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Madpilotanyone here?03:47
Madpilotthat's about how I'm here, too... ;)03:48
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jsgotangcoBurgundavia: hi06:36
Burgundaviadid you see the draft I threw up06:36
Burgundaviavery rough06:36
jsgotangcolet me check 06:36
Burgundaviano wiki06:37
jsgotangcoahh right06:37
Madpilotthe draft quickguide? looks OK06:37
MadpilotBurgundavia: check RecentChanges, I added a bunch of search-engine-bait pages to Restricted06:38
Burgundaviamake rm a disambig06:39
jsgotangcohehe I LIKE IT06:39
jsgotangcomarketing types will be happy with it06:40
Madpilotit's a good brochure page06:41
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Madpilotanyone awake over here?09:16
jsgotangcoyou can always holler Burgundavia he rarely sleeps09:17
Burgundaviacheck out quicktour right now09:19
highvoltagehi Madpilot.09:19
highvoltagei got up very early this morning.09:19
Madpilotit's what, 0500 in South Africa? 0600?09:20
Burgundaviajsgotangco, yes09:20
highvoltageit's 09:20 now.09:20
highvoltagei woke up at 4:2509:20
highvoltagewhich is about 5 hours ago :)09:21
highvoltagefeels like it's time for lunch already...09:21
Madpilothmm, I'd thought RSA was behind Zulu/UTM. nevermind!09:21
highvoltagenope, GMT+2. we're with the germans :)09:21
jsgotangcoBurgundavia: you can probably ask mpt's opinion on they layout09:22
jsgotangcoit looks like a chessboard to me09:22
Burgundaviahopefully I can tweak it to be better spaced09:23
Madpilotit's ironic that you have to go back to table-layout hacks in wikis - no nice CSS layouts there!09:23
Madpilothow very 1990s...09:23
jsgotangcoif its possible to simulate a mediawiki style picture box/caption, it could probably work09:23
BurgundaviaMadpilot, I cannot see on this page how he turn off the border --> http://linuxguy.biz/screenshots.html09:23
jsgotangcoalthough it would entail very serious css/xslt play on the source09:24
jsgotangcoif its bound to be sourced anyways09:24
BurgundaviaI am almost created this page as a subpage of my wikipedia user page09:24
Burgundavias/am almost/almost09:24
jsgotangcosince docbook is not presentation-centic as a format09:25
Madpilot"border=0" works on both CSS & tables. 09:25
Madpilotbut I haven't looked at the source of either page09:25
Burgundavialeave it as is09:26
jsgotangcoi would suggest adding power tools/usage though09:26
BurgundaviaI need to mention the services and about me09:26
Burgundaviaand then play with the order09:26
jsgotangcothe power stuff should be at the end09:27
highvoltageMadpilot: the table hacks on wikis suck :(09:27
jsgotangcothe showstoppers at the top09:27
BurgundaviaI am going to move the laptop support stuff to the top09:27
Burgundaviaor near it, I should say09:27
jsgotangcois beagle to be included?09:28
Burgundaviano idea yet09:28
jsgotangcolast i heard it was in danger of being not included09:28
Burgundaviait is09:28
Burgundaviashould I mention menu-editing?09:28
jsgotangconasty deps?09:28
Burgundaviano, not mature enough09:28
jsgotangcosmeg is ubuntu-specific so yeah why not09:28
jsgotangcoshould give credit to Amaranth for that09:29
jsgotangcohe worked so hard for that app09:29
Madpilothttp://linuxguy.biz/screenshots.html <-- this is an odd mix of tables & CSS09:30
Burgundaviait looks good09:30
Burgundaviathe tables should probably be divs09:30
Madpilothe floats the images, but uses table cells to enforce the rest of the layout09:30
jsgotangcoit works though09:30
Madpilotyeah, it does work. Pure CSS would be a bit better, but I'm a purist... :)09:30
jsgotangcoBurgundavia: its also a good idea to have different image sizes, although all of them should be a rectangle09:31
jsgotangcohmmm does A9 toolbar look evil to you?09:33
jsgotangcothe amazon search engine09:34
jsgotangcoi like it because i can show a wikipedia result at the same time09:34
jsgotangconice sample of AJAX cleverness09:34
Burgundaviamy bloody left mouse button is dying09:34
Madpilotswitch to a left-handed mouse layout, then left button = right button, therefore used slightly less!09:35
Burgundaviaright, I mean left09:35
Madpilotthen get a job, so you can buy a new mouse...09:36
Burgundaviawe have from the 25th of august to the 8th of sept to take all screenshots09:36
jsgotangcopressure mounts09:36
Burgundaviaand one month to finish writing09:37
Madpilotthat's going to be a busy week...09:37
jsgotangcowe are very much behind09:37
Burgundaviadon't think so09:37
jsgotangcowell ok im very much behind on cookbook09:37
Burgundaviawell, you did just start09:37
jsgotangcoi dont think userguide is shippable09:37
Burgundaviaany kde stuff shippable?09:38
Burgundaviathe faqguide is09:38
jsgotangcoso we end  up with quicktour and faqguide09:38
Burgundaviathen we ship the faqguide as default yelp homepage09:38
Madpilothow do you upload a pic to the U wiki? I want to stick a terminal window screenie in BasicCommands09:38
Burgundaviamore actions drop down09:38
jsgotangcokde no idea it seemed to have lost steam when i turned over kubuntu quickguide09:38
Burgundaviaand froud vanished into thin air09:39
Burgundaviaalthough he is writing a book about ubuntu09:39
MadpilotBurgundavia: "More Actions - Attachments"?09:39
jsgotangcobut i think quick tour and faqguide are good enough09:39
BurgundaviaMadpilot, yes09:39
Burgundaviajsgotangco, yes09:39
Madpilotthanks. now I need to reset my desktop to default for the screenshot...09:40
BurgundaviaMadpilot, xnest09:40
Burgundaviainstall xnest09:40
Burgundaviathen create another user09:40
Burgundaviaand login with them in xnest09:41
jsgotangcoin a deeper thought, the next focus is harness existing docs and have them seen approriately instead of writing more docs09:41
Burgundaviato be honest, after people graduate fromt eh faq, they are likely to know how to google09:41
Madpilotgack. easier just to switch Gnome's themes briefly! interesting thought, tho09:41
jsgotangcoBurgundavia: right09:41
BurgundaviaMadpilot, if you are going to be taking more screenshots, it is worth it09:41
jsgotangcoits quite easy but can take time09:42
Madpilotjust one terminal one right now... xnest can wait09:42
BurgundaviaMicrosoft buys in Wal-Mart talent <-- that sums up the current state of MS right there09:43
BurgundaviaThe Ubuntu Express installer that is being developed (and hopefully will09:44
Burgundaviabe the default Breezy installer) includes such functionality.09:44
BurgundaviaUbuntu and any derived distro will be able to define a collection of09:44
Burgundaviaimages to be shown during the 15 minutes (aprox) of installation. This09:44
Burgundaviacan be a combination of a GNOME tour (KDE tour for Kubuntu) plus09:44
Burgundaviahighlights of the main applications that are being installed.09:44
Burgundaviasorry for the flood09:44
Burgundaviawe need to plan for this09:45
jsgotangcoojeda's email?09:45
jsgotangcooh installer09:45
Burgundaviato ubuntu-devel from Quim gil09:45
MadpilotXP does something similar, doesn't it?09:46
Madpilotlast time we installed XP, I seem to recall we went out for beer while it was grinding away...09:46
Burgundaviado we want that stuff to be the quick tour?09:46
Burgundaviathat is about 15 minutes of stuff I have09:46
Burgundavia45 secs each09:47
Burgundaviamentioned our effort in that thread09:48
jsgotangcoi think its only applicable in an installer guide instead of a quick tour09:48
Burgundaviaour quick tour?09:49
Burgundavianot really09:49
Burgundaviamakes a good marketing webpage as well09:49
Burgundaviaala the davyd thing and that other one09:49
jsgotangcobut your quicktour can only bee seen once installed09:49
jsgotangcounless you publish it on a page09:50
jsgotangcoor a pdf09:50
BurgundaviaI intend to09:50
jsgotangcoits useful in a brochure though09:50
Burgundaviaand each distinct section could go in that installer09:50
Burgundavianot perfect, but good enough for breezy09:50
jsgotangcowould it be nice on 1st boot the quick tour opens09:51
Burgundaviathat would be nice09:51
Burgundaviamaybe hack the upgrader to show the same thing?09:51
jsgotangcogood idea i totally forgot about upgrade paths09:52
Burgundaviadon't know if it is doable at this late stage09:52
Madpilotwhich Help page has the images stuff?09:52
Burgundaviathat adds it09:53
Burgundaviaimages are specific to one page, unlike mediawiki09:53
Madpilotgot that - what about formatting and stuff? float:right;border:0 and all that?09:53
Madpilotdog, what a *hack* wiki markup is. can't we just use normal XHTML/CSS tags? please?09:58
Burgundaviamediawiki markup is quite nice09:58
MadpilotI'd be done this image insertion already if I could use real markup!09:58
jsgotangcoalthough moin can be simpler09:58
Burgundaviamuch less hacky09:58
Madpilotis the only way to float:right with an image to stick it into a table?09:59
jsgotangcoyou can probably go back to zwiki hell though09:59
MadpilotI can't see how I associate the attachment:image bit with actual markup...09:59
Burgundaviano idea09:59
Burgundaviayou need to wrap the attachment in a table09:59
Burgundaviaand then style that09:59
Madpilotyou're kidding? what a horrible hack09:59
jsgotangcoits the wikiwiki way10:00
Burgundaviano, it is the moin way10:00
jsgotangcooh right10:00
jsgotangcomediawiki has nicer image sytling10:00
Burgundaviajsgotangco, speak of the devil, sean returns10:00
Burgundaviajsgotangco, check you inbox10:01
Madpilotbah. styling later. there's a screenshot here now: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BasicCommands10:01
jsgotangcohe's fixing the userguide10:01
jsgotangcokde userguide10:01
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jdubdudes, i am excited :)10:08
jdubthis is so much what the quickguide should be :-)10:08
jsgotangcodesktop showstoppers10:08
jsgotangcoyeah total rewrite10:09
Burgundaviathe idea had been percolating through my head since we talked jdub10:09
jsgotangcoi got convinced further when Burgundavia showed me the linuxguy.biz link10:10
BurgundaviaI was lucky that jsgotangco bought into the idea10:10
jdubwho is linuxguy.biz?10:10
Burgundaviahe sells ubuntu to non-techies10:11
Burgundaviaour parents, sisters, brothers, etc.10:11
jdubyeah, 'cos that page is rad10:11
jdubso for the tour, "intuitive interface" is a bit too generic10:11
BurgundaviaI would buy ubuntu if I saw that page10:11
jdubperhaps it would be good to split up the tour into two parts10:12
Burgundavia"clear menus"10:12
jdub1. general ubuntu benefits (probably ongoing)10:12
Burgundaviaubuntu in general and new in breezy?10:12
jdub2. new release benefits (changing with each release)10:12
jdubso 1. would include "easy software update"10:13
Burgundaviait sort of is, but I haven't really fleshed that out10:13
jsgotangco2. can also serve as a changelog / whats new page?10:13
MadpilotHmmm. General Ubuntu Benefits: 1. Free. 2. Free. 3. Have we mentioned that it's Free?  ;)10:13
Madpilotsorry, I'll go back to Minesweeper now...10:13
jdubMadpilot: yes, the "ubuntu commitment" could be one whole page10:13
jduband that's definitely ubuntu-benefit-ongoing :-)10:14
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jdubBurgundavia: perhaps writing out the list of benefits would be a good start10:14
jdubjust as simple bullet points10:14
jsgotangcohmm lycoris did something similar like this before10:15
jdubwe could start with BreezyGoals10:15
jdub- edubuntu -> not really an ubuntu user benefit10:16
jsgotangcoBluetooth support10:16
jdub+ laptopmission -> "ubuntu works great on your laptop hardware!"10:16
jdub- oeminstaller -> not really an ubuntu user benefit10:17
jdub+ thinclientintegration -> "run thin clients out of the box! <see documentation>"10:17
Burgundaviaadded to the list of Todo10:17
Burgundaviafurther stuff?10:17
Burgundaviajdub, I had thought of moving the latop stuff to a prominent section10:17
Burgundaviabut am unsure about features that might not make it (nm and gnome-power)10:17
jdub+/- launchpadintegration -> hrm, could be pimped as user benefit, contribute to ubuntu, etc10:18
jdub+ audiocdburning -> serpentine is a good feature in general10:18
jdub- audioinfrastructure -> not really a user benefit ("huh? sound works? well, ah, great... i guess")10:18
Burgundaviamight be worth a one liner10:18
jdub+ bluetoothsupport -> ubuntu talks to your phone10:19
jdubBurgundavia: not really, it rarely pays to talk about expectations as benefits ;)10:19
Burgundaviais that going to make it?10:19
BurgundaviaI am in a bind, because of the stuff that might not make it10:20
jdubwork with janew on that10:20
jdubwill be good for pressure ;)10:20
jdubanyway, so goals page is a good place to start for 2nd group stuff10:20
jdubthe new gnome features can also be helpful10:20
jdubimproved file management is a good one from 2.1210:21
BurgundaviaI cribbed quite heavily from davyds excellent stuff10:21
Burgundaviagnome should promote his work more10:21
jdubquite a few of linuxguy ones fit into the 1st group10:21
jdubfor instance, gaim should always be in there as a user benefit10:21
jdub"talk to ALL your friends in one easy to use interface"10:22
jdubOOo is a good one10:22
Burgundaviaalready there10:22
jduba page about GNOME in general10:22
Burgundavia"the power of gnome"?10:22
jdubgood ones already about software management and installation10:22
jdubBurgundavia: perhaps push the usability, accessibility and i18n benefits10:23
Burgundaviaglad niran didn't go awol on that10:23
jsgotangcoautomatic updateds and stuff10:23
Burgundavia"built on the highly usable and powerful Gnome desktop?"10:23
jsgotangcomednu editing?10:23
jdubalso flagging some of these things as available for windows *right off the live cd* would be cool10:23
jdubBurgundavia: powerful doesn't mean anything, easier not to say it :)10:23
jdubsee www.gnome.org/about/10:24
jdubjsgotangco: hard to sell expectation as a benefit :)10:24
Burgundaviafor LanguagePackRoadmap, there is a gui tool now, no?10:25
jdubhaven't seen it yet though10:25
jduboh, here we go10:25
Burgundaviapda, soundevents and printing went nowhere?10:26
jdubhave you been in touch with linuxguy?10:26
jdubemailing now10:27
Burgundaviawhat about?10:28
jdubhi, love your page, want to help out in ubuntu/gnome?10:28
Burgundaviajdub, language-selector is already there10:29
jdubyeah, i just looked at it (oof, ouch above)10:29
jsgotangcohmm what about photoalbums and stuff10:32
jsgotangcolike plugging in a digicam10:32
jdubjsgotangco: a 'just works' hardware angle?10:33
jsgotangcousb sticks, wlan sticks, etc10:33
Burgundaviais mono a feature?10:34
jdubOOo is, in general -> "complete office suite, compatible with common document formats"10:34
jdubmono isn't, really10:34
jsgotangcopowe user/developer benefits?10:34
jdubjsgotangco: probably best to avoid those, unless they're deeply, deeply cool10:35
Burgundaviahas SystemUpgradeTool gone anywhere?10:35
jsgotangcothese are mostly desktop showcases at the moment10:36
BurgundaviaI have added our notes to the ToDo section at the bottom10:38
BurgundaviaMadpilot, ironically, there is a thread on -devel about dropping the workspace switcher10:40
Madpilotyou mean the virtual desktop thingie?10:40
HrdwrBoBI used to use workspaces - I now use windowshade mode more10:41
Burgundaviajust for the default desktop, you can still add it after10:41
Madpilotcoolest new computer trick going, IMO, and they're going to drop it?10:41
HrdwrBoBBurgundavia: I think that's a good idea10:41
Madpilotah, OK, provided it's still available to switch on...10:41
Burgundaviathere are some discoverablity issues10:41
Burgundaviaand generaly usablity "where has my program gone" ones10:41
Madpilot"discoverability" means "what the heck is this?"10:41
HrdwrBoBbut I have some odd views.. like home as desktop :)10:42
Madpilotyeah, I can see that. I still like it, tho10:42
MadpilotHrdwrBoB: we've argued about that already tonight...10:42
HrdwrBoByeah :P10:42
HrdwrBoBsee http://evolvedoo.sourceforge.net/abstract/#2 for another take on it10:43
Madpilotinteresting - I'm still not convinced that it needs doing...10:44
HrdwrBoBit doesn't NEED doing - it's just my opinion that it's better (in that it Makes More Sense) but eh10:45
HrdwrBoBof more interesting note is that if you mouse over an mp3, it starts previewing and when you delete it with the delete key it keeps playing10:45
Madpilotnow that's an entertaining bug... heh10:46
Burgundaviajsgotangco, jdub I have to crash. Feel free to add more stuff to the todo/ the page itself or fire an email to the list. 10:46
jsgotangcosee you later10:46
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jsgotangcomdke: awake?11:35
mdkeyes :)11:35
jsgotangcoyou've been quiet lately :)11:36
jsgotangcoits unnatural11:36
mdkejsgotangco, as I said, I'm at the computer less so I'm quieter on irc11:37
mdkebut I'm still checking it and emails11:37
mdkeis there a meeting tomorrow?11:39
jsgotangcogf still around?11:39
mdkejsgotangco, yes11:39
mdkewe're both looking for jobs11:39
jsgotangcooh god i totally forgot about it11:39
mdkeand I'm looking for a house11:39
mdkehence the quiet :)11:39
jsgotangcowhat you think of the new direction of Quick Tour?11:41
mdkei think it will be a good document11:42
mdkei don't see why it should replace the quickguide11:42
mdkeit's totally different11:42
mdkewhy not make them both?11:42
mdkebut the quickguide is already done no?11:44
jsgotangconeeds thorough editing though11:44
mdkewhat about the relationship between quick tour and about ubuntu?11:45
mdkethe former is to some extent a subset of the latter11:45
jsgotangcoif you scrollback it can probably be included in benefit 311:46
mdkewhat is that?11:47
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mgalvinhi all04:05
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mpthello mgalvin04:08
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mgalvinhey mpt04:08
mdkemgalvin, did you get anywhere with packaging ubuntu-doc?04:10
mgalvinmdke: hi, i looked at it quickly a while ago and saw that some work was done on it, i didn't get a chance to build a working package... if we need/are ready for one i can jump back into it and get it built04:12
mdkei dunno if we are ready for one now, but I was just wondering about it04:13
mdkewe have some time between string freeze and release so it can be sorted out then probably04:14
mdkewe need to consider l10n too04:14
mgalvinok, i will take a look at it again soon anyway so that when we need it, it will be ready04:15
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mgalvinmorning jjesse04:29
jjesseis it afternoon for you? :)04:29
mgalvin10:30am here in NY :)04:29
jjessesame for here in mi04:30
jjessei never remember what time zones people are in 04:30
mgalvinwow, two people in the same time zone, who would have thought (for this team anyway ;)04:31
jjessegrin especially a US time zone04:31
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Burgundaviaouch, openoffice, X and bunch of smaller stuff. 160mb to download11:44
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cathey does ubunto have a handbook like fbsd?11:56
Burgundaviawhat sort of handbook?11:56
catwell ubuntus11:56
Burgundaviatargeted at what audience?11:57

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