[03:47] <Madpilot> anyone here?
[03:48] <HrdwrBoB> vaguely
[03:48] <Madpilot> that's about how I'm here, too... ;)
[06:36] <Burgundavia> hello
[06:36] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: hi
[06:36] <Burgundavia> did you see the draft I threw up
[06:36] <Burgundavia> very rough
[06:36] <jsgotangco> let me check 
[06:37] <jsgotangco> svn?
[06:37] <Burgundavia> no wiki
[06:37] <jsgotangco> ahh right
[06:37] <Madpilot> the draft quickguide? looks OK
[06:37] <jsgotangco> QuickTour?
[06:38] <Burgundavia> yes
[06:38] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: check RecentChanges, I added a bunch of search-engine-bait pages to Restricted
[06:39] <Burgundavia> cool
[06:39] <Burgundavia> thanks
[06:39] <Burgundavia> make rm a disambig
[06:39] <jsgotangco> hehe I LIKE IT
[06:40] <jsgotangco> marketing types will be happy with it
[06:41] <Madpilot> it's a good brochure page
[09:16] <Madpilot> anyone awake over here?
[09:16] <jsgotangco> zzz
[09:17] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:17] <jsgotangco> you can always holler Burgundavia he rarely sleeps
[09:18] <Burgundavia> hey
[09:19] <Burgundavia> check out quicktour right now
[09:19] <highvoltage> hi Madpilot.
[09:19] <highvoltage> i got up very early this morning.
[09:20] <jsgotangco> QuickTourDraft?
[09:20] <Madpilot> it's what, 0500 in South Africa? 0600?
[09:20] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, yes
[09:20] <highvoltage> it's 09:20 now.
[09:20] <highvoltage> i woke up at 4:25
[09:21] <highvoltage> which is about 5 hours ago :)
[09:21] <highvoltage> feels like it's time for lunch already...
[09:21] <Madpilot> hmm, I'd thought RSA was behind Zulu/UTM. nevermind!
[09:21] <highvoltage> nope, GMT+2. we're with the germans :)
[09:22] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: you can probably ask mpt's opinion on they layout
[09:22] <jsgotangco> it looks like a chessboard to me
[09:23] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:23] <Burgundavia> hopefully I can tweak it to be better spaced
[09:23] <Madpilot> it's ironic that you have to go back to table-layout hacks in wikis - no nice CSS layouts there!
[09:23] <Madpilot> how very 1990s...
[09:23] <jsgotangco> if its possible to simulate a mediawiki style picture box/caption, it could probably work
[09:23] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, I cannot see on this page how he turn off the border --> http://linuxguy.biz/screenshots.html
[09:24] <jsgotangco> although it would entail very serious css/xslt play on the source
[09:24] <jsgotangco> if its bound to be sourced anyways
[09:24] <Burgundavia> I am almost created this page as a subpage of my wikipedia user page
[09:24] <Burgundavia> s/am almost/almost
[09:25] <jsgotangco> since docbook is not presentation-centic as a format
[09:25] <Madpilot> "border=0" works on both CSS & tables. 
[09:25] <Madpilot> but I haven't looked at the source of either page
[09:26] <Burgundavia> gah
[09:26] <Burgundavia> leave it as is
[09:26] <jsgotangco> i would suggest adding power tools/usage though
[09:26] <Burgundavia> I need to mention the services and about me
[09:26] <Burgundavia> and then play with the order
[09:27] <jsgotangco> the power stuff should be at the end
[09:27] <highvoltage> Madpilot: the table hacks on wikis suck :(
[09:27] <jsgotangco> the showstoppers at the top
[09:27] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:27] <Burgundavia> I am going to move the laptop support stuff to the top
[09:27] <Burgundavia> or near it, I should say
[09:27] <jsgotangco> yep
[09:27] <jsgotangco> hmm
[09:28] <jsgotangco> is beagle to be included?
[09:28] <Burgundavia> no idea yet
[09:28] <jsgotangco> last i heard it was in danger of being not included
[09:28] <Burgundavia> it is
[09:28] <Burgundavia> should I mention menu-editing?
[09:28] <jsgotangco> nasty deps?
[09:28] <Burgundavia> no, not mature enough
[09:28] <jsgotangco> hmm
[09:28] <jsgotangco> smeg is ubuntu-specific so yeah why not
[09:29] <Burgundavia> ok
[09:29] <jsgotangco> should give credit to Amaranth for that
[09:29] <jsgotangco> he worked so hard for that app
[09:30] <Madpilot> http://linuxguy.biz/screenshots.html <-- this is an odd mix of tables & CSS
[09:30] <Burgundavia> it looks good
[09:30] <Burgundavia> the tables should probably be divs
[09:30] <Madpilot> he floats the images, but uses table cells to enforce the rest of the layout
[09:30] <jsgotangco> it works though
[09:30] <Madpilot> yeah, it does work. Pure CSS would be a bit better, but I'm a purist... :)
[09:31] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: its also a good idea to have different image sizes, although all of them should be a rectangle
[09:31] <Burgundavia> probably
[09:33] <jsgotangco> hmmm does A9 toolbar look evil to you?
[09:33] <Burgundavia> a9?
[09:34] <jsgotangco> the amazon search engine
[09:34] <jsgotangco> i like it because i can show a wikipedia result at the same time
[09:34] <jsgotangco> nice sample of AJAX cleverness
[09:34] <Burgundavia> my bloody left mouse button is dying
[09:35] <Madpilot> switch to a left-handed mouse layout, then left button = right button, therefore used slightly less!
[09:35] <Burgundavia> right, I mean left
[09:35] <Burgundavia> ;)
[09:36] <Madpilot> then get a job, so you can buy a new mouse...
[09:36] <Burgundavia> ouch
[09:36] <Burgundavia> we have from the 25th of august to the 8th of sept to take all screenshots
[09:36] <jsgotangco> yes
[09:36] <jsgotangco> pressure mounts
[09:37] <Burgundavia> and one month to finish writing
[09:37] <Madpilot> that's going to be a busy week...
[09:37] <jsgotangco> we are very much behind
[09:37] <Burgundavia> don't think so
[09:37] <jsgotangco> well ok im very much behind on cookbook
[09:37] <Burgundavia> well, you did just start
[09:37] <jsgotangco> i dont think userguide is shippable
[09:37] <Burgundavia> nope
[09:38] <Burgundavia> any kde stuff shippable?
[09:38] <Burgundavia> the faqguide is
[09:38] <jsgotangco> so we end  up with quicktour and faqguide
[09:38] <Burgundavia> then we ship the faqguide as default yelp homepage
[09:38] <Madpilot> how do you upload a pic to the U wiki? I want to stick a terminal window screenie in BasicCommands
[09:38] <Burgundavia> more actions drop down
[09:38] <jsgotangco> kde no idea it seemed to have lost steam when i turned over kubuntu quickguide
[09:39] <Burgundavia> and froud vanished into thin air
[09:39] <Burgundavia> although he is writing a book about ubuntu
[09:39] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: "More Actions - Attachments"?
[09:39] <jsgotangco> but i think quick tour and faqguide are good enough
[09:39] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, yes
[09:39] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, yes
[09:40] <Madpilot> thanks. now I need to reset my desktop to default for the screenshot...
[09:40] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, xnest
[09:40] <Madpilot> x-what?
[09:40] <Burgundavia> install xnest
[09:40] <Burgundavia> then create another user
[09:41] <Burgundavia> and login with them in xnest
[09:41] <jsgotangco> in a deeper thought, the next focus is harness existing docs and have them seen approriately instead of writing more docs
[09:41] <Burgundavia> to be honest, after people graduate fromt eh faq, they are likely to know how to google
[09:41] <Madpilot> gack. easier just to switch Gnome's themes briefly! interesting thought, tho
[09:41] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: right
[09:41] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, if you are going to be taking more screenshots, it is worth it
[09:42] <jsgotangco> its quite easy but can take time
[09:42] <Madpilot> just one terminal one right now... xnest can wait
[09:43] <Burgundavia> Microsoft buys in Wal-Mart talent <-- that sums up the current state of MS right there
[09:44] <Burgundavia> The Ubuntu Express installer that is being developed (and hopefully will
[09:44] <Burgundavia> be the default Breezy installer) includes such functionality.
[09:44] <Burgundavia> Ubuntu and any derived distro will be able to define a collection of
[09:44] <Burgundavia> images to be shown during the 15 minutes (aprox) of installation. This
[09:44] <Burgundavia> can be a combination of a GNOME tour (KDE tour for Kubuntu) plus
[09:44] <Burgundavia> highlights of the main applications that are being installed.
[09:44] <Burgundavia> sorry for the flood
[09:45] <Burgundavia> we need to plan for this
[09:45] <jsgotangco> ojeda's email?
[09:45] <jsgotangco> oh installer
[09:45] <Burgundavia> to ubuntu-devel from Quim gil
[09:46] <Madpilot> XP does something similar, doesn't it?
[09:46] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:46] <Madpilot> last time we installed XP, I seem to recall we went out for beer while it was grinding away...
[09:46] <Burgundavia> do we want that stuff to be the quick tour?
[09:46] <Burgundavia> that is about 15 minutes of stuff I have
[09:47] <Burgundavia> 45 secs each
[09:48] <Burgundavia> mentioned our effort in that thread
[09:48] <jsgotangco> i think its only applicable in an installer guide instead of a quick tour
[09:49] <Burgundavia> our quick tour?
[09:49] <jsgotangco> yeah
[09:49] <Burgundavia> not really
[09:49] <Burgundavia> makes a good marketing webpage as well
[09:49] <Burgundavia> ala the davyd thing and that other one
[09:49] <jsgotangco> but your quicktour can only bee seen once installed
[09:50] <jsgotangco> unless you publish it on a page
[09:50] <jsgotangco> or a pdf
[09:50] <Burgundavia> I intend to
[09:50] <jsgotangco> its useful in a brochure though
[09:50] <Burgundavia> and each distinct section could go in that installer
[09:50] <Burgundavia> not perfect, but good enough for breezy
[09:51] <jsgotangco> would it be nice on 1st boot the quick tour opens
[09:51] <Burgundavia> that would be nice
[09:51] <Burgundavia> maybe hack the upgrader to show the same thing?
[09:52] <jsgotangco> good idea i totally forgot about upgrade paths
[09:52] <Burgundavia> don't know if it is doable at this late stage
[09:52] <Madpilot> which Help page has the images stuff?
[09:52] <Burgundavia> attachment:YourImage.png
[09:53] <Burgundavia> that adds it
[09:53] <Burgundavia> images are specific to one page, unlike mediawiki
[09:53] <Madpilot> got that - what about formatting and stuff? float:right;border:0 and all that?
[09:53] <Burgundavia> HelpOnTables
[09:54] <Madpilot> thanks
[09:58] <Madpilot> dog, what a *hack* wiki markup is. can't we just use normal XHTML/CSS tags? please?
[09:58] <Burgundavia> mediawiki markup is quite nice
[09:58] <jsgotangco> yes
[09:58] <Madpilot> I'd be done this image insertion already if I could use real markup!
[09:58] <jsgotangco> although moin can be simpler
[09:58] <Burgundavia> much less hacky
[09:59] <Madpilot> is the only way to float:right with an image to stick it into a table?
[09:59] <jsgotangco> you can probably go back to zwiki hell though
[09:59] <Madpilot> I can't see how I associate the attachment:image bit with actual markup...
[09:59] <Burgundavia> no idea
[09:59] <Burgundavia> you need to wrap the attachment in a table
[09:59] <Burgundavia> and then style that
[09:59] <Madpilot> you're kidding? what a horrible hack
[10:00] <jsgotangco> its the wikiwiki way
[10:00] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:00] <Burgundavia> no, it is the moin way
[10:00] <jsgotangco> oh right
[10:00] <jsgotangco> mediawiki has nicer image sytling
[10:00] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, speak of the devil, sean returns
[10:00] <jsgotangco> styling
[10:00] <jsgotangco> wa?
[10:01] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, check you inbox
[10:01] <Madpilot> bah. styling later. there's a screenshot here now: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BasicCommands
[10:01] <jsgotangco> he's fixing the userguide
[10:01] <jsgotangco> kde userguide
[10:08] <Burgundavia> hey
[10:08] <jdub> ahr
[10:08] <jsgotangco> aye
[10:08] <jdub> dudes, i am excited :)
[10:08] <jdub> this is so much what the quickguide should be :-)
[10:08] <jsgotangco> desktop showstoppers
[10:09] <jsgotangco> yeah total rewrite
[10:09] <Burgundavia> the idea had been percolating through my head since we talked jdub
[10:10] <jsgotangco> i got convinced further when Burgundavia showed me the linuxguy.biz link
[10:10] <Burgundavia> I was lucky that jsgotangco bought into the idea
[10:10] <jdub> who is linuxguy.biz?
[10:11] <Burgundavia> http://linuxguy.biz/screenshots.html
[10:11] <Burgundavia> he sells ubuntu to non-techies
[10:11] <Burgundavia> our parents, sisters, brothers, etc.
[10:11] <jdub> yeah, 'cos that page is rad
[10:11] <jdub> so for the tour, "intuitive interface" is a bit too generic
[10:11] <Burgundavia> I would buy ubuntu if I saw that page
[10:12] <jdub> perhaps it would be good to split up the tour into two parts
[10:12] <Burgundavia> "clear menus"
[10:12] <jdub> 1. general ubuntu benefits (probably ongoing)
[10:12] <Burgundavia> ubuntu in general and new in breezy?
[10:12] <jsgotangco> basic/advanced?
[10:12] <jdub> 2. new release benefits (changing with each release)
[10:12] <Burgundavia> ok
[10:13] <jdub> so 1. would include "easy software update"
[10:13] <Burgundavia> it sort of is, but I haven't really fleshed that out
[10:13] <jsgotangco> 2. can also serve as a changelog / whats new page?
[10:13] <Madpilot> Hmmm. General Ubuntu Benefits: 1. Free. 2. Free. 3. Have we mentioned that it's Free?  ;)
[10:13] <Madpilot> sorry, I'll go back to Minesweeper now...
[10:13] <jdub> Madpilot: yes, the "ubuntu commitment" could be one whole page
[10:14] <jdub> and that's definitely ubuntu-benefit-ongoing :-)
[10:14] <jdub> Burgundavia: perhaps writing out the list of benefits would be a good start
[10:14] <jdub> just as simple bullet points
[10:15] <jsgotangco> hmm lycoris did something similar like this before
[10:15] <jdub> we could start with BreezyGoals
[10:16] <jdub> - edubuntu -> not really an ubuntu user benefit
[10:16] <jsgotangco> yeah
[10:16] <jsgotangco> Bluetooth support
[10:16] <jdub> + laptopmission -> "ubuntu works great on your laptop hardware!"
[10:17] <jdub> - oeminstaller -> not really an ubuntu user benefit
[10:17] <jdub> + thinclientintegration -> "run thin clients out of the box! <see documentation>"
[10:17] <Burgundavia> added to the list of Todo
[10:17] <Burgundavia> further stuff?
[10:17] <Burgundavia> jdub, I had thought of moving the latop stuff to a prominent section
[10:17] <Burgundavia> but am unsure about features that might not make it (nm and gnome-power)
[10:18] <jdub> +/- launchpadintegration -> hrm, could be pimped as user benefit, contribute to ubuntu, etc
[10:18] <jdub> + audiocdburning -> serpentine is a good feature in general
[10:18] <jdub> - audioinfrastructure -> not really a user benefit ("huh? sound works? well, ah, great... i guess")
[10:18] <Burgundavia> might be worth a one liner
[10:19] <jdub> + bluetoothsupport -> ubuntu talks to your phone
[10:19] <jdub> Burgundavia: not really, it rarely pays to talk about expectations as benefits ;)
[10:19] <Burgundavia> is that going to make it?
[10:19] <jdub> dunno
[10:19] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:20] <Burgundavia> I am in a bind, because of the stuff that might not make it
[10:20] <jdub> yeah
[10:20] <jdub> work with janew on that
[10:20] <jsgotangco> hmm
[10:20] <jdub> will be good for pressure ;)
[10:20] <jdub> anyway, so goals page is a good place to start for 2nd group stuff
[10:20] <jdub> the new gnome features can also be helpful
[10:21] <jdub> improved file management is a good one from 2.12
[10:21] <Burgundavia> I cribbed quite heavily from davyds excellent stuff
[10:21] <Burgundavia> gnome should promote his work more
[10:21] <jdub> quite a few of linuxguy ones fit into the 1st group
[10:21] <jdub> for instance, gaim should always be in there as a user benefit
[10:22] <jdub> "talk to ALL your friends in one easy to use interface"
[10:22] <Burgundavia> ok
[10:22] <jdub> OOo is a good one
[10:22] <Burgundavia> already there
[10:22] <jdub> a page about GNOME in general
[10:22] <Burgundavia> "the power of gnome"?
[10:22] <jdub> good ones already about software management and installation
[10:23] <jdub> Burgundavia: perhaps push the usability, accessibility and i18n benefits
[10:23] <Burgundavia> glad niran didn't go awol on that
[10:23] <jsgotangco> automatic updateds and stuff
[10:23] <jsgotangco> hmm
[10:23] <Burgundavia> "built on the highly usable and powerful Gnome desktop?"
[10:23] <jsgotangco> mednu editing?
[10:23] <Burgundavia> s/?"/'?
[10:23] <jdub> also flagging some of these things as available for windows *right off the live cd* would be cool
[10:23] <jdub> Burgundavia: powerful doesn't mean anything, easier not to say it :)
[10:24] <jdub> see www.gnome.org/about/
[10:24] <jdub> jsgotangco: hard to sell expectation as a benefit :)
[10:25] <Burgundavia> for LanguagePackRoadmap, there is a gui tool now, no?
[10:25] <jdub> yeah
[10:25] <jdub> haven't seen it yet though
[10:25] <jdub> oh, here we go
[10:25] <jdub> oof
[10:25] <jdub> ouch
[10:26] <Burgundavia> pda, soundevents and printing went nowhere?
[10:26] <jdub> have you been in touch with linuxguy?
[10:27] <Burgundavia> nope
[10:27] <jdub> ok
[10:27] <jdub> emailing now
[10:28] <Burgundavia> what about?
[10:28] <jdub> hi, love your page, want to help out in ubuntu/gnome?
[10:28] <Burgundavia> ah
[10:29] <Burgundavia> jdub, language-selector is already there
[10:29] <jdub> yeah, i just looked at it (oof, ouch above)
[10:32] <jsgotangco> hmm what about photoalbums and stuff
[10:32] <jsgotangco> like plugging in a digicam
[10:33] <jdub> jsgotangco: a 'just works' hardware angle?
[10:33] <jsgotangco> yeah
[10:33] <jsgotangco> usb sticks, wlan sticks, etc
[10:34] <Burgundavia> is mono a feature?
[10:34] <Burgundavia> oo2?
[10:34] <Burgundavia> sure
[10:34] <jdub> OOo is, in general -> "complete office suite, compatible with common document formats"
[10:34] <jdub> mono isn't, really
[10:34] <jsgotangco> powe user/developer benefits?
[10:35] <jdub> jsgotangco: probably best to avoid those, unless they're deeply, deeply cool
[10:35] <Burgundavia> has SystemUpgradeTool gone anywhere?
[10:36] <jsgotangco> these are mostly desktop showcases at the moment
[10:38] <Burgundavia> I have added our notes to the ToDo section at the bottom
[10:40] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, ironically, there is a thread on -devel about dropping the workspace switcher
[10:40] <Madpilot> you mean the virtual desktop thingie?
[10:40] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:41] <HrdwrBoB> I used to use workspaces - I now use windowshade mode more
[10:41] <Burgundavia> just for the default desktop, you can still add it after
[10:41] <Madpilot> coolest new computer trick going, IMO, and they're going to drop it?
[10:41] <HrdwrBoB> Burgundavia: I think that's a good idea
[10:41] <Madpilot> ah, OK, provided it's still available to switch on...
[10:41] <Burgundavia> there are some discoverablity issues
[10:41] <Burgundavia> and generaly usablity "where has my program gone" ones
[10:41] <Madpilot> "discoverability" means "what the heck is this?"
[10:41] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:42] <HrdwrBoB> but I have some odd views.. like home as desktop :)
[10:42] <Madpilot> yeah, I can see that. I still like it, tho
[10:42] <Madpilot> HrdwrBoB: we've argued about that already tonight...
[10:42] <Madpilot> ;)
[10:42] <HrdwrBoB> yeah :P
[10:43] <HrdwrBoB> see http://evolvedoo.sourceforge.net/abstract/#2 for another take on it
[10:44] <Madpilot> interesting - I'm still not convinced that it needs doing...
[10:45] <HrdwrBoB> it doesn't NEED doing - it's just my opinion that it's better (in that it Makes More Sense) but eh
[10:45] <HrdwrBoB> of more interesting note is that if you mouse over an mp3, it starts previewing and when you delete it with the delete key it keeps playing
[10:46] <Madpilot> now that's an entertaining bug... heh
[10:46] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, jdub I have to crash. Feel free to add more stuff to the todo/ the page itself or fire an email to the list. 
[10:46] <jsgotangco> ok
[10:46] <jsgotangco> see you later
[10:55] <jsgotangco> brb
[11:35] <jsgotangco> mdke: awake?
[11:35] <mdke> yes :)
[11:35] <mdke> morning
[11:36] <jsgotangco> you've been quiet lately :)
[11:36] <jsgotangco> its unnatural
[11:37] <mdke> jsgotangco, as I said, I'm at the computer less so I'm quieter on irc
[11:37] <mdke> but I'm still checking it and emails
[11:39] <mdke> is there a meeting tomorrow?
[11:39] <jsgotangco> gf still around?
[11:39] <mdke> jsgotangco, yes
[11:39] <mdke> we're both looking for jobs
[11:39] <jsgotangco> oh god i totally forgot about it
[11:39] <mdke> and I'm looking for a house
[11:39] <mdke> hence the quiet :)
[11:41] <jsgotangco> what you think of the new direction of Quick Tour?
[11:42] <mdke> i think it will be a good document
[11:42] <mdke> i don't see why it should replace the quickguide
[11:42] <mdke> it's totally different
[11:42] <mdke> why not make them both?
[11:43] <jsgotangco> time
[11:44] <mdke> but the quickguide is already done no?
[11:44] <jsgotangco> needs thorough editing though
[11:45] <mdke> ah
[11:45] <mdke> what about the relationship between quick tour and about ubuntu?
[11:45] <mdke> the former is to some extent a subset of the latter
[11:46] <jsgotangco> if you scrollback it can probably be included in benefit 3
[11:47] <mdke> what is that?
[11:54] <mdke> brb
[12:25] <jsgotangco> night
[04:05] <mgalvin> hi all
[04:08] <mpt> hello mgalvin
[04:08] <mgalvin> hey mpt
[04:09] <mdke> hiya
[04:10] <mdke> mgalvin, did you get anywhere with packaging ubuntu-doc?
[04:12] <mgalvin> mdke: hi, i looked at it quickly a while ago and saw that some work was done on it, i didn't get a chance to build a working package... if we need/are ready for one i can jump back into it and get it built
[04:13] <mdke> i dunno if we are ready for one now, but I was just wondering about it
[04:14] <mdke> we have some time between string freeze and release so it can be sorted out then probably
[04:14] <mdke> we need to consider l10n too
[04:15] <mgalvin> ok, i will take a look at it again soon anyway so that when we need it, it will be ready
[04:28] <jjesse> morning
[04:29] <mgalvin> morning jjesse
[04:29] <jjesse> is it afternoon for you? :)
[04:29] <mgalvin> 10:30am here in NY :)
[04:30] <jjesse> same for here in mi
[04:30] <jjesse> i never remember what time zones people are in 
[04:31] <mgalvin> wow, two people in the same time zone, who would have thought (for this team anyway ;)
[04:31] <jjesse> grin especially a US time zone
[11:44] <Burgundavia> ouch, openoffice, X and bunch of smaller stuff. 160mb to download
[11:56] <cat> hey does ubunto have a handbook like fbsd?
[11:56] <Burgundavia> what sort of handbook?
[11:56] <cat> well ubuntus
[11:57] <Burgundavia> targeted at what audience?