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[01:50] (fabbione/#edubuntu) test
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[01:50] (fabbione/#edubuntu) starting from now
[02:06] <Petaris> Hello mhz
[02:06] <mhz> hey, Petaris 
[02:07] <ogra> JaneW, Petaris is our first real edubuntu user ;)
[02:07] <Petaris> still some work to be done though
[02:07] <JaneW> yay :)
[02:07] <mhz> indeed
[02:07] <JaneW> Petaris: how's it looking?
[02:08] <ogra> JaneW, he uses his own desktop environment on top....
[02:08] <Petaris> JaneW: Well I got a dumb-client up and running with icewm but haven't gotten farther than that
[02:08] <JaneW> oic
[02:08] <Petaris> I will need to do some desktop tweaking
[02:09] <Petaris> also I want to use auto login and have all users use the same storage space
[02:09] <Petaris> locking down the desktop so changes are not allowed will also be nessesary
[02:10] <Petaris> but it is a good first step
[02:11] <Petaris> Oh yeah, I almost forgot I got OpenOffice.org2 installed as well
[02:11] <mhz> I have tried 3 times, unsuccessfully
[02:11] <mhz> well, last install kind of worked
[02:12] <Petaris> install of OO.org or of the ltsp?
[02:12] <mhz> but took for ever to be up and running
[02:12] <mhz> edubuntu
[02:12] <Petaris> ahh
[02:12] <ogra> mhz, http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13496 
[02:13] <Petaris> Hey, on a side note icewm loads immediatly (no wait time after login)
[02:13] <ogra> we are currently working o this one... that blocks the language pack installation and breaks the install
[02:13] <mhz> yes, icewm is quick
[02:13] <mhz> Petaris: however, fluxbox is faster, AFAIK
[02:13] <mhz> :)
[02:13] <ogra> mhz, did you use the default edubuntu-desktop install in your tests ?
[02:14] <mhz> I couldn't because there was a powercut downhere and I only got to 89%
[02:14] <mhz> of the installation
[02:14] <Petaris> ogra: is there a way to force the install on the languagepack?
[02:14] <mhz> installation = after rebooting
[02:14] <Petaris> like a -f flag
[02:15] <ogra> Petaris, noe, but there is already a fix... it will be in the next CD build
[02:15] <ogra> nope even
[02:15] <Petaris> ok
[02:15] <mhz> ogra: despite of the issues, you have been doing a good job
[02:16] <ogra> thanks... others see that different :) 
[02:16] <mhz> the good thing is I finally have a thin laptop running Ubuntu (at least). I installed FROM WINDOWS :D
[02:16] <ogra> wow...
[02:17] <mhz> ogra: nah, "show me the code"... that's what really matters
[02:17] <ogra> i which PXE wireless would work
[02:17] <mhz> hehe
[02:17] <ogra> whish even
[02:18] <Petaris> What are you guys using for dumb-clients?
[02:18] <mhz> it took me 2 days to actually understand a very stupid thing from HowTo's (1st Ubuntu wiki was outdated, 2nd 'append' means 'add to the end')
[02:19] <ogra> i wouldnt call that dumb *g*
[02:19] <Petaris> ahh
[02:19] <Petaris> I use solarpc units
[02:19] <ogra> its my only PXE capable machine
[02:19] <Petaris> http://www.solarpc.com/
[02:19] <Petaris> See there
[02:19] <Petaris> the company has been great to work with
[02:20] <ogra> Petaris, cool
[02:21] <Petaris> I ended up getting the server, 25 clients, monitors, keyboards, mice, and a gigabit switch (24pt)
[02:21] <mhz> WOW
[02:21] <Petaris> all for under $8,000 USD
[02:21] <mhz> cool
[02:22] <Petaris> The server has a single Opteron 242 and 4GB ram, with a pair of 160GB 7200rpm sata drives in raid 1
[02:23] <Petaris> the server is dual opteron capable though and there is a whole second bank for ram
[02:23] <Petaris> I consider it a sweet deal
[02:25] <mhz> ogra: i don't mean to push you at all, but I am running out of time with the timing for a presentation/demo. The congress in Peru is on the 23rd and ONE of the many things I have to prepare (and maybe the most important missing) is a Edubuntu Server. Do yo think I can download a 'working beta' (issues I can avoid before I sit down to actually install)??
[02:25] <mhz> Petaris: any chances you can wiki that info?
[02:26] <Petaris> mhz: don't try to use a fake or on-board raid
[02:26] <ogra> mhz, if you can live with one day delay, yes... i dont know how long the new CD build will take... but i guess tomorrow mornings daily should be installable
[02:26] <Petaris> mhz: which info?  The server specs?
[02:27] <mhz> ogra: thank you very much for your understanding
[02:27] <ogra> mhz, i sadly cant speed it up more...
[02:27] <mhz> Petaris: yep, among other things. Your specs, how you did it, how you felt, how you feel about it, etc
[02:28] <Petaris> mhz: are you doing the install in front of them, or just demoing it after
[02:28] <mhz> ogra: don't worry, I 100% understand you. My 2 machines (1 celeron desktop and 1 thin 500 MHz laptop) work with 128 MB and have to deal with 5 powercuts a day :(
[02:28] <Petaris> mhz: any specific place it should go in the wiki (wiki.ubuntu.org?)
[02:29] <mhz> Petaris: I should start demoing. Next day, I should present a workshop
[02:29] <Petaris> mhz: but you are not installing in front of them right?
[02:29] <ogra> mhz, as soon as mdz wakes up, he'll be on a CD building spree... i'm very confident he'll use the whip at the right places to make it happen today :)
[02:30] <Petaris> so a bit more complicated install could be done with out makeing the system look bad
[02:30] <mhz> Petaris: wiki/ nop. The good thing about wikis is that you just visit the wiki, login, and write TheNameOfYourPage after the / on the url area
[02:30] <mhz> the real wiki concept is fully 'horizontal' wrtiting or page creation
[02:31] <Petaris> ahh
[02:31] <mhz> (actually, that is the hardest thing to realize)
[02:31] <mhz> and, if Edubuntu people think your page is missplaces, the just assign it to a diff position
[02:32] <mhz> and you WILL always get to the page anyways
[02:32] <mhz> :)
[02:32] <Petaris> does launchpad.com share email addresses?
[02:32] <mhz> 'share'?
[02:32] <Petaris> yeah, with the public
[02:32] <Petaris> I don't want spam
[02:33] <mhz> hmmm, I guess you decide if email is shown or not
[02:34] <mhz> AFAIK, i doubt default is 'shown'
[02:34] <Petaris> alright
[02:35] <mhz> Petaris: thx. The thing is that 99% of the times, whatever we chat here it stays here
[02:35] <mhz> so important things as your experience, it is cool to be wikied
[02:36] <Petaris> I don't have all that much experiance on ltsp, so it will be new for me, I am very curious about the load on the server with 25 active clients
[02:37] <mhz> hhehe, fisrt impressions are as valid and interesting as experienced expectations
[02:37] <ogra> you need much mem :)
[02:37] <mhz> LOL
[02:38] <mhz> Petaris: fisrt impressions give edubuntu devels more ideas on how to improve something they do
[02:38] <Petaris> Yeah, Im not sure if the 1.8GHz Opteron and 4GB RAM can pull it off with 25 sessions of firefox, openoffice.org, and gimp
[02:39] <Petaris> but we will see
[02:39] <mhz> Petaris: c'mon! that's a lot 
[02:39] <mhz> huge machine
[02:40] <ogra> Petaris, i know highvoltage builds such environments, according to him 4GB are good
[02:41] <mhz> indeed
[02:41] <mhz> Petaris: it all depends on how much you want stations to demand from the server
[02:42] <Petaris> ogra: yeah, I emailed Paul Nelson at Riverdale high school about it a while ago
[02:42] <Petaris> He thought it would be fine but suggested a second proc
[02:42] <Petaris> but we will see
[02:43] <Petaris> Paul is the head of K12LTSP
[02:43] <Petaris> http://k12ltsp.org/contents.html
[02:43] <Petaris> ogra: he may be able to help you guys out a bit
[02:44] <ogra> i think mdz already works with the guys in #ltsp, i guess Paul is hanging around there
[02:45] <Petaris> oh, I don't know about that, just that I've always found him helpful
[02:45] <highvoltage> Petaris: we use Xeon 3ghz with 2GB RAM in tuxlabs with 20 computer
[02:46] <Petaris> highvoltage: dual proc or single?
[02:49] <Petaris> is there a reason we need to use gdm?
[02:49] <highvoltage> Petaris: single
[02:49] <highvoltage> gdm is cool. what else would you want to use?
[02:49] <Petaris> xdm
[02:49] <Petaris> it is small and light
[02:50] <highvoltage> it is, but it won't be popular in schools.
[02:50] <ogra> who uses gdm ? 
[02:50] <Petaris> I'm just wondering if ldm is dependant on gdm
[02:50] <highvoltage> ogra: we use gdm, in edubuntu 
[02:50] <ogra> we use ldm in our ltsp implementation
[02:50] <highvoltage> :)
[02:50] <highvoltage> ah, right.
[02:50] <ogra> highvoltage, edubuntu doesnt :)
[02:50] <Petaris> ogra: so ldm is standalone then, right?
[02:51] <highvoltage> how's ldm? i think i'll go look for a site.
[02:51] <ogra> Petaris, ldm is a complete new login manager implementation in python
[02:51] <ogra> highvoltage, there is no site.... 
[02:51] <ogra> its included in the ltsp package...
[02:51] <Petaris> by the by ldm needs to be prettified, is there any easy way to tweak how it looks?
[02:52] <highvoltage> ogra: is ldm only used in edubuntu atm? i haven't seen it anywhere before.
[02:52] <Petaris> brb
[02:52] <ogra> i'll write some instructions... you have to chroot into the ltsp environment and install another gtk engine to change the theme... for now we go with our default theme only
[02:52] <ogra> highvoltage, mdz wrote it... i wrote the gui...
[02:52] <ogra> its not fifnished yet
[02:53] <highvoltage> wow.
[02:53] <ogra> and, yes, only in edubuntu ltsp
[02:53] <highvoltage> i've just started the download of the new cd.
[02:53] <highvoltage> i really want to see this.
[02:54] <ogra> highvoltage, wait for the next CD or rsync the updae to it... the current one is still broken... next is likely to be installable
[02:54] <highvoltage> how does it's theming work? I suppose it won't use something big like the xml layouts that gdm uses.
[02:54] <highvoltage> is it diffult to fix? the last one i downloaded i could get more or less booting.
[02:55] <ogra> i hardcoded the theme engine it uses.... but you can change the gtkrc... i'll build a config file for the theme soon...
[02:55] <ogra> it somehow looks like the gdm classic greeter with a theme...
[02:57] <highvoltage> aah. so you get a background and a logo? :P
[02:58] <ogra> currently a black background and a login box
[03:03] <mhz> ogra: once edubuntu is installed, is there a GUI for LSTP or it is just a matter of running ltsp tools? Also, after installing, where do we set the option to install edubuntu onto the clients?
[03:04] <Petaris> ok, back
[03:04] <Petaris> I had to make coffee
[03:04] <Petaris> :)
[03:04] <ogra> mhz, there is no option to install anything on the clients... why would you want that ? 
[03:05] <ogra> they netboot from the server and open a ssh tunnel.... through this they run a x session on the server
[03:05] <mhz> yes
[03:05] <ogra> i started a admin tool, since teachertool doesnt work for us, but it doesnt look like i have enough time left to get it ready...
[03:06] <Petaris> hrmm
[03:06] <mhz> I may have understood wrong, but I do rememeber after last wed meeting here, someone mentioned it is possible to install linux onto the clients using Edubuntu
[03:07] <ogra> you can do a standalone workstation install (for teachers at home) and a standalone ltsp server install for now in this release...
[03:07] <mhz> ?
[03:07] <ogra> oter features will be added in breezy+1
[03:08] <ogra> mhz, our target is to have a standalone ltsp/diskles client install out of the box... additionally you can install a version without the server stuff thats a standalone workstation
[03:09] <mhz> yes, I get that part
[03:09] <Petaris> ok, first thing to fix - Fonts in firefox
[03:09] <ogra> we dont support any mid sized clients yet
[03:10] <ogra> i.e. ltsp clients with disks... you will need to do that manually in this release.... it will be a feature of the next one
[03:10] <Petaris> ogra: the firefox font issue is because of the languagepack issue right?
[03:10] <ogra> Petaris, i dont have it, so i dont know... buit its likely to be a ff/cairo problem... 
[03:15] <mhz> ogra: Aug 10 08:45:28 <Kamion>        you should be able to test netboot installs if you boot with apt-setup/universe=true, plus the other Edubuntu preseeds that are on the CD
[03:15] <mhz>  mhz: there's a netboot.tar.gz in /ubuntu/dists/breezy/main/installer-i386/current/images/ or somewhere like that in the archive
[03:15] <ogra> mhz, that was about how to work around the CD brakage at this time, it has nothing to do with client installations
[03:15] <mhz> that is still chineese to me
[03:16] <mhz> ahhhhh
[03:16] <mhz> so I am still forced to boot from CD
[03:16] <mhz> ?
[03:16] <mhz> or other media
[03:16] <mhz> or from Windows
[03:17] <ogra> ?? 
[03:17] <ogra> for the client ? 
[03:17] <mhz> yes
[03:17] <ogra> it boots via PXE from the network by default... you dont install anything on it
[03:17] <mhz> i know
[03:17] <ogra> asll installed stuff is on the server
[03:17] <mhz> but IF I need to install onto thinclients?
[03:17] <ogra> all even
[03:18] <ogra> you dont
[03:18] <mhz> I do
[03:18] <mhz> :)
[03:18] <mhz> LTSP is about not installing, I get that
[03:18] <ogra> if a privileged user installs something on the clients, he effectively installs on the server
[03:18] <mhz> but IF I do need to install linux on the clients?
[03:19] <ogra> why ? 
[03:19] <ogra> you dont need *any* OS on the clients
[03:19] <mhz> because in Chile, some schools come with MS windows (based on a stupid agreement with MS and Gov)
[03:19] <ogra> just a PXE capable network card... all your softeare is on the server
[03:20] <mhz> and some people still prefer to give Teachers and students the option to work on a network (LTSP would be great for that) and also to work off network (may take the pc home for a weekend)
[03:21] <mhz> for those OFF network, I'd need a quick install option
[03:22] <ogra> yes, the single workstation i mentioned before...
[03:22] <mhz> I am presenting a project to Chilean Gov. about giving Teachers laptops (600 MHz, 192 MB, 12 GB HDD)
[03:22] <ogra> its just not possible to combine it, you can only use either one... 
[03:22] <mhz> ok, I get that too
[03:22] <ogra> thats on our roadmap for breezy+1 as i said
[03:23] <mhz> but these thin laptops have only HD, no Cd nor Floppy
[03:23] <mhz> ok.
[03:23] <mhz> so let me see If I understand right this time:
[03:23] <Petaris> Anyone know if it is possible to get ltsp to authenticate off of ActiveDir?
[03:23] <ogra> ok, for these you can do a netboot install 
[03:23] <ogra> Petaris, not yet... also a breezy+1 feature...
[03:23] <mhz> ogra: now you got me confused again
[03:24] <mhz> :D
[03:24] <mhz> so let me see If I understand right this time:
[03:24] <mhz> Edubuntu is designed 100% LTSP,
[03:24] <Petaris> ogra: your kidding right?  You think it will be possible?
[03:24] <ogra> mhz, you can install a linux system over the network.... this info is totally independent from all edubuntu talk
[03:24] <ogra> you can use even a netboot image to install edubuntu
[03:25] <Petaris> ogra: I was seriously consider switching to eDirectory to be able to authenticate
[03:25] <ogra> but you cant use a standalone installed edubutnu system to connect to a ltsp server for now
[03:25] <mhz> ogra: yes, but to do that, clients still need to get to the server side and get it from there, otherwise, they continue booting from windows and therefore, no install will proceed
[03:26] <ogra> Petaris, we'll most likely have a LDAP/Kreberos environment in breezy+1 so it should be possible
[03:26] <mhz> so Edubuntu is ONLY LTSP so far, and may include Server Boot Install capabilities in the future
[03:26] <mhz> ogra: is that correct?
[03:26] <ogra> mhz, they need to boot the installer from the network... but thats only about installing, not about working
[03:26] <mhz> yes
[03:26] <Petaris> ogra: cool
[03:27] <mhz> ogra: and to do that, PXE is just the 1st step. the server side has to be preconfigured to provide the netboot files
[03:28] <ogra> yes
[03:28] <mhz> and that is not on this current Edubuntu scope, right?
[03:28] <ogra> its not in edubutnu scope at all... thats basic installation stuff...
[03:28] <mhz> yes
[03:28] <mhz> so I have finally cleared my confussion
[03:29] <mhz> sorry for the 'mess'
[03:29] <ogra> you just need the netboot image from the installer... what you install with it is up to you
[03:29] <mhz> hehehe
[03:29] <mhz> yes
[03:29] <Petaris> ogra: I uninstalled the mozilla-firefox package and installed the firefox package and now I have fonts
[03:29] <ogra> but it would probably a interesting idea to have a option on the server for that... we have a spec for network wide installs that may cove it
[03:30] <mhz> but still, for school options, that means I will have to provide 2 settings: Edubuntu (LTSP) and Debian BootServer
[03:30] <ogra> Petaris, hwere did you get mozilla-firefox ?? thats not a breezy package
[03:30] <mhz> ogra: please, understand that I am only talking from a Chilean teacher perspective
[03:30] <ogra> mhz, as an option...
[03:31] <ogra> why should i build a special boot server, ltsp has everything in place (tftp etc) it could be possible to have an option on the server, no need for a extra machine...
[03:32] <mhz> that was my initial idea that started this confussion
[03:32] <ogra> i'll consider it for breezy+1 but its not there now...
[03:32] <mhz> okidoki
[03:32] <ogra> and i think its covered by the mentioned spec
[03:32] <mhz> I am glad you clarified that to me
[03:32] <mhz> because I was designing my presentation based on that DUAL capability :D
[03:33] <mhz> and now it's only LTSP
[03:33] <ogra> s/now/currently
[03:33] <ogra> ;)
[03:33] <mhz> actually one of the openings was "the solution to schools lab and teachers problems"
[03:34] <mhz> it still is a solution, just not the total solution
[03:34] <mhz> but the begining
[03:34] <ogra> yes, its our first release.... we start small...
[03:35] <mhz> Basically, my concern is that "Edulinux" is being developed by the Gov and some people, based on RedHat.
[03:35] <mhz> In chile, we have set up a ubuntu community
[03:35] <ogra> over how many releases can you upgrade that without a complete reinstall ?
[03:36] <mhz> and a free software for education community. So Edubuntu was the ideal link
[03:36] <ogra> the big drawback of RPM based systems is the upgradebility
[03:36] <mhz> indeed
[03:36] <ogra> you can upgrade a debian system over several releases without even thinking about it... its just one command...
[03:37] <highvoltage> ogra: most rpm systems aren't too bad imho. you can even use apt. it still doesn't beat a debian system...
[03:37] <mhz> hence one of the projects I am on at the moment, was to actually provide Pcs + LSTP + InstallationServer + Support + Training
[03:37] <highvoltage> ogra: i think that's also an overstatement. i upgraded a potato box to sarge and did have few, minor issues.
[03:37] <mhz> all in one simple pack
[03:37] <ogra> highvoltage, the question is, does issuing "sudo apt-get dist-upgrade" and going away for 1h work ? 
[03:38] <ogra> highvoltage, yes, because you missed woody
[03:38] <mhz> ogra: good point
[03:38] <mhz> you need to go step by step
[03:38] <ogra> you need to upgrade to the next version, if you do that you mostly dont even need to touch the box, its ready after a reboot
[03:38] <highvoltage> ogra: i've done it before from FC1 to FC3 for a school, and it worked.
[03:39] <highvoltage> I also used it on a SuSE box from SuSE 9.0 to 9.3. that also went fine.
[03:39] <ogra> highvoltage, thats very rare
[03:39] <mhz> is 9.0 to 9.3 the same as 8.0 to 9.0 ??
[03:39] <ogra> (working SuSE upgrades)
[03:39] <highvoltage> ogra: i'm not arguing with you. I just think that it's a bit of an overstatement to say that you don't even have to think about it.
[03:39] <mhz> I mean in terms of version
[03:40] <highvoltage> there are often things to consider.
[03:40] <ogra> highvoltage, but its true
[03:40] <ogra> highvoltage, did you try to upgrade warty to hoary ? its 3 commands and you are set...
[03:40] <mhz> if you go from Xfree to x.org? yes, things to consider
[03:40] <ogra> no touching of the system at all
[03:40] <ogra> mhz, nope
[03:41] <highvoltage> mhz: xfree to xorg went smooth form me.
[03:41] <mhz> ogra: highvoltage: things to consider = 99% freedom to 100% freedom
[03:41] <mhz> :)
[03:42] <highvoltage> ogra: i've dist-upgraded between knoppix -> sarge -> sid -> warty -> back to sid again, without much problems. I have lots of faith in APT.
[03:42] <highvoltage> however,
[03:42] <ogra> mhz, highvoltage we (ubuntu) guaratee that upgardes between nonmodified releases work out of the box 
[03:42] <highvoltage> i've dist-upgraded on servers before and for some reasons postfix won't work.
[03:42] <highvoltage> and that needed some fixing.
[03:42] <mhz> I have gone from potato to woody with no issues, and from woody to sarge with no issues
[03:42] <ogra> highvoltage, if you use knoppix as a base your system is broken before you start
[03:42] <highvoltage> ogra: ok, i'll accept that.
[03:42] <Petaris> ogra: with apt
[03:43] <highvoltage> ogra: it is?
[03:43] <ogra> highvoltage, yes, a knoppix installation has not much to do with a debian system anymore... they just copy over the CD to HD ...
[03:43] <ogra> with a lot of incompatibility
[03:44] <ogra> since its not designed as a install system
[03:44] <highvoltage> ogra: the dpkg databases, etc are all still intact, and dist-upgrades to other debian systems went well for me.
[03:44] <highvoltage> but yes, i agree with you.
[03:45] <ogra> btw the path knoppix -> sarge -> sid -> warty cant work
[03:45] <highvoltage> ogra: i promise you it did.
[03:45] <ogra> you end up with a debian system with some warty packages
[03:45] <ogra> it didnt
[03:45] <ogra> you had a mixed system
[03:46] <highvoltage> okay. perhaps i did. now that i think of it, i remember seeing a knoppix in the init line when it booted.
[03:46] <ogra> sid is/was newer then warty except for a period of 2 months... apt doesnt downgrade without being forced
[03:46] <highvoltage> but the dist-upgrades did go fine, and the system looked and worked like an ordinary ubuntu machine.
[03:47] <highvoltage> ah, this was also more than a year ago.
[03:47] <ogra> yes, but you have mostly debian systems in there
[03:47] <highvoltage> or at least, when i upgraded to sid, that was before warty
[03:47] <ogra> i'm cursing people doing that a lot, because they send totally broken hwdb entrys to me that confuse everything (debians hal is newer, but missing all hwdb enhancements)
[03:48] <ogra> and that goes for the majority of packages...
[03:48] <highvoltage>  i don't do that on any machines anymore, though.
[03:48] <ogra> even if it looks like a ubuntu system, it will break heavily at one place or you end up with a plain debian
[03:49] <highvoltage> back then it was just upgrading the various systems that i had to ubuntu.
[03:49] <highvoltage> since then i've done some cleanups and re-installed.
[03:49] <ogra> one upgrade will pull in a wrong library... 
[03:49] <ogra> that will break everything...
[03:49] <highvoltage> will apt allow that though? i mean, it knows what versions of libraries programs need to run?
[03:50] <ogra> breezy will be eve worse ( but hopefully wont work at all) since we already use a new gcc and libc...
[03:50] <jsgotangco> yay
[03:50] <ogra> highvoltage, apt relies on the sanity of the archive... thats only guven if you dont mix your surces.list entrys between different distributors
[03:50] <highvoltage> that i understand. do you think ubuntu-debian compatibility will get worse, or better, as time goes by?
[03:51] <jsgotangco> i love to being in this growing confusion
[03:51] <ogra> they are two different things all devs shout very loud not to mix ubuntu and debian packages since warty is out... its proven to brak at some point
[03:52] <ogra> i.e. we use language packs, debian doesnt... that *must* break....
[03:53] <ogra> our libc is compiled with gcc, debian just starts that transition
[03:53] <ogra> s/gcc/gcc4
[03:53] !lilo:*! Hi all. We had some compile difficulties on the testnet and we're now ready to reup.
[03:53] <ogra> our c++ librarys have totally different binary names
[03:54] <highvoltage> long term though, is it likely to get worse, or better?
[03:54] <ogra> we have a totally different Xserver implementation
[03:54] <ogra> it will stay the same, dont use debian packages in ubuntu atll
[03:54] <ogra> all
[03:54] <highvoltage> i mean, debian might implement the language packs, etc too in the future, and they might plan their releases in such a way to maitain compatibility (big job probably)
[03:55] <ogra> we use our own build system, we'll never be 100% compatible... and our schedule doesnt match any debian schaduel so either we or they are bnewer
[03:55] <highvoltage> ok.
[03:56] <highvoltage> i accept it, but i'll admit that i don't like it.
[03:56] <jsgotangco> you can also think that we're too advanced for debian itself at the moment :)
[03:57] <ogra> its not possible to be binary compatible all over the place between the two different approaches... one is always ahead of the other.... debian is behind us currently, but will pass us after release
[03:58] <jsgotangco> yes but by then we have another one in development because we're alway in sid
[03:58] <ogra> jsgotangco, yes, i talk about releases
[03:58] <jsgotangco> ahh
[04:09] <Petaris> I liked portage far better than apt
[04:17] <Petaris> right, now to create a standard interface
[04:17] <Petaris> Where can I set-up default profile info for the dumb-clients
[04:18] <Petaris> I suppose I create a user and modify that profile then point all ltsp users at that profile?
[04:19] <Petaris> highvoltage: how do you handle logins?
[04:20] <Petaris> do you asign usernames and passwords, or do you have just one generic username/password or do you use autologin?
[04:20] <highvoltage> Petaris: nothing fancy. usually pam, sometimes a little NIS where appropriate, sometimes ldap.
[04:20] <highvoltage> in tuxlabs, we create default guest acounts
[04:20] <highvoltage> tux1, tux2, tux3, etc.
[04:20] <Petaris> ok
[04:21] <highvoltage> so that kids can start using the lab the minute we're done. after that the teachers and computer prefects need to add more users.
[04:21] <Petaris> do you have them login or does it just automatically login on boot
[04:21] <highvoltage> manually log in.
[04:21] <ogra> in edubuntu, just create the users with the user management tool from the admin desktop
[04:21] <ogra> every user you create has access ...
[04:21] <Petaris> what user managemnet tool?
[04:22] <Petaris> useradd?
[04:22] <Petaris> :p
[04:22] <ogra> sad
[04:22] <ogra> because that tool is tailored for ubuntu/edubuntu
[04:23] <ogra> install gnome-system-tools and use the user-admin tool
[04:23] <Petaris> useradd can be your friend too :)
[04:23] <ogra> you can have different profiles there
[04:23] <Petaris> ogra: will that install gnome as well?
[04:23] <ogra> sure, but adding a user tzo the right groups can be a PITA
[04:24] <ogra> gnome libs
[04:24] <Petaris> lets see, they need audio and what else?
[04:24] <Petaris> they don't need wheel
[04:24] <Petaris> or cdrom
[04:25] <Petaris> or burning
[04:25] <Petaris> hrm
[04:25] <Petaris> I think they only need audio unless there is an ltsp group
[04:26] <Petaris> highvoltage: do you use independant user profiles or do you have all accounts reference the same profile?
[04:26] <highvoltage> independent.
[04:26] <Petaris> or do you reference a template
[04:26] <Petaris> ahh
[04:27] <highvoltage> a template, called skeletux. although it's very messy at this stage.
[04:27] <Petaris> do you have a shared storage space?
[04:27] <highvoltage> yes.
[04:27] <Petaris> hmm
[04:27] <highvoltage> /home/shared, and there's a shortcut on the desktop to it, which is also a samba share.
[04:27] <Petaris> cool
[04:27] <Petaris> thats what I was thinking of doing
[04:28] <ogra> highvoltage, would you like to take a look at sabayon ? we'll most likely use it for the privileged stuff....
[04:29] <highvoltage> ogra: okay, i made a note of it. i have meetings tonight and tomorrow night, so i'll be able to look at it on thursday.
[04:29] <jsgotangco> ogra: are we including sabayon?
[04:29] <ogra> highvoltage, take your time... it would just be nice to have somebody additionally looking at it... i'll do it anyway...
[04:30] <highvoltage> ogra: JaneW says you're taking too much on for yourself :)
[04:30] <ogra> jsgotangco, a thing i'll still have to discuss with mdz, but its the tool that comes near a kiosk mode  :)
[04:30] <jsgotangco> indeed
[04:31] <highvoltage> ok. gtg now. take care everyone!
[04:31] <ogra> ciao highvoltage 
[04:31] <jsgotangco> ciao
[04:31] <highvoltage> ciao ogra and jsgotangco 
[04:31] <Petaris> latter highvoltage
[04:31] <highvoltage> l8r Petaris 
[04:32] <Petaris> some day I really need to learn how to spell, hehe
[04:33] <ogra> Petaris, edubuntu will come with a lot of spellchecking capabilitys ;)
[04:33] <Petaris> haha, good
[04:35] <JaneW> nod
[04:36] <Petaris> http://www.projectblackdog.com/site/product.html
[04:36] <Petaris> check this out
[04:37] <Petaris> off topic I know, but cool none the less
[04:52] <mhz> jsgotangco: I read your email about svn for cookbook source
[04:53] <mhz> it was you, weren't you?
[04:57] <jsgotangco> hi
[04:57] <jsgotangco> mhz: you have a better idea?
[04:59] <mhz> well, I was/am the one suggesting Moin :)
[04:59] <jsgotangco> yes im aware of that, what im asking is if its workable in our current moin
[05:01] <jsgotangco> because we only have a few weeks before documentation freeze
[05:08] <jsgotangco> mhz: ?
[05:09] <jsgotangco> k
[05:15] <JaneW> *** Reminder MEETING NOTICE: Next meeting is scheduled for 22:00 UTC Wednesday 17 Aug on #ubuntu-meeting. ***
[05:15] <JaneW> tomorrow
[05:16] <ogra_afk> hopefully with a working CD :)
[05:16] <jsgotangco> grr
[05:16] <jsgotangco> 22
[05:16] <jsgotangco> that's 6am
[05:17] <JaneW> sigh it was meant to be a BETTER time for you
[05:17] <ogra_afk> make it 23
[05:18] <jsgotangco> no i'll just try to wake up early
[05:18] <JaneW> 11pm!
[05:18] <JaneW> YAWN
[05:18] <jsgotangco> huh?
[05:18] <ogra> JaneW, hey, i have some at 1am :)
[05:18] <jsgotangco> its already 11pm on my side now
[05:18] <LinuxJones> JaneW, what timezone is UTC for what area ?
[05:19] <jsgotangco> i don't even feel sleepy
[05:19] <ogra> LinuxJones, date -u 
[05:19] <JaneW> UTC is universal time
[05:19] <JaneW> = GMT
[05:19] <LinuxJones> ahh ty
[05:19] <JaneW> LinuxJones: where are you?
[05:20] <LinuxJones> JaneW, Eastern Canada in the Atlantic Time Zone
[05:20] <JaneW> omg I thought I made it 20:00 - 22:00 is 12am!
[05:21] <JaneW> can we change it to 20:00? or any other time?
[05:21] <ogra> sure
[05:21] <jsgotangco> 20 is 4am
[05:21] <jsgotangco> sure
[05:21] <ogra> heh
[05:21] <JaneW> gah!
[05:21] <mhz> re
[05:21] <JaneW> ok make some suggestions
[05:21] <ogra> jsgotangco, so you can decide to stay up long or stand up early
[05:22] <mhz> LOL
[05:22] <LinuxJones> heh
[05:22] <JaneW> we haven;t given the Americas a chance yet (all meetings being at 12:00UTC so far)
[05:22] <JaneW> but that works well for me
[05:22] <jsgotangco> JaneW: i prefer to say to myself that i live in the wrong place at the moment, working with you gusy
[05:22] <jsgotangco> guys
[05:22] <JaneW> luckilly I am in the middle of everyone so it's never TOO bad
[05:23] <ogra> JaneW, since k12 is our main target, we should start caring for the americans soon :)
[05:23] <JaneW> ok so what time are we doing it?
[05:23] <mhz> I live in South America, chile. so 22PM UTC would be 18 PM ???
[05:23] <JaneW> 22:00?
[05:23] <ogra> after release this meetings will get fuller i guess
[05:23] <jsgotangco> indeed
[05:24] <JaneW> mhz: I think so
[05:24] <JaneW> jsgotangco: will you be there at 22:00? cos if not I'm moving it to 20:00 - ok?
[05:24] <jsgotangco> 22 is fine with me
[05:24] <JaneW> dang
[05:24] <JaneW> ok
[05:25] <jsgotangco> but you should consider the majority
[05:25] <jsgotangco> so if its 20, i will try
[05:25] <jsgotangco> we don't meet every now and then
[05:25] <JaneW> 4am? that's just mean
[05:26] <mhz> 4am? just perfect for a mokaccino
[05:26] <mhz> :)
[05:26] <jsgotangco> JaneW: thank the saviour that i don't live in Sydney
[05:26] <mhz> I endup a class at 18:00 :(
[05:26] <JaneW> mhz: local time in Santiago is 4 hours behind UTC
[05:27] <mhz> yep
[05:27] <mhz> but not in ubunut wiki server :)
[05:28] <JaneW> mhz so you want it earlier or later?
[05:28] <jsgotangco> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?year=2005&month=8&day=17&hour=22&min=0&sec=0
[05:28] <ogra> JaneW, and miss all the fun today ? 
[05:28] <mhz> I prefer a bit later so I can get to it, but I am usually almost zero help :D
[05:29] <JaneW> ogra: what time does the fun start?
[05:29] <ogra> JaneW, if mdz gets up ? 
[05:29] <jsgotangco> yeah
[05:29] <JaneW> ogra: lol
[05:29] <jsgotangco> yoga
[05:29] <JaneW> I'll try to pop in later, but it looks to be a LATE night tomorrow...
[05:29] <jsgotangco> you don't look like a yoga person
[05:29] <JaneW> yes
[05:29] <jsgotangco> to me
[05:29] <ogra> quoting #u-d topic: Colony 3 will release today: don't break anything
[05:30] <JaneW> jsgotangco: I don't? ;)
[05:30] <ogra> jsgotangco, huh ? how do "yoga persons" look ? like walking nodes ? 
[05:30] <jsgotangco> hmm so you can bend yourself silly?
[05:30] <ogra> s/nodes/knots
[05:30] <jsgotangco> like a twister champ?
[05:30] <JaneW> jsgotangco: but I counter balance that with kata box - so I can relax and/or beat people up depending on which urge is stronger ;P
[05:31] <JaneW> lol
[05:31] <ogra> :)
[05:31] <JaneW> ogra: you;re far to nice to beat up :)
[05:31] <JaneW> besides I can only do it if there's music with the right beat playing!
[05:31] <ogra> hehe.... my GF would say different sometimes :)
[05:32] <JaneW> hehehe
[05:32] <JaneW> ok I must go, I guess the meeting time stays as is...
[05:33] <ogra> yup, have fun... and dont forget: "only bend, dont break" ;)
[05:34] <jsgotangco> she must have very strong bones
[05:53] <jsgotangco> good night
[05:54] <Petaris> hrm, why can't I find blackdown in apt
[05:54] <Petaris> what is used for java?
[05:54] <ogra__> should be in multiverse
[05:55] <Petaris> I'll check my sources.list file
[05:55] <Petaris> I have no multiverse
[05:55] <Petaris> hrm
[05:56] <ogra__> add it
[05:56] <Petaris> what mirror should I add?
[05:56] <ogra__> blackdown is supposed to be there for breezy, i'm not sure if it got moved there aleready
[05:56] <Petaris> just use the us.archive.org mirror?
[05:57] <ogra__> yup
[05:57] <Petaris> ok
[05:59] <Petaris> apparently not ther yet
[05:59] <Petaris> s/ther/there
[06:00] <ogra__> nope, i just asked doko in #ubuntu-devel ... its not in yet
[06:00] <Petaris> bugger, I need it to run jedit
[06:01] <Petaris> guess I'll just have to use nano for now
[06:01] <ogra__> there is a Java wikipage, look at that one for blackdown sources.list entrys
[06:02] <mpt> Just what the world needs, three ogras
[06:03] <ogra__> heh
[06:03] <ogra__> there he goes
[06:26] <highvoltage> hmmm... i upgraded to hoary latest and now thunderbird doesn't start up. any idea?
[06:38] <highvoltage> alt+f2 and alt+tab doesn't work either.
[06:41] <ogra__> nope, ask pitti, i think he made the updated apckages for hoary
[06:41] <ogra__> packages too
[10:56] <mdz>    * Added openssh-server to server-i386, server-amd64, server-powerpc
[10:56] <mdz>    * Added dhcp3-server to server-i386, server-amd64, server-powerpc
[10:56] <mdz> ogra: ^ ???
[10:57] <ogra> mdz, sure... we want ltsp out of te box, dont we ? ltsp-server only has arecommends for openssh-server
[10:59] <mdz> ogra: ltsp-server doesn't give you ltsp out of the box
[10:59] <mdz> that is what ltsp-standalone-server is
[10:59] <ogra> oops... so dhcp is to much, i see
[11:00] <mdz> it is not only too much, it won't work, because dhcp3-server will be unconfigured
[11:01] <ogra> i'll create a config with the -config package later... for testing users can modify the file from /etc/ltsp
[11:01] <mdz> why would you want to do something different than what Ubuntu is doing?
[11:03] <ogra> mdz, how else should i get ltsp out of the box ? i need a working dhcp.conf
[11:04] <ogra> s/dhcp.conf/dhcpd.conf
[11:04] <mdz> ogra: that is what ltsp-server-standalone does
[11:05] <mdz> that is what the file in /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf is
[11:05] <ogra> hmm, not for me yet... how does it determine the ip range etc ? additionally the tftp server is disabled by default and portmap blocks nfs connections
[11:06] <ogra> so i will have to make some basic changes for a working config... at least thats what i expirienced here until now...
[11:07] <ogra> i didnt know you intended to change nfs and tftp services with ltsp-server-standalone... so these are bus then...
[11:07] <ogra> bugs even
[11:16] <mdz> ogra: ltsp-server has configured nfs exports since version 0.25
[11:16] <mdz> ogra: in June
[11:16] <mdz> ogra: and tftp requires no configuration
[11:16] <ogra> it does, in /etc/defaults ... its disabled...
[11:17] <ogra> at least for me... even after installing l-s-s
[11:18] <ogra> the exports are configured fine, but the nfs-kernel-server isnt started and portmap still listens on lo for me...
[11:18] <mdz> ogra: the default for portmap should be to listen on all interfaces
[11:19] <ogra> OPTIONS="-i 127.0.0.1"
[11:19] <ogra> from /etc/default/portmap
[11:19] <ogra> #Defaults for tftpd-hpa
[11:19] <ogra> RUN_DAEMON="no"
[11:19] <ogra> OPTIONS="-l -s /var/lib/tftpboot"
[11:20] <mdz> then someone broke it
[11:20] <mdz> RUN_DAEMON is irrelevant
[11:20] <mdz> it runs from inetd by default
[11:20] <ogra> from /etc/default/tftpd-hpa
[11:20] <mdz> but please do fix portmap
[11:20] <mdz> it was only set to 127.0.0.1 for fam in hoary
[11:21] <ogra> did we exclude it in breezy from the desktop ? 
[11:23] <mdz> it is in universe
[11:23] <ogra> ah, found it
[11:23] <mdz> and has been for months
[11:23] <ogra> NFS is explicitly not here, because it brings in nasties like portmap, and because the network will need to be running before it can be used, so we may as well put that in Supported.
[11:23] <ogra> great :)
[11:32] <ogra> mdz, portmap isnt in universe... (luckily... i was fearing another main inclusion report already) its just not in base anymore...
[11:33] <ogra> s/base/minimal
[11:34] <mdz> ogra: ?
[11:34] <mdz> ogra: fam is in universe
[11:34] <mdz> ogra: portmap was part of desktop in hoary because we had fam in desktop, and fam required portmap
[11:34] <mdz> so we changed portmap to listen only on localhost by default for security reasons
[11:35] <mdz> now we don't have fam in desktop anymore (it's moved to universe), and portmap's default was supposed to be changed back
[11:35] <ogra> yep... i was reading the above as portmap is in universe... which shocked me a bit :)
[11:37] <ogra> mpt, our two current usecases are one classroom (ltsp standalone setup) or teachers home (workstation standalone setup) thats what we worked out at the summit for the first release... 
[11:38] <ogra> (teachers home can as well be pupils home indeed)
[11:38] <mdz> I just uploaded portmap fixing the default
[11:38] <mdz> that was supposed to change months ago and I thought it had
[11:38] <ogra> oh, i was just on it
[11:39] <ogra> i bet someone thinks he has changed that....
[11:39] <ogra> if [ "$1" = "configure" ]  && [ -n "$2" ]  && dpkg --compare-versions "$2" lt "5-7ubuntu2"; then
[11:42] <mdz> that's for upgrades
[11:42] <mdz> the default in debian/templates was wrong
[11:43] <ogra> ah, yes
[12:02] <Petaris> Well I'm off
[12:02] <Petaris> bye all