/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/08/01/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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poningruwhos incharge of ubotu ?01:53
rob^I forget01:53
poningrucause its locked01:53
rob^I just made a change to it01:53
poningruoh01:53
poningruis it the dualboot?01:54
poningruanyway it worked thanks01:54
rob^some people added some inapproprate things to it a while back, they may have some sought of acl on it now I'm not sure01:54
rob^yeah, I added dualboot for you01:54
HrdwrBoBsort not sought :)01:54
rob^yeah, yeah..01:54
rob^I'm sick with the flu, leave me alone :P01:55
poningruhehe we forgive you01:55
Burgundaviarwabel, from what I understand, backports staging can also go away02:53
Burgundaviabackports is now just like universe and multiverse02:53
Burgundaviawhat language was this? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats?action=diff02:58
HrdwrBoBspanish03:22
HrdwrBoBlooks like03:22
Burgundaviasure it is not portugese?03:22
HrdwrBoBnope03:24
Burgundaviaok03:24
Burgundaviawell the old revisions are in the wiki03:24
Burgundaviawe can pull out when we find out03:24
=== rob^ pokes head in
BurgundaviaKassim <-- this is the guy that has been translating pages in place03:24
Burgundaviaplease revert if you see him03:24
rob^ah03:25
rob^what a pain03:25
Burgundaviawell the copies are stored, so when we figure out what language, it will be trivial to copy them to a new page03:25
HrdwrBoBany way of contacting him etc?03:25
Burgundaviathe work is not lose03:25
Burgundavianot easily03:25
Burgundaviamediawiki has a user talk page, and tells you when someone edits it03:25
Burgundaviamoin does not03:26
HrdwrBoBah, I thought it was missing a few features03:26
Burgundaviamoin is much nicer in terms of thoughput03:26
Burgundaviait has manage 10x the number of hits as mediawiki03:26
Burgundaviabut mediawiki has some useful features for larger groups of people and communication only on the wiki03:27
Burgundaviathe wiki mark in media is also more sane and has more features03:28
Burgundaviafor better presentation docs03:28
rwabelburgundavia: thanks for the answer03:30
Burgundaviarwabel, np03:31
rwabelburgundavia: the page is in portugese, even though I don't speak that language03:32
Burgundaviarwabel, would you mind moving his translations from the history of the following pages?03:33
Burgundaviahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallUbuntuOnLowMemorySystems03:33
Burgundaviahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats03:33
BurgundaviaI have to be somewhere in 30 minutes03:33
rwabelhow do I move history?03:33
Burgundaviajust PortugesePageName is fine now03:33
Burgundaviajust copy paset from the history03:33
rwabelonly english part03:34
Burgundaviaclick on getinfo03:35
Burgundaviaand then view the edit by Kassim03:35
Burgundaviacopy that03:35
rwabelok I found it03:37
rwabeland copy where in the RestrictedFormats?03:37
rwabelit's a complet different subject?!03:37
Burgundaviais it?03:37
Burgundaviaanyway, I have run03:37
HrdwrBoBwtf is he doing03:38
Burgundaviaif you get stuck, email the list03:38
HrdwrBoBwhy translate things in place03:38
rwabelI'm now a bit confused where to put that....it's complet different stuff03:38
rob^when the faq guide was ported into svn, was it done under both licences or just one?03:38
Burgundaviarob^, gpl, gfdl and cc-by-sa 2.003:38
Burgundaviarob^, ours and his03:38
rob^all three?03:38
rob^hmm03:39
Burgundaviait is a deriv of his work, which is gpl03:39
Burgundaviaand thus must be gpl03:39
rob^yeah03:39
Burgundaviahe agreed to relicense under our licenses03:39
Burgundaviawhich makes it tri-licensed03:39
rob^super..03:39
rwabelburgundavia: I better don't move the things, I don't wanna mess sth up....03:40
Burgundaviaok, email the list about it then03:40
rob^I thought the gpl is a software licence03:40
Burgundaviarob^, it is a license03:40
rob^the gfdl is the documentation one03:40
Burgundaviait can applied ot anything, but it is meant for software03:40
rob^yeah.03:40
rwabelburgundavia: email what to whom?03:41
Burgundaviagfdl and cc-by-ca 2.0 are DFSG-non-fre03:41
Burgundaviarwabel, email the ubuntu-doc list about those docs03:41
rwabelburgundavia: sorry, I've no idea about these docs, what should I email..I mean what's the problem or what is not ok..what should be done.03:42
rwabelnight03:58
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Burgundaviarob^, the gpl is also locally on all Ubuntu systems08:58
Burgundavia/usr/share/licenses or something similar08:58
rob^yeah08:58
Burgundaviayou can just point them at that08:58
rob^its only an entity link anyway08:58
rob^in the doc08:58
rob^we could just change the entity to point to that instead08:59
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jsgotangcorob^, nice on YelpMain but you'll have to contend with scrollkeeper for that as well editing the toc.xml is quite easy but I think the plan for Breezy would be a separate document09:04
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poningruanyone know why the wiki is subdomained under ubuntu and not ubuntulinux?09:05
jsgotangcobut if you just want to put these documents in Yelp status quo, just adding a yelp chunk on the final xml would work09:05
HrdwrBoBponingru: it's both09:05
jsgotangcoponingru, its the same thing09:05
rob^jsgotangco, say again?09:05
rob^jsgotangco, I was going to suggest it at the meeting as an alternative09:06
rob^jsgotangco, I'll edit the toc.xml if needed09:06
rob^or whatever else is needed..09:06
=== rob^ is confused
jsgotangcorob^, coordinate with jdub about it09:07
poningruic09:07
jsgotangcorob^, all entries in yelp are catalogued by sk09:07
jsgotangco(currently)09:07
jsgotangcothat's why we have a lot of upstream docs in it at the moment09:08
rob^ok09:09
rob^are you talking about yelp in Breezy at the moment09:10
jsgotangcoHoary as well09:10
rob^the main page in hoary at the moment (as released) is kind of like my idea09:12
rob^we just need to expand it to cover all our docs09:12
jsgotangcoif the Yelp main page will be status quo, we'll just have to add an sk catalog file so that it'll be part of the front page 09:14
Burgundaviathe current main page is seriously non-functional09:14
Burgundaviawith no search, there is no reasonable way for anyone to find anything09:15
rob^Burgundavia, yes, it just needs love09:15
Burgundaviaand we can safely say that 95% of the questions will be about 10% of our material09:15
rob^search should be a yelp thing, not a page thing09:15
jsgotangcowell yes, is an upstream issue either way on the search thing...09:15
Burgundaviasearch is unlikely to happen in the breezy timeframe, from what I understand09:15
jsgotangcothat's why the workaround was to have a separate document on the yelp main page09:16
jsgotangcobut if thats not workable, we'll just have to contend with adding sk catalog files again09:16
jsgotangcoand edit toc.xml if needed09:16
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insanekanefroud_: are you there ?09:16
Burgundaviainsanekane, you speak portugese or spanish?09:17
insanekaneneither09:17
jsgotangcowe'll probably get colony 3 anytime this week...09:17
insanekaneBurgundavia: last night, my power went out ... thats why i left suddenly09:17
Burgundaviainsanekane, ah, poor man09:18
insanekaneBurgundavia: heavy rains in this area09:18
Burgundaviaouch09:18
rob^jsgotangco, where is toc.xml in svn?09:18
jsgotangcoits not part of our svn09:19
rob^in the distro09:19
rob^ok09:19
rob^I got it09:20
jsgotangco Meeting time (there is a reason I put this first, please leave it!)09:20
jsgotangco?09:20
jsgotangcoits in the agenda09:20
rob^yeah that was me09:20
jsgotangcowhat's the issue?09:20
jsgotangcowe rotate 14 and 2209:21
rob^1400z on Thursday is really bad09:21
Burgundaviait is shit for me as well09:22
rob^thats midnight my time, and I have to be up at 5am for work09:22
Burgundaviabut it does get me up early09:22
jsgotangcorob^, its morning for the canucks09:22
Burgundavia7am for me09:22
jsgotangco22 for me is 6am09:22
rob^we need to make it like friday instead09:22
rob^or at some other time09:22
poningruis this like a meeting or something I had a question about a wiki page09:23
poningrucan I butt in?09:23
Burgundaviameeting times suck for everybody at different times09:23
Burgundaviathat is why we rotate09:24
jsgotangcoponingru, sure ask away this is just informal talk09:24
rob^yeah I know they do09:24
poningruhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/WiFiHowto09:24
poningrudoesnt that look complete?09:24
rob^but even an hour earlier would be helpful09:24
poningrucan we take that off of the cleanup list09:24
Burgundaviaponingru, yes, but a little too wordy09:24
poningruok so you want it sweet and simplified?09:25
jsgotangcorob^, anything earlier than 14 would be asking too much for the people in NA09:25
poningruwill work on it then09:25
rob^man world wide meeting times suck09:25
Burgundaviayes they do09:25
Burgundaviathe technical board has fun09:25
Burgundaviaas mdz is in my timezone09:25
rob^a lot more members..09:25
poningruhehe yeah they are not so bad if most of the people are in the same hemisphere09:25
jsgotangcothe next CC meeting would suck as that would be at 4am09:25
Burgundaviaponingru, ideally, it should be do A because of B, then do C09:26
jsgotangcorob^, problem on our side is that our team is spread across atlantic and pacific :)09:26
=== rob^ is just on the wrong side of the world
Burgundaviawe have active teams members is -7, +1, 0 and whater the aussie/jstongco is09:27
rob^+1009:27
jsgotangcoyeah09:27
jsgotangcoim +809:27
jsgotangcoso a solution is that we all emigrate somewhere...09:28
rob^I dunno, but maybe something could be discussed was my objective for it09:28
jsgotangcorob^, sure we'll put it on discussion on the meeting09:28
insanekaneor perhaps some asynchronous mechanism, such as ... mailing list ? :)09:28
=== insanekane ducks
rob^grr why does yelp not like the yelp .xml files09:29
Burgundaviait doesn't like malformed xml09:29
rob^heh yeah09:29
=== Burgundavia is glad that HostingGeek has never found the time to grace our channel
jsgotangcolol09:31
jsgotangcodid he get banned again09:31
=== jsgotangco likes LocalHelp for lack of a search function...
Burgundaviano09:32
Burgundaviahe is being himself in #inkscape09:32
Burgundaviahe got banned from #openttd09:32
Burgundaviajsgotangco, you mean that you like local help if we don't get a search function?09:33
Burgundaviaponingru, the general rule I follow when I write a doc is after I am finished, look at each sentence and try to reduce the word count09:36
jsgotangcoBurgundavia, it can work if we are in that situation...09:37
Burgundaviajsgotangco, which I fear we may be in09:37
Burgundaviaagain...09:37
jsgotangcobut then even old Yelp in RHEL had an Index09:37
jsgotangcoi mean search-capable index09:38
Burgundaviarofl --> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=1958509:38
Burgundaviawindows user downloads a .deb and wonders what to do with it09:38
jsgotangcogreat09:38
jsgotangcohmmm freeciv2 already has an osx binary..09:41
Burgundaviayes09:41
jsgotangcohow good is open ttd09:41
Burgundaviathe original game plus some cool new features09:42
Burgundaviathey are working on new graphics (they currently need to old copyrighted ones)09:42
jsgotangcooh you mean the original game is already open?09:42
Burgundaviathey also ship a deb09:42
Burgundaviano09:42
Burgundaviathe original author of ttd reverse engineered ttd and rewrote it in C09:42
jsgotangcoisnt that sid meier09:43
jsgotangco?09:43
rob^jsgotangco, Burgundavia I just made an update to YelpMain.. bbs09:43
Burgundaviano09:43
Burgundaviais Chris Sawyer, of Roller coast tycoon09:43
jsgotangcooh right...christ sawyer09:43
jsgotangcowhat are the other cool oss games out there09:47
Burgundaviathere is a list on the forums, just a sec09:47
jsgotangcoyou mean they're already packaged for ubuntu?09:48
Burgundaviasome are09:48
jsgotangcomotu games :D09:48
Burgundaviabarrage is a fun little game09:48
BurgundaviaMOTUGames is mostly my idea09:48
jsgotangcoi would probably enjoy doing MOTUGames09:48
BurgundaviaI am waiting for unfrgivens intro developer docs09:48
Burgundaviaso I can start packaging09:49
Burgundaviahttp://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=515309:49
jsgotangcois openttd already in upstream?09:49
Burgundaviano09:50
Burgundaviaput the .debs that openttd themselves make install fine on hoary and breezy09:50
jsgotangcowith sound?09:50
Burgundaviayes09:51
Burgundaviayes dmix09:51
jsgotangconice09:51
Burgundaviabut dmix appears to have borked on me09:51
jsgotangcohmm let me try...09:52
jsgotangcoOpenTTD requires the original version of Transport Tycoon Deluxe data files in order to function. Please refer to the readme for more information.09:53
jsgotangcogyaahhh09:53
BurgundaviaI have them09:53
Burgundaviayou want me to mail them to you?09:53
jsgotangcohow big?09:53
Burgundavia5 mb09:54
jsgotangcogee fire away..its not that much09:54
Burgundaviasent09:55
poningrucan you mail it to me as well please?09:56
poningruponingru@gmail.com09:56
jsgotangcooh its mostly artwork stuff...09:56
Burgundaviaall artwork stuff09:57
Burgundaviaponingru, sent09:57
poningruthanks dude09:58
rob^ok back10:07
rob^my issue with localhelp, even though we don't have a search function, is that it becomes messy10:08
Burgundaviayes it does10:09
rob^it has pointers all over the place10:09
Burgundaviawe need to satisfy that 95%/10% divide10:09
rob^and we already have a list of whats in each doc in the toc10:09
Burgundaviawhich we currently do not do10:09
rob^ie, in the toc of each document10:09
Burgundaviaevery click that we require users to make has a "cost"10:09
rob^and 99.9% of people have read a book10:10
Burgundaviathe higher the cost, the more likely they are to give up10:10
rob^a toc shouldn't be unfamiliar with them either10:10
Burgundaviathe total "money" that people are usually willing to spend on help is about 1 or 2 clicks10:10
rob^I think it would cost more click using Localhelp10:10
rob^particularly if the info they were after isnt where they clicked10:11
Burgundaviafor some yes10:11
Burgundaviabut not for the majority10:11
rob^YelpMain also makes keeping it up to date much easier10:11
jsgotangcoBurgundavia, i got nasty libc6 dependency problems while installing openttd10:11
rob^LocalHelp is like having a whole new document] 10:11
Burgundaviajsgotangco, oh crap10:11
Burgundaviathey are built against sarge10:11
jsgotangcoBurgundavia, hehehe...long debate on this...10:12
jsgotangcorob^, the current plan is to have a new document on Yelp10:12
Burgundaviasometimes binary compatiblity is nice, for stable distros10:12
jsgotangcorob^, it was already discussed before by jdub and mpt10:12
rob^jsgotangco, yes, but it doesn't need to be so complicated10:12
jsgotangcorob^, we lack a search function :(10:13
rob^jsgotangco, but we still have table of contents10:13
Burgundaviawhen we get a search function, we can debate this again10:13
rob^in each doc, automatically updated as we work on it10:13
rob^a search function would be nice, but we don't have to have it10:14
jsgotangcoall help have search functions10:14
jsgotangcoexcept yelp at the moment10:14
rob^something like LocalHelp works for the wiki because there is no other way to show that kind of info10:14
rob^but not when each link has its own toc10:15
Burgundaviasay I am looking for one of the common 10 things10:15
rob^faq/quick guide10:15
jsgotangcorob^, but anything 2 levels deeper will make it tedious and overwhelming for some10:15
Burgundaviabut that requires a click10:16
rob^most likely you will know what your problem is ie. I want to install a music app10:16
Burgundaviano10:16
rob^how can the 10 most asked questions cover that?10:16
Burgundaviamostly you will no want you want to do10:16
Burgundavianot how to do it10:16
rob^jsgotangco, its not10:16
Burgundaviatask-based, not application-based10:16
jsgotangcorob^, if you notice GNOME is starting to get task-based even10:17
Burgundavialmao --> http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=9431810:17
rob^we shouldn't assume everyone who uses Ubunt is a compleat numbty10:17
rob^99% are not10:17
Burgundavia99% of the computer users in the world are10:17
rob^at least 99% can read a toc10:17
Burgundaviathat is the segment we are targeting10:18
jsgotangcoBurgundavia, did you get the email of David Ottina?10:18
Burgundaviabut why make it hard10:18
rob^our documents are books10:18
rob^they have toc10:18
Burgundaviajsgotangco, David Ottina?>10:18
rob^we should be using that10:18
jsgotangcoBurgundavia, i'll forward10:18
Burgundaviacheers10:18
rob^jsgotangco, look at System -> Preferences for example, that list is huge and hard to read10:18
Burgundaviayes, and the gnome people realize that10:19
Burgundaviathere is a wiki page about a rethink of that stuff10:19
rob^but thats what LocalHelp is10:19
jsgotangcothat's why gnome is beginning to be task-based10:19
Burgundaviano it isn't10:19
Burgundaviawe need about 7-10 items on the yelp main page10:20
Burgundaviathey can expand to 7 items each10:20
rob^Burgundavia, yes, in fact it is10:20
rob^and that makes it worse10:20
Burgundavianot if the headings are well designed10:20
=== jsgotangco gives up on the yelp discussion as it was already discussed a lot of times already
Burgundaviarather than argue about it10:20
Burgundavialets just fix LocalHelp10:20
rob^it takes me at least just six scrolls of the wheel mouse just to view it all10:21
rob^most people wont read past the first page or two10:21
rob^and just give up10:21
Burgundaviarob^, remember that the subsections will be hidden by default10:21
Burgundaviaand only open when they click10:21
jsgotangcothats why books arent really great for help in the first place10:21
rob^I'm not arguing, I want to fix LocalHelp, thats why I am speaking up10:22
Burgundaviaalso remeber that the text on the wiki is larger10:22
Burgundaviaand the spacing larger10:22
rob^a little, but its still long10:22
Burgundaviabut most of the subsections will not be open10:22
rob^and there is still a lot to be added to LocalHelp yet also10:22
Burgundaviaso you wil see 9 items10:23
rob^my way you would see about 510:23
rob^one for each doc10:23
rob^click on one, there is the toc for that doc10:23
BurgundaviaI think I can safely predict taht most people will simply click ont he faq guide10:24
Burgundaviaand those that don't will get confused10:24
rob^the faq guide is for quick answers to common questions10:24
rob^thats its purpose10:24
Burgundaviathen why make the extra click? if we already know what most people are going to ask10:25
rob^but by your reasoning, we should scrap everything and just have the faq guide10:25
Burgundavianot really10:25
BurgundaviaI want small bitsized docs10:25
Burgundavianot huge books10:25
Burgundaviathat are massivelly interlinked10:26
Burgundaviathink a well done wiki10:26
jsgotangcothere's a reason why Burgundavia wants to respec the curret quickguide as well10:27
jsgotangcoif LocalHelp is made possible10:27
jsgotangcoi'll brb10:28
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rob^dam irc client died on me10:32
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jsgotangcoBurgundavia: open ttd works great in osx though10:40
Burgundaviaah10:40
Burgundaviajsgotangco, have you sent that email on to me?11:07
jsgotangcooh right wait sorry about that11:12
mdkehey all11:12
mdkerob^, ping?11:12
jsgotangcohey mdke11:13
=== jsgotangco is reading about Rails
rob^mdke, pong11:13
rob^whats up?11:14
Burgundaviasalut mdke 11:14
mdkeyo11:14
mdkerob^, i noticed you changed the links to the faqguide on DocteamProjects, is something wrong with the hosting it has currently?11:14
rob^the previews arnt working11:15
mdkein what way?11:15
rob^ie, click on them, you get an error message11:15
jsgotangcoBurgundavia: sent11:16
Burgundaviajsgotangco, cheers11:16
rob^eg: 11:16
rob^Routing Error11:16
rob^Recognition failed for "/~ubuntu-doc/about-ubuntu/C/"11:16
mdkerob^, i see it, odd.11:16
rob^I didn't know if anyone was updating them11:16
mdkeyes i have been11:17
rob^so I have the latest copy of the faq guide on my web host11:17
mdkeok11:17
rob^but I can change the link back if you want11:17
Burgundaviajsgotangco, that is major cool stuff11:17
Burgundaviahave to parse it more later11:17
jsgotangcoBurgundavia: aye its a mouthful...i have to digest it further11:17
BurgundaviaI need to get to bed11:17
Burgundaviajob search calls tomorrow11:17
jsgotangcoheh good luck!11:17
Burgundaviaand faxing my laptop testing stuff!11:18
jsgotangcoBurgundavia: claire sent the wrong fax number11:18
Burgundaviayes, she emailed me the correct one11:18
jsgotangcoahh11:18
jsgotangcoi just scanned mine11:18
mdkerob^, i'll ping tseng to ask why the hosting isn't working. but the docteam linode is working already, we only need a domain name for it and then we can use that.11:18
rob^mdke, the way I have it is a bit of a fudge (it requires me building then uploading via ftp to my website)11:19
rob^cool11:19
rob^feel free to change them to it11:19
mdkedunno if its worth changing them already to the ip address of the server, or waiting for the domain11:19
rob^docteam.u.o?11:20
mdkecom11:20
rob^yeah that one?11:21
rob^ok11:21
mdkeyes11:21
rob^is it ok to have a link to the GPL (ie a ulink) or do I need to include it with the faq guide?11:24
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jsgotangcosee you guys later12:05
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mptCan yelp load stuff over http?03:09
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