[02:13] <Burgundavia> salut mpt
[02:13] <mpt> hi Burgundavia, I've just put ubuntu-help on the Supermirror
[02:13] <Burgundavia> cool
[02:13] <mpt> mpt@myrealbox.com/help--0
[02:14] <Burgundavia> now I just need the baz crack of the day to work, haven't tried in a few days
[02:14] <mpt> wah, where'd he go
[02:15] <Burgundavia> bloody xchat
[02:15] <mpt> Should show up at http://mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/mpt@myrealbox.com/ within about 15 minutes
[02:16] <Burgundavia> ok
[02:16] <mpt> so feel free to add all the docbook markup I haven't learnt yet, fill in your own sections, etc :-)
[02:16] <Burgundavia> ok
[02:17] <mpt> for each topic, think: Why has someone come here?
[02:17] <mpt> it's quite probably because they've tried the obvious thing, and it hasn't worked
[02:17] <mpt> so each topic should cover the most likely causes of failure.
[02:18] <mpt> anyway, I need to log off and give the ethernet cable back to the hotel computer :-)
[02:18] <mpt> I'll be back two hours before the docteam meeting
[02:19] <Burgundavia> ok
[02:19] <mpt> tchau
[11:14] <Burgundavia> mdke, I am waving the flaming sword of organization on the wiki
[11:26] <mdke> hello
[11:27] <mdke> sounds good
[11:27] <Burgundavia> ok
[11:28] <Burgundavia> does moving fix the links to that page or do I need to do that myself?
[11:28] <mdke> you have to do that
[11:28] <mdke> same as deleting
[11:28] <Burgundavia> ok, same as mediawiki
[11:28] <Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
[11:28] <jsgotangco> salut
[11:28] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, you seem to have an itch on Installation help heh
[11:29] <mdke> yes cept mediawiki leaves a redirect note on the previous page afaik, ours doesn't even do that
[11:29] <Burgundavia> mdke, moving a page creates a redirect, yes
[11:29] <jsgotangco> ahhh and mdke is back again...
[11:29] <Burgundavia> however, mediawiki search ignores redirects
[11:29] <Burgundavia> ours does not
[11:30] <Burgundavia> I have been struggling with backlinks
[11:30] <Burgundavia> is ther something like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Main_Page
[11:30] <Burgundavia> all I can find is this --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Installation?action=LocalSiteMap
[11:30] <mdke> yes
[11:30] <Burgundavia> which sucks
[11:30] <Burgundavia> to be honest
[11:30] <mdke> just click on the title of the page you want to see the backlinks for
[11:31] <mdke> dude
[11:31] <mdke> you've been deleting pages without knowing that?
[11:31] <Burgundavia> I have been following local site map
[11:31] <mdke> no wonder there are broken links around
[11:31] <jsgotangco> heh
[11:31] <jsgotangco> steam roller
[11:31] <Burgundavia> sorry our wiki software hides useful features in stupid locations
[11:32] <mdke> i thought all wikis have the "click on title for backlinks" thing
[11:32] <Burgundavia> I like mediawiki's links, sorry
[11:32] <Burgundavia> nothing is hidden in menus
[11:32] <Burgundavia> or hidden completely
[11:32] <jsgotangco> right
[11:32] <jsgotangco> go mediawiki
[11:33] <Burgundavia> the other thing that bugs me is getting from any special page back the page it is about
[11:33] <mdke> ok burgs it is hidden I agree, but you really should make sure you know stuff like that before going around deleting pages
[11:33] <Burgundavia> mediawiki has a link called aricle
[11:33] <Burgundavia> mdke, sorry about that, but that is total bollocks where it puts it
[11:33] <mdke> Burgundavia, i agree, but still, if you're gonna do drastic work, read the docs man
[11:34] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:34] <Burgundavia> it is just a wiki
[11:34] <Burgundavia> if I need to read a documenation about how to use it, that is completely broken
[11:34] <mdke> i agree
[11:35] <mdke> but still, i warned you about backlinks a few times
[11:35] <Burgundavia> I thought I knew what I was doing
[11:35] <Burgundavia> I found a semi useful link
[11:35] <mdke> ok well np
[11:35] <mdke> we can fix the broken links
[11:37] <mdke> Burgundavia, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowCome has escaped the flaming sword? :p
[11:38] <Burgundavia> haven't got to it yet
[11:38] <mdke> ;)
[11:38] <Burgundavia> don't worry, there is lots to burn through before then
[11:38] <jsgotangco> when i saw it, i read "HowToCome"
[11:38] <Burgundavia> lmao
[11:39] <rob^> thats a pretty big wiki page
[11:39] <Burgundavia> indeed
[11:39] <Burgundavia> the author is quite a nice guy
[11:39] <Burgundavia> just needed to be guided in the correct direction
[11:39] <rob^> theres gotta be some useful stuff there :)
[11:39] <Burgundavia> what do I do with these lovely Moin installation docs?
[11:40] <Burgundavia> they cannot stay where they are, due to misleading names
[11:41] <mdke> you can't edit them afaik
[11:41] <Burgundavia> what!!!
[11:41] <mdke> lemme read your email
[11:41] <Burgundavia> you are right
[11:41] <Burgundavia> I cannot
[11:41] <rob^> hmm my breezy test-bed pc needs 550 mb to upgrade from warty to breezy
[11:42] <mdke> all the HelpOn pages are moin related
[11:43] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:43] <Burgundavia> I still hate our wiki
[11:43] <rob^> if you don't want to remove them, maybe rename them to MoinEtcEtc or something
[11:43] <Burgundavia> but, like any ugly child, it still needs love
[11:43] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:43] <rob^> it needs a bitch slap
[11:44] <Burgundavia> rob^, I don't want them to die, they just need to move
[11:44] <mdke> maybe we can make a subpage under /Moin/
[11:44] <rob^> Burgundavia, yeah, so if you rename them people wont get confused
[11:44] <mdke> but all the links will need redoing i think
[11:44] <rob^> yeah :P
[11:44] <Burgundavia> that cannot be that many
[11:44] <jsgotangco> does the moin sandbox still exist
[11:45] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:45] <Burgundavia> MoinSandbox, I think
[11:45] <jsgotangco> either that or WikiSandbox
[11:46] <jsgotangco> how about FindPage
[11:46] <jsgotangco> and HelpForBeginners
[11:46] <mdke> there are millions of help pages
[11:46] <mdke> well, not millions obviously
[11:46] <jsgotangco> well those are the basic Moin help pages...
[11:46] <mdke> HelpContents is the index
[11:46] <Burgundavia> I am also thinking about a standard page name for installation of programs
[11:46] <mdke> Burgundavia, the problem is you have to deal with all the language variants of the HelpPages too
[11:47] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:47] <Burgundavia> I am well aware of that
[11:47] <jsgotangco> see HelpForBeginners is still standard Moin help
[11:47] <jsgotangco> heh
[11:47] <Burgundavia> it also needs to move
[11:47] <mdke> i dunno
[11:47] <Burgundavia> moin has no bloody namespaces
[11:47] <mdke> i still believe that linking is the way forward
[11:47] <Burgundavia> like Moin:Blah
[11:48] <Burgundavia> upstream rejected my idea of adding them as "a hack"
[11:48] <jsgotangco> nice...the whole ubuntu moin wiki still has all the moin help pages...
[11:49] <mdke> of course, you don't think it should?
[11:49] <jsgotangco> mdke, not all
[11:49] <Burgundavia> I don't mind the moin help pages
[11:49] <Burgundavia> I just want them clearly labelled as Moin pages
[11:50] <jsgotangco> but then, those pages are really useless in a security sense...
[11:50] <mdke> jsgotangco, but how do users learn about how the wiki works?
[11:50] <Burgundavia> do you think ProgramInstallation or InstallingProgram is a better default?
[11:51] <Burgundavia> mdke, you make a page like this --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction
[11:51] <jsgotangco> mdke, like i said, some pages are pretty useless for end users as they pertain mostly to Moin backend config and ACLs
[11:51] <Burgundavia> linked from FrontPage
[11:52] <mdke> jsgotangco, but they might be useful to some, so why remove them? do they do harm to others?
[11:52] <Burgundavia> email sent to Hendrik about moving those Moin installation pages
[11:52] <jsgotangco> mdke, in a stricter sense, it does not jive with overall Ubuntu wiki documentation hence there should at least be a way to classify them
[11:53] <Burgundavia> mdke, in our "main namespace", there should only be docs that pertain to Ubuntu
[11:53] <Burgundavia> and other Ubuntu related stuff
[11:53] <jsgotangco> HelpOnUpdatingPython for example...is very much a Moin issue rather than a Python issue
[11:54] <mdke> those pages are not linked on UserDocumentation
[11:54] <mdke> Burgundavia, there are a lot more than docs in our main namespace
[11:54] <jsgotangco> they may not be, but it doesn't mean its not there :)
[11:54] <Burgundavia> mdke, they can be found via search
[11:55] <Burgundavia> mdke, that is why I killed those InstallationTutorial pages
[11:55] <Burgundavia> read my email
[11:55] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com//FrontPage?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=python&titlesearch=Titles
[11:55] <Burgundavia> which are you going to choose?
[11:55] <mdke> i'll choose them all and see which one helps
[11:55] <Burgundavia> ouch
[11:56] <Burgundavia> that is a lot of clicking and reading
[11:56] <mdke> i use linux, i'm always clicking and readings :D
[11:56] <Burgundavia> I really want to move non-docs off our wiki
[11:56] <Burgundavia> I have raised this idea before, but got no support
[11:56] <mdke> non docs?
[11:56] <jsgotangco> heck we better prepare a lot of pitchforks for that
[11:56] <mdke> so developments stuff, motu stuff, userpages?
[11:56] <Burgundavia> the udu wiki exists
[11:56] <Burgundavia> lets use it
[11:57] <Burgundavia> mediawiki has a nice feature
[11:57] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia is not User:Burgundavia
[11:57] <jsgotangco> yeah the namespace really organizes a lot of stuff
[11:57] <Burgundavia> rejected by upstream as a hack
[11:57] <Burgundavia> fools
[11:58] <jsgotangco> thats why i recommended a client to use mediawiki instead for information stuff
[11:58] <Burgundavia> much better for what we are trying to do
[11:58] <shawarma> Why did we settle on Moin in the first place?
[11:58] <Burgundavia> shawarma, we didn't choose the wiki
[11:58] <Burgundavia> Ubuntu loves python and moin is python
[11:58] <jsgotangco> generally, its a Python application
[11:58] <Burgundavia> moin is faster than mediawiki
[11:58] <shawarma> Oh, right.
[11:59] <Burgundavia> media is also evil PHP
[11:59] <shawarma> I forget: What were we using before?
[11:59] <Burgundavia> Zwiki, more shite
[11:59] <shawarma> Oh, right.
[11:59] <Burgundavia> that had even less features, if that is possible
[11:59] <shawarma> *G*
[11:59] <mdke> Burgundavia, the udu wiki is merging with our wiki
[11:59] <mdke> ditto edubuntu
[12:00] <Burgundavia> seriously?
[12:00] <mdke> yes
[12:00] <mdke> mark's call
[12:00] <Burgundavia> we really really need namespaces
[12:00] <Burgundavia> segregate all the developer stuff to Developer:
[12:01] <mdke> we could use subpages for that
[12:01] <Burgundavia> can we move them all a subpage of Developers ?
[12:01] <Burgundavia> or Development
[12:01] <mdke> it is possible, but I have a hunch that we don't
[12:01] <mdke> don't/won't
[12:02] <jsgotangco> hehehe..even gentoo uses mediawiki...
[12:02] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:02] <Burgundavia> so does the hula-project
[12:02] <jsgotangco> yeah
[12:02] <Burgundavia> they are also looking into wiki<-->docbook stuff
[12:02] <Burgundavia> very seriously
[12:02] <jsgotangco> isnt that what Nat was pushing for?
[12:03] <Burgundavia> he is working with the hula team
[12:03] <Burgundavia> no idea what capacity
[12:03] <Burgundavia> and the mediawiki people are willing to jump to python, if someone codes for them
[12:03] <Burgundavia> they are seriously shortstaffed
[12:03] <jsgotangco> i have a hula live account but it doesnt do pop
[12:03] <jsgotangco> just smtp
[12:04] <Burgundavia> without jumping engines, how can we solve our "too many on one wiki" issue?
[12:05] <Burgundavia> can we realisitically ask all to move all the development stuff to subpages?
[12:06] <mdke> IMHO, no
[12:06] <mdke> i really don't think there is a need
[12:07] <mdke> you can ask them to make intuitive names for pages of course
[12:07] <Burgundavia> categories can help
[12:07] <Burgundavia> can we have subcategories?
[12:08] <Burgundavia> ie, can I move the category MOTU to be under development?
[12:08] <Burgundavia> also the category archive
[12:08] <jsgotangco> hmmm interesting we have a Matthew East in docteam and there's a Matthew West in the Learn Linux project :)
[12:17] <jsgotangco> see you all in a few hours, i'm going to drop by the grocer first...
[12:23] <Burgundavia> oh crap
[12:23] <Burgundavia> stupid god damn CamelCase
[12:31] <Burgundavia> should I move WithFloppies to FromFloppies, to be consistent?
[02:23] <mpt> hi everyone
[02:23] <Burgundavia> salut mpt
[02:23] <mpt> hi Burgundavia, did anything work?
[02:23] <Burgundavia> haven't tried it
[02:23] <Burgundavia> my life is a total disaster right now
[02:24] <mpt> http://mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/mpt@myrealbox.com/help--0/
[02:24] <mpt> What's up? Anything that can be helped from outside?
[02:24] <Burgundavia> about the only good news I have heard all week is that I am getting a free laptop, courtesy of your boss
[02:24] <Burgundavia> yes, a job would be nice, but canonical has already said no
[02:24] <mpt> heh, cool
[02:25] <rob^> my local lug wants me to give a presentation on Ubunut next meeting
[02:25] <mpt> What did you ask to do?
[02:25] <mpt> (for Canonical)
[02:25] <Burgundavia> bug traige, docs, usability
[02:25] <rob^> anyone know of a good ubuntu style OOo template?
[02:26] <mpt> Burgundavia: Hmm, well we have quite a few volunteers for all those things :-)
[02:26] <Burgundavia> wiki.ubuntu.com/Presentations might have something
[02:26] <rob^> thanks Burgundavia 
[02:26] <Burgundavia> mpt, enrico used to do one day a week of wiki gardening
[02:27] <Burgundavia> the spare time I have, I have been dumping into the wiki
[02:28] <mpt> thereby disproving any claim that you need to be paid :-/
[02:28] <Burgundavia> not really
[02:29] <Burgundavia> if I was paid, I could do a lot more work
[02:29] <mpt> trus
[02:29] <mpt> true, even
[02:29] <mpt> Will you have time to look at the archive before the meeting?
[02:29] <Burgundavia> and the wiki does need it
[02:29] <Burgundavia> sure, will look now
[02:31] <mpt> thanks
[02:34] <Burgundavia> the only major issue that I see right off the bat is length of the headings
[02:34] <Burgundavia> yelp hides the end
[02:35] <mpt> Yes, there's a lot of yelp tweaks I haven't found out how to do yet
[02:35] <mpt> one of the things I want to do is hide the ToC frame
[02:36] <mpt> I thought <?yelp:chunk-depth 0?> would do that, but it got ignored
[02:36] <mpt> and <?yelp:chunk-depth 1?> resulted in the whole document being rendered as a single page
[03:19] <jjesse> doc meeting today right?
[03:19] <mpt> yep, 40 minutes
[03:20] <jjesse> well if i'm not too busy at work it will be the first one i'm actually at :)
[03:21] <jjesse> bummer about it being early for you
[03:21] <Burgundavia> hey, 22UTC is 7am for Jerome
[03:21] <jjesse> burgundavia you are in the us?
[03:21] <Burgundavia> Canada, west coast
[03:21] <jjesse> ah 
[03:22] <Burgundavia> jjesse, where are you?
[03:22] <jjesse> Michigan US
[03:22] <jjesse> so Eastern TIme zone
[03:22] <Burgundavia> ok
[03:25] <rob^> hey, what is the name of the guy who founded Ubuntu again?
[03:25] <Burgundavia> Mark Shuttleworth
[03:26] <rob^> the rich thawe dude
[03:26] <Burgundavia> we need a common about Ubuntu section
[03:26] <Burgundavia> that we can paste into docs
[03:26] <rob^> Hes the guy who went up in space, right?
[03:26] <Burgundavia> correct
[03:26] <rob^> cool
[03:26] <rob^> this presento is comming along..
[03:27] <Burgundavia> oh, you are doing a presentation for your lug
[03:27] <rob^> yeah
[03:27] <Burgundavia> I did one for LinuxFestNorthWest
[03:27] <Burgundavia> not bad
[03:27] <rob^> they want to use Ubuntu for an installfest comming up
[03:27] <rob^> on software freedom day
[03:27] <Burgundavia> cool
[03:27] <jjesse> OOOO
[03:27] <Burgundavia> my lug still uses FC
[03:28] <Burgundavia> poor bastards who get that
[03:28] <rob^> so does mine
[03:28] <rob^> but I convinced them otherwise
[03:28] <rob^> and they wanted to know more, so yeah..
[03:47] <mpt> https://shipit.ubuntulinux.org/ <-- wtf
[03:47] <Burgundavia> ok then
[03:47] <Burgundavia> I remember that old wiki
[04:00] <mpt> MEETING TIME
[04:00] <mpt> Who's here?
[04:01] <mpt> two people? :-)
[04:01] <Burgundavia> the rest will come
[04:03] <mpt> three people!
[04:04] <mpt> Is that a quorum?
[04:04] <rob^> w00t!
[04:05] <Burgundavia> mpt, we meet in #ubuntu-meeting
[04:05] <mpt> ah
[04:08] <Burgundavia> mdke, you there?
[05:18] <Burgundavia> mpt, welcome back
[05:30] <rob^> so umm yeah
[05:33] <jsgotangco> yeah?
[05:34] <rob^> I dunno
[05:34] <rob^> time for bed I think, its 130am
[05:34] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, did you do a summary for the jul 14th meeting?
[05:34] <rob^> umm I don't think anyone did it did they?
[05:34] <jsgotangco> hmmm i have it somewhere over here but i haven't posted it either...
[05:35] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary7?action=edit
[05:35] <jsgotangco> these 2 weeks are rather busy on my part
[05:35] <Burgundavia> that is what it should be
[05:35] <Burgundavia> I will make my summary 8
[05:35] <jsgotangco> alright, ill post it later
[05:40] <rob^> well that sucks, breezy broke my ssh x forwarding :(
[05:45] <Burgundavia> indeed it does
[05:45] <rob^> fudge it
[05:54] <Burgundavia> rob^, you want to email about the yelp main page stuff as well?
[05:55] <rob^> yeah, I'll do in in a while, going to get some sleep first
[05:55] <Burgundavia> sure
[05:55] <Burgundavia> the summary is going out in a few minutes
[05:56] <rob^> good :)
[05:56] <rob^> I'll refer to that
[05:56] <Burgundavia> fix if you see things I left out
[05:56] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary8?action=show
[06:01] <rob^> man locales are so messed up in breezy atm
[06:02] <rob^> night all
[06:05] <mpt> ... back
[06:17] <jsgotangco> ok guys later..good night
[06:17] <jsgotangco> hmm
[06:17] <jsgotangco> btw
[06:17] <jsgotangco> baz can happen anytime
[06:17] <jsgotangco> its just waiting for us
[06:17] <jsgotangco> night
[06:18] <mpt> So, what did I miss?
[06:30] <carstenh> hi, how do i add comments in a wiki, something like /* comment */ in c++?
[06:31] <jeffsch> use ## at the beginning of each comment line
[06:31] <carstenh> jeffsch: and how do i comment out blocks?
[06:32] <carstenh> ok, then i will use ## to comment out a block, thanks a lot
[06:32] <jeffsch> i don't think you can comment out blocks :(
[06:35] <carstenh> jeffsch: i used ## for this block, thanks a lot again.
[07:36] <mpt> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/ubuntu-help
[08:05] <jjesse> why can't ubuntu get their certificates setup correctly :)  sick of warnings :)
[08:05] <mpt> heh
[08:05] <mpt> Not just certificates, but also domain names
[08:05] <mpt> Compare and contrast:
[08:05] <mpt> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration
[08:06] <mpt> https://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration
[08:07] <jjesse> https://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration doesn't exist
[08:07] <mpt> it did a week ago
[08:07] <mpt> the point is, they're different pages on different sites
[08:08] <jjesse> that's silly
[08:08] <jjesse> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/ubuntu-help/+series/trunk is there a "more" cause its taking forever to loa
[08:08] <jjesse> load
[08:08] <mpt> nothing interesting
[08:08] <mpt> it's quite embarrassing, really
[08:09] <mpt> Launchpad is based around managing code in Bazaar
[08:09] <mpt> but *currently*, it lets upstream developers register code that's in SVN, and code that's in CVS, but *not* code that's in Bazaar
[08:09] <mpt> that'll be fixed in the next month or two
[08:10] <mpt> That's why I put the URL in the description.
[08:16] <jjesse> ah