=== WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@bl5-52-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [n=seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:30] highvoltage, jerome is knee-deep in edubuntu stuff [02:31] highvoltage, rob^ and mgalvin are working on the faqguide [02:31] highvoltage, and I will be working on the quicktour tomorrow === rob^ [n=rob@pdpc/supporter/student/rob-ubuntu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robitaille [n=daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:43] mdke, is there much difference between the two T43's === Seveas [n=seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:11] jdub, hey === jbull [n=jonah@c-24-34-36-87.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:13] hi all [06:13] rob^: you around? [06:13] jdub, I specifically asked for a UI freeze for us because the theme changed at the last minute in Hoary [06:14] the engine won't be changing [06:14] but the look might [06:14] all I care about is for screenshots [06:14] in large part, it won't [06:14] ui freeze doesn't cover artwork [06:14] oh [06:14] but in general, the basic building blocks are set [06:14] that was my understanding [06:15] 29th probably wont give us enough time to take all the screenshots that might have changed for all translations [06:15] I thought we had a month for the translators to do that [06:16] the engine won't change [06:16] but the look will [06:16] that doesn't mean anything [06:16] yes it does [06:16] dude [06:16] the gtk theme won't change [06:16] the metacity theme may change [06:17] (but i doubt it) [06:17] jdub, I hear you. in my screenshooters hat, I am saying, I don't care about what actaully changes [06:17] most of it will be nailed down before the 29th [06:17] I am merely saying that that the 29th is probably too late for us [06:17] yes, you do care about what actually changes [06:17] because the majority of screenshots you can take without caring [06:17] sorry, bad wording [06:18] there are very few screenshots that should include: [06:18] - background [06:18] - application / file manager icons [06:18] - splash screen (none, really) [06:18] - usplash (none, really) [06:18] etc. [06:18] ouch [06:19] I totally misunderstood UI freeze [06:19] I thought it meant that the UI was not going to change, period [06:19] the look and the code was set [06:19] no [06:19] the UI will not change [06:19] the artwork may [06:19] yes, I thought UI included both [06:19] but if you listen, you'll understand that the majority of screenshot subjects *won't* change [06:20] someone still needs to sort through and figure out [06:20] jdub, is humility going to be default? [06:21] undecided [06:21] don't you mean "Human" for a theme? [06:21] or has that name changed too? [06:21] Madpilot: it will be called human, yes [06:21] jdub, to be honest, I am deeply scared that we are going to repeat the Hoary mess. The theme changed at the last minute at made all of our screenshots look terrible [06:21] hence why we asked for UI freeze [06:21] if we switch to the SVG theme as late as artwork freeze date, then there will only be very few screenshots you need to redo [06:22] yes, but we have to find them first [06:22] it's not hard, dude [06:22] if it's a full screen shot, or involves the file manager or panel menus, that'll change [06:23] gah [06:23] I just think we need a bit more certainty in this [06:23] there should be very few of those in ubuntu documentation [06:23] certainty: [06:23] we have 3 docs on the plan for release: [06:23] the widget theme will not change from now [06:24] faqguide, quicktour, and edubuntu cookbook [06:24] the metacity theme is wildly unlikely to change from now [06:24] jdub, I understand that the widget set will not change [06:24] I totally understand all the various parts, etc. [06:24] what I am saying is that the screenshot doesn't care what changes, if *one* thing in a screenshot changes, we need to reshot it [06:25] and so do all the translators [06:25] then i don't think you really understand at all [06:25] the two artwork items that will affect the vast majority of screenshots are the gtk+ and metacity themes [06:25] yes [06:25] those are enormously unlikely to change [06:25] thus, most of your screenshots, from UI freeze, will not have to be reshot [06:26] a metacity theme change like we had in Hoary would be a total disaster [06:26] the metacity theme didn't change in hoary [06:26] the gtk+ theme did [06:26] ok [06:26] but complaining about what happened in hoary is irrelevant [06:27] as above, the only one that may change is the metacity theme, and even that is vastly unlikely [06:27] I realize that [06:27] from that, we have: [06:27] - possible icon theme change [06:27] - definite background change [06:27] both of which impact only a small number of screenshots [06:28] jdub, I accept your reassurance but will reserve judgement until I see the actual changes [06:29] perhaps it would be wise to take the above on board and look at which screenshots will be effected [06:29] I will parse through the faqguide tomorrow [06:30] I also plan to write most of the quicktour tomorrow [06:30] if any involve panel menus or are full screen shots unnecessarily, they can be zapped [06:32] a quick parse of the quicktour as it exists shows that about 1/4 would have to replaced with an icon theme change === thoreauputic [n=prospero@wolax7-126.dialup.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:55] morning jsgotangco [06:55] hi! [06:56] I have a free day tomorrow to actually write! [06:56] lol how is your new job? [06:56] quicktour should be mostly done by tomorrow this time [06:56] tiring but still interesting [06:56] i'm sorry if i haven't devoted that much time for the quick tour [06:57] i am trying to divide my time between commits and real life [06:57] np [06:57] I had no free time last week either [06:57] only able to install Colony 3 last night [06:57] i was trying to do a small article similar to the gnome preview for breezy [06:58] my M2 doesn't like Ubuntu one bit [06:58] ouch [06:58] mine even hibernates now! [06:58] either that or it just dislikes X.org [06:58] mine does too [06:58] even brightness works [06:58] most of the function keys are useless though [06:59] tosh seesm to have a bunch crazy 3rd party utils [06:59] most of them are crap [06:59] X still has a lot of issues from Colony 3, even the scroll wheel of a usb mouse doesnt work [06:59] my docking station is mostly useless [07:00] power works through it but not much else [07:00] wow you have a doc? [07:00] i must admit though, this M2 beside me is really nice for a windows laptop [07:01] I even have atheros inside [07:01] so I can get my wireless working easily [07:01] jeezz how big is that machine [07:01] 4.9 pounds [07:01] 15" screen [07:01] im not sure what mine uses but wireless works out of the box [07:01] think you have atheros as well [07:01] widescreen? [07:02] yes, 1280x768 [07:02] crap [07:02] that's a multimedia hound [07:02] it was even detected correctly in Hoary and Breezy [07:03] and sound was as well [07:03] do you have a good sound system or a generic one? [07:03] mine is basically a business model [07:04] basic, mine is also a business model [07:04] did you experience having your screen all fuzzy and garbled in hoary at default? [07:05] mine does, it only works on 800x600 should I file a bug for it? the thing works in breezy at 1024 [07:05] nope [07:06] I got lucky with my laptop [07:06] nice..mine is starting to be a PITA === Burgundavia needs to send another email around to clarify things [07:07] (its so light though) [07:07] Burgundavia, you forgot something on the template [07:07] Frequency Scaling [07:07] and lid close [07:07] email me [07:07] ok [07:07] ubuntu-laptop list doesn't seem to be working yet [07:08] you missed the fun on #ubuntu-laptop [07:08] what happened? [07:08] you don't want mjg59 to get pissed [07:09] haha [07:10] sad, actually [07:10] does he have an idea that sarge uses our X? [07:10] no idea [07:10] we hae the most beautiful X in the world at the moment [07:10] the newest [07:10] the only one even close is Gentoo [07:11] the clarity in breezy is outstanding [07:11] jsgotangco, I also learned somethign I don't like today [07:11] what is that? [07:12] jsgotangco, UI freeze is not the end of all changes to look [07:12] @%!$^ [07:12] that is the artwork freeze, which is Sept 29th [07:12] holy crap what does that make us then [07:12] jdub and I had a discussion about it [07:12] we disagreed on what it meant [07:12] we're going to end up making notes and disclaimers that our frozen docs are not the final ones [07:13] I looked at the quicktour [07:13] if the icon set changes (which it might), we will need to reshoot about 1/4 of the stuff [07:13] anything further is going to suck more [07:14] I thought you raised this at UDU (not blaming you) [07:14] I did [07:14] jsgotangco: Burgundavia is making a big deal about very little [07:14] it is something that can be workable given our time [07:15] we will see how it flows [07:15] even at the start all our docs have disclaimers on such if i remember correctly [07:16] but a properly written doc have very little use of graphics to make a statement IMO [07:16] its still the same instructions [07:16] yes, the strings shouldn't have to change [07:16] the UI is not to shift [07:17] so mostly it is just a communications things [07:17] we need to get the word out to the translators and then get those screenshots back in [07:17] i'm sure there won't be any radical changes in the UI/Artwork that generally borks our work === jbull [n=jonah@c-24-34-36-87.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === nickrud [n=aias@adsl-69-152-229-9.dsl.snantx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:52] Burgundavia, I couldn't resist having the only aptitude page :) [07:53] nickrud, was that you? nicely written stuff [07:53] is it linked from User Documentation? [07:53] ? [07:54] It's from memory, mostly. I lost nearly all my history when I just moved. [07:55] I've also been working on the voodoo3 page :) [07:55] might be nice to have the best practices stuff on UserDocumentation [07:55] and secondary stuff on a catchall page [07:55] so we would have 2 links instead of 30 [07:56] for each section [07:56] I have no problem with that; synaptic is gone, I guess, so, what's for the nearly competent like myself :) [07:57] problem is that we have too many ways to doing it [07:57] synaptic sucks but gnome-app-install has some nasty corner issues [07:57] like codecs [07:57] I've looked at the faq that just got published; maybe somewhere in that [07:58] and I've not used gnome-app-install, so have no comment [07:58] I was wondering about this new app-install thing and stuff like codecs - why wasn't Synaptic just polished instead? [07:58] because synaptic sucks and is in C [07:58] python is much faster to code in [07:58] and synaptic is very powerful [07:59] all the search things I look for were in synaptic, but I don't python. [07:59] g-a-i is a very nice program [07:59] but if stuff like codecs aren't going to be in app-install - because they have no need for a .desktop file - ppl are going to be using Synaptic anyway, or the CLI... [07:59] I was thinking about that [08:00] you can create a .desktop file that doesn't add anything to the menu [08:00] thus add .desktop files to all the codec packages [08:00] have to look, I guess, it's breezy :) [08:00] a desktop-less .desktop file? interesting... [08:01] g-a-i only does things with a .desktop? [08:01] so, l~g~sgnome is still useful :) [08:01] nickrud: that's what I was reading - I don't run Breezy myself [08:02] g-a-i is for end users [08:02] our parents and siblings [08:02] end users need codecs, though [08:02] (excepting my sibling) [08:02] and aptitude is what we use to keep those end users happy. [08:02] yes they do, that is why these corner cases need to be solved [08:02] g-a-i is far from a finished product [08:04] isn't aptitude a CLI thing? alternate to apt-get? [08:04] yes [08:05] so... Synaptic is being depreciated in favour of an app (g-a-i) that won't have everything Syn does, and a return to the CLI? seems like a step backward [08:05] no [08:06] not necessarily, [08:06] synaptic is not going anywhere for breezy [08:06] I expect to see it disappear from the default instlal for +1 or +2 [08:06] as g-a-i fills in the holes [08:06] so, will etch ever be a basis for ubuntu ;D [08:07] no [08:07] oh [08:07] ubuntu is based on sid, which is newer than etch [08:07] ? [08:07] next sid freeze, etch is. [08:07] sid is unstable, etch is testing (the next stable) [08:08] packages go from experimental --> sid (unstalbe) --> etch (testing) [08:08] and then etch gets released [08:08] and we get a new testing [08:08] sid is rolling [08:08] sid breaks my toys, he's done it before. Breezy is meaner :) [08:08] we always use sid [08:10] hmm toshiba has this transparent network config thingy that gets washed away in a white background in windows :) [08:10] and the stupid custom default control panel that gets launched with the toshiba assist button [08:11] jsgotangco: a triumph of graphical design & UI design! ;) [08:14] jsgotangco, you need to email me about whatever I missed on the laptop page [08:14] So, a serious question. I've been looking for an actual place to contribute, and working with docs seems useful [08:14] nickrud: there's always wiki stuff that needs editing! [08:14] owwww my butt hurts so much! [08:15] Burgundavia, you or the list? [08:15] jsgotangco, me [08:15] ok [08:15] jsgotangco, I am going to compile a list and send it around [08:15] stupid weak desk at work [08:16] what's the use of the Pause/Break key? [08:16] for old dos apps [08:16] the stop the output flow so you could read it [08:17] you forgot to add if parallel port works [08:17] Burgundavia, sent === robitaille [n=daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:17] jsgotangco, cheers [08:17] robitaille, are you still up or is this an autoconnect? [08:17] i'll move to the M2 [08:18] i'm tired of playing with windows already [08:18] I'm up. I had to reboot from Hoary to Breezy to test something. And once again experiencing multiple gnome-panels crashes.... [08:18] Madpilot, cheers to your first email :) [08:18] fun [08:18] don't think I will shut down my machine tonight [08:19] has anyone experienced stage 2 hanging at 91% [08:19] I had to burn 3 discs before I got one that installed [08:20] did you do integrity check? [08:20] jsgotangco: got that already? cool [08:20] our list is quite fast [08:20] ok that was wierd [08:21] I got the email from jdub replying to the email about Avahi before I got the original email [08:21] that's really fast [08:21] I've gotten u-doc email out of order as well, actually [08:22] gets very confusing - I barely know what's going on at the best of times! ;) [08:22] gmail actually threaded that one correctly [08:22] it is the gnome mail servers, they are wierd right now [08:22] what gnome list are you in? [08:23] desktop-devel, nautilus, multimedia, muine [08:23] gnome-marketing is fun [08:23] oh and that too [08:23] and doc and doc-utils [08:26] how many lists are you on Burgundavia? Just the ubuntu ones are overwehelming me... [08:27] robitaille, I just unsubscribed from the bugzilla, that was killing me [08:27] aside from that, the 3 biggest are inkscape-devel, desktop-devel and ubuntu-devel [08:27] I am subscribed but don't follow -users [08:28] I quickly scanned the bugzilla list on a daily basis; I have been back into doing more bug triage in recent days in both bugzilla and malone. [08:28] probably 25 [08:28] I have nearly stopped follwoing -users and #ubuntu; just too much high-volume, and too much noice. [08:28] i haven't done anything in malone yet [08:29] Malone is getting nicer every day. [08:29] yes === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:29] the other thing I totally neglect is the Canadian loco team. No time for that [08:29] oh, wallace and gromit film!! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4167392.stm [08:32] i keep getting confused on the # and British pound key [08:32] just did a significant cleanup of this - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AptitudeSurvivalGuide - it matches the conventions of BasicCommands now [08:32] the # is also called a pound on the telephone, just to be confusing [08:34] Madpilot, looks good [08:34] thanks [08:34] how much "Canadian localization" do we really need, anyway? Perhaps, "Welcome to Ubuntu, eh?" :) [08:35] loco teams are also marketing teams [08:36] Madpilot, my crazy inuktitut idea [08:37] is that your gift to Nunavut [08:37] heh [08:37] ya [08:38] right, got it. There's no reason the Inuktitut idea won't work, you just need to convince a couple of governments of that! [08:38] this is looking sweet --> https://launchpad.net/products/bazaar [08:38] I understand a lot of legwork has already been done [08:38] yeah baz rocks [08:38] till i segfault [08:38] i must malone it [08:38] no, the launchpad page [08:39] ohh [08:39] but yes, baz rocks [08:39] Madpilot: and convince the local people that they need Linux :) [08:39] give them free computers with edubuntu and inuktitut [08:39] how about the fonts? [08:39] every school in Nunavut [08:39] several exist [08:39] mandrake has one [08:39] GPL'ed? [08:39] even LGPL would do [08:39] unknown about DFSG-free or not [08:40] Burgundavia: yeah...I have been using bazaar-ng for a while at work; works great [08:40] robitaille, just you? [08:40] bzr already? [08:41] Burgundavia: just me; I use it to track changes in some code of mine [08:41] cool [08:41] bzr is going to be baz2 and be ready by April 2006 [08:42] yeah [08:42] in time from Breezy+1 [08:42] but it's usable now (at least for my needs) [08:42] baz would be ready in a few weeks [08:43] jsgotangco, do you follow daily crack or what is in breezy? [08:43] vote dammit --> http://www.tuxmagazine.com/node/1000007 [08:45] not really i don't have that much stuff to break in the first place [08:45] Burgundavia, does your A5 connect to an AP via Gnome? [08:45] never tried it yet [08:45] going to try tomorrow [08:45] Burgundavia: the current numbers for that vote are probably the real numbers. [08:46] mine doesn't connect at setup at all [08:46] it got detected as eth0 [08:46] do people actually live in nunavut? [08:47] jsgotangco, yes [08:47] robitaille, huh? [08:48] about 30k --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunavut [08:48] jeezz [08:49] just for the canucks out there, I am seriously thinking of moving to Victoria [08:49] sweet [08:49] Burgundavia: 30% gnome, 50% KDE...sounds about right [08:49] robitaille, for an online survey, sure [08:49] Burgundavia: do you have better numbers? [08:49] jsgotangco: cool [08:50] robitaille, I don't trust online surveys [08:50] too easy to stack [08:50] jsgotangco: at this rate, forget the Canadian loco team, let's create a Victoria Loco team [08:50] we already have 3 [08:50] robitaille: only *after* we actually manage to meet in person! ;) [08:50] hah [08:51] robitaille, tux magazine is also heavily pro-KDE [08:51] yeah yeah...it will happen one day. maybe we should plan a bug night or something [08:51] yeah tux magazine is so Linspire [08:51] http://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2005-May/msg00087.html [08:51] Burgundavia: numbers I had heard before were 50%-66% KDE [08:52] robitaille: beer, pizza & laptops? (I don't have a laptop, but I've got a good house to host stuff in right now!) [08:52] at work we are a KDE/Mandriva shop...I'm probably the only gnome person around [08:52] http://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2005-August/msg00098.html [08:52] hmm they haven't thought of cutting you in half yet [08:53] robitaille, same with my last employer they are very heavy into Qt [08:53] i felt so alone that I decided not to continue my contract [08:53] well its not just about it anyways :) [08:53] hehe [08:53] jsgotangco, have you found a new job yet? [08:53] in our case, it's simply that that sysadmin like Mandrake. (but he has been trying Kubuntu at home this weekend...) [08:54] no I'm still open at the moment [08:54] Madpilot: yeah, sounds good. Has too be after 8pm for me...after kids go to bed :) [08:54] my birthday is soon hopefully i get a new one [08:54] argh KDE [08:55] thursday night this week? [08:55] robitaille: I can do that, tend to be a nightowl anyway... and Burgundavia appears to thrive on very little sleep... ;) [08:55] just need to check my work schedule before I completely commit to that [08:56] what do you do there? [08:56] cool. I'll even drag the router upstairs so ppl can connect without unplugging my box [08:56] (no wireless here... ) [08:56] hmm [08:57] no internet for me then [08:57] my wireless works in ubuntu, but not my wired [08:57] strange reversal [08:58] that's exactly the opposite of the standard complaint over on #ubuntu... [08:58] I got lucky with atheros and unlucky with some new gigabit nic [08:58] Madpilot: hopefully my laptop will be in town soon. it should be any days now. [08:59] mine is just good for Windows [08:59] nothing works [08:59] even hoary is horribly borked [09:01] jsgotangco: I'm afraid mine will be similar. A google search for my model type turns out very minimal (and unsuccesful) results. At least windows will work will I will in bug reports and play around with it. [09:02] mine is only good for playing games [09:03] it has an attitude of not wanting to reboot in Ubuntu [09:03] so i had to pull out the battery every now and then during an install/reboot [09:03]