[12:14] <opi> g'day
[12:15] <mdz> doko: they are possible; they will require prior approval (exceptions)
[12:15] <doko> mdz: fine, just focusing on BreezyGoals
[12:16] <mdz> doko: what driver updates are necessary to implement your goals?
[12:25] <lamont> Kamion: actually, if you accidentally built me a new ia64 CD set, that might be interesting.  more than likely it's not though
[12:30] <lamont> so much for :33
[12:32] <lamont> ENOSMURFIX
[12:32] <lamont> then again, it's late there.
[12:33] <ogra> 00:34
[12:33] <Nafallo> lamont: indeed. I need to talk with him to :-)
[12:53] <TerminX> ugh, why is the Xorg binary still in the xserver-xorg package?  *curses*
[12:54] <Amaranth> TerminX: where should it be?
[12:54] <TerminX> xserver-xorg-core
[12:55] <TerminX> as noted in http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12690
[12:55] <TerminX> everything else was moved
[12:55] <Amaranth> oh, you don't want to pull in all of those drivers? :)
[12:55] <gilaway> hi
[12:55] <TerminX> correct
[12:55] <TerminX> I had to to upgrade, and I want them gone ;)
[12:56] <gilligan-> the quality of the ubuntu-devel mailinglist is kind of decreasing
[12:56] <dholbach> i'm off to bed - see you around
[12:56] <gilligan-> with great posts such as
[12:56] <gilligan-> > Not to sound like a n00b or anything, but how do I change hoary to
[12:56] <gilligan-> > breezy?
[12:56] <gilligan-> Here's how I did it;
[12:56] <gilligan-> ...
[12:56] <Amaranth> night dholbach 
[12:56] <dholbach> night Amaranth 
[12:56] <TerminX> I guess I'll bother daniels about it when he's around
[12:57] <Amaranth> gilligan-: users migrate over to -devel when they realize the developers actually talk there and not on -users
[12:57] <Amaranth> gilligan-: they think we have time to answer all their questions and still actually get things done
[12:57] <gilligan-> heh.yeah.. great
[12:59] <gilligan-> i'm not an active ubuntu developer myself atm, but i'm subscribed because i'm subscribed because i'm interested to see what's going on.. but at least i keep my mouth shut - until i have something worthwhile to say hehe
[12:59] <dholbach> "developers" respond to questions on the users list and i think that's good work they do
[12:59] <Kamion> TerminX: the Xorg *binary* is in xserver-xorg-core, it's only the /usr/bin/Xorg symlink
[01:00] <Amaranth> dholbach: sure, they answer some questions but some users think they're questions are more important
[01:00] <Amaranth> err, their
[01:00] <Kamion> which is unnecessary anyway now that /usr/bin/X11 is a symlink to /usr/bin; I'm inclined to consider the symlink in xserver-xorg to be a bug
[01:00] <Kamion> Amaranth: same happens with IRC channels, too
[01:00] <Amaranth> aye
[01:01] <rob^> anyone know where html versions of man pages are on the system?
[01:01] <gilligan-> looking at the ubuntu forums I also found it quite shocking to see how many utterly clueless ppl upgraded to breezy in recent time hehe
[01:01] <dholbach> complaining about it doesn't change anything, i fear
[01:01] <Amaranth> hasn't the gnome devel list changed 2 or 3 times because of things like that?
[01:01] <gilligan-> hehe.dunno
[01:02] <Amaranth> gilligan-: Yeah, it's starting to get annoying having all of these people upgrade to breezy with no clue what they're doing and expecting things to work or to get instant help if they dont'
[01:02] <Kamion> rob^: there aren't pregenerated HTML versions in general
[01:02] <Kamion> rob^: try man -H
[01:02] <doko> mdz: these are no explicit goals, just updating the avm drivers to the current versions, and checking if bug reports like 8581 are fixed
[01:02] <rob^> what is yelp pulling then?
[01:02] <Kamion> I assume it's generating them on the fly
[01:03] <Amaranth> gilligan-: this is probably off-topic though :)
[01:03] <mdz> doko: if you have a chance to take a look at l-r-m and get fcpcmcia_cs building, that would be good
[01:03] <rob^> hmm, intresting
[01:03] <Kamion> groff has an HTML frontend, or it could be doing it itself; IIRC it's the latter, so that it can do inter-page links and tricks like that
[01:03] <gilligan-> Amaranth, blergh... :)
[01:03] <mdz> doko: its build process is a bit different from the others and I didn't have time to look at it much
[01:03] <rob^> Kamion, thanks I'll check it out
[01:03] <Kamion> although there's also the w3mman approach to doing inter-man-page links, which is very cool though insane
[01:04] <doko> mdz: I'll look at it, but what I did hear from upstream, this driver isn't supported anymore. I'll check
[01:04] <Kamion> (i.e. apply mad series of regexes to groff output)
[01:05] <mdz> doko: oh, then no one will miss it (it is not being built anymore)
[01:07] <gilligan-> hm.. I suppose there is presently no way to hotplug display-devices in x.org ?
[01:07] <gilligan-> maybe at some point after the modularization process..
[01:07] <gilligan-> ?
[01:08] <gilligan-> although this is more of a structural change anyway i suppose
[01:09] <Kamion> mdz: ok to follow the various xlibmesa package renames in xorg -44 with seed changes and promotion to main? they're hurting ubuntu-desktop installability
[01:13] <mdz> Kamion: yes, definitely
[01:15] <mxpxpod> does anyone else have this problem? http://www.reigndropsfall.net/images/firefox-font-problem.png
[01:16] <seth_k> yeah, all my fonts are huge-mongous
[01:17] <mxpxpod> seth_k: the strange thing is that it's only firefox that's doing it
[01:17] <seth_k> indeed, for me as well mxpxpod 
[01:17] <mxpxpod> seth_k: ah, ok
[01:17] <mxpxpod> just making sure :)
[01:18] <seth_k> Right now I'm just annoyed that all GTK apps segfault when I try to use their menus :D
[01:20] <Amaranth> ?
[01:21] <Amaranth> the menus work here
[01:21] <Amaranth> do you mean the filechooser?
[01:22] <seth_k> nope, like the menus in Gaim or Synaptic. I'll show you the error message, one sec
[01:22] <seth_k> http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/330325
[01:23] <seth_k> same thing if I run Gaim, seahorse, every GTK app I try (I use KDE apps for the most part though)
[01:23] <Amaranth> err
[01:23] <Amaranth> you're fully upgraded and have logged out since upgrading?
[01:24] <seth_k> Fully upgraded except for X and have logged out... upgrading X still wants to uninstall gdm and kdm so I haven't done it yet
[01:26] <Amaranth> no clue then
[01:26] <Amaranth> everything works here
[01:26] <seth_k> maybe a KDE + GTK thing
[01:33] <Nafallo> hmm, what hosting does the LoCo-teams get from ubuntu? linode vservers?
[01:38] <Kamion> mdz: hmm, x-window-system-core Depends: libglu1-mesa now too
[01:39] <Kamion> mdz: is it OK to promote Mesa (considering that it was basically copied into xorg anyway ...) or does it need a main inclusion report?
[01:41] <squinn> You know what I love about Linux and Ubuntu? [and yes, this belongs in devel. my point is coming.] 
[01:41] <squinn> The fact that you can talk to and literally interact with the "big developers". If I tried that in closed-source, pwuh.
[01:42] <Kamion> also, hmm, mesa Build-Depends: lesstif1-1; didn't we throw that out?
[01:50] <Kamion> yes, linode
[01:50] <Kamion> I don't know any more details than that though
[01:51] <Nafallo> Kamion: that was all I needed :-). know we can stop worry about hosting ;-).
[01:51] <Nafallo> Kamion: thanx
[02:01] <mdz> Kamion: as a rule, anything whose source was already being built in main anyway doesn't need a report
[02:02] <mdz> (within reason; if something is radically repackaged it should be eyeballed, etc.)
[02:02] <Kamion> yeah, I think mesa basically makes sense; lesstif1-1 concerns me though
[02:03] <mdz> xorg didn't build-dep on lesstif...
[02:03] <mdz> and I am happier if it is not in main
[02:04] <mdz> Kamion: we ought to be able to disable the motif stuff in there
[02:04] <Kamion> +  * motif widget library libMesaGLwM added (compiled using headers from lesstif). Fixes bug #25380
[02:04] <Kamion> yeah
[02:05] <Kamion> it's hard to tell what uses it though
[02:07] <mdz> very ugly motif programs
[02:07] <Kamion> reverse build-depends of mesag-dev that aren't just as a libGL or libGLU alternative are creox, tulip, varkon
[02:07] <Kamion> I can't say they sound terribly important
[02:08] <Kamion> (and they might be OK anyway)
[02:15] <mdz> tulip is still around? wow
[02:15] <mdz> I packaged that originally and it was so buggy as to be unusable; I thought I asked for it to be removed
[02:15] <mdz> oh, I did, and it was, and someone reuploaded it
[02:20] <mdz> apt-ism of the day:
[02:20] <mdz>     string::size_type Slash = TmpSrc.rfind('=');
[02:23] <Kamion> I'm ripping libGLw out of mesag-dev now
[02:27] <poningru> hi I had a question
[02:27] <poningru> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BreezyGoals
[02:27] <poningru> how can I help with the testing in those things?
[02:27] <poningru> asuming the people need help in that
[02:42] <mdz> poningru: in most cases it should be clear from reading the spec; if not, contact the person listed on the spec (the names are IRC nicks)
[02:42] <poningru> hmm ic
[02:42] <poningru> k thanks
[03:34] <squinn> I love you all.
[03:38] <squinn> I boot into Breezy, wireless card works out-of-the-box.
[03:38] <squinn> I'd have to configure it in Warty, and upgrade to Hoary..but this is perfect!
[03:38] <squinn> Thanks everyone.
[03:40] <TerminX> somebody should update the topic to mention that X is fixed and to see Daniel's posting to ubuntu-devel for details before upgrading
[05:46] <LinuxJones> night all 
[05:54] <hub> upgraded to today breezy
[05:54] <hub> bot without pain :-(
[06:11] <windex> hi guys. i have a problem with g++ 3.3.5 that is not directly ubuntu related but, well, i figure you guys might be able to help. it's having a problem with a C++ constructor (that takes arguments), and it's throwing a parse error before `{' error. any suggestions?
[06:13] <hub> make sure all the class are defined
[06:13] <hub> and that there is no trailing ';'
[06:14] <hub> how can I get a change in pmount reverted ?
[06:14] <hub> given that there is a bug for it
[06:15] <windex> hmm.
[06:15] <windex> hub: everything appears to be ok. I'm using -Wall and I get no warnings, just a crap out during compile.
[06:15] <hub> windex: bah, don't know like this
[06:16] <windex> google couldn't help me either. :)
[06:32] <windex> hm.
[06:32] <windex> no matter how i alter the code it still breaks. fun.
[06:34] <mdz>         DefaultDepth    1
[06:34] <mdz> that is not ideal
[07:07] <windex> hub, you will be happy to know there is no logical reason for the error. when i moved pthread_mutex_init to another line (as opposed to the first line of code), it worked fine.
[07:09] <hub> windex: without seeing the source, no idea
[07:10] <windex> hub, if you write any c++ class (i wrote one from scratch to test it), and in its constructor, as the first line of code, use pthread_mutex_init, it _will_ bomb every time. don't ask me. :)
[07:15] <windex> hub, thanks for trying to help!
[07:33] <bob2> #c++
[07:33] <bob2> also, if you're going to ask people for help with code, you need to already have the source somewhere where people can see it
[07:39] <hub> why do I get "Gdk-WARNING **: locale not supported by Xlib, locale set to C
[07:39] <hub> "
[07:39] <hub> it is set to en_CA
[07:40] <Lathiat> hub: i keep seeing that
[07:40] <Lathiat> dunno if its stopped now
[07:40] <hub> still with tonite breezy
[07:40] <hub> that's why I'm asking
[07:40] <hub> maybe I miss a package
[07:41] <Phython_> hub: I've always seen that error
[07:52] <hub> not before breezy
[08:37] <windex> bob2, by the time i had reimplimented the code in a form i could share, i discovered the problem. :)
[08:49] <pef> hello
[11:23] <Kamion> elmo: please sync tzsetup and clock-setup from Debian, but make them Priority: extra for now
[11:24] <Kamion> elmo: actually, hmm, just clock-setup
[11:24] <Kamion> elmo: (tzsetup produces tzsetup-udeb and collides with base-config, so I need to check it out by hand first)
[12:41] <Mez> crimsin: ping
[01:35] <theine> On my breezy system, /etc/X11/X is a dead link (points to /usr/bin/X11/Xorg, which doesn't exist). Should this link point to /usr/bin/Xorg or should /usr/bin/Xorg be moved to /usr/bin/X11/Xorg ?
[01:36] <Amaranth> err
[01:36] <Amaranth> /usr/bin/X11 is a symlink to /usr/bin
[01:40] <theine> not for me...
[01:40] <theine> it's an ordinary directory
[01:41] <Amaranth> then you have a broken upgrade
[01:41] <Amaranth> you are fully up-to-date in breezy, right?
[01:42] <theine> Sorry, I did have a broken package... Now that I've reinstalled x-common, /usr/bin/X11 points to ../bin
[01:44] <Amaranth> err, it points to /usr/bin/bin?
[01:45] <Amaranth> mine says ../bin too, i guess i just don't understand how symlinks work :P
[01:45] <theine> Amaranth, I guess it depends in which directory you're currently in
[01:46] <Amaranth> no, doesn't seem to
[01:46] <theine> Amaranth, no, it doesn't...
[01:46] <theine> :)
[01:47] <Kamion> ../bin is resolved with respect to dirname(/usr/bin/X11) == /usr/bin
[01:47] <Kamion> so it turns into /usr/bin/../bin == /usr/bin
[01:48] <Kamion> indeed, it does not depend on your current directory at all
[01:48] <Amaranth> ah, that kinda makes sense
[01:48] <tuhl> Hi!
[01:48] <Kamion> but if you imagine yourself standing in the directory where the name 'X11' is present, it makes sense
[01:49] <tuhl> what about the current state of X?
[01:49] <tuhl> is ist usable?
[01:49] <Amaranth> yes
[01:49] <Amaranth> right now i don't even think it's installable
[01:49] <Kamion> mesa needs to be promoted to main to make x-window-system-core installable; I'm working on a prerequisite for that
[01:49] <Amaranth> err, no
[01:49] <tuhl> ok
[01:49] <Kamion> but fixing whatever it is that's breaking base-config acquired higher urgency
[01:50] <tuhl> in which packare are the drivers cotinaied?
[01:50] <Kamion> xserver-xorg-driver-*
[01:50] <Kamion> (that's really a #ubuntu question, btw ...)
[01:50] <Amaranth> and xserver-xorg-input-*
[01:50] <tuhl> my current system sais it does not find a savage driver...
[01:50] <tuhl> Kamion: okok
[01:51] <theine_> Is one of the goals of this modular Xorg thing to only have xserver-xorg-driver-<my video card> installed, and not all the other video drivers?
[01:52] <Amaranth> no
[01:52] <theine_> ok
[01:52] <Kamion> ah, archive-copier needs to force libdiscover1 into desktop, ok
[01:52] <Amaranth> ubuntu-desktop depends on xserver-xorg which depends on all of the drivers
[01:53] <Amaranth> but you can choose to uninstall the metapackages and all the drivers you don't need
[01:53] <Kamion> theine_: you will probably be able to do that (if you ignore ubuntu-desktop), but the primary goal is more to be able to decouple maintenance of the various drivers
[01:53] <theine_> Amaranth, sure, but that might not need to be the case necessarily, does it?
[01:53] <Amaranth> it does
[01:53] <Kamion> e.g. so that a fix can be made to the i810 driver without everyone having to download all the drivers again
[01:53] <Kamion> theine_: it's not likely to change in the near future
[01:53] <Amaranth> Kamion would have a heart attack if d-i needed to figure out which driver package to install :)
[01:53] <theine_> Kamion, ah, i see, that makes sense of course
[01:54] <Kamion> for it to change, the installer would have to learn about video cards, and that's pretty nasty; furthermore if you changed video cards, you'd have to install more packages
[01:54] <Kamion> our approach for the default install has generally been to install as much hardware compatibility as possible
[01:55] <theine_> Not that I'm bothered in any way by having all the other xorg drivers installed...
[01:55] <Kamion> sheesh, networkless server installs have been broken since 16th May
[01:57] <Mez> hmm, can anyone tell me how to fix a small problem I'm having
[01:58] <Mez> I'm trying to compile something which uses ld -lstdc
[01:58] <Mez> I'm trying to compile something which uses ld -lstdc++ 
[01:58] <Mez> but, theres no libstdc++.so justa  libstdc++.so.6
[01:58] <Mez> without linking it ... is there a way I can get it to use .so.6
[01:59] <Kamion> you're missing the -dev package
[01:59] <Kamion> also things shouldn't use ld -lstdc++; use g++ to link C++ programs
[01:59] <Kamion> ld -lstdc++ is nonportable
[02:00] <Mez> Kamion, I have the -dev package...
[02:00] <Kamion> ok, in that case use g++
[02:00] <Mez> and I'm working with someone elses package :D lol 
[02:00] <Kamion> it may have been changed to force people to fix their link lines
[02:00] <Kamion> I see that libstdc++6-4.0-dev ships /usr/lib/gcc/i486-linux-gnu/4.0.2/libstdc++.so
[02:01] <Mez> ah fair enough - it may just not be in my libpath
[02:01] <Kamion> it shouldn't be
[02:02] <seb128> hi
[02:02] <Amaranth> hi
[02:02] <Amaranth> pyxdg CVS should fix all known pyxdg issues
[02:02] <seb128> cool
[02:02] <seb128> any new tarball planned?
[02:03] <Amaranth> including the filename encoding stuff, we just need someone to test it before we release
[02:03] <Amaranth> neither one of us can make a filename that triggers the errors
[02:03] <seb128> cool
[02:03] <Amaranth> no, i mean we can't test because we can't trigger the error
[02:03] <Amaranth> not because we fixed the error, we only think we did
[02:04] <seb128> oh, k
[02:04] <Amaranth> can you?
[02:05] <Amaranth> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=310939 gives some details
[02:05] <seb128> I had an error the other day when I tried yep
[02:05] <Amaranth> ooh, yay
[02:05] <Amaranth> does pyxdg CVS fix it?
[02:06] <seb128> dunno
[02:06] <seb128> and I don't intend to work on that today, that's saturday
[02:06] <Amaranth> :/
[02:06] <seb128> I just started my IRC because jbailey messed libsoup by uploading a package with a soname change without renaming the package
[02:06] <seb128> and I would like to get the new version moved to main
[02:08] <Kamion> cjwatson@jackass:~$ sudo -u katie katie/anastacia | grep soup
[02:08] <Kamion> cjwatson@jackass:~$
[02:08] <Kamion> hmm
[02:09] <seb128> I'm going to do the upload now
[02:09] <seb128> I've just an issue, libsoup2.2-7 has the .so.8
[02:09] <seb128> should I -8 Replaces -7 so?
[02:10] <Kamion> meh
[02:10] <Kamion> you could Replaces the specific buggy version
[02:10] <seb128> hum, the bugged version is here for 1 day
[02:11] <seb128> is that ugly to replace now and to drop the replaces on the next update?
[02:11] <seb128> I mean it's only going to affect people who jumped on the boggus version...
[02:11] <Kamion> should definitely replace it now, and maybe drop the replaces after breezy
[02:11] <seb128> k
[02:16] <seb128> Kamion: libsoup 2.2.5-0ubuntu2 uploaded, if you can move libsoup2.2-8 to main when it's available that would be nice, so I can rebuild GNOME stuff using it
[02:16] <seb128> thanks
[02:16] <Mez> anyone here with automake knowledge wanna help me out (in private) I'm confused as hell
[02:19] <seb128> Amaranth: 
[02:19] <seb128>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/xdg/Menu.py", line 1025, in getMenuEntries
[02:19] <seb128>     if menuentry.DesktopFileID not in ids:
[02:19] <seb128> UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xe9 in position 2: ordinal not in range(128)
[02:19] <seb128> 
[02:19] <seb128> I get this with a wrong filename
[02:19] <seb128> and /usr/share/doc/python-xdg/examples/test-menu.py
[02:19] <Amaranth> latest CVS?
[02:19] <seb128> but gnome-menus works fine
[02:20] <seb128> no, current tarball
[02:20] <Amaranth> that's what the latest CVS is supposed to fix :)
[02:20] <seb128> let me search for the CVS of this stuff
[02:20] <Amaranth> we just ignore files we can't convert to utf-8
[02:21] <Amaranth> cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.freedesktop.org:/cvs/pyxdg co pyxdg
[02:21] <Amaranth> i think
[02:21] <seb128> correct
[02:21] <seb128> thanks
[02:23] <seb128> $ /usr/share/doc/python-xdg/examples/test-menu.py
[02:23] <seb128> $
[02:23] <seb128> it's supposed to do something?
[02:23] <Amaranth> err
[02:23] <seb128> it's all commented
[02:24] <seb128> hum
[02:24] <Amaranth> oh yeah, test-menu.py is kinda screwy
[02:24] <Amaranth> dunno why
[02:24] <Amaranth> try smeg? :)
[02:24] <seb128> I will not know if that fixes the issue
[02:25] <seb128> smeg was crashing too?
[02:25] <Amaranth> for most people, yeah
[02:25] <seb128>     if menuentry.DesktopFileID not in ids:
[02:25] <seb128> UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8' codec can't decode bytes in position 2-4: invalid data
[02:25] <seb128> smeg with the tarball
[02:26] <Amaranth> haha, latest CVS doesn't work anyway
[02:26] <Amaranth> *sigh*
[02:26] <seb128> it starts with the CVS
[02:26] <seb128> but all the entry are unchecked and grey
[02:27] <Amaranth> yep, and all of the entries are missing
[02:27] <Amaranth> i'm beating lanius with a stick right now
[02:28] <seb128> :)
[02:28] <Amaranth> he went to bed or something
[02:29] <seb128> bah, there is no hurry
[02:30] <seb128> let me know when the CVS is good to try again :p
[02:33] <Amaranth> will do
[02:34] <Amaranth> he used locale.getdefaultencoding() instead of locale.getdefaultlocale()
[02:34] <Amaranth> the difference is one is a real thing and the other isn't
[02:36] <seb128> lamont, infinity: could you kick gnome-panel build?
[04:19] <Kamion> mdz: I've promoted libglu1-mesa and libglu1-mesa-dev
[04:20] <Kamion> mdz: anastacia also wants to promote mesag3, but I'm leaving that for now because the dependency is actually on mesag3 | libgl1 and libgl1-xorg already provides that
[04:20] <Kamion> mdz: (lesstif (build-)dependency ripped out of mesa, too)
[04:21] <bddebian> Speaking of which, is xlibmesa-glu-dev still in the archive?  It was still showing up a few days ago.
[04:24] <Kamion> I demoted it to universe yesterday
[04:24] <Kamion> it'll probably get removed eventually, since it's not-built-from-source
[04:31] <Kamion> doko_: are you/somebody already doing a main inclusion report for hsqldb?
[04:31] <Kamion> if not, please do ...
[04:31] <siretart> bye Kamion 
[04:33] <highvoltage> hi. is there a gui-installer team?
[04:33] <highvoltage> sorry- i should just check on the wiki... i will :)
[04:38] <doko_> Kamion: hmm, the sources already are included in the OOo2 source, which already is in main. Is this report still needed?
[05:10] <sivang> do we have a bug with -restricted-modules-686-smp re nvidia driver?
[05:10] <sivang> seems unloadable by the kernel
[05:11] <sivang>  sudo modprobe nvidia
[05:11] <sivang> FATAL: Error inserting nvidia (/lib/modules/2.6.12-6-686-smp/kernel/drivers/volatile/nvidia.ko): No such device
[05:11] <Lathiat> works for me
[05:11] <Lathiat> well, on 686 at least
[05:11] <Treenaks> sivang: No such device? Do you _have_ an nvidia? :)
[05:12] <sivang> Treenaks: yeah, ofcourse
[05:12] <sivang> Treenaks: the .ko is even there 
[05:12] <sivang> Lathiat: I'm using -smp
[05:12] <bob2> the .ko's existence iisn't the problem
[05:12] <sivang> -rw-r--r--  1 root root 4195737 2005-08-06 21:05 nvidia.ko
[05:12] <sivang> bob2: then what is?
[05:12] <bob2> it's saying it doesn't find a card it knows about
[05:12] <bob2> does lrm-2.6.8 work?
[05:12] <sivang> bob2: so the pci address may be wrong?
[05:13] <sivang> bob2: what is lrm ?
[05:13] <sivang> doh, rest modules
[05:13] <bob2> linux-restricted-modues
[05:13] <sivang> bob2: don't know. should I try?
[05:13] <sivang> bob2: I can try revert to 2.6.10-5 with restricted modules , why try .8 ?
[05:14] <bob2> or whatever kernel you used before
[05:14] <sivang> bob2: 2.6.10-5
[05:14] <sivang> bob2: I will try with it
[05:15] <bob2> you've never used the nvidi module before?
[05:16] <Lathiat> an lspci output might help
[05:16] <sivang> bob2: not since breezy
[05:17] <sivang> bob2: this was a hoary machine, and since breezy the nvidia stuff got broken, I've now trying to the first tie
[05:17] <Lathiat> sivang: appropriate lspci line?
[05:17] <sivang> 0000:01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation NV15 [GeForce2 GTS/Pro]  (rev a3) (prog-if 00 [VGA] )
[05:17] <sivang> s/tie/time/
[05:17] <Lathiat> do you know what the actual name of the card is?
[05:18] <sivang> Lathiat: what do you mean the "Actual" name? it's an asus board, if that's what you are asking
[05:18] <Lathiat> sivang: like, what is the card called
[05:19] <sivang> Lathiat: asus 7700 delux AGP card
[05:20] <Lathiat> hm
[05:20] <Lathiat> so it should work in theory as it is apparently gf2
[05:20] <sivang> Lathiat: right it's a GF2 GTS
[05:20] <sivang> (giga texel shader)
[05:20] <Lathiat> (nvidia removed all pre-gf2 support since 6629)
[05:20] <Lathiat> which is why i was wondering
[05:20] <sivang> Lathiat: ah ok
[05:21] <Lathiat> could try the 6629 drivers
[05:21] <Lathiat> just to see if it works
[05:21] <Lathiat> could be an error in their database of card ids
[05:23] <mdz> sivang: check dmesg
[05:27] <sivang> [4295082.160000]  NVRM:  supported through the NVIDIA Legacy drivers. Please
[05:27] <sivang> [4295082.160000]  NVRM:  visit http://www.nvidia.com/object/unix.html for more
[05:27] <sivang> [4295082.160000]  NVRM:  information.  The 1.0-7667 NVIDIA driver will ignore
[05:27] <sivang> Lathiat: you were right :)
[05:28] <Lathiat> :)
[05:28] <Lathiat> ok
[05:28] <Lathiat> didnt know some gf2 ones were included
[05:30] <sivang> Lathiat: this msg is coming out from the kernel module itself right?
[05:32] <sebest> hello, any ppc users?
[05:32] <bob2> best to just ask your question
[05:32] <bob2> but this is a development channel...
[05:34] <Lathiat> sebest, i see you fixed the pygtk buidl stuff, yay. :)
[05:34] <Lathiat> *build
[05:34] <Lathiat> what does it do now?
[05:34] <mjg59> jdub: Hi
[05:35] <sebest> Lathiat,just displaying a message that you need pygtk, what do you think about using zenity if available?
[05:35] <highvoltage> the GraphicalInstaller planned for October, is that planned to be a generic graphical installer that just somehow works, or the big ambitious graphical debian-installer? i couldn't make out from the wiki...
[05:35] <Lathiat> sebest: that sounds good
[05:40] <windex> possible bug in mozilla-firefox.. the default setting for paper is 'US Letter', and not whatever CUPS uses, i'm not even sure it can be checked, but I print to A4, and it took me a looonnnggg time to figure out what was wrong. :) the CUPS administrator->printing utility appears to default to A4 all around, having mozilla default to US Letter seems off.
[05:42] <windex> i guess not every printer makes a big deal out of it, but my printer renders postscript directly, and when it's told to format to US Letter, it does.
[06:22] <sivang> does anyonnnnnne have an idea why when copying large files almost all of my RAM i consumed?
[06:23] <Lathiat> probably because its goign through your disk cache
[06:23] <Lathiat> which isnt a problem...
[06:26] <sivang> Lathiat: however, if you think about that I am copying from a non SATA slow disk, into a SATA disk, wouldn't it be probably wise to cache small amount of data to leave me with enough RAM to keep system responsive, as the slow disk I am reading from cannot ever outreach the speed of the SATA disk ?
[06:26] <Lathiat> sivang: you mean the actual cp process is eating lots of ram?
[06:27] <sivang> Lathiat: yes
[06:27] <Lathiat> oh
[06:27] <Lathiat> interesting
[06:28] <sivang> Lathiat: eating 500 MB out of my 512 available
[06:41] <mjg59> mdz: Should we talk about PDA love at some point?
[06:42] <mdz> mjg59: thinking about making PDAs work in the next 5 days? ;-)
[06:42] <mdz> mjg59: we can talk now if you like
[06:45] <mjg59> mdz: Basically, we can't do anything useful with PDAs without lots of ugly special casing until OpenSync works
[06:47] <Lathiat> the palm stuff seems to work ok 
[06:47] <Lathiat> and i can synce over bluetooth to my sony ericsson phone with multisync happily
[06:48] <Lathiat> s/synce/sync
[06:53] <tseng> is anyone here that can kill off dbus-mono?
[06:53] <tseng> its even in main somehow
[06:55] <mdz> mjg59: so there's nothing we can even attempt for Breezy?
[06:57] <mjg59> mdz: I don't think so, no
[07:00] <mdz> tseng: I can demote it
[07:00] <tseng> mdz: its not needed at all.
[07:00] <tseng> mdz: we've been building it in "dbus" source for most of breezy
[07:01] <mdz> tseng: it was pulled in for libdbus-cil
[07:01] <tseng> mdz: yes, libdbus-1-cil comes from dbus now
[07:02] <tseng> libdbus-cil has no more rdepends
[07:02] <mdz> yes, it was on anastacia's list of suggested demotions
[07:02] <mdz> but I don't aggressively move things back to universe without being prodded
[07:03] <mdz> sometimes dependencies go away and come back during transitions, etc.
[07:04] <tseng> oh im not criticizing for you not picking it up or whatever
[07:04] <tseng> it just popped up on UnmetDeps, and its a dead package.
[07:10] <highvoltage> mdz: hi. are you busy atm? i can bother you later if you want...
[07:13] <mdz> tseng: oh, it should be removed completely?
[07:13] <mdz> tseng: you'll need to mail James for that
[07:13] <mdz> I've moved it into universe
[07:13] <tseng> mdz: ah, will do. thanks
[07:13] <mdz> highvoltage: what's up?
[07:16] <highvoltage> mdz: i decided to try to hack together a graphical ubuntu installer for tuxlabs, but now that i look at the way i plan it to work, it might eventually be feasable to work as an official ubuntu installer, there might be some limitations thought, that's where I need to ask you something.
[07:16] <highvoltage> what i plan to do is, have a small environment that starts xorg, a gecko browser, etc, which basically guides you through the installation options.
[07:17] <highvoltage> (some early toying around: http://jonathancarter.co.za/projects/tust/lang.xul http://jonathancarter.co.za/projects/tust/opts.xul)
[07:17] <highvoltage> then, it would write output to a kickstart file.
[07:17] <highvoltage> What I'd like to know from you is,
[07:18] <mdz> you might consider using system-config-kickstart
[07:18] <highvoltage> would it be possible to specify that kickstart file to debian installer after the cd has booted up? I know you would normally specify it at boot.
[07:18] <mdz> sure
[07:18] <highvoltage> i want something  simpler than system-config-kickstart.
[07:18] <mdz> or you could specify the options directly with a preseed file
[07:18] <mdz> kickstart is just a compatibility layer; preseed is more flexible
[07:19] <highvoltage> preseed? do you have a link?
[07:19] <mdz> no
[07:19] <mdz> I think there may be some documentation in the d-i manual
[07:20] <mdz> it's basically a way to specify arbitrary debconf values to d-i
[07:20] <highvoltage> ok. i'll look there.
[07:20] <highvoltage> thanks for the tip.
[07:21] <mdz> highvoltage: you should probably look at UbuntuExpress as well, before starting a new installer
[07:22] <highvoltage> is UbuntuExpress downloadable?
[07:22] <mdz> I'm expecting a code drop on Monday
[07:22] <highvoltage> I don't really want to do a new installer, just a frontend that makes the kickstart file, and then as d-i installs, the gui should show progress, banners, etc.
[07:22] <highvoltage> cool. that sounds real exciting.
[07:22] <mdz> there's a prototype in the ubuntu-express package in breezy, but there's nothing to see but a backend
[07:23] <Lathiat> highvoltage: well you can make the installer dump out a kickstart file
[07:23] <Lathiat> highvoltage: for the install you just did
[07:23] <Lathiat> not sure how but i was told you can
[07:23] <mdz> UE has the advantage of having a full desktop environment to play with
[07:23] <mdz> GNOME and KDE UIs, etc.
[07:25] <highvoltage> Lathiat: that would defeat the purpose, i don't want to use kickstart to automate things, i want to use kickstart as an interface between my front-end and debian-installer :) (i realise it sounds strange)
[07:26] <mdz> there's really no reason to use kickstart unless you have existing kickstart files you want to adapt to ubuntu, or it's an interface you're used to having
[07:26] <mdz> preseed is the native way to do it
[07:26] <Lathiat> highvoltage: oh, i see
[07:26] <highvoltage> ok, then preseed is definately the way i should go. i'm downloading the d-i manual now. i think that will help me a lot.
[07:27] <Lathiat> highvoltage: iirc the frontend to d-i is pluggable too
[07:27] <Lathiat> so thats another way of doing it...
[07:27] <Lathiat> possibly a better one
[07:27] <Lathiat> but i could be wrong
[07:27] <Lathiat> depends on your exact goals i guess
[07:28] <highvoltage> possibly, yes. might be more work though? the reason why i initially thought kickstart is, that it would be very little work (few things that just has to change in the file). preseed probably works similar.
[07:28] <Lathiat> what are you trying to do?
[07:29] <highvoltage> Lathiat: the same thing i try to do every night, destroy microsoft :)
[07:29] <Lathiat> haha
[07:29] <Lathiat> like, a general grpahical installer
[07:29] <highvoltage> yes, a general graphical installer.
[07:29] <highvoltage> not something official, or fancy.
[07:29] <highvoltage> but something that looks good, is easy to use, and works.
[07:29] <highvoltage> *and* uses d-i :)
[07:30] <Lathiat> if so, i would think (with know actual nowledge to base this on), that a d-i frontend (im pretty sure you can make them) would be better in the sense that its customizable the same was as d-i is
[07:30] <Lathiat> however youd probably end up following the same basic install process, you might want to do somethign different, im not sure
[07:31] <highvoltage> i think d-i changes little enough to have a slightly different front-end for the gui.
[07:31] <Lathiat> anyway, to sleep i go
[07:31] <highvoltage> you can combine some of the d-i screens and have next screens you have to work through.
[07:31] <highvoltage> Lathiat: ok. goodnight.
[07:31] <highvoltage> (have fewer next screens)
[07:39] <mdz> doko_: is openoffice.org2-debian-files really obsolete?
[07:45] <mdz> doko_: it wants to move to universe
[07:47] <doko_> mdz: it can be removed
[07:48] <mdz> doko_: then please send a removal request to elmo
[07:49] <doko_> mdz: ok, will do
[07:59] <dholbach_> is anybody there who can kill my criawips upload?
[07:59] <dholbach_> elmo? infinity? lamont? i was stupid enough to not upload it to revu
[08:01] <mdz> dholbach_: it's waiting in queue/new
[08:01] <mdz> so just email elmo
[08:02] <dholbach_> mdz: thank you, will do immediately
[08:02] <mdz> and he will reject it when he processes the queue
[08:02] <dholbach_> <- ouch
[08:06] <dholbach_> mdz: thank you very much - i'll be out for the rest of the day :)
[08:06] <dholbach_> should be better :-)
[08:13] <dholbach_> *wave*
[08:20] <wasabi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Debian-package-cycle.png
[08:24] <highvoltage> that's real cool :)
[08:43] <sladen> wasabi: I love the way it shows how ...simple ...the process is
[09:27] <sivang> mdz: how can I get the Nvidia Legacy Drivers as the dmesg msg says? are they available through the repo?
[09:55] <windex> have there been any reports of NPTL not working right on ubuntu? setuid/setgid are not working across threads on my ubuntu install.
[09:55] <windex> but on fedora core 4, they work.
[09:56] <windex> example: http://www.windex.org/random/test.c
[09:57] <Mithrandir> windex: what is the expected output?
[09:58] <windex> Mithrandir, both threads will report 65534 as their gid
[09:58] <windex> Mithrandir, even though only the child thread calls it.
[10:00] <windex> not gid, uid.
[10:00] <windex> meh.
[10:02] <Mithrandir> hm, I'm not sure how it's supposed to work.  I suggest you prod jbailey when he's around.
[10:03] <windex> okay. POSIX calls for setuid() in any thread as part of a process to become global. LinuxThreads did not do this properly, but NPTL is suposed to.
[10:04] <Mithrandir> so Ubuntu is right by changing the uid of all the threads?
[10:05] <windex> no, ubuntu is wrong because the main process reports uid 0, and the child reports uid 65534
[10:05] <windex> both should report 65534 if its working correctly.
[10:06] <windex> ubuntu _is_ using NPTL, though, because a multithreaded application correctly shows up as one entry on the process list.
[10:06] <Mithrandir> i am -1210250592, my uid is 65534.
[10:06] <Mithrandir> i am -1210254416, my uid is 65534.
[10:06] <Mithrandir> appears to be right here.
[10:06] <Mithrandir> (this is current breezy)
[10:06] <windex> are you using 5.04?
[10:07] <windex> ah. prob got fixed between hoary and breezy
[10:07] <windex> its just weird because ubuntu has the foundation, in code, for it to work correctly, according to version numbers.
[10:08] <Mithrandir> 5.04 has glibc 2.3.2, breezy has 2.3.5
[10:09] <Mithrandir> so it probably got fixed in between there
[10:09] <windex> yup.
[10:09] <windex> is libcap still in breezy?
[10:10] <windex> i'll just build the application to depend on libcap, and use cap_net_bind_service.
[10:10] <Mithrandir> libcap1 is Priority: required, so I don't see it going away anytime soon
[10:10] <Mithrandir> hello Simira 
[10:10] <windex> k. thanks. :)
[10:11] <Simira> Mithrandir :p
[10:11] <Mithrandir> windex: we didn't upgrade glibc to the newer version for hoary to keep compatibility with Sarge, both it's bugs and its features. :-)  Seems like we lost a little bit on the NPTL front by doing that.
[10:11] <Nafallo> Simira: hi! :-D
[10:11] <Simira> Nafallo: hi there! How are the kids?
[10:12] <Simira> :p
[10:12] <mako> does someone want to read an essay i wrote about the ubuntu development process before i stick it on the InterWeb
[10:12] <mako> ?
[10:12] <windex> Mithrandir, it's not that big of deal, dropping capabilities (except cap_net_bind_service) and using setuid before starting threads that bind to reserved ports is more secure.
[10:12] <windex> Mithrandir, i stumbled across the bugs while investigating diffrent ways for my app to work.
[10:13] <Mithrandir> mako: yes please.
[10:13] <sivang> mako: send away , I'll give it a read tommorow
[10:13] <Mithrandir> windex: bugs are annoying even though you can work around them, though
[10:13] <mako> Mithrandir: it's not long but there is a catch :)
[10:13] <windex> Mithrandir, consider this bug report filed then :D
[10:14] <sivang> mako: what is the catch? :)
[10:14] <mako> you have to read it in a text editor and correct any problems you find
[10:14] <mako> i'
[10:14] <mako> :)
[10:14] <Mithrandir> windex: I doubt it'll be fixed for hoary, sorry.  It's a too big change to change the NPTL version, I think and as it's fixed for breezy..
[10:15] <mako> and then send me the changed version, of course
[10:15] <sivang> mako: hrm :) I am way busy with lpint-bonnobo, the launchapd integratio helper lib the bonnobo edition :) not sure how much correctio I can give
[10:15] <windex> Mithrandir, not a problem. i reported it. that's my job. you're telling me it's fixed in breezy, that's your job. :) 
[10:15] <Mithrandir> mako: ok then, mail it to me
[10:15] <mako> Mithrandir: will do.. thanks :)
[10:16] <mako> i'm finishing my least read through it.. will send it in like half an nour
[10:16] <Mithrandir> windex: yup, just asking you not to hold your breath, unless you're willing to hold it until October. ;-)
[10:16] <windex> at least this isin't like debian where the bugfix would be expected in, what, 2009? :)
[10:17] <highvoltage> windex: don't diss debian
[10:18] <windex> i love debian. i run it on all my servers. does not change the fact they have far and few between stable releases. :)
[10:19] <highvoltage> mako: i'd like to see that text file :)
[10:19] <highvoltage> windex: true.
[10:20] <mako> highvoltage: email?
[10:21] <Nafallo> mako: add nafallo@magicalforest.se to that list :-)
[10:21] <mako> Nafallo: brilliant
[10:21] <mako> it's, unfortunately, docbook
[10:21] <mako> linuxtag requirements
[10:21] <mako> either that or openoffice
[10:23] <highvoltage> mako: jonathan@shuttleworthfoundation.org
[10:27] <sivang> highvoltage: ah, you're with the shuttleworth foundation...nice ;-)
[10:28] <highvoltage> sivang: ah, now i just have to figure out who you are :)
[10:29] <Nafallo> hehe
[10:29] <Nafallo> I am nobody, and god, depending on your POV ;-)
[10:29] <Amaranth> export DEITY="Amaranth"
[10:33] <sivang> highvoltage: heh :)
[10:35] <sivang> highvoltage: Sivan Green at your service Sir :) A devoted Ubuntu Memeber , and ocassional amature hacker (did some g-s-t improvments in the past, and now squeezing time helping with launchpad integration)
[10:49] <mako> Nafallo, highvoltage, Mithrandir: sent
[10:50] <Nafallo> mako: recieved :-)
[10:50] <Nafallo> I love syslog! best. mailnotification. ever. :-)
[10:56] <sladen> Nafallo: do you not read tcpdump as the raw data comes in?
[10:57] <Nafallo> sladen: hehe. I don't even think my server has it installed ;-)
[10:57] <Amaranth> wuss
[10:57] <Amaranth> :)
[11:02] <highvoltage> sivang: hehe
[11:53] <mjg59> tseng: beagle installs, but has a missing (and currently unsatisfiable) dbus-glib depend
[11:54] <mjg59> Now I am going to go and drink beer
[11:55] <lamont> Kamion: is libreadline4 or 5 the plan these days?