=== terrex [~terrex@84-122-73-155.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra [~ogra@p5089BD70.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === joolz [~joolz@kiar.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lamont__ [~lamont@15.238.5.126] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rob^ [~rob@rob-ubuntu.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === highvoltage [~Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rob^ [~rob@rob-ubuntu.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === highvolt1ge [~Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach [foobar@td9091b35.pool.terralink.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach [foobar@td9091b35.pool.terralink.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Verlassend"] === JaneW [~JaneW@wbs-146-168-164.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [~JaneW@wbs-146-168-164.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko [~doko___@dsl-084-059-076-040.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Unfrgiven [~ankur@202.76.176.94] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mvo [~egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === highvolt1ge [~Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rob^ [~rob@rob-ubuntu.student.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === highvoltage [~Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach [foobar@td9091b35.pool.terralink.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach [foobar@td9091b35.pool.terralink.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Verlassend"] === Seveas [~seveas@ksl403-uva-141.wireless.uva.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Mez [~Mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === highvolt1ge [~Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jdthood [~jdthood@x095.decis.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === terrex [~terrex@84-122-73-155.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === highvolt1ge [~Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === highvolt2ge [~Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [~JaneW@wbs-146-168-164.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Bye"] === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === highvolt1ge [~Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Burgundavia stumbles into the room, rubbing his eyes === rob^ gets coffee to stay awake === doko [~doko___@dsl-084-059-089-064.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mpt [~mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mpt puts on his dunce's cap and joins the meeting === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:05] well, it is good that rob^ is here as well [04:05] we need both viewpoints on LocalHelp === rob^ is on sick leave [04:06] otherwise I wouldnt be :) === Burgundavia is on running-out-of-money-ness [04:06] I'd be asleep [04:06] 5am starts for work suck! [04:06] its midnight here now [04:06] rob^: Are you Robert Stoffers? [04:06] yes === Burgundavia is Corey Burger [04:07] my mommy says I'm cool.. [04:07] Welcome to Ubuntites Anonymous ? [04:07] no, doc team meeting [04:08] ;) [04:09] where is everyone? did they turn the ntp update off on thier boxes? [04:09] :) [04:09] no idea [04:09] I just pinged mdke [04:09] jerome is not online [04:09] or maybe the agenda just wasn't that interesting ;-) [04:09] heh [04:11] ah fugde it, my sshed connection to my other box died during a dist-upgrade [04:11] this could be bad :( [04:11] good luck [04:12] hmm I still have a logon localy on that box :) [04:13] bloody power saving crap.. [04:13] hmm [04:13] this meeting is going off! [04:13] we going to get started? [04:13] sure [04:13] ya [04:14] who is here? [04:14] me, sort of === rob^ [04:14] 1st item -- Meeting times [04:14] yes [04:15] rob^, you added this? [04:15] yep [04:15] lets us know you issues [04:15] What I wanted to discuss is a better timing for the meeting [04:15] but we really need more members here [04:15] This is a bad time for me right now, and a bad time for me next week, it'll be fine after that [04:15] is another day better? [04:15] with my work I wont be able to attend any more meetings [04:16] can I suggest Friday? [04:16] I have no objection [04:16] shall we raise it on the mailing list, due to lack of members here? [04:16] yes good idea [04:16] ok, next item [04:16] project updates [04:17] rob^, you want to lead off on faqguide? [04:17] ok [04:17] the Ubuntu version of the faq guide is really comming along quite well [04:17] there are still a few things we need to fix up, but it will probably be ready for review soon === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@141-nas1.dial-pool.digitelone.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:18] jsgotangco, we just started [04:18] rob^, you want to repeat what you just said for jsgotangco [04:18] yep [04:18] the Ubuntu version of the faq guide is really comming along quite well [04:18] there are still a few things we need to fix up, but it will probably be ready for review soon [04:18] jsgotangco, we are moving the time/day disucssion tot eh mailing list [04:18] as for the KDE profile, there is still a lot of work to be done [04:19] sounds good [04:19] I don't know if we will have the KDE profile ready for Breezy, but time will tell I guess [04:19] is there someone working on the KDE profile? [04:19] so yeah [04:19] jjesse, I am a little bit [04:19] but we could really use someone who uses kubuntu [04:20] our last writing must be done by Sept 8 [04:20] jjesse, you want to talk about the Kubuntu Users Guide? [04:20] its in svn right? i could look into it, i'm behind on kusuerguide though :( [04:20] jjesse, yes [04:20] yep [04:20] rob^ i'll work on it [04:21] ok, thanks :) [04:21] the author of KUDOS is allowing us to add stuff from it [04:21] I dont think anything has yet though.. [04:22] alright where is that located in svn rob^ === jeffsch [~jeffsch@fatwire-202-75.uniserve.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:22] generic/faqguide/C/ [04:22] kudos isnt in there yet though [04:22] what is KUDOS again? [04:23] a kubuntu version of ubuntuguide.org [04:23] KUDOS is like ubuntuguide.org [04:23] ok [04:23] rob^, anything more? [04:23] no, I'm good [04:23] carry on [04:23] jjesse, Kubuntu Users Guide? [04:24] coming along good [04:24] i know some of things we are still waiting for some decisions on [04:24] decisions from whom? [04:24] like whether or not kynaptic will be used for installing software [04:25] kubuntu-devs [04:25] ok [04:25] kynaptic/synaptic is used in the faqguide now [04:25] i know but there is some talk in breezy that willc hange [04:25] oh super.. [04:25] kynaptic only? [04:25] or kapture [04:26] yeah knaptytic vs kapture [04:26] http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuPackageManager [04:26] ah [04:26] which is why the install portion is still not done [04:26] well lucky I havent added much from kubuntu then :) [04:26] ok, the install is not a major deal === lamont [~lamont@15.238.5.126] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:26] people use softare far more than they install it [04:27] agreed, but everything else is coming along well [04:27] Burgundavia: However, installing software is the thing they report trouble with most often [04:27] jjesse, so your writing is currently waiting on kubuntu-developers [04:27] mpt, yes [04:27] yes, a couple of meetings ago it was suggested that using gui apps to install things is a good idea [04:27] judging by the forums [04:27] just had some family emergencies that have slowed down writing [04:27] David Ottina's work [04:27] the seciont that is waiting is part of what froud is writing [04:28] ok [04:28] i gotta get my ass in gear to be honest [04:28] jjesse, anything else specific to mention before we move on? === rob^ looks at the bottom of his empty coffee cup.. [04:29] not that i'm aware of [04:29] ok [04:29] on to the big topic [04:29] Yelp Main page [04:29] you want to go first Burgundavia? [04:29] mpt, you want to present your idea quickly? [04:29] or mpt.. [04:29] sure [04:30] One of the things I identified in http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpfulHelp was that Yelp's front page is pretty bad [04:30] In Ubuntu as well as vanilla Gnome [04:30] The fix, which will be done upstream, is to default yelp to opening one particular book [04:30] For upstream Gnome, this will be the Gnome User's Guide [04:30] I have started writing a document I'm calling "Ubuntu Help" [04:31] You can get it from the Supermirror, which is the part of Launchpad that will be used for mirroring code branches in the future [04:31] http://mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/mpt@myrealbox.com/help--0/ === Burgundavia hangs his head in shame about promising a doc about baz for the doc team in January [04:32] It's a Bazaar archive -- Bazaar is the way Ubuntu-related development will be increasingly distributed, starting a few months from now [04:32] The only non-forward-compatible thing about it is that it uses the baz version of Bazaar, rather than the (eventual replacement) bzr version [04:32] because bzr doesn't support the Supermirror yet. [04:33] when will the docteam change over to it? [04:33] Whenever you like [04:33] Bazaar is distributed [04:33] post breezy would be a good time [04:33] So you can make your own branch [04:33] yes agreed [04:33] and keep it locally [04:33] and mirror it to your own personal archive [04:33] then we can merge from each other's branches. [04:33] For more information on Bazaar, see http://bazaar.canonical.com/ [04:33] dang, and I only just learnt svn.. === jsgotangc1 [~jgotangco@80-nas1.dial-pool.digitelone.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:34] anyone? [04:34] jsgotangc1, hey [04:34] my dsl died [04:34] we are at nr 3 [04:34] im in a freakin' dialup [04:34] yelp main page [04:34] just 3 eh? [04:34] Now, the reason I started it from scratch is so that I could avoid using the GFDL [04:34] mpt, mind if we take jsgotangc1 project update? [04:34] no go ahead [04:35] mpt, what licence are you going to use then? [04:35] my connection is extremely bad at the moment [04:35] and we're going to be talking about licenses later in the meeting. [04:35] ok [04:35] It's dual-licensed under the GPL and the CC BY-SA, with the special exception that the attribution of the CC BY-SA does not apply. [04:35] That way, it can be used by Debian [04:35] As far as I can tell, Debian is going to be removing all GFDL-licensed docs for Etch [04:35] hmm the attribution is the best bit :( [04:36] and they're not happy about the pure BY-SA either, because of the attribution requirement [04:36] anyway, we can discuss licenses later [04:36] mpt, what does you page offer over the exisitng page? [04:36] So after Breezy I'll give Debian a brand-neutralized version of Ubuntu Help [04:37] Well, for the front page it's organized by topic, rather than by document [04:37] because people don't know which, if any, document will contain the answer to their question [04:37] see http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpfulHelp#head-3c25bdfc7f57ac1ab750b2db298e2b75ed82ed91 for more details about that problem [04:38] At the moment, I regret to say, we have a lot of guides of various levels of detail which are duplicating a lot of work [04:38] and I'm sorry for starting yet another one :-) [04:38] I only did it because of the licensing issue. [04:38] ok, whist I dont disagree with what your doing, the page will have links all over the place. people will get lost in it [04:38] The front page has twelve links on it, and I don't intend that number to increase [04:38] if anything, it will decrease [04:38] mpt, no, once they click thru they will be in the middle of some doc [04:39] for this to work better we need to rethink how we do our documentation [04:40] sort of [04:40] mpt's guide would have some writing in it [04:40] exactly [04:40] it wouldn't just be links to existing docs [04:40] if we are going to use this, we should pool our efforts into one monolitic doc [04:41] otherwise it will be messy [04:41] As soon as yelp gets a search function, it can decrease to about 4~5 [04:41] rob^: I'm not sure what you mean by "in the middle of" [04:41] The organization of pages into books is an implementation detail that I want to hide as thoroughly as possible [04:41] I think I'm done [04:41] unless there are any more questions [04:41] Yes, if it's just a ToC it won't be much use to Debian :-) [04:41] I'm all in favor of merging docs === jsgotangco [~jgotangco@99-nas1.dial-pool.digitelone.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:42] mpt, say someone wanted to burn a cd.. that info could be in the middle of say the userguide [04:42] so if we merge the commonprobs, the faq and localhelp into one doc, would that work [04:42] and burning an .iso image could be in the middle of the faq [04:42] its all over the place [04:42] Burgundavia, thats kind of what I'm thinking [04:42] sorry guys, my internet is acting up at th emoment, its raining so hard here, please continue on [04:43] i can't really give input that much since im so lagged because of the rains [04:43] jsgotangco, np [04:43] Burgundavia, maybe even the quick guide [04:43] jsgotangco, I will post the summary and log [04:43] rob^, the quick guide is going to be respeced, next item [04:43] and thus really isn't a doc anymore [04:43] Anyway, I encourage people to get to know bazaar, maybe even send me the URL to their branches :-) [04:43] yes, its redundant [04:43] no, the quick guide is becoming a marketing doc [04:44] ok [04:44] yes [04:44] new features! [04:44] that is a good change of focus [04:44] that was the original focus [04:44] yes [04:44] yeah, but thats not what it does now.. [04:44] yes [04:44] hence respec.. [04:44] ok [04:44] its alright, all docs are in state of flux at the moment anyway [04:44] that was a miscommunication, that happened somewhere in the madness of Mataro [04:45] yeah [04:45] shall we agree to merge the faq guide into localhelp? [04:45] details to be hashed out as needed? [04:45] how are we going to do this? [04:45] let me look at localhelp first [04:45] I will post to the list about it later [04:46] ok [04:46] Burgundavia: We can't do that, they're under different licenses [04:46] Unless you get permission from every contributor [04:46] hmm [04:46] we could just drop one [04:46] the faqguide is already gpl [04:46] yes [04:46] rob^, how much of the old faq guide are you keeping? [04:47] is it worth just dropping and starting again? [04:47] its been changed heaps [04:47] take a look [04:47] yes [04:47] In theory, some faqguide contributor might have a violent disagreement with the BY-SA [04:47] ok, shall we just drop the faq guide and merge your work into the localhelp stuff? [04:48] Burgundavia, I'll take a look at local help first [04:48] ok [04:48] the stuff that mpt posted int eh baz archive is the same as is on LocalHelp [04:48] rob^: Ah, now I think I understand your earlier question. The answer is, every topic appears on its own page. [04:49] Burgundavia, I would dare say thats what we'll do however [04:50] is localhelp only licenced under gpl? [04:50] mpt just through that on [04:50] s/thought/threw [04:50] he didn't know our licenses [04:50] As I said, GPL + BY-SA, with the exception that the attribution restriction of the BY-SA does not apply. [04:51] I went with that after talking with Burgundavia about licenses [04:51] It's the same as OpenOffice.org uses [04:51] http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-community/2005-March/000369.html [04:51] what does taking off BY SA do then.. [04:51] how will it effect the docs? [04:52] It doesn't, directly [04:52] but it means that Ubuntu Help couldn't be copied and pasted into other BY-SA work [04:52] which in turn would make authors of BY-SA works less likely to contribute their changes back. [04:53] from my understanding, the BY-SA just means that they dont have to acknowledge us/ubuntu? [04:53] http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ [04:53] hey jeffsch [04:53] The BY-SA normally *does* mean that they have to attribute the original author [04:54] jeffsch, have you missed anything? [04:54] but Debian doesn't like that for the same reason they don't like the GFDL [04:54] nope [04:54] Hence, my special exception [04:54] jeffsch, ok [04:54] but that sucks quite frankly [04:55] thats our hard work, we should be acknowledged [04:55] Well, people who contribute to GPL apps don't have a problem with their attribution possibly being removed [04:56] I want something that Ubuntu can share with Debian, and I don't mind my attribution being removed [04:56] as do I, but I dont see why Debian needs to be so hard-assed about it [04:56] the GFDL sucks, to be honest [04:57] I have no particular love for Debian, but they're the foundation of Ubuntu, and they've got good principles, and they'll be in a hole without GFDL-licensed docs, and something coming from Ubuntu to help them out will make them feel better about Ubuntu. [04:57] i don't mind our docs go upstream either [04:58] If you're uncomfortable with the idea of your attribution being removed, we have plenty of docs under the GFDL that you can contribute to :-) [04:58] Debian Legal would be happy as well [04:58] yeah, well it doesn't look like I have a choice if I want to keep doing what I'm doing [04:59] but then again, it would be good to give something like this back to Debian [04:59] can i ask a silly question? why would our docs go upstream to debian when they are ubuntu specific? [04:59] rob^: the BY part of the license is the attribution part [04:59] jjesse, they don't have to be [04:59] like the FAQ guide [05:00] rob^: the BY part will still be there [05:00] the key part is the docs still remain free, even if our names are not on it [05:00] http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/ [05:00] jjesse: One thing that Bazaar makes easy is that Debian and Ubuntu can maintain their branches independently, merging only the non-brand-specific parts from each other. [05:00] jeffsch, thanks [05:00] jeffsch, now I get it [05:00] ok [05:00] jjesse: it means our docs can be easily lifted up [05:01] I'm ok with the BY part still being there [05:01] the SA doesn't bother me so much [05:02] shall we post to the list about this? [05:02] Burgundavia, yes good point also [05:03] we also should clear a license change mdz or mako [05:03] yep === mpt thinks [05:03] mpt, you want to do the emailing on this? [05:04] ok then, lets move on === highvoltage [~Jono@196.25.192.240] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:05] new quick guide [05:05] any objections to it becoming a marketing doc? [05:05] Burgundavia, what do you mean by "marketing doc"? [05:05] i don't except that if its a marketing doc, i dont think quickguide is a good title [05:06] Basically, use breezy because here are all the cool new features [05:06] ok [05:06] http://www.linspire.com/quickstart [05:06] see that for an idea [05:06] yeah, ok sounds good :) [05:06] fine w/ me [05:07] jeffsch, any thoughts? [05:07] probably needs a name change or something though [05:07] yes [05:07] new features since hoary? [05:07] yes [05:07] or new features like/not like windows? [05:07] what sets Ubuntu apart, mostly new features [05:08] but maybe cool features that aren't in OS X or windows [05:08] bugger [05:08] netsplit [05:08] we only lost mpt [05:09] Burgundavia: http://www.linspire.com/quickstart is empty [05:10] bugger === mvirkkil [~mvirkkil@vipunen.hut.fi] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === joolz [~joolz@kiar.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:10] it should autostart downloading a pdf [05:10] i thought just cool new breezy features [05:10] Burgundavia, I've seen it before [05:10] ok === uniq [charlie@3ffe:80ee:31fe:0:0:0:0:33] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:11] most of the breezy new features are also not going to be in anything else [05:11] but the idea of the respec is good? no objections? [05:11] no objections from me [05:12] no [05:12] none [05:12] ok, moving on [05:12] im not so sure about Kubuntu though [05:12] jsgotangco, you want to give an update on your project [05:12] its like 80% done [05:12] and jeffsch since you are here as well [05:12] hmm project yes....i'm almost done with my StyleGuide contribution [05:13] on writing for international audience [05:13] as for QuickGuide, yes we'll do the respec === rob^ looks at agenda.. [05:13] coming slowly. jsgotangco has helped, I still hope to be done by july 31. === Mez [~Mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:13] i haven't been doing Kubuntu stuff slowly though [05:13] may be wishful thinking though [05:13] rob^, I was jumping back to get them [05:13] ah cool [05:13] bit lost then for a sec [05:14] jeffsch, jsgotangco anything else? [05:14] well i'm going to make a launchpad team for us [05:14] Ubuntu Documentation Project [05:14] ok [05:14] nope. move along :) [05:14] do we need to discuss licenses further? [05:14] well, one thing I might add [05:14] we need a working X to do work really === Burgundavia has a working X [05:15] rob^, shoot [05:15] the faq as mentioned already is GPL as it was derived from ubuntuguide.org [05:15] yes [05:15] I have it as tri-licenced atm [05:15] ok [05:15] but I'm not too sure about that === ogra [~ogra@p5089BD70.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:16] i thought the author gave permission for gfdl and cc-by-sa [05:16] he did [05:16] jeffsch, yes [05:16] but it is already gpl [05:16] ok, so the version in svn is only two licenses [05:17] no, three [05:17] we never added the gpl to it [05:17] it was gpl anyway [05:17] until now [05:17] its stated at the top of ubuntuguide.org [05:18] but our faqguide is only 2 licenses, we dropped gpl with permission [05:18] ok [05:18] ubuntuguide.org is still gpl [05:18] the docs are different now [05:18] but our doc is a clear deriv of the ubuntuguide.org one [05:18] yes, pretty much all the differences are mine and matts work [05:19] the way I see it is that if we still want to use gpl we can, as that is the orignal licence.. [05:20] but how does everyone see it? [05:20] rob^, you want to ping mako on that one? [05:21] ok [05:21] after the meeting [05:21] ya [05:21] anything else on licensing> [05:21] ? [05:21] ok [05:21] our linode server [05:21] no [05:22] i kinda like PD, the ultimate in free [05:22] shall we defer till next meeting [05:22] so mdke can present it? [05:22] unless anybody else has ideas [05:22] he's in his barrister ceremoney [05:22] his officially a lawyer today [05:22] lucky man [05:23] i guess we can start an Ubuntu Legal team [05:23] heh [05:23] heh [05:23] ok, any further items for this meeting? [05:23] nup [05:23] ok just a quickie, i'll do a team for us in launchpad and announce it later [05:23] ok [05:23] motu has one why don't we [05:24] we already have a wiki team to [05:24] yeah that's why... [05:24] other than that, let's wait for our laptops :) [05:24]