/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/08/03/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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jsgotangcohello08:19
jsgotangcovenda: chill08:22
vendamorn jsgotangco 08:23
jsgotangcovenda: im not in favor of railroading either08:23
vendawell then say so, don't beat around the bush08:24
jsgotangco(i was actually non-existant in the meeting last night because of my connection08:24
vendaI saw that, I read the log08:24
jsgotangcobadly lagged08:24
vendaI did not see anything on the agenda worth meeting for08:25
vendathe main item seemed to be about localhelp08:25
vendaa discussion that was not even attempted properly on the list08:25
vendaand which it seems is being politically forced down everyones throats08:26
vendaThe idea is good, it's just the way they are going about it that is ticking me off08:26
jsgotangcoi would worry more about the content rather than the front for now08:26
jsgotangcoour content is almost non-existant08:26
jsgotangcoat the moment08:27
vendaeactly08:27
vendaif Matthew wants to write and be a help he should do so on the current objectives08:27
vendasmae goes for Burgundavia 08:27
vendanot derail current focus08:27
vendarob^: has done great work08:28
vendaand mpt and Burgundavia can fork, but if they do then they should not defocus the teams08:28
jsgotangcojeff and i are slowly builing the styleguide08:28
vendaand work on edubuntu is moving forward08:29
vendait takes time08:29
vendaand focus08:29
jsgotangcoit does08:29
vendaI am very busy now and not paying attention08:29
vendaso I play catchup08:29
vendabut when I see this kind of negative political behaviour it makes me wonder08:30
jdubvenda: i missed the meeting too; what's the 'localhelp' stuff you're concerned about?08:30
vendaSee launch pad08:30
jsgotangcolaunchpad?08:31
vendahttps://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/ubuntu-help08:31
jsgotangcooh jeezz 08:32
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vendaI don't mind the fact that they forked FAQ Guide. That is their choice.08:33
vendaI even think that the idea of the outline is good08:33
vendaI don't think it should be outside svn08:33
vendaI don't think it should position itself as the defacto for ubuntu-help08:34
jsgotangcofaqguide? i agree08:34
vendaI don't think it should impact on license08:34
vendaI don't think it should be defocusing the docteam from DocteamProjects08:35
vendaThere is space for localhelp and faqguide in the distro08:35
=== rob^ pokes head in
vendamorn rob^ 08:36
rob^hey venda 08:36
rob^I take it you got the email?08:36
highvoltagehi venda 08:36
jsgotangcojdub: busy?08:37
jdubthis is what has been discussed for ages; the document-as-front-page thing08:41
jdubjsgotangco: yeah08:42
jsgotangcojdub: ok i just wanted to ask you what can you suggest on a conference presentation geared towards corporate adoption08:43
vendajdub: no we have discussed that the structure should change08:43
vendajdub: not  that a document will replace it08:43
vendajdub: we do not see it the way mpt and Burgundavia have put it08:44
vendajdub: rob^ has indicated what we have in mind and I know that most of the team agrees with that approach08:47
vendajdub: I like the locahelp outline, but I don't see it as the frontpage of help in Ubuntu08:47
vendajdub: localhelp is jus one more document type from which users can read to get help08:48
vendajdub: localhelp should share level 1 in the help system along with faqguide, quickguide, userguide etc08:48
vendajdub: not take precedence over08:49
vendajdub: in addition it should be an integral part of docteam work, not an external08:49
vendajdub: the license issue. GPL is not a documentation licesne08:50
vendaGFDL is08:50
vendaAs for the debian argument, I fail to see how debain will use ubuntu localhelp as the default for their own help :-)08:51
vendaDebian just uses their own or that of upstream08:52
vendasuch as gnome08:52
vendaor kde08:52
jsgotangcoi'd rather do upstream work for that (which i plan in the future)08:52
vendajsgotangco: I sometimes think of moving upstream altogether :-)08:53
jdubvenda: the point of the document-as-front-page is to link to all the available documentation; but i'm not going to argue about the specifics08:56
jdubjsgotangco: (it's highly likely that GNOME will shift to this style of front page in the near future)08:57
jdubjsgotangco: (rather than just the ooky index)08:57
jsgotangcojdub: i don't argue with that part of the front page really...yelp is what we have at the moment and the document as front page is the best workaround we currently have imo08:58
jdubi wouldn't describe it as a workaround (for the front page of a help browser - there are a lot of other issues that need to be fixed that are unrelated to that)08:59
jsgotangcoah09:00
vendajdub: we have not agreed that help should use the outline here09:04
vendahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/LocalHelp?highlight=%28localhelp%2909:04
vendapeople do not agree that the outline here should be what is the front page09:04
vendathe number of topics in that outline is never ending09:05
vendaand topics are often inter-related09:05
jsgotangcoyeah i told them before its too long for a front page though09:06
vendawhat they are trying too do is do a google type of categorization project09:06
vendaso why not just use google09:06
rob^jsgotangco, yes, as have I09:06
vendathe solution to rapid information retrieval is not another doc. It needs a technological soclution09:07
jsgotangcoour current work are books in structure, but it doesn't mean they should be written like books09:07
vendasearch and idex09:07
jdubvenda: you'll note that the proposal specifically raises search and index, and how it is related to the spec09:07
jdubjsgotangco: right, but that has to be solved differently (and the doc that contains the front page could actually contain the non-book documentation, too)09:08
vendayes, but that is ok, its just that throwing one more document at an information organization and location problem is not the solution09:08
vendajdub: how long do you think that outline is going to get09:09
jdubvenda: perhaps not to a problem that you are making up09:09
vendajust off the top of my head I can add another 30 topic09:09
jdubbut a crafted front page is a great way to introduce the help browser09:09
jdubwhich is the problem mpt is solving09:09
venda[09:02]  <jdub> venda: perhaps not to a problem that you are making up09:10
vendajdub: me and others in the team09:10
vendaI don't stand alone in feeling that this is not the way to go09:10
jdubyou didn't define the problem, you just stated that another document is not a solution09:10
vendadude we have done that in th epast a few times09:10
jdubthe problem being solved is the not-entirely-user-worthy front page of yelp09:10
vendaand the last mesages have indicated what people think09:11
vendajdub: you want to fix the problem then develop a proper help/documentation viewing system09:12
vendajdub: don't throw another doc at it09:12
jdubthis solves a small problem in a simple fashion in a small amount of time09:12
vendathe outline of that do is going to be huge09:12
jduband regardless of the immediate problem, the help browser will need a crafted front page anyway09:13
vendaand who decides what does in that outline09:13
vendahow many cooks will keep that outline organized09:13
rob^everytime we change something in one of the docs, we are going to have to check the front page to make sure we are not breaking anything09:13
rob^what a pain09:13
vendaI give it a few months and the ouline there will be a mess09:13
vendajdub: we have read and seen mpt's solution09:14
vendajdub: we have given it considerable thjought09:14
jdubi don't imagine all of those entries will be on it, nor do i see more being added (it specifically notes that they will be removed)09:14
vendajdub: it is a start in the direction we need, but it is not the solutiuon we need09:14
jdubit's a short term solution for a small problem09:15
vendajdub: who will be the judge of that09:15
vendajdub: an ugly hack that is not the solution, but just a bigger problem09:15
jdubokay, so, tell me what the front page of a help browser would be if it were not a crafted document09:16
vendajdub: what is stopping developers from improving yelp itself09:16
jdubit is not stopping improvement of yelp09:16
vendathat was not the question09:16
jdub(in fact, it's pushing it along)09:16
vendawhy do developers not develop more on the existing yelp09:17
vendawhy do they not change it to solve the problems09:17
jsgotangco" Until then, it should contain no more than about a dozen subtopics."09:17
jdubthis is a change designed to solve a problem09:17
jsgotangcofine with me09:17
vendajdub: who decides the limits09:17
vendawho decides what is the toc and what is not09:17
jdubwe do, based on what we perceive our users need09:18
vendajdub: there is not limit09:18
vendajdub: we don't even know what they need09:18
jdubsome are usefully obvious, like "what's new in <current version>"09:18
jdubthat's why we think critically, hypothesise, and make changes based on feedback09:19
rob^jdub, at the moment thats not whats happening09:19
jdubthe current list is already based on what we know of our users09:19
vendajdub: hmm, and al animals are equal but some are more equal than others09:19
jdub(note that i don't believe it's final)09:19
jdubwelcome to user-centric software design09:20
jdubit's hard09:20
jdubthere's no system09:20
vendajdub: I would suggest you ask the users?09:20
vendajdub: nobody has asked them09:20
jdubwell, two answers to that:09:21
jsgotangco*ahem* we do receive feedback on the list one way or another09:21
jduba) users won't give immediately useful answers09:21
vendajdub: mpt and Burgundavia with a bit of input from some doc people have sucked their thumbs and decided for the mass09:21
jdubb) what's there is inferred and analysed from existing users09:21
rob^venda, thats how I see it09:21
jdubright, and that's what needs to be done to move forward09:21
jdubthen we iterate and improve09:21
vendajdub: do perform user centric design you need to advertise to users and show them what you mean and request input09:22
jdub(my first thought is that the language could be clearer, which i'll have to suggest)09:22
jdubwell, for a start, that will happen (to a degree) as soon as it lands09:23
vendajdub: I must go now. But I have said what I think, if it counts, and I think others have also indictated disatisfaction with the approach to work method and the solution being presented.09:23
jdubsecondly, this sort of thing can be tested without even landing the changes09:23
jdubbut before you do user testing, you have to design something to test09:24
vendaright, but with input from a design team which is not happening09:24
jdubas far as i can see, mpt and corey are the design team09:25
jduband i'm sure they'll accept feedback with good rationale09:25
vendajdub: they forked FAQGUide and because people did not agree09:25
vendajdub: they then just forced this approach09:25
jdubi don't believe that's the sum total of what this line of action means09:25
vendajdub: its all in the lists and the logs09:25
vendajdub: it does not have to be. But mpt and Burgundavia are very dictatorial over what happens09:26
vendawhich is leaving people with a bad taste09:26
vendadefocuing the team09:26
vendaand fragmenting the effort09:27
jdubah yes, dictatorial bad taste09:27
vendaif we did not have issues we would not be discusing them'09:27
vendapeople, other than myself, have voiced concern09:27
vendaand they have been brushed off09:28
jsgotangcoi could understand Burgundavia's case but mpt just sprang up all of a sudden09:28
vendathe approach at present smacks of railroading09:28
vendajsgotangco: we all see Burgundavia case09:28
vendajsgotangco: we even agree with him in many points09:29
jsgotangcobut not the methodologies09:29
vendabut in the sapce of two days it was bagged and balled09:29
vendataken as that is the way it will be09:29
vendalike it or love it09:29
vendaargue and we will cut you off at the knees09:30
vendaOh and just to make sure we will do it all outside of the current structures09:30
jsgotangcoyes just like the crusades...09:30
vendafuck all of you is written all over this09:30
vendawell my day in the real world must begin09:30
vendalater09:31
jsgotangco*whew*09:31
jdubthat dude has so much bile09:31
rob^yes09:32
rob^but there is a reason behind it09:32
jsgotangcochanges are good but we don't need a revolution09:32
rob^jsgotangco, agreed09:32
jdubsounds like everyones assuming the worst09:33
jsgotangcohmm no not really09:33
jsgotangcoi really like to change the front page really09:33
rob^as would most people09:33
jsgotangcobut we'd like to be "in the know" at least of what's the master plan09:33
rob^but we feel like we are being forced into something we haven't discussed or agreed to09:33
jdubrob^: sure, but if you assume you're being forced, you're going to argue against it, everyone's going to get emotional, and no one's going to be focusing on settling problems :)09:34
rob^jdub, I would like to settle the problems, but I'd at least like some input into the settling09:35
jdub"I call again for people to focus on writing the docs and ignore the noise." <- totally the wrong strategy09:35
jsgotangcowell its august next week and a lot of docs still needs love...09:36
jdubrob^: stoffers?09:37
rob^jdub, yes09:38
jdubjust read your mail09:38
jsgotangcohmmm why did he cc mako he's on the list anyways09:39
rob^he feels strongly about it09:40
jsgotangco Life at Kubuntu is much easier and not as09:40
jsgotangcopolitically or religiously charged as ubuntu.09:40
jsgotangcoi hate it when he says that09:40
jdubit's needlessly and purposefully divisive09:41
highvoltage*sigh*09:41
jsgotangcojdub: i agree09:41
jsgotangcohighvoltage: welcome to an ordinary day at #ubuntu-doc heh09:42
jsgotangcojdub: what do you suggest for a conference Ubuntu presentation geared towards community and corporate types? Advocacy? Technology?09:45
jdubyou've seen my ones?09:47
jdubhrm, wonder which are up now09:47
jdubhttp://people.ubuntu.com/~jdub/2005/ubuntu-on-the-desktop/09:48
jdubseen that one?09:48
rob^jdub, that one is quite good, bit dated though09:48
rob^well.. now anyway09:49
=== rob^ thinks he should go and eat now
jsgotangcojdub: i've seen those and plan to incorporate them09:49
jsgotangcowell mordernize it a bit09:50
jsgotangcojdub: i sure wish i can still get a hold of the raw image used for the CD cover though it will help a lot with making paraphernalia...10:00
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=== mdke wakes up and trawls through the flaming
mdkeoh great11:25
jsgotangcowelcome mr. barrister11:26
mdkethis team is not a team at all11:27
jsgotangcoyeah we're better off with a steamroller i guess11:27
mdkethe crazy thing is that this sort of problem is easy to resolve11:28
mdkewe have two divisive factions, both of which aren't remotely interested in resolving matters through communication11:28
jsgotangcoplease elaborate11:29
mdkeits up to us stuck in the middle to try11:29
mdkeerm11:29
mdkeok elaborate11:30
mdkeafter breakfast tho11:30
jsgotangcoduhh11:30
jsgotangcoim leaving in half an hour to try to catch up on the edubuntu meeting at 12utc11:31
mdkek11:31
jsgotangcomdke, let's just start Ubuntu-legal11:32
jsgotangcoi'll be your paralegal11:32
mdkewell rob^ is right that corey and matt haven't gone about this the right way, which is to look for team consensus. 11:32
mdkehowever froud is way divisive too11:32
mdkehis reaction is "let's not talk about this"11:33
mdkewe need to figure out how to make a team here11:33
jsgotangcohaving sane people would be a good start11:34
mdkewell we have some ;)11:34
=== jsgotangco lies down basking in the warmth of edubuntu
mdkebtw can i change the subject?11:34
jsgotangcosure11:34
mdkelaunchpad group11:34
mdkenice idea11:34
jsgotangcoheh the WIKI team had one11:34
jsgotangcowhat the heck why cant UDP11:35
jsgotangcoat least i said "Project" not "Team"11:35
jsgotangcoheh11:35
mdkehowever, the main purpose of a group would be ultimately to control permissions IMO, like to a baz or svn repo, i think the group should be limited to those with commit access11:35
mdkejust an idea11:35
jsgotangcoall the people in the group?11:36
mdkewell as i see it the whole purpose of launchpad groups is to deal with permissions to do stuff11:36
jsgotangcook you lost me11:37
jsgotangcopermissions to what11:37
mdkeok for example11:37
mdkeif you want to translate in rosetta you can only make suggestions right?11:37
mdkeunless you are a member of the translation group for a particular language11:37
jsgotangcohmmm right11:37
mdkethe same applies to other groups11:38
jsgotangco(which reminds me i should make a translation group for ours)11:38
mdkeubuntu backporters get to upload to the backport repo, ubuntu gnome team get to work on gnome projects, etc etc11:38
jsgotangcomdke, assuming our work is in launchpad?11:38
mdkejsgotangco, it might not be in launchpad, but it might easily one day be controlled by launchpad11:39
mdkee.g. commit access is granted by accession to the group in launchpad11:39
mdkei see that as the main reason for making a group11:39
jsgotangcohmm but launchpad currently has only 2 access modes11:40
jsgotangcomember and admin11:40
mdkeno, no11:40
mdkemembership of a particular group gives certain rights11:40
mdkee.g. rosetta administrators can upload po files or whatever11:40
jsgotangcoah alright i think i get your idea11:40
mdkebazaar developers can upload their patches11:40
mdkeetc etc11:40
mdkeMOTU can upload theirs, and close bugs or whatever11:41
mdkei _think_ that is the idea11:41
jsgotangcowell yes by design of launchpad it makes sense11:41
jsgotangcohmm11:41
jsgotangcobtw11:41
jsgotangcoi got invited to do a talk on LinuxWorld Philippines11:41
mdkethat's been distorted a bit recently by the creation of random reams like new user network11:41
mdkereams/teams11:42
jsgotangcoahhh right11:42
mdkebut i think that is the idea11:42
jsgotangcoit does make sense for uploading teams though11:42
jsgotangcobut then we have Ubuntu Members11:42
mdkeyes11:42
mdkeand eventually being in that team will also give certain rights11:42
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mdkelike email addresses or whatever else11:43
jsgotangcoi think the email address thing will be automated in launchpad once membership for a certain person is approved11:43
mdkeanyway, just an idea for the future11:43
mdkeyep11:43
jsgotangcoand will let members adjust their accounts accordingly11:44
mdkeanyway the team is moderated so you can think about it11:44
jsgotangcoi can make anyone an admin if needed11:45
jsgotangcoit just happened i created the team11:45
mdkekeep just you IMHO11:45
jsgotangcook11:45
jsgotangcobtw11:45
jsgotangcohow was your ceremony11:45
mdkeit was ok11:46
mdkei'm now a lawyer11:46
jsgotangcoyou should have celebrated by suing someone11:46
jsgotangco*joke*11:46
mdkenot a bad idea...11:46
mdkei can't practice though for another year11:46
jsgotangcowhy so?11:46
mdkei need to do a year of training before I'm fully qualified11:46
jsgotangcoerr doesn't make you technically unemployed as a lawyer11:47
jsgotangcothat11:47
mdkeyes11:47
mdkei start my year of training in october11:47
mdkeooh launchpad has timezones for members now...11:47
mdkecool11:47
jsgotangcoyeah11:47
jsgotangcohrmm11:47
jsgotangcoubuntite?11:48
mdkeTimezone:  Europe/London11:48
mdkeok i gtg11:49
mdkehave fun!11:49
jsgotangcome too11:49
jsgotangcosee you later11:49
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jsgotangcohey jjesse03:11
jjessehiya jsgotangco03:13
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jsgotangcoenrico: long time no chat!03:20
enricojsgotangco: eh.  at the moment I'm busy reinstalling the home sevrer03:22
jsgotangcohope everything is well with you03:24
jjessewhy do all the ubuntu servers take so $#@$#$$ long to load web pages for me03:31
jsgotangcommm03:32
jsgotangcoask elmo i guess03:32
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jsgotangcogreets mgalvin03:45
mgalvinhi jsgotangco03:48
mgalvinhi all03:48
jjessehiya mgalvin03:49
mgalvinhey jjesse04:01
mgalvinbeen busy past few days... rob^ went to town on the faqguide :)04:02
mgalvinrob^: kudos :)04:02
jjessehey KUDOS is the Kubuntu User Guide :)04:03
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=== rob^ pokes head in
jjessehiya rob^06:58
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rob^ping mpt07:25
mptrob^: pong07:26
rob^hey07:26
rob^I have been having a good look at your proposal for the yelp front page07:27
rob^I think what you have there are some pretty good ideas07:27
mptcool07:27
mptI have some comments on your proposal too, but not sure where to post them07:27
mptIf I put them on the wiki page itself, the comments would be larger than the original :-)07:28
rob^heh07:28
rob^I think the idea that help should be about "help" and less about books is a good one07:28
mptmmm07:28
rob^the main problem I have is that of rail roading07:30
mptrail roading?07:30
rob^not on your behalf07:30
rob^but on behalf of corey07:30
rob^I was recently the recipient of much of this myself and as such looked at your proposal with "cloudy eyes"07:31
rob^what you have is actually pretty good07:32
mptI don't mean to jump on anyone's toes07:33
rob^no07:33
rob^I realise that07:33
mptHmm, I need to rply to that "Future direction thread" :-)08:07
rob^heh08:07
rob^originaly the FAQ was licenced under the GPL08:07
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rob^the reason we have it as BY-SA and GFDL is that the original authors agreed to let us use it under that08:08
rob^ubuntuguide.org that is08:08
rob^I doubt they would have a problem if we wanted to also use it under the GPL 08:10
rob^but yeah, group debate is needed08:10
rob^well, I'm off to bed 08:12
rob^night mpt, thanks for the talk08:12
mptg'night08:18
mdke<308:21
=== mdke is happy
mptmdke: ?08:22
mdkewas worried the team love was getting at a low ebb08:24
mdkeglad you two are gonna get your heads together08:24
mptWe're a dysfunctional family, but full of love08:24
mdkeheh08:24
mdkelike the simpsons08:25
=== mpt is surprised that "flame away I am full of love" returns only one google result
mptI thought Miguel had made it famous08:25
mptah, it's "You can now flame me, I am full of love"08:26
mpthttp://everything2.com/?node_id=108483508:28
mgalvinnot sure if it matters much since debian will accept the by-sa lic soon anyway, but i have no objects to moving the powerpc.ubuntuguide.org content that i wrote to use GPL, we would still need chua's consent as well though08:31
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jjessein regards to my email yesterday on previewing docs is there a way in Kubuntu that I can preview docs before i upload them to svn?09:07
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mptyay freenode09:15
mptmgalvin: the importance of the GPL is that it lets beautifully-written help sentences be moved from the help into the actual GUI of the relevant software, vastly increasing their effectiveness.09:16
mgalvinmpt: I see the light :) like i said i have no objects to using the g GPL, i am really not that picky about it and if it will make the docs more useful then +209:30
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=== Topic for #ubuntu-doc: Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers and questions are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first.
=== Topic (#ubuntu-doc): set by mdke at Mon Jun 20 20:43:03 2005

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