[08:19] <jsgotangco> hello
[08:22] <jsgotangco> venda: chill
[08:23] <venda> morn jsgotangco 
[08:23] <jsgotangco> venda: im not in favor of railroading either
[08:24] <venda> well then say so, don't beat around the bush
[08:24] <jsgotangco> (i was actually non-existant in the meeting last night because of my connection
[08:24] <venda> I saw that, I read the log
[08:24] <jsgotangco> badly lagged
[08:25] <venda> I did not see anything on the agenda worth meeting for
[08:25] <venda> the main item seemed to be about localhelp
[08:25] <venda> a discussion that was not even attempted properly on the list
[08:26] <venda> and which it seems is being politically forced down everyones throats
[08:26] <venda> The idea is good, it's just the way they are going about it that is ticking me off
[08:26] <jsgotangco> i would worry more about the content rather than the front for now
[08:26] <jsgotangco> our content is almost non-existant
[08:27] <jsgotangco> at the moment
[08:27] <venda> eactly
[08:27] <venda> if Matthew wants to write and be a help he should do so on the current objectives
[08:27] <venda> smae goes for Burgundavia 
[08:27] <venda> not derail current focus
[08:28] <venda> rob^: has done great work
[08:28] <venda> and mpt and Burgundavia can fork, but if they do then they should not defocus the teams
[08:28] <jsgotangco> jeff and i are slowly builing the styleguide
[08:29] <venda> and work on edubuntu is moving forward
[08:29] <venda> it takes time
[08:29] <venda> and focus
[08:29] <jsgotangco> it does
[08:29] <venda> I am very busy now and not paying attention
[08:29] <venda> so I play catchup
[08:30] <venda> but when I see this kind of negative political behaviour it makes me wonder
[08:30] <jdub> venda: i missed the meeting too; what's the 'localhelp' stuff you're concerned about?
[08:30] <venda> See launch pad
[08:31] <jsgotangco> launchpad?
[08:31] <venda> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/ubuntu-help
[08:32] <jsgotangco> oh jeezz 
[08:33] <venda> I don't mind the fact that they forked FAQ Guide. That is their choice.
[08:33] <venda> I even think that the idea of the outline is good
[08:33] <venda> I don't think it should be outside svn
[08:34] <venda> I don't think it should position itself as the defacto for ubuntu-help
[08:34] <jsgotangco> faqguide? i agree
[08:34] <venda> I don't think it should impact on license
[08:35] <venda> I don't think it should be defocusing the docteam from DocteamProjects
[08:35] <venda> There is space for localhelp and faqguide in the distro
[08:36] <venda> morn rob^ 
[08:36] <rob^> hey venda 
[08:36] <rob^> I take it you got the email?
[08:36] <highvoltage> hi venda 
[08:37] <jsgotangco> jdub: busy?
[08:41] <jdub> this is what has been discussed for ages; the document-as-front-page thing
[08:42] <jdub> jsgotangco: yeah
[08:43] <jsgotangco> jdub: ok i just wanted to ask you what can you suggest on a conference presentation geared towards corporate adoption
[08:43] <venda> jdub: no we have discussed that the structure should change
[08:43] <venda> jdub: not  that a document will replace it
[08:44] <venda> jdub: we do not see it the way mpt and Burgundavia have put it
[08:47] <venda> jdub: rob^ has indicated what we have in mind and I know that most of the team agrees with that approach
[08:47] <venda> jdub: I like the locahelp outline, but I don't see it as the frontpage of help in Ubuntu
[08:48] <venda> jdub: localhelp is jus one more document type from which users can read to get help
[08:48] <venda> jdub: localhelp should share level 1 in the help system along with faqguide, quickguide, userguide etc
[08:49] <venda> jdub: not take precedence over
[08:49] <venda> jdub: in addition it should be an integral part of docteam work, not an external
[08:50] <venda> jdub: the license issue. GPL is not a documentation licesne
[08:50] <venda> GFDL is
[08:51] <venda> As for the debian argument, I fail to see how debain will use ubuntu localhelp as the default for their own help :-)
[08:52] <venda> Debian just uses their own or that of upstream
[08:52] <venda> such as gnome
[08:52] <venda> or kde
[08:52] <jsgotangco> i'd rather do upstream work for that (which i plan in the future)
[08:53] <venda> jsgotangco: I sometimes think of moving upstream altogether :-)
[08:56] <jdub> venda: the point of the document-as-front-page is to link to all the available documentation; but i'm not going to argue about the specifics
[08:57] <jdub> jsgotangco: (it's highly likely that GNOME will shift to this style of front page in the near future)
[08:57] <jdub> jsgotangco: (rather than just the ooky index)
[08:58] <jsgotangco> jdub: i don't argue with that part of the front page really...yelp is what we have at the moment and the document as front page is the best workaround we currently have imo
[08:59] <jdub> i wouldn't describe it as a workaround (for the front page of a help browser - there are a lot of other issues that need to be fixed that are unrelated to that)
[09:00] <jsgotangco> ah
[09:04] <venda> jdub: we have not agreed that help should use the outline here
[09:04] <venda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LocalHelp?highlight=%28localhelp%29
[09:04] <venda> people do not agree that the outline here should be what is the front page
[09:05] <venda> the number of topics in that outline is never ending
[09:05] <venda> and topics are often inter-related
[09:06] <jsgotangco> yeah i told them before its too long for a front page though
[09:06] <venda> what they are trying too do is do a google type of categorization project
[09:06] <venda> so why not just use google
[09:06] <rob^> jsgotangco, yes, as have I
[09:07] <venda> the solution to rapid information retrieval is not another doc. It needs a technological soclution
[09:07] <jsgotangco> our current work are books in structure, but it doesn't mean they should be written like books
[09:07] <venda> search and idex
[09:07] <jdub> venda: you'll note that the proposal specifically raises search and index, and how it is related to the spec
[09:08] <jdub> jsgotangco: right, but that has to be solved differently (and the doc that contains the front page could actually contain the non-book documentation, too)
[09:08] <venda> yes, but that is ok, its just that throwing one more document at an information organization and location problem is not the solution
[09:09] <venda> jdub: how long do you think that outline is going to get
[09:09] <jdub> venda: perhaps not to a problem that you are making up
[09:09] <venda> just off the top of my head I can add another 30 topic
[09:09] <jdub> but a crafted front page is a great way to introduce the help browser
[09:09] <jdub> which is the problem mpt is solving
[09:10] <venda> [09:02]  <jdub> venda: perhaps not to a problem that you are making up
[09:10] <venda> jdub: me and others in the team
[09:10] <venda> I don't stand alone in feeling that this is not the way to go
[09:10] <jdub> you didn't define the problem, you just stated that another document is not a solution
[09:10] <venda> dude we have done that in th epast a few times
[09:10] <jdub> the problem being solved is the not-entirely-user-worthy front page of yelp
[09:11] <venda> and the last mesages have indicated what people think
[09:12] <venda> jdub: you want to fix the problem then develop a proper help/documentation viewing system
[09:12] <venda> jdub: don't throw another doc at it
[09:12] <jdub> this solves a small problem in a simple fashion in a small amount of time
[09:12] <venda> the outline of that do is going to be huge
[09:13] <jdub> and regardless of the immediate problem, the help browser will need a crafted front page anyway
[09:13] <venda> and who decides what does in that outline
[09:13] <venda> how many cooks will keep that outline organized
[09:13] <rob^> everytime we change something in one of the docs, we are going to have to check the front page to make sure we are not breaking anything
[09:13] <rob^> what a pain
[09:13] <venda> I give it a few months and the ouline there will be a mess
[09:14] <venda> jdub: we have read and seen mpt's solution
[09:14] <venda> jdub: we have given it considerable thjought
[09:14] <jdub> i don't imagine all of those entries will be on it, nor do i see more being added (it specifically notes that they will be removed)
[09:14] <venda> jdub: it is a start in the direction we need, but it is not the solutiuon we need
[09:15] <jdub> it's a short term solution for a small problem
[09:15] <venda> jdub: who will be the judge of that
[09:15] <venda> jdub: an ugly hack that is not the solution, but just a bigger problem
[09:16] <jdub> okay, so, tell me what the front page of a help browser would be if it were not a crafted document
[09:16] <venda> jdub: what is stopping developers from improving yelp itself
[09:16] <jdub> it is not stopping improvement of yelp
[09:16] <venda> that was not the question
[09:16] <jdub> (in fact, it's pushing it along)
[09:17] <venda> why do developers not develop more on the existing yelp
[09:17] <venda> why do they not change it to solve the problems
[09:17] <jsgotangco> " Until then, it should contain no more than about a dozen subtopics."
[09:17] <jdub> this is a change designed to solve a problem
[09:17] <jsgotangco> fine with me
[09:17] <venda> jdub: who decides the limits
[09:17] <venda> who decides what is the toc and what is not
[09:18] <jdub> we do, based on what we perceive our users need
[09:18] <venda> jdub: there is not limit
[09:18] <venda> jdub: we don't even know what they need
[09:18] <jdub> some are usefully obvious, like "what's new in <current version>"
[09:19] <jdub> that's why we think critically, hypothesise, and make changes based on feedback
[09:19] <rob^> jdub, at the moment thats not whats happening
[09:19] <jdub> the current list is already based on what we know of our users
[09:19] <venda> jdub: hmm, and al animals are equal but some are more equal than others
[09:19] <jdub> (note that i don't believe it's final)
[09:20] <jdub> welcome to user-centric software design
[09:20] <jdub> it's hard
[09:20] <jdub> there's no system
[09:20] <venda> jdub: I would suggest you ask the users?
[09:20] <venda> jdub: nobody has asked them
[09:21] <jdub> well, two answers to that:
[09:21] <jsgotangco> *ahem* we do receive feedback on the list one way or another
[09:21] <jdub> a) users won't give immediately useful answers
[09:21] <venda> jdub: mpt and Burgundavia with a bit of input from some doc people have sucked their thumbs and decided for the mass
[09:21] <jdub> b) what's there is inferred and analysed from existing users
[09:21] <rob^> venda, thats how I see it
[09:21] <jdub> right, and that's what needs to be done to move forward
[09:21] <jdub> then we iterate and improve
[09:22] <venda> jdub: do perform user centric design you need to advertise to users and show them what you mean and request input
[09:22] <jdub> (my first thought is that the language could be clearer, which i'll have to suggest)
[09:23] <jdub> well, for a start, that will happen (to a degree) as soon as it lands
[09:23] <venda> jdub: I must go now. But I have said what I think, if it counts, and I think others have also indictated disatisfaction with the approach to work method and the solution being presented.
[09:23] <jdub> secondly, this sort of thing can be tested without even landing the changes
[09:24] <jdub> but before you do user testing, you have to design something to test
[09:24] <venda> right, but with input from a design team which is not happening
[09:25] <jdub> as far as i can see, mpt and corey are the design team
[09:25] <jdub> and i'm sure they'll accept feedback with good rationale
[09:25] <venda> jdub: they forked FAQGUide and because people did not agree
[09:25] <venda> jdub: they then just forced this approach
[09:25] <jdub> i don't believe that's the sum total of what this line of action means
[09:25] <venda> jdub: its all in the lists and the logs
[09:26] <venda> jdub: it does not have to be. But mpt and Burgundavia are very dictatorial over what happens
[09:26] <venda> which is leaving people with a bad taste
[09:26] <venda> defocuing the team
[09:27] <venda> and fragmenting the effort
[09:27] <jdub> ah yes, dictatorial bad taste
[09:27] <venda> if we did not have issues we would not be discusing them'
[09:27] <venda> people, other than myself, have voiced concern
[09:28] <venda> and they have been brushed off
[09:28] <jsgotangco> i could understand Burgundavia's case but mpt just sprang up all of a sudden
[09:28] <venda> the approach at present smacks of railroading
[09:28] <venda> jsgotangco: we all see Burgundavia case
[09:29] <venda> jsgotangco: we even agree with him in many points
[09:29] <jsgotangco> but not the methodologies
[09:29] <venda> but in the sapce of two days it was bagged and balled
[09:29] <venda> taken as that is the way it will be
[09:29] <venda> like it or love it
[09:30] <venda> argue and we will cut you off at the knees
[09:30] <venda> Oh and just to make sure we will do it all outside of the current structures
[09:30] <jsgotangco> yes just like the crusades...
[09:30] <venda> fuck all of you is written all over this
[09:30] <venda> well my day in the real world must begin
[09:31] <venda> later
[09:31] <jsgotangco> *whew*
[09:31] <jdub> that dude has so much bile
[09:32] <rob^> yes
[09:32] <rob^> but there is a reason behind it
[09:32] <jsgotangco> changes are good but we don't need a revolution
[09:32] <rob^> jsgotangco, agreed
[09:33] <jdub> sounds like everyones assuming the worst
[09:33] <jsgotangco> hmm no not really
[09:33] <jsgotangco> i really like to change the front page really
[09:33] <rob^> as would most people
[09:33] <jsgotangco> but we'd like to be "in the know" at least of what's the master plan
[09:33] <rob^> but we feel like we are being forced into something we haven't discussed or agreed to
[09:34] <jdub> rob^: sure, but if you assume you're being forced, you're going to argue against it, everyone's going to get emotional, and no one's going to be focusing on settling problems :)
[09:35] <rob^> jdub, I would like to settle the problems, but I'd at least like some input into the settling
[09:35] <jdub> "I call again for people to focus on writing the docs and ignore the noise." <- totally the wrong strategy
[09:36] <jsgotangco> well its august next week and a lot of docs still needs love...
[09:37] <jdub> rob^: stoffers?
[09:38] <rob^> jdub, yes
[09:38] <jdub> just read your mail
[09:39] <jsgotangco> hmmm why did he cc mako he's on the list anyways
[09:40] <rob^> he feels strongly about it
[09:40] <jsgotangco>  Life at Kubuntu is much easier and not as
[09:40] <jsgotangco> politically or religiously charged as ubuntu.
[09:40] <jsgotangco> i hate it when he says that
[09:41] <jdub> it's needlessly and purposefully divisive
[09:41] <highvoltage> *sigh*
[09:41] <jsgotangco> jdub: i agree
[09:42] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: welcome to an ordinary day at #ubuntu-doc heh
[09:45] <jsgotangco> jdub: what do you suggest for a conference Ubuntu presentation geared towards community and corporate types? Advocacy? Technology?
[09:47] <jdub> you've seen my ones?
[09:47] <jdub> hrm, wonder which are up now
[09:48] <jdub> http://people.ubuntu.com/~jdub/2005/ubuntu-on-the-desktop/
[09:48] <jdub> seen that one?
[09:48] <rob^> jdub, that one is quite good, bit dated though
[09:49] <rob^> well.. now anyway
[09:49] <jsgotangco> jdub: i've seen those and plan to incorporate them
[09:50] <jsgotangco> well mordernize it a bit
[10:00] <jsgotangco> jdub: i sure wish i can still get a hold of the raw image used for the CD cover though it will help a lot with making paraphernalia...
[11:25] <mdke> oh great
[11:26] <jsgotangco> welcome mr. barrister
[11:27] <mdke> this team is not a team at all
[11:27] <jsgotangco> yeah we're better off with a steamroller i guess
[11:28] <mdke> the crazy thing is that this sort of problem is easy to resolve
[11:28] <mdke> we have two divisive factions, both of which aren't remotely interested in resolving matters through communication
[11:29] <jsgotangco> please elaborate
[11:29] <mdke> its up to us stuck in the middle to try
[11:29] <mdke> erm
[11:30] <mdke> ok elaborate
[11:30] <mdke> after breakfast tho
[11:30] <jsgotangco> duhh
[11:31] <jsgotangco> im leaving in half an hour to try to catch up on the edubuntu meeting at 12utc
[11:31] <mdke> k
[11:32] <jsgotangco> mdke, let's just start Ubuntu-legal
[11:32] <jsgotangco> i'll be your paralegal
[11:32] <mdke> well rob^ is right that corey and matt haven't gone about this the right way, which is to look for team consensus. 
[11:32] <mdke> however froud is way divisive too
[11:33] <mdke> his reaction is "let's not talk about this"
[11:33] <mdke> we need to figure out how to make a team here
[11:34] <jsgotangco> having sane people would be a good start
[11:34] <mdke> well we have some ;)
[11:34] <mdke> btw can i change the subject?
[11:34] <jsgotangco> sure
[11:34] <mdke> launchpad group
[11:34] <mdke> nice idea
[11:34] <jsgotangco> heh the WIKI team had one
[11:35] <jsgotangco> what the heck why cant UDP
[11:35] <jsgotangco> at least i said "Project" not "Team"
[11:35] <jsgotangco> heh
[11:35] <mdke> however, the main purpose of a group would be ultimately to control permissions IMO, like to a baz or svn repo, i think the group should be limited to those with commit access
[11:35] <mdke> just an idea
[11:36] <jsgotangco> all the people in the group?
[11:36] <mdke> well as i see it the whole purpose of launchpad groups is to deal with permissions to do stuff
[11:37] <jsgotangco> ok you lost me
[11:37] <jsgotangco> permissions to what
[11:37] <mdke> ok for example
[11:37] <mdke> if you want to translate in rosetta you can only make suggestions right?
[11:37] <mdke> unless you are a member of the translation group for a particular language
[11:37] <jsgotangco> hmmm right
[11:38] <mdke> the same applies to other groups
[11:38] <jsgotangco> (which reminds me i should make a translation group for ours)
[11:38] <mdke> ubuntu backporters get to upload to the backport repo, ubuntu gnome team get to work on gnome projects, etc etc
[11:38] <jsgotangco> mdke, assuming our work is in launchpad?
[11:39] <mdke> jsgotangco, it might not be in launchpad, but it might easily one day be controlled by launchpad
[11:39] <mdke> e.g. commit access is granted by accession to the group in launchpad
[11:39] <mdke> i see that as the main reason for making a group
[11:40] <jsgotangco> hmm but launchpad currently has only 2 access modes
[11:40] <jsgotangco> member and admin
[11:40] <mdke> no, no
[11:40] <mdke> membership of a particular group gives certain rights
[11:40] <mdke> e.g. rosetta administrators can upload po files or whatever
[11:40] <jsgotangco> ah alright i think i get your idea
[11:40] <mdke> bazaar developers can upload their patches
[11:40] <mdke> etc etc
[11:41] <mdke> MOTU can upload theirs, and close bugs or whatever
[11:41] <mdke> i _think_ that is the idea
[11:41] <jsgotangco> well yes by design of launchpad it makes sense
[11:41] <jsgotangco> hmm
[11:41] <jsgotangco> btw
[11:41] <jsgotangco> i got invited to do a talk on LinuxWorld Philippines
[11:41] <mdke> that's been distorted a bit recently by the creation of random reams like new user network
[11:42] <mdke> reams/teams
[11:42] <jsgotangco> ahhh right
[11:42] <mdke> but i think that is the idea
[11:42] <jsgotangco> it does make sense for uploading teams though
[11:42] <jsgotangco> but then we have Ubuntu Members
[11:42] <mdke> yes
[11:42] <mdke> and eventually being in that team will also give certain rights
[11:43] <mdke> like email addresses or whatever else
[11:43] <jsgotangco> i think the email address thing will be automated in launchpad once membership for a certain person is approved
[11:43] <mdke> anyway, just an idea for the future
[11:43] <mdke> yep
[11:44] <jsgotangco> and will let members adjust their accounts accordingly
[11:44] <mdke> anyway the team is moderated so you can think about it
[11:45] <jsgotangco> i can make anyone an admin if needed
[11:45] <jsgotangco> it just happened i created the team
[11:45] <mdke> keep just you IMHO
[11:45] <jsgotangco> ok
[11:45] <jsgotangco> btw
[11:45] <jsgotangco> how was your ceremony
[11:46] <mdke> it was ok
[11:46] <mdke> i'm now a lawyer
[11:46] <jsgotangco> you should have celebrated by suing someone
[11:46] <jsgotangco> *joke*
[11:46] <mdke> not a bad idea...
[11:46] <mdke> i can't practice though for another year
[11:46] <jsgotangco> why so?
[11:46] <mdke> i need to do a year of training before I'm fully qualified
[11:47] <jsgotangco> err doesn't make you technically unemployed as a lawyer
[11:47] <jsgotangco> that
[11:47] <mdke> yes
[11:47] <mdke> i start my year of training in october
[11:47] <mdke> ooh launchpad has timezones for members now...
[11:47] <mdke> cool
[11:47] <jsgotangco> yeah
[11:47] <jsgotangco> hrmm
[11:48] <jsgotangco> ubuntite?
[11:48] <mdke> Timezone:  Europe/London
[11:49] <mdke> ok i gtg
[11:49] <mdke> have fun!
[11:49] <jsgotangco> me too
[11:49] <jsgotangco> see you later
[03:11] <jsgotangco> hey jjesse
[03:13] <jjesse> hiya jsgotangco
[03:20] <jsgotangco> enrico: long time no chat!
[03:22] <enrico> jsgotangco: eh.  at the moment I'm busy reinstalling the home sevrer
[03:24] <jsgotangco> hope everything is well with you
[03:31] <jjesse> why do all the ubuntu servers take so $#@$#$$ long to load web pages for me
[03:32] <jsgotangco> mmm
[03:32] <jsgotangco> ask elmo i guess
[03:45] <jsgotangco> greets mgalvin
[03:48] <mgalvin> hi jsgotangco
[03:48] <mgalvin> hi all
[03:49] <jjesse> hiya mgalvin
[04:01] <mgalvin> hey jjesse
[04:02] <mgalvin> been busy past few days... rob^ went to town on the faqguide :)
[04:02] <mgalvin> rob^: kudos :)
[04:03] <jjesse> hey KUDOS is the Kubuntu User Guide :)
[06:58] <jjesse> hiya rob^
[07:25] <rob^> ping mpt
[07:26] <mpt> rob^: pong
[07:26] <rob^> hey
[07:27] <rob^> I have been having a good look at your proposal for the yelp front page
[07:27] <rob^> I think what you have there are some pretty good ideas
[07:27] <mpt> cool
[07:27] <mpt> I have some comments on your proposal too, but not sure where to post them
[07:28] <mpt> If I put them on the wiki page itself, the comments would be larger than the original :-)
[07:28] <rob^> heh
[07:28] <rob^> I think the idea that help should be about "help" and less about books is a good one
[07:28] <mpt> mmm
[07:30] <rob^> the main problem I have is that of rail roading
[07:30] <mpt> rail roading?
[07:30] <rob^> not on your behalf
[07:30] <rob^> but on behalf of corey
[07:31] <rob^> I was recently the recipient of much of this myself and as such looked at your proposal with "cloudy eyes"
[07:32] <rob^> what you have is actually pretty good
[07:33] <mpt> I don't mean to jump on anyone's toes
[07:33] <rob^> no
[07:33] <rob^> I realise that
[08:07] <mpt> Hmm, I need to rply to that "Future direction thread" :-)
[08:07] <rob^> heh
[08:07] <rob^> originaly the FAQ was licenced under the GPL
[08:08] <rob^> the reason we have it as BY-SA and GFDL is that the original authors agreed to let us use it under that
[08:08] <rob^> ubuntuguide.org that is
[08:10] <rob^> I doubt they would have a problem if we wanted to also use it under the GPL 
[08:10] <rob^> but yeah, group debate is needed
[08:12] <rob^> well, I'm off to bed 
[08:12] <rob^> night mpt, thanks for the talk
[08:18] <mpt> g'night
[08:21] <mdke> <3
[08:22] <mpt> mdke: ?
[08:24] <mdke> was worried the team love was getting at a low ebb
[08:24] <mdke> glad you two are gonna get your heads together
[08:24] <mpt> We're a dysfunctional family, but full of love
[08:24] <mdke> heh
[08:25] <mdke> like the simpsons
[08:25] <mpt> I thought Miguel had made it famous
[08:26] <mpt> ah, it's "You can now flame me, I am full of love"
[08:28] <mpt> http://everything2.com/?node_id=1084835
[08:31] <mgalvin> not sure if it matters much since debian will accept the by-sa lic soon anyway, but i have no objects to moving the powerpc.ubuntuguide.org content that i wrote to use GPL, we would still need chua's consent as well though
[09:07] <jjesse> in regards to my email yesterday on previewing docs is there a way in Kubuntu that I can preview docs before i upload them to svn?
[09:15] <mpt> yay freenode
[09:16] <mpt> mgalvin: the importance of the GPL is that it lets beautifully-written help sentences be moved from the help into the actual GUI of the relevant software, vastly increasing their effectiveness.
[09:30] <mgalvin> mpt: I see the light :) like i said i have no objects to using the g GPL, i am really not that picky about it and if it will make the docs more useful then +2