill not speak for sbuild
[02:40] <daniels> schweeb: sudo apt-get install xauth
[02:41] <schweeb> daniels: is it in now? I searched apt for it earlier
[02:41] <daniels> schweeb: should be
[02:41] <daniels> ah, it's waiting for the binaries to be NEWed
[02:41] <daniels> it'll probably happen in about 10h when the UK's awake
[02:41] <schweeb> k
[02:42] <schweeb> I downgraded to -34 or -36 and managed to get NX working
[02:48] <infinity> tseng, mdz : done, btw.
[02:52] <spacey> will (Free)NX be available in breezy?
[02:52] <tseng> infinity: thanks muchly
[02:54] <daniels> spacey: probably not
[02:54] <daniels> spacey: its build system is bizzare and horrible, it's not at all obvious what changes they've made, and, most importantly, their modifications are GPL rather than MIT/X22
[02:54] <daniels> er, mit/x11
[02:54] <toresbe> ugh, I read FreeVAX
[02:54] <toresbe> I need sleep.
[02:55] <spacey> daniels, GPL is ok right?
[02:55] <spacey> seems ok for ubuntu
[02:55] <HrdwrBoB> spacey: yes but it can't go back upstream
[02:56] <spacey> HrdwrBoB, ah, you mean from freenx -> NX
[02:56] <spacey> ?
[02:56] <spacey> or am i missing a step
[02:57] <schweeb> they mean upstream to X, I believe
[02:57] <spacey> ah
[02:57] <spacey> didn't know it NX affected the X codebase
[02:57] <HrdwrBoB> well it's based off X
[02:58] <HrdwrBoB> NX, while when it's working is good, is still incredibly arcane
[02:58] <spacey> :)
[02:58] <HrdwrBoB> I have it working here, and it's not really ready for the wide world of installation and use by J random user
[02:59] <spacey> but its pretty nice for terminal server project
[02:59] <schweeb> HrdwrBoB: I have it working on solaris *shudder*
[02:59] <HrdwrBoB> schweeb: ouch
[02:59] <spacey> anyway i will have to implement it on a hoary install
[02:59] <HrdwrBoB> spacey: it's not very hard
[02:59] <schweeb> hrdwrbob: (desktop system at work)
[02:59] <spacey> HrdwrBoB, good, saves me some time :)
[03:00] <HrdwrBoB> schweeb: ah, we have two solaris machines here which are on a list for being removed and replaced with linux :)
[03:00] <schweeb> good deal.
[03:00] <schweeb> if I had the time to try to get debian or ubuntu on my blade 100 at work, I would
[03:00] <spacey> pretty fun job
[03:01] <spacey> we want to use a ubuntu hoary terminal server with freenx
[03:01] <spacey> should be a nice result
[03:02] <HrdwrBoB> based on my (limited) experience with it, it should work nicely
[03:03] <spacey> time for bed, goodnight
[03:14] <mae> hmm. is breezy going to have some sort of clipboard manager?
[03:16] <daniels> spacey: nx changes all the X libraries
[03:17] <daniels> spacey: it has its own libX11, branched from some ancient X version
[03:17] <daniels> spacey: and they've made a heap of really weird changes, not all of which make any sense
[03:17] <daniels> and since then we've also changed a lot about libX11
[03:17] <daniels> the resulting diff would be a nightmare
[03:17] <daniels> and I refuse on principle to support two completely different X codebases in main
[03:18] <mae> hmm.. never heard of nx :)
[03:18] <sladen> daniels: IIRC, a huge amount of the diff is doing things like zero'ing unused struct fields to aid transmission
[03:19] <daniels> sladen: and also a whole bunch of other weird stuff.  the diff is big and ahiry.
[03:20] <sladen> maybe I need to revisit it, it's been almost two years to the week since Fabionne(?) presented it at UKUUG
[03:20] <daniels> it's also all-GPL, and there's no way I'm going to ship a partially-GPL libX11.
[03:20] <sladen> ahhh.
[03:20] <daniels> since, y'know, people seem to enjoy running X apps with non-GPL-compatible licences.
[03:28] <eazel7> hi ppl
[03:29] <bddebian> Hello eazel7 
[03:29] <eazel7> hi bddebian
[03:29] <eazel7> is breezy usable right now?
[03:30] <bddebian> Works for me(tm)
[03:30] <mdz> so long as you don't need, say, X
[03:30] <Aegir> Heh
[03:30] <eazel7> X is broken?
[03:30] <mdz>  /topic
[03:31] <Amaranth> well, xbase-clients is installable now, but it lost about 40 binaries
[03:31] <poningru> anyone discussed the day light savings thing yet?
[03:31] <Amaranth> which might come in handy :D
[03:31] <eazel7> damn...
[03:31] <bddebian> Hmm, maybe it's be quite a while since I upgrade then.. :-)
[03:31] <Amaranth> i dunno how anyone working on breezy goals has managed without X
[03:33] <ajmitch> Amaranth: selective upgrading helps
[03:33] <Aegir> Amaranth, I read on Planet GNOME that their is a fix for the broken X issue.
[03:33] <infinity> Lots and lots of chroots.
[03:33] <Aegir> But I still dont have the balls to upgrade to Breezy
[03:33] <Amaranth> heh
[03:33] <Amaranth> i've always just made X work
[03:33] <Aegir> Breezy bucked me off last time, it was probably easilly fixable, but eh, I like stability
[03:33] <Amaranth> why chroot or hold back packages when you can hack it into working mode? :)
[03:33] <eazel7> hope it works here 'cause I need it
[03:34] <Aegir> eazel7, I doubt it will.
[03:34] <Amaranth> It's guaranteed to not work if you're not already on it.
[03:34] <Aegir> Make sure you have lynx and irssi installed though, you may need them
[03:34] <eazel7> anyway, I'll try to get back to hoary's X if it doesn't work
[03:34] <eazel7> but I need the latest dbus
[03:34] <infinity> Going back is probably rather... Difficult.
[03:35] <eazel7> yes, Marti McFly noticed me
[03:35] <eazel7> ;)
[03:41] <tseng> infinity: so did evo-sharp go to dep-wait now?
[03:48] <infinity> tseng : I was just going to retry it later.  I'm up all day anyway.
[03:48] <shackan> Amaranth, those 40 binaries include useless stuff like xcalc and xeyes ?
[03:48] <Amaranth> shackan: probably
[03:48] <Amaranth> shackan: and mkfontdir
[03:48] <daniels> and xedit oh my god won't somebody think of the children
[03:49] <daniels> the major ones are waiting on binary NEWing
[03:49] <Amaranth> or was that xutils?
[03:49] <daniels> Amaranth: mkfontdir came from xutils, iirc
[03:49] <Amaranth> daniels: cool
[03:49] <shackan> Amaranth, I hope we will get rid of them eventually :D
[03:49] <daniels> apparently people still want to use xterm also
[03:50] <crimsun> I haven't found a terminal emulator with better UTF-8 support than xterm
[03:50] <Amaranth> err
[03:50] <Amaranth> you mean uxterm?
[03:51] <tseng> urxvt > *
[03:51] <daniels> crimsun: g-t's utf8 support seems to be fine
[03:51] <Amaranth> gnome-terminal works fine for me
[03:51] <crimsun> daniels: I gave up with double-width Japanese characters some time ago and haven't tried again.
[03:52] <crimsun> Amaranth: no, I mean xterm, though uxterm the shell script is fine.
[03:53] <shackan> crimsun, just asking, what's the *.pdpc TLD your connection comes from ?
[03:53] <Amaranth> shackan: it's a cloak
[03:53] <crimsun> shackan: it's just a cloak signifying donation to PDPC. There's more info at www.freenode.net
[03:53] <Amaranth> like mine is amaranth.user
[03:53] <shackan> oh, ok sorry
[04:03] <Burgundavia> have we reverted to the default upstream spatial?
[04:04] <HrdwrBoB> I hope so
[04:05] <Burgundavia> the latest nautilus changelog seems to indicate that
[04:05] <infinity> \sh : 5 hours is not "sleep".  What's wrong with you?  Go back to bed.
[04:05] <\sh> infinity: only 4
[04:05] <shackan> you're definitely hurting yourself
[04:06] <\sh> but it's ok...coffee is on its way
[04:07] <\sh> my internal clock said: get up get up get busy ;)
[04:07] <shackan> uhm, it's 4 am, I ought to go to sleep as well...
[04:08] <\sh> infinity: u received my mail?
[04:08] <infinity> \sh : Yeah, and I assumed I'd have about 8 hours to worry about acting on it.
[04:08] <infinity> \sh : So, go back to bed.
[04:08] <\sh> I will go to the shower after I had some coffee and go to the office :) 
[04:09] <infinity> Deal.  frozenapps will be tidied up in a few minutes.
[04:10] <\sh> hahaha..don't worry..take your time :) 
[04:11] <\sh> but I see, riddell was also busy last night 
[04:16] <Riddell> morning \sh 
[04:16] <\sh> hey riddell..u should go to bed as well :)
[04:16] <Riddell> yes, I should
[04:17] <\sh> just updated the kde stuff from your buildd run...lets see what kdevelop is saying
[04:18] <\sh> infinity: what was wrong with the buildds yesterday during business hours ,-)
[04:23] <infinity> \sh : You may have to elaborate.
[04:23] <tseng> mako: three brilliant posts in a row. new record?
[04:23] <infinity> \sh : I can think of a number of things that have been wrong, owing to a few whacky transitions, and some mesa badness.
[04:24] <infinity> \sh : Also, frozenapps updated, the unfrozen ones are on their way to the buildds.
[04:24] <\sh> infinity: suddenly it was complaining about: please apt-get update ,-)
[04:25] <infinity> \sh : Yeah, there are some buggy packages in the archive I need to smack around with a big stick.  Just ignore build logs like those, they'll get retried when I find the right number of round tuits.
[04:26] <\sh> good, so it wasn't me hitting the daemons to bad ,-)
[04:27] <daniels> infinity: yay food
[04:27] <bob2> oh, lunch time
[04:29] <HrdwrBoB> ooh oporto
[04:29] <HrdwrBoB> I think I will have some
[04:30] <daniels> hm
[04:30] <eazel7> breezy is expected for september?
[04:30] <daniels> it's almost tempting to pass through oporto on my way through today
[04:31] <daniels> since I'll be within a block or two of QV (thus, Oporto)
[04:31] <bob2> eazel7: 5.10 = october 2005
[04:31] <daniels> but I have homemade steak and mushroom pie in the fridge, so
[04:31] <eazel7> aah
[04:31] <bob2> do it, do it
[04:31] <eazel7> I didn't know that!
[04:31] <bob2> ah
[04:32] <tseng> is that a british thing?
[04:33] <tseng> pies with meat
[04:33] <bob2> they stole it from us
[04:33] <bob2> in 1788 or so
[04:33] <tseng> i found the ones in sydney quite unappetizing
[04:33] <daniels> hah
[04:33] <daniels> tseng: yeah, because you don't have jesters in sydney
[04:33] <bob2> it's hard to find a good pie
[04:33] <daniels> tseng: come down to melbourne and I'll show you a proper pie
[04:33] <bddebian> Uhm
[04:33] <tseng> the only similar thing in the states is chicken pot pie
[04:33] <tseng> which can be excelent
[04:34] <eazel7> I wouldn't take that suggestion
[04:34] <eazel7> sounds me strange
[04:34] <daniels> food can be either excellent or bad, news at 11
[04:34] <tseng> i would simply postulate that strange aussie meat pies are more likely to be bad than not
[04:34] <daniels> the ones you can get in milkbars and stuff are terrible
[04:35] <bob2> perhaps you accidentally bought a "praerie oyster" pie
[04:35] <daniels> they're literally made from random offcuts
[04:35] <daniels> what you need to do is get a steak pie
[04:35] <daniels> which actually has real chunks of beef in it
[04:35] <daniels> and preferably also with mushroom
[04:35] <bob2> and onion
[04:35] <bob2> and red wine
[04:35] <daniels> yeah
[04:36] <daniels> this one's just steak + mushroom + carrots + thyme + puff pastry
[04:36] <ajmitch> sounds interesting
[04:36] <tseng> potentially edible
[04:36] <HrdwrBoB> wtf? you don't have pies with meat?
[04:37] <daniels> HrdwrBoB: only chicken pot pies
[04:37] <HrdwrBoB> daniels: esp one that is upside down in peas
[04:37] <daniels> but, I fear we've wandered far into the domain of off-topicness
[04:37] <daniels> HrdwrBoB: UGH
[04:37] <tseng> sorry, its nearly 11pm here
[04:38] <\sh> ah yes..A nice 500gramm steak from a corn-fed beef....medium for me pls...and a nice mushroom sauce with some (what a culture) french fries + a heavy dark red wine from france or za...yes...welcome to the real world, neo
[04:38] <tritium> daniels, every chicken pot pie I've ever ordered had no pot in it...
[04:42] <bddebian> hahaha
[04:48] <tseng> good night australia
[04:48] <tseng> (and crazy european types)
[04:48] <\sh> I heard that ,-)
[04:51] <\sh> infinity: if you have time...please get rezound into the buildd run :) thx
[05:02] <bob2> wtf
[05:03] <bob2> someone posted to ubuntu-devel, via the forums, asking for help with some other distribution
[05:03] <tritium> we get the occasional debian question in #ubuntu
[05:04] <sladen> bob2: (a) all Linux is good Linux, (b) they may be so impressed with the service as to choose Ubuntu next time
[05:40] <`anthony> bob2: crap. it used to work. oh well, will fix later.
[06:06] <fabbione> morning
[06:06] <bddebian> Morning fabbione 
[06:36] <infinity> God, I want to pass out in the worst way..
[06:41] <\sh> now I know how I can remember bddebians first name Barry...Barry "TheFlash" Allen ,-)
[06:41] <bddebian> Heh
[06:42] <bddebian> Just please, anything but Brian :-)
[06:42] <\sh> I think I'd uploaded a sponsored by message with brian this morning..i'm not sure...
[06:42] <bddebian> No worries
[06:43] <\sh> no lucky ,-)
[06:43] <\sh> infinity: thx btw for rezound...just fixed the last bit of crap in it..now it's building nicely
[06:47] <infinity> \sh : NP.
[07:25] <doko> good morning
[07:35] <\sh> re
[07:41] <pitti> Good morning
[07:44] <\sh> hey pitti...so early? ;)
[07:50] <pitti> \sh: why, that's my usual time :-)
[07:50] <pitti> Hey JaneW 
[07:51] <\sh> pitti: And mom Infinity tells me I have to go to bed at 2amUTC 
[07:51] <\sh> lol
[07:52] <\sh> good morning jane :)
[07:53] <JaneW> morning pitti
[07:53] <JaneW> hi \sh
[07:54] <jsgotangco> hi JaneW 
[07:55] <JaneW> hi jsgotangco 
[07:59] <\sh> that was it for breakfast...3 bread rolles with chocolate pieces inside and another coffee...I'm happy...now I can work 
[08:10] <\sh> elmo: please sync vflib3 from debian pls (see Ubuntu #12267)
[08:52] <fabbione> mdz: ping?
[09:08] <JaneW> fabbione, he doesn;t seem to be on-line...
[09:08] <fabbione> JaneW: yup.. no biggie...
[09:08] <Burgundavia> fabbione, is midnight here
[09:12] <pitti> elmo: please sync krb5 (override ok)
[09:12] <fabbione> Burgundavia: yup.. i know.. but sometimes he is awake longer
[09:12] <Burgundavia> pitti, how would I go about requesting a uvf breakage? 
[09:13] <pitti> Burgundavia: ask Kamion and/or mdz; if it's universe, ogra's ack is probably sufficient
[09:13] <Burgundavia> pitti, tis main, Inkscape and Screem
[09:31] <pitti> elmo: please sync cacti
[09:41] <pitti> elmo: please sync bugzilla (new upstream microrelease with two security fixes, universe)
[10:12] <{Seb}> now the feature freeze has occured, will the kernel be updated again?
[10:18] <fabbione> ops
[10:20] <Treenaks> ride the channelmodes
[10:20] <fabbione> i realized 2 secs too late i added the wrong ban :)
[10:21] <Treenaks> "oops"
[10:21] <Treenaks> oh well
[10:21] <\sh> fabbione: whats up with seb?
[10:21] <fabbione> constantly off-topic
[10:21] <fabbione> harassing devels
[10:21] <\sh> well yes
[10:21] <fabbione> he has been warned tons of times
[10:21] <Burgundavia> in other news, Hosting Geek got banned from another channel I follow
[10:21] <fabbione> in several polite ways
[10:22] <Treenaks> \sh: read Planet Suse for his opinions on Ubuntu :)
[10:22] <fabbione> gotta go
[10:22] <fabbione> bbl
[10:22] <thom> fabbione: dude, that's a very global ban...
[10:22] <\sh> Treenaks: planet.suse.?
[10:22] <\sh> com?net?org?
[10:22] <Treenaks> \sh: planetsuse.org
[10:22] <fabbione> thom: nah.. it's a C class
[10:22] <pitti> elmo: Hey seb128 
[10:22] <Treenaks> the original seb :)
[10:22] <fabbione> thom: welcome to refine it if you like :)
[10:23] <fabbione> i am not jalous of my bans
[10:23] <fabbione> i realy gotta go
[10:23] <fabbione> later
[10:23] <pitti> elmo: I collected the bunch of syncs requests: squirrelmail, cacti, krb5 (override ok), bugzilla (new upstream microrelease with two security fixes, universe); thanks 
[10:25] <\sh> Treenaks: lol...this guy is 16 ,-) no wonder
[10:25] <\sh> Treenaks: and he'
[10:25] <\sh> 's sitting without some pants on in front of a camera...*lol*
[10:26] <Treenaks> \sh: 8-|
[10:26] <seb128> pitti: hi :)
[10:26] <\sh> oh sorry..short pants..but anyway
[10:27] <Treenaks> \sh: *shudder*
[10:28] <\sh> well...lets see if in #kde-devel some kwave guys are
[10:36] <trulux> \sh: who?
[10:37] <trulux> \sh: that's scaring
[10:37] <\sh> trulux: i have some asm bugs in kwave on amd64...and the supplied patch doesn't work
[10:48] <\sh> http://www.voresoel.dk/ <- the beer for oss hackers *lol*
[10:55] <marcin> hi developers
[10:55] <marcin> I have pretty simple question
[10:56] <marcin> I would like to create package with single .el file (for emacs)
[10:56] <marcin> and my question is - do I need to put this single .el file into tar.gz
[10:58] <marcin> because when trying dh_make with -f ../somefile.el then I got error on dpkg-buildpackage (empty somefile.orig.tar.gz)
[10:59] <Treenaks> yes
[11:00] <JaneW> any idea what if anything has happened to the BreezyGoal ServerInstallation?
[11:02] <marcin> Treenaks, hmm then howto create package with files from cvs are there any docs/samples how to do this?
[11:04] <Treenaks> marcin: there's cvs-buildpackage
[11:04] <Treenaks> marcin: maybe it can help you?
[11:09] <marcin> Treenaks, hmm maybe
[11:10] <marcin> Treenaks, but first I need to understand how this guy: http://usefulinc.com/edd/notes/CVSEmacsOnDebian builds snapshot packages with regular dpkg-buildpackage
[11:11] <Treenaks> marcin: you can do that too
[11:11] <Treenaks> marcin: there is a lot of packaging HOWTOs etc. on debian.org
[11:13] <marcin> Treenaks, yes I know - reading maint-guide now but propably the best learning path is by reading some code from existing packages
[11:13] <Treenaks> marcin: apt-get source a lot :)
[11:14] <marcin> Treenaks, sure... in fact I didn't know that packaging for debian/ubuntu is so complicated :/
[11:15] <marcin> Treenaks, and especially _overcomplicated_ for emacs packages...
[11:15] <Treenaks> it's not really complicated.. all you need is a directory with source and a debian directory with ruled, changelog and control files (and maybe some more if you need them)
[11:15] <Treenaks> marcin: emacs is overcomplicated anyway :)
[11:15] <Treenaks> ruled=rules
[11:16] <marcin> Treenaks, control,changelog etc are pretty simple 
[11:17] <marcin> Treenaks, the only thing that is pretty scarry for me is this 'rules' thing
[11:17] <Treenaks> marcin: it's just a makefile
[11:18] <marcin> Treenaks, 'just'... oh how much I hate autotools ;)
[11:18] <Treenaks> marcin: that's why it's not an autotools makefile ;)
[11:18] <Treenaks> marcin: (no rules.am/rules.in/rules crap ;))
[11:19] <marcin> Treenaks, right it look simmilar to garnome scripts
[11:19] <marcin> s/look/looks
[11:19] <Treenaks> marcin: the make infopages might be helpful
[11:21] <marcin> Treenaks, well syntax is pretty simple but I don't like it anyway, it is hard to understand
[11:22] <Treenaks> marcin: it's makefile syntax.. it's not very hard.. it's "target: depends1 depends2 [etc] ", and those depends should be filenames and/or other target names
[11:23] <marcin> Treenaks, yes as I said - syntax is simple
[11:23] <marcin> Treenaks, but things are complicated when you have a lot of targets etc.
[11:24] <marcin> Treenaks, anyway I'll try to deal with it
[11:25] <marcin> Treenaks, there are perl/autotools/m4 lovers and xml/xslt/ant/python lovers too ;)
[11:27] <\sh> hmmm...any asm guru online? :)
[11:28] <Treenaks> \sh: mov ax, 0x1234; int 0x21
[11:28] <\sh> Treenaks: ok..please fix http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/k/kwave/0.7.3-2ubuntu3/kwave_0.7.3-2ubuntu3_20050725-0819-amd64-failed.gz
[11:28] <\sh> ;-)
[11:28] <\sh> it should be easy
[11:28] <\sh> not for me, he :)
[11:29] <\sh> Treenaks: but what u wrote is a DOS interrupt...
[11:29] <Treenaks> \sh: yeah, last time I asm'ed was in DOS
[11:29] <seb128> daniels: hey. Have you read what I said yesterday about xrdb ?
[11:30] <\sh> I tried to avoid asm..but not on 6502/6510
[11:32] <daniels> seb128: i think it just needs a newer libxmu-dev
[11:33] <seb128> k, just pointing it FTBFS
[11:33] <daniels> yeah, ta
[11:33] <sivang> seb128: Hello
[11:33] <seb128> I got a complain from a GNOME guy, he was getting an empty warning dialog
[11:33] <seb128> he fixed it by building xrdb and installing it
[11:34] <seb128> daniels: should an upgrade  from -33 to current xorg go fine? I've not updated since it's b0rked 
[11:34] <seb128> hi sivang
[11:35] <sivang> seb128: an news for lp integration?
[11:36] <daniels> seb128: you could do wonders for my productivity by fixing rhythmbox:
[11:36] <daniels> daniels@brainfreeze:~/canonical/xorg/app/xrdb/xrdb-7.0% rhythmbox
[11:36] <daniels> rhythmbox: error while loading shared libraries: libtotem-plparser.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
[11:36] <daniels> zsh: exit 127   rhythmbox
[11:36] <daniels> seb128: yeah, provided you reinstall xkeyboard-config with --force-confmiss once you're done
[11:36] <daniels> seb128: and bah, dude, I already fixed that empty warning dialog on gdm
[11:38] <seb128> daniels: apt-get install libtotem-plparser0 ?
[11:39] <seb128> how did you do that?
[11:40] <daniels> seb128: quote your arguments to zenity
[11:40] <daniels> i've just fixed it *again*, uploading now :P
[11:40] <seb128> yeah
[11:40] <seb128> the "how did you do that" was for rhythmbox, but thanks, this one is useful too :)
[11:40] <seb128> rb depends on totem-gst | totem-xine
[11:41] <seb128> and those should Depends on libtotem-plparser0
[11:41] <seb128> daniels: dpkg -l rhythmbox totem\* libtotem\* ?
[11:42] <seb128> sivang: current baz doesn't build here and is required to get working patches, there is some new functions
[11:43] <sivang> seb128: ah ok, I think I saw that build error, are you referring to make[2] : *** No rule to make target `/config.status', needed by `Makefile'.  Stop.
[11:43] <daniels> dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of totem-gstreamer:
[11:43] <daniels>  totem-gstreamer depends on xlibs (>= 4.2.1-9); however:
[11:43] <daniels>   Package xlibs is not configured yet.
[11:43] <sivang> ?
[11:43] <daniels> SEB
[11:44] <daniels> seb128: please just drop that xlibs Depends *entirely*
[11:45] <seb128> daniels: k, will do
[11:45] <seb128> sivang: correct
[11:46] <sivang> seb128: k
[11:47] <daniels> seb128: thanks
[11:48] <seb128> np
[11:52] <ogra> does anyone know a source for pxe/etherboot images that can boot pcmcia cards ?
[11:55] <daniels> oh seeeeebbbbbbbb
[11:56] <daniels> seb128: rhythmbox segfaults in g_main_context_iterate
[11:57] <seb128> grumpf
[11:57] <seb128> please open a bug with the full bt 
[11:57] <daniels> moving ~/.gnome2/rhythmbox out of the way fixes it
[11:57] <daniels> the full backtrace is useless, the stack is smashed to buggery
[11:58] <daniels> unless it really does make calls 2000-odd deep and malloc really does invoke g_main_context_iterate :P
[12:00] <seb128> nop :p
[12:00] <daniels> segfault in g_main_context_iterate -> iz gtk boog :P
[12:01] <ogra> Kamion, at least it will be overridden with the next sync...
[12:01] <Kamion> I know
[12:02] <ogra> so its just ugly but not evil :)
[12:02] <Kamion> \sh: please use the -v option to dpkg-buildpackage/debuild to include full changelog information since the last Ubuntu upload in your .changes file
[12:02] <Kamion> when merging
[12:03] <infinity> \sh : Care to hazard a guess as to why cln is FTBFS on ia64?
[12:04] <Kamion> (probably goes for most people but I particularly noticed it today from \sh because he uploaded lots of merges over the weekend :))
[12:05] <mdke> [OT]  question, but has anyone tried to send their laptop testing agreement by fax? I tried but there was no fax machine on the other end...
[12:05] <siretart> Kamion: this is evil after all? I asked twice if this was ok
[12:06] <daniels> siretart: if you just need a version from debian, ask elmo to sync it
[12:06] <siretart> Kamion: I wanted to reduce load from elmo. But will poke elmo in future if that's the correct procedure. ok
[12:07] <siretart> daniels: he must have a biiig backlog, I didn't mean to do any harm
[12:07] <Kamion> siretart: as ogra says it's not evil, but it makes life harder for people trying to see what our diff against Debian is
[12:07] <Kamion> so it's somewhat better to just sync
[12:07] <daniels> siretart: no harm done
[12:08] <siretart> Kamion: ah, I see. ok. will do in future. That must have only been one or two uploads, I think..
[12:08] <Lathiat> mdke: hrm no havent tried yet
[12:08] <Kamion> yeah, didn't see a lot of them
[12:09] <Lathiat> mdke: email claire and ask?
[12:09] <mdke> Lathiat, i got an answerphone at the other end over the weekend
[12:09] <mdke> Lathiat, will do
[12:09] <Lathiat> mdke: i nearly deleted that email
[12:09] <Lathiat> mdke: it just said "Congratulations" with a person i'd never heard of 
[12:09] <Lathiat> mdke: something made me stop and check it.. who knows what.
[12:10] <siretart> mdke: the number on the agreement pdf was a phone line, in the email the number given is indeed a fax
[12:10] <Lathiat> perhaps someone should suggest to claire to send a confirmation email
[12:10] <mdke> siretart, ah great, thanks!
[12:10] <Lathiat> with a better subject 
[12:10] <mdke> siretart, i'll retry that then.
[12:10] <Lathiat> mdke: ah yeh, there was a fax in her signature
[12:10] <Kamion> mdke: she's not typically in the office over the weekend ;-)
[12:10] <mdke> Kamion, well i thought she might leave the fax machine there tho
[12:11] <mdke> Kamion, np, siretart has cleared it up
[12:11] <Kamion> ah, well, true, I'd expect so
[12:32] <sivang> Kamion: do you know if the laptop testing (or could get the info) team decision are over by now? (I apologize in advance if you have nothing to do with it)
[12:33] <Kamion> sivang: I've nothing to do with it and have no idea. :-)
[12:34] <sivang> Kamion: kthxanyway :)
[12:34] <daniels> infinity: could you please kick xrdb when the new libxmu is in the archive?
[12:36] <infinity> daniels : Sure.  I'm guessing we've hunted down most of the obvious missing deps by now, but maybe it'd be good to go back over every lib you've modularised at some point and make sure they're all san
[12:37] <daniels> infinity: i did that for a few of them before I went back to beating the monolith up
[12:37] <ogra> infinity, hey
[12:38] <ogra> infinity, will your php5 packages already contain gd and imagemagick bindings ?
[12:38] <infinity> ogra : gd, yes, imagemagick, no.  imagemagick isn't shipped in the upstrfeam tarball.  It's trivial for me to package it out of PECL though, if we need it.
[12:39] <ogra> i'm still pondering if i package mediawiki with 4 or 5 .... imagemagick is a dependency...
[12:40] <infinity> ogra : Packaging PHP extensions takes a matter of minutes, so don't let that stall your decision.
[12:40] <ogra> oki
[12:40] <ogra> thanks :)
[12:41] <sivang> ogra: are you preparing PHP5 pakcages? :-)
[12:42] <ogra> nope
[12:42] <ogra> sivang, infinity does....
[12:42] <sivang> infinity: right, considering they are mere .so right?
[12:43] <infinity> sivang : Well, simple build system, well-established debian/ dir I can poach from my other packages, that sort of thing. :)
[12:43] <sivang> infinity: nice, so are there already php5 pakcages?
[12:44] <infinity> sivang : Will be uploaded tonight, right after I catch up on a few other breezy goals I promised mdz.
[12:44] <infinity> I think I'll just sleep right through Wednesday to make up for it.
[12:44] <ajmitch> infinity: it's planned for main?
[12:44] <daniels> infinity: gasp!  missing a day?
[12:44] <daniels> infinity: slacker.
[12:44] <sivang> infinity: cool
[12:45] <infinity> ajmitch : If I talk fast enough.
[12:45] <HiddenWolf> infinity, daniels, sivang, LOL
[12:58] <HiddenWolf> I guess it didn't go well for ogra
[01:11] <infinity> \sh : ghemical and gtklookat are FTBFS on all arches, looks like they need some gcc-4.0 love.
[01:28] <siretart> Kamion: could you have a look at http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12536 ? I think only you can fix this (but I may be wrong)
[01:33] <Kamion> siretart: in general please ask elmo about such things first; I only do it when he's away
[01:34] <Treenaks> is anyone in The Netherlands this week (before WtH)?
[01:34] <siretart> Kamion: ah, I didn't know. Will do in future. sorry for the noise
[01:34] <Kamion> I've reassigned to him
[01:34] <siretart> ok
[01:34] <mako> Treenaks: i'm there now
[01:34] <mako> Treenaks: in eindhoven
[01:34] <Treenaks> mako: cool
[01:35] <Treenaks> mako: though I'm in Amsterdam :)
[01:35] <siretart> hi mako 
[01:35] <mako> Treenaks: well, i'd like to see amsterdam
[01:36] <Treenaks> mako: When are you coming? :)
[01:37] <mako> Treenaks: coming where?
[01:37] <Treenaks> mako: to Amsterdam :)
[01:38] <mako> to amsterdam? no idea yet
[01:38] <Treenaks> mako: tell me when you know :)
[01:43] <mako> Treenaks: i went to utrecht yesterday
[01:43] <mako> tonight there is a free software eindhoven meeting
[01:44] <HiddenWolf> mako, utrecht, of all places? :)
[01:44] <HiddenWolf> managed to get lost in the train station? ;)
[01:51] <mako> HiddenWolf: there was a debian meeting in utrecht.. i quite enjoyed the city actually
[01:52] <pitti> l
[01:52] <pitti> sorry, EWINDOW
[01:52] <HiddenWolf> mako: the city is nice, the station is horrific. :)
[01:54] <mako> HiddenWolf: yes, this is true.. but i met locals in the station :)
[01:54] <HiddenWolf> mako, where else are you going?
[02:01] <ogra> yay, my mediawiki package works ! :)
[02:02] <sivang> ogra: cool
[02:03] <ogra> there is one drawback .... you still have to copy the config to the wiki dir manually... but i'll leave it this way so debian can use the package too :)
[02:04] <sivang> ogra: does it depend on php5 or 4 ?
[02:05] <ogra> sivang, the current package is php4 ... depending if i can switch moodle to php5 too it will be 5 ... i just dont want two php versions in edubuntu.... so it will depend on moodle...
[02:05] <sivang> ogra: sure, that figures
[02:10] <mako> HiddenWolf: well, i don't know.. i'm going to what the hack this week
[02:11] <HiddenWolf> mako, way cool. 
[02:12] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: with this weather?
[02:13] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks: As long as you stay inside a city, yeah. Nice and cozy. I wouldn't want to be managing a lan somewhere in the middle of nowhere, no. ;)
[02:14] <infinity> kamion, elmo : Whoever pushed the xkbutils binaries through NEW first will probably have the undying love of everyone here.
[02:14] <daniels> (and xauth, and xinit)
[02:14] <eazel7> I have a doubt, why ubuntu doesn't optimize all it's packages?
[02:14] <daniels> (and xrdb still, I think)
[02:14] <daniels> eazel7: it does
[02:14] <eazel7> daniels, I mean, for 586
[02:14] <Treenaks> daniels: not Gentoo-ishly so though :)
[02:15] <eazel7> I see the kernel, and the libc, and mplayer
[02:15] <eazel7> but not all the packages, is that useless?
[02:15] <Treenaks> eazel7: Ubuntu packages are (afaik) still optimized for P4 CPU's, but work down to i486 CPUs
[02:15] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks: why put in the extra effort for no reasonable gain.
[02:16] <Kamion> infinity: wasn't me
[02:16] <eazel7> aha, didn't know that was possible
[02:16] <Treenaks> eazel7: man gcc :)
[02:16] <eazel7> I'd rather to solve a maze... 
[02:16] <Kamion> we don't create separate packages for them because that really *is* detrimental (significant extra index file download time for users)
[02:17] <Kamion> and we don't rename them because (a) it's confusing and (b) it would be very significant desynchronisation with Debian that ... well, would be confusing
[02:18] <infinity> Kamion : s/pushed/pushes/  See the bit about me needing sleep.
[02:18] <eazel7> ah, ok
[02:19] <eazel7> is redcarpet open source?
[02:20] <daniels> yes
[02:20] <eazel7> I can't find the client source
[02:21] <daniels> ... how is this relevant to #ubuntu-devel?
[02:21] <eazel7> well, I'd like to try to adapt redcarpet to apt
[02:21] <Kamion> infinity: NEW's empty, so same answer applies :)
[02:28] <tseng> eazel7: look for open carpet
[02:28] <tseng> iirc it already did apt at some point in time
[02:28] <trygvebw> Oo
[02:29] <tseng> infinity: any idea why libapache2-mod-auth-kerb exists in debian for some time but seemingly not ubuntu?
[02:31] <hadess> yup
[02:31] <hadess> pitti: around?
[02:31] <pitti> Hi hadess 
[02:31] <pitti> nice to see you again; what's up with storage management?
[02:32] <hadess> storage management? :)
[02:32] <hadess> i think you have the wrong guy there
[02:32] <pitti> oh, sorry
[02:32] <pitti> mixed that up
[02:32] <hadess> no worries
[02:32] <hadess> i wanted to know whether the guy responsible for the bluetooth support SoC bounty came back to you
[02:33] <pitti> hadess: Pablo Durante? well, he reported back recently, but he didn't have something to present so far
[02:33] <eazel7> tseng, I've been in open carpet
[02:33] <eazel7> tseng, I was looking for the client
[02:33] <pitti> hadess: however, chmj handles the technical side now since I don't have bt
[02:34] <hadess> pitti: ha, ok
[02:34] <hadess> pitti: good to know he reported back, i haven't seen activity from him on any mailing-lists, apart from him asking for C++ API docs for bluez back in june
[02:36] <daniels> Kamion: both -2 and -3 built successfully (xkbutils), and -2 some time ago, but the archive's still empty ...
[02:36] <daniels> Kamion: they got source-NEWed in one big hit, but don't think they got binary-NEWed
[02:39] <hadess> chmj: do you know how far pablo (or is it paolo) durante got with his bluetooth work?
[02:42] <Kamion> daniels:   xkbutils |      7.0-3 |        breezy | source, amd64, i386, ia64, powerpc
[02:43] <Kamion> daniels: cron.daily's still running
[02:45] <chmj> hadess: he is busy with dbus at the moment, so he still doesn't have much
[02:45] <pitti> hadess: I saw him asking for hal stuff on the utopia list
[02:45] <pitti> oh, that reminds me of something
[02:45] <pitti> ogra: hal+hwdb? :-)
[02:46] <ogra> pitti, yes.. this week (apparently, since we have freeze on Aug 11th)
[02:47] <ogra> pitti, i had still some outstanding edubuntu stuff in the way
[02:47] <jani> elmo you know what the status of the mercurial package is? It is in sid but not in breezy.
[02:48] <ogra> jani, are you aware of the xfce4 merge bugs ? 
[02:49] <jani> Yes I am, I am talking to os-works upstream and debian folks
[02:49] <jani> to see which one to sync
[02:49] <jani> we synced from os-works for hoary
[02:49] <jani> they are taking our ubuntu1 changes
[02:49] <ogra> jani, please close them after the sync... the merges were supposed to be finished on Jul 21st
[02:49] <jani> but the debian folks started diverged
[02:50] <jani> ogra, I know, I'll close them but still didn't decide which source to sync from
[02:50] <jani> need to talk to crimsun, and to settle with the debian xfce team
[02:50] <ogra> jani, yes, i understand this.. just wanted to point out the bugs, so they dont stay open... 
[02:50] <jani> We have to mediate between two non-communicating upstreams duplicating work
[02:50] <ogra> heh
[02:51] <ogra> no fun i guess
[02:51] <jani> sure, thanks, in fact I didn't know there were bugs
[02:51] <jani> I was only aware of ongoin-merge on scott's page
[02:51] <jani> malone?
[02:51] <ogra> nope MOM bugs are in bugzilla... see the topic in #ubuntu-motu ... there is a link
[02:52] <jani> ok, thanks
[03:03] <pitti> seb128: ximian-connector and evolution-exchange both ship the translation domain evolution-exchange-2.4. Shall I just ignore ximian-connector?
[03:05] <carstenh> we have freeze in two weeks. it it possible that firewall-rules, which should be added to every package that provide a daemon will be added after the freeze?
[03:05] <pitti> that's pretty intrusive
[03:05] <pitti> carstenh: how many packages would this actually affect?
[03:06] <pitti> carstenh: and wouldn't it be better to ship the rules in the firewall package itself?
[03:06] <carstenh> pitti: didn't count them
[03:06] <carstenh> pitti: good point
[03:06] <pitti> so you could adapt them more easily
[03:07] <pitti> and in theory other firewalling systems are possible
[03:07] <carstenh> pitti: but it wolud make configuration more complex, as there are many packages listed that are not installed
[03:07] <pitti> carstenh: it's easy to determine whether a daemon is actually installed
[03:08] <carstenh> pitti: sure, so this should not be a problem
[03:08] <pitti> carstenh: eventually it could make more sense to ship the policies in their respective packages
[03:08] <pitti> carstenh: but not for breezy, I guess
[03:08] <seb128> pitti: ximian-connector is to drop from the archive
[03:09] <pitti> seb128: thanks
[03:09] <seb128> pitti: evolution-exchange is the new name of the package
[03:09] <carstenh> pitti: ok, thanks
[03:09] <carstenh> pitti: what about universe, should packages in universe also provide rules in breezy+1?
[03:11] <fabbione> hey jbailey 
[03:11] <pitti> Hi jbailey 
[03:11] <pitti> carstenh: there comes your primary mentor :-)
[03:11] <carstenh> hi jbailey 
[03:11] <fabbione> jbailey: #12942. kthxbye :P
[03:11] <jbailey> Heya Fabio!
[03:11] <jbailey> Hi Martin
[03:11] <jbailey> carstenh: =)
[03:11] <jbailey> Carsten. =
[03:11] <jbailey> )
[03:12] <fabbione> jbailey: back from OLS?
[03:12] <jbailey> fabbione: Yup.
[03:12] <carstenh> jbailey: should I paste you the last logs of the last few minutes?
[03:12] <jbailey> Finished my morning apt-get, beating X into working again, and ready for work. =)
[03:12] <fabbione> jbailey: did you have fun?
[03:12] <jbailey> carstenh: Ummm.  Depends.  Do you think it would be interesting to me? =)
[03:13] <carstenh> jbailey: yes :)
[03:13] <jbailey> carstenh: Then yes. =)
[03:13] <seb128> jbailey: hey
[03:13] <jbailey> fabbione: Lots.  Learned alot as always.  Now I'm just hoping that the alcohol didn't kill *those* cells.
[03:13] <jbailey> M. seb
[03:13] <fabbione> jbailey: ehehehehe
[03:14] <jbailey> fabbione: On Saturday night, the last person left my room at 04h50. =)
[03:14] <carstenh> jbailey: http://paste.debian.net/1313
[03:14] <seb128> jbailey: do you still have your evince bug on ppc? could you rebuild poppler without cairo and note if that fixes the issue?
[03:16] <doko> seb128: do you have an estimate for cairo 0.6?
[03:17] <carstenh> jbailey: so what do you think about a) shipping rules in ubuntu-firewall for breezy b) rules for packages in universe?
[03:17] <jbailey> carstenh: It might make sense to put the firewall rules in your package for breezy and push them out after that.
[03:17] <jbailey> Just that way you remove some of the time crunch.
[03:18] <seb128> doko: really soon
[03:18] <seb128> doko: this week
[03:18] <seb128> doko: why? any issue with 0.5.2 ?
[03:19] <jbailey> seb128: The bug appears to still exist, yes.
[03:20] <jbailey> seb128: Which evince 0.3.2-0ubuntu1
[03:20] <jbailey> s/Which/With/
[03:20] <seb128> jbailey: k, can you rebuild poppler without cairo ? :)
[03:20] <carstenh> jbailey: what about restarting the firewall if a package is installed?
[03:21] <seb128> jbailey: just change the debian/rules cairo option
[03:21] <carstenh> jbailey: if i provide the rules and don't touch i.e. apache i don't think it is possible
[03:21] <jbailey> seb128: Yes, dear.
[03:22] <seb128> jbailey: thanks
[03:22] <jbailey> carstenh: Right, that sucks.
[03:22] <doko> seb128: just to have only one gcc-4.0 upload
[03:23] <jbailey> carstenh: I think it  would be sad to shove that into the 'futures' category, but it might be necessary.
[03:23] <jbailey> We need a google 'spring of code' =)
[03:23] <carstenh> jbailey: we could use /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/, but only if packages are not installed with dpkg -i
[03:23] <jbailey> Right.  Using apt configs are really an option there.
[03:23] <jbailey> I don't think dpkg has hooks.
[03:23] <jbailey> Keybuk: *poke* ?
[03:23] <carstenh> jbailey: just for breezy, will be fixed in breezy+1
[03:24] <jbailey> seb128: Have to upgrade my build-machine, it'll be a moment.
[03:24] <carstenh> jbailey: what about universe, should it be supported too?
[03:24] <seb128> jbailey: no hurry, that's just to know if building without cairo fixes the issue
[03:25] <jbailey> carstenh: No, not if you're taking on all the packages.
[03:25] <jbailey> It would be something that advertise that universe could support, but it's a rats nest you really don't want to chase.
[03:25] <eazel7> gonna test breezy with the downgraded X
[03:25] <eazel7> bbl
[03:25] <jbailey> I'd say far better to take the top 5 or 6 most popular packages in universe and do them up as an example.
[03:26] <ogra> carstenh, at least provide a HOWTO for MOTU to adjust the universe packages if desired
[03:26] <carstenh> ogra: good idea, thanks
[03:26] <ogra> :)
[03:28] <carstenh> jbailey: ok, lets go to the next point :) what about the service-config-tool?
[03:29] <carstenh> jbailey: should i be integrated in firewall-gui or should it be an  extra tool
[03:29] <sivang> carstenh: do you mean services-admin?
[03:29] <carstenh> sivang: yes
[03:30] <carstenh> sivang: writing one is part of my bounty
[03:30] <sivang> carstenh: ah :) Well, I thought you were referring to the already available one
[03:30] <carstenh> sivang: no :)
[03:31] <sivang> carstenh: take a look at it, might get you some ideas maybe, run services-admin and see
[03:31] <carstenh> jbailey: if it shuold be extra, would services-admin adequate, should i try to port confiog-system-services or write a new one?
[03:33] <carstenh> sivang: yes, looks good :) i will have a closer look at it at least because of their database, imho all services-config-tools in ubuntu should use the same
[03:33] <sivang> carstenh: yes, it also follows a "role
[03:33] <sivang> carstenh: based approach, rather then specific program approach
[03:33] <sivang> carstenh: you might want to use the backends as well, if only to provide a better GUI
[03:34] <sivang> carstenh: (that would enable you to have unified control)
[03:34] <carstenh> sivang: originally i planned to use the backend from rcconf, but that was before i knew that ubunutu now has servicees-admin
[03:35] <sivang> carstenh: It was a more maintained module of the gnome system tools once, and now regained life due to it's maintainer putting some work into
[03:35] <sivang> carstenh: so it went under code cleaning, role based configuration and I *think* modularization of the backends
[03:36] <carstenh> sivang: oh, did not know that it existed before :)
[03:36] <sivang> carstenh: neither did i :-)
[03:37] <sivang> carstenh: I worked before hoary on the users-admin module, and so got to know the principle maintainer (you can meet him at #gst in the gimp net) so I know *bits* of stuff about g-s-t and the backends
[03:37] <sivang> carstenh: if you need anything, please feel free to ask me :)
[03:37] <carstenh> jbailey: s/confiog-system-services/system-config-services/
[03:37] <mdz> morning
[03:37] <jsgotangco> morning mdz
[03:38] <ogra> hey mdz 
[03:38] <pitti> Hi mdz 
[03:38] <sivang> hey pitti , morning mdz
[03:38] <carstenh> sivang: ok, thank you very much. i don't think i will need something, because i dropped all plans about integrating my gui in gst
[03:39] <ogra> mdz, mediawiki packages are ready and running... but i'll wait for infinity to see if i can move them to php5 before uploading to the archive
[03:39] <sivang> carstenh: ok, np :)
[03:39] <mdz> ogra: ok
[03:41] <jsgotangco> mdz: about pda testing, i'd rather settle for what's in main now for lack of time, a good baseline support for us though...
[03:41] <mdz> jsgotangco: what's in main now? not much
[03:42] <mdz> basically gnome-pilot, no?
[03:43] <jsgotangco> mdz: sync to evolution as well...but multisync holds promise but may have to test for other possible dependencies that won't be able to go to main for lack of time..
[03:43] <azeem> multisync never worked reliably, AFAICT
[03:43] <jdthood> carstenh: I just saw the discussion about a service manager.  I have just spent two weeks working with the author of the "bum" package.  It is a GNOME services manager.
[03:43] <jsgotangco> azeem: right...
[03:44] <jdthood> carstenh: It is in Debian NEW and will also be included in Ubuntu.
[03:44] <carstenh> jdthood: ok, thanks
[03:45] <carstenh> jdthood: do you know if it uses the same database as services-admin?
[03:45] <jsgotangco> azeem: weird though, is that 2 of my PPC devices get to sync with multisync albeit bad output
[03:45] <jsgotangco> azeem: while the rest of my palms dont
[03:45] <azeem> I'm not sure multisync works with PalmOS4 devices
[03:46] <Treenaks> azeem: I have a PalmOS 4 palm
[03:46] <jdthood> carstenh: I am pretty sure that it does not.
[03:46] <Treenaks> so I could try
[03:46] <azeem> or whenever the new set of apps (Contacts vs. Adresses) got introduces
[03:46] <carstenh> jdthood: a SyS-V service configuration tools nneds to store something like 30 20 cfsd
[03:46] <azeem> introduced, even
[03:46] <carstenh> jdthood: if it does not imho one of the two tools should be dropped from ubuntu
[03:46] <jdthood> carstenh: Yes, and bum uses its own files.  Likewise sysv-rc-conf uses its own files.
[03:47] <carstenh> jdthood: users may use one tool to disable a service and the other one to enable it
[03:47] <carstenh> jdthood: this really sucks :(
[03:47] <Keybuk> jbailey: 'sup?
[03:47] <azeem> 15:19 < jbailey> I don't think dpkg has hooks.
[03:48] <carstenh> jdthood: users will be very confused about it
[03:48] <Keybuk> "hooks" ?
[03:48] <ogra> jdthood, its more likely we'll use the g-s-t tool then bum...
[03:48] <azeem> triggers, I guess
[03:48] <Keybuk> no, it doesn't have anything like that
[03:48] <jdthood> Everything I have ever tested in g-s-t sucks and suck hard.
[03:48] <ogra> jdthood, as long as bum offers opportunitys like shutting down udev, hotplug and other essential services its not really feasable...
[03:49] <carstenh> jdthood: :-)
[03:49] <jdthood> ogra: I doesn't allow shutting off scripts in rcS.d any more.
[03:49] <sivang> jdthood: is BUM going to be the *official* service tool?
[03:49] <ogra> oh, thesaltydog refused to change to a dumbed down interface last time we spoke
[03:49] <jdthood> sivang: I don't know.  I just worked with the author to make sure that bum works correctly.
[03:50] <jdthood> Most service configurers will mangle one's sysv-rc runlevel configuration.
[03:50] <sivang> jdthood: as far as I know (which ma not be much all in all :) ) g-s-t is the official most-of-tasks gui admin tool :-)
[03:50] <sivang> jdthood: (for gnome upstream)
[03:51] <jdthood> GNOME upstream is geared toward a distribution that isn't Debian.
[03:51] <ogra> jdthood, the author worked thight with mvo iirc... they had some long discussions at guadec
[03:52] <jdthood> The author of g-s-t service-admin?
[03:52] <ogra> jdthood, yes
[03:52] <ogra> jdthood, canacho iirc
[03:52] <ogra> or garnacho
[03:52] <azeem> the latter
[03:52] <Treenaks> gaspacho?
[03:52] <ogra> haha
[03:53] <ogra> good appetite :)
[03:53] <Kamion> carstenh: why does *either* of them need a database? The "database" should be the positions of the rc symlinks in /etc/rc?.d, or the corresponding file-rc configuration, or whatever.
[03:53] <jdthood> The very _first_ operation I attempted using g-s-t services admin did not work properly.   https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12776
[03:53] <ogra> Kamion, for descriptions
[03:54] <ogra> Kamion, like "a powerful webserver" for apache ...
[03:54] <ogra> :)
[03:55] <jdthood> Kamion: If you disable a service you need to remember its "start" sequence number somehow.
[03:55] <carstenh> Kamion: this is imho not possible. cfsd is started in something like /etc/rc2.d/S30cfsd, if i disable it where shuold the priority "30" be stored?
[03:55] <Treenaks> ogra: isn't that part of the LSB-comment thingies in the first part of the file?
[03:55] <ogra> Treenaks, yup... but not all services have this yet....
[03:55] <Amaranth> hrm, i should have had hubWE send that CD after all
[03:55] <jdthood> Besides, the idea of storing sequence numbers in the initscripts is braindamaged.
[03:56] <Kamion> jdthood: It would be trivial to invent a way to store that in the filesystem too.
[03:56] <Amaranth> the one i was supposed to be getting last night didn't come through and now i'm without my computer for at least a whole week
[03:56] <carstenh> imho there should be a database that all service-config-tools use, i.e. /var/lib/services/database
[03:57] <Kamion> Only if it's accessible from the command line too.
[03:57] <jdthood> Kamion: However the information is stored, the problem is that different tools do it differently.
[03:57] <carstenh> Kamion: it is so trivial, that everyone which writes such a tool invents a new way :/
[03:58] <Kamion> jdthood: sure. All I'm asking is what the point of a separate database (that one needs special tools to edit, etc.) is.
[03:58] <jbailey> azeem: Thanks, had to run to a phone call.
[03:59] <jdthood> Kamion: You are suggesting using parallel rc.d directories as a way of remembering the sequence numbers?
[03:59] <Kamion> jdthood: no?
[03:59] <jbailey> seb128: Do I just remove  --enable-cairo-output  ?
[03:59] <Kamion> some other letter would do just fine
[03:59] <jdthood> Kamion: I am sure it would be possible.
[04:00] <Kamion> but in any case I wasn't suggesting any particular implementation, just anything that doesn't involve another silly hard-to-edit database
[04:00] <seb128> jbailey: yeah, that should do the trick (look for the ./configure summary to be sure)
[04:00] <carstenh> Kamion: you just found the reason why System V sometimes sucks :/
[04:00] <Kamion> carstenh: no I didn't
[04:01] <fabbione> mdz: yo
[04:01] <fabbione> hey Kamion 
[04:01] <carstenh> Kamion: ok, if you have a good solution for this i will be glad to hear it :)
[04:01] <Kamion> carstenh: I just suggested one above
[04:01] <fabbione> Kamion: can you please new libaio ?
[04:01] <Kamion> fabbione: is elmo not around? he's been NEWing stuff today.
[04:02] <fabbione> oh..
[04:02] <fabbione> haven't noticed
[04:02] <fabbione> i come back 30 minutes ago from a lot of Ubuntu love
[04:02] <fabbione> Kamion: yes i understand.. 
[04:02] <fabbione> don't worry and sorry
[04:02] <fabbione> elmo: ? :)
[04:03] <jdthood> Kamion: It's not a bad idea.  Something like?:  For service foo, update-rc.d would install both "start" and "stop" symlinks for services with the right sequence numbers.  Enabling a symlink would consist of unhiding it (removing initial '.').
[04:03] <carstenh> Kamion: oh, you are right, i did not see this. using lowercase letters is common for this way disabeling services
[04:04] <jdthood> ... or would consist of capitalizing its first letter.
[04:04] <Kamion> jdthood: that would be reasonable, yes (or lowercase letters, as carstenh suggests). As you point out, the problem is much more one of getting everyone to use the same scheme than of inventing a workable scheme.
[04:04] <jdthood> Kamion: Right.
[04:04] <marcin> hi all where can I find help for jde package (java development environment for emacs) it's not installable on hoary
[04:05] <ogra> jdthood, i dont think such a UI is something we want http://www.marzocca.net/Immagini/bum2_new.jpg its terribly confusing...
[04:05] <Kamion> alternatively, for rc[0-6] .d packages you could just s/S/K/ to enable and s/K/S/ to disable?
[04:05] <Kamion> er, "initscripts", not "packages"
[04:05] <fabbione> carstenh: ping?
[04:05] <carstenh> fabbione: pong
[04:05] <fabbione> carstenh: can i bother you a few minutes?
[04:05] <jdthood> ogra: TMI, eh?
[04:05] <carstenh> fabbione: sure
[04:06] <eazel7> got into breezy, with X downgraded, but latest 686 kernel didn't boot
[04:06] <ogra> jdthood, TMI ?
[04:06] <fabbione> carstenh: thanks
[04:06] <jdthood> ogra: "too much information"
[04:06] <jbailey> carstenh: I'm not sure how the existing services-config-tool works, so I don't have an idea off hand,  What are your thoughts so far?
[04:06] <ogra> jdthood, if my mother can start/stop a service with such a tool without getting scared away its fine...
[04:06] <jdthood> ogra: There is less detail on the "Summary" tab which is what is shown by default.
[04:07] <ogra> jdthood, the fact that there are tabs at all is what i'm criticizing... and that one tab talks about "runlevels" 
[04:07] <ogra> jdthood, this tool might be ok for a admin, bu not for a standard user
[04:07] <jdthood> Anyway, I was only involved in critiquing the correctness of the program, not as a usability guy.
[04:08] <carstenh> jbailey: the main advantage of a own service-config-tool would be a proper integration in the firewall
[04:08] <carstenh> jbailey: but we dropped such plans (at least for now)
[04:08] <jdthood> ogra: g-s-t's interface is indeed simpler.
[04:08] <ogra> yep
[04:08] <carstenh> jbailey: so what you you want to archieve with a own service-config-tool?
[04:08] <ogra> jdthood, thats my concern :)
[04:09] <jdthood> However, I don't trust g-s-t.  Every time I try it it screws up my configuration files.
[04:09] <carstenh> jbailey: if you can answer this question i could suggest something :)
[04:09] <jdthood> Look at all the bug reports filed against the network-admin component.
[04:09] <jdthood> The authors don't respond to bug reports in a timely fashion.  They seem to have no clue.
[04:10] <carstenh> jbailey: just implementing another one does not really make sense. and we had to use the database from the standard srv-cfg-tools
[04:10] <jbailey> carstenh: You mean from the introduction of http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/Firewalls ?
[04:10] <carstenh> jbailey: yes
[04:12] <carstenh>  potentially extend the network tool or create another tool to allow services to be activated or deactivated <- this is already in ubuntu now
[04:12] <marcin> hi I'm just looking on your conversation for a few minutes and I think that you touch extremely important problem
[04:12] <carstenh> jbailey: but i can write or port another one, if you think it makes sense
[04:12] <marcin> the problem is that there are nice tools for network management, firewall etc.
[04:13] <marcin> but they don't work together in the way people want to
[04:14] <carstenh> marcin: Unix philosophy: Write programs that do one thing and do it well.
[04:14] <marcin> carstenh, yeah
[04:14] <carstenh> marcin: i don't really see this problem. if we will have a few tools that to their job right it would be great
[04:14] <marcin> carstenh, then I'll give you an example of 'real life' philiosophy
[04:15] <jdthood> In my experience with GNU/Linux the administration tools have always sucked.  The reason is that the people who write the tools don't understand the subsystems that their tools configure.  The people who do understand the subsystems don't use configuration tools.
[04:15] <ogra> marcin, we wont use yast *g*
[04:16] <marcin> carstenh, imagine yourself an user with laptop - this guy just switched from windows - he is not an advanced one but he uses his laptop very often - at home and at work
[04:16] <carstenh> marcin: ok
[04:16] <sivang> ogra: you heared there are people trying to port yast to debian ? =)
[04:16] <ogra> sivang, old news :)
[04:17] <marcin> carstenh, at home he has DSL and he connects his laptop directly to internet (untrusted connection) and he also uses his laptop at work
[04:17] <sivang> ogra: did they make anything out of it? 
[04:17] <ogra> sivang, no idea, i lost my interest in yast with suse 4.2 :)
[04:17] <jbailey> carstenh: Well, it's not so much "my" wants as it is the bounty.  If it doesn't make sense because the functionality is better done another way, it's not written in stone.
[04:17] <\sh> re
[04:18] <carstenh> marcin: ok, at work he has a system-admin which helps him and at home he has dhcp
[04:18] <\sh> elmo: thx for the syncs :)
[04:18] <carstenh> marcin: firewall will be enabled per default in future
[04:18] <marcin> carstenh, where he has LAN with good firewall so he feels himself pretty secure and he also needs to use samba shares and he needs to use shared printers and so on
[04:18] <carstenh> marcin: and every service he has installed should be enabled per default
[04:19] <marcin> carstenh, and sometimes he needs to use his laptop on presentations while he doesn't have eth connectivity - so he uses wi-fi connection in work
[04:19] <carstenh> jbailey: it is not that it is better done in another way, it is more that it is already there
[04:19] <jdthood> marcin: You are describing a system that is not the one for which Debian was designed.
[04:19] <marcin> carstenh, and finally on weekend he goes to his home on the country side where an only ability is to use gprs connection via bluetooth and his cell phone
[04:19] <carstenh> jbailey: so if there a reason to implement a new one i can to this
[04:20] <jdthood> marcin: Debian was designed for server boxes sitting on the floor with screwed-in network cards and static network addresses.
[04:20] <marcin> jdthood, are we on debian-devel channel or another one?
[04:21] <marcin> jdthood, I thought that we are on ubuntu-devel and we are talking about new tools for network/firewall/services management - right?
[04:21] <carstenh> jbailey: and if i will implement one, i'm open for ideas that i.e. bum or services-admin don't have
[04:21] <jdthood> marcin: To my knowledge, Ubuntu doesn't yet differ from Debian in any significant way as regards dynamic network configuration.
[04:21] <ogra> jdthood, does debian use NM ?
[04:22] <ogra> would be news to me
[04:22] <pitti> well, do we?
[04:22] <jdthood> ogra: No, NM is not yet available for Debian.  It is available for Ubuntu but it is still in an alpha state.
[04:22] <ogra> pitti, we will :) 
[04:22] <carstenh> marcin: is it more easy on mac os x, beos or windows?
[04:22] <marcin> jdthood, I agree and all I want to tell to you guys is that you don't need yet another GUI frontend to /etc/init.d/someservice start|stop
[04:22] <pitti> ogra: who cares for it? It's still horribly broken (well, it was two weeks ago)
[04:22] <carstenh> marcin: you just explanined a very complicated setup
[04:23] <ogra> jdthood, this will change soon, NM is a brezy goal
[04:23] <ogra> pitti, Diziet 
[04:23] <marcin> carstenh, absolutely - I don't know about mac/beos but it is very easy on windows
[04:23] <pitti> ah, cool (that's Ian's new nick, interesting :-) )
[04:23] <ogra> heh
[04:23] <marcin> carstenh, this laptop is dualboot
[04:24] <marcin> carstenh, and in fact this is a main problem - this guy expects ubuntu to work simmilar to winXP
[04:24] <carstenh> marcin: what is missing is a frontend for /etc/network/interfaces
[04:24] <carstenh> marcin: ... at least if i understand the problem
[04:24] <marcin> carstenh, and I don't agree with you at this point
[04:25] <marcin> carstenh, you don't need frontend  for /etc/network/interfaces in fact for /etc/something at all
[04:25] <sivang> pitti: were you referring to Ian Murdock? :)
[04:25] <ogra> marcin, do you know how NM works ? it is supposed to detect networks automatically and configure them...
[04:26] <pitti> sivang: no, Ian Jackson
[04:26] <marcin> ogra, yes I know NM
[04:26] <ogra> marcin, there is no user interaction needed as long as a dhcp server is available
[04:26] <marcin> ogra, it is pretty cool idea
[04:26] <sivang> pitti: ah , ok, I saw this name also one many of the debian manuals :)
[04:26] <marcin> ogra, but at it's current state it doesn't work with ppp connections (AFAIK)
[04:26] <ogra> marcin, so if we get it as planned in breezy, do your objections still apply ?
[04:27] <ogra> marcin, thats true...
[04:27] <carstenh> jbailey: but at least it is ok to write two tools, one for firewall and one for services?
[04:27] <pitti> brb, rebootin
[04:27] <marcin> ogra, yes because NM is pretty cool 
[04:27] <marcin> ogra, but it should work with all kinds of connections
[04:27] <ogra> yep..
[04:28] <ogra> but it will evolve over time :)
[04:29] <marcin> ogra, and another thing is that it should work nice with firewall
[04:29] <sivang> carstenh: why not using the renewed services-admin and putting effort into more of the firewall work?
[04:29] <jbailey> carstenh: The biggest appeal is, like you mentioned last week, that the Max OS/X firewall is *really* pretty for doing firewall services changes.
[04:29] <jbailey> carstenh: My ideal dream is that they're as integrated as possible.
[04:29] <ogra> marcin, thats what carstenh is working on :)
[04:29] <jbailey> carstenh: So we're just poking what the limits of that are, really.
[04:30] <marcin> ogra, cool
[04:30] <carstenh> jbailey: it has a few limitations
[04:31] <mjg59_> Oh ungh.
[04:31] <carstenh> jbailey: and i hope to write something that is as simple as the mac os x thing and more configurable (only if you enable expert-mode)
[04:31] <mjg59_> Is -devel *still* bidirectionally gated to the forums?
[04:31] <ogra> mjg59_, yes
[04:31] <carstenh> jbailey: so in my current plans the services-part does not fit in the firewall gui (at least one button more :()
[04:34] <mdz> Riddell: you've added some things to the kubuntu seeds which need main inclusion reports
[04:36] <mdz> Riddell: see http://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/anastacia.txt
[04:37] <pitti> seb128: I'm back in breezy; what do I have to do again to get my fonts back in mozilla-firefox?
[04:38] <jbailey> seb128: Should just replacing libpoppler0c2_0.3.3-0ubuntu1_powerpc.deb
[04:38] <jbailey>  and libpoppler0c2-glib_0.3.3-0ubuntu1_powerpc.deb be enough, or should evince need to be  rebuilt too?
[04:40] <jdthood> pitti: Do you have firefox with no words?
[04:40] <pitti> jdthood: with no fonts (just some dashes)
[04:40] <jdthood> I solved the problem by purging mozilla-firefox and installing "firefox".
[04:40] <pitti> jdthood: right, firefox works fine
[04:40] <mdz> mjg59_: iirc there is an informational note there which says "don't post"
[04:40] <pitti> jdthood: but I'd like to test the hoary package
[04:41] <ogra> pitti, mozilla-hangman ? 
[04:41] <pitti> jdthood: and up to some days ago that worked fine
[04:41] <mjg59_> mdz: This doesn't seem to stop random forum spam stuff
[04:41] <ogra> yes, its annoying
[04:43] <ogra> mjg59_, i'm just packaging the last gnome-power, do you think its good enough for us ? (since i'll already have to break UVF for it)
[04:44] <siretart> elmo: did you get my sync request for piuparts?
[04:45] <pitti> seb128, jdthood: nevermind, my fault. I installed firefox in my breezy system instead of in the hoary dchroot. works now
[04:46] <pitti> sorry for the noise
[04:46] <Riddell> mdz: ok, I'll try and write those up today
[04:47] <jdthood> pitti: Note that alsa-base and alsa-utils don't Depend on each other any more.  I don't know whether or not this has any consequences for seeding in Breezy.
[04:47] <mdz> Riddell: I'm not too fussed about the stuff which comes from KDE upstream if they're known to be good folks, but there are at least some additional dependencies too which should be sanity-checked
[04:47] <Riddell> sure
[04:47] <mdz> Riddell: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMainInclusionRequirements if you didn't have that already
[04:47] <mjg59_> ogra: I think so, yes
[04:48] <ogra> mjg59_, ok, then its worth it :) thanks
[04:48] <bddebian> Howdy
[04:48] <pitti> jdthood: good point, thanks. we should just add them to ubuntu-desktop then, I guess
[04:50] <ogra> haha, funny... as soon as i posted m blog entry about mediawiki packages debian steps up and presents some to me... i wonder why they dint promote them yet
[04:53] <sivang> hey bddebian 
[04:54] <bddebian> Hello sivang
[04:55] <sivang> bddebian: how are you? what are you hacking on these days? 
[04:55] <bddebian> sivang: Just trying to help with Universe merges from Debian.  Causing others more work. ;-)
[04:57] <sivang> bddebian: heh, I feel the same :)
[04:57] <\sh> daniels: when can we expect xmkmf?
[04:59] <carstenh> who decides if bum or services-admin becomes the ubuntu standard service-config-tool?
[04:59] <sivang> carstenh: I think jdub can help you
[05:00] <carstenh> sivang: thanks
[05:00] <carstenh> jdub: ping
[05:01] <carstenh> jdub: who decides if bum or services-admin becomes the ubuntu standard service-config-tool? and if you are the one, do you already know which one will become standard?
[05:08] <sivang> seb128: http://muse.19inch.net/~sivan/lpint/launchpad-integration/ , new lpint package that builds now :) (thanks to jamesh fix)
[05:12] <trulux> anyone experienced problems importing a GPG key into launchpad?
[05:13] <bddebian> trulux: Haven't tried it yet.  I sent it to mako
[05:14] <trulux> bddebian: it just doesn't work for me
[05:14] <bddebian> Hmm, maybe I should check it out
[05:14] <warty_> hi
[05:15] <warty_> i need help please
[05:15] <warty_> toshiba portege 3440ct whitou cd rom
[05:15] <warty_> How can I install ubuntu
[05:15] <carstenh> warty_: this channel is for development only, please try #ubuntu, thanks
[05:15] <warty_> im sorry
[05:16] <bob2> user support is in #ubuntu, not here
[05:16] <warty_> sorry
[05:16] <warty_> thanks , bye
[05:19] <marcin> jbailey, hi
[05:20] <jbailey> marcin: Hello
[05:20] <marcin> jbailey, I got a question about calendaringSynchronization
[05:21] <marcin> jbailey, could you tell me what is the status of this goal?
[05:21] <jbailey> marcin: I need to check to see whether or not the evolution bounty has been satisfied yet.  I expect that it probably has not.
[05:22] <marcin> jbailey, afaik it isn't
[05:22] <hub_> guys, for synchronization, have a look at OpenSync
[05:23] <jbailey> marcin: Evolution and  Sunbird are probably the only reasonable targets for this, largely dependant on upstream.
[05:23] <hub_> it might provide the needed infrastructure
[05:23] <azeem> hub_: is it mature?
[05:23] <jbailey> hub_: Cool, thanks for the tip.
[05:23] <hub_> azeem: it is being developped and used
[05:23] <azeem> it's written by the same guy as multisync, AFAIK
[05:23] <hub_> yep
[05:24] <hub_> multisync end up being the gtk/gnome frontend
[05:24] <hub_> and opensync being the framework
[05:24] <mae> what is opensync/multisync
[05:24] <hub_> I wish we had iSync functionnality, but more open
[05:24] <hub_> mae: a framework to synchronize PIM data
[05:24] <mae> ahh
[05:25] <hub_> mae: from devices like cell-phones, PDA
[05:25] <hub_> and from apps like Evo, Korganizer, sunbird
[05:25] <hub_> etc
[05:25] <mae> nice
[05:25] <hub_> I have 3 address book currently, and would like to keep them synced
[05:25] <hub_> 1 in the Palm, 1 on the cell phone, and 1 in Evo
[05:25] <hub_> :-/
[05:26] <azeem> same here
[05:26] <hub_> opensync is supposed to fullfill this need
[05:26] <azeem> except I never got multisync to work properly with my S55
[05:26] <Amaranth> hub_: can you still send that CD? :)
[05:26] <Amaranth> hub_: my source fell through
[05:26] <hub_> Amaranth: sure. mail me your snail-mail address 
[05:26] <hub_> Amaranth: hub@figuiere.net
[05:27] <marcin> jbailey, so,. you need synchronization support for evo and sunbird - ical or something more?
[05:27] <marcin> jbailey, and what about syncml etc ?
[05:28] <jbailey> I think we were mostly looking at caldav for those.
[05:28] <hub_> opensycn as all of that in some state
[05:28] <jbailey> It looks like the most sane protocol for managing this.
[05:29] <Amaranth> hub_: sent, thanks
[05:33] <marcin> jbailey, ok then you expect evo as caldav client - then what about cadav server?
[05:34] <fabbione> daniels: ping?
[05:34] <hub_> Amaranth: got it
[05:35] <hub_> Amaranth: will be mailed tomorrow
[05:35] <hub_> Amaranth: colony 2 ?
[05:35] <jbailey> marcin: It's too much to cover for breezy.  That's why the spec basically just covers evolution right now, with a note saying redo this after breezy.
[05:36] <marcin> jbailey, ok
[05:36] <marcin> jbailey, and how this goal is related with gnome bounty?
[05:36] <carstenh> jbailey: should things like forwarding, enable logging or ssh=eth1 be possible with the gui?
[05:37] <Amaranth> hub_: if you can, otherwise hoary works
[05:37] <jbailey> marcin: The gnome bounty is to implement caldav in evolution, I think ideally for use with hula.
[05:37] <jbailey> marcin: I haven't looked at it in several weeks.
[05:37] <hub_> Amaranth: getting colony 2
[05:38] <marcin> jbailey, well there is no word about caldav in evo bounty
[05:38] <jbailey> carstenh: forwarding, no - I tend to think of the gui as being desktop not router.  Logging:  Sure.  But probably nothing that can't be expressed by adding a checkbox next to a rule (And where do the logs go?).  ssh=eth1?  Hmm..  Harder question.
[05:39] <jbailey> carstenh: Depends how easy it is to express.
[05:39] <jbailey> carstenh: My mother won't know what an eth1 one is, and probably shouldn't need to.
[05:39] <siretart> jbailey: any problems with the javahl in subversion thingy?
[05:39] <jbailey> marcin: I'll have to revisit it.
[05:40] <jbailey> siretart: I don't remember off hand what the blocked was before.  I'll have to look at my logs.  I've been away for the past week.
[05:40] <jbailey> blocker, rather.
[05:41] <carstenh> jbailey: all these things would be more easy if we move services to a new tool, but the the firewall-gui would not look like the mac os x equivalent. so i will skip these parts (including independent configuration of different interfaces) and orientate my gui more on the mac os x thing
[05:41] <siretart> jbailey: ah, no problems. I sent you a patch against the subversion package to enable building javahl with gcj-4.0. this is needed for subclipse
[05:41] <carstenh> jbailey: is this ok?
[05:42] <siretart> jbailey: you said you will look at it after finishing some java policy...
[05:42] <jbailey> siretart: Ah right.  I need to sync with wasabi on that and get it written.
[05:42] <carstenh> s/but the/but then/
[05:42] <jbailey> carstenh: It's not necessary that it be identical in look, but with the similar goal of "it should be this easy"
[05:43] <jbailey> carstenh: I'm not terribly good at GUIs, so there's a limited amount of advice I can provide there.  I can ask our gui expert for time if you'd like.
[05:43] <carstenh> jbailey: i think this is not nessessary, thanks :)
[05:44] <ogra_> grmblfjx
[05:44] <ogra_> carstenh, did you get my last sentence ?
[05:44] <jbailey> carstenh: 'kay.  If it comes down to it, it's a resource we can get.
[05:44] <jbailey> ogra: "<ogra_> grmblfjx" isn't a sentence...
[05:44] <jbailey> =)
[05:44] <ogra_> carstenh, how easy will it be to disable your firewall.... i.e. i'm developing edubuntu currently and will have a ltsp thin client environment based on our default desktop.... can i disable it easily (i.e. by a debconf option)?
[05:44] <ogra_> jbailey, :p
[05:44] <wasabi> hi
[05:45] <jbailey> Heya Jeremy.
[05:45] <bddebian> Hell wasabi
[05:45] <wasabi> Who?
[05:45] <carstenh> ogra_: just edit /etc/default/firewall
[05:45] <bddebian> Err Hello wasabi.. :-(  SOrry :-)
[05:45] <jbailey> wasabi: bah, Jerry, sorry
[05:45] <wasabi> =)
[05:45] <carstenh> jbailey: what about debconf?
[05:45] <bddebian> Oh, that was to Jeff.. 
[05:45] <wasabi> I saw my name but that's all.
[05:46] <ogra_> carstenh, ah, ok... thanks ( i dont want it to run on the thinclient as you might understand ;) )
[05:46] <mdz> ogra: of course we do, only with a different configuration
[05:46] <jbailey> carstenh: What do you think is the right answer?  Debconf could twiddle something in /etc/defaults that says "Get out of the way and stay there"  Debian policy says that ltsp packages shouldn't touch other packages' configs, though, and the priority option shouldn't be high.
[05:46] <mdz> ogra: fabbione has been discussing the firewall needs of thinclient with carstenh, I believe
[05:47] <jbailey> wasabi: The Java policy that we need to throw together to make sure that Java apps are consistant.
[05:47] <carstenh> mdz: ack
[05:47] <ogra> mdz, ill run it on the server, which also is my gateway... but not on te thin client at all...
[05:47] <fabbione> ogra: yes i did a few minutes ago...
[05:47] <seb128> pitti: k
[05:47] <ogra> fabbione, ??
[05:47] <seb128> jbailey: yep
[05:47] <seb128> sivang: k
[05:47] <fabbione> ogra: firewall talking on the server...
[05:47] <ogra> ah... sorry ... to slow with scrollback here
[05:47] <seb128> jbailey: does it work with it?
[05:48] <marcin> jbailey, http://www.gnome.org/bounties/Calendar.html#127538 there is about .ics file upload - not about caldav
[05:48] <carstenh> jbailey: should not touch other packages config means that it is not possible for them to add a profiles or something similar?
[05:48] <carstenh> jbailey: does not sound good :(
[05:48] <fabbione> ogra: but only about the NAT part of the server...
[05:48] <fabbione> no more than that.
[05:48] <carstenh> jbailey: i think we can skip debconf if we have a sane default-config
[05:49] <carstenh> jbailey: but it is your decision
[05:50] <carstenh> ogra: why do you need to disable the firewall? every installed service is accessable from outside per default
[05:50] <ogra> mdz, btw i had some strange issues with nfs when testing ltsp on the weekend it couldnt mount right away... only on the second or third attempt... i founr nothing in the logs and it works now on every attempt... any hints where else beside the logs i could look if it occurs again ?
[05:50] <carstenh> ogra: ethereal?
[05:50] <ogra> carstenh, its no necessary to run it on the thiclient
[05:50] <fabbione> ogra: i did open a bug right this morning 
[05:50] <carstenh> ogra: ok
[05:50] <ogra> carstenh, good shot
[05:50] <fabbione> ogra: it's nfsmount timeout issue
[05:51] <ogra> fabbione, ah...
[05:51] <elmo> fabbione: does libaio really not work on amd64?
[05:51] <fabbione> instead i am having problems.. my client doesn't get a proper hostname
[05:51] <fabbione> elmo: i am waiting for the oracle guys to show up...
[05:51] <ogra> it didnt occure today anymore though... might be caused by the network cable temperature or cosmic rays...
[05:51] <fabbione> elmo: for now leave the arches as they are.. i hope it was only a mistake
[05:52] <carstenh> jbailey: so should we use one debconf-question "Should the firewall be started?"?
[05:52] <siretart> elmo: did you get my email about puiparts? I'd like to see that package in ubuntu...
[05:53] <fabbione> ogra: do you know what assign the hostname to the thinclient?
[05:53] <fabbione> ogra: i keep getting a mere (none)
[05:53] <fabbione> and as a consequence everything else fail
[05:53] <ogra> oh... i cant get this far, since my login keeps just flashing...and there are no consoles :)
[05:53] <jbailey> seb128: Whups, looks like configure picked it up anyway because of the build-deps, redoing the test.
[05:53] <ogra> X breakage :)
[05:53] <fabbione> ogra: ah ok
[05:54] <jbailey> ogra: Should there always be no firewall on the thin client?
[05:54] <fabbione> ogra: but if you don't get the hostname, you won't be able to login anyway
[05:55] <carstenh> fabbione: did you read jbaileys comment on 17:46:49?
[05:55] <fabbione> so that needs to be investigated first
[05:55] <ogra> jbailey, my server is the default GW and my transparent proxy, if i run a FW it will be there
[05:55] <fabbione> carstenh: no... sorry...
[05:55] <jbailey> ogra: Part of the idea is that there's a deny all until a service is installed, at which point the needed ports are openned, to help protect against trojans.  (The user can't install their own listener)
[05:56] <ogra> jbailey, the pupils wont be able to install anything on their thin client , thats done on the server by the teacher/admin only
[05:56] <fabbione> carstenh: can you please quote? i don't have timestamps
[05:56] <carstenh> fabbione: -> query
[05:56] <fabbione> carstenh: sure..
[05:56] <jbailey> ogra: Right click download off a webpage will be disabled?
[05:56] <ogra> jbailey, the server has the firewall, all traffic gets routed through the server
[05:57] <ogra> jbailey, nope...
[05:57] <jbailey> ogra: Sure, but that's a hard outside, squishy-inside model of firewall.  
[05:57] <jbailey> ogra: Part of this is supposed to be to firm up the workstations individually so that the internal network isn't automatically assumed to be trusted.
[05:58] <marcin> jbailey, anyway I would like to work on this CalendaringSynchronization - if you could then please think about it and ping on this channel and we could talk about it ok?
[05:58] <ogra> jbailey, WS != thin client
[05:58] <jbailey> marcin: Yes.  What timezone are you in?
[05:59] <mdz> ogra: I am pretty sure we will want to run custom firewall rules on the client as well
[05:59] <ogra> jbailey, i dont want to disable it on a workstation install
[05:59] <mdz> thin clients should generally be blocked inbound, unless they're running a print server or such
[05:59] <jbailey> ogra: I don't understand the distinction you're making then.  To me a thin client is essentially a worstation that happens to use a remote harddrive.
[05:59] <ogra> mdz, ok...
[05:59] <mdz> jbailey: not exactly; a thin client is a system whose user processes run on a remote server
[06:00] <ogra> jbailey, edubuntu will have a ltsp install by default and a optional standalone workstation install...
[06:00] <jbailey> mdz: Ah, that makes quite a bit more sense then.  I wasn't thinking in terms of just being a X term.
[06:00] <marcin> jbailey, Poznan, Poland it is DST +1
[06:01] <ogra> jbailey, i dont consider firewalls necessary on a thin client... but you heard mdz's word ... so i'll follow ;)
[06:01] <marcin> jbailey, but currently I'm online from 10 am to... about 3 am so just try
[06:01] <jbailey> marcin: Okay, I'm (-0400) right now.  Will you be online in a few hours?  I haven't though about this.  Either that or I can try and make sure I have time for you tomorrow morning.  This is my first day back right now, so I'm still building up my worklist right now.
[06:02] <jbailey> marcin: Right. =)
[06:02] <marcin> jbailey, sure 
[06:02] <marcin> jbailey, there is 6pm now - I'm going to stay online till 3am (or something like this)
[06:03] <jbailey> Sounds lovely.
[06:03] <jbailey> Blue wizard needs food, badly.
[06:03] <carstenh> jbailey: we need to talk about how ltsp can add profiles to the firewall
[06:04] <jbailey> carstenh: Yeah.  It's a case I hadn't though about.
[06:04] <carstenh> jbailey: and assign interfaces to them
[06:04] <jsgotangco> later guys
[06:04] <carstenh> jbailey: adding profiles should be possible (it does not change exiosting files)
[06:05] <ogra> carstenh, feel free to bug me for tests as soon as X is in shape to use ltsp again
[06:05] <carstenh> jbailey: but assigning interfaces to them forces them to change /etc/firewall/conf
[06:05] <carstenh> ogra: X?
[06:06] <ogra> carstenh, yes, X is totally broken... thin clients have no console...
[06:06] <mdz> fabbione: did you have issues with X and ltsp?
[06:06] <ogra> carstenh, i cant test it in the current state
[06:07] <carstenh> ogra: ah, ok. i thought you expected me to fix some things in X ;)
[06:07] <ogra> carstenh, go ahead if you want to, daniels will surely accept patches :) 
[06:08] <carstenh> ogra: i think i have enought work with my firewall :)
[06:08] <ogra> heh
[06:08] <jbailey> carstenh: I'm going to run off for food so I can think clearly, bbiab. =)
[06:10] <ogra> fabbione, do you get to the point where it tries to start X ?
[06:11] <fabbione> ogra: yes.
[06:11] <ogra> does it start ?
[06:11] <fabbione> no
[06:11] <fabbione> ogra: if you can switch to console.. check what's in /var/log/ldm.conf
[06:11] <ogra> hmm, so my issue might be the same... how do you know its the hostname ?
[06:11] <fabbione> it will tell you what is failing
[06:12] <carstenh> jbailey-lunch: if we would provide a tool that alters the configuration of ubuntu-firewall and they use it, would that be ok?
[06:12] <fabbione> ogra: i have root@(none): <- no hostname
[06:12] <ogra> i cant switch to console...
[06:12] <ogra> hmm
[06:12] <mdz> the hostname is ugly, but doesn't break anything and so I haven't bothered to fix it yet
[06:12] <fabbione> ogra: than you still have a borked X
[06:12] <ogra> yep
[06:12] <fabbione> mdz: how can it work for you???
[06:12] <carstenh> jbailey-lunch: is firewall-gui allowed to change the configuration of ubuntu-firewall?
[06:12] <ogra> mdz, but it should work with hoary, shouldnt it ? 
[06:12] <fabbione> here it fails miserably...
[06:13] <mdz> fabbione: if it fails, it is not because of the hostname
[06:13] <ogra> mdz, hoary in /opt/ltsp i mean
[06:13] <mdz> at least, that worked fine a couple of weeks ago when I last tried it
[06:13] <fabbione> mdz: it fails because of the call to hostname
[06:13] <fabbione> mdz: i have the entire zone in the dns
[06:13] <mdz> ogra: hoary doesn't have ltsp-client
[06:13] <fabbione> nslookup gets to it
[06:13] <mdz> ogra: or initramfs-tools
[06:13] <mdz> probably others
[06:13] <ogra> grmpf... true
[06:14] <mdz> fabbione: what call to hostname?
[06:14] <ogra> i was just thinking about a hoary CD since the ltsp install script will need tweaks for CD installation anyway
[06:14] <carstenh> jbailey-lunch: if not, could we merge those packages? (sounds ugly, i know)
[06:14] <fabbione> mdz: /etc/init.d/ltsp-client-setup
[06:14] <fabbione> configure_resolver() {
[06:14] <mdz> fabbione: $(hostname) works fine, it just returns "(none)"
[06:14] <mdz> for me anyway
[06:14] <fabbione> correct
[06:15] <fabbione> it returns (none) here too
[06:15] <ogra> fabbione, thats just ugly, but why shouldnt it work ?
[06:15] <fabbione> but the point is that the hostname value is used to export the display towards the client
[06:15] <ogra> fabbione, its ssh
[06:15] <ogra> there are no display exports
[06:15] <mdz> fabbione: where?
[06:16] <fabbione> ogra: well tell it to gnome or whatever fails with (none)
[06:16] <fabbione> let me grab the logs again..
[06:16] <fabbione> hold on a sec
[06:16] <ogra> fabbione, gnome needs a working loopback, but can live without hostname afaik
[06:17] <ogra> as long as any value (even (none) gets returned)
[06:17] <fabbione> env LTSP_CLIENT=(none) x-session-manager;
[06:17] <fabbione> AHHH
[06:17] <fabbione> DAMN
[06:17] <fabbione> it's missing xauth
[06:17] <ogra> heh
[06:18] <mdz> fabbione: :-)
[06:18] <fabbione> sorry..i start to feel sort of tired...
[06:18] <ogra> wow, it seems i really kicked off something with my mediawiki packages... debian starts getting really busy
[06:18] <fabbione> now...let's find xauth
[06:18] <ogra> :)
[06:18] <mdz> it probably ought to set a hostname of ltsp<ip address in hex> or such
[06:19] <mdz> fabbione: xauth is nonexistent in breezy right now
[06:19] <fabbione> mdz: i had to build other packages too manually to get X working on my ws yesterday.. one more one less makes no difference :)
[06:20] <Kamion> xauth is there as source, but FTBFS
[06:20] <fabbione> the usual missing B-D
[06:20] <fabbione> it builds fine here.. but it's not exactly what i would call a minimal system :P
[06:27] <zul> oh be nice
[06:27] <fabbione> it doesn't recognize unix: connections anymore....
[06:27] <zul> gah?
[06:28] <lamont__> seb128: any librsvg2 uploads in the near future?
[06:29] <fabbione> bad display name "unix:10.0" in add command
[06:29] <seb128> lamont__: not planned
[06:30] <lamont__> seb128: OK.  means I have to actually test things..
[06:32] <fabbione> xauth is busted
[06:32] <fabbione> mdz: i am sorry.. but i don't think i can go any further for today
[06:33] <fabbione> i really don't feel lucky to fix xauth
[06:33] <lamont__> mdz: thoughts on the evilness of binNMU's of -ubuntuN packages?
[06:33] <fabbione> ogra: the nfsmount bug is #12942
[06:35] <ogra> fabbione, hmm, i always tested with the same single client on a idling server....
[06:35] <fabbione> ogra: i experienced in both situation
[06:36] <ogra> and i'm not sure there is any negotiation done in my network....
[06:36] <ogra> as i said, i had this yersterday while testing... but it disappeared today, with the same setup
[06:37] <JaneW> time to go
[06:37] <JaneW> bye
[06:37] <ogra> bye Jan
[06:37] <ogra> bye JaneW 
[06:37] <JaneW> bye ogra
[06:40] <lamont__> ENOPITTI
[06:42] <mjg59_> Is there any way to start an install from DOS?
[06:42] <bddebian> Eeks
[06:43] <fabbione> ogra: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/xauth
[06:43] <fabbione> ogra: grab that binary to have ssh -X to work
[06:43] <fabbione> just copy it in /usr/bin on the server
[06:43] <fabbione> the others should stay away from it
[06:43] <lamont__> mjg59_: hrm.. copy a disk image to the hard drive while booted from a dos floppy???
[06:43] <ogra> fabbione, in /usr/bin or in /opt7ltsp/usr/bin ?
[06:44] <ogra> s/7/\//
[06:44] <mjg59_> lamont__: Are they included on the CD?
[06:44] <carstenh> mjg59_: loadlin and debootstrap?
[06:44] <lamont__> mjg59_: they?
[06:44] <mjg59_> lamont__: The disk images
[06:44] <lamont__> no.  can you boot a CD at all?
[06:44] <mjg59_> carstenh: Well, yeah, I know how I /can/ do it, I was wondering if there was actually a mechanism provided :)
[06:44] <mjg59_> lamont__: Nope
[06:44] <Kamion> no supported method
[06:44] <lamont__> PXE boot?
[06:44] <mjg59_> isolinux chokes and dies
[06:45] <mjg59_> No built-in networking
[06:45] <Kamion> there's some random untested stuff in tools/ IIRC
[06:45] <lamont__> mjg59_: there's always that ultimate fallback of "install the hard drive in a usable computer and do the install there"
[06:45] <carstenh> put the hd in a pc with cd-rom?
[06:45] <Kamion> oh, no, we took that out 'cos it was random and untested
[06:46] <lamont__> mjg59_: I was starting from the expectation that _you_ were doing this...  for joe-random-user, uh... scary
[06:46] <mjg59_> lamont__: Oh, yeah, I'm doing it
[06:46] <mjg59_> Hmm
[06:47] <lamont__> debootstrap may be your friend... mjg59-the-human-installer
[06:47] <fabbione> ogra: /usr/bin
[06:47] <ogra> oki
[06:47] <fabbione> AHHH
[06:47] <fabbione> here is the issue..
[06:47] <lamont__> mjg59_: you could clone the existing root to the laptop-hardrive-in-a-USB-enclosuer...
[06:47] <fabbione> UNIXCONN and LOCACONN are not set...
[06:47] <fabbione> = unix: is not recognized..
[06:48] <ogra> fabbione, but my xauth in /usr/bin on the server is just working fine, i still run -34 there...
[06:48] <mjg59_> lamont__: Would require a USB enclosure :)
[06:48] <fabbione> ogra: mostlikely yes
[06:49] <lamont__> mjg59_: well, yes.
[06:49] <fabbione> but i think the breakage goes more deep down than just xauth
[06:49] <ogra> yep
[06:49] <mjg59_> Ouch!
[06:49] <mjg59_> This think is stupidly hot
[06:49] <lamont__> mjg59_: find a laptop that doesn't have the HD under the keyboard, k?
[06:49] <ogra> fabbione, since you are able to switch consoles on the thin client and i'm not, i would also suspect xkb ....
[06:50] <fabbione> ogra: xkb is doomed to another degree...
[06:50] <ogra> yep
[06:50] <fabbione> ogra: i will give you the fix for that in a second...
[06:50] <fabbione> i think libx$(something) is not exporting UNIXCONN and LOCALCONN to pkg-config stuff = xauth and others might be broken
[06:51] <fabbione> ogra: grap xkbutils from people.u.c if it's not in the archive yet
[06:51] <fabbione> ogra: and you need to add 2 symlinks...
[06:52] <fabbione> nah binaries are in the archive
[06:52] <fabbione> don't take mine
[06:52] <fabbione> ogra: first thing check that you have no /opt/ltsp/etc/lts.conf
[06:52] <fabbione> if you do be sure that the SCREEN_01=ldm and not startx
[06:53] <fabbione> (that hangs the keyboard for me)
[06:53] <ogra> i dont
[06:53] <fabbione> ok
[06:53] <ogra> its a fresh ltsp env in /opt
[06:53] <fabbione> ok
[06:54] <fabbione> install xkeyboard-config in the /opt/ltsp/$arch chroot
[06:54] <fabbione> (that's required to set the keyboard properly)
[06:54] <fabbione> edit /etc/init.d/ltsp-client-config (still in the chroot)
[06:55] <fabbione>       preseed xserver-xorg xserver-xorg/config/inputdevice/keyboard/rules "xfree86"
[06:55] <fabbione>       preseed xserver-xorg xserver-xorg/config/inputdevice/keyboard/layout "$XKBLAYOUT"
[06:55] <fabbione>       preseed xserver-xorg xserver-xorg/config/inputdevice/keyboard/model "$XKBMODEL"
[06:55] <fabbione> add the first line with preseeding "xfree86"
[06:55] <fabbione> the default is xorg but xkeyboard-config is missing some of the symlinks
[06:55] <fabbione> so revert to xfree86 (it's the same file... different name)
[06:55] <fabbione> still in the chroot...
[06:56] <fabbione> cd /usr/X11R6/lib/X11 && ln -sf /etc/X11/xkb
[06:57] <fabbione> cd /usr/lib/X11/locale && ln -sf lib/common
[06:57] <fabbione> that should make the keybaord working again
[06:57] <fabbione> (if i haven't forget any of the symlinks)
[06:58] <fabbione> doko: ping?
[07:00] <lamont__> fabbione: coolness
[07:00] <lamont__> that's on my list
[07:00] <Kamion> mdz: shouldn't ldm use subprocess' stdin=, stdout=, and stderr= keyword arguments rather than os.dup2?
[07:00] <fabbione> lamont__: let me give you a friendly hint.. wait for X to be fixed :P
[07:01] <lamont__> it's not on my list for before 15 aug or so
[07:01] <Kamion> mdz: I'm borrowing bits from ldm for oem-config, and when I did it your way stderr wasn't going anywhere; I straced and found that python was doing dup2(2,2)
[07:01] <fabbione> i guess i am done for today..
[07:02] <fabbione> tomorrow we will scratch everything and start again
[07:02] <fabbione> Kamion: btw.. did you check the initrd images?
[07:02] <Kamion> mdz: can I have a UVF exception for kbd-chooser 1.16? fixes FTBFS
[07:02] <Kamion> fabbione: for what?
[07:02] <fabbione> Kamion: are they ok or are they too big?
[07:02] <Kamion> oh
[07:02] <fabbione> Kamion: for the installer
[07:03] <Kamion> fabbione: powerpc netboot is too big, I think
[07:03] <Kamion> 802851 6216 -rw-rw-r--   1 katie    katie     6352893 Jul 22 18:18 installer-powerpc/20050317ubuntu11/images/powerpc/netboot/initrd.gz
[07:04] <Kamion> yaboot can't deal with >6MB
[07:04] <fabbione> humpf..
[07:04] <fabbione> that's like 6.05M
[07:04] <Kamion> hmm, but it was too big before as well
[07:04] <fabbione> Kamion: can you try to boot it?
[07:05] <fabbione> perhaps they fixed it
[07:05] <Kamion> not sure what was up there
[07:05] <Kamion> fabbione: yaboot hasn't changed since I last read the source
[07:06] <bddebian> Try grub2? :-)
[07:06] <Kamion> bddebian: I did, it doesn't work yet.
[07:06] <bddebian> Oh.  I'll kick Marco for you :-)
[07:06] <Kamion> I sent Jeff a bug report
[07:06] <Kamion> fabbione: all the initrds grew by about a megabyte
[07:06] <ogra_d> fabbione, now my nfs tiems out again :(
[07:06] <Kamion> except for powerpc netboot I think, which seems to have stayed about the same; I guess it was inefficient before
[07:07] <ogra_d> damned, it worked all day
[07:07] <fabbione> ogra_d: run tcpdump -i $interface on the one supposed to be the server..
[07:07] <Kamion> bddebian: even with that, grub2 is still a bit too raw and untried
[07:07] <fabbione> ogra_d: that's the workaround i used
[07:07] <Kamion> bddebian: I'd like to use it eventually, but I don't want to be hurried into it
[07:08] <bddebian> Kamion: True and it's so sad because Marco and Okuji (and others of course), have done some good stuff
[07:08] <ogra_d> fabbione, wow, coolness :) thanks !!!
[07:08] <Kamion> we'll probably want it for initramfs
[07:08] <ogra_d> now to see if X comes up
[07:08] <Kamion> bddebian: well, when one decides to rewrite a project from scratch, one can hardly be surprised when people are a bit conservative about switching over to it. :-)
[07:09] <fabbione> Kamion: yes i expected them to grow a bit...
[07:09] <bddebian> Kamion: Ay
[07:09] <bddebian> +e
[07:09] <fabbione> Kamion: but initramfs is not going to be any smaller...
[07:09] <Kamion> fabbione: initramfs was an unrelated side comment
[07:10] <fabbione> Kamion: yes.. i am thinking for the switch later ...
[07:10] <ogra_d> hmm, no X ... 
[07:10] <Kamion> joeyh seems to think it can be smaller for the installer actually, but I haven't worked out exactly what he's talking about yet
[07:10] <fabbione> initramfs has less control over the amount of modules you grab..
[07:11] <Kamion> isn't that only for init*-tools? there's no difference in that regard for d-i
[07:11] <Kamion> fabbione: 1MB is definitely well above the size increase I had hoped for
[07:11] <fabbione> Kamion: just one sec... can you give me some pure numbers?
[07:11] <seb128> gnome-screensaver rocks
[07:11] <fabbione> on what % did they increase+
[07:12] <fabbione> ?
[07:12] <seb128> the user switching is integrated to the lock screen
[07:12] <seb128> and it works fine
[07:12] <Kamion> 48169051 2684 -rw-rw-r--   1 katie    katie     2742339 Jul 20 10:49 installer-amd64/20050317ubuntu10/images/cdrom/initrd.gz
[07:12] <Kamion> 540738 3772 -rw-rw-r--   1 katie    katie     3858245 Jul 22 18:18 installer-amd64/20050317ubuntu11/images/cdrom/initrd.gz
[07:12] <Kamion> 43909126 3144 -rw-rw-r--   1 katie    katie     3211448 Jul 20 10:48 installer-i386/20050317ubuntu10/images/cdrom/initrd.gz
[07:12] <Kamion> 245790 3932 -rw-rw-r--   1 katie    katie     4019311 Jul 22 18:16 installer-i386/20050317ubuntu11/images/cdrom/initrd.gz
[07:12] <Lathiat> seb128: nice
[07:12] <Kamion> 48381985 3356 -rw-rw-r--   1 katie    katie     3429967 Jul 20 10:50 installer-powerpc/20050317ubuntu10/images/powerpc/cdrom/initrd.gz
[07:12] <Kamion> 1179777 4624 -rw-rw-r--   1 katie    katie     4722225 Jul 22 18:17 installer-powerpc/20050317ubuntu11/images/powerpc/cdrom/initrd.gz
[07:13] <Kamion> fabbione: I cannot give you a single number across the board; it varies by architecture and media type
[07:13] <fabbione> Kamion: yup.. i can see.. we are between 25% and 50%
[07:13] <fabbione> way too much
[07:14] <fabbione> i guess we will have to split some modules out again...
[07:14] <ogra_d> seb128, so you mean i can drop the work i did for xscreensaver ?
[07:14] <seb128> dunno what you did
[07:14] <seb128> but gnome-screensaver is pretty
[07:14] <seb128> it lists users
[07:14] <ogra_d> seb128, i spent about 4 days to write a new lock screen 
[07:15] <seb128> you just have to pick one, it switches to the opened session on the unlock dialog
[07:15] <seb128> or open a new gdm login screen if the user is not logged
[07:15] <ogra_d> seb128, http://www.grawert.net/xss_mockup.png
[07:15] <ogra_d> seb128, with gdmflexiserver integration... like mpt designed it
[07:15] <seb128> grumpf
[07:16] <ogra_d> we designed it in udu
[07:16] <seb128> I would rather push gnome-screensaver ...
[07:16] <ogra_d> it didnt work on my amd64 alst time i tried... i'll try again... but loosing this work is sad... its my absoluetly favoirite project :(
[07:17] <seb128> duplicating efforts is not nice neither
[07:17] <ogra_d> and only needs some code cleanup
[07:17] <mdz> Kamion: re: kbd-chooser, yes
[07:17] <ogra_d> seb128, while we were at udu and while talking with vuntz at guadec i was told by all of you that gnome-screensaver isnt feasable
[07:18] <ogra_d> because not mature enough
[07:18] <Kamion> mdz: thanks
[07:18] <ogra_d> seb128, but i agree that gnome-scrennsaver is the way to go... sadly :'((((
[07:18] <seb128> hum, are you sure I said something about that? I didn't use gnome-screensaver before guadec
[07:19] <mdz> lamont__: binNMUs == evil
[07:19] <seb128> I just say that today version kicks asses
[07:19] <seb128> the gtk dialog are really nice
[07:19] <seb128> it lists users
[07:19] <ogra_d> seb128, when we sat together with jdub, vuntz and davyd
[07:19] <seb128> allow to switch between opened sessions, etc
[07:19] <mdz> Kamion: I think it was using dup2 because it was using fork before moving to subprocess
[07:19] <ogra_d> yes v:8
[07:19] <ogra_d> :(
[07:20] <seb128> not sure if we should consider it for 5.10 though
[07:20] <seb128> mdz: any opinion on that?
[07:20] <mdz> Kamion: changesets welcome; my development environment is sort of hopelessly broken until this evening
[07:20] <lamont__> mdz: yeah, was pretty much a given
[07:20] <ogra_d> seb128, if its stable and secure we should... 
[07:21] <ogra_d> seb128, dont worry about my frustration... i was prepared for my patch to disappear... just not this soon
[07:21] <mdz> seb128: gnome-screensaver vs. xscreensaver?
[07:21] <lamont__> elmo: ping
[07:21] <ogra_d> mdz, yes
[07:21] <seb128> mdz: yep
[07:21] <mdz> I haven't looked at gnome-screensaver at all
[07:21] <mdz> what are the tradeoffs?
[07:21] <ogra_d> mdz, its integrated
[07:21] <seb128> gnome-screensaver has user switching integration now
[07:22] <seb128> lock screen list users, and allow to pick one
[07:22] <seb128> you are send to the "unlock" dialog for this user if he has a session running
[07:22] <seb128> or on gdm login if he hasn't
[07:22] <seb128> it speaks with dbus
[07:22] <seb128> uses gconf
[07:22] <ogra_d> mdz, we just said its not mature enough, last time we met in person... thus i wrote a new xcreensaver patch :8 but seb is right to promote it
[07:22] <mdz> sounds nice.  what's the downside?
[07:23] <seb128> lack some user feedbacks, it's quite young
[07:23] <seb128> but works fine here ...
[07:23] <seb128> out of the no real issue
[07:23] <ogra_d> mdz, for me, only that my favorite pet project has to die... and i cant rant about jwz anymore :(
[07:23] <mdz> ogra_d: jwz will always give you more reasons to rant
[07:23] <ogra_d> hehe
[07:23] <mdz> sounds like we should give gnome-screensaver a try
[07:23] <ogra_d> yep
[07:25] <ogra_d> mdz, what was the default user for the ltsp client ? 
[07:25] <seb128> mdz: I'll mail the list this week to get user feedback on it
[07:25] <mdz> ogra_d: there is no default user; one must be entered into the ldm dialog
[07:25] <mdz> seb128: ok
[07:26] <ogra_d> mdz, heh, thats hard with only console login :)
[07:26] <seb128> just need to sort what to do with screensavers list before, gnome-screensaver can use xscreensaver's one, but doesn't use the same folder by default
[07:26] <mdz> ogra_d: the console is secure by default
[07:26] <mdz> ogra_d: if you need console access, either a) set a root password, or b) add a 'shell' screen to lts.conf
[07:26] <\sh> hmm...libdebtags > 1.0.3 .. can we break UVF for it and getting it from debian?
[07:26] <Kamion> mdz: ok ... I'll have to get to a point where I can test ltsp first
[07:26] <bddebian> \sh: libdebtags1 :-)
[07:27] <mdz> Kamion: likewise, only s/get to/get back to/
[07:27] <ogra_d> mdz, i dont need it... i'll try to get X running... 
[07:27] <\sh> bddebian: it will get libdebtags1c2
[07:27] <ogra_d> Kamion, wait for X to be ready, its a PTIA to get it working currently
[07:29] <ogra_d> Kamion, yes, but concentrate on X rather then fiddlig with single binarys in the ltsp chroot :)
[07:29] <elmo> lamont__: ?
[07:30] <lamont__> elmo: was going to have you nuke something, but then my test finished... nuking won't help
[07:41] <seb128> hum, dinner time
[07:41] <venda> hi, I am here on behalf of {Seb} who it seems has been banned from this channel for a reason unknown to him. Could anyone tell me why he was banned?
[07:43] <mdz> venda: fabbione
[07:44] <venda> mdz: venda == froud, hi
[07:44] <mdz> hi
[07:44] <venda> mdz: fabbione has the reason?
[07:44] <venda> {Seb} is asking why he was banned on #ubuntu-doc 
[07:44] <mdz> venda: presumably; he set th eban
[07:45] <venda> fabbione: ping
[07:45] <Treenaks> venda: see pm
[07:45] <mdz> doesn't the IRC server tell someone who banned them when they are banned?
[07:45] <mdz> presumably he is capable of asking fabbione himself
[07:46] <venda> Treenaks: thanks
[07:46] <venda> mdz: no it doesn't it just says you're banned :-) OK Treenaks has given the answer. Later
[08:23] <ogra_d> mdz, got a running ldm now, but it doesnt let me in.... i give up for today... am i right that the part you need beautified is /usr/lib/ltsp/greeters/gtk ?
[08:23] <mdz> ogra_d: yes, that's it
[08:23] <mdz> I would be happy if it were centered on the screen, and the text entry boxes focused without moving the mouse :-)
[08:23] <ogra_d> oki... so i'll move my xscreensaver motivation over to this one :)
[08:24] <Kamion> mm, I will need beautification on oem-config in a week or two's time, probably ...
[08:24] <ogra_d> probably a default theme would also be an option...
[08:25] <ogra_d> Kamion, since you just stle from ldm you'll be able to do it again ;)
[08:25] <Kamion> true
[08:25] <Kamion> well, I don't use anything like the greeter in ltsp
[08:25] <ogra_d> is there a baz archive for oem-config ?
[08:26] <ogra_d> or a source package or something ?
[08:26] <Kamion> colin.watson@canonical.com--2005/oem-config--mainline--0
[08:27] <Kamion> (http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/archives/colin.watson@canonical.com--2005)
[08:28] <ogra_d> oki, i'll check it out... is this affected by feature freeze (i.e. has it a near deadline ?)
[08:29] <Kamion> it's a feature freeze item, yes
[08:29] <ogra_d> ok
[08:29] <Kamion> not all the UI is ready for review yet though, which is why I suggested a week or two's time; it would probably be more productive then
[08:30] <ogra_d> Kamion, isnt two weeks == feature freeze ??
[08:30] <Kamion> yes well *cough*
[08:30] <Kamion> user interface freeze is two weeks after FF
[08:31] <ogra_d> heh, ok
[08:31] <ogra_d> ah, yes... four weeks from now
[08:36] <[SemTeX] > als ik een dir fotos op dvd fik, neemt die dan de thumbs mee of niet?
[08:36] <[SemTeX] > sorry, wrong chan :)
[08:38] <carstenh> jbailey: did you already think about the policy and configurations-changes?
[08:40] <Kamion> ogra_d: how does one set a default theme?
[08:40] <ogra> hmm, i have to look it up, but i did it in the hwdb.client... you can force gtkrc values
[08:42] <Kamion> <cjwatson@cairhien ~/src/ubuntu/hwdb-client/hwdb-client-0.6>$ grep -ir gtkrc .
[08:42] <Kamion> <cjwatson@cairhien ~/src/ubuntu/hwdb-client/hwdb-client-0.6>$
[08:42] <Kamion> hmm
[08:42] <ogra> from gtk import RcStyle
[08:42] <ogra> from gtk import Settings
[08:42] <Kamion> aha
[08:42] <Kamion> thanks
[08:42] <ogra> gtk.rc_parse_string('gtk_font_name = "Sans 8"')
[08:42] <ogra> sets a default font and overrides the actual theme 
[08:43] <ogra> should also be possible for widget theme settings
[08:46] <lamont__> jbailey: looks like klibc needs to be reved to match the current linux-headers-2.6.12 abinumber
[08:48] <jbailey> lamont__: Thanks.
[08:48] <Kamion> ah, gtk-theme-name and gtk-font-name properties
[08:50] <carstenh> jbailey: a simple "no" would suffice a answer
[08:50] <carstenh> s/a/as/
[08:50] <jbailey> carstenh: Eh?
[08:50] <jbailey> carstenh: Oh, sorry, had missed the nick highlight.
[08:50] <carstenh> 20:38:24 < carstenh> jbailey: did you already think about the policy and 
[08:50] <carstenh>                      configurations-changes?
[08:51] <carstenh> no problem
[08:51] <mdz> carstenh: this channel is busy and we all miss messages sometimes; it's nothing personal
[08:51] <carstenh> mdz: ok
[08:52] <jbailey> carstenh: No, I haven't, sorry.  
[08:52] <carstenh> jbailey: ok, then we will talk about it later :)
[08:52] <jbailey> carstenh: Thanks, sorry, a bit swamped on the first day back.
[08:53] <mdz> has someone uploaded xauth with better build-deps already?
[08:54] <ogra> mdz, fabbione has a single xauth binary compiled against recent X on p.u.c but there is no new package yet
[08:55] <mdz> ok, I'll have a look
[08:55] <ogra> seb128, didnt you say you wanted to make gnome-screensaver conflict with xscreensaver ? i can still install both
[08:55] <mdz> of course, I can't upload anything for at least another 4 hours
[08:56] <jbailey> seb128: Disabling cairo on ppc *does* fix the problem.
[08:56] <jbailey> seb128: Strange that it doesn't show up in the built-tests.
[08:57] <seb128> ogra: no, I don't want too, the screensavers are here
[08:57] <seb128> jbailey: yeah, according to upstream evince doesn't use the same API set
[08:58] <ogra> seb128, xscreensaver stops working if gnome-screensaver is installed
[08:58] <jbailey> seb128: Ah, one of those overtesting applications... ;)
[08:58] <seb128> jbailey: k, so the bug is with the cairo part and we can roll back on splash if required
[08:58] <Kamion> oh, it's probably not a default theme I need, it's a window manager
[08:58] <seb128> ogra: don't install gnome-screensaver if you intend to use xscreensaver
[08:58] <ogra> seb128, ha ha
[08:59] <seb128> or split xscreensaver
[08:59] <ogra> seb128, and obviously gnome-screensaver doesnt work for me
[08:59] <seb128> to make a package with the screensavers and one with the binary
[08:59] <seb128> what version and what doesn't work?
[08:59] <ogra> i get a flickering mouse cursor on black screen and cant unlock or do anything
[08:59] <Kamion> ah, yes, much better once I start metacity first
[08:59] <seb128> that's a 0.0.7 bug fixed with 0.0.8
[09:00] <seb128> are you sure you have 0.0.8 ?
[09:00] <ogra> the current version, i installed it a minute ago
[09:00] <seb128> yeah, I've uploaded 0.0.8 1 hour ago
[09:00] <seb128> maybe it FTBFS or has not built yet
[09:00] <seb128> dpkg -l it
[09:00] <ogra> yep 0.0.7
[09:00] <ogra> hmpf
[09:00] <seb128> k, wait for 0.0.8
[09:00] <seb128> it has built
[09:01] <ogra> ... updating ....
[09:02] <tseng> anyone want to test beagl
[09:02] <tseng> ee
[09:02] <ogra> phew
[09:02] <ogra> ** (gnome-screensaver-dialog:8085): WARNING **: Screen locking disabled: error getting password
[09:02] <ogra> (gnome-screensaver:8077): GLib-CRITICAL **: g_hash_table_destroy: assertion `hash_table != NULL' failed
[09:02] <Treenaks> tseng: with Office file support?
[09:02] <Treenaks> tseng: ;)
[09:03] <tseng> Treenaks: no?
[09:03] <Treenaks> tseng: why not?
[09:03] <tseng> because i didnt add it
[09:03] <Treenaks> tseng: hm, good point :)
[09:03] <tseng> gsf-sharp is using the old mono policy
[09:03] <tseng> i have not updated it
[09:03] <Treenaks> tseng: does gsf-sharp do Word docs as well?
[09:03] <ogra> seb128, it crashes reproducable
[09:03] <Treenaks> tseng: anyway.. where do I get the packages?
[09:03] <seb128> amd64?
[09:03] <tseng> Treenaks: i thought it used libwv1 for that
[09:04] <ogra> seb128, yep
[09:04] <tseng> Treenaks: its in the archive
[09:04] <Treenaks> tseng: (and will you eventually port it to the new policy?)
[09:04] <tseng> Treenaks: but you need to build latest evolution-sharp from apt-source
[09:04] <seb128> can you open a bug on bugzilla.gnome.org?
[09:04] <ogra> seb128, but i doubt its arch specific... 
[09:04] <tseng> Treenaks: because buildd ate it
[09:04] <seb128> upstream is quick to reply
[09:04] <seb128> ogra: it works fine here
[09:04] <ogra> ** (process:8118): WARNING **: Couldn't get password of "ogra"
[09:04] <pitti> yay, network back
[09:04] <seb128> wb pitti :)
[09:04] <tseng> pitti: wb :)
[09:04] <marcin> jbailey, there is another thing I would like to talk about later - Java
[09:04] <HiddenWolf> ogra. show it to him!
[09:05] <jbailey> marcin: Cool.  Do you mind doing that on #ubuntu-java so that others interested and see it easily around the noise of this channel?
[09:05] <seb128> ogra: have you restarted the daemon after the upgrade?
[09:05] <marcin> jbailey, sure I didn't know about such channel
[09:05] <marcin> jbailey, joining
[09:06] <ogra> seb128, es i run it from a terminal manually to see the errors immediately
[09:06] <ogra> s/es/yes
[09:06] <seb128> ogra: cat /etc/pam.d/gnome-screensaver ?
[09:07] <ogra> @include common-auth
[09:07] <seb128> ogra: and no other error?
[09:07] <ogra> ** (gnome-screensaver-dialog:8258): WARNING **: Screen locking disabled: error getting password
[09:08] <ogra> thats all
[09:08] <ogra> only these two lines
[09:08] <seb128> ogra: the sources have a test-passwd binary, can you open a bug upstream with a copy of what it says?
[09:08] <ogra> yep
[09:12] <ogra> seb128, is it enough if i run it in the source tree after compiling ? 
[09:12] <seb128> yeah
[09:12] <ogra> seb128, seems t work finte with this tool
[09:13] <ogra> fnie even
[09:13] <ogra> ergh
[09:13] <ogra> fine :)
[09:13] <seb128> usually upstream reply to such errors according to bugzilla is that you don't have the privilege required
[09:13] <seb128> but with the pam file that works fine here
[09:13] <seb128> any just fill the bug, he bet you'll get a quick reply
[09:14] <ogra> i think i'll restart my session first any try again....
[09:17] <ogra> hmm, no difference, except that all my fonts are a point smaller suddenly... strange...
[09:18] <carstenh> jbailey: JYFI: I started to create a glade-file for the firewall-gui, here is a screenshot: www.fh-trier.de/~heyc/fwgui.jpg
[09:18] <HiddenWolf> who is thunderbird's maintainer?
[09:18] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: apt-cache show tells
[09:19] <jbailey> carstenh: Cools.  What's "sharing"?
[09:19] <carstenh> jbailey: internet connection sharing
[09:19] <carstenh> jbailey: a bit to long to write it in a tab
[09:20] <carstenh> jbailey: do you have a better name? :)
[09:20] <carstenh> jbailey: properties is something like: repond to ping or logging
[09:21] <carstenh> or better: will be
[09:22] <jbailey> carstenh: Ah, right.  No, sharing's probably enough.
[09:23] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks: it shows the debian maintainer only
[09:25] <ogra> seb128, i think i'll wait with the bugreport there are other weird things going on here since i installed gnome-screensaver... my fonts are nearly unreadable tiny... (i guess its a cairo issue which got upgraded for gnome-screensaver)... and i dont want to upgrade X now...
[09:26] <ogra> ergh and firefox stopped working... 
[09:27] <ogra> pitti,  what was the fix for the hangman effect in firefox ? 
[09:27] <pitti> ogra: just install firefox, not mozilla-firefox
[09:27] <ogra> pitti, i have firefox installed since weeks
[09:27] <ogra> (not mozilla fiefox)
[09:28] <pitti> hm, still m-f should disappear from breezy entirely to lower confusion
[09:28] <pitti> ogra: with firefox it just works for me
[09:28] <ogra> pitti, not up to date here... upgrading
[09:28] <pitti> ogra: I am (although with broken keyboard, but that works as long as I only type English text)
[09:29] <ogra> pitti, i refuse to upgrade any X stuff until i hear its fixed
[09:29] <Burgundavia> seb128, I am going to close that Spatial Breaks Usability bug, that ok with you?
[09:29] <pitti> ogra: right now I'm usually running m-firefox in a hoary dchroot for testing :-)
[09:30] <ogra> ahh, tiny fonts... but fonts at least
[09:31] <pitti> PHEAR
[09:31] <ogra> heh
[09:33] <pitti> I'm not feeling good about breaking our backport policy, but ffox is already broken, can't possibly get worse anyway
[09:33] <\sh> pitti: w8 until tomorrow..I'm pushing the queues ,-)
[09:34] <pitti> shackan: I can't answer you directly (no backslash, aargh), but I WANT MY BUILDD! :-)
[09:34] <ogra> meh 
[09:34] <pitti> ^ sh
[09:34] <pitti> shackan: sorry, that wasn't for you
[09:34] <ogra> i can either select huge fonts (9+) or unreadable tiny ones (8)
[09:34] <Burgundavia> seb128, never mind
[09:35] <ogra> pitti, same to you...
[09:35] <\sh> pitti: hehe :)
[09:35] <ogra> :)
[09:35] <ogra> (mehwant for you)
[09:35] <ogra> wasnt
[09:35] <seb128_> if somebody said something for me repeat
[09:35] <\sh> pitti: xmodmap + xkeykap ,-)
[09:35] <seb128_> Burgundavia: what?
[09:35] <pitti> backslashsh: easy recipes appreciated
[09:36] <Burgundavia> seb128, I asked if I could close that nautilus spatial bug I opened, but you already closed it
[09:36] <ogra> seb128_, why are my fonts so freaky since gnome-screensaver pulled in cairo ?
[09:36] <pitti> seb128: oh, do we have the old behavior now, or did you close it because it ain't going to change anyway?
[09:37] <seb128_> ogra: dunno, you are the first to have an issue
[09:37] <seb128_> ogra: it ignores the DPI setting
[09:37] <ogra> seb128_, oh
[09:37] <Burgundavia> pitti, we have changed to the broswer mode, with path bar and places side bar
[09:37] <pitti> really? cool
[09:37] <seb128_> Burgundavia: k, right
[09:37] <\sh> pitti: xmodmap from -36 + xkeycaps...
[09:37] <seb128_> pitti: yeah
[09:38] <\sh> xkeycaps -> pc105 keyboard and put \ []  {} on the umlaut keys save it as .xmodmap in your home and xmodmap /home/pitti/.xmodmap
[09:38] <\sh> there u r
[09:38] <pitti> thx
[09:40] <ogra> i want my beautiful fonts back ! cry ...
[09:42] <ogra> ahh... 8.5 pt looks like 8 looked before :)
[09:42] <tseng> ogra: it doesnt respect DPI
[09:42] <tseng> ogra: there is a bug
[09:43] <ogra> tseng, yes... but for now i'm fine with a workaround... as long as my eyes dont hurt i'm fine
[09:43] <tseng> haha
[09:46] <ogra> seb128, what about notification-daemon and libnotify ? 
[09:47] <ogra> seb128, i will package the latest gnome-power this week, it uses them....
[09:48] <seb128> I've pinged the libnotify guy on IRC like 1 hour ago
[09:48] <ogra> (upstream made a lot changes for us in gnome-power to make it easier to integrate it in ubuntu)
[09:48] <seb128> he's quite busy
[09:48] <ogra> hmm
[09:48] <seb128> he'll try to roll a libnotify tarball this week
[09:48] <ogra> ok
[09:51] <\sh> hmmm
[09:51] <\sh> libxaw8 is missing while xorg trans?
[09:55] <pvanhoof> when is the kernel upgrade to 2.6.13 for breezy planned?
[09:55] <pvanhoof> thread tracing seems broking in the current 2.6.12-4 one, therefore UML ain't working
[09:55] <pvanhoof> s/broking/broken
[09:55] <AndyR> lo all
[09:55] <AndyR> is anyone working on gaimvv packaging?
[10:05] <ogra> seb128, since when do the scrollbar arrows have sound events ? 
[10:05] <ogra> thats a bit annoying... 
[10:05] <pitti> ogra: accessibility spec, you don't need to look at the screen at all any more :-)
[10:06] <ogra> pitti, hmmm apparently also the scrollbar itself makes *plop* if i grab it :/
[10:07] <ogra> thats sooo KDE *shudder*
[10:09] <ogra> seb128, gnome-screensaver works if locally compiled... so its not a bug, only inconsistency of my outdated system... but i'm not at all convinced by the lockscree ... could we disable the timer ? 
[10:09] <seb128> sure we could
[10:09] <ogra> great :)
[10:09] <seb128> better to bug upstream about that though rather than forking
[10:10] <ogra> yep
[10:10] <ogra> i'll do
[10:10] <lamont__> ah, iz pitti!
[10:10] <\sh> ogra: tsts
[10:11] <ogra> seb128, we should put a review on mpt's todo list ;)
[10:11] <Riddell> ogra: huh?
[10:11] <ogra> Riddell, yes ?
[10:11] <ogra> ahh... heh
[10:12] <ogra> Riddell, putting sound events on every move you make is a typical KDE thing... that makes up the cluttered feeling i have using KDE
[10:13] <ogra> s/that/one of the things/
[10:13] <pitti> elmo: could you remove mozilla-firefox from breezy? it causes some confusion and we should generally use firefox
[10:14] <AndyR> im interested in packaging gaimvv is there anywhere i should post my intentions to save duplication of work?
[10:14] <ogra> Riddell, personal thing... nothing against KDE *g*
[10:28] <\sh> ok...
[10:29] <\sh> no objections if I go to bed? ,-)
[10:29] <pitti> good night!
[10:29] <\sh> pitti: the buildd are yours :)
[10:30] <pitti> great work, Stefan
[10:30] <\sh> pitti: only jobs to be done...
[10:31] <\sh> ok...off to bed...night guys..
[11:29] <Mez> hows the auto-test for breezy going
[11:31] <sivang> Mez: what sort of auto-test infra is there? 
[11:32] <Mez> sivang, no idea :D I just know it was delaying backports :P
[11:33] <sivang> Mez: hehe, good night btw
[11:35] <Mez> night sivang 
[11:35] <Mez> mdz: ping
[11:48] <mdz> Mez: yes?
[11:48] <Mez> just to let you know, John and I have agreed that I should be the SPOC for backports
[11:49] <sivang> Mez: what's a SPOC ?
[11:49] <\sh> Single Point Of Contact
[11:49] <\sh> sorry..can't sleep...need food ,-)
[11:50] <sivang> \sh: thanks :)
[11:50] <sivang> \sh: go get some sushi, it alwasy helps
[11:50] <\sh> uhhh..raw fish...no ways
[11:50] <Mez> what \sh said
[11:51] <\sh> I'm not eat fish even in cooked state
[11:51] <\sh> or fried
[11:52] <sivang> \sh: ah then sorry, what's your fancy?
[11:52] <\sh> dead cows ,-)
[11:52] <\sh> no joke...a good steak or tasty vegetables
[11:54] <sivang> \sh: cool :)
[11:55] <sivang> \sh: steaks are fine, as long it's not too fat
[11:57] <\sh> sivang: no...nice filet steaks from corn-fed cows :) actually I like the taste of ZA cows...really.here in germany u won't taste the corn.
[11:57] <Burgundavia> sivang, \sh, please go and eat somewhere else
[11:57] <sivang> Burgundavia: hehehe
[11:58] <sivang> Burgundavia: that was hilaroius, albeit in place, remakr :)
[11:58] <Burgundavia> it is not only off topic, you are also making me hungry
[11:58] <\sh> hahaha
[11:59] <\sh> sh+***
[11:59] <\sh> i just blown away some glowing ashes from my cigarette..somewhere..I don't find it
[11:59] <sivang> Burgundavia: I always you deep inside you lies a true comedian :)
[12:00] <\sh> so I'm waiting until it's burning *holycow*
[12:02] <mdz> Mez: ok, sounds good
[12:02] <mdz> Mez: do you have a wiki page set up?
[12:02] <Mez> for the old one :D yes
[12:02] <Mez> for the new one no
[12:02] <Mez> cause we dont know how the new stuff is going
[12:02] <sivang> hmm, mine was just automatically moved I think
[12:02] <Mez> I'm just like - registering stuff in launchpad for bugs and stuff
[12:02] <sivang> Mez: wasn't yours?
[12:03] <Mez> sivang wasnt my what ?
[12:03] <Mez> oh
[12:03] <Mez> no I'm on about old backports
[12:03] <Mez> "unofficial"
[12:03] <Mez> vs "official
[12:03] <sivang> eh
[12:03] <Mez> 2