=== Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === judax [n=troy@adsl-69-149-116-187.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@bl5-222-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === avanspronsen [n=andrewv@toronto-HSE-ppp4256837.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Nafallo [i=nafallo@c-459571d5.07-44-73746f50.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke [n=matt@unaffiliated/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Nafallo [I=nafallo@unaffiliated/nafallo] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Nafallo_ [i=nafallo@c-459571d5.07-44-73746f50.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin_ [n=mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === uniq_ [i=charlie@3ffe:80ee:31fe:0:0:0:0:33] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:47] anyone here? [03:48] vaguely [03:48] that's about how I'm here, too... ;) === poningru [n=poningru@pool-70-110-71-222.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === uniq_ [i=charlie@3ffe:80ee:31fe:0:0:0:0:33] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jgotangc@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:36] hello [06:36] Burgundavia: hi [06:36] did you see the draft I threw up [06:36] very rough [06:36] let me check [06:37] svn? [06:37] no wiki [06:37] ahh right [06:37] the draft quickguide? looks OK [06:37] QuickTour? [06:38] yes [06:38] Burgundavia: check RecentChanges, I added a bunch of search-engine-bait pages to Restricted [06:39] cool [06:39] thanks [06:39] make rm a disambig [06:39] hehe I LIKE IT [06:40] marketing types will be happy with it [06:41] it's a good brochure page === robitaille [n=daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru_ [n=poningru@pool-70-110-68-214.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru_ [n=poningru@pool-70-110-66-120.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@wblv-146-211-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jgotangc@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Madpilot [n=yh728@S0106000d88b9f3db.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:16] anyone awake over here? [09:16] zzz [09:17] yes [09:17] you can always holler Burgundavia he rarely sleeps [09:18] hey [09:19] check out quicktour right now [09:19] hi Madpilot. [09:19] i got up very early this morning. [09:20] QuickTourDraft? [09:20] it's what, 0500 in South Africa? 0600? [09:20] jsgotangco, yes [09:20] it's 09:20 now. [09:20] i woke up at 4:25 [09:21] which is about 5 hours ago :) [09:21] feels like it's time for lunch already... [09:21] hmm, I'd thought RSA was behind Zulu/UTM. nevermind! [09:21] nope, GMT+2. we're with the germans :) [09:22] Burgundavia: you can probably ask mpt's opinion on they layout [09:22] it looks like a chessboard to me [09:23] yes [09:23] hopefully I can tweak it to be better spaced [09:23] it's ironic that you have to go back to table-layout hacks in wikis - no nice CSS layouts there! [09:23] how very 1990s... [09:23] if its possible to simulate a mediawiki style picture box/caption, it could probably work [09:23] Madpilot, I cannot see on this page how he turn off the border --> http://linuxguy.biz/screenshots.html [09:24] although it would entail very serious css/xslt play on the source [09:24] if its bound to be sourced anyways [09:24] I am almost created this page as a subpage of my wikipedia user page [09:24] s/am almost/almost [09:25] since docbook is not presentation-centic as a format [09:25] "border=0" works on both CSS & tables. [09:25] but I haven't looked at the source of either page [09:26] gah [09:26] leave it as is [09:26] i would suggest adding power tools/usage though [09:26] I need to mention the services and about me [09:26] and then play with the order [09:27] the power stuff should be at the end [09:27] Madpilot: the table hacks on wikis suck :( [09:27] the showstoppers at the top [09:27] yes [09:27] I am going to move the laptop support stuff to the top [09:27] or near it, I should say [09:27] yep [09:27] hmm [09:28] is beagle to be included? [09:28] no idea yet [09:28] last i heard it was in danger of being not included [09:28] it is [09:28] should I mention menu-editing? [09:28] nasty deps? [09:28] no, not mature enough [09:28] hmm [09:28] smeg is ubuntu-specific so yeah why not [09:29] ok [09:29] should give credit to Amaranth for that [09:29] he worked so hard for that app [09:30] http://linuxguy.biz/screenshots.html <-- this is an odd mix of tables & CSS [09:30] it looks good [09:30] the tables should probably be divs [09:30] he floats the images, but uses table cells to enforce the rest of the layout [09:30] it works though [09:30] yeah, it does work. Pure CSS would be a bit better, but I'm a purist... :) [09:31] Burgundavia: its also a good idea to have different image sizes, although all of them should be a rectangle [09:31] probably [09:33] hmmm does A9 toolbar look evil to you? [09:33] a9? [09:34] the amazon search engine [09:34] i like it because i can show a wikipedia result at the same time [09:34] nice sample of AJAX cleverness [09:34] my bloody left mouse button is dying [09:35] switch to a left-handed mouse layout, then left button = right button, therefore used slightly less! [09:35] right, I mean left [09:35] ;) [09:36] then get a job, so you can buy a new mouse... [09:36] ouch [09:36] we have from the 25th of august to the 8th of sept to take all screenshots [09:36] yes [09:36] pressure mounts [09:37] and one month to finish writing [09:37] that's going to be a busy week... [09:37] we are very much behind [09:37] don't think so [09:37] well ok im very much behind on cookbook [09:37] well, you did just start [09:37] i dont think userguide is shippable [09:37] nope [09:38] any kde stuff shippable? [09:38] the faqguide is [09:38] so we end up with quicktour and faqguide [09:38] then we ship the faqguide as default yelp homepage [09:38] how do you upload a pic to the U wiki? I want to stick a terminal window screenie in BasicCommands [09:38] more actions drop down [09:38] kde no idea it seemed to have lost steam when i turned over kubuntu quickguide [09:39] and froud vanished into thin air [09:39] although he is writing a book about ubuntu [09:39] Burgundavia: "More Actions - Attachments"? [09:39] but i think quick tour and faqguide are good enough [09:39] Madpilot, yes [09:39] jsgotangco, yes [09:40] thanks. now I need to reset my desktop to default for the screenshot... [09:40] Madpilot, xnest [09:40] x-what? [09:40] install xnest [09:40] then create another user [09:41] and login with them in xnest [09:41] in a deeper thought, the next focus is harness existing docs and have them seen approriately instead of writing more docs [09:41] to be honest, after people graduate fromt eh faq, they are likely to know how to google [09:41] gack. easier just to switch Gnome's themes briefly! interesting thought, tho [09:41] Burgundavia: right [09:41] Madpilot, if you are going to be taking more screenshots, it is worth it [09:42] its quite easy but can take time [09:42] just one terminal one right now... xnest can wait [09:43] Microsoft buys in Wal-Mart talent <-- that sums up the current state of MS right there [09:44] The Ubuntu Express installer that is being developed (and hopefully will [09:44] be the default Breezy installer) includes such functionality. [09:44] Ubuntu and any derived distro will be able to define a collection of [09:44] images to be shown during the 15 minutes (aprox) of installation. This [09:44] can be a combination of a GNOME tour (KDE tour for Kubuntu) plus [09:44] highlights of the main applications that are being installed. [09:44] sorry for the flood [09:45] we need to plan for this [09:45] ojeda's email? [09:45] oh installer [09:45] to ubuntu-devel from Quim gil [09:46] XP does something similar, doesn't it? [09:46] yes [09:46] last time we installed XP, I seem to recall we went out for beer while it was grinding away... [09:46] do we want that stuff to be the quick tour? [09:46] that is about 15 minutes of stuff I have [09:47] 45 secs each [09:48] mentioned our effort in that thread [09:48] i think its only applicable in an installer guide instead of a quick tour [09:49] our quick tour? [09:49] yeah [09:49] not really [09:49] makes a good marketing webpage as well [09:49] ala the davyd thing and that other one [09:49] but your quicktour can only bee seen once installed [09:50] unless you publish it on a page [09:50] or a pdf [09:50] I intend to [09:50] its useful in a brochure though [09:50] and each distinct section could go in that installer [09:50] not perfect, but good enough for breezy [09:51] would it be nice on 1st boot the quick tour opens [09:51] that would be nice [09:51] maybe hack the upgrader to show the same thing? [09:52] good idea i totally forgot about upgrade paths [09:52] don't know if it is doable at this late stage [09:52] which Help page has the images stuff? [09:52] attachment:YourImage.png [09:53] that adds it [09:53] images are specific to one page, unlike mediawiki [09:53] got that - what about formatting and stuff? float:right;border:0 and all that? [09:53] HelpOnTables [09:54] thanks [09:58] dog, what a *hack* wiki markup is. can't we just use normal XHTML/CSS tags? please? [09:58] mediawiki markup is quite nice [09:58] yes [09:58] I'd be done this image insertion already if I could use real markup! [09:58] although moin can be simpler [09:58] much less hacky [09:59] is the only way to float:right with an image to stick it into a table? [09:59] you can probably go back to zwiki hell though [09:59] I can't see how I associate the attachment:image bit with actual markup... [09:59] no idea [09:59] you need to wrap the attachment in a table [09:59] and then style that [09:59] you're kidding? what a horrible hack [10:00] its the wikiwiki way [10:00] yes [10:00] no, it is the moin way [10:00] oh right [10:00] mediawiki has nicer image sytling [10:00] jsgotangco, speak of the devil, sean returns [10:00] styling [10:00] wa? [10:01] jsgotangco, check you inbox [10:01] bah. styling later. there's a screenshot here now: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BasicCommands [10:01] he's fixing the userguide [10:01] kde userguide === Madpilot switches back to his custom theme with relief... [10:08] hey [10:08] ahr [10:08] aye [10:08] dudes, i am excited :) [10:08] this is so much what the quickguide should be :-) [10:08] desktop showstoppers [10:09] yeah total rewrite [10:09] the idea had been percolating through my head since we talked jdub [10:10] i got convinced further when Burgundavia showed me the linuxguy.biz link [10:10] I was lucky that jsgotangco bought into the idea [10:10] who is linuxguy.biz? [10:11] http://linuxguy.biz/screenshots.html [10:11] he sells ubuntu to non-techies [10:11] our parents, sisters, brothers, etc. [10:11] yeah, 'cos that page is rad [10:11] so for the tour, "intuitive interface" is a bit too generic [10:11] I would buy ubuntu if I saw that page [10:12] perhaps it would be good to split up the tour into two parts [10:12] "clear menus" [10:12] 1. general ubuntu benefits (probably ongoing) [10:12] ubuntu in general and new in breezy? [10:12] basic/advanced? [10:12] 2. new release benefits (changing with each release) [10:12] ok [10:13] so 1. would include "easy software update" [10:13] it sort of is, but I haven't really fleshed that out [10:13] 2. can also serve as a changelog / whats new page? [10:13] Hmmm. General Ubuntu Benefits: 1. Free. 2. Free. 3. Have we mentioned that it's Free? ;) [10:13] sorry, I'll go back to Minesweeper now... [10:13] Madpilot: yes, the "ubuntu commitment" could be one whole page [10:14] and that's definitely ubuntu-benefit-ongoing :-) === karlheg [n=karlheg@host-250-237.resnet.pdx.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:14] Burgundavia: perhaps writing out the list of benefits would be a good start [10:14] just as simple bullet points [10:15] hmm lycoris did something similar like this before [10:15] we could start with BreezyGoals [10:16] - edubuntu -> not really an ubuntu user benefit [10:16] yeah [10:16] Bluetooth support [10:16] + laptopmission -> "ubuntu works great on your laptop hardware!" [10:17] - oeminstaller -> not really an ubuntu user benefit [10:17] + thinclientintegration -> "run thin clients out of the box! " [10:17] added to the list of Todo [10:17] further stuff? [10:17] jdub, I had thought of moving the latop stuff to a prominent section [10:17] but am unsure about features that might not make it (nm and gnome-power) [10:18] +/- launchpadintegration -> hrm, could be pimped as user benefit, contribute to ubuntu, etc [10:18] + audiocdburning -> serpentine is a good feature in general [10:18] - audioinfrastructure -> not really a user benefit ("huh? sound works? well, ah, great... i guess") [10:18] might be worth a one liner [10:19] + bluetoothsupport -> ubuntu talks to your phone [10:19] Burgundavia: not really, it rarely pays to talk about expectations as benefits ;) [10:19] is that going to make it? [10:19] dunno [10:19] yes [10:20] I am in a bind, because of the stuff that might not make it [10:20] yeah [10:20] work with janew on that [10:20] hmm [10:20] will be good for pressure ;) [10:20] anyway, so goals page is a good place to start for 2nd group stuff [10:20] the new gnome features can also be helpful [10:21] improved file management is a good one from 2.12 [10:21] I cribbed quite heavily from davyds excellent stuff [10:21] gnome should promote his work more [10:21] quite a few of linuxguy ones fit into the 1st group [10:21] for instance, gaim should always be in there as a user benefit [10:22] "talk to ALL your friends in one easy to use interface" [10:22] ok [10:22] OOo is a good one [10:22] already there [10:22] a page about GNOME in general [10:22] "the power of gnome"? [10:22] good ones already about software management and installation [10:23] Burgundavia: perhaps push the usability, accessibility and i18n benefits [10:23] glad niran didn't go awol on that [10:23] automatic updateds and stuff [10:23] hmm [10:23] "built on the highly usable and powerful Gnome desktop?" [10:23] mednu editing? [10:23] s/?"/'? [10:23] also flagging some of these things as available for windows *right off the live cd* would be cool [10:23] Burgundavia: powerful doesn't mean anything, easier not to say it :) [10:24] see www.gnome.org/about/ [10:24] jsgotangco: hard to sell expectation as a benefit :) [10:25] for LanguagePackRoadmap, there is a gui tool now, no? [10:25] yeah [10:25] haven't seen it yet though [10:25] oh, here we go [10:25] oof [10:25] ouch [10:26] pda, soundevents and printing went nowhere? [10:26] have you been in touch with linuxguy? [10:27] nope [10:27] ok [10:27] emailing now [10:28] what about? [10:28] hi, love your page, want to help out in ubuntu/gnome? [10:28] ah [10:29] jdub, language-selector is already there [10:29] yeah, i just looked at it (oof, ouch above) [10:32] hmm what about photoalbums and stuff [10:32] like plugging in a digicam [10:33] jsgotangco: a 'just works' hardware angle? [10:33] yeah [10:33] usb sticks, wlan sticks, etc [10:34] is mono a feature? [10:34] oo2? [10:34] sure [10:34] OOo is, in general -> "complete office suite, compatible with common document formats" [10:34] mono isn't, really [10:34] powe user/developer benefits? [10:35] jsgotangco: probably best to avoid those, unless they're deeply, deeply cool [10:35] has SystemUpgradeTool gone anywhere? [10:36] these are mostly desktop showcases at the moment [10:38] I have added our notes to the ToDo section at the bottom [10:40] Madpilot, ironically, there is a thread on -devel about dropping the workspace switcher [10:40] you mean the virtual desktop thingie? [10:40] yes [10:41] I used to use workspaces - I now use windowshade mode more [10:41] just for the default desktop, you can still add it after [10:41] coolest new computer trick going, IMO, and they're going to drop it? [10:41] Burgundavia: I think that's a good idea [10:41] ah, OK, provided it's still available to switch on... [10:41] there are some discoverablity issues [10:41] and generaly usablity "where has my program gone" ones [10:41] "discoverability" means "what the heck is this?" [10:41] yes [10:42] but I have some odd views.. like home as desktop :) [10:42] yeah, I can see that. I still like it, tho [10:42] HrdwrBoB: we've argued about that already tonight... [10:42] ;) [10:42] yeah :P [10:43] see http://evolvedoo.sourceforge.net/abstract/#2 for another take on it [10:44] interesting - I'm still not convinced that it needs doing... [10:45] it doesn't NEED doing - it's just my opinion that it's better (in that it Makes More Sense) but eh [10:45] of more interesting note is that if you mouse over an mp3, it starts previewing and when you delete it with the delete key it keeps playing [10:46] now that's an entertaining bug... heh [10:46] jsgotangco, jdub I have to crash. Feel free to add more stuff to the todo/ the page itself or fire an email to the list. [10:46] ok [10:46] see you later [10:55] brb === jsgotangco [n=user@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:35] mdke: awake? [11:35] yes :) [11:35] morning [11:36] you've been quiet lately :) [11:36] its unnatural [11:37] jsgotangco, as I said, I'm at the computer less so I'm quieter on irc [11:37] but I'm still checking it and emails [11:39] is there a meeting tomorrow? [11:39] gf still around? [11:39] jsgotangco, yes [11:39] we're both looking for jobs [11:39] oh god i totally forgot about it [11:39] and I'm looking for a house [11:39] hence the quiet :) [11:41] what you think of the new direction of Quick Tour? [11:42] i think it will be a good document [11:42] i don't see why it should replace the quickguide [11:42] it's totally different [11:42] why not make them both? [11:43] time [11:44] but the quickguide is already done no? [11:44] needs thorough editing though [11:45] ah [11:45] what about the relationship between quick tour and about ubuntu? [11:45] the former is to some extent a subset of the latter [11:46] if you scrollback it can probably be included in benefit 3 [11:47] what is that? [11:54] brb === enrico [n=enrico@debian/developer/enrico] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:25] night === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@bl5-49-46.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Mez [n=Mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@host-66-202-95-170.spr.choiceone.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@host-66-202-95-170.spr.choiceone.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:05] hi all === markoni [n=markotas@krt.tmd.ns.ac.yu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:08] hello mgalvin === poningru [n=poningru@pool-71-243-237-24.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:08] hey mpt [04:09] hiya [04:10] mgalvin, did you get anywhere with packaging ubuntu-doc? [04:12] mdke: hi, i looked at it quickly a while ago and saw that some work was done on it, i didn't get a chance to build a working package... if we need/are ready for one i can jump back into it and get it built [04:13] i dunno if we are ready for one now, but I was just wondering about it [04:14] we have some time between string freeze and release so it can be sorted out then probably [04:14] we need to consider l10n too [04:15] ok, i will take a look at it again soon anyway so that when we need it, it will be ready === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:28] morning [04:29] morning jjesse [04:29] is it afternoon for you? :) [04:29] 10:30am here in NY :) [04:30] same for here in mi [04:30] i never remember what time zones people are in [04:31] wow, two people in the same time zone, who would have thought (for this team anyway ;) [04:31] grin especially a US time zone === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Mez [n=Mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin needs food === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@bl5-49-46.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Fui] === robitaille [n=daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [n=seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Mez [n=Mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === skora [n=skora@24-50-193-209.clvdoh.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Praetorian1986 [n=sander@ip51ccf0d1.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === cat [n=bla@unaffiliated/cat] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Mez [n=Mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === avanspronsen [n=andrewv@Toronto-HSE-ppp3866886.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:44] ouch, openoffice, X and bunch of smaller stuff. 160mb to download === Mez [n=Mez@cpc2-lich4-3-0-cust115.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:56] hey does ubunto have a handbook like fbsd? [11:56] what sort of handbook? [11:56] well ubuntus [11:57] targeted at what audience?