[04:29] <adkinsj>      /msg nickserv set hide email on  
[04:34] <adkinsj> hello?
[04:35] <crimsun> hi?
[04:35] <adkinsj> talkative bunch :)
[04:35] <crimsun> this is the meeting room; see the topic for the next meeting
[04:35] <crimsun> you probably want to be in #ubuntu
[04:35] <adkinsj> ahh hehe ty
[04:36] <crimsun> yw
[04:36] <adkinsj> leaving
[09:53] <robitaille> JaneW: your new topic is too long; the end part is truncated...
[09:53] <JaneW> robitaille: hmmm... I just added our meeting, which will be removed after 13:00 UTC.... 
[09:54] <JaneW> robitaille: should I put it back to the way it was?
[09:55] <robitaille> JaneW: leave it that way for now.  I'm sure someone will think to add back the end part of the CC meeting info after the Edubutu meeting
[09:55] <robitaille> too many meeting in this place....  :)
[09:56] <JaneW> yes, funny that hey
[09:58] <JaneW> ok that's it for now...
[09:59] <\sh> two meetings in two days...
[09:59] <\sh> I must be lonely
[12:08] <JaneW> hi john
[12:08] <JaneW> you are a little early though
[12:08] <JaneW> it's 12:00 UTC, so 14:00 our time 
[12:09] <JaneW> JOhn you are UK time though right?
[12:09] <JaneW> I think that's 13:00 your time
[12:09] <Treenaks> "2 hours from now"
[12:09] <Treenaks> - 9 minutes
[12:10] <jingl3> Yes, I was just thinking... never know when to add or subtract! See you later!
[12:11] <JaneW> Treenaks, that's a much better way of putting it, thank-you :)
[12:11] <Treenaks> JaneW: np :)
[01:33] <jelkner> JaneW: good moring! this is the place for the edubuntu meeting, yes?
[01:33] <JaneW> jelkner: morning :) yes, 27 minutes and counting
[01:33] <JaneW> jelkner: you're early
[01:33] <jelkner> i just didn't want to be late ;-)
[01:33] <JaneW> :)
[01:34] <JaneW> is 8am early in the states?
[01:34] <jelkner> in the summer time it is
[01:34] <JaneW> or just for flint?
[01:34] <jelkner> for me too
[01:34] <jelkner> not durning the school year
[01:35] <JaneW> I guess on vaccation it would be...
[01:35] <jelkner> indeed, those three months when teachers sleep in
[01:37] <jelkner> our first agenda item is the timeline, yes?
[01:38] <jelkner> i read the minutes from the last meeting, and i'm eager to know if we are still on target for those dates
[01:39] <JaneW> indeed so am I
[01:39] <jelkner> it's now or never time for planning free software day activities
[01:39] <jelkner> we wanted to do several edubuntu related events
[01:40] <jelkner> but i've been stalling to see if it would be possible
[01:40] <JaneW> we have some issues though which I need to discuss
[01:46] <JaneW> MEETING NOTICE: 15 minutes to our Edubuntu meeting in #ubuntu-devel
[01:46] <JaneW> correction #ubuntu-meeting
[01:46] <jelkner> opps, i thought i had to move
[01:57] <jelkner> JaneW: question - flint is trying to join us, but he says the name "flint" is banned.
[01:57] <jelkner> how can he fix this?
[01:57] <JaneW> dunno
[01:57] <JaneW> use another nick?
[01:57] <jsgotangco> yeah
[01:58] <jsgotangco> jelkner: hey long time no see/chat even
[01:59] <jelkner> jsgotango: and you would be whom?
[01:59] <highvoltage> ah yes, let's do the intro thing.
[01:59] <jelkner> jelkner is Jeff Elkner
[02:00] <jingl3> jingl3 is John Ingleby
[02:00] <ogra> <--- Oliver Grawert
[02:01] <knuty> knuty <--- Knut Yrvin
[02:02] <JaneW> ;)
[02:02] <highvoltage> hi knuty. saw you on the debconf video of mark's talk :)
[02:02] <ogra> highvoltage, you did ? 
[02:02] <JaneW> Hi all. Let's get started.
[02:02] <knuty> highvoltage: Yes
[02:02] <bskahan> Hi everyone
[02:02] <JaneW> Edubuntu Meeting starting,
[02:02] <ogra> knuty, oh i thought you were going for miss norway
[02:02] <highvoltage> ogra: yes, i did.
[02:03] <knuty> highvoltage: well I saw the video ;-)
[02:03] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:03] <JaneW> lol
[02:04] <knuty> JaneW: 8-)
[02:04] <JaneW> ok back on topic
[02:04] <jsgotangco> agenda?
[02:04] <ogra> jsgotangco, mail !
[02:04] <jsgotangco> gyah
[02:05] <JaneW> * Current status of the edubuntu distro - and a review of Oliver's  Development Roadmap (Milestones, ctivities and requirements  going forward to the release date). This could include requests for assistance from Oliver.
[02:05] <JaneW> jsgotangco: edit it!:P
[02:05] <ogra> http://edubuntu.org/EdubuntuOneDotZeroRoadmap
[02:05] <JaneW> oli can we point everyone to your wiki pages?
[02:05] <ogra> sure
[02:06] <ogra> they are a bit draftish, but surely for the public
[02:06] <JaneW> ok if you care to take a look at that it's a highlevel roadmap from here to the release date
[02:06] <jsgotangco> ahh august 11
[02:06] <jelkner> milestone one says aug. 11
[02:06] <JaneW> that's next FRIDAY
[02:06] <jelkner> are we still on for that?
[02:06] <JaneW> yes
[02:06] <ogra> i hope we have a working install CD by aug 11
[02:07] <jsgotangco> nice
[02:07] <ogra> ubuntus X is still not installable
[02:07] <JaneW> ogra: can you give us a few sentences of where you are at with the development please?
[02:07] <jelkner> i thought breezy was still broken?
[02:07] <JaneW> jsgotangco: oi that's my job!
[02:07] <ogra> i have made an upgrade yesterday and it took me half the day to get a working X agaiun... :(
[02:07] <ogra> JaneW, sure
[02:08] <JaneW> how is Breezy looking atm, ito build status?
[02:08] <ogra> the server package is nearly done, all seeds are sorted (seeds are the base for metapackages like edubuntu-server/-desktop)
[02:08] <sivang> hi ogra 
[02:08] <ogra> i'm lagging with the main inclusion reports... (i suck at buerocracy)
[02:09] <JaneW> ogra: can someone help you with that?
[02:09] <ogra> the edubuntu-desktop package sits still in universe as long as mnot all reports are approved... 
[02:09] <ogra> JaneW, sure... Burgundavia already wanted to do them.... 
[02:09] <ogra> but we still have a lot of them...
[02:09] <JaneW> cool, let him!
[02:10] <ogra> another odd thing is the mediawiki package....
[02:10] <JaneW> he;s not here now... too early for him I think
[02:10] <JaneW> yes
[02:10] <jsgotangco> thats strange her barely sleeps :)
[02:10] <ogra> debian asked me to not include my quick made hackish package but to use theirs... the problem is that not much development is going on there
[02:11] <ogra> they are still discussing basics and i fear thy wont have it ready in time
[02:12] <ogra> a third thing is that gcompris obviously doesnt compile with our compiler... gcompris is a hell of a package and takes time to fix (43MB source)
[02:13] <ogra> now to the positive stuff
[02:13] <jsgotangco> it even has svgalib
[02:13] <ogra> we have a classroom control tool now... its over 60% done....
[02:13] <JaneW> wait
[02:13] <JaneW> how serious are these issues?
[02:14] <JaneW> can we live with them being broken and not included (worst case scenario?)
[02:14] <ogra> i had the choice to either rewrite the backend for TeacherTool to work with our LTSPO implementation or to do something from scratch
[02:14] <ogra> i decided for the latter...
[02:14] <ogra> JaneW, gcompris is essential ...
[02:15] <ogra> mediawiki *can* be replaced by moin, but we committed otherwise....
[02:15] <highvoltage> LTSPO?
[02:15] <JaneW> nod
[02:15] <ogra> my package would work, but i doubt its upgradeable wit the otally differen built debian package we'll have in the next release
[02:16] <ogra> highvoltage, -O indeed
[02:16] <ogra> so i'd like to see these two packages in....
[02:17] <jsgotangco> gcompris not in edubuntu would be a shame since a lot of people like it
[02:17] <ogra> another thing is that pitti doesnt want to support php4 
[02:17] <jsgotangco> especially for early education
[02:18] <ogra> in no case...
[02:18] <highvoltage> geez
[02:18] <ogra> all the packages we use are built for php4, but breezy is planned to have php5 (wich entered the disto yesterday or so)
[02:19] <ogra> so i have to rebuild all php based packages and test them again php5... mediawiki is known to have issues...
[02:19] <jelkner> and moodle?
[02:19] <ogra> (besides the two weekly securiy updates you need anyway to keep it half way secure)
[02:20] <flint> orga, one way to keep it secure is to front end it with a secure web application
[02:20] <ogra> moodle *should* work with php5 i havent seen negative reports yet, but as i said, php5 wasnt available before beginning of the week)
[02:20] <ogra> flint, haha....
[02:20] <flint> sorry ogra not orga can't type
[02:21] <ogra> flint, you mean a frontend to the frontend ?
[02:21] <flint> No, (as they say) seriously folks why not put schootool in front of it?
[02:21] <flint> The only way to get to moodle is through schooltool (in this fantasy)
[02:21] <ogra> flint, we have schooltool in parallel
[02:22] <ogra> (the only server app tha doesnt cause headaches for me currently)
[02:22] <flint> how hard would series be?  (just asking)
[02:22] <flint> I know, I like schooltool!
[02:22] <ogra> and i'd like to keep moodle open for custiomization by the teacher
[02:23] <ogra> as well as mdiawiki...
[02:23] <ogra> media even
[02:23] <flint> gotcha.
[02:23] <highvoltage> ogra: is that the same keyboard you use for coding?
[02:23] <ogra> highvoltage, mostly, yes... but vim has a great highlighting ;)
[02:24] <jelkner> the big question for me is: can we go ahead with our free software day plans?
[02:24] <ogra> jelkner, free software day plans ??
[02:25] <jelkner> in other words, will it be possible to install a usable edubuntu server by sept 10
[02:25] <flint> or... to put it another way, how do I get my own ubuntu toaster?
[02:25] <jelkner> we have a few projects in the works waiting for edubuntu
[02:25] <ogra> jelkner, see the roadmap... i'm plannung to match the milestones ;)
[02:25] <flint> my question is what happened to Johnathan and Hilton's iso...
[02:25] <jelkner> then it looks good
[02:26] <jelkner> ogra: but you are depending on breezy work
[02:26] <highvoltage> flint: our iso's aren't usable
[02:26] <ogra> the essential part where i need most help will be the testing over the next month
[02:26] <jelkner> which isn't even usable yet
[02:26] <highvoltage> or let me put it this way, it's really not ready for wide-spread use.
[02:26] <jelkner> we are ready willing and eager to test
[02:26] <ogra> jelkner, yes, thats the prob... the X transition took extensively longer then planned
[02:26] <JaneW> lagging, but hangon guys, let's finish getting thing developed first...
[02:26] <highvoltage> flint: and it's Jonathan, not Johnathan, btw ;)
[02:27] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:27] <flint> to quote the man "release early and often" Jonathan
[02:27] <JaneW> ogra: where you finished with your update?
[02:27] <ogra> jelkner, the php5 decision is still pending and php5 isnt widely tested yet...
[02:27] <JaneW> I was trying to distill the salient part out to record
[02:27] <ogra> JaneW, i think so
[02:28] <JaneW> ogra: do you need any further help right now?
[02:28] <flint> sorry about the misspellings, it is a gift part of FITS
[02:28] <JaneW> ogra: and will you contact Corey for your inclusion reports?
[02:28] <ogra> JaneW, the report stuff would be a good candidate
[02:28] <JaneW> flint: I am typo queen!
[02:28] <JaneW> ogra: will you speak to corey or should I?
[02:29] <ogra> as you like... i'm around anyway... so who sees him first :)
[02:29] <JaneW> ogra: does the php thing cause you a lot of extra work?
[02:29] <JaneW> ogra: ok, let;s both nag him, I seem to be good at annoying ppl today....
[02:29] <ogra> JaneW, sure... but keeping both would be the oddest we could do...
[02:30] <ogra> there has to be a decision... php is the worst stuff we have... and we need the most appropriate solution to be able to support it
[02:30] <JaneW> ogra: what are you going to do about gcompris?
[02:30] <flint> Jeff is concerned because our targets in DC are the Regional Public School Libraries 
[02:30] <ogra> JaneW, contacting upstream...
[02:31] <ogra> flint, can you elaborate... 
[02:31] <JaneW> ogra: what would happen if it can;t get fixed? Do we still have a product?
[02:31] <ogra> JaneW, seed change (rip out gcompris) ....
[02:31] <ogra> JaneW, but gcompris is essential, we cant drop it...
[02:32] <JaneW> ogra: so this is a biggie, by when must it be fixed, at the latest?
[02:32] <JaneW> ogra: and is there anyone I can nag?
[02:32] <flint> ogra, It has to do with proxying moodle through the Zope3 schooltool application.  It is just an idea at this time...
[02:32] <jelkner> ogra: what is the status of child's play?
[02:33] <ogra> it should be ready for M1 but during M1-2 shoudl also be sufficient
[02:33] <ogra> jelkner, is that a complete replacemet ? i would rather see it as add on
[02:34] <ogra> flint, that doesnt solve my php problem... its just another webserver in fron then
[02:34] <jelkner> they are different, so it is an add-on, but they are aimed at similar target users
[02:34] <ogra> jelkner, so you mean childsplay as a fallback for the worst case scenarion ?
[02:34] <jelkner> gcompris is more mature, but child's play is written in Python
[02:34] <ogra> -n
[02:34] <flint> you are correct.  it merely "solves" the issues of security...
[02:35] <ogra> flint, my current problem is to find out if it works with php5 at all... we had no php5 packages until beginning of this week... and we wont support 4 and 5
[02:36] <JaneW> jelkner: do you think it's a feasible plan b?
[02:36] <jelkner> i'm not in a position to know
[02:36] <jelkner> i could use either, but i'm starting with new installations
[02:36] <ogra> JaneW, feasable no, but calming down the rage of our users :)
[02:36] <jelkner> we may have folks who already use gcompris
[02:36] <jelkner> and who would be upset without it
[02:37] <ogra> there are a lot shool projects that write extensions for gcompris....
[02:37] <JaneW> ogra: ok worst case scenario, but certainly not preferable
[02:37] <ogra> they wouldnt have a base... i think dropping gcompris is out of discussion
[02:37] <highvoltage> ogra: we use mediawiki and moodle with php5 in tuxlabs at the moment
[02:38] <ogra> highvoltage, but not the debian packages... i'm bound to them :(
[02:38] <highvoltage> ah, of course.
[02:38] <JaneW> ogra: do we have to escalate this issue to mdz?
[02:38] <flint> ogra, I see the problem now as a functional issue, beyond security.
[02:38] <JaneW> ogra: seem to be jeopardising us quite heavily
[02:38] <ogra> JaneW, gcompris ? he knows about it
[02:39] <flint> got my vote!
[02:39] <JaneW> ok shall we move on, that was item 1 - 40 minutes
[02:39] <JaneW> or is there more to discuss?
[02:39] <ogra> yep
[02:40] <ogra> we have a mailing list ... and we'll have more meetings
[02:40] <JaneW> ogra: wise words
[02:40] <JaneW> * Testing requirements, as per Olivers testing Plan.
[02:40] <ogra> (nothing more to discuss now imho)
[02:40] <JaneW> http://edubuntu.org/EdubuntuTestingPlan
[02:40] <ogra> thats a draft, i'll drop it into the ML tfor further discussion
[02:40] <JaneW> oliver will call for testers when the time comes
[02:41] <ogra> after aug 11th ;)
[02:41] <jelkner> but not long after, i hope ;-)
[02:41] <JaneW> ok
[02:41] <ogra> or better: testig can start from aug 11th
[02:41] <JaneW> * Documentation current status, and requirements to completion by release date, wrt ubuntu documentation and the cookbook.
[02:41] <jelkner> that sounds good
[02:41] <JaneW> jsgotangco: you're up
[02:41] <jsgotangco> oh
[02:42] <jsgotangco> what is there to write when there is no working system heh
[02:42] <jsgotangco> seriously though, tuxlabs cookbook
[02:42] <JaneW> *sulk*
[02:42] <flint> harsh jane, very harsh...
[02:42] <jsgotangco> JaneW: source?
[02:42] <JaneW> highvoltage: did you get anything from Jean yet?
[02:43] <highvoltage> JaneW: no, he's in a part of Nairobi now where he doesn't have e-mail access.
[02:43] <JaneW> jsgotangco: yes, waiting on that
[02:43] <jsgotangco> if there is none, i might decide on writing one from scratch *doh*
[02:43] <JaneW> highvoltage: does someone else have a copy of it?
[02:44] <JaneW> jsgotangco: can it not be scrapped?
[02:44] <jsgotangco> no way
[02:44] <jsgotangco> we'll find a way
[02:44] <JaneW> sigh
[02:44] <highvoltage> JaneW: i think we might have sent the publishers the source, i'll find out. i think they might have gotten it directly from jean, but they might have it still...
[02:44] <jsgotangco> i want the cookbook
[02:44] <ogra> grep the online version
[02:44] <ogra> grab
[02:44] <jsgotangco> yeah
[02:44] <JaneW> I can cut and paste into a doc for you ;P
[02:44] <jsgotangco> lol
[02:44] <jsgotangco> sure that would work short term
[02:44] <mhz> ogra, Will TuxLabs be the 1st version of Edubuntu Documentation?
[02:45] <JaneW> ok, let's just focus on short term for now?
[02:45] <jsgotangco> JaneW: sure that's workable
[02:45] <flint> where is the online tuxlab cookbook?  (for the record...) 
[02:45] <ogra> mhz, it will be a add on... but we'll need specific docs too...
[02:45] <JaneW> any progress is good right now IMO
[02:45] <jsgotangco> i'll start just to keep things rolling and not to make it to complicated to lessen the barrier for volunteers
[02:45] <mhz> ogra, but if translations are done... will we take Cookbook?
[02:45] <JaneW> jsgotangco: just keep nagging highvoltage to get the source though, he likes that ;)
[02:46] <mhz> ogra, (tuxlabs, I meant)
[02:46] <jsgotangco> JaneW: i have chains if you have your whip, i'll try that thanks
[02:46] <knuty> flint: http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za/courses/web-tuxlabs.html
[02:46] <JaneW> http://www.upfrontsystems.co.za/Members/jean/cookbook/docbook/cookbook.html
[02:46] <flint> sweet!!!
[02:46] <ogra> mhz, the cookbook is very coommon and a great source for the basice... but the specifics have to be adressed elsewhere
[02:46] <ogra> basics
[02:46] <mhz> ogra, ok
[02:46] <ogra> mhz, i.e. our LTSP works quite different...
[02:47] <JaneW> jsgotangco: so is that it for now, ITO documentation?
[02:47] <jsgotangco> JaneW: yup guess so, no usable system, no reason to discuss further
[02:47] <mhz> ogra, I'll be working on a MoinMoin wiki CookBook, so I can start from TuxLabs and then??
[02:47] <JaneW> ok agreed
[02:47] <ogra> mhz, we committed to mediawiki...
[02:47] <mhz> oh
[02:48] <JaneW>  * Art work, what's done, what still needs to be done, and by  whom. 
[02:48] <ogra> as per user requirement
[02:48] <JaneW> last time we discussed the following:
[02:48] <JaneW> 1. the folder icon, 
[02:48] <JaneW>  2. wallpaper, 
[02:48] <JaneW>  3. splash screen...
[02:48] <JaneW>  4. gdm theme
[02:48] <JaneW>  5. Jonathan to create a flying penguins edubuntu 'please wait' screen.
[02:48] <JaneW>  6. CD Cover & CD label
[02:48] <JaneW>  7. Edubuntu web site artwork
[02:48] <flint> orga makes a crucial point.  The mdz version LTSP will not match the docs 
[02:48] <JaneW> highvoltage: did the first verions of item 5.
[02:48] <highvoltage> on #1, ogra and i looked at some folder icons.
[02:48] <ogra> highvoltage and me talked about the icon theme stuff...
[02:48] <knuty> ogra: cookbook ... specifics elsewhere: That's why we made this book: http://developer.skolelinux.no/dokumentasjon/newdriftbok/
[02:48] <highvoltage> there's a bit too much to replace, so we'll defer it to the next version.
[02:49] <ogra> yeah
[02:49] <ogra> tons of folder icons to redraw... so too much for now
[02:49] <JaneW> highvoltage: you mean the folder icon stays?
[02:49] <highvoltage> who's tasked to do #2, #3 and #4?
[02:50] <highvoltage> JaneW: yep. is that a problem for you?
[02:50] <ogra> knuty, 80% of the stuff covered there i'd love to have automated and not to poke the user with it :)
[02:51] <ogra> knuty, but its a great source ... we'll include a package as add on if you have one...
[02:51] <JaneW> highvoltage: no, I was just clarifying, making notes.
[02:51] <ogra> knuty, err, whats coyote linux ?
[02:51] <highvoltage> ok
[02:51] <flint> coyote linux is a router, nat firewall on a floppy disk
[02:51] <JaneW> items 2, 3,4,6,7 still need owners...
[02:51] <JaneW> the next person to comment gets them!
[02:51] <ogra> ah
[02:52] <JaneW> not YOU!
[02:52] <JaneW> :P
[02:52] <ogra> :p
[02:52] <highvoltage> blah
[02:52] <JaneW> lol
[02:52] <highvoltage> i like doing theming.
[02:52] <knuty> ogra: You cant automate the flash installation ... or handling the LDAP.diff-s in a sane way ... Because thats the only thing people do after installing the system :-)
[02:52] <JaneW> ogra really wants to do everything
[02:52] <ogra> JaneW, naaah
[02:52] <highvoltage> ah yes, it's a curse.
[02:52] <ogra> knuty, no LDAP in our first release
[02:52] <highvoltage> i think ogra and i suffer it both.
[02:53] <JaneW> so who has artistic flair, apptitude and wants to do some cool stuff for us?
[02:53] <teolemon> i can do some translations and websitework if you need some
[02:53] <ogra> knuty, a standalone server doesnt need one :)
[02:53] <knuty> orga: coyote is firewall. There are a lot of different networks out there.
[02:53] <teolemon> an very basic graphic work
[02:53] <teolemon> and
[02:53] <highvoltage> i have aptitude, it doesn't have super cow powers though :(
[02:53] <flint> I volunteer elkner to do #4, the theme!
[02:53] <ogra> knuty, right...
[02:53] <knuty> orga: I know that you dont have LDAP. Our book deskribes the things you have to do when operating and upkeeping the system
[02:54] <knuty> orga: after the installation
[02:54] <mhz> JaneW, why not asking for volunteers in the ML ?
[02:54] <JaneW> pok we need to work on getting artwork drummed up
[02:54] <ogra> knuty, i'd like to have that automated for our next version... just asking 1-2 questions
[02:54] <JaneW> who ever can do something please try, and we'll take it from there
[02:54] <JaneW> mhz: yes I think so
[02:54] <flint> part of the linux router project (www.coyotelinux.com/)
[02:55] <highvoltage> good suggestion.
[02:55] <jsgotangco> erm
[02:55] <JaneW> highvoltage: any chance you can out a nice upbeat soliciting message together?
[02:55] <knuty> orga: to make a debconf-net-install-solution is good
[02:55] <JaneW> s/out/put
[02:55] <highvoltage> JaneW: task me on it
[02:55] <JaneW> cool thanks
[02:56] <JaneW> we have an issue re CDs and printed material
[02:56] <mhz> what issue?
[02:56] <JaneW> on Fri I said it was happening and now it may not be.
[02:56] <mhz> oh
[02:56] <JaneW> I am still trying to get clarity though...
[02:56] <flint> jane, what format does te CD and printed material need to arrive in?
[02:57] <ogra> knuty, i thin about some kind of automated clustering of the servers to work together and share free ressources, but thats all breezy+1 and i have to focus on breezy
[02:57] <mhz> ogra, I'd love to see that clustering working !
[02:57] <ogra> :)
[02:58] <mhz> lol
[02:58] <knuty> orga: I know :-). That's why i pointed out what we have to do to maintain the system after the installation - and this experiences could be taken into consideraton on 1.0+1
[02:59] <ogra> knuty, yep... but i dont even demote any brain cells to brezy+1 yet ;)
[02:59] <flint> ogra...the ibm Z-900 version would be nice :^)
[02:59] <ogra> flint, send me one for testing *g*
[03:00] <JaneW> our time is almost up, any final issues/comments?
[03:00] <flint> note that I have patience and will wait for the fulfillment of a single box versioin...
[03:00] <jsgotangco> hey guys, i have to go, its already 9pm and i still have some issues to settle here at home seems like a nice meeting though
[03:00] <teolemon> Jane,why don't you like the current folder icon ?
[03:00] <ogra> teolemon, it doesnt look lke folder
[03:00] <ogra> else its fine...
[03:00] <jelkner> jsgotangco: see you later, Jerome!
[03:00] <ogra> (colors lining etc)
[03:00] <flint> jane still has numbers without names next to them,  I know how much she likes these columns of numbers and names.....
[03:00] <teolemon> ah ok
[03:00] <JaneW> teolemon: I haven;t even seen it...
[03:00] <JaneW> bye jsgotangco 
[03:01] <highvoltage> ogra: perhaps it looks like a folder to kids?
[03:01] <teolemon> i'm a 18 year ol
[03:01] <ogra> highvoltage, thats my big hope ;)
[03:01] <highvoltage> ogra: i think you're just to old to appreciate it :)
[03:01] <teolemon> not a kid anymore :-(
[03:01] <JaneW> if I have no volunteers I select names at random
[03:01] <ogra> highvoltage, no need to duck, youre right, i'm an old fart :)
[03:01] <teolemon> highvoltage yes that's it :-P
[03:01] <JaneW> highvoltage: hey watch out!
[03:02] <teolemon> you need someone to try to do some new icons ?
[03:02] <teolemon> may i give it a try ?
[03:02] <highvoltage> teolemon: by all means.
[03:02] <JaneW> ok let's leave ogra to get on with it
[03:02] <JaneW> ogra: please shout if you need ANYTHING
[03:02] <ogra> absolutely
[03:03] <JaneW> else keep the discussion going in #edubuntu and on the ML... the countdown has begun.
[03:03] <mhz> JaneW, my only flairs so far are related to documenting and Translating, as well as admining MoinMoin and testing apps for education
[03:03] <JaneW> thanks everyone
[03:03] <ogra> and you all please kick my butt if yu miss anything ;)
[03:03] <highvoltage> teolemon: add your icons here: http://www.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuIcons
[03:03] <teolemon> ok
[03:03] <JaneW> mhz: great, chat to jsgotangco, he will co-ordinate that side
[03:03] <mhz> okidoki
[03:04] <ogra> mhz, we might fall back to moin if mediawiki turns out to not work as we need...
[03:04] <mhz> you will get back, I know
[03:04] <ogra> mhz, but the target is to make it work...
[03:04] <teolemon> http://art.gnome.org/images/thumbnails/icon/ICON-dlg-etiquette-Shot.png
[03:04] <mhz> please do because Mediawiki will not do for an international syncronization of servers
[03:04] <teolemon> is that the kind of thing you're looking for ?
[03:04] <JaneW> just changing the topic back... 
[03:05] <teolemon> Gartoonish and more folder like
[03:05] <ogra> JaneW, any date fo next meeting ? 
[03:05] <JaneW> ogra: what do you think? Friday?
[03:05] <mhz> what if they were every wenesday?
[03:05] <ogra> all 3 days ? 
[03:05] <JaneW> I am away Mon & Tues, so alternately next wed
[03:05] <JaneW> ?
[03:05] <ogra> thats heavy
[03:05] <JaneW> wed is good
[03:05] <ogra> yes
[03:05] <jelkner> wed is good
[03:06] <mhz> but could it be Every Wednesday? (default)
[03:06] <jelkner> regular time and day is easier to plan for
[03:06] <ogra> once a week... and going down to two weeks if thigs are more settled
[03:06] <JaneW> ok, wed 10th same time?
[03:06] <mhz> cool
[03:06] <jelkner> great
[03:06] <JaneW> ack, I thought 11 Aug was a Fri, it's Thurs!!!
[03:06] <highvoltage> great
[03:06] <ogra> probably rotating the time for other timezones
[03:06] <mhz> LOL
[03:07] <jelkner> so, next wed at 12 UTC?
[03:07] <mhz> but I can suffer from less sleeping once a week
[03:07] <flint> no, keep it in the early morning edt...i love getting up early!
[03:07] <JaneW> yes, it's on the wiki
[03:07] <jelkner> flint: that *is* early, paul
[03:07] <highvoltage> flint: you are a morning person!? I would have never guessed :)
[03:07] <jelkner> 8 am our time
[03:07] <ogra> highvoltage, lol
[03:07] <mhz> JaneW, Moin has a plugin called Calendar :)
[03:07] <JaneW> it's 9pm for jerome, so we can;t shift it much firther that way...
[03:08] <ogra> highvoltage, he works in serious offices... that requires ealry birds ;)
[03:08] <highvoltage> ah
[03:08] <JaneW> ok I must go, I will try to get a summary out later.
[03:08] <jelkner> bye jane
[03:08] <flint> i lie 
[03:08] <teolemon> bye
[03:08] <highvoltage> JaneW: i'm quite reliant on that, i haven't made notes for myself
[03:08] <ogra> JaneW, Burgundavia will never be able to attend... and we'd have to get mdz out of bed early if we dont rotate...
[03:08] <JaneW> tut tut
[03:09] <philipp> bye
[03:09] <ogra> (assuming he wants to attend)
[03:09] <highvoltage> philipp: bye
[03:09] <JaneW> ogra: hmm, we'll have to do something with them. 
[03:09] <philipp> highvoltage: hi!
[03:09] <philipp> :-P
[03:09] <JaneW> hi and bye phillip
[03:09] <highvoltage> hi philipp 
[03:09] <ogra> JaneW, yep... if the want to attend ...
[03:10] <ogra> mhz, X is uninstallable currently... its a PITA
[03:10] <philipp> highvoltage: sorry I missed the start of the meeting, what's the situation with the website?
[03:10] <mhz> ogra, yes, I thought so
[03:10] <ogra> jbailey, hey... [linesca]  already asked me about you
[03:11] <philipp> highvoltage: are we sticking with the wiki for now?
[03:11] <highvoltage> philipp: JaneW and I are going to make an alternative plan with the hosting.
[03:11] <philipp> ok...
[03:11] <jbailey> ogra: Did I miss him? =(
[03:11] <jelkner> cya next week everyone...
[03:11] <ogra> jbailey, nope... he hangs around in #edubuntu
[03:11] <jbailey> Ah, I had missed the [] 's n the /whois.  Thanks!
[03:12] <ogra> :)
[03:12] <knuty> ogra: What's about the LTSP-issue?
[03:12] <ogra> jbailey, he has new HW to test ;)
[03:12] <ogra> knuty, ?? what should be about it ...
[03:12] <teolemon> just a question: are there any plans to recreate the ubuntu logo with children
[03:12] <mhz> ogra, When I meant my vote is for MoinMoin is basically because I have been working for 1 month on project (LatinAmerican) called WikiLearn (soon to be released next 2 weeks). So far, the only wiki that has proved to be the right one, is MoinMoin
[03:13] <jbailey> ogra: Cool. =)
[03:13] <knuty> ogra: It says:  Fix LTSP login manager at the OneDotZeroRoadmap
[03:13] <ogra> mhz, nearly all teachers we had at the summit were only familiar with mediawiki...
[03:13] <mhz> yes
[03:13] <teolemon> DokuWiki?
[03:13] <teolemon> that's the one we use on the French community
[03:13] <ogra> knuty, yes, ldm currently looks quite odd... i have the new design ready, but didnt wave it in the code yet
[03:13] <teolemon> wiki.ubuntu-fr.org
[03:14] <mhz> ogra, but that doesn mean is the right one for educational purposes. Nearly ALL Chilean teachers are only familiar with Microsoft products :)
[03:14] <knuty> ogra: ok :-)
[03:14] <ogra> mhz, but they shouted they want it includd, so we folowed the demand
[03:14] <mhz> ok, I understand that.
[03:14] <ogra> hmm... add some l's and e' at appropriate places
[03:15] <mhz> :)
[03:15] <philipp> highvoltage: feel free to ping me for help with the website anytime, once you got the server sorted out...
[03:16] <highvoltage> philipp: thanks
[03:16] <ogra> the applist is not very much arguable at the moment, we can change everything for breezy+1 but for now the target is rather sabilization of the current selection
[03:16] <highvoltage> philipp: i haven't forgotten about you :)
[03:16] <mhz> then, I will have to prove WikiLearn needs Edubuntu and Edubuntu will benifit from WikiLearn. It's a pity Moin is not GUI flavoured yet.
[03:17] <philipp> highvoltage: glad your short term memory is intact! :-)
[03:17] <ogra> mhz, moin is available, as all the other 17000 ubuntu packages... its just not in the default install
[03:17] <ogra> its only one apt-get away :)
[03:18] <teolemon> i second that,a good explanation on the doc with the main pros and cons for each
[03:18] <teolemon> in
[03:18] <teolemon> the doc
[03:19] <mhz> ogra, unfortunatelly... last time I checked, APT was not as good as untaring
[03:19] <mhz> (the moin.deb I mean)
[03:20] <ogra> mhz, from the debian or ubuntu repository ? or a foreign packaged ne ?
[03:20] <ogra> one even
[03:20] <mhz> from Debian reps.
[03:20] <ogra> what was the problem ?
[03:21] <mhz> and from Ubuntu one (1.5 months ago)
[03:21] <ogra> it normally should leave you with a basic default setup that you can easily customize 
[03:21] <mhz> official installation instructions were not 100% applicable for .deb
[03:22] <ogra> at least thats what debian packages normally do
[03:22] <mhz> so users tend to get lost
[03:22] <mhz> and some of them who were clever enough, step by #moin (where we helped them)
[03:24] <mhz> ogra, one thing I am getting lost now here is: Mediawiki will be included in Edubuntu, but will that mean Ubuntu websites will no longer be Moin, too?
[03:24] <ogra> nah
[03:24] <ogra> we love moin....
[03:24] <mdke> moin <3
[03:25] <ogra> i wouldnt even go near mediawiki if there were no user demand.... i *hate* php and its insecuritys
[03:25] <mhz> :D
[03:25] <Seveas> and mediawiki is quite a terrible wiki too :)
[03:25] <mhz> too? LOL
[03:25] <ogra> but the base for wikipedia...
[03:26] <mhz> ogra, have you ever tested MoinPedia?
[03:26] <ogra> which was the main concern....
[03:26] <Treenaks> Seveas: it's better than it used to be
[03:26] <ogra> mhz, nope
[03:26] <mhz> Alexander (#moin) did that just for fun
[03:27] <mhz> took all DB from Wikipedia and used it as MoinMoin /data
[03:27] <ogra> grea
[03:27] <ogra> t
[03:28] <teolemon> i'd be temptated to say that php security on school networks isn't that important.You would need really gifted students or really twisted people wanting to target schools
[03:28] <ogra> but lets rather move tha conversation to #edubuntu adn make the channel free for other meetings
[03:28] <teolemon> but i'm perhaps heavily mistaking
[03:28] <mhz> anyways, I need Ubuntu (at leat Edubuntu site) to stay with Moin because, WikiLearn will only be opossible to exist with MoinMoin (so far). And so, after people (users of WikiLearn) get used to Moin, they will also be ready to contribute to Edubuntu
[03:28] <teolemon> ok
[03:28] <mhz> ok
[03:29] <mhz> see you there
[03:29] <ogra> teolemon, some write their tests online.... dont underestimate the hacker skills of teenagers
[03:51] <flint> I am trying to work up a plan for 10 September with elkner... I am going to go bother him about it.  
[03:52] <ogra> flint, /join #edubuntu ;)
[03:54] <flint> ok, I have caused enough trouble here...
[07:33] <sivang> it is going to be a MOTU meeting soon?
[07:34] <carlos> pitti, doko: Hi
[07:34] <doko> hi
[07:34] <robitaille> sivang:  22:00 UTC
[07:34] <pitti> hi
[07:35] <pitti> carlos: so you wnat to talk about OO.o l10n?
[07:35] <carlos> so, Firefox and OO.org integration...
[07:35] <carlos> doko, pitti, Mark wants those language packs as a priority now
[07:36] <carlos> so I we are defining an spec of all steps we should follow to get it done
[07:36] <carlos> a kind of step by step guide
[07:36] <pitti> carlos: you mean updating oo.o/ffox langpacks with rosetta data?
[07:36] <carlos> with the name who will do it 
[07:36] <carlos> pitti, importing it into Rosetta and then update them from Rosetta, yes
[07:37] <pitti> (I hope you don't mean changing ffox/oo.o to use gettext)
[07:37] <carlos> pitti, no way ;-)
[07:37] <pitti> so 1) we should package the tools to convert oo.o/ffox translations to gettext and 2) call them in debian/rules?
[07:37] <carlos> Mark wants that the import into Rosetta and the export from Rosetta is done the same way we do it for the other language packs
[07:38] <carlos> pitti, right
[07:38] <carlos> I think there are already .deb packages available from Debian, doko?
[07:38] <pitti> well, the import side is possible with that
[07:38] <pitti> but not the export
[07:38] <pitti> since langpack-o-matic can't build ffox locale packs
[07:38] <doko> carlos: yes, pootle is in the archive
[07:39] <carlos> pitti, well, the idea is to extend it so you can generate .mo files, firefox's language packs or oo.org language packs
[07:39] <pitti> instead, there should be a new debian/rules target to pull updates from rosetta (in the locale packs for ffox/ooo)
[07:39] <carlos> doko, cool
[07:39] <doko> carlos: still the problem how to split/concatenate these into manageable chunkgs
[07:40] <pitti> carlos: *cough*
[07:40] <carlos> doko, Mark said that the idea of having one .pot file per directory is good. He agrees that 250 files are too much and only one is too big
[07:40] <carlos> doko, it's a problem to solve as part of our step by step guide
[07:41] <carlos> pitti, so you want that the deb build fetches files from Rosetta?
[07:41] <doko> ok, then I'll patch the translate-toolkit and write these files to somewhere
[07:41] <pitti> carlos: not always, but if you call "debian/rules rosetta-update" or whatever
[07:42] <carlos> doko, the idea is to create, for instance, a po/ directory and store there the .pot and .po files, martin's script will take care to move them into Rosetta
[07:42] <carlos> doko, like the other packages do it
[07:42] <pitti> ^ yes, that's what I tought for import
[07:42] <pitti> in principle, this should be possible for both ooo and ffox
[07:42] <doko> carlos: you need to keep the sdf file
[07:43] <carlos> pitti, hmm, we don't have a direct download features, so that would be a problem
[07:43] <carlos> doko, yeah, that's another thing to talk about
[07:43] <carlos> doko, we are not going to store that .sdf file into rosetta so we should decide a place that will be available on build time
[07:43] <pitti> carlos: where's the difference whether debian/rules or langpack-o-matic grabs the translations?
[07:44] <doko> it's fine for me to generate these directories
[07:44] <carlos> pitti, well, atm we will send you an email with a link to the language pack
[07:44] <carlos> pitti, so it depends on the way you want to implement it
[07:44] <carlos> pitti, I'm not 100% sure Mark will be happy to handle that in a different way, but If you think it's too hard to do it, I think we could convince him
[07:45] <carlos> ok, lets write a list of steps to follow that we need to do to get language packs done
[07:45] <pitti> carlos: sure, and I can just take the ffox translations out of it and feed it to debian/rules somehow
[07:45] <pitti> carlos: alternatively, I can create a "wrapper" that apt-get sources the locale packs, and updates them from the rosetta tarball
[07:46] <pitti> carlos: it just doesn't fit into the current langpack-o-matic
[07:46] <carlos> ok
[07:46] <pitti> carlos: but of course I can write a mozlangpack-o-matic and an ooolangpack-o-matic :-)
[07:46] <doko> pitti: yes please :-)
[07:46] <pitti> just not throw it all into one huge script
[07:46] <carlos> First the easier one, Firefox (feel free to add any extra step I'm missing):
[07:47] <pitti> doko: erm, s/I can/can be done/ :-)
[07:47] <doko> :-(
[07:47] <carlos> 1.- Add an extra rule on build time to generate a .pot file and a set of .po files per language pack
[07:48] <pitti> ATM I don't even know how to translate back and forth mozilla stuff, but it seems to be possible
[07:48] <carlos> 2.- Current process will send them to Rosetta, Rosetta will import them and people will translate them
[07:48] <carlos> pitti, there are scripts that do that
[07:48] <pitti> carlos: s/language pack/mozilla-firefox-locale-all/?
[07:48] <carlos> what ever it's called, yes
[07:49] <pitti> erm, rather from firefox itself, not the locale packs
[07:49] <carlos> 3. Once per month, an email will be sent to martin? with the link to a tarball with all updates done to firefox (a set of .po files)
[07:49] <pitti> so far that's clear
[07:49] <pitti> carlos: btw, I tried "that script" the other day, and it plainly refused to work, but oh well...
[07:49] <doko> /usr/bin/moz2po
[07:49] <doko> /usr/bin/po2moz
[07:49] <doko> from pootle
[07:50] <pitti> doko: oh, cool
[07:50] <pitti> will try that
[07:50] <carlos> 4. an script will download that tarball and will regenerate a new mozilla-firefox-locale-all
[07:50] <carlos> Am I missing anything?
[07:51] <carlos> I think that's all needed for firefox, right?
[07:51] <carlos> doko, do we need anything other than the .po files to create the firefox language pack?
[07:51] <pitti> carlos: the trouble lies in details, but in general that's the plan, yes
[07:51] <doko> carlos: I don't know, never did look at the firefox translation stuff
[07:52] <carlos> pitti, we should have those details clear after this meeting
[07:52] <carlos> doko, ok
[07:52] <carlos> lets assume for now that the .po file is the only needed thing
[07:53] <carlos> I will try to investigate it a bit
[07:53] <carlos> pitti, which details do you think we should take into account?
[07:53] <doko> carlos, could you spec that a bit out? how the target is named, where the files should go, and so on
[07:54] <pitti> carlos: I mean all the crappy little bugs you encounter when actually doing this, nothing that would influence the general strategy
[07:54] <carlos> pitti, oh, so you talk about the usual problems will be raised while implementing it?
[07:54] <carlos> ok
[07:54] <carlos> doko, sure, that's the idea
[07:55] <carlos> doko, after the meeting I will write a spec with a step by step guide so we know everthing needed to do the implementation
[07:55] <carlos> if anything is missing, the spec should be updated
[07:55] <carlos> So I suppose we will need an extra meeting after that spec is ready
[07:56] <carlos> to add extra information to it
[07:56] <carlos> pitti, anyway, from the process I just talked about, I assume that the email with hte link to the language pack will be enough for your, right?
[07:57] <pitti> Yes, I guess so
[07:57] <carlos> s/language pack/firefox language pack/
[07:57] <carlos> ok
[07:57] <pitti> I actually have to try that out before I can talk about some details
[07:58] <carlos> pitti, the email will be quite similar to the one you get when you request an export from rosetta
[07:59] <carlos> pitti, and the content will be also similar, or do you want soemthing as complex as current language packs?
[08:00] <pitti> same structure woudl be fine for me
[08:00] <pitti> to tell apart ffox, tbird, moztilla, etc.
[08:01] <carlos> pitti, do all language packs for ffox, tbird and mozilla come from the same .deb source package?
[08:02] <pitti> carlos: no, in fact not, lemme explain:
[08:02] <pitti> carlos: in general, each translation for each package has _its own_ source package and deb
[08:02] <pitti> then, half a year ago most ffox translations were collected in mozilla-firefox-locale-all
[08:02] <pitti> but there are still some language-specific mozilla-firefox-locale-<lang> source packages
[08:03] <pitti> and all tbird/moz locale packages have their own source 
[08:03] <carlos> hmmm
[08:03] <carlos> that would be a problem
[08:03] <carlos> but the priority is firefox
[08:03] <carlos> and they seem to be doing the right thing (more or less)
[08:04] <carlos> so tbird and mozilla should be supported specially, just like KDE
[08:05] <carlos> pitti, the question is... do you prefer the same layout like current language packs where you have a directory per language and a .po file with the translation domain?
[08:05] <carlos> in this case the translation domain will be a name that will let you know if it's firefox, tbird or mozilla
[08:05] <carlos> as they don't use gettext and that name will not be used
[08:06] <carlos> pitti, the other option is a tarball with a file per language with the language code
[08:06] <pitti> carlos: yes, that will be fine
[08:06] <carlos> as the name
[08:06] <pitti> carlos: if you do separate tarballs anyway, then I don't mind the internal format 
[08:07] <pitti> carlos: OTOH, if you stuff ffox etc. translations into the main big rosetta output tarballs, then jsut stick to the format, so langpack-o-matic can sort them out easily
[08:08] <carlos> pitti, is up to you, if you say that using the big language pack tarball is ok for you
[08:08] <carlos> I prefer to do it that way
[08:08] <pitti> carlos: actually I don't see a reason why rosetta should generate a special tarball for mozilla stuff
[08:09] <carlos> so I don't need to implement an specific script to send you the firefox and oo.org translations
[08:09] <pitti> carlos: this keeps consistency in all levels but langpack-o-matic itself
[08:09] <pitti> carlos: yes, we just need to agree to special "fake" domains, like "mozilla-firefox", "mozilla-thunderbird", "mozilla"
[08:09] <carlos> ok, so they will be part of the main language pack tarball
[08:10] <pitti> carlos: in fact, these domains should be determined by the POT file name that is created by the respective source package
[08:11] <carlos> pitti, right
[08:11] <carlos> pitti, just tell me them now and I will add them to the spec
[08:11] <pitti> carlos: I'm fine with the proposals above
[08:12] <carlos> ok
[08:12] <doko> carlos: if you send pitti the translations, who does convert the translations back to sdf files?
[08:12] <pitti> oh, and "openoffice.org", and "openoffice.org2"?
[08:12] <doko> pitti: no OOo1
[08:12] <pitti> WFM
[08:12] <carlos> doko, talking about OO?
[08:12] <doko> yes
[08:12] <carlos> doko, we will cover them now, just a second to finish with Firefox
[08:13] <carlos> pitti, we should decide who will work on which parts of the process
[08:14] <pitti> first I'll try to export PO files in mozilla packages
[08:14] <pitti> but I have a huge pile of other stuff to do, so please don't expect it to be ready tomorrow :-/
[08:14] <carlos> pitti, doko, how is your agenda?
[08:14] <carlos> what would you do and what should I do or look for someone else to do?
[08:14] <pitti> carlos: crowded and a temporarily disabled right hand
[08:15] <carlos> ok
[08:15] <carlos> doko, and you?
[08:15] <pitti> carlos: if you have the time to actually write some small script which extracts ffox translations, I can easily incorporate it into the packages
[08:15] <pitti> if not, I'll find some time 
[08:16] <doko> carlos: ohh, low on time as well, but ... I can generate the sdf files, and then the po files. need to look at the concatenating of the files
[08:17] <doko> at merge time, I would expect a complete set of po files, and the old sdf files
[08:18] <carlos> pitti, doko all us are busy but I think I can rearrange my tasks a bit as my last release date just happened so I don't have the timeline you have
[08:18] <carlos> pitti, so I will take care of firefox conversion
[08:18] <pitti> cool
[08:18] <carlos> doko, if you would do that for oo that would be perfect
[08:18] <carlos> it's a bit more complex than firefox and I'm not sure I can catch with all your investigations
[08:19] <carlos> doko, anyway if you think you will not have time, tell me and I will try to manage that with daf
[08:19] <carlos> about the OO language packs
[08:19] <carlos> the procedure should be exactly the same as with firefox
[08:20] <carlos> doko, are all language packs inside the same source package?
[08:20] <doko> ok, if daf can work on the file splitting/merging, that would be nice. I'm away tomorrow, and Friday half day
[08:20] <carlos> doko, daf feels sick this week and I'm on a non coding week writting specs
[08:20] <doko> carlos: we will duplicate the OOo2 source, build the binaries from one copy, and the language packs form the other copy
[08:21] <carlos> so we don't think anything will be done until next week
[08:21] <carlos> ok
[08:21] <doko> ok, I'll see, what I can do. I'm working on the weekend however
[08:21] <carlos> in that case, for the imports is the same as firefox
[08:21] <carlos> doko, ok
[08:21] <carlos> the problem comes from the file we should generate on build time
[08:22] <carlos> pitti, any suggestion?
[08:22] <pitti> doko: why the split?
[08:22] <carlos> pitti, so we don't need to rebuild the whole oo.org when a language pack is updated
[08:22] <pitti> carlos: "the file" == this magical sdf thingy? I don't know what it is for...
[08:22] <pitti> carlos: ah, I see
[08:22] <doko> we should not build new binaries, just when we build new language packs
[08:22] <carlos> pitti, yeah, is a file needed to rebuild the oo language pack, a kind of mapping file
[08:23] <carlos> pitti, it's a file that your current .po extract script should take care about
[08:23] <pitti> carlos: well, that file can be taken right out of the source pacake, right?
[08:23] <carlos> pitti, it's autogenerated when we create the .pot and .po file
[08:24] <pitti> well, right before we update the source package with rosetta data, we could just call the po/pot extraction process to get the file
[08:24] <pitti> so,
[08:24] <pitti> debian/rules extractpo
[08:24] <pitti> update the po files
[08:25] <pitti> convert back
[08:25] <doko> pitti: are you talking about OOo?
[08:25] <carlos> doko, yeah, talking about OO.org
[08:25] <pitti> but will that existing sdf file work for completely new languages?
[08:26] <doko> pitti: not, if OOo isn't prepared for that language. i.e. valencian is not supported
[08:26] <pitti> doko: ah, so for now we can only update, but not add languages?
[08:27] <pitti> well, but that is already a huge improvement
[08:27] <carlos> pitti, the idea is that oo.org will not get new languages after the final release
[08:27] <pitti> right
[08:27] <carlos> doko, would pitti's suggestion work?
[08:27] <doko> pitti: yes, but OOo is already prepared for most languages, even, if there's not yet any translation
[08:28] <pitti> oh, cool
[08:28] <carlos> doko, to get the .sdf file on build time again
[08:28] <carlos> doko, Rosetta will know the sourcepackage version from where the .pot and .po files come
[08:29] <carlos> so we can provide that information just in case you need exactly that version to refresh the language packs
[08:29] <carlos> althought anyway, it should not change as the distribution will be frozen, right?
[08:30] <doko> carlos: ok, if I do have that information, then I need a location, where to for the sdf file
[08:30] <pitti> doko: I meant, why can't you regenerate the sdf right before updating the po files in the packagea?
[08:31] <carlos> doko, lets say: $root/po/
[08:32] <carlos> doko, so we execute the rule to create the .sdf and .po/.pot files again when creating a new language pack version and the files will be stored there (at $root/po/)
[08:32] <carlos> then we will need to put there the updated .po files
[08:32] <doko> pitti: where is the old sdf file then?
[08:32] <doko> I'm unsure, if I do understand you
[08:33] <carlos> doko, pitti suggest to create it again before doing the po>oo-langpack conversion
[08:33] <pitti> ok, let's do an example
[08:33] <pitti> ooo version 1 creates po files
[08:33] <pitti> rosetta imports them
[08:33] <pitti> some time advances
[08:33] <pitti> ooo version 2 wants to update translations
[08:33] <pitti> (btw, I don't mean oo.o2, just two microreleases)
[08:34] <doko> pitti: let's start with 1.9.121, assume, that 1.9.123 is going into breezy, and 2.0 into breezy+1 
[08:34] <pitti> so to update translatiosn in ooo2, do we need the sdf from version 1 or 2?
[08:34] <doko> don't play around with OOo1
[08:34] <pitti> no, that's not what I mean, just two different versions
[08:34] <pitti> ok, so with your numbers
[08:35] <pitti> to update the translatiosn in 1.9.123, do we need the sdf from 1.9.121 or 1.9.123?
[08:35] <pitti> if the imported pot file in rosetta came from 1.9.121?
[08:35] <pitti> (which was my actual idea for abstraction)
[08:35] <doko> we need the version, that was used for generating the po export
[08:36] <pitti> ah, ok
[08:36] <pitti> and that will work with the newer one?
[08:36] <carlos> doko, ok, lets say that I get the new .pot file from 1.9.123 and merge the .po files with that file, shouldn't that be enough?
[08:37] <carlos> the .po files merged were from 1.9.121
[08:37] <carlos> the metadata information should be updated
[08:37] <pitti> ah, I see
[08:37] <pitti> that should even be cleaner
[08:37] <pitti> yes, and we don't need to store the sdf for that
[08:37] <doko> hmm, I think, rosetta will import a new pot file, and then be able to update the po files?
[08:37] <pitti> and would ensure 100% compatibility
[08:37] <carlos> doko, that way, I would be able to use the sdf from 1.9.123 
[08:38] <carlos> doko, Rosetta will update all .po files every time a new .pot file is uploaded
[08:38] <carlos> automatically
[08:38] <pitti> so, it is:
[08:38] <pitti> - fetch new po files from rosetta
[08:38] <pitti> debian/rules extractpo
[08:38] <pitti> (will generate sdf, pot, po)
[08:38] <pitti> msgmerge the po files with new rosetta data
[08:39] <pitti> and convert back to ooo format
[08:39] <pitti> all in one shot
[08:39] <doko> ok, so why do I need to cope with merging back po files (from an old version) into a new version, if rosetta can do that?
[08:39] <pitti> just for safety, I guess
[08:39] <pitti> doko: msgmerge is trivially easy to call
[08:41] <carlos> doko, just in case the new language pack from oo.org
[08:41] <carlos> is the first time that is uploaded
[08:41] <carlos> Rosetta will not get the new .pot file unless the oo.org language pack is imported into Ubuntu's archive
[08:41] <carlos> so lets say that 1.9.121 is in the archive
[08:41] <carlos> and you prepare 1.9.123
[08:42] <carlos> Rosetta will not have that .pot file until you upload it with latest translations from Rosetta (from 1.9.121)
[08:43] <doko> wait, it does have the 121 pot file, right?
[08:43] <pitti> yes
[08:43] <pitti> so msgmerge will filter out obsolete stuff
[08:44] <doko> ok, we generate the new pot file during the 123 build
[08:44] <carlos> doko, right
[08:45] <carlos> and that's why you should merge the .po files from rosetta
[08:45] <doko> wait, why can't rosetta do that?
[08:46] <carlos> doko, again, Rosetta will do that when you upload again 123
[08:46] <doko> what about new translations which come from the new 123 OOo?
[08:46] <carlos> but Rosetta will not have the 123 .pot file yet
[08:46] <carlos> only 121
[08:47] <carlos> doko well, that's a good question, the system will upload them to Rosetta
[08:47] <doko> carlos: and rosetta cannot generate these during the build?
[08:48] <pitti> doko: msgmerge will ensure that new translations from upstream aren't lost
[08:48] <carlos> doko, only if the .pot file is uploaded first into Rosetta
[08:48] <carlos> pitti, well, it's not so simple
[08:48] <pitti> but this scenario is a corner case anyway
[08:48] <carlos> pitti, we are talking about two .po files changed in different places
[08:48] <pitti> usually we will have more than just one upload of a given upstream version
[08:49] <pitti> so if that is difficult, we just make it a policy: we don't update translations from rosetta the first time we upload ooo.o
[08:49] <pitti> that's not a big restriction AFAICS
[08:49] <carlos> pitti, doko: Ok, lets see it this way...
[08:49] <doko> pitti: define "first time", is it per version?
[08:49] <pitti> doko: yes
[08:49] <pitti> and it is even less a restriction, because:
[08:49] <carlos> the sourcepackage that will generate the binaries will not generate any .po/.pot files
[08:50] <pitti> 1) doko uploads ooo_n+1
[08:50] <pitti> 2) rosetta merges
[08:50] <doko> pitti: and when a new language is added in an -2 upload?
[08:50] <pitti> 3) doko uploads ooo-langpacks_n+1
[08:50] <carlos> pitti, I like that
[08:50] <pitti> we have split packages anyway, right?
[08:50] <doko> yes
[08:50] <carlos> doko, is it doable?
[08:51] <pitti> so the split package allows us to put rosetta "in between" the new upstream version and the new langpack deb generation
[08:51] <doko> ok, sounds doable, but a hell of syncing those two
[08:52] <pitti> doko: well, the sync task remains anyway, right?
[08:52] <doko> yes
[08:52] <carlos> doko, that way you don't need to take care about merging anythin
[08:52] <carlos> doko, and Rosetta will get always the updates from upstream
[08:52] <carlos> without needing to care about conflicts
[08:53] <carlos> pitti, abiword does not uses gettext...
[08:53] <carlos> pitti, they just have the .po generation process integrated into their source packages
[08:53] <pitti> dudes, that was a mere joke
[08:54] <pitti> carlos: hm, is there anything in gettext which makes it unusable for office suites?
[08:54] <pitti> well, nevermind, back to topic
[08:54] <pitti> so we settled the ooo rosetta update?
[08:54] <carlos> pitti, portability was an issue. New abiword versions will use it directly
[08:55] <carlos> pitti, I think so, I will write down all this so you can read it later and improve it until all people is happy
[08:55] <carlos> doko, ?
[08:56] <doko> carlos: ?
[08:56] <doko> ok, about the spec. yes, that sounds good.
[08:56] <carlos> doko, do you agree? do you have any doubt/question?
[08:57] <carlos> I know you don't have yet all information, but I will try to give you it with the spec
[08:57] <doko> I currently cannot see any problems.
[08:57] <carlos> ok
[08:57] <doko> I won't export anything for en-us and de
[08:58] <doko> these are the message-id's, and both languages are normally handled well upstream
[08:58] <carlos> doko, hmm, that would mean to filter them out on .po export time
[08:58] <carlos> I will note that on pending things
[08:58] <carlos> to the spec so we look for a way to do it
[08:59] <doko> we can add it to the todo list, if the other things work
[08:59] <carlos> doko, pitti when would you have a new meeting with the spec ready so we can comment it?
[08:59] <carlos> I think I would have it ready for tomorrow
[08:59] <carlos> Will send you it by email
[09:00] <pitti> would be fine for me
[09:00] <carlos> and after you read it, we would have another meeting (tomorrow or on Friday)
[09:00] <doko> I'm away until Friday afternoon, no email in this time
[09:00] <carlos> I will try to get some input from Mark also
[09:00] <pitti> let's comment with email replies
[09:00] <carlos> ok
[09:00] <carlos> then
[09:00] <pitti> the next meeting should happen if we actually tried out the po extraction in packages
[09:01] <pitti> s/if/after/
[09:01] <doko> so, is the next meeting on Monday too late
[09:01] <doko> ?
[09:01] <carlos> will open a thread and if we see it needed we try a meeting on Friday afternoon or next week
[09:01] <carlos> doko, I suppose it's not a big problem as we are not in the same place anyway
[09:01] <doko> carlos: I can read the spec on Friday, but won't have much done until then
[09:01] <carlos> so it's a "virtual" meeting
[09:01] <carlos> doko, don't worry, that would be enough
[09:01] <pitti> ok, great
[09:01] <carlos> I will be travelling on Monday
[09:02] <carlos> not sure if I will have network connection
[09:02] <carlos> so we are not in a hurry
[09:02] <carlos> doko, pitti what's our timeline for breezy?
[09:02] <carlos> so we have this sorted out on time?
[09:02] <pitti> carlos: I hope you won't get stuck at an airport for 4 hours again :-)
[09:02] <pitti> carlos: feature freeze is next wednesday
[09:02] <carlos> pitti, not 4 hours but about 10 hours or so
[09:02] <carlos> pitti, London link is slow :-(
[09:03] <pitti> carlos: but breezy goals can be fixed even after that
[09:03] <carlos> ok, I will try to accelerate all next week
[09:03] <carlos> so we get languagepacks 100% functional
[09:03] <pitti> carlos: what about fixing the export in general?
[09:03] <doko> carlos: hmm, let's see, what we can work out until Tuesday
[09:03] <carlos> pitti, btw breezy imports are running again
[09:03] <pitti> the hoary tarball was unusable
[09:03] <carlos> pitti, that's what I'm talking about
[09:03] <pitti> ah, cool
[09:04] <carlos> cool
[09:04] <carlos> doko, pitti anything else?
[09:04] <pitti> carlos: was that "space" thingy a bug in rosetta, or a "bug" in a translator? :-)
[09:04] <carlos> pitti, need to debug, It does not look like a bug in Rosetta, but I need to check it
[09:05] <pitti> ok, great
[09:05] <carlos> doko, pitti ok, so if you don't have any other thing....
[09:05] <carlos> doko, pitti thank you very much for the meeting
[09:05] <pitti> thank you too
[09:06] <pitti> have a nice evening then!
[09:06] <doko> fine, thanks
[09:46] <carlos> doko, how will be called the source package for the oo language packs?
[09:47] <doko> hmm, openoffice.org2-l10n ?
[09:48] <carlos> doko, ok, it's to reference it from the spec
[10:05] <siretart> motu meeting now?
[10:05] <dholbach> nope
[10:05] <dholbach> 22:00 UTC
[10:05] <siretart> aargl. 
[10:05] <dholbach> come back in 2 hours *whine*
[10:05] <siretart> and /me wanted to be in bed in 2h :/
[10:05] <siretart> ;)
[10:05] <dholbach> poor you
[11:52] <dholbach> we're 8 minutes before the meeting
[11:54] <\sh> that's DF ,-) bush drums ,-)
[11:54] <Riddell> shame, could do with a stoodshie with dholbach about modifying .orig tars :)
[11:55] <dholbach> Riddell: could you lighten me up on stoodshies? :)
[11:55] <ajmitch> Riddell: we can't just agree now that it should only very rarely be done? :)
[11:55] <dholbach> Riddell: is there any mudwrestling involved there?
[11:56] <\sh> hey bddebian seb128 
[11:56] <bddebian> Howdy \sh
[11:57] <dholbach> whiprush: !
[11:57] <whiprush> hey daniel!
[11:57] <\sh> jorge :)
[11:57] <ajmitch> whiprush!
[11:57] <dholbach> :)
[11:57] <ajmitch> good to see you finally joining in the motu madness ;)
[11:57] <ajmitch> I'm hungry, need to get some food out of the fridge ;)
[11:57] <\sh> TheFridge oh no
[11:58] <\sh> neverending story
[11:58] <whiprush> heh
[11:58] <ajmitch> hi azeem 
[11:58] <bddebian> Wow, yeah, hi azeem  :-)
[11:58] <dholbach> you all might want to have a look at the agenda on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting
[11:59] <dholbach> anybody who wants to chair the meeting?
[12:00] <\sh> dholbach: u r welcome ,-)
[12:00] <dholbach> i see :)
[12:00] <ogra> dholbach, go ahead
[12:00] <dholbach> hi everybody
[12:00] <dholbach> we have quite a full agenda
[12:00] <ogra> <-- Oliver Grawert
[12:01] <dholbach> so please try not to flame :-)
[12:01] <bddebian> <-- Barry deFreese
[12:01] <mbreit> \me is Moritz Breit
[12:02] <ogra> Seveas, finally !!
[12:02] <Seveas> :)
[12:02] <dholbach> ok is that everybody? :)
[12:02] <Seveas> i've found a great game i want to package ogra :)
[12:02] <bddebian> heh
[12:02] <ogra> hehe
[12:02] <\sh> dholbach: let's rock :)
[12:02] <dholbach> our beloved breezy-changes hero stephan \sh hermann wants us to think about the concept of MOTU Taskforces
[12:03] <dholbach> \sh: do you want to tell us about about the problems that make this necessary
[12:03] <\sh> sure..but it's not a problem...:)
[12:03] <siretart> Seveas: talk to me in #ubuntu-motu later about your game package
[12:04] <\sh> ok...as u all know, we as team have several tasks to do..like those funny transitions, reviews, training of new motus etc.
[12:04] <\sh> but in times like nowadays, we can't accomplish all tasks with the same team strength, so I was thinking about some type of "load balancing"
[12:05] <\sh> some members are working on the transitions, some on the reviews, and some others are doing NewMotuTrainings...something like that
[12:05] <ogra> a MOTULoadBalance team :)
[12:05] <siretart> ogra: well, MOTU is supposed to do some kind of load balancing anyway ;)
[12:05] <Seveas> ogra, that would be bureaucracy and work counterproductive
[12:05] <ogra> (kidding)
[12:06] <ogra> hey regard the :)
[12:06] <ogra> ;)
[12:06] <\sh> all work has always priority 1 as u know ;) and this is a real challenge sometimes
[12:06] <dholbach> what opinions do you all have on this?
[12:06] <siretart> \sh: what problem do you want to solve with the creation of teams?
[12:07] <ogra> \sh, in my eyes the stability of the distro has prio 1 for me... i.e. merges and transitions > reviews
[12:07] <ajmitch> do you think that having people just working on things isn't enough?
[12:07] <\sh> siretart: that all work is done in a good timeframe..
[12:07] <ajmitch> or do you feel that some parts (reviews, etc) get less love?
[12:07] <\sh> I don't want to have packages waiting for reviews months and months, but if there are some other real work to be done, we need some more hands sometimes
[12:08] <dholbach> i have one objection: people will always do things they like best - whatever those things are - some are even interested in doing a bit of everything
[12:08] <ogra> ajmitch, the latter... but i dont cry a tear about it, we can approve them later still
[12:08] <siretart> well, I don't think the creation of teams itself will give us more manpower..
[12:08] <\sh> dholbach: yes right...
[12:08] <\sh> siretart: it's not a team ... 
[12:08] <\sh> in this case...