=== rwabel [~rwabel@gw.ptr-80-238-205-70.customer.ch.netstream.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Mez [~Mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Mez [~Mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === karlheg [~karlheg@host-250-237.resnet.pdx.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:53] whos incharge of ubotu ? [01:53] I forget [01:53] cause its locked [01:53] I just made a change to it [01:53] oh [01:54] is it the dualboot? [01:54] anyway it worked thanks [01:54] some people added some inapproprate things to it a while back, they may have some sought of acl on it now I'm not sure [01:54] yeah, I added dualboot for you [01:54] sort not sought :) [01:54] yeah, yeah.. [01:55] I'm sick with the flu, leave me alone :P [01:55] hehe we forgive you [02:53] rwabel, from what I understand, backports staging can also go away [02:53] backports is now just like universe and multiverse [02:58] what language was this? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats?action=diff [03:22] spanish [03:22] looks like [03:22] sure it is not portugese? [03:24] nope [03:24] ok [03:24] well the old revisions are in the wiki [03:24] we can pull out when we find out === rob^ pokes head in [03:24] Kassim <-- this is the guy that has been translating pages in place [03:24] please revert if you see him [03:25] ah [03:25] what a pain [03:25] well the copies are stored, so when we figure out what language, it will be trivial to copy them to a new page [03:25] any way of contacting him etc? [03:25] the work is not lose [03:25] not easily [03:25] mediawiki has a user talk page, and tells you when someone edits it [03:26] moin does not [03:26] ah, I thought it was missing a few features [03:26] moin is much nicer in terms of thoughput [03:26] it has manage 10x the number of hits as mediawiki [03:27] but mediawiki has some useful features for larger groups of people and communication only on the wiki [03:28] the wiki mark in media is also more sane and has more features [03:28] for better presentation docs [03:30] burgundavia: thanks for the answer [03:31] rwabel, np [03:32] burgundavia: the page is in portugese, even though I don't speak that language [03:33] rwabel, would you mind moving his translations from the history of the following pages? [03:33] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallUbuntuOnLowMemorySystems [03:33] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats [03:33] I have to be somewhere in 30 minutes [03:33] how do I move history? [03:33] just PortugesePageName is fine now [03:33] just copy paset from the history [03:34] only english part [03:35] click on getinfo [03:35] and then view the edit by Kassim [03:35] copy that [03:37] ok I found it [03:37] and copy where in the RestrictedFormats? [03:37] it's a complet different subject?! [03:37] is it? [03:37] anyway, I have run [03:38] wtf is he doing [03:38] if you get stuck, email the list [03:38] why translate things in place [03:38] I'm now a bit confused where to put that....it's complet different stuff [03:38] when the faq guide was ported into svn, was it done under both licences or just one? [03:38] rob^, gpl, gfdl and cc-by-sa 2.0 [03:38] rob^, ours and his [03:38] all three? [03:39] hmm [03:39] it is a deriv of his work, which is gpl [03:39] and thus must be gpl [03:39] yeah [03:39] he agreed to relicense under our licenses [03:39] which makes it tri-licensed [03:39] super.. [03:40] burgundavia: I better don't move the things, I don't wanna mess sth up.... [03:40] ok, email the list about it then [03:40] I thought the gpl is a software licence [03:40] rob^, it is a license [03:40] the gfdl is the documentation one [03:40] it can applied ot anything, but it is meant for software [03:40] yeah. [03:41] burgundavia: email what to whom? [03:41] gfdl and cc-by-ca 2.0 are DFSG-non-fre [03:41] rwabel, email the ubuntu-doc list about those docs [03:42] burgundavia: sorry, I've no idea about these docs, what should I email..I mean what's the problem or what is not ok..what should be done. [03:58] night === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [~Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob^ [~rob@rob-ubuntu.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:58] rob^, the gpl is also locally on all Ubuntu systems [08:58] /usr/share/licenses or something similar [08:58] yeah [08:58] you can just point them at that [08:58] its only an entity link anyway [08:58] in the doc [08:59] we could just change the entity to point to that instead === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:04] rob^, nice on YelpMain but you'll have to contend with scrollkeeper for that as well editing the toc.xml is quite easy but I think the plan for Breezy would be a separate document === poningru [~poningru@pool-68-238-172-217.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:05] anyone know why the wiki is subdomained under ubuntu and not ubuntulinux? [09:05] but if you just want to put these documents in Yelp status quo, just adding a yelp chunk on the final xml would work [09:05] poningru: it's both [09:05] poningru, its the same thing [09:05] jsgotangco, say again? [09:06] jsgotangco, I was going to suggest it at the meeting as an alternative [09:06] jsgotangco, I'll edit the toc.xml if needed [09:06] or whatever else is needed.. === rob^ is confused [09:07] rob^, coordinate with jdub about it [09:07] ic [09:07] rob^, all entries in yelp are catalogued by sk [09:07] (currently) [09:08] that's why we have a lot of upstream docs in it at the moment [09:09] ok [09:10] are you talking about yelp in Breezy at the moment [09:10] Hoary as well [09:12] the main page in hoary at the moment (as released) is kind of like my idea [09:12] we just need to expand it to cover all our docs [09:14] if the Yelp main page will be status quo, we'll just have to add an sk catalog file so that it'll be part of the front page [09:14] the current main page is seriously non-functional [09:15] with no search, there is no reasonable way for anyone to find anything [09:15] Burgundavia, yes, it just needs love [09:15] and we can safely say that 95% of the questions will be about 10% of our material [09:15] search should be a yelp thing, not a page thing [09:15] well yes, is an upstream issue either way on the search thing... [09:15] search is unlikely to happen in the breezy timeframe, from what I understand [09:16] that's why the workaround was to have a separate document on the yelp main page [09:16] but if thats not workable, we'll just have to contend with adding sk catalog files again [09:16] and edit toc.xml if needed === insanekane [~kane@202.83.34.144] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:16] froud_: are you there ? [09:17] insanekane, you speak portugese or spanish? [09:17] neither [09:17] we'll probably get colony 3 anytime this week... [09:17] Burgundavia: last night, my power went out ... thats why i left suddenly [09:18] insanekane, ah, poor man [09:18] Burgundavia: heavy rains in this area [09:18] ouch [09:18] jsgotangco, where is toc.xml in svn? [09:19] its not part of our svn [09:19] in the distro [09:19] ok [09:20] I got it [09:20] Meeting time (there is a reason I put this first, please leave it!) [09:20] ? [09:20] its in the agenda [09:20] yeah that was me [09:20] what's the issue? [09:21] we rotate 14 and 22 [09:21] 1400z on Thursday is really bad [09:22] it is shit for me as well [09:22] thats midnight my time, and I have to be up at 5am for work [09:22] but it does get me up early [09:22] rob^, its morning for the canucks [09:22] 7am for me [09:22] 22 for me is 6am [09:22] we need to make it like friday instead [09:22] or at some other time [09:23] is this like a meeting or something I had a question about a wiki page [09:23] can I butt in? [09:23] meeting times suck for everybody at different times [09:24] that is why we rotate [09:24] poningru, sure ask away this is just informal talk [09:24] yeah I know they do [09:24] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WiFiHowto [09:24] doesnt that look complete? [09:24] but even an hour earlier would be helpful [09:24] can we take that off of the cleanup list [09:24] poningru, yes, but a little too wordy [09:25] ok so you want it sweet and simplified? [09:25] rob^, anything earlier than 14 would be asking too much for the people in NA [09:25] will work on it then [09:25] man world wide meeting times suck [09:25] yes they do [09:25] the technical board has fun [09:25] as mdz is in my timezone [09:25] a lot more members.. [09:25] hehe yeah they are not so bad if most of the people are in the same hemisphere [09:25] the next CC meeting would suck as that would be at 4am [09:26] poningru, ideally, it should be do A because of B, then do C [09:26] rob^, problem on our side is that our team is spread across atlantic and pacific :) === rob^ is just on the wrong side of the world [09:27] we have active teams members is -7, +1, 0 and whater the aussie/jstongco is [09:27] +10 [09:27] yeah [09:27] im +8 [09:28] so a solution is that we all emigrate somewhere... [09:28] I dunno, but maybe something could be discussed was my objective for it [09:28] rob^, sure we'll put it on discussion on the meeting [09:28] or perhaps some asynchronous mechanism, such as ... mailing list ? :) === insanekane ducks [09:29] grr why does yelp not like the yelp .xml files [09:29] it doesn't like malformed xml [09:29] heh yeah === Burgundavia is glad that HostingGeek has never found the time to grace our channel [09:31] lol [09:31] did he get banned again === jsgotangco likes LocalHelp for lack of a search function... [09:32] no [09:32] he is being himself in #inkscape [09:32] he got banned from #openttd [09:33] jsgotangco, you mean that you like local help if we don't get a search function? [09:36] poningru, the general rule I follow when I write a doc is after I am finished, look at each sentence and try to reduce the word count [09:37] Burgundavia, it can work if we are in that situation... [09:37] jsgotangco, which I fear we may be in [09:37] again... [09:37] but then even old Yelp in RHEL had an Index [09:38] i mean search-capable index [09:38] rofl --> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=19585 [09:38] windows user downloads a .deb and wonders what to do with it [09:38] great [09:41] hmmm freeciv2 already has an osx binary.. [09:41] yes [09:41] how good is open ttd [09:42] the original game plus some cool new features [09:42] they are working on new graphics (they currently need to old copyrighted ones) [09:42] oh you mean the original game is already open? [09:42] they also ship a deb [09:42] no [09:42] the original author of ttd reverse engineered ttd and rewrote it in C [09:43] isnt that sid meier [09:43] ? [09:43] jsgotangco, Burgundavia I just made an update to YelpMain.. bbs [09:43] no [09:43] is Chris Sawyer, of Roller coast tycoon [09:43] oh right...christ sawyer [09:47] what are the other cool oss games out there [09:47] there is a list on the forums, just a sec [09:48] you mean they're already packaged for ubuntu? [09:48] some are [09:48] motu games :D [09:48] barrage is a fun little game [09:48] MOTUGames is mostly my idea [09:48] i would probably enjoy doing MOTUGames [09:48] I am waiting for unfrgivens intro developer docs [09:49] so I can start packaging [09:49] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=5153 [09:49] is openttd already in upstream? [09:50] no [09:50] put the .debs that openttd themselves make install fine on hoary and breezy [09:50] with sound? [09:51] yes [09:51] yes dmix [09:51] nice [09:51] but dmix appears to have borked on me [09:52] hmm let me try... [09:53] OpenTTD requires the original version of Transport Tycoon Deluxe data files in order to function. Please refer to the readme for more information. [09:53] gyaahhh [09:53] I have them [09:53] you want me to mail them to you? [09:53] how big? [09:54] 5 mb [09:54] gee fire away..its not that much [09:55] sent [09:56] can you mail it to me as well please? [09:56] poningru@gmail.com [09:56] oh its mostly artwork stuff... [09:57] all artwork stuff [09:57] poningru, sent [09:58] thanks dude [10:07] ok back [10:08] my issue with localhelp, even though we don't have a search function, is that it becomes messy [10:09] yes it does [10:09] it has pointers all over the place [10:09] we need to satisfy that 95%/10% divide [10:09] and we already have a list of whats in each doc in the toc [10:09] which we currently do not do [10:09] ie, in the toc of each document [10:09] every click that we require users to make has a "cost" [10:10] and 99.9% of people have read a book [10:10] the higher the cost, the more likely they are to give up [10:10] a toc shouldn't be unfamiliar with them either [10:10] the total "money" that people are usually willing to spend on help is about 1 or 2 clicks [10:10] I think it would cost more click using Localhelp [10:11] particularly if the info they were after isnt where they clicked [10:11] for some yes [10:11] but not for the majority [10:11] YelpMain also makes keeping it up to date much easier [10:11] Burgundavia, i got nasty libc6 dependency problems while installing openttd [10:11] LocalHelp is like having a whole new document] [10:11] jsgotangco, oh crap [10:11] they are built against sarge [10:12] Burgundavia, hehehe...long debate on this... [10:12] rob^, the current plan is to have a new document on Yelp [10:12] sometimes binary compatiblity is nice, for stable distros [10:12] rob^, it was already discussed before by jdub and mpt [10:12] jsgotangco, yes, but it doesn't need to be so complicated [10:13] rob^, we lack a search function :( [10:13] jsgotangco, but we still have table of contents [10:13] when we get a search function, we can debate this again [10:13] in each doc, automatically updated as we work on it [10:14] a search function would be nice, but we don't have to have it [10:14] all help have search functions [10:14] except yelp at the moment [10:14] something like LocalHelp works for the wiki because there is no other way to show that kind of info [10:15] but not when each link has its own toc [10:15] say I am looking for one of the common 10 things [10:15] faq/quick guide [10:15] rob^, but anything 2 levels deeper will make it tedious and overwhelming for some [10:16] but that requires a click [10:16] most likely you will know what your problem is ie. I want to install a music app [10:16] no [10:16] how can the 10 most asked questions cover that? [10:16] mostly you will no want you want to do [10:16] not how to do it [10:16] jsgotangco, its not [10:16] task-based, not application-based [10:17] rob^, if you notice GNOME is starting to get task-based even [10:17] lmao --> http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=94318 [10:17] we shouldn't assume everyone who uses Ubunt is a compleat numbty [10:17] 99% are not [10:17] 99% of the computer users in the world are [10:17] at least 99% can read a toc [10:18] that is the segment we are targeting [10:18] Burgundavia, did you get the email of David Ottina? [10:18] but why make it hard [10:18] our documents are books [10:18] they have toc [10:18] jsgotangco, David Ottina?> [10:18] we should be using that [10:18] Burgundavia, i'll forward [10:18] cheers [10:18] jsgotangco, look at System -> Preferences for example, that list is huge and hard to read [10:19] yes, and the gnome people realize that [10:19] there is a wiki page about a rethink of that stuff [10:19] but thats what LocalHelp is [10:19] that's why gnome is beginning to be task-based [10:19] no it isn't [10:20] we need about 7-10 items on the yelp main page [10:20] they can expand to 7 items each [10:20] Burgundavia, yes, in fact it is [10:20] and that makes it worse [10:20] not if the headings are well designed === jsgotangco gives up on the yelp discussion as it was already discussed a lot of times already [10:20] rather than argue about it [10:20] lets just fix LocalHelp [10:21] it takes me at least just six scrolls of the wheel mouse just to view it all [10:21] most people wont read past the first page or two [10:21] and just give up [10:21] rob^, remember that the subsections will be hidden by default [10:21] and only open when they click [10:21] thats why books arent really great for help in the first place [10:22] I'm not arguing, I want to fix LocalHelp, thats why I am speaking up [10:22] also remeber that the text on the wiki is larger [10:22] and the spacing larger [10:22] a little, but its still long [10:22] but most of the subsections will not be open [10:22] and there is still a lot to be added to LocalHelp yet also [10:23] so you wil see 9 items [10:23] my way you would see about 5 [10:23] one for each doc [10:23] click on one, there is the toc for that doc [10:24] I think I can safely predict taht most people will simply click ont he faq guide [10:24] and those that don't will get confused [10:24] the faq guide is for quick answers to common questions [10:24] thats its purpose [10:25] then why make the extra click? if we already know what most people are going to ask [10:25] but by your reasoning, we should scrap everything and just have the faq guide [10:25] not really [10:25] I want small bitsized docs [10:25] not huge books [10:26] that are massivelly interlinked [10:26] think a well done wiki [10:27] there's a reason why Burgundavia wants to respec the curret quickguide as well [10:27] if LocalHelp is made possible [10:28] i'll brb === rob^_ [~rob@rob-ubuntu.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:32] dam irc client died on me === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:40] Burgundavia: open ttd works great in osx though [10:40] ah [11:07] jsgotangco, have you sent that email on to me? [11:12] oh right wait sorry about that [11:12] hey all [11:12] rob^, ping? [11:13] hey mdke === jsgotangco is reading about Rails [11:13] mdke, pong [11:14] whats up? [11:14] salut mdke [11:14] yo [11:14] rob^, i noticed you changed the links to the faqguide on DocteamProjects, is something wrong with the hosting it has currently? [11:15] the previews arnt working [11:15] in what way? [11:15] ie, click on them, you get an error message [11:16] Burgundavia: sent [11:16] jsgotangco, cheers [11:16] eg: [11:16] Routing Error [11:16] Recognition failed for "/~ubuntu-doc/about-ubuntu/C/" [11:16] rob^, i see it, odd. [11:16] I didn't know if anyone was updating them [11:17] yes i have been [11:17] so I have the latest copy of the faq guide on my web host [11:17] ok [11:17] but I can change the link back if you want [11:17] jsgotangco, that is major cool stuff [11:17] have to parse it more later [11:17] Burgundavia: aye its a mouthful...i have to digest it further [11:17] I need to get to bed [11:17] job search calls tomorrow [11:17] heh good luck! [11:18] and faxing my laptop testing stuff! [11:18] Burgundavia: claire sent the wrong fax number [11:18] yes, she emailed me the correct one [11:18] ahh [11:18] i just scanned mine [11:18] rob^, i'll ping tseng to ask why the hosting isn't working. but the docteam linode is working already, we only need a domain name for it and then we can use that. [11:19] mdke, the way I have it is a bit of a fudge (it requires me building then uploading via ftp to my website) [11:19] cool [11:19] feel free to change them to it [11:19] dunno if its worth changing them already to the ip address of the server, or waiting for the domain [11:20] docteam.u.o? [11:20] com [11:21] yeah that one? [11:21] ok [11:21]