[08:10] <Madpilot> anyone around?
[08:13] <robitaille> yes.
[08:14] <Madpilot> have you been following the UbuntuHowCome editing?
[08:15] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowCome  <-- current giant mess
[08:15] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowComeDraft <-- draft mostly by rob^ & I
[08:16] <robitaille> I haven't been following that story since I have been back from vacation.
[08:17] <Madpilot> heh. Have a good vacation?
[08:17] <Madpilot> rob^ and a couple of us were talking here about a "total noob's intro to Linux" page
[08:18] <robitaille> yeah...one week away from computers on Galiano island.
[08:18] <Madpilot> and we decided that we could get some use out of the HowCome page if we re-spec'd it
[08:18] <Madpilot> cool... I like the Gulf Islands
[08:23] <robitaille> I would drop the reference to the comp.os.minix posting from Linus.  Doen't bring anything to the document...and most new user probably don't care to know anything about the history of Linux from 14 years ago.
[08:24] <robitaille> add a couple of lines about open/free software?  That's an important bit to the Linux world that may be not known to new users coming from Windows
[08:25] <Madpilot> a few lines on FLOSS would be good. I'm also going to add a link to Ubuntu's Glossary (I wish that was a wiki page rather than a Docs page, though...)
[09:11] <Burgundavia> a link to the DFSG and/or the OSI may also be good
[09:11] <Madpilot> the who and what where? ;)
[09:11] <Burgundavia> Debian Free Software Guidelines and the Open Source Defintion
[09:12] <Burgundavia> basically what makes a license free
[09:13] <Madpilot> give me URLs - I'm editing the Draft page as we speak...
[09:13] <Burgundavia> http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
[09:13] <Burgundavia> http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php
[09:16] <Burgundavia> well, I am glad I don't have my irc client in my webbrowser
[09:16] <Burgundavia> bloody ff
[09:17] <Madpilot> just fell over, did it?
[09:17] <robitaille> which ff? breezy?
[09:17] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:17] <Burgundavia> might be a cairo issue
[09:17] <Burgundavia> seems to cause apps to randomly die
[09:18] <robitaille> but that's under Hoary. 
[09:19] <Madpilot> if Opera had crashed on me, you might not have even noticed - the recovery is pretty seamless for IRC
[09:21] <Madpilot> OK, see the current draft: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowComeDraft  <-- just added the OSI & DFSG stuff, but someone needs to write a better piece of copy around them...
[09:29] <Burgundavia> boy I love changing the volume with the mouse scroll wheel
[09:29] <Madpilot> you know that works even without clicking on the volume applet first?
[09:29] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:29] <Burgundavia> that is what I am talking about
[09:30] <Madpilot> ah, OK.
[09:30] <Madpilot> any opinion on the OSI/DFSG stuff I added to Draft?
[09:30] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowComeDraft
[09:31] <Burgundavia> a bit to flip
[09:31] <Burgundavia> s/to/too
[09:31] <Madpilot> it's short and needs someone who knows what their talking about to fill it in.
[09:32] <Burgundavia> ok
[09:32] <Madpilot> I tend to get sarcastic when I'm making stuff up on the fly 
[09:32] <Madpilot> you should see some of the placeholder copy on Dad's website
[09:32] <Burgundavia> to be honest UbuntuHowCome is not really on my radar of things that really need to be fixed
[09:32] <Madpilot> we need a "What the $%*& is Linux" page
[09:33] <Burgundavia> we also need to make the pages after they get @#$@-ing Linux to be good, so they don't go back to @#$!-ing Windows
[09:33] <Madpilot> well, yes.
[09:33] <Madpilot> but we were talking here about really, really low-level pages. 
[09:33] <Madpilot> "what is Linux" is about as low level as you can get
[09:34] <Burgundavia> where does ubotu keep all of its sayings?
[09:34] <Madpilot> just a sec
[09:35] <Madpilot> got the msg from ubotu?
[09:35] <Burgundavia> cheers
[09:35] <Madpilot> np
[09:35] <Burgundavia> looking at this sound stuff
[09:36] <Burgundavia> going to need to get a default hoary install and lay
[09:36] <Burgundavia> d/lay/play
[09:36] <Madpilot> dual boot time - or triple, if you still want to mess with Warty
[09:36] <Burgundavia> I need a default install of all the supported distros, I can see
[09:37] <Madpilot> then you need to resist the temptation to tweak, install crap & fiddle...
[09:37] <Burgundavia> not hard
[09:37] <Burgundavia> not using the systems day to day
[09:37] <robitaille> I gave up on warty...but still triple-boot nearly on a daily basis (win98/Hoary/Breezy)
[09:37] <Madpilot> when you get the lappy, you could do a massive # of installs on that - XP/Warty/Hoary/Breezy
[09:37] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:38] <robitaille> it's in the contract :)
[09:38] <Madpilot> that would leave your desktop free to do actual work on...
[09:39] <Burgundavia> http://linux.blogweb.de/archives/70-Michael-Lynns-Presentation.html
[09:39] <Burgundavia> willing to mirror that doc, Madpilot ?
[09:39] <Madpilot> you're getting a free, high-end lappy in exchange for babysitting the thing. stop whining
[09:39] <Burgundavia> I am not whining
[09:39] <Madpilot> you mean at warbard? what is it?
[09:40] <poningru> hey guys
[09:40] <Burgundavia> a document that Cisco and ISS don't want to get out
[09:41] <Madpilot> is hosting it likely to get my sorry arse sued?
[09:41] <Burgundavia> no
[09:45] <poningru> Burgundavia: I am finding more people to host that
[09:45] <poningru> possibly freeculture.org
[09:45] <poningru> but no promises
[09:45] <Burgundavia> I just like the idea of access to that kind of information
[09:47] <Burgundavia> poningru, how familiar are you with the sound stuff?
[09:47] <poningru> sound stuff?
[09:47] <poningru> alsa, esd et al?
[09:47] <poningru> not much
[09:47] <poningru> why?
[09:47] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingSoundProblems?highlight=%28sound%29
[09:47] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoundProblemsHoary?highlight=%28sound%29
[09:47] <Burgundavia> expand the cleanup
[09:47] <poningru> hmm ok
[09:48] <Burgundavia> I know nothing about it
[09:48] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/lynn-cisco.pdf  <-- feel free to give this out as needed
[09:48] <Burgundavia> ok
[09:49] <Madpilot> the directory /temp on my domain is robot.txt-protected - it never gets spidered
[09:49] <Burgundavia> can I blog about it?
[09:49] <Madpilot> go ahead. I've got heaps of bandwidth that I never use
[09:50] <Madpilot> there's nothing else in /temp right now anyway - it's my test directory, but these days I can do most testing right on my own machine
[09:50] <poningru> ok lots of people are gonna mirror that
[09:50] <robitaille> Madpilot: you have a typo on your main web page: "Ununtu Linux"
[09:50] <Madpilot> robitaille: nice catch. fixing it now.
[09:53] <poningru> oy thats a mess
[09:53] <Burgundavia> the sound stuff?
[09:54] <Burgundavia> part of project also involves fixing the ubotu stuff
[09:56] <Madpilot> fixed the typo. caught screem trying to eat my index page. odd.
[10:10] <poningru> Burgundavia: I have the necessary skills to fix that
[10:10] <poningru> err I dont
[10:10] <Burgundavia> ok
[10:10] <Burgundavia> np
[10:10] <poningru> sorry
[10:11] <Burgundavia> hey, nor do I
[10:11] <poningru> is there a docs mailing list?
[10:11] <Burgundavia> nothing to be sorry about
[10:11] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:11] <Burgundavia> ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
[10:11] <poningru> hmm maybe I should sign up
[10:11] <Burgundavia> we are currently arguing over a new yelp main page and the licenses
[10:12] <poningru> ooh I want in
[10:12] <poningru> how do I sign up?
[10:12] <robitaille> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
[10:14] <poningru> thanks
[10:15] <Burgundavia> poningru, where do you live?
[10:15] <Madpilot> just signed up there...
[10:16] <poningru> tampa fl
[10:16] <poningru> florida
[10:16] <Burgundavia> ok
[10:16] <poningru> but go to school at Uni of Florida
[10:16] <poningru> Gainesville
[10:16] <Burgundavia> fun, more timezones to deal with
[10:16] <poningru> hehe
[10:16] <Burgundavia> we already have +10, 0, and -7
[10:17] <poningru> I am -5
[10:17] <robitaille> which reminds me...I should probably go to bed soon :)
[10:17] <poningru> hehe cya dude
[10:17] <Burgundavia> indeed
[10:17] <Burgundavia> poningru, robitaille and I live in the same city, yet have no met each other yet
[10:17] <Burgundavia> s/no/not
[10:17] <Madpilot> meh... tomorrow is a holiday in BC, remember?
[10:19] <robitaille> youngs kids don't know the concept of holidays and sleeping in :)
[10:20] <Burgundavia> the reason not to have kids
[10:20] <robitaille> and I have wasted way too much time working on Malone tonight
[10:20] <poningru> where do you guys live?
[10:20] <poningru> how old are you guys?
[10:20] <Burgundavia> robitaille, myself and Madpilot live in Victoria BC
[10:21] <Burgundavia> I am 22, my brother Madpilot is 26
[10:21] <Burgundavia> robitaille is old
[10:21] <poningru> hehe
[10:21] <robitaille> kids :)   (I'm 35)
[10:21] <Burgundavia> what are you taking at uni?
[10:21] <poningru> pre-med
[10:21] <Burgundavia> ah
[10:21] <Burgundavia> what brought you to Ubuntu?
[10:22] <poningru> a little of everything
[10:22] <poningru> basically I was looking to get involved in a linux distro project
[10:22] <poningru> that was userfriendly
[10:22] <poningru> but everything like suse, FC and others
[10:22] <poningru> were a little too buisnessy
[10:24] <poningru> so looked around
[10:24] <poningru> and ubuntu was perfect
[10:24] <Burgundavia> ah
[10:24] <Burgundavia> had you used linux before?
[10:24] <poningru> yeah
[10:24] <poningru> I had used debian and suse
[11:36] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I don't understand the tone
[11:38] <jsgotangco> of what?
[11:38] <Burgundavia> the recent list stuff
[11:39] <jsgotangco> i dont get you
[11:40] <jsgotangco> you mean my reply to the email of mpt and sean
[11:40] <Burgundavia> no
[11:40] <Burgundavia> the tone of other people
[11:40] <Burgundavia> mostly sean
[11:41] <jsgotangco> you know sean, he gets really pissed when things rock all of a sudden without that much consultation
[11:42] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:42] <Burgundavia> NicholasRetallack <-- who is this person?
[11:42] <jsgotangco> then again, this would not have happened if we did made specs early on
[11:42] <jsgotangco> no idea
[11:42] <Burgundavia> indeed
[11:42] <jsgotangco> do you know Calude Paroz?
[11:42] <Burgundavia> he did some nice edits ont he wiki
[11:42] <Burgundavia> no
[11:42] <jsgotangco> hmm
[11:43] <jsgotangco> i mean Claude
[11:43] <Burgundavia> why do you ask?
[11:43] <jsgotangco> i have a launchpad request from him for docteam
[11:43] <jsgotangco> perhaps this is a translator
[11:44] <jsgotangco> hmmm is Brian Burger any relation to you
[11:44] <Burgundavia> yes, my older brother
[11:44] <jsgotangco> ahh he just subscribed to the list
[11:44] <Burgundavia> no wiki edits by anyone named Claude
[11:44] <Burgundavia> nothing on the list in the last few months by a claude
[11:45] <jsgotangco> hmmm ok deferred
[11:45] <jsgotangco> will ask mdke
[11:46] <Burgundavia> something on RosettaWishlist by a Claude
[11:46] <Burgundavia> two things
[11:47] <Burgundavia> can I search lp for claude?
[11:47] <jsgotangco> yes he's in lp in french translators
[11:48] <Burgundavia> ok
[11:49] <jsgotangco> he doesn't have a wiki page though
[11:53] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: the wiki page you sent on UbuntPresentation is good this is actually a real guide compared to what we currently have for ubuntu
[11:53] <jsgotangco> I did make some adjustments for Kubuntu by adding something similar, but not that comprehensive
[11:53] <Burgundavia> the UbuntuPresentation one was just something I bumped into editing the wiki
[11:53] <jsgotangco> nevertheless, i believe a quick guide is about doing common tasks quickly
[11:54] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:54] <jsgotangco> the current quick guide is more a quick tour
[11:54] <Burgundavia> so the guide needs to have its name changed
[11:54] <Burgundavia> mandrake calls it a quick tour
[11:54] <jsgotangco> ahh
[11:54] <jsgotangco> its really a tour in the first place, as indicated in the introductory text
[11:54] <Burgundavia> the coc signing thing is pretty cool
[11:54] <jsgotangco> hmm?
[11:54] <jsgotangco> lp?
[11:55] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:55] <jsgotangco> i havent tried signing the coc on lp
[11:56] <Burgundavia> just did it
[11:56] <Burgundavia> told them about my key
[11:56] <Burgundavia> verified that and then signed the coco
[11:56] <jsgotangco> hmm
[11:56] <jsgotangco> king fahd died
[11:56] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:57] <Burgundavia> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4734415.stm
[11:57] <Burgundavia> rofl
[11:57] <Burgundavia> check planet.ubuntu after you read that
[11:58] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: now we get to watch my server logs go berserk...
[11:58] <Burgundavia> probably not
[11:58] <Madpilot> ah well, I've never used more than a fraction of the bandwidth I pay for in any case...
[11:58] <Burgundavia> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/people/cburger/
[11:58] <Burgundavia> that is pretty cool
[11:59] <Madpilot> you finally got that thing signed?
[11:59] <Burgundavia> and I learned today that there a DD somewhere up the island
[11:59] <Madpilot> a what?
[11:59] <Burgundavia> Debian Developer
[11:59] <Burgundavia> signing his key and him signing yours connects us to the strongly connected set
[12:00] <Burgundavia> http://www.khensu.org/index.php?itemid=115
[12:00] <jsgotangco> yeah
[12:01] <Madpilot> oh boy - check this typo out: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4734175.stm
[12:01] <poningru> Burgundavia: looks like my friends name has made it into stephans blog
[12:01] <poningru> and his mirror site
[12:01] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, why typo?
[12:01] <Burgundavia> which
[12:01] <Madpilot> look in the little "summary box" on the right - it has "insert fact here" about 2/3rds of the way down
[12:01] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:02] <Burgundavia> just noticed that
[12:02] <Burgundavia> where is my edit button?
[12:03] <jsgotangco> hmm plaxo looks evil
[12:03] <Burgundavia> indeed
[12:03] <Burgundavia> my comment from -motu --> that plaxo stuff is evil. My attitude towards non-free stuff is gradually hardening
[12:04] <jsgotangco> and jorge seems to like it
[12:04] <jsgotangco> heh
[12:04] <jsgotangco> i've read about this plaxo thing sometime ago
[12:08] <jsgotangco> brb
[12:33] <mdke> hi all
[03:29] <poningru> woah
[03:51] <mdke> anyone know who TreyEarl is?
[03:55] <mdke> burgundavia really should know better by now
[03:56] <robitaille> Burgundavia gets VERY eager sometimes to clean thing up :)
[03:56] <robitaille> a bit too much maybe...
[03:58] <mpt> ooh, that reminds me, I renamed a page without setting up a redirect
[04:00] <mdke> mpt, if you go to the old page name and click the title, it will show you the broken links
[04:00] <mdke> you can fix them instead of doing a redirect
[04:01] <mdke> robitaille, there are broken links all over the wiki because corey deletes pages without thinking
[04:01] <mdke> e.g. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Java?action=fullsearch&value=linkto%3A%22Java%22&context=180
[04:02] <mdke> :/
[04:02] <mdke> we've discussed it loads of times, and he always says "yeah, ok"
[04:02] <robitaille> he deleted "Java"?
[04:02] <mdke> yes
[04:03] <robitaille> sigh....that was a big one.  It is used all the time on #ubuntu to point users to how to install Java
[04:03] <mdke> yep
[04:03] <mdke> corey is doing good work on the wiki, but he is soooo impetuous
[04:04] <robitaille> so where is the Java stuff....
[04:04] <mdke> dunno
[04:05] <robitaille> and I guess  Java/talk should be deleted....
[04:05] <mpt> mdke: Several of those broken links are in mailing list archives and other sites
[04:05] <mdke> i reckon he deleted Java by accidents
[04:05] <mdke> accident*
[04:05] <mdke> although its pretty difficult to delete a page by accident ;)
[04:05] <mdke> mpt, ah i c
[04:05] <robitaille> I don't think so.  it seems he merged its content into RestrictedFormats
[04:06] <mdke> robitaille, the deletion message is a bit odd, doesn't sound much like he was deleting it
[04:07] <mdke> dunno
[04:16] <lunitik> Someone check out changes to RestrictedFormats ... trying to clean it up... other than seperating out the gplflash stuff... what else can be done... still looks a mess  :(
[04:16] <mdke> hi lunitik 
[04:16] <mdke> there has been a discussion about that on the docteam mailing list over the last couple of days
[04:16] <mdke> have you seen it?
[04:17] <lunitik> Ahh... no... public archive for what I missed?
[04:17] <mpt> In Hoary, gplflash doesn't do anything for me except consume vast amounts of memory to display black screens
[04:17] <mdke> lunitik, http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-July/003134.html
[04:18] <lunitik> Seperated out JavaAMD64 to its own page... think gplflash is too technical for that page... new one would be better I think... then maybe an iTunes page for everything AAC...
[04:18] <lunitik> Thanks
[04:18] <lunitik> Ahh... basic stuff should stay... things that have to be explained should go to seperate pages imo
[04:19] <lunitik> like 'type this' stuff... thats basic enough... for the gplflash stuff overwhelms maybe
[04:19] <mdke> lunitik, are you TreyEarl?
[04:20] <lunitik> mdke, yup
[04:20] <lunitik> I didn't use the preveiw button well though  ;)
[04:20] <mdke> lunitik, you must not delete pages without checking the backlinks first, please!
[04:21] <mdke> robitaille, maybe the Java page was renamed to something else rather than deleted
[04:21] <lunitik> Ahh, ok... just is not useful due to backports... what did it link to?
[04:21] <lunitik> mdke, yes... JavaAMD64... java is now on RestrictedFormats... tells to install 'sun-j2re1.5'
[04:21] <lunitik> (from extras)
[04:21] <mdke> lunitik, you deleted this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingCodecsToTotemHowTo
[04:22] <lunitik> mdke, yes... because w32codecs takes care of it
[04:22] <mdke> when you delete a page, the links to it over the wiki break
[04:22] <lunitik> What linked to it? I saw no links...
[04:22] <mdke> three pages linked to it
[04:22] <mdke> you can see them here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingCodecsToTotemHowTo
[04:22] <lunitik> I can search around for it... its better they link to RestrictedFormats
[04:23] <mdke> sorry
[04:23] <mdke> i mean here:
[04:23] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingCodecsToTotemHowTo?action=fullsearch&value=linkto%3A%22AddingCodecsToTotemHowTo%22&context=180
[04:23] <mdke> lunitik, when you want to delete pages, you MUST fix all links first
[04:23] <mdke> the best solution is not to delete them at all
[04:27] <mdke> because often they are linked outside the wiki on mailing lists and forums etc
[04:34] <lunitik> mdke, ahh... I left to go clean up my mess... linking to RestrictedFormats instead of that... most know of RestrictedFormats anyways... unlikely its used elsewhere imo... but anyways... more on cleaning up...
[04:35] <lunitik> mdke, you think its a good idea to move gplflash info to another page, also, Music store info and AAC doesn't seem appropriate (although the codec info can stay...)
[04:35] <mdke> the java entry on RestrictedFormats is also wrong
[04:35] <mdke> as robitaille has pointed out on the mailing list
[04:35] <lunitik> no its not... I installed from it today
[04:35] <lunitik> it set up a plugin and everything... java is fine here.
[04:35] <mdke> lunitik, the package is not present in the Ubuntu repositories
[04:36] <lunitik> No, its not... but then, neither is w32codecs
[04:36] <robitaille> put you need to point that to users
[04:36] <lunitik> I was under the impression that ubuntu-backports was official?
[04:36] <mdke> lunitik, therefore, the section on java in RestrictedFormats is wrong
[04:36] <lunitik> The page even lists the repo
[04:36] <mdke> the java section does not
[04:36] <lunitik> (its where I found it)
[04:37] <lunitik> mdke, I can add that its in Extras?
[04:37] <mdke> i thought that our policy for RestrictedFormats was to avoid mention of hoary-extras
[04:37] <mdke> but maybe not
[04:45] <robitaille> personally i think RestrictedFormats should simply point to a Java page.  And in the Java page have the 1-2 paragraph how-to, a one sentence thing about free alternatives, and links to the other Java pages in the wiki for other architecture and other javas (IBMJava for example). didn't it used to be that way 2-3 weeks ago?
[04:45] <lunitik> I didn't put the hoary-extras part in... who did?
[04:46] <lunitik> robitaille, if we are allowed to mention backports (which is official), then for x86 users, we can just have them install a package... would be better to have a java on other archs page or so though
[04:46] <lunitik> (as apposed to 2 currently)
[04:47] <lunitik> iTunes Music Store, RealPlayer, and gplflash sections need sorting out... what should I do?
[04:48] <lunitik> They should really be out the way someplace... w32codecs offers RealAudio and Video codecs, gplflash is too technical, and Music Store is almost like advertising (this page is visited A LOT!)
[04:49] <mdke> lunitik, hoary-extras is not official. hoary-backports is an official repository
[04:49] <lunitik> Official Repository ---- that we can't use?
[04:50] <lunitik> I didn't edit anything to do with extras... I've been away for 2 months (in jail)
[04:51] <robitaille> lunitik: have you talked to Burgundavia?  My recollection is that he is the one who added most of that stuff you are asking about (music store, realplayer, etc)
[04:51] <lunitik> robitaille, is he around?
[04:51] <mdke> lunitik, he's not here right now
[04:52] <lunitik> He monitors wiki changes? I can do it now while I'm motivates, and he can say ok or nay later?
[04:53] <robitaille> I just saying that maybe you should talk to him first.  He was doing major rewrites of that page, and it seems you want to do the same.  It would be better if you are both on the same page.  I expect he will be up in the next couple of hours.
[04:54] <lunitik> robitaille, that works... I'll likely be around...
[04:56] <mdke> lunitik, best thing is to contribute to the thread on the team mailing list
[05:16] <lunitik> Seems easier to read now... Java, MP3, and W32Codecs are at the top, all easy to skim... then DVD (more reading), then Flash (gplflash makes it technical), then AAC cuz its a lot of reading, then RealPlayer because only people that will read it are people that don't want Totem (which is prefered)... hopefully its a little cleaner now... still want to talk about moving RealPlayer and Music Store things away, also gplflash... but thats wher
[05:16] <lunitik> e at for further discussion...
[05:17] <lunitik> (so basically, things to discuss are at the bottem, things that are ok at top  :D
[05:17] <lunitik> )
[05:18] <lunitik> (I'd send to mailing list, but I have no idea how to make it send to a thread thats already started prior to signing up...
[06:41] <mpt> mgalvin: ping
[07:00] <mpt> mdke: ping
[07:00] <mgalvin> mpt: ping
[07:00] <mpt> mgalvin: Hi, I have a couple of questions for you
[07:00] <mpt> First, how does one apply for XVN commit access?
[07:00] <mgalvin> sure whats up
[07:00] <mpt> er, SVN
[07:02] <jjesse> svn access is given out through enrico i think
[07:03] <mgalvin> submit a few patches to the mailing list and someone with svn access will apply them, after commiting a few and if all looks good you get svn access
[07:03] <mpt> ok
[07:04] <mpt> mgalvin: Second question: Would you be willing to license your contributions to the FAQ Guide under the GPL, in addition to the existing licenses?
[07:04] <mgalvin> sure
[07:05] <mpt> mgalvin: Great! Would you mind e-mailing me (or maybe the ubuntu-doc mailing list would be better) a message to that effect?
[07:07] <mgalvin> i had mentioned my approval of using GPL in that long thread, but sure, i'll send a seperate message to the list about it
[07:11] <mpt> thanks mgalvin
[07:14] <mgalvin> sent
[07:15] <mgalvin> mpt: hehe, maybe i should use my middle name to futher confuse people, one guess as to what my middle name is ;)
[07:15] <mpt> oh dear
[07:19] <mgalvin> :)
[07:29] <mpt> ah, crud, my mailbox just filled up
[07:35] <mpt> mgalvin: Have you had time to have a look at Bazaar?
[07:35] <mgalvin> mpt: not really
[07:38] <mpt> Now that I have the instructions sorted out, it should take about ten minutes to get going
[07:51] <mgalvin> mpt: instructions on moving to bazzar?
[07:55] <mpt> mgalvin: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp
[08:06] <mpt> hi Burgundavia
[08:09] <Burgundavia> hey
[08:10] <mdke> mpt, pong?
[08:10] <mpt> mdke: Sorry, I should have unponged, mgalvin already answered my question
[08:10] <mpt> er, depinged, I mean
[08:10] <mdke> cooll
[08:11] <Burgundavia> mdke, what is this about the java page being deleted?
[08:11] <mdke> Burgundavia, you deleted it dude
[08:12] <Burgundavia> mdke, no I didn't
[08:12] <mdke> RecentChanges says you did. You probably renamed it, but it's the same thing
[08:13] <mdke> Java 17h 14m ago Info CoreyBurger2 the term is amd64, not x86_64 and categorized
[08:13] <Burgundavia> huh
[08:13] <Burgundavia> that is very very odd
[08:13] <Burgundavia> I edited it, ala the summary
[08:14] <Burgundavia> I am very very certain that I didn't delete it
[08:14] <mdke> you must have renamed or deleted it by accident or something
[08:14] <Burgundavia> nope
[08:14] <Burgundavia> dude, I am deleting old and redundant pages, not useful ones like Java
[08:15] <mdke> maybe you did it by accident
[08:15] <Burgundavia> extremely unlikely
[08:15] <Burgundavia> the delete button is quite hidden
[08:15] <Burgundavia> anyway, how do I restore it?
[08:16] <mdke> not easily
[08:16] <mdke> normally the old page would have a diff
[08:16] <mdke> but in this case it seems that it does not
[08:16] <mdke> Java?action=info
[08:17] <mdke> the only thing I can think of is to ask henrik if he can have a look for the physical page on the filesystem
[08:17] <Burgundavia> I remember looking at the page and seeing the x86_64 stuff and editing it for that
[08:17] <mdke> sure you didn't rename it?
[08:18] <mpt> what was the page called?
[08:18] <mdke> mpt, Java
[08:18] <Burgundavia> absolutely certain
[08:18] <Burgundavia> what reason is there to rename it?
[08:18] <mdke> i dunno
[08:18] <mdke> Burgundavia, give your password to anyone?
[08:18] <Burgundavia> nope
[08:18] <mdke> leave your computer unattended?
[08:19] <mpt> A one-word title wouldn't autolinkify :-)
[08:19] <Burgundavia> yes, but there was no one here during that timeframe
[08:19] <Burgundavia> and the summary is one I wrote
[08:19] <mdke> its really odd because there is no revision history
[08:20] <mdke> maybe it is a random bug or data error or something
[08:20] <Burgundavia> might this be a moin bug?
[08:22] <mpt> What did the page contain?
[08:22] <mpt> (I've never seen it)
[08:22] <mdke> i think it was quite short actually
[08:22] <Burgundavia> a quite nice tutorial on doing java
[08:22] <mdke> Burgundavia, robitaille thought it might have been merged into the section on RestrictedFormats
[08:23] <mpt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingJavaSupport :-/
[08:23] <Burgundavia> mdke, possible
[08:24] <mpt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Java/talk still exists
[08:24] <Burgundavia> yes
[08:24] <mpt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Java15
[08:24] <Burgundavia> those talk pages are relics on the migration
[08:24] <mdke> yeah
[08:24] <Burgundavia> the 15 page is an old versin
[08:24] <mdke> we decided to use those talk pages because in some cases the lists of subpages was useful.
[08:25] <Burgundavia> shall I recreate java with the info from restrictedformats?
[08:25] <mdke> nice email by jeffsch
[08:25] <mdke> Burgundavia, is the info in RestrictedF the correct info?
[08:25] <Burgundavia> yes
[08:25] <mdke> then yeah I guess so :)
[08:25] <Burgundavia> ok
[08:25] <mdke> i like the idea of having RestrictedFormats as an index
[08:25] <Burgundavia> with subpages?
[08:25] <Burgundavia> ala BinaryDriverHowto?
[08:26] <mdke> hmm
[08:26] <Burgundavia> that binary driver one makes searching for "ati driver" actually come up with some thing
[08:26] <mdke> i don't know much about subpages
[08:26] <Burgundavia> look at what I did with installation
[08:26] <mdke> yeah i see em
[08:26] <mdke> i would avoid it for this
[08:27] <mdke> plus, its best not to change urls for things like Java
[08:27] <Burgundavia> that is why the page gets left in place
[08:27] <Burgundavia> you can still link to BinaryDriverHowto
[08:27] <mdke> just have links in RestrictedFormats pointing to Java, etc
[08:27] <Burgundavia> yes
[08:27] <mdke> i don't really see the advantage in using subpages for those things, although for Installation it kinda makes sense
[08:28] <Burgundavia> restrictedformats is quite long and unwieldy
[08:28] <mdke> i agree in farming it out to shorter pages, just not necessarily subpages
[08:29] <Burgundavia> why not subpages?
[08:29] <mdke> why subpages?
[08:29] <Burgundavia> be very clear what is it
[08:29] <Burgundavia> it is, even
[08:29] <Burgundavia> mp3 is a restricted format
[08:30] <mpt> subpages are for things that are always going to be subsets of the thing being discussed
[08:30] <mdke> hmm
[08:30] <mpt> MP3 is a restricted format now, but it won't always be :-)
[08:30] <Burgundavia> yes, that is true
[08:30] <Burgundavia> that is what #redirect is for
[08:32] <mdke> i see jeffsch has also marked styleguide as finished :)))
[08:32] <Burgundavia> cool
[08:33] <Burgundavia> I have to run
[08:33] <mdke> okies
[08:33] <Burgundavia> if someone can deal with that java stuff, that would be great
[08:33] <mdke> i'll do that
[08:33] <Burgundavia> thanks, sorry about dumping it
[08:34] <mdke> Burgundavia, btw is that java package in hoary-extras?
[08:40] <jeffsch> mpt: ping
[08:41] <mpt> jeffsch: pong
[08:41] <mdke> hey jeffsch 
[08:41] <jeffsch> just a question about baz
[08:41] <mdke> nice work on the styleguide
[08:41] <jeffsch> on UbuntuHelp, should baz get http://mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/mpt@myrealbox.com/help--0 ubuntu-help
[08:42] <jeffsch> be http://mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/mpt@myrealbox.com/help--0 ~/archives/ubuntu-help?
[08:42] <jeffsch> hey mdke
[08:44] <Burgundavia> mdke, yes
[08:46] <mpt> jeffsch: No, you could do it that way if you like, but it's not necessary
[08:46] <mpt> jeffsch: ~/archives (or equivalent) is where Bazaar keeps patch logs, cached revisions, etc
[08:47] <mpt> you can have the actual things you're developing wherever else you like
[08:47] <jeffsch> ok. I was expecting everything to be under the ~/archives 
[08:47] <mpt> I have my copy of Ubuntu Help in ~/ubuntu/help, alongside ~/ubuntu/launchpad
[08:47] <jeffsch> is this the only docs on bazaar? http://bazaar.canonical.com/doc/
[08:48] <jeffsch> they really suck, I can't understand what the heck is going on
[08:48] <mpt> I've never read those docs
[08:48] <Burgundavia> yes, those docs suck
[08:48] <mpt> I just use baz help and baz whatever -h :-)
[08:49] <jeffsch> ok
[08:49] <mpt> most of the commands you don't need unless you're doing fancy stuff like branches of branches
[08:49] <mpt> just commit, diff, status, undo, archive-mirror
[08:51] <jeffsch> ok. but if i want to make sure i have the latest version of a file in the baz archive, do i have to get update it from each mirror?
[08:51] <mpt> You can merge from whoever you like
[08:51] <mpt> just like Linus Torvalds does
[08:51] <mpt> it's not necessary for Linus to merge from everyone all the time
[08:51] <Burgundavia> so if you think I am doing crack, you can not merge from me
[08:51] <Burgundavia> but merge from mpt
[08:51] <mpt> precisely
[08:52] <jeffsch> ok. but how do i know who has the latest and greatest?
[08:52] <mpt> or vice versa :-)
[08:53] <mpt> jeffsch: same way people announce new docs now -- on the mailing list
[08:53] <mpt> but on a micro level
[08:53] <mpt> If you know someone (like me, for example) is regularly doing stuff, you can do a diff
[08:53] <mpt> baz diff mpt@myrealbox.com/help--0 | less
[08:54] <jeffsch> ok. whose archive gets released then?
[08:54] <mpt> Whoever's happens to be best at the time :-)
[08:54] <mpt> There's no bottleneck
[08:55] <mpt> and no-one can hold the project hostage
[08:56] <mpt> just like with the kernel
[08:59] <jeffsch> so after i make a change and put it on my mirror, i write an email to the list?
[08:59] <jeffsch> is there anyway to automate sending an email?
[08:59] <mpt> if you have a substantial chunk that you've finished, you could let people know, sure
[09:00] <mpt> or let them know on IRC
[09:00] <mdke> mpt, you have no plan to put the doc on our svn repo?
[09:01] <mpt> mdke: For a new doc, I'd rather not
[09:01] <mdke> how come?
[09:01] <mpt> since we'd just be switching back to Bazaar later on
[09:02] <mpt> I can understand sticking with SVN for existing docs until people get to know Bazaar
[09:02] <mdke> but do you intend the doc to be published in breezy?
[09:02] <jeffsch> i'm having trouble wrapping my head around the idea of updating from 20 different mirrors everyday, just to make sure i'm wroking on the latest doc
[09:02] <mdke> we need all the docs together
[09:02] <jjesse> why are we even talking about switching to bazaar right now when we should be finishing projects in svn instead
[09:03] <mdke> its not a question of separating old and new docs, we need all the docs in the same place
[09:03] <mpt> mdke: I'd hope it would be good enough for 5.10, yes
[09:03] <jeffsch> mdke: +1
[09:03] <jeffsch> jjesse: +1
[09:04] <jjesse> i think we should quit arguing and actually do some doc work, commits have been way down it seems from the traffic onthe commit mailing list
[09:04] <mpt> jjesse: Sure, I'm trying to spend as much time as possible writing and as little time as possible talking
[09:05] <jjesse> to be honset (and not trying to offend) it seems the opposite for a lot people
[09:05] <jjesse> creating new things in baazaar, new things in launchpad etc...
[09:05] <mpt> I'm up to patch-6 after only a couple of days
[09:06] <mpt> though measuring by number of commits is a bit meaningless :-)
[09:09] <mpt> jeffsch: With the kernel, people aren't updating from 20 different mirrors every day
[09:09] <jjesse> stupid connection :(
[09:09] <mpt> development organizes itself into a tree, so each person ends up merging from a few, who merge from a few others, etc
[09:11] <mpt> I'm mainly working on customizing.xml at the moment
[09:12] <jeffsch> baz may be a better system, but it is more complicated to use, it seems
[09:12] <jeffsch> now may not be the best time to get everyone to learn it
[09:12] <mpt> I can understand that
[09:12] <mpt> baz is descended from tla, which was horrid
[09:13] <mpt> baz is a vast improvement for six months
[09:13] <mpt> bzr will be even simpler
[09:14] <mpt> I'm not saying everyone should stop working on the other docs, if they're used to SVN.
[09:14] <jeffsch> after breezy release, there will be lots of time. maybe we can go directly to bzr, whatever that is.
[09:15] <mpt> bzr is Bazaar 2.0
[09:15] <jeffsch> IMHO, we *should* stop working on other docs, and concentrate on UbuntuHelp
[09:15] <jeffsch> IMHO, it's the only doc we can get done in time for breezy anyway
[09:16] <jeffsch> if it's the only thing we all work on, we can do it
[09:16] <mpt> How finished are the others?
[09:16] <jeffsch> but not if we have to learn baz first
[09:16] <jjesse> just remember if we all work on UbuntuHelp we can't forget kubuntu
[09:16] <jjesse> but i agree w/ jeffsch i don't want to half to learn another program to finish something, put it in svn
[09:17] <mpt> ok, is there a document somewhere explaining docbook profiling really simply?
[09:17] <jjesse> hmm i have a link someplace, let me look
[09:19] <mpt> then we can have profiles for ubuntu, kubuntu, and edubuntu
[09:21] <Burgundavia> mdke, I think I figured it out. I don't think the deletion is showing up because I edited the page that day
[09:26] <mpt> *sigh*
[09:26] <mpt> I love how yelp crashes on XML errors
[09:29] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:41] <mdke> mpt, i will help out if you can get your doc in svn and work there
[10:58] <mdke> mpt, i reckon with a few of us working on it we could get it done quickly given the amount on material already available in the faqguide, userguide and other documents
[11:06] <mgalvin> what is the point then of having a faq guide if some other guide is just going to take that info and put it some place else, it is just pure duplication and pointless to have the exact same content in 2 differenet docs in the same set of docs
[11:07] <mgalvin> anyway, gotta run
[11:08] <mdke> ouch
[11:09] <mdke> i think he has misunderstood a bit
[11:25] <mpt> mmm
[11:25] <mpt> I don't have the karma to order people around :-)