/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/08/02/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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Burgundaviasalut mpt02:13
mpthi Burgundavia, I've just put ubuntu-help on the Supermirror02:13
Burgundaviacool02:13
mptmpt@myrealbox.com/help--002:13
Burgundavianow I just need the baz crack of the day to work, haven't tried in a few days02:14
mptwah, where'd he go02:14
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Burgundaviabloody xchat02:15
mptShould show up at http://mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/mpt@myrealbox.com/ within about 15 minutes02:15
Burgundaviaok02:16
mptso feel free to add all the docbook markup I haven't learnt yet, fill in your own sections, etc :-)02:16
Burgundaviaok02:16
mptfor each topic, think: Why has someone come here?02:17
mptit's quite probably because they've tried the obvious thing, and it hasn't worked02:17
mptso each topic should cover the most likely causes of failure.02:17
mptanyway, I need to log off and give the ethernet cable back to the hotel computer :-)02:18
mptI'll be back two hours before the docteam meeting02:18
Burgundaviaok02:19
mpttchau02:19
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Burgundaviamdke, I am waving the flaming sword of organization on the wiki11:14
mdkehello11:26
mdkesounds good11:27
Burgundaviaok11:27
Burgundaviadoes moving fix the links to that page or do I need to do that myself?11:28
mdkeyou have to do that11:28
mdkesame as deleting11:28
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Burgundaviaok, same as mediawiki11:28
Burgundaviasalut jsgotangco 11:28
jsgotangcosalut11:28
jsgotangcoBurgundavia, you seem to have an itch on Installation help heh11:28
mdkeyes cept mediawiki leaves a redirect note on the previous page afaik, ours doesn't even do that11:29
Burgundaviamdke, moving a page creates a redirect, yes11:29
jsgotangcoahhh and mdke is back again...11:29
Burgundaviahowever, mediawiki search ignores redirects11:29
Burgundaviaours does not11:29
BurgundaviaI have been struggling with backlinks11:30
Burgundaviais ther something like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Main_Page11:30
Burgundaviaall I can find is this --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Installation?action=LocalSiteMap11:30
mdkeyes11:30
Burgundaviawhich sucks11:30
Burgundaviato be honest11:30
mdkejust click on the title of the page you want to see the backlinks for11:30
mdkedude11:31
mdkeyou've been deleting pages without knowing that?11:31
BurgundaviaI have been following local site map11:31
mdkeno wonder there are broken links around11:31
jsgotangcoheh11:31
jsgotangcosteam roller11:31
Burgundaviasorry our wiki software hides useful features in stupid locations11:31
=== rob^ finally gets xauth working :)
mdkei thought all wikis have the "click on title for backlinks" thing11:32
BurgundaviaI like mediawiki's links, sorry11:32
Burgundavianothing is hidden in menus11:32
Burgundaviaor hidden completely11:32
jsgotangcoright11:32
jsgotangcogo mediawiki11:32
Burgundaviathe other thing that bugs me is getting from any special page back the page it is about11:33
mdkeok burgs it is hidden I agree, but you really should make sure you know stuff like that before going around deleting pages11:33
Burgundaviamediawiki has a link called aricle11:33
Burgundaviamdke, sorry about that, but that is total bollocks where it puts it11:33
mdkeBurgundavia, i agree, but still, if you're gonna do drastic work, read the docs man11:33
Burgundaviayes11:34
Burgundaviait is just a wiki11:34
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Burgundaviaif I need to read a documenation about how to use it, that is completely broken11:34
mdkei agree11:34
mdkebut still, i warned you about backlinks a few times11:35
BurgundaviaI thought I knew what I was doing11:35
BurgundaviaI found a semi useful link11:35
mdkeok well np11:35
mdkewe can fix the broken links11:35
=== Burgundavia grumbles about stupid broken shit
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mdkeBurgundavia, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowCome has escaped the flaming sword? :p11:37
Burgundaviahaven't got to it yet11:38
mdke;)11:38
Burgundaviadon't worry, there is lots to burn through before then11:38
jsgotangcowhen i saw it, i read "HowToCome"11:38
Burgundavialmao11:38
=== Burgundavia now has to decide whether to sleep for 4 hours or just stay up
rob^thats a pretty big wiki page11:39
Burgundaviaindeed11:39
Burgundaviathe author is quite a nice guy11:39
Burgundaviajust needed to be guided in the correct direction11:39
rob^theres gotta be some useful stuff there :)11:39
Burgundaviawhat do I do with these lovely Moin installation docs?11:39
Burgundaviathey cannot stay where they are, due to misleading names11:40
mdkeyou can't edit them afaik11:41
Burgundaviawhat!!!11:41
mdkelemme read your email11:41
Burgundaviayou are right11:41
BurgundaviaI cannot11:41
rob^hmm my breezy test-bed pc needs 550 mb to upgrade from warty to breezy11:41
=== Burgundavia goes with his sword to hunt down hendrik
mdkeall the HelpOn pages are moin related11:42
Burgundaviayes11:43
=== jsgotangco avoids the wiki stuff as much as possible
BurgundaviaI still hate our wiki11:43
rob^if you don't want to remove them, maybe rename them to MoinEtcEtc or something11:43
Burgundaviabut, like any ugly child, it still needs love11:43
Burgundaviayes11:43
rob^it needs a bitch slap11:43
Burgundaviarob^, I don't want them to die, they just need to move11:44
mdkemaybe we can make a subpage under /Moin/11:44
rob^Burgundavia, yeah, so if you rename them people wont get confused11:44
mdkebut all the links will need redoing i think11:44
rob^yeah :P11:44
Burgundaviathat cannot be that many11:44
jsgotangcodoes the moin sandbox still exist11:44
Burgundaviayes11:45
BurgundaviaMoinSandbox, I think11:45
jsgotangcoeither that or WikiSandbox11:45
jsgotangcohow about FindPage11:46
jsgotangcoand HelpForBeginners11:46
mdkethere are millions of help pages11:46
mdkewell, not millions obviously11:46
jsgotangcowell those are the basic Moin help pages...11:46
mdkeHelpContents is the index11:46
BurgundaviaI am also thinking about a standard page name for installation of programs11:46
mdkeBurgundavia, the problem is you have to deal with all the language variants of the HelpPages too11:46
Burgundaviayes11:47
BurgundaviaI am well aware of that11:47
jsgotangcosee HelpForBeginners is still standard Moin help11:47
jsgotangcoheh11:47
Burgundaviait also needs to move11:47
mdkei dunno11:47
Burgundaviamoin has no bloody namespaces11:47
mdkei still believe that linking is the way forward11:47
Burgundavialike Moin:Blah11:47
Burgundaviaupstream rejected my idea of adding them as "a hack"11:48
=== Burgundavia thinks upstream doesn't understand presentation wikis
jsgotangconice...the whole ubuntu moin wiki still has all the moin help pages...11:48
mdkeof course, you don't think it should?11:49
jsgotangcomdke, not all11:49
BurgundaviaI don't mind the moin help pages11:49
BurgundaviaI just want them clearly labelled as Moin pages11:49
jsgotangcobut then, those pages are really useless in a security sense...11:50
mdkejsgotangco, but how do users learn about how the wiki works?11:50
Burgundaviado you think ProgramInstallation or InstallingProgram is a better default?11:50
Burgundaviamdke, you make a page like this --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction11:51
jsgotangcomdke, like i said, some pages are pretty useless for end users as they pertain mostly to Moin backend config and ACLs11:51
Burgundavialinked from FrontPage11:51
mdkejsgotangco, but they might be useful to some, so why remove them? do they do harm to others?11:52
Burgundaviaemail sent to Hendrik about moving those Moin installation pages11:52
jsgotangcomdke, in a stricter sense, it does not jive with overall Ubuntu wiki documentation hence there should at least be a way to classify them11:52
Burgundaviamdke, in our "main namespace", there should only be docs that pertain to Ubuntu11:53
Burgundaviaand other Ubuntu related stuff11:53
jsgotangcoHelpOnUpdatingPython for example...is very much a Moin issue rather than a Python issue11:53
mdkethose pages are not linked on UserDocumentation11:54
mdkeBurgundavia, there are a lot more than docs in our main namespace11:54
jsgotangcothey may not be, but it doesn't mean its not there :)11:54
Burgundaviamdke, they can be found via search11:54
Burgundaviamdke, that is why I killed those InstallationTutorial pages11:55
Burgundaviaread my email11:55
Burgundaviahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com//FrontPage?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=python&titlesearch=Titles11:55
Burgundaviawhich are you going to choose?11:55
=== mdke shrugs
mdkei'll choose them all and see which one helps11:55
Burgundaviaouch11:55
Burgundaviathat is a lot of clicking and reading11:56
mdkei use linux, i'm always clicking and readings :D11:56
BurgundaviaI really want to move non-docs off our wiki11:56
BurgundaviaI have raised this idea before, but got no support11:56
mdkenon docs?11:56
jsgotangcoheck we better prepare a lot of pitchforks for that11:56
mdkeso developments stuff, motu stuff, userpages?11:56
Burgundaviathe udu wiki exists11:56
Burgundavialets use it11:56
=== Burgundavia curses the lack of namespace support
Burgundaviamediawiki has a nice feature11:57
BurgundaviaBurgundavia is not User:Burgundavia11:57
jsgotangcoyeah the namespace really organizes a lot of stuff11:57
Burgundaviarejected by upstream as a hack11:57
Burgundaviafools11:57
jsgotangcothats why i recommended a client to use mediawiki instead for information stuff11:58
Burgundaviamuch better for what we are trying to do11:58
shawarmaWhy did we settle on Moin in the first place?11:58
Burgundaviashawarma, we didn't choose the wiki11:58
BurgundaviaUbuntu loves python and moin is python11:58
jsgotangcogenerally, its a Python application11:58
Burgundaviamoin is faster than mediawiki11:58
shawarmaOh, right.11:58
Burgundaviamedia is also evil PHP11:59
shawarmaI forget: What were we using before?11:59
BurgundaviaZwiki, more shite11:59
shawarmaOh, right.11:59
Burgundaviathat had even less features, if that is possible11:59
shawarma*G*11:59
mdkeBurgundavia, the udu wiki is merging with our wiki11:59
mdkeditto edubuntu11:59
Burgundaviaseriously?12:00
=== Burgundavia cries
mdkeyes12:00
mdkemark's call12:00
Burgundaviawe really really need namespaces12:00
Burgundaviasegregate all the developer stuff to Developer:12:00
mdkewe could use subpages for that12:01
Burgundaviacan we move them all a subpage of Developers ?12:01
Burgundaviaor Development12:01
mdkeit is possible, but I have a hunch that we don't12:01
mdkedon't/won't12:01
jsgotangcohehehe..even gentoo uses mediawiki...12:02
Burgundaviayes12:02
Burgundaviaso does the hula-project12:02
jsgotangcoyeah12:02
Burgundaviathey are also looking into wiki<-->docbook stuff12:02
Burgundaviavery seriously12:02
jsgotangcoisnt that what Nat was pushing for?12:02
Burgundaviahe is working with the hula team12:03
Burgundaviano idea what capacity12:03
Burgundaviaand the mediawiki people are willing to jump to python, if someone codes for them12:03
Burgundaviathey are seriously shortstaffed12:03
jsgotangcoi have a hula live account but it doesnt do pop12:03
jsgotangcojust smtp12:03
Burgundaviawithout jumping engines, how can we solve our "too many on one wiki" issue?12:04
Burgundaviacan we realisitically ask all to move all the development stuff to subpages?12:05
mdkeIMHO, no12:06
mdkei really don't think there is a need12:06
mdkeyou can ask them to make intuitive names for pages of course12:07
Burgundaviacategories can help12:07
Burgundaviacan we have subcategories?12:07
Burgundaviaie, can I move the category MOTU to be under development?12:08
Burgundaviaalso the category archive12:08
jsgotangcohmmm interesting we have a Matthew East in docteam and there's a Matthew West in the Learn Linux project :)12:08
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jsgotangcosee you all in a few hours, i'm going to drop by the grocer first...12:17
Burgundaviaoh crap12:23
Burgundaviastupid god damn CamelCase12:23
Burgundaviashould I move WithFloppies to FromFloppies, to be consistent?12:31
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mpthi everyone02:23
Burgundaviasalut mpt02:23
mpthi Burgundavia, did anything work?02:23
Burgundaviahaven't tried it02:23
Burgundaviamy life is a total disaster right now02:23
mpthttp://mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/mpt@myrealbox.com/help--0/02:24
mptWhat's up? Anything that can be helped from outside?02:24
Burgundaviaabout the only good news I have heard all week is that I am getting a free laptop, courtesy of your boss02:24
Burgundaviayes, a job would be nice, but canonical has already said no02:24
mptheh, cool02:24
rob^my local lug wants me to give a presentation on Ubunut next meeting02:25
mptWhat did you ask to do?02:25
mpt(for Canonical)02:25
Burgundaviabug traige, docs, usability02:25
rob^anyone know of a good ubuntu style OOo template?02:25
mptBurgundavia: Hmm, well we have quite a few volunteers for all those things :-)02:26
Burgundaviawiki.ubuntu.com/Presentations might have something02:26
rob^thanks Burgundavia 02:26
Burgundaviampt, enrico used to do one day a week of wiki gardening02:26
=== mpt mirrors up
Burgundaviathe spare time I have, I have been dumping into the wiki02:27
mptthereby disproving any claim that you need to be paid :-/02:28
Burgundavianot really02:28
Burgundaviaif I was paid, I could do a lot more work02:29
mpttrus02:29
mpttrue, even02:29
mptWill you have time to look at the archive before the meeting?02:29
Burgundaviaand the wiki does need it02:29
Burgundaviasure, will look now02:29
mptthanks02:31
Burgundaviathe only major issue that I see right off the bat is length of the headings02:34
Burgundaviayelp hides the end02:34
mptYes, there's a lot of yelp tweaks I haven't found out how to do yet02:35
mptone of the things I want to do is hide the ToC frame02:35
mptI thought <?yelp:chunk-depth 0?> would do that, but it got ignored02:36
mptand <?yelp:chunk-depth 1?> resulted in the whole document being rendered as a single page02:36
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jjessedoc meeting today right?03:19
mptyep, 40 minutes03:19
jjessewell if i'm not too busy at work it will be the first one i'm actually at :)03:20
=== Burgundavia grumbles about it being 6:20am here and he is listening to tango
jjessebummer about it being early for you03:21
Burgundaviahey, 22UTC is 7am for Jerome03:21
jjesseburgundavia you are in the us?03:21
BurgundaviaCanada, west coast03:21
jjesseah 03:21
Burgundaviajjesse, where are you?03:22
jjesseMichigan US03:22
jjesseso Eastern TIme zone03:22
Burgundaviaok03:22
rob^hey, what is the name of the guy who founded Ubuntu again?03:25
BurgundaviaMark Shuttleworth03:25
rob^the rich thawe dude03:26
Burgundaviawe need a common about Ubuntu section03:26
Burgundaviathat we can paste into docs03:26
rob^Hes the guy who went up in space, right?03:26
Burgundaviacorrect03:26
rob^cool03:26
rob^this presento is comming along..03:26
Burgundaviaoh, you are doing a presentation for your lug03:27
rob^yeah03:27
BurgundaviaI did one for LinuxFestNorthWest03:27
Burgundavianot bad03:27
rob^they want to use Ubuntu for an installfest comming up03:27
rob^on software freedom day03:27
Burgundaviacool03:27
jjesseOOOO03:27
Burgundaviamy lug still uses FC03:27
Burgundaviapoor bastards who get that03:28
rob^so does mine03:28
rob^but I convinced them otherwise03:28
rob^and they wanted to know more, so yeah..03:28
mpthttps://shipit.ubuntulinux.org/ <-- wtf03:47
Burgundaviaok then03:47
BurgundaviaI remember that old wiki03:47
=== rob^ gets coffee
mptMEETING TIME04:00
mptWho's here?04:00
=== highvolt1ge is Jonathan Carter
=== highvoltage too
mpttwo people? :-)04:01
Burgundaviathe rest will come04:01
mptthree people!04:03
mptIs that a quorum?04:04
rob^w00t!04:04
Burgundaviampt, we meet in #ubuntu-meeting04:05
mptah04:05
Burgundaviamdke, you there?04:08
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Burgundaviampt, welcome back05:18
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rob^so umm yeah05:30
jsgotangcoyeah?05:33
rob^I dunno05:34
rob^time for bed I think, its 130am05:34
Burgundaviajsgotangco, did you do a summary for the jul 14th meeting?05:34
rob^umm I don't think anyone did it did they?05:34
jsgotangcohmmm i have it somewhere over here but i haven't posted it either...05:34
Burgundaviahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary7?action=edit05:35
jsgotangcothese 2 weeks are rather busy on my part05:35
Burgundaviathat is what it should be05:35
BurgundaviaI will make my summary 805:35
jsgotangcoalright, ill post it later05:35
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rob^well that sucks, breezy broke my ssh x forwarding :(05:40
Burgundaviaindeed it does05:45
rob^fudge it05:45
=== rob^ thinks he might have found a work around
Burgundaviarob^, you want to email about the yelp main page stuff as well?05:54
rob^yeah, I'll do in in a while, going to get some sleep first05:55
Burgundaviasure05:55
Burgundaviathe summary is going out in a few minutes05:55
rob^good :)05:56
rob^I'll refer to that05:56
Burgundaviafix if you see things I left out05:56
Burgundaviahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary8?action=show05:56
rob^man locales are so messed up in breezy atm06:01
rob^night all06:02
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mpt... back06:05
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jsgotangcook guys later..good night06:17
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jsgotangcohmm06:17
jsgotangcobtw06:17
jsgotangcobaz can happen anytime06:17
jsgotangcoits just waiting for us06:17
jsgotangconight06:17
mptSo, what did I miss?06:18
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carstenhhi, how do i add comments in a wiki, something like /* comment */ in c++?06:30
jeffschuse ## at the beginning of each comment line06:31
carstenhjeffsch: and how do i comment out blocks?06:31
carstenhok, then i will use ## to comment out a block, thanks a lot06:32
jeffschi don't think you can comment out blocks :(06:32
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carstenhjeffsch: i used ## for this block, thanks a lot again.06:35
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=== mpt finishes reading the meeting log + minutes
mpthttps://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/ubuntu-help07:36
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jjessewhy can't ubuntu get their certificates setup correctly :)  sick of warnings :)08:05
mptheh08:05
mptNot just certificates, but also domain names08:05
mptCompare and contrast:08:05
mpthttp://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration08:05
mpthttps://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration08:06
jjessehttps://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration doesn't exist08:07
mptit did a week ago08:07
mptthe point is, they're different pages on different sites08:07
jjessethat's silly08:08
jjessehttps://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/ubuntu-help/+series/trunk is there a "more" cause its taking forever to loa08:08
jjesseload08:08
mptnothing interesting08:08
mptit's quite embarrassing, really08:08
mptLaunchpad is based around managing code in Bazaar08:09
mptbut *currently*, it lets upstream developers register code that's in SVN, and code that's in CVS, but *not* code that's in Bazaar08:09
mptthat'll be fixed in the next month or two08:09
mptThat's why I put the URL in the description.08:10
jjesseah08:16
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