[12:10] How to charge a documentation project? With a battering ram, and a large quantity of superb writing ready to use. [12:11] my english is not very good, what i mean is how to price it [12:12] i have to write a java tutorial with full copyright [12:13] and i don't know how much is the standard man/hour price [12:15] ranto: in au we quoted $90/hr for coding [12:15] settled at $75/hr [12:18] sorry for the joke [12:18] wow thats a lot :D [12:18] its ok, no problem! [12:18] ranto: yeah it depends on the job === avanspronsen [n=andrewv@69.156.155.107] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:19] it's a java tutorial for japan [12:19] but if you're experienced and delivering a finished product on a short contract basis [12:19] you have to make your money somehow [12:19] i've 20 days to finish the job === HrdwrBoB [n=matt@bob.is.teh.admin.at.vicnet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:25] HrdwrBoB: us dolars? [12:30] Australian dollars, I'm assuming - I think HrdwrBoB is in .au === mpt [n=mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === mpt [n=mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === thoreauputic [n=prospero@wolax9-066.dialup.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === HrdwrBoB [n=matt@bob.is.teh.admin.at.vicnet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [n=seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robitaille [n=daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === thoreauputic_ [n=prospero@wolax7-101.dialup.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:04] jdub, ping? [05:12] pong [05:13] jdub, who built/updated the install guide in the breezy iso? [05:13] no idea [05:14] hmm ask the list i guess? [05:14] its the debian installer doc with an ubuntu flavour [05:15] jdub: Kamion i think [05:15] jsgotangco: it's probably colin [05:15] most probably [05:16] ill ask colin later === mpt [n=mpt@200-153-203-88.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:25] Morning all [05:26] morning mpt === avanspronsen [n=andrewv@69.156.155.107] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:35] mpt, looked at your UbuntuHelp on baz [05:35] what needs to be done there? [05:40] hi jsgotangco, pong :-) [05:40] thanks for looking at it [05:41] How recently did you merge? I mirrored quite a lot of changes about 14 hours ago [05:41] i haven't merged yet [05:41] im just followed your steps in the wiki [05:42] ah, ok [05:42] since i don't know yet what needs to be done, most of the issues you raised are yelp stylesheets [05:43] So, baz merge mpt@myrealbox.com/help--0 should get you my latest changes [05:43] Yes, stylesheet niceties [05:44] So, what else is missing [05:44] The Breezy-specific stuff, basically [05:44] Since I only had the time+machine to consider installing Breezy as of Friday [05:45] and afaict the installer CDs have been pretty dodgy since then [05:45] yes [05:45] So, stuff about setting up a firewall [05:45] and connecting to a wireless network [05:45] Actually, connecting to the Internet in general [05:45] I could find practically no information about that at all [05:45] so we're aiming for a Yelp-aware doc? [05:46] except for the WiFiHowTo or whatever it's called on the wiki [05:46] I'm not sure what you mean by yelp-aware [05:47] if it opens up in Yelp [05:47] because Yelp is pretty dumb in other docbook tags [05:47] sime [05:47] some [05:48] yeah, I noticed [05:48] The to-do list on the wiki page are my biggest gripes [05:51] hmmm [05:51] is ubuntu-help my branch then? [05:51] Type "baz tree-version" (without quotes) [05:51] that'll tell you what your branch is [05:52] jsg@pingu:~/ubuntu-help$ baz tree-version [05:52] jgotangco@gmail.com/help--0 [05:52] ok [05:52] err [05:52] where is this? [05:53] Where on disk? [05:53] yeah [05:53] ubuntu-help? [05:53] If you followed the instructions on the wiki it's in an ubuntu-help directory, yes [05:54] ok what's the purpose of the archives folder then? [05:54] The archives folder records the various archives you have [05:54] For example in my ~/archives I have records for mpt@canonical.com (my Launchpad work) and mpt@myrealbox.com (my Ubuntu Help work) [05:55] ok so actual editing is done on ubuntu-help right? [05:55] i see [05:55] Yes, you just edit the files inside ubuntu-help [05:55] You can use "baz diff" to see what you've done [05:55] Unpaid overtime == bad. [05:55] ("baz diff | less" if you've done a lot) [05:56] I'll get back to work now. [05:56] heya Flonne [05:56] Hi. [05:56] heh [05:56] What kind of job? [05:56] Techwriting, system document evaluation, and Python prototyping. [05:57] Someday I'll be good enough to be a professional tech writer [05:57] mpt, so if i do some changes, i request you to merge to my archive? === mpt realizes he was actually a professional tech writer once, earning NZ$15/hour [05:57] jsgotangco: Correct === Flonne isn't making too much... but all work is done with FreeBSD, so it's fine. [05:58] you commit them (baz commit -s "summary") and mirror them (baz archive-mirror), and then I can merge from them [05:59] And the same for my changes, you merge from those [05:59] Providing you agree with them, of course :-) [06:00] Flonne: How's the hand? [06:02] It's better. I also got a chance to play with Yelp and XSL at work, so hopefully I'll find the problem soon. [06:02] Thanks for asking. [06:02] mpt, i like the structure [06:03] as in the sections and subsections? [06:03] yes [06:04] Modelled loosely on the Gnome User Guide [06:05] i noticed..the it still needs a lot of work though [06:05] yes [06:05] i dont think this can be done by documentation freeze [06:05] but its a nice start [06:06] Well, I guess that depends partly on the number of contributors :-) [06:06] :) [06:06] i'd like to work on it and learn baz more on the process [06:06] It could be done if existing sources are mined for information and a few editors refine the content... [06:06] Flonne, yeah we can pull info from the gnome user guide [06:07] some from the faq guide being worked on and just detail it further [06:08] For me, where I've been writing topics the same as covered in the GUG, I'm pretty sure it's been faster for me to write from scratch [06:08] but I guess it might be different for other people [06:08] i'll see what i can hack up later and request for a merge when i see you [06:08] excellent, thanks [06:09] mpt, ok say we have 10 contributors, who manages the merge? only 1 person? [06:09] jsgotangco: How long ago did you grab the archive? [06:09] mpt, last night, updated today [06:10] ok [06:10] baz up ~= svn up? [06:10] No, there's no mainline for "up" to work from [06:10] everyone has a copy [06:10] there is no server copy [06:10] right [06:10] Ah. [06:11] I'll need to read about this system tomorrow. [06:11] so it can be a bit confusing at the start [06:11] What usually happens, as far as I know, is that two or three people end up being the hub of the wheel [06:11] the rest would request then [06:11] They pull in contributions from others [06:11] and constantly merge between themselves [06:11] how is conflict resolved? [06:11] It helps if they're in different timezones :-) [06:11] via the merge? [06:11] Yes [06:12] When you do a merge, it'll tell you if there were conflicts [06:12] the conflicted files will be prefixed with "C" in the listing instead of "M" [06:12] When you open them, you can see conflict markers which look roughly like this [06:12] <<<<<< TREE [06:12] your stuff here [06:12] ====== [06:12] the stuff you merged from here [06:13] >>>>>> MERGE-SOURCE [06:13] So for each of those sections, you can decide which bits should be retained [06:13] edit the files as appropriate [06:13] and once you've done that for all the conflicts, "baz resolved --all" [06:14] hmm ok if you're merging my changes you'd do baz merge jgotangco@gmail.com/help--0 as well? [06:14] exactly [06:14] i dont have a supermirror [06:14] You don't have an account on the supermirror? [06:14] Hmm... 123 updates for Breezy today. Maybe I should revert. [06:14] jsgotangco: So is your archive public at all [06:14] it won't let me do it if i follow your wiki [06:14] ? [06:15] really? [06:15] amd64 [06:15] jsg@pingu:~/ubuntu-help$ baz make-archive -m jgotangco@gmail.com sftp://jgotangco@gmail.com@mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/jgotangco@gmail.com [06:15] Permission denied (publickey). [06:15] Error reading from server [06:15] jsg@pingu:~/ubuntu-help$ [06:15] hmmmm [06:15] What's your Launchpad account name? [06:16] Flonne: That might be a good thing :-) [06:16] jgotangco@gmail.com [06:17] The first sixty were Xorg input updates. That's a lot, considering xserver-xorg isn't one of the packages to be upgraded. [06:18] jsgotangco: Oh, you need your SSH key registered with Launchpad [06:18] i see [06:18] ahh [06:18] I think that's the problem [06:18] i haven't done that [06:18] I'll put that on the wiki page [06:19] sorry, I went over those instructions with the lead baz hacker, but we both missed that step :-) [06:19] You need to register an SSH key with Launchpad to be able to publish your Bazaar code branches in the Bazaar supermirror. [06:19] right [06:19] so that's why [06:24] Flonne: So now would be a bad time to install Breezy from scratch? [06:25] jsgotangco: wiki page fixed. [06:26] alright ill try it out again now [06:27] It's still holding back three packages... including Python. [06:28] ill just make a small edit and commit [06:28] I'm not sure about i386, but I'm going to replace my 64-bit Gentoo partition with Hoary so I can work. [06:29] jsgotangco: Committing you can do anyway, it's the archive-mirror that's the test :-) === jeffsch [n=jeffsch@fatwire-204-126.uniserve.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:30] mpt, archive-mirror goes into my supermirror right? [06:30] goes to your account on the Supermirror, yes [06:31] wooo Seg fault [06:31] erk [06:31] jsg@pingu:~/ubuntu-help$ baz archive-mirror [06:31] Enter passphrase for key '/home/jsg/.ssh/id_rsa': [06:31] Segmentation fault [06:31] so that's the test :) [06:31] oh man [06:31] jsgotangco, pong [06:32] wow [06:32] Burgundavia, where have you been? roaming in the real world lately? :) [06:32] jsgotangco, at my gf's place [06:32] which means my machine stays on [06:32] Burgundavia, my laptop is being held captive by customs [06:32] ouch [06:33] jsgotangco, if they are asking for money, canonical should cover it. But you need to pay up front [06:33] no worries though, claire to the rescue [06:33] mpt, if i always get a segfault, i wont be able to mirror and you can't merge :) [06:34] jsgotangco: I realize that [06:34] I ... don't know why that could be happening [06:35] jsgotangco: Try using the ssh-add command [06:35] and then baz archive-mirror [06:35] That'll tell us what's segfaulting, ssh or baz [06:36] i still segfault on baz [06:36] oh, sucks [06:37] the authentication agent works [06:40] It seems pretty much all the Bazaar hackers are asleep/busy [06:40] Try asking in #bazaar in a few hours [06:41] Sorry I can't help you further [06:41] No response in there at the moment. [06:42] its ok i'll just grab a bite first [06:43] There's always e-mail :-) [06:43] By default, "baz diff" gives you the diff since your last commit [06:43] yes i did that [06:43] its really nice [06:43] but "baz diff mpt@myrealbox.com/help--0" will give you the diff between yours and mine, regardless of whether you've committed or mirrored or whatever [06:44] ahh [06:44] Also good for examining someone's changes to see if you want to merge them [06:44] i see your 14 patches [06:44] It takes quite a bit longer than a normal diff, because it's comparing across the network [06:49] jsgotangco: Do you know how to use gdb? === mpt wonders if Flonne will have the same problem [06:52] What problem? [06:53] Yelp is still not accepting XSL, but I'll continue reading while downloading Hoary. [06:54] The baz problem [06:55] Though from "downloading Hoary" I guess you have slightly bigger issues to deal with :-) [06:55] Well, I could install it from Knoppix, but I really want to get something done. :) [06:59] mpt: I get Permission denied (publickey) when trying to create supermirror [06:59] is that an ssh problem? === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:00] jeffsch: I've just updated the instructions to mention that you need to register your SSH key with Launchpad [07:00] jsgotangco had the same problem [07:00] soryr [07:00] sorry, even [07:00] hmmm... i see that, but there is no "SSH Keys" on the right of my launchpad page [07:01] yes there is, I can see it from here [07:01] https://launchpad.net/people/jeffsch [07:01] between "Bugs Reported" and "GPG Keys" [07:02] ahhh. silly me... i was looking at the launchpad homepage, and not MY launchpad page :) [07:02] ok, good point [07:05] might also be useful to mention that "baz make-archive -m your@e-mail.address etc etc" is all one line, and not two lines [07:07] done. [07:07] ok, 2am, I'd better sleep or I'll be late for work yet again [07:08] I don't seem to have encountered any problems while setting up a baz account. [07:09] creating a supermirror relies on an ssh key [07:09] Flonne: I meant when doing archive-mirror [07:11] ok, i have to generate an ssh key: which is better - rsa or dsa? [07:11] I'd need something to commit. I'll do that at work. You need sleep. [07:11] jeffsch: dsa === mpt commits himself to unconsciousness [07:12] 'night, people [07:12] night mpt [07:12] G'night. [07:12] night [07:13] night [07:13] mpt, thanks [07:13] jsgotangco: So if you want to, you can e-mail a diff [07:13] ok [07:13] if you get no luck in #bazaar [07:19] jdub: how long for the ssh public key to work its way through the launchpad system? [07:19] i still get Permission denied (publickey). [07:19] hmm [07:19] it just worked for me instantly [07:19] after uploading my ssh key [07:20] doh! my bad. hold on a sec... [07:23] ok. it worked. I only changed two of the three "your@e-mail.address". tsk tsk [07:24] heh [07:26] jsgotangco: what up with styleguide? a while ago you said something about making pdf available [07:27] i want to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide with appropriate info [07:27] ouch [07:28] i havent fop'ed it yet! [07:28] sorry [07:28] np [07:28] i can prolly get around to it myself. [07:28] and i don't have anywhere to put the PDF either [07:28] only thing is, where to put it? [07:28] oh [07:29] should have been on the linode but only mdke has access to it at the moment for all i know [07:29] ok. so next time you see mdke, ask him about it - i will ask too [07:30] ok [07:30] jeffsch: shuoldn't take long at all [07:31] yeah... turned out to be my fault === robitaille [n=daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jeffsch [n=jeffsch@fatwire-204-126.uniserve.ca] has left #ubuntu-doc ["gone] === robitaille [n=daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia has finally cleared his mail backlog [09:37] how long did that take? [09:37] a couple of hours [09:37] not too bad, then [09:37] only 319 [09:39] must have been lots of glance-and-delete to get thru 319 in only a couple hours [09:39] most are bug email [09:40] are you on #ubuntu now? following Determinist's "what Linux should do" rant? [09:41] yes, but not actively following it [09:42] can you send me a gmail invite? they still don't seem to be accepting regular signups [09:43] i can send you one [09:43] jsgotangco: that was actually meant for Burgundavia, but whatever! yh728@victoria.tc.ca - you two can race to see which gets to me first... ;) [09:43] Madpilot, done [09:43] there [09:43] Burgundavia: thanks [09:49] bloody hell. Meeting in 6 hours [09:49] that's early... [09:49] what meeting? [09:49] 14:00 UTC [09:50] oh wait, 1 day and 6 hours [09:50] bit of a difference. still too early in the morning [09:50] need to be up early that morning anyway === thoreauputic_ [n=prospero@wolax7-159.dialup.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@azevedo.astro.up.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [n=seveas@ksl403-uva-141.wireless.uva.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:54] jsgotangco, yo [10:55] hi [10:55] aha [10:55] hello [10:55] saw a highlight from you about the linode? [10:55] been busy? [10:55] yeah [10:55] looking for a place to live [10:55] oh yeah === mpt [n=mpt@200-153-203-88.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:55] wassup? [10:55] well me an jeffsch are stumped on where to put our PDF on styleguide [10:55] ok [10:56] what are the options? [10:56] build/gnome? [10:56] make pdf on styleguide [10:56] but it needs apache fop [10:56] what is that? [10:57] it needs it to build? [10:57] http://xml.apache.org/fop/ [10:57] just the pdf [10:57] the make html works [10:57] ok is this apache fop in Ubuntu? [10:58] nope [10:58] damn [10:58] so what do we do? [10:59] hmm [10:59] i can make a PDF on oxygen [10:59] and just upload it [10:59] hmm [10:59] it would be better to have it automated on the server tho no? [11:00] yeah [11:00] but jeff's script needs fop [11:00] if we can get it building and into the "make all" then it will get copied with the rest [11:00] jsgotangco, we can install fop on the server? [11:00] you have root [11:01] yes, and henrik [11:01] we'd like to release StyleGuide [11:01] i'll install it then [11:01] ok [11:01] will you put the make target into "all"? [11:02] all our docs? [11:02] jsgotangco, there is currently a make all in the /gnome/ folder [11:02] if you can add the styleguide, it will get built automatically with the others [11:03] actually it doesn't make sense to put it under gnome/ [11:03] i can try im not too familiar with the other scripts, only jeff's [11:03] i can do a separate cronjob if you like [11:03] but it would be best to have one make target that builds both html and pdf, what do you think? [11:04] sure that's the best route actually i will just compare the scripts that we have [11:05] ok [11:05] leave the existing ones, and make one that calls both? [11:05] well that should be our end goal [11:05] is that linode in hoary? [11:07] it runs hoary === mdke looks for instructions on how to install fop [11:08] ackkk styelsheet borkage [11:10] where should I install fop? [11:12] looks like I just have to untar the binary somewhere convenient, if you tell me the right address for your scripts, I'll do it there [11:12] im trying to remember where i put it then [11:13] ok cool === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:18] i've changed my mind [11:18] i'm gonna install from source, that way all the paths should be right [11:18] wha? [11:19] the make pdf script seems to need fop.sh, so building from source should ensure that that script is installed in the right place [11:19] or no? [11:19] yes [11:20] actually... building it requires java === mdke goes back to the binary [11:20] jsgotangco, lemme know where you have it installed and I'll install it now [11:20] also, do a "locate fop.sh" [11:22] looks like I need java anyway [11:23] jeez is there no other way to build pdf? [11:23] xml2pdf? [11:24] i dunno anything about it [11:25] part of the xml2 package [11:26] that does sound a bit more convenient [11:26] jsgotangco? [11:26] just call it as part of a script [11:26] jsgotangco has used it for edubuntu stuff I think [11:26] sorry i was downstairs [11:27] no i used a Java ide for that [11:27] if we can do xml->pdf without installing java and a non-packaged library, that would be a bit more convenient no? [11:27] it should be [11:27] i'm trying to install the binary on this machine and it just fails [11:28] ok can you let me know via email? maybe Sean will be able to help [11:28] ok i'll just email later [11:29] i'll set up the server this evening if so [11:29] i'll get it building html already [11:29] (also if you do a make all target, that would rock) [11:30] argh [11:30] what does he use for building the html? [11:30] make: xmllint: Command not found === mdke grumbles [11:30] on what? [11:30] styleguide? [11:30] make html works for me [11:31] yeah [11:31] without any other app [11:31] seems not to use the same tool as the other docs [11:31] it uses something the linode doesn't have installed yet [11:31] its basic docbook stylesheets [11:31] jsg@pingu:~/ubuntu-doc/styleguide$ make html [11:31] xmllint --dtdvalid /usr/share/xml/docbook/schema/dtd/4.3/docbookx.dtd --noout --xinclude --noent --postvalid styleguide.xml [11:31] xsltproc -o ../build/styleguide/styleguide.html /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/html/docbook.xsl styleguide.xml [11:32]