[01:55] <bob_> what is UTC time in relation to GMT?
[01:57] <mpt> Normally identical, bob_
[01:58] <mpt> or I should say, nearly identical
[01:58] <mpt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time
[02:05] <bob_> ah, right, why not just say GMT then
[02:06] <Burgundavia> bob_, GMT is very colonial
[02:07] <bob_> I'm from a very colonial country
[02:18] <bob_> hmm, well if I have done my GMT to standard time conversion right I should be here for the meeting, now off for some coffee...
[02:49] <Moongirl^^> good day...
[02:50] <Moongirl^^> can anybody assist me how to become root user w/ ubuntu?
[02:51] <Burgundavia> wiki.ubuntu.com/RootSudo
[02:51] <Burgundavia> it is not recommended
[02:51] <Burgundavia> and #ubuntu is the main help channel
[02:51] <Moongirl^^> ok,  I will try it there.. thanks
[10:20] <jsgotangco> hi JaneW , ogra 
[10:22] <JaneW> hi jsgotangco 
[10:23] <jsgotangco> JaneW, i've edited http://www.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCookbook and it contains what we currently have although I hope i could upload somewhere an HTML of the cookbook
[10:24] <jsgotangco> More than half of it is done already and needs some revisions but what we should wait is Jonathan's troubleshooting guide
[10:26] <JaneW> jsgotangco: excellent thank-you
[10:26] <JaneW> jsgotangco: did you see ogra's screenshots?
[10:27] <ogra> http://www.grawert.net/edubuntu/
[10:27] <jsgotangco> i havent
[10:28] <ogra> its the basic work for the edubuntu-artwork package
[10:28] <ogra> just a first glance
[10:28] <jsgotangco> ogra, can i send you the html of the docbook output of the cookbook?
[10:28] <jsgotangco> and put it somewhere?
[10:28] <ogra> sure
[10:29] <jsgotangco> is this ogra colony?
[10:31] <ogra> nope... thats not even uploaded yet... i'm not happy with the way we handle the gdm default theme change (overwrite the whole config) and try to find a better way before
[10:31] <jsgotangco> man the fonts are beatiful
[10:34] <ogra> i'm really sad we cant get nvu ... 
[10:35] <ogra> and i'm still struggling with quanta, which heavily relies on docs that arent in main...
[10:35] <ogra> but the alternative would be screem, thats very complicated to use
[10:44] <jsgotangco> ogra, what's the correct email? ogra@ubuntu.com or oliver.grawert?
[10:45] <ogra> both work
[10:46] <jsgotangco> sent
[10:46] <ogra> thanks :)
[10:50] <jsgotangco> its not yet complete but the structure is there, feel free to give comments
[10:50] <jsgotangco> i may not know every feature that needs to be added
[10:54] <ogra> hmm, the edubuntu lab ? 
[10:54] <jsgotangco> im guessing!
[10:54] <jsgotangco> give me the correct term
[10:55] <ogra> hmm
[10:55] <ogra> i think you should drop the paragraph with the cages :)
[10:56] <ogra> Ideally, the room is secured with a gate and burglar bars on the windows, and the really expensive components of the Edubuntu lab are locked away even further, in another room or in a cage.
[10:56] <ogra> it might be appropriate for areas where you can expect pupils to steal the stuff... 
[10:57] <ogra> but i doubt you would have the hardware caged in germany...
[10:59] <ogra> i think all this securing stuff is ery specific...
[10:59] <jsgotangco> i can remove them all if needed
[11:00] <ogra> remove or rewrite it a bit more generic... safety is good, but it wont be this strict in most areas
[11:01] <jsgotangco> i can just rewrite for best safety practices instead of specifying the nuts and bolts as what they did in tuxlabs
[11:02] <ogra> i also dont think a switch cabinet is mandantory
[11:02] <jsgotangco> actually the whole lab layout can be omitted
[11:04] <ogra> no, but it needs some adjustment for us..
[11:05] <ogra> i'm just flying over it currently... (we have ui freeze in 2 days... i should rather fix packages ;) )
[11:05] <jsgotangco> its ok im not optimistic of having this manual by october
[11:05] <ogra> i'll look closer by the end of the week, just giving a first impression feedback now
[11:05] <ogra> jsgotangco, i am...
[11:06] <jsgotangco> thanks
[11:06] <ogra> there will be not as much to do for me as now after preview, we'll have time to work on it
[11:07] <ogra> and i'm fine with ignoring doc and artwork freeze for edubuntu
[11:07] <jsgotangco> ok thats good to hear
[11:07] <ogra> ...wont upset anyone if we do that in our own realm
[11:07] <jsgotangco> is the structure/flow good enough?
[11:08] <ogra> its like a howto... i like it
[11:09] <ogra> its like a howto... i like it'm just lookig at the printing part... we dont use the http interface in ubuntu
[11:09] <ogra> oops....
[11:10] <ogra> hmm, i'm not sure if i like to advise people to crimp their cables themselves... its very erroneous done by a inexperienced person
[11:11] <ogra> the users and groups part should be worked out very detailed
[11:12] <ogra> while the ltsp tftp ... configuration should be in place automatically after install ... we can either drop it or leave some generic descriptions how it works
[11:13] <ogra> we also should have some generic notes about using synaptic to install/remove software
[11:14] <ogra> much of this last troubleshhoting stuff relies on features that are still under development
[11:14] <ogra> so we'll have to wait until they are fully implemented
[11:15] <ogra> but its alerady very good :)
[11:16] <jsgotangco> yes im fully aware that there so many differences between the tuxlabs and ours
[11:16] <ogra> but its awesome for a start.... thanks :)
[11:17] <jsgotangco> it would be much easier if i was not the only one doing heh, but there's no rush in my part, it can be done in time
[11:17] <ogra> where is Burgundavia ? i thought he wanted to help you ?
[11:18] <jsgotangco> he has a job lately
[11:18] <ogra> oh, great to hear :)
[11:23] <jsgotangco> i will probably be out for a few days i got invited to talk to a series of schools and at the same time spend some time with family on my birthday
[11:24] <ogra> ok
[12:07] <jsgotangco> oh! i see we have a meeting later
[12:08] <ogra> oh, do we ? 
[12:08] <ogra> i also have a longish MOTU meeting today
[12:09] <jsgotangco> NEXT MEETING:  Wed 24 Aug 12:00 UTC on #ubuntu-meeting.
[12:09] <jsgotangco> i'll catch up later then, its grocey day
[12:10] <jsgotangco> later guys
[12:20] <DanielC> Greetings. Has anyone noticed that the instructions on http://www.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation  are numbered 1, 2, ... 9, 1, 2, ... ?
[12:20] <DanielC> After 9 there should be a 10 and then an 11 :-)
[12:21] <ogra> whoops
[12:21] <ogra> my fault i guess
[12:22] <DanielC> :-)
[12:22] <ogra> ah, no Documentation... isnt my fault, phew :)
[12:22] <DanielC> :-)
[12:22] <ogra> but thats not appropriate for breezy anyway
[12:23] <ogra> hoary is totally different....
[12:23] <DanielC> In any event, I'm stuck on step 10 (the one with a '2' next to it :) ). I don't know how to configure dhcpd to serve PXE/etherboot images.
[12:23] <DanielC> I have hoary :-)
[12:24] <DanielC> It looks like there is a sample dhcpd.conf file somewhere and someone just forgot to put the hyper-link.
[12:24] <ogra> i thought you followed http://www.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuTesting
[12:24] <ogra> its a lot easier
[12:24] <ogra> (no brainer install)
[12:24] <DanielC> really?  Ok, I'll follow those instead :-)
[12:25] <DanielC> This is my first time doing this, so no one expects me to get it all right the first time. :-)
[12:26] <DanielC> We made a deal with the local school. They don't pay for the service, and they let us learn us use their computers to learn how to setup thin clients.
[12:26] <ogra> the breezy install is done in 8 steps
[12:26] <ogra> are they PXE boot capable ? 
[12:26] <DanielC> Oh, good. The Hoary one is more complicated than that.
[12:27] <DanielC> We can get ethernet cards with etherboot ROMs.
[12:27] <ogra> ah...
[12:28] <ogra> i aim to have the installation down to 3 steps max in the end for breezy
[12:28] <DanielC> cool
[12:28] <DanielC> That would be awesome.
[12:29] <ogra> i.e. getting the CD, boot it,adding a admin user, and giving the ip range for the dhcp server
[12:29] <DanielC> how do I pick a range?
[12:30] <DanielC> I wouldn't know what to pick.
[12:30] <ogra> probably a question which interface does what will be needed, if you use two...
[12:30] <DanielC> 192.168.0.x I guess...
[12:30] <ogra> there will always be sane defaults
[12:30] <DanielC> good, I like sane defaults...
[12:30] <ogra> so you just have to hit enter and have a working environment...
[12:31] <ogra> i think it will ask for start of the range (i.e. 192.168.0.10), end of the range (i.e. 192.168.0.50) and the default gw (i.e. 192.168.0.1)
[12:31] <DanielC> I assume that the Edubuntu server is a DHCP server... point being, we should remove the current windows DHCP server, right?
[12:32] <ogra> you shouldnt run both in the same network....
[12:32] <DanielC> Ok, that's what I expected.
[12:32] <DanielC> I've told everyone that they'll have to make the windows server not serve DHCP.
[12:33] <ogra> do you have 2 NICs in the ltsp server ? 
[12:33] <DanielC> I can...
[12:33] <DanielC> do I need 2?
[12:33] <DanielC> I can just pop in another one.
[12:34] <ogra> then you can have one for the thin clinet network and one to talk to the win network...
[12:34] <ogra> so they dont need to shut down the windows dhcp server ;)
[12:34] <DanielC> ah
[12:34] <DanielC> Ok, I'll do that then.
[12:35] <DanielC> So it'd be:  windows network ---> Edubuntu ---> thinclients
[12:35] <DanielC> right?
[12:35] <ogra> yup
[12:35] <DanielC> ok, thanks for the tip.
[12:35] <ogra> you'll need to set up forwarding (NAT) on the server for the thin clients though... if the should be able to see the windows network
[12:36] <DanielC> I have never done forwarding before...
[12:39] <ogra> its not hard...
[12:39] <ogra> there are plenty of howtos for it... 
[12:40] <DanielC> My team-mate says that removing DHCP from the windows server is easy. So, maybe we'll just use one NIC and let Linux be the DHCP server.
[12:40] <DanielC> That's what I had in mind.
[12:40] <ogra> ok, as you like...
[12:40] <ogra> :)
[12:41] <DanielC> I'll learn NAT forwarding next time I do this :)
[12:41] <ogra> heh
[12:42] <ogra> i think its common to have two NICs in the ltsp server if you are connected to a outbound network with it
[12:42] <ogra> one for the thin clients and one connected to the network that routes you to the internet
[12:47] <DanielC> ok
[12:47] <DanielC> If I have two NICs but don't do anything else, will Edubuntu serve DHCP through both NICs?
[01:10] <JaneW> ***Reminder*** Edubuntu Dev Update Meeting in 50 Minutes on #ubuntu-meeting
[01:20] <jamey> Is Edubuntu ready for stable use in, say, a secondary school yet?
[01:21] <DanielC> Tell you next week :-)
[01:21] <DanielC> I don't know if it's ready, but I'm going to try it next week.
[01:21] <DanielC> The official stable release will be in October.
[01:22] <DanielC> But the school here doesn't want to wait until then, so I'll try using what's available today.
[01:22] <DanielC> I'm just installing it on my test server right now.
[01:23] <jamey> Thanks!
[01:23] <jamey> I'm trying to convince the IT tech at my old secondary school to switch over to it.
[01:24] <DanielC> You could try starting with just one classroom and see how it goes.
[01:24] <DanielC> That's what we're doing with this school.
[01:24] <jamey> Good idea. Where are you located, just out of interest?
[01:25] <DanielC> Birmingham, UK.
[01:25] <jamey> :O
[01:25] <jamey> Newport
[01:25] <jamey> (the Shropshire one!)
[01:25] <jamey> They have plenty of old systems we can use as clients, and an old P4 server with 2GB of RAM for testing.
[01:25] <jamey> lol!
[01:25] <jamey> it's not very far from birmingham whatsoever!
[01:26] <DanielC> cool
[01:26] <jamey> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=birmingham+to+newport,+shropshire
[01:26] <DanielC> thanks
[01:26] <jamey> np
[01:27] <jamey> Do you think you're going to have many compatibility problems or any software that doesn't have an "equivalent"?
[01:27] <DanielC> the company I work for (thelearningmachine.co.uk) specializes on school networks, and we're big on open source.
[01:27] <jamey> cool!
[01:27] <DanielC> Possibly, yes. That's why starting with just one classroom is a good idea.
[01:28] <DanielC> Not *every* computer has to have *every* program.
[01:28] <jamey> But doesn't every computer have the same as the server, since technically it's just a dummy terminal?
[01:28] <jamey> Or can you change it per-user?
[01:28] <jamey> (or group)
[01:28] <DanielC> We're big promoters of open source. For instance, I was in the OpenOffice.org community council until the last elections (a month ago).
[01:29] <jamey> cool I love OO.org
[01:29] <DanielC> Yes, but not every computer has to be running Linux.
[01:29] <DanielC> I'll explain.
[01:29] <jamey> okay :D
[01:29] <DanielC> Right now it's easiest to start with a mixed environment. Some computer run Windows and some computers run Linux.
[01:29] <DanielC> They can save money on the Linux computers.
[01:30] <jamey> yeah
[01:30] <jamey> definitely
[01:30] <JaneW> ogra: do you have a page with the URLs to the home pages of the apps we are including in edubuntu?
[01:30] <DanielC> And if there is some Windows software that doesn't have Linux equivalents (and there is) it's alright.
[01:30] <DanielC> They can just use the windows computers for those.
[01:30] <jamey> yeah
[01:30] <jamey> which apps don't have linux equivalents?
[01:31] <jamey> because if it's a typical school, we'll have the same problems I'm guessing
[01:31] <DanielC> I'm not too familiar with this issue, but the education expert here says that the UK curriculum, for example, requires all pupils to have practice operating a physical device (like a toy turtle) from a computer.
[01:32] <DanielC> And there is no easy-to-use Linux software that does that.
[01:32] <jamey> There must be!
[01:32] <DanielC> It sounds rather specialized, but every kid in the UK has to do this at some point. So no school can migrate 100% to Linux until this gets done.
[01:32] <jamey> Through an RS2323 serial port or something...
[01:33] <DanielC> I don't know all the issues. I just started here last month :-)
[01:33] <jamey> :D
[01:33] <jamey> do you know which app in Windows is good for what you just described
[01:33] <jamey> ?
[01:34] <DanielC> In any event, the schools expert here is Ian Lynch (ian.lynch@zmsl.com). If you want help moving your school to Linux, he's the guy to talk to.
[01:34] <DanielC> No, I don't know.
[01:34] <jamey> Cool, thanks very much.
[01:34] <jamey> Hm, I found this: http://dmoz.org/Computers/Robotics/Software/Control/
[01:35] <jamey> BTW, are you using Ubuntu now?
[01:35] <DanielC> On my desktop? yes.
[01:35] <jamey> Where did you move from?
[01:36] <jamey> I think Ubuntu really is unique in terms of Linux distros.
[01:36] <DanielC> I think so too.
[01:36] <DanielC> I've been moving around a lot.
[01:36] <DanielC> I lived 14 years in Venezuela, 9 in Canada, and 3 in the USA.
[01:37] <DanielC> I'm a dual Venezuelan and Canadian citizen.
[01:37] <jamey> :O
[01:37] <jamey> Amazing!
[01:37] <DanielC> :-)
[01:37] <jamey> :D
[01:38] <DanielC> Do you think that local school of yours might want to try out Linux?
[01:38] <jamey> definitely
[01:38] <DanielC> cool
[01:38] <jamey> But there is one underlying problem that would prevent them
[01:38] <DanielC> like what?
[01:38] <jamey> They are all part of an LEA network
[01:39] <DanielC> which?
[01:39] <jamey> TAW
[01:39] <jamey> you know it?
[01:39] <jamey> http://taw.org.uk/
[01:39] <DanielC> Uhm... no, not really.
[01:39] <jamey> well it's completely Microsoft-run.
[01:39] <jamey> and it's incredibly slow, unreliable and buggy
[01:39] <DanielC> :-(
[01:39] <jamey> I used it for 3 years
[01:39] <jamey> I know...
[01:39] <jamey> oh yeah
[01:39] <jamey> I think a good way to get the thing you were describing (where every child must at one time use a computer to control an external robot) is by using Lego Mindstorms.
[01:39] <DanielC> Could you double-check that URL?
[01:39] <jamey> woops
[01:39] <jamey> probably with a www. prefix
[01:40] <jamey> http://www.taw.org.uk/
[01:40] <jamey> yeah that's right ^
[01:40] <DanielC> yeah, there it is.
[01:40] <jamey> that site is pathetic
[01:40] <jamey> it waffles on about irrelevant material and doesn't focus on what it really is
[01:40] <DanielC> :)
[01:40] <jamey> apparently, the TAW is the "most advanced" network of its kind in the UK
[01:40] <jamey> I beg to differ.
[01:41] <DanielC> what kind is it?
[01:41] <jamey> sorry *TAW network
[01:41] <jamey> it's just a sort of domain-based WAN
[01:41] <DanielC> ok
[01:41] <jamey> I'm not sure how I can describe that much further?
[01:41] <DanielC> It's ok.
[01:41] <DanielC> I'll ask Ian. He probably knows it well.
[01:41] <jamey> cool
[01:41] <DanielC> He's been on the education sector for ages.
[01:42] <jamey> woah
[01:42] <jamey> he sounds like the guy in the know
[01:42] <DanielC> :-)
[01:43] <DanielC> As long as the school isn't into the Microsoft schools agreement, they could save money doing a small Linux trial. Like, just one or two classrooms.
[01:43] <jamey> Yeah, definitely.
[01:43] <jamey> Well when you say "schools agreement" is that separate from the EULA, or just some legal extension?
[01:43] <jamey> Is it okay if I email Ian?
[01:43] <DanielC> sure
[01:43] <jamey> cool thanks
[01:44] <DanielC> Ian is a nice guy.
[01:44] <jamey> cool
[01:44] <jamey> who can I say you are? lol
[01:44] <DanielC> oh, I'm Daniel.
[01:44] <jamey> :D
[01:44] <DanielC> Daniel Carrera.
[01:44] <DanielC> I'm the only Daniel here.
[01:45] <DanielC> This is a small company. There are 4 employees.
[01:45] <DanielC> Not including Ian and his wife.
[01:46] <jamey> :O wow!
[01:46] <jamey> so you do all kinds of *nix-related stuff?
[01:46] <DanielC> Well, "all kinds" would be an overstatement.  :-)
[01:47] <DanielC> I'm the Linux guy here, yes. But I'm by no means an expert.
[01:47] <jamey> Ah, cool.
[01:47] <DanielC> I'm just learning how to setup Linux thin clients. I've never done this before.
[01:47] <jamey> Me neither
[01:47] <DanielC> But I have a better chance of figuring it out than anyone else here.
[01:47] <jamey> Well, I'm experienced with win32 and a newbie in terms of *nix and *BSD. But I'm learning.
[01:47] <jamey> :D
[01:47] <DanielC> :-)
[01:48] <DanielC> My experience is mostly in Linux actually. I've never owned a Windows computer.
[01:48] <jamey> :O
[01:48] <DanielC> And I only touch Windows about twice a year when I go dis-infect my parents' computer.
[01:48] <jamey> Fascinating.
[01:49] <DanielC> My first computer was a 486 running Slackware.
[01:49] <jamey> I've got 30 Ubuntu CDs here from ShipIt, ready to convert anyone I can.
[01:49] <jamey> That's pretty amazing!
[01:49] <DanielC> cool
[01:49] <JaneW> ***Reminder*** Edubuntu Dev Update Meeting in 10 Minutes on #ubuntu-meeting
[01:49] <jamey> My first machine was a Compaq 386SX-25 (oh it was a powerhouse!)
[01:49] <jamey> What sort of things are discussed in that meeting?
[01:49] <ogra_ltsp> the development status
[01:50] <jamey> okay thanks
[01:50] <JaneW> ogra: do you have a page with the URLs to the home pages of the apps we are including in edubuntu? (I have someone hounding me for it)
[01:51] <jamey> DanielC, well I just sent an email to Ian. It didn't really make much sense (slightly disjointed) but I hope he gets the idea. :D
[01:51] <jamey> JaneW, http://www.edubuntu.org/ApplicationSelection
[01:51] <JaneW> ogra: luckilly the meeting is earlier today - I have a wine tasting after - I am sure I won't be able to type at all after that ;)
[01:51] <ogra_ltsp> heh
[01:52] <JaneW> jamey: there's no URLs
[01:52] <jamey> oh sorry, misread that
[01:52] <ogra_ltsp> i have a horrible long MOTU meeting afterwards... and a mdz awaiting some source changes for the screensaver
[01:52] <JaneW> perhaps I'll tell the guy to damn well goggle them himself...?
[01:52] <jamey> JaneW, can't you just search for each one on http://packages.ubuntu.com/ ?
[01:52] <ogra_ltsp> JaneW, i'll add links ... there are none yet, i'll have to look them up myself
[01:53] <JaneW> ogra: not to worry...
[01:53] <ogra_ltsp> jamey, i guess this guy wants screenschots etc
[01:53] <JaneW> google even
[01:53] <ogra_ltsp> yup, i'd do the same...
[01:53] <DanielC> jamey: Ok. I can probably fill in the gaps.
[01:53] <jamey> ah okay
[01:53] <JaneW> ogra: he is getting me to do his work, he asks about 3 questions a day
[01:53] <jamey> DanielC, thanks!
[01:53] <ogra_ltsp> bah
[01:54] <JaneW> and claims we are collaborating, but he is just getting me to find answers to things his boss has clearly asked him...
[01:54] <ogra_ltsp> heh
[01:54] <ogra_ltsp> is this the guy who asked for a book on the mailing list ?
[01:54] <ogra_ltsp> pere, how do you guys handle wikipedia in skole, do you have a hack for moin ? 
[01:55] <jamey> Has anyone here started an SFD team for Software Freedom Day?
[01:55] <ogra_ltsp> pere, we just have a discussion about mediawiki security....
[01:55] <pere> ogra_ltsp: I'm not aware of any special requirements for wikipedia, and do not believe we include anything special for it.
[01:56] <ogra_ltsp> so its up to the admins to make it work ? 
[01:56] <pere> I'm not sure if anyone tried.  At least I have not seen anyone talking about such problem.  
[01:57] <ogra_ltsp> our rationale for including mediawiki was that wikipedia doesnt work with moin, thats why i ask....
[02:02] <DanielC> Why is gperiodic not going to be included in Edubuntu?  (I don't care, I'm just curious).
[02:03] <ogra_ltsp> because we have calzium
[02:03] <ogra_ltsp> kalzium
[02:03] <DanielC> ah
[02:03] <DanielC> thanks
[02:03] <ogra_ltsp> and we dont want two apps for the same task
[02:04] <DanielC> Which is in keeping with the Ubuntu mindset (which I like).
[02:04] <jamey> I really like that too.
[02:07] <DanielC> Does anyone have any experience on whether primary school kids should get KDE or Gnome?
[02:08] <jamey> Hm, I've done informal testing... we had two workstations with a KDE and then a Gnome desktop. Everyone seemed to prefer the Gnome desktop... but then they were primarly early-on secondary school students (year 7 and 8).
[02:08] <jamey> So, unconclusive I suppose but it's Gnome in my eyes.
[02:09] <DanielC> ok
[02:09] <DanielC> I admit that my bias is for Gnome, but I'm trying to not let my bias get in the way too much.
[02:09] <jamey> I suppose it's an age-old question but this time it's really relevant
[02:10] <DanielC> yeah...
[02:10] <jamey> Both of them provide a lot of Windows-like interfacing
[02:10] <jamey> which is what they will be "used to" but it's really instead what is "better" for them
[02:10] <DanielC> KDE is more windows-like but I count that as a minus :)
[02:11] <jamey> I was hazardous as to whether I should say that. :D
[02:11] <jamey> definitely a minus
[02:11] <DanielC> :-)
[02:11] <jamey> Do you have any ideas for promoting FOSS?
[02:12] <DanielC> I do actually...  http://theingots.org  :-)
[02:12] <DanielC> This is a project that we are starting.
[02:12] <DanielC> It's a certification for school kids.
[02:13] <DanielC> The thing about it is that it requires kids to learn about FOSS, open standards and compatibility.
[02:13] <DanielC> So it's a way to educating kids. And it's designed to make teacher's life easy.
[02:14] <DanielC> We currently have 50 schools in the UK doing this, and it's been working very well.
[02:14] <DanielC> The schools like it because it's easy for them to do, and the kids get a certificate.
[02:14] <DanielC> We like it because kids learn about FOSS and we get (I think) 2 pounds per certificate.
[02:15] <DanielC> There are 3 levels: Bronze, Silver and Gold. The Bronze level should be accessible to almost anyone. For example, in Bronze they need to learn that some programs are free to copy and others aren't.
[02:16] <eps> evening all
[02:16] <DanielC> In Silver, they have to burn a CD of a FOSS program and give it to someone who'd find it useful.
[02:16] <DanielC> In Gold they need to contribute 25 hours to a FOSS project.
[02:16] <DanielC> :-)
[02:16] <DanielC> eps: evening
[02:16] <eps> how are you all tonight?
[02:17] <DanielC> doing well.
[02:17] <DanielC> most people are in a meeting right now...
[02:17] <eps> so I guessed, :)
[02:19] <eps> ...I might sit in the meeting channel as switching tabs is painfully slow - using ubuntu on a 733mhz box and it doesn't multi task as well as my home system :P
[02:29] <Petaris> anyone know of a good molecular viewer for kids
[02:30] <Petaris> you know something simple that will show H2O and such
[02:30] <DanielC> There's probably something here:  http://www.edubuntu.org/ApplicationSelection
[02:30] <DanielC> let's see...
[02:31] <DanielC> If all else fails, let them play with atomix.
[02:32] <DanielC> Ghemical looks good.
[02:32] <DanielC> http://www.uku.fi/~thassine/ghemical/
[02:33] <DanielC> It says here that it's a big buggy. But you can try it.
[02:39] <Petaris> hrm
[02:39] <Petaris> if its easy enough to use that might work
[02:39] <eps> this poor ubuntu box hates life :(
[02:39] <Petaris> eps: run getoo on it ;)
[02:39] <Petaris> er, gentoo
[02:39] <DanielC> Petaris: I hope it is. I've never tried it. But I think I will this week.
[02:40] <eps> hahaha
[02:40] <eps> gentoo isn't an option :)
[02:40] <Petaris> DanielC: I found a ton of them but they are mostly college level apps
[02:40] <eps> this computer is the test bed to possibly sway a large percentage of the schools in this state to switch to linux for part of their teaching :)
[02:40] <eps> it needs to be as simple and sexy as possible
[02:41] <DanielC> eps: thin clients then?
[02:41] <eps> to bad it is crap and old :P
[02:41] <DanielC> It's probably the easiest way to make a 700 Mhz computer simple and sexy.
[02:42] <Petaris> eps: which state?
[02:42] <DanielC> I have a 900 Mhz computer with Ubuntu and i like it.  But a lot of people like more eye candy than what I have.
[02:42] <DanielC> Don't take me wrong, my computer looks really good to me :)
[02:42] <eps> Petaris, I believe you are in a different country to me(?), are you familiar with Australian states?
[02:43] <DanielC> sure we are!
[02:43] <eps> DanielC, this one is running LAMP in the background :) ...well the L in the forground
[02:43] <Petaris> eps: not really
[02:43] <DanielC> :-)
[02:43] <eps> Petaris, one of the bigger ones :)
[02:43] <DanielC> western Australia is big.
[02:43] <eps> not that one :
[02:43] <eps> second biggest
[02:43] <eps> queensland :D
[02:44] <DanielC> I have a good friend in Queensland!
[02:44] <DanielC> I've been wanting to visit.
[02:44] <eps> I've already worked at getting the schools to move to php over asp, didn't get overly far but this is attempt two :)
[02:44] <DanielC> Maybe I will some day. She says it's nce.
[02:44] <DanielC> nice.
[02:44] <DanielC> Not too many evil snakes.
[02:45] <DanielC> Petaris:  http://www.staffordmall.com/media/australia-map.gif
[02:45] <eps> yes, we have one of the highest percentages of dealy animals on the planet
[02:45] <DanielC> I hear it's the highest.
[02:45] <DanielC> I hear that in Australia everything wants to kill you :)
[02:45] <eps> I would not be suprised :P
[02:46] <eps> yeah, the drop bears are terrible
[02:46] <eps> (excuse any horrid spelling it is late here and I haven't slept for two days :P)
[02:46] <DanielC> :)
[02:46] <eps> that map is also horrid :P
[02:46] <DanielC> it's functional...
[02:47] <eps> hahaha, I love where the ACT is :P
[02:47] <eps> mmmm, who ever made that map knows australia like the back of their hand alright!
[02:47] <eps> hehe
[02:47] <DanielC> what's the ACT?
[02:48] <DanielC> I assume it has something to do with the capital and all...
[02:48] <eps> it is the state created for the capital yes
[02:48] <eps> canberra is located within
[02:48] <DanielC> I just got another map, and it puts ACT someplace else.
[02:49] <DanielC> further inland
[02:49] <DanielC> and a heck of a lot smaller.
[02:49] <DanielC> http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~ldangerm/australia/map.gif
[02:49] <eps> I bet it does :)
[02:50] <DanielC> :-)
[02:52] <eps> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia
[02:52] <DanielC> ok
[02:52] <DanielC> I think I've probably read this before.
[02:53] <DanielC> I'm an avid Wikipedia reader.
[02:54] <eps> hehe :P
[02:56] <eps> I tend to use wikipedia a lot,
[02:57] <eps> I like how every post can be argued in the background so you can read the "facts" and then see if people believe there is bias or not
[02:57] <DanielC> yeah
[03:00] <eps> I worry that edubuntu lacks the structure required to push forward a distribution? ...though that is only a first view comment as I've only read the site and been in channel
[03:01] <DanielC> well, edubuntu technically doesn't exist yet.
[03:01] <DanielC> the first release will be in October.
[03:01] <DanielC> I wouldn't expect them to have a full structure or whatever else set up right away.
[03:01] <eps> how long has the idea existed?
[03:01] <eps> ...at least for edubuntu
[03:02] <DanielC> I only heard about it a few months ago.
[03:02] <DanielC> I first heard about it 2 months ago I think.
[03:02] <eps> that is a worry :|
[03:02] <DanielC> A first priority is to just get a stable software distribution when Breezy comes out.
[03:03] <eps> ...
[03:03] <eps> why?
[03:03] <DanielC> uhm... because otherwise edubuntu is just vaporware.
[03:03] <jsgotangco> eps: it was planned last april
[03:03] <jsgotangco> but unfortunately, real development came in quite late
[03:04] <jsgotangco> and the X.org problems didnt help either
[03:04] <DanielC> in other words... real life  :-)
[03:04] <jsgotangco> so its really not vaporware :)
[03:04] <eps> vaporware normally has some thing edubuntu seems to lack, clear dot point reasons for its existance and why people should use/put effort into its future
[03:04] <DanielC> Edubuntu has that I think.
[03:04] <eps> where? and why isn't it right at the top in the wiki...
[03:05] <eps> this is important stuff that every one should know and agree on
[03:05] <DanielC> Ubuntu is a solid base point on which to build an education product.
[03:05] <eps> ...at least in my opinion
[03:05] <jsgotangco> and besides, Edubuntu is basically Ubuntu with LTSP
[03:05] <jsgotangco> we will grow into that base
[03:05] <eps> yes but you haven't defined what an education product is
[03:05] <jsgotangco> not promise a super distro
[03:06] <DanielC> eps: schools are complex environments, with underpaid maintainers and malicious users. For starters, you need a system that can be installed and used reliably in that environment.
[03:06] <eps> I am part of an open community project here and several years ago we started in the same sort of fashion, now as the project has grown we are being forced to organise ourselfs which is very complicated as the development has been so patchy
[03:06] <DanielC> The next step is to select software that is useful in education. You may need to look at specific countries' curricula for this.
[03:07] <eps> (as I said, please _please_ ignore spelling :P)
[03:07] <DanielC> I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
[03:08] <eps> okay, what is edubuntus goal in four words.
[03:08] <DanielC> 4 words is not a lot :-)
[03:08] <DanielC> your question was more than 4 words.
[03:09] <eps> I shall give you an example, simple, secure, fun, useful
[03:09] <DanielC> I am not a fan of quick catch-phrases. They have a way of obscuring any useful information.
[03:10] <eps> this is a summary being forced into a smaller area to try and show my point, useful information should be quickly at hand :P
[03:10] <DanielC> how about two: usable, educational
[03:10] <eps> great!
[03:10] <eps> now how do you plan to do that over a period of time?
[03:10] <DanielC> me?
[03:10] <eps> no
[03:10] <DanielC> I'm not in the edubuntu team!
[03:10] <eps> edubuntu :P
[03:10] <DanielC> :-)
[03:10] <eps> the project
[03:11] <DanielC> You my want to try asking one of the developers  ;-)
[03:11] <eps> what I'm really trying to say is I can't see edubuntus future direction, if you just look for short term goal posts it is worse than catch-phrases because people become lost
[03:11] <DanielC> But they do seem to have a plan. For example,  http://www.edubuntu.org/ApplicationSelection
[03:11] <eps> I'd rather ask you :)
[03:11] <eps> or an every day person interested in it :|
[03:12] <DanielC> and this:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu
[03:12] <DanielC> They seem to have thought about this well, and have a fairly clear plan.
[03:12] <DanielC> Indeed... they seem to have a very clear plan.
[03:13] <eps> it seems they do
[03:13] <eps> so why is that so hidden?
[03:13] <DanielC> wha's hidden about it?
[03:13] <eps> it isn't the introduction to the site :)
[03:13] <DanielC> It's right on the front page.
[03:14] <DanielC> The front page has a big title that says "Specification".
[03:14] <eps> where?
[03:14] <DanielC> and that's where I found this link.
[03:14] <DanielC> It was in the first place I looked.
[03:14] <eps> oh you mean the link half way down the page after so many links people will possibly just ignore it? :P
[03:14] <DanielC> It was the *first* link I tried.
[03:15] <eps> I don't mean to be overly picky but this is just the thing I saw as I started looking at edubuntu today
[03:15] <DanielC> Notice that links are separated in clear headers, well organized.
[03:15] <eps> and I notice that there is far to many of them
[03:15] <jsgotangco> eps: the wiki page listed was an original spec by the Ubuntu and K12LTSP people
[03:15] <jsgotangco> i was in that brain storming
[03:16] <eps> jsgotangco, how does that effect me? 
[03:16] <DanielC> The first section tells you, in simple terms (2 paragraphs) what Edubuntu is. The rest of the page is clearly organized under easy to see headings.
[03:16] <jsgotangco> eps: it means that Edubuntu is not a one-shot project that came out of nowhere
[03:16] <DanielC> eps: You just asked for mutually exclusive goals. You want it short, but it you want it complete and clear.
[03:16] <eps> I would have closed the page after losing interest rather quickly because the information I wanted wasn't at hand right away...  the only reason I am here is because this does interest me :P
[03:17] <DanielC> The short description is the first paragraph of the front page.
[03:17] <jsgotangco> eps: you can help out instead of bitching about it
[03:17] <jsgotangco> shape the project
[03:17] <eps> jsgotangco, no I cannot.
[03:17] <DanielC> The details of how they will achieve the goal and what the precise requirements are can be found under Specifications.
[03:17] !lilo:*! services re-up in process
[03:18] <eps> I am completely new, so I have no indepth knowledge of the group at the moment so changing things in any fashion would be a waste of time.  what I am trying to do is point out, as some one completely new, is that I don't believe the project is clear enough.
[03:19] <jsgotangco> eps: we started late, yes i admit, but we didn't steer away from our goals some software cannot be added in the feature set for a lot of reasons
[03:19] <eps> why isn't the specifications link (the dot points on the project) right after the introduction
[03:19] <jsgotangco> so we had to be conservative in our initial goas
[03:19] <eps> jsgotangco, software doesn't bother me
[03:19] <jsgotangco> and it didnt help that Ubuntu breezy development itself had a lot of problems this cycle
[03:20] <DanielC> eps: it's not like it's hard to find.
[03:20] <eps> okay, I'm a new user.  breezy and software intents don't interest me, I want to know about the project and what it hopes to do in a clear statement - say the introduction on the wiki, with an easy link to some thing far more indepth :)
[03:20] <DanielC> eps: the page is very well designed (and yes, I have studied usability).
[03:21] <eps> DanielC, it was impossible to find.  I was browsing, I read the introduction, scrolled - saw the chat section and closed the page.
[03:21] <DanielC> impossible?
[03:21] <DanielC> I am new here too btw.
[03:22] <eps> the only reason I came in eariler today was that work was boring and I had freenode open :P
[03:22] <DanielC> This is my first time (first day) actually trying to use Edubuntu.
[03:22] <DanielC> I've just "heard" about it before.
[03:22] <jsgotangco> DanielC: did it work?
[03:22] <DanielC> And I found the link on the first try.
[03:22] <DanielC> jsgotangco: I'm on step 2 of the instructions  here http://www.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuTesting
[03:22] <eps> DanielC, impossible to find, I spent maybe 30 seconds on the site before I left becaus the infromation I wanted wasn't "right there".  others I know that read it closed it long before then - one of which is a teacher :P
[03:23] <DanielC> jsgotangco: The installation went well. It had problems with X, but running 'sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg' fixed it.
[03:23] <jsgotangco> yes
[03:23] <jsgotangco> JaneW: look! http://linux.org.ph/events/linuxworld2005
[03:24] <DanielC> eps: And you expect this same person to want to read the specifications page right away?
[03:24] <eps> DanielC, no, I expect the option to be available in plain view
[03:24] <eps> a "more info" link or some thing with more indeth information
[03:24] <DanielC> eps: The first paragraph tells you about what Edubuntu is. If you want to find out the nitty grinny details of how they plan to do this, I'd expect that you'd be willing to scroll down half a page.
[03:24] <JaneW> jsgotangco: awesome
[03:24] <JaneW> jsgotangco: do us proud!
[03:25] <jsgotangco> JaneW: demo scares me
[03:25] <DanielC> eps: People who are not interested in scrolling down so much (which is perfectly fine) are not likely to want to read the details.
[03:25] <eps> DanielC, I did scroll - I only found the chat channel location easily then I left
[03:25] <DanielC> The chat channel has *one* line. You didn't scroll further than that?
[03:26] <eps> DanielC, I only have limited understanding in the field of usability.  enough to know how to write a webpage that will attract and keep users so I don't get fired, and I am a user.  so I know you must be right as you have the knowledge, but this is just my opinion.
[03:26] <eps> DanielC, I scrolled because I was bored a bit before I went back to the ubuntu site
[03:26] <DanielC> If the issue was that there is a lot of content before the specifications page, I'd be on your side on this, but there isn't.
[03:27] <eps> there is three sections, it should be directly under or a new page defining basically the same thing but simpler should be created and linked to from the introduction
[03:27] <DanielC> A "more info" link would be incredibly vague.
[03:28] <DanielC> Should that point to documentation? specification? contact info?
[03:28] <eps> my complaint is this, the hook information is there - enough to keep some one on the page to find out more, but the way to get more is hard to find.
[03:28] <eps> DanielC, it isn't my project.
[03:28] <jsgotangco> ahhh unforutnately that is the wiki way
[03:28] <mpt> What's the problem here? Edubuntu's front page?
[03:29] <eps> jsgotangco, rubbish :P
[03:29] <jsgotangco> and moin isnt the greatest in organizing
[03:29] <jsgotangco> mpt: seems so
[03:29] <eps> mpt, access of information easily
[03:29] <ogra_> mpt, the localization
[03:30] <eps> jsgotangco, also, if wiki is the core problem why use it?
[03:30] <mpt> It's very long, and there's a huge amount of whitespace next to the people
[03:31] <eps> that is only minor in my mind unless you lack a scroll wheel :)
[03:34] <mpt> or unless you have a computer screen that's less than 4000 pixels high
[03:34] <mpt> A lot of the length is unnecessary, too, e.g. "Documentation Edubuntu related documentation can be found in EdubuntuDocumentation"
[03:34] <mpt> That tells me nothing in several different ways
[03:35] <DanielC> :)
[03:35] <jsgotangco> i will let mpt do the UI stuff
[03:35] <jsgotangco> :)
[03:36] <mpt> ok, first thing, the first text the page has is ... a link to itself
[03:36] <mpt> >BLAT<
[03:36] <eps> can I suggest adding a xmpp client? now that our lovely friends at google want to start supporting jabber I'd love to see every one using it ;P
[03:36] <eps> haha
[03:36] <DanielC> mpt: he he
[03:36] <eps> ...good thing I didn't click any links
[03:37] <mpt> eps: Maybe you did and didn't notice
[03:37] <mpt> :-)
[03:38] <eps> I have been living off coffee for most of the day so it is very possible :P
[03:38] <eps> I might have even clicked a few times :|
[03:39] <ogra_> JaneW, i probably wont be around on Aug 31
[03:39] <JaneW> ogra: ok - should we reschedule?
[03:39] <ogra_> JaneW, its my mothers b-day
[03:39] <JaneW> ogra: :)
[03:39] <ogra_> would two days later work too ?
[03:39] <mpt> http://www.pixelscapes.com/spatulacity/button.htm
[03:39] <JaneW> fri?
[03:39] <ogra_> is it a fri ?  
[03:40] <JaneW> yes wed + 2 = friday usually ;)
[03:40] <eps> hehe
[03:40] <JaneW> ok same time friday...
[03:40] <ogra_> every day is fine with me... but i'll have to travel some 100 km to her and i'm not sure about my connectivity during this time
[03:40] <JaneW> will you be away on the fri too?
[03:41] <JaneW> flint is a trouble maker!
[03:41] <ogra_> i'll make sure to be around again
[03:41] <jsgotangco> JaneW: this friday or next friday?
[03:41] <JaneW> NEXT
[03:41] <jsgotangco> oh right
[03:41] <jsgotangco> this friday we have doc meeting
[03:41] <jsgotangco> heh
[03:41] <eps> ogra where do you live that 100km is a long distance?
[03:41] <ogra_> eps, its about 400km ... in germany...
[03:42] <ogra_> eps, i said some 100km
[03:42] <DanielC> eps: In Europe 100km is a long distance :-)
[03:42] <DanielC> eps: Remember that Europe is smaller than Australia.
[03:42] <ogra_> heh, a bit, yes
[03:43] <JaneW> in Cape Town 100km is far
[03:43] <JaneW> in the rest of SA not
[03:43] <jsgotangco> same here
[03:43] <JaneW> but we have a big fat mountain to circumnavigate...
[03:43] <jsgotangco> 100km of manila traffic is terrible
[03:43] <JaneW> makes 10km awkward sometimes
[03:44] <jsgotangco> JaneW: are you going to Montreal?
[03:44] <JaneW> jsgotangco: seems so...
[03:44] <JaneW> jsgotangco: can you see how keen I am
[03:44] <JaneW> ?
[03:44] <JaneW> lol
[03:45] <jsgotangco> heh
[03:45] <jsgotangco> JaneW: 2 weeks
[03:45] <JaneW> nod
[03:45] <JaneW> 2.5 in my case
[03:45] <ogra_> jsgotangco, nope... only one for the distro team
[03:45] <jsgotangco> right
[03:45] <jsgotangco> 2nd week is launchpad
[03:45] <JaneW> 26 Oct to 11 Nov (plus a day travel in each side) close to 3 weeks I think
[03:46] <jsgotangco> JaneW: did you see the html preview i sent to ogra a few hours ago?
[03:46] <JaneW> oh not yet...
[03:46] <JaneW> lemme look
[03:47] <JaneW> wait where is it?
[03:47] <JaneW> was the link on IRC on in an e-mail...?
[03:47] <jsgotangco> err i have it in my other laptop...
[03:47] <ogra_> JaneW, i just forwarded it
[03:47] <jsgotangco> but wait 
[03:47] <jsgotangco> oh there you go
[03:48] <ogra_> sorry, i thought you were on cc
[03:48] <JaneW> I did see something earlier must have been on IRC
[03:48] <ogra_> yup
[03:49] <JaneW> nothing yet...
[03:49] <ogra_> give the mailservers a minute ;)
[03:49] <random003> bah, australia sucks for broadband :(
[03:50] <mpt> ogra_: How many minutes is "as few clicks as possible"?
[03:51] <ogra_> mpt, hmm, i never measured... but a bit longer then a ubuntu install
[03:51] <mpt> half an hour? an hour? two hours?
[03:51] <JaneW> jsgotangco: looking good - getting bigger
[03:51] <JaneW> jsgotangco: I take it the pics will be visible when viewed from the server?
[03:52] <ogra_> mpt, currently its ubuntu~20min for me and edubuntu ~1h but thats with ~30min download time for the ltsp environment... mdz will change that to work from CD in the future
[03:52] <jsgotangco> JaneW: should be i'm no scripting master but i should have it worked by then
[03:52] <ogra_> mpt, its hard to predict as logng as our CD isnt fully functional
[03:52] <jsgotangco> JaneW: im just dumping text at the moment
[03:52] <jsgotangco> JaneW: smart dumping i may add
[03:53] <JaneW> looks smart ;)
[03:53] <jsgotangco> :(
[03:53] <jsgotangco> you drink wine while i eat crumbs...
[03:54] <epssy> :P
[03:55] <JaneW> jsgotangco: oi you've had beer already!
[03:55] <JaneW> jsgotangco: anyway it's an office Team Building thing 
[03:55] <jsgotangco> its not that great really
[03:56] <jsgotangco> wow
[03:56] <jsgotangco> how come my former job didnt have wine tasting as team building
[03:56] <epssy> lol
[03:56] <JaneW> jsgotangco: one perk of driving all the way the the TSF offices is we get to join their socials...
[03:56] <jsgotangco> JaneW: drink a glass for my birthday
[03:56] <JaneW> jsgotangco: will do - today???
[03:56] <jsgotangco> sunday
[03:57] <JaneW> ok
[03:57] <JaneW> well happy birthday for Sunday!
[03:58] <jsgotangco> not really going to do much heh
[03:58] <jsgotangco> wow
[03:58] <jsgotangco> i just received an email
[03:58] <jsgotangco> i am vindicated
[03:58] <jsgotangco> heh
[03:58] <jsgotangco> my alma mater invited me to do a talk
[03:58] <JaneW> cool
[03:58] <JaneW> the recognition you deserve...
[03:59] <epssy> goodnight all
[03:59] <ogra_> night epssy 
[03:59] <jsgotangco> good thing these invitations come when i am quite free at the moment
[03:59] <epssy> :)
[04:00] <JaneW> bye all
[04:00] <JaneW> tomorrow
[04:00] <jsgotangco> JaneW: i actually dated my professor once
[04:00] <JaneW> jsgotangco: oic.... I won;t ask the gender ;)
[04:00] <JaneW> *duck*
[04:00] <jsgotangco> hahaha
[04:00] <JaneW> or age!
[04:00] <jsgotangco> :P
[04:01] <JaneW> and in some cases smelly too
[04:01] <JaneW> cleary I studied in the wrong field
[04:01] <jsgotangco> haha
[04:02] <ogra_> JaneW, arts is good ;) you can see nice male nudes in the painter classes ;)
[04:03] <jsgotangco> i should have taken medicine...
[04:03] <ogra_> are you ill ? :p
[04:03] <jsgotangco> no just have no focus career wise at the moment
[04:04] <jsgotangco> a few pints will always do this hehe
[04:04] <ogra_> medicine against career *g*
[04:05] <jsgotangco> did i read that right that you were a nurse???
[04:05] <ogra_> nope, not a nurse...
[04:05] <ogra_> rather replacement for missing bodyparts :)
[04:06] <jsgotangco> ehhh???
[04:06] <ogra_> the medicine stuff was done by real nurses
[04:06] <jsgotangco> oh wait they call it something
[04:06] <ogra_> i cared for handicapped people, especially for young dying ones below 40
[04:07] <ogra_> but i'm not allowed to give shots etc....
[04:07] <jsgotangco> hmm i dont think i can do that kind of job
[04:07] <Petaris> hrm, looks like ghemical is broken
[04:08] <ogra_> in what way ? 
[04:09] <ogra_> ( i mean we dont use it anyway, but you should file a bug in malone about it)
[04:09] <ogra_> (so MOTU can fix it)
[04:12] <wen> HI
[04:12] <DanielC> hi
[04:12] <wen> are u a teacher?
[04:12] <DanielC> nope
[04:12] <wen> sorry, what is the meaning of "nope"? Is it english?
[04:13] <DanielC> It's a way of saying "no".
[04:13] <DanielC> I am not a teacher.
[04:13] <jsgotangco> its slan
[04:13] <jsgotangco> g
[04:13] <wen> i see
[04:13] <ogra_> IRC slang :)
[04:13] <DanielC> "yup" means "yes" and "nope" means "no". Some people like to use those words.
[04:13] <ogra_> yup
[04:13] <DanielC> :-)
[04:14] <mpt> and not just on IRC.
[04:14] <jsgotangco> yeah
[04:14] <DanielC> yup
[04:14] <wen> i am wondering why u are interesting in developping a Linux version for education since u are not teacher.
[04:14] <jsgotangco> wen: what's up?
[04:14] <jsgotangco> wen: teacher's can't develop sometimes thats where we come in and help them out
[04:15] <DanielC> wen: I am not a developer. I am interested in learning Edubuntu so I can set it up in local schools.
[04:15] <ogra_> wen, because most teachers are not developers, but should be able to benefit from open source software
[04:15] <DanielC> wen: I work with a guy who /is/ a teacher though.
[04:15] <DanielC> wen: And I used to be a teacher myself, though in university.
[04:15] <jsgotangco> wen: i am not an educator myself but i am interested in the improvement of teaching methods
[04:15] <ogra_> we have some teachers around here from time to time
[04:15] <wen> are there some teachers of K12 in Edubuntu develop team?
[04:16] <ogra_> not yet, but the k12ltsp people are working with us...
[04:16] <DanielC> wen: Edubuntu is a young project. Maybe it will later.
[04:17] <jsgotangco> ogra_: yup
[04:17] <wen> now i have a problem in compiling my own kernel, could somebody help me?
[04:17] <DanielC> why do you need to compile a new kernel?
[04:17] <jsgotangco> ogra_: colin (applegate) is elkner's student
[04:18] <ogra_> jsgotangco, ah
[04:18] <ogra_> oki
[04:18] <DanielC> wen: I've never met someone with a good reason to get a new kernel.
[04:18] <ogra_> wen, we dont compile kernels in ubuntu, there is no need for that
[04:19] <wen> i just try compile my own kernel for a test
[04:19] <DanielC> I haven't compiled a kernel in 5 years... I'm not sure I remember how.
[04:19] <DanielC> make xconfig I think.
[04:20] <jsgotangco> you only compile if you really have something really different to do
[04:23] <jsgotangco> the last thing i really compiled was slackware
[04:23] <wen> Edubuntu will focus on acting as the school's server or students' desktop OS?
[04:23] <jsgotangco> i haven't even mentioned gentoo
[04:24] !lilo:*! If you've been having difficulty maintaining a TCP connection on the production network, please try the test network and see if you have the same problems. Server: irc.freenode.net; port: 9001 .... thanks!
[04:25] <ogra_> wen, edubuntu will be a standaolne ltsp server by default aimed to one classroom... it will also have a  option to install a standalone workstation for home use
[04:26] <wen> is ltsp based on FC and edubuntu based on Debian?
[04:27] <jsgotangco> ogra_: do we use bugzilla or malone?
[04:27] <ogra_> jsgotangco, bugzilla for main and malone for universe
[04:27] <ogra_> wen, nope edubuntu is based on ubuntu
[04:28] <ogra_> wen, ltsp is one package of edubuntu... developed in ubuntu
[04:29] <DanielC> wen, edubuntu is based on ubuntu, and ubuntu is based on Debian.
[04:29] <wen> is ltsp not the "k12ltsp" (www.k12ltsp.org) linux distribution?
[04:29] <DanielC> I think so.
[04:30] <DanielC> I think it's the same... someone will correct me if I'm wrong :-)
[04:30] <ogra_> wen, ltsp in ubuntu is completely new developed from the ground up
[04:30] <DanielC> I did not know that.
[04:30] <DanielC> why is that desirable?
[04:31] <ogra_> security, upgradeability
[04:31] <DanielC> is k12ltsp insecure?
[04:33] <ogra_> it opens X to the world.... doesnt support encryption
[04:33] <jsgotangco> ogra_: it worked!!!!!!
[04:33] <ogra_> i personally consider it insecure
[04:33] <ogra_> yay
[04:33] <DanielC> ok, thanks
[04:33] <DanielC> I'll trust your judgement :-)
[04:33] <jsgotangco> i connected the two laptops
[04:34] <jsgotangco> what a sucky login page though is this xdm?
[04:34] <ogra_> DanielC, our ltsp is built to work over ssl tunnels instead of open X exports
[04:34] <ogra_> jsgotangco, :p
[04:34] <DanielC> cool
[04:34] <ogra_> jsgotangco, i wrote the gui
[04:34] <jsgotangco> reminds me of gnome 1.0
[04:34] <jsgotangco> acckkk sorrryyy
[04:34] <ogra_> lol
[04:34] <ogra_> jsgotangco, i know it sucks ;)
[04:35] <jsgotangco> it works
[04:35] <ogra_> but its classes better then what we had before :)
[04:35] <jsgotangco> we'll worry about aesthetics later
[04:35] <jsgotangco> hmmm its quite fast...possibly because im only on cross cable?
[04:36] <ogra_> jsgotangco, tahts what we discussed at the meeting...
[04:36] <ogra_> jsgotangco, nope, it *is* quite fast ;) but boots slower then k12
[04:36] <jsgotangco> ooppsss sorry...i should just read th scrollback
[05:00] <highvoltage> is editing html programming? ubuntu puts bluefish and quanta under programming.
[05:01] <highvoltage> weird.
[05:01] <DanielC> maybe if you have Javascript :)
[05:01] <DanielC> or php!
[05:01] <ogra_> nvu is in internet and programming
[05:01] <DanielC> php sure is programming.
[05:01] <mwest> HTML, JavaScript and PHP are not programming :-)
[05:01] <DanielC> PHP is definitely programming.
[05:01] <DanielC> What is programming that PHP doesn't have?
[05:02] <macgyver2> mwest, what is your definition of programming?
[05:02] <mwest> DanielC: it's scripting ;)
[05:02] <mwest> macgyver2: I'm mostly being facetious - happens when you have a CS degree :-)
[05:02] <DanielC> uhm... what makes a language scripting but not programming?
[05:03] <macgyver2> mwest, I was half-serious :)
[05:03] <highvoltage> ok. if you say so. bye!
[05:04] <mwest> it basically stems from the fact that IS majors tend to think they can programme because they "know Visual Basic"
[05:04] <macgyver2> mwest, out of curiosity, what languages did your CS program use?
[05:04] <DanielC> what is IS?
[05:04] <mwest> so the general feeling is that Java, C/C++, Python, etc. are "real programming languages", while things like JavaScript, BASIC, et al are not
[05:04] <mwest> DanielC: Information Systems
[05:04] <DanielC> ok
[05:05] <mwest> macgyver2: Java, C++ and recently Python :-)
[05:05] <DanielC> Incidentally, I'm a mathematecian, not an IS.
[05:05] <mwest> macgyver2: and a bit of Lisp and Haskell for FP
[05:05] <macgyver2> mwest, nice
[05:05] <DanielC> PHP is definitely a programming language. I don't know VB, and I don't want to learn it. I'm happy with C, PHP, Perl, Ruby and Python.
[05:06] <DanielC> Haskell rocks.
[05:06] <mwest> DanielC: used Ruby-on-Rails at all?  I'm loving it
[05:06] <DanielC> I haven't actually.
[05:06] <ogra_> even if there are ugly languages and less ugly ones :)
[05:06] <mwest> DanielC: if you ever have to do any web-based interfaces to a SQL db, give it a try
[05:07] <jsgotangco> im a rails user myself
[05:07] <DanielC> I think it's reasonable to require programming languages to have conditions and looping. But any language that has that should be considered programming.
[05:07] <jsgotangco> but ogra beg to differ on ruby
[05:07] <DanielC> mwest: I like PHP for SQL db.
[05:07] <jsgotangco> :)
[05:08] <DanielC> mwest: I'm currently maintaining a site with PHP+Smarty+MySQL.
[05:08] <mwest> DanielC: PHP is like candy - easy sweetness, but too much of it is bad for you :-)
[05:08] <DanielC> bah! I've heard the same about Perl.
[05:08] <jsgotangco> smarty?
[05:08] <DanielC> smarty is a PHP product.
[05:08] <mwest> jsgotangco: web templating in PHP, quite nice to work with
[05:09] <DanielC> I like it :)
[05:09] <mwest> DanielC: I am less of a fan of perl than I am of PHP
[05:09] <ogra_> php is ok, the problem with it is that its heavily broken security wise, its holes will bite you sooner or later
[05:09] <mwest> ogra_: suphp :-)
[05:09] <mwest> php on Ubuntu should come with suphp installed by default, ala the OpenBSD php packages
[05:09] <ogra_> <-- doesnt like php, but appreciates people who do it to get the job done
[05:10] <ogra_> as i do for every lang...
[05:10] <ogra_> even gambas might be ok to get done what you need
[05:10] <Arianna> :-)
[05:10] <Arianna> Hi
[05:10] <Platyna> (-;
[05:11] <Platyna> Heja.
[05:11] <jsgotangco> hi
[05:11] <DanielC> hi
[05:11] <Arianna> Is there any "developer" or just edubuntu users?
[05:12] <ogra_> Arianna, how can i help ?
[05:13] <Arianna> ogra, well, it is maybe a bit farfetched, but I ll try :-)
[05:13] <Arianna> ogra, I got an hint over this educational version of Ubuntu. I have been working on a project (open source) that has educational purposes and it is in english.
[05:13] <Arianna> it is a 3D MORPG
[05:14] <jsgotangco> a game?
[05:14] <Arianna> Maybe it is completely out of the path, but maybe not... 
[05:14] <Arianna> yes, it is.
[05:14] <jsgotangco> go on
[05:14] <Arianna> www.reflex.lth.se/culture/annelov This is the link.
[05:15] <DanielC> what's MMO ?
[05:15] <ogra_> Arianna, we are using the same package base as ubuntu, so if you get it included in ubuntu universe, you can use it as well in edubuntu
[05:15] <jsgotangco> DanielC: Massively Multiplayer Online
[05:15] <DanielC> ah, thanks
[05:15] <Arianna> ogra, so I should contact ubuntu people, correct?
[05:16] <jsgotangco> Arianna: MOTU people
[05:16] <Arianna> Anyway, if anybody else is interested in know more I can just explain.
[05:16] <ogra_> Arianna, yes, +ubuntu-motu is the place for universe packages
[05:16] <ogra_> #ubuntu-motu indeed
[05:16] <Arianna> ok :-)
[05:16] <jsgotangco> wow it looks nice
[05:16] <Arianna> well, the graphics is what it is since I learnt during the project to model ;P
[05:17] <jsgotangco> i see a screenshot of a man being burned as a sacrifice?
[05:17] <Arianna> the code is quite stable, but there are bugs - of course - also due to my deadlines and the engine itself (Planeshift engine)
[05:17] <ogra_> Arianna, btw, siretart leads the MOTUGames team.... he's probably the right one to nag ;)
[05:17] <Arianna> yes, more than a sacrifice is the funeral rite during Bronze Age. The setting of the game is Bronze Age.
[05:17] <Arianna> Ok, ogra, I ll try to nag him, then. Thanks for the tip :-D
[05:18] <Arianna> oh, here he is.
[05:20] <Platyna> See you. ;)
[05:29] <mpt> ok, http://edubuntu.org/ updated
[05:29] <mpt> not perfect, but it's a start
[05:29] <jsgotangco> yay
[05:32] <ogra_> mpt, our first goal isa standalone ltsp classroom server, no workstations.... 
[05:33] <ogra_> the workstation option will be available additionally like ubuntu currently has the server bootoption for the install CD
[05:34] <ogra_> we'll only support thin clients by default
[05:34] <jsgotangco> ogra_: will edubuntu get discussed in montreal or in a different venue like that in london?
[05:35] <ogra_> jsgotangco, i hope so, since we have all the ltsp developers around
[05:35] <ogra_> (k12ltsp)
[05:35] <jsgotangco> right
[05:35] <mpt> ogra_: fixed
[05:36] <ogra_> thanks :)
[06:04] <ogra_> yay, we have java !!
[06:06] <jsgotangco> eh?
[06:07] <ogra_> jsgotangco, we have blackdown java in multiverse 
[06:09] <jsgotangco> oh thats great news indeed
[06:12] <jsgotangco>  I second the notion and would like to adopt the same strategy for Pakistan,
[06:12] <jsgotangco> we have already trained and certified over 4879 people as "Ubuntu-Linux
[06:12] <jsgotangco> Certified Users".
[06:13] <jsgotangco> loco-contacts list
[06:13] <jsgotangco> wow
[06:13] <jsgotangco> 4879 people
[06:26] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: where did they send that do? it's really amazing!
[06:26] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: i have no idea but FOSS is incredibly big in India/Pakistan
[06:50] <ogra> highvoltage, so did someone explain the build system to you while i fought with my devlish DSL ?
[06:51] <highvoltage> ogra: yes, mdz explained, which left me with more questions, but i think i should consult more with motu team, and find more docs.
[06:52] <ogra> so was i right with germinate ? i can explain you a bit
[06:56] <highvoltage> ok, that would be nice.
[07:05] <jsgotangco> good night
[07:47] <ball> Does a program's inclusion in "application selection" mean that it will be installed by default, or just that it's there if we want it?
[07:48] <ogra> ball, that was the list we discussed back at the summit
[07:48] <ball> ogra: right, but is that what ships with it, or what is actually /installed/?
[07:49] <ogra> the final list of stuff included on the CD (beyond the standard ubuntu desktop) is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuMainInclusion
[07:49] <ogra> thats also what gets installed by default
[07:49] <ball> Oh, ok.
[07:50] <ball> thanks.
[07:50] <ogra> additionally you have the whole set of ubuntu packages available online...
[07:50] <ogra> since edubuntu gets developed in ubuntu
[07:52] <ball> ogra: I should probably try it.  I'm wary of kitchen-sink-itis though.
[07:52] <ogra> http://www.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuTesting
[07:52] <ogra> ;)
[07:54] <ball> ...looks a bit complex, but I imagine that's because it's young.
[07:54] <ogra> its 5 steps... 
[07:55] <ogra> thats to complex ? 
[07:55] <DanielC> the step of configuring dphcp.conf scares me.
[07:55] <DanielC> The others are straight forward.
[07:55] <ball> Is there a system requirments page somewhere?
[07:56] <ogra> DanielC, just copy it as is ;) and make sure your server has 192.168.0.1 
[07:56] <ball> requirements*
[07:56] <DanielC> ogra: how do I make sure my server "has 192.168.0.1"?  What does that mean? (yes, I know what an IP is but...)
[07:56] <ogra> ball, not yet, but i test here with a pIII 900 with 256MB, thats enough for a single thin client... i guess even for two
[07:57] <ogra> DanielC, just make sure your interface has the static ip 192.168.0.1
[07:57] <DanielC> ah
[07:57] <ball> ogra: will it work on VIA C3 chips?
[07:57] <ogra> the the default shipped yonfig works
[07:57] <ogra> ball, why shouldnt it ?
[07:57] <DanielC> ogra: What do I need t do at the server end to do that?
[07:58] <ball> ogra: just checking ;-)
[07:58] <ball> Ah, just found WorkstationDefinitions.
[07:58] <ogra> DanielC edit /etc/network/interfaces 
[07:58] <ogra> ball, thats only for the clients and doesnt really apply to ltsp (only the thin client part)
[07:59] <ogra> DanielC, man interfaces expalins the syntax with examples
[07:59] <DanielC> ogra, thanks
[07:59] <ball> It might help if I knew a bit more about Linux
[08:00] <ogra> ball, edubuntu is a ltsp server/client distro... it installs a ltsp server where you attach diskless clients 
[08:00] <ball> ...is edubuntu meant for use with diskless workstations, graphical terminals or fat workstations?
[08:00] <ogra> (at least the default install)
[08:00] <ball> Ah, you answered my question before I asked it ;-)
[08:01] <ball> Are the diskless clients workstations (with apps running locally) or terminals (with apps running on the server)?
[08:01] <ogra> the final version will also have a standalone workstation install
[08:01] <ogra> all apps run on the server
[08:01] <DanielC> Should I configure DHCP to listen on both NICs or just the one that has thin clients?
[08:02] <ogra> only the one you configured for 192.168.0.1
[08:02] <DanielC> ok
[08:02] <ball> I should probably learn about ltsp.
[08:03] <ogra> ball, installing edubuntu is probably a good start to do that :)
[08:03] <DanielC> ball: thin clients means that they are disk-less clients and the apps run on the server.
[08:04] <DanielC> ball: Based on my experience, it's easier to start with either Edubuntu or SkoleLinux than with the k12ltsp page.
[08:05] <DanielC> ball: I'm interested in Edubuntu because (1) I love Ubuntu and (2) SkoleLinux has much older software.
[08:05] <ball> I only heard about ubuntu yesterday... a classmate mentioned it.
[08:05] <DanielC> :-)
[08:05] <ogra> DanielC, i guess there will be a new skole release soon 
[08:05] <ball> I know very little about Linux, but I'm open to the idea.
[08:05] <DanielC> ogra: Yeah, I think so.
[08:05] <ogra> DanielC, pere knows such things :)
[08:06] <DanielC> ball: You should definitely try Linux. I like it a lot. Ubuntu is a good distribution.
[08:06] <ball> I like the idea of diskless workstations or graphical terminals, I've used those in the bast.
[08:07] <DanielC> ball: I think that using Ubuntu will take you a long way in getting then hang of Linux, and Edubuntu. And Edubuntu will go a long way in teaching you LTSP.
[08:07] <ball> I'm surprised at how much edubuntu will install by default... imo it would be nice if I got to choose what was installed.
[08:07] <highvoltage> DanielC: Skolelinux has moved over to sarge, it's not that old anymore
[08:07] <ball> How much disk space do I need for the server?
[08:07] <highvoltage> but yes, edubuntu is probably a better bet  (once it's released)
[08:07] <DanielC> highvoltage: I checked the website today, and the Sarge release was still labeled as "unstable".
[08:08] <highvoltage> ball: about 2GB for installation, and then space for user files, and space for swap-over-nfs swapfiles.
[08:08] <DanielC> highvoltage: I installed the latest release today.
[08:08] <ball> eww... swap-over-nfs sounds bad.
[08:08] <highvoltage> DanielC: ok. they're taking a bit longer than i expected.
[08:08] <DanielC> ball: Well, it's a server that is meant to cover everything a school should need.
[08:08] <DanielC> ball: Ubuntu itself has a relatively small footprint.
[08:08] <DanielC> one of the things I like about it...
[08:09] <ogra> highvoltage, i think it depends what you want... if you want 50 servers that talk together and 500 thin clients served by them, edubuntu simply cant provide that yet
[08:09] <DanielC> ball: Another thing about Edubuntu is that, thanks to its Debian core, adding and removing packages is dead easy.
[08:10] <ball> Wierd to install stuff only to remove it straight away though... would it not be more efficient to ask before installing?
[08:10] <DanielC> ball: Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that it was the same. I just meant that if you want to remove something, it's not the end of the world.
[08:11] <DanielC> ball: On the other hand, Ubuntu's philosophy is heavily on the side of simplicity and usability.
[08:11] <ball> I don't know what the edubuntu filer thing is called, but can I restrict it to users' home directories?
[08:11] <ball> (and subdirectories thereof?)
[08:11] <DanielC> Other distributions make you choose from thousands of packages on install. Some people like that.
[08:12] <DanielC> ball: You can change permissions I guess...
[08:12] <DanielC> Restrictions work differently under Linux and Unix.
[08:12] <DanielC> What exactly do you want to restrict?
[08:12] <DanielC> What do you want the users to not do?
[08:13] <ball> DanielC: I only want them to see their own folder, none of the system folders... no /mnt, /etc and so on.
[08:13] <DanielC> why not?
[08:13] <highvoltage> ball: it's safe for users to see /etc, etc. they can't do anything if they see it. unless you've made some weird config mistake,
[08:14] <ball> DanielC: if they don't see it, they can't break it or be confused by it.  
[08:14] <highvoltage> like putting in a password to another machine in a config file.
[08:14] <DanielC> ball: It's not in the Unix philosophy to do that really...
[08:14] <DanielC> ball: They can't break it if they do see it.
[08:14] <highvoltage> ball: gnome does a good job of keeping users in their home directories ;)
[08:14] <ogra> ball, they cant break it
[08:14] <ball> I don't want them to see it.
[08:14] <DanielC> ball: Only the root super-user can touch /etc
[08:14] <highvoltage> you must really want to see more if you want to.
[08:14] <DanielC> Besides, they won't see if unless they actively go looking for it.
[08:15] <DanielC> which would require prior knowledge of it's existence.
[08:15] <ball> Is there a "parent folder" or "up one level" button on the filer?
[08:15] <highvoltage> DanielC: that's what i actually meant :) (the activley looking for part)
[08:15] <DanielC> ball: yes
[08:15] <ball> DanielC: I'd like that greyed out if they're in their home directory.
[08:16] <DanielC> ball: try this experiment. Boot an Ubuntu live CD and try to break something in /etc.
[08:16] <highvoltage> ball: they need to have access to /etc to log in.
[08:16] <highvoltage> otherwise they can't read /etc/passwd or /etc/shadow
[08:16] <ball> highvoltage: yes, but that doesn't mean they have to see it in their filer.
[08:16] <DanielC> ball: The way Unix is designed, there is no reason to not let them see /etc to have a very secure system.
[08:17] <ball> DanielC: I don't want them to see it.
[08:17] <DanielC> why not?
[08:17] <highvoltage> loop detected
[08:17] <DanielC> You are thinking in a very Windows way.
[08:17] <ogra> ball, you are right, but currently there is no filemanager in the world supporting that, not even on windows
[08:17] <ball> (well, not on my own machines ;-)
[08:17] <DanielC> ball: Mac?
[08:17] <ball> ogra: perhaps I should write one ;-0
[08:17] <ball> ;-)
[08:17] <ogra> yeah
[08:17] <ogra> :)
[08:17] <DanielC> ball: In Mac you can see /etc.
[08:18] <ball> DanielC: I don't use Macs very much
[08:18] <DanielC> what do you use then?
[08:18] <highvoltage> zx-spectrum
[08:18] <DanielC> If it's not Unix or Linux or Winblows or Mac...
[08:18] <highvoltage> it's a very secure platform, not one remote exploit since 1982
[08:18] <ball> On my own machines I use NetBSD, but I can't put that in front of civilians.
[08:19] <ball> highvoltage: I have fuse installed if that counts ;-)
[08:19] <DanielC> ball: Surely you would know that you can't hide /etc and that there's no good reason to.
[08:19] <ball> DanielC: I want to.
[08:19] <DanielC> ball:  chmod go-x /etc
[08:19] <highvoltage> DanielC: let ball learn the hard way, when the students want to open tuxpaint and it wont because it can't access /etc/tuxpaint/tuxpaint.conf
[08:20] <DanielC> :-)
[08:20] <ball> highvoltage: I'm not talking about turning off their access, just hiding it in the file browser.
[08:20] <ball> (show 'em their own folder, subfolders thereof and nothing else)
[08:20] <highvoltage> well, I suggets you try the file manager in gnome, it's really not that easy to navigate to /etc.
[08:20] <ball> I can put links to shared folders in their home folder.
[08:20] <DanielC> ball: how would that work? If they can access it, then so can the file browser.
[08:20] <highvoltage> you have to really *want* to get to /etc to see it.
[08:21] <DanielC> and they'll be bored as heck when they get to it.
[08:22] <DanielC> ball: I don't know what to suggest.
[08:22] <ball> Okay, if I accept that the user can browse the filesystem at will (file permissions permitting ;-) ...I suppose I need to think about hardware.
[08:23] <highvoltage> that might be a better use of time :)
[08:23] <ball> Do I need boot ROMs for the workstations?
[08:23] <highvoltage> boot roms are nice, but optional.
[08:23] <ball> s/workstations/terminals
[08:23] <highvoltage> you can also boot from floppies, or from hard disk.
[08:24] <highvoltage> you can get the images from http://rom-o-matic.net
[08:24] <DanielC> But floppies are flaky, and students like pulling them out and hiding them.
[08:24] <ogra> PXE enabled NICs rock :)
[08:24] <highvoltage> ogra: etherboot rocks more!
[08:24] <ogra> you dont have to think about anything...
[08:25] <highvoltage> ogra: he doesn't?
[08:25] <DanielC> Is there any practical difference between etherboot and PXE?
[08:25] <DanielC> Will both work on Edubuntu for instance?
[08:25] <ogra> highvoltage, not with PXE NIC ;)
[08:25] <highvoltage> DanielC: etherboot is free software, which does have quit a few practical implications, imo :)
[08:25] <DanielC> ok
[08:25] <highvoltage> ogra: what do you mean?
[08:26] <DanielC> besides freedom, is there any difference?
[08:26] <highvoltage> DanielC: etherboot is backwards compatible with PXE, so it will work
[08:26] <ball> Do I need a special boot rom for edubuntu?
[08:26] <highvoltage> DanielC: pxe just comes on network cards, etherboot you can put on almost any media
[08:26] <DanielC> ok
[08:26] <highvoltage> and on rom-o-matic.net, you can choose lots of options for etherboot.
[08:26] <highvoltage> pxe gives you very few options.
[08:27] <highvoltage> (not that you need the options so much, but it is nice, for when you do)
[08:27] <ogra> highvoltage, with a PXE enabled NIC you dont have to think about anything... just plug it in and boot
[08:27] <ogra> thats what i meant
[08:27] <DanielC> Where do you suggest I get etherboot cards? I don't know how to program a ROM.
[08:27] <ball> I suppose I should use gigabit ethernet if I'm swapping over it :-/
[08:27] <highvoltage> ogra: with a etherboot boot rom inserted, it's the same ;)
[08:27] <ball> hang on though, why would a graphical terminal need to swap anyway?!
[08:27] <Petaris> DanielC: Why do you want etherboot cards?
[08:28] <ogra> yes, but you have to insert a bootrom ;)
[08:28] <highvoltage> ball: on your server, it's a good idea to use gigabit ethernet
[08:28] <highvoltage> ogra: boo-hoo!
[08:28] <DanielC> Petaris: don't I need them for the thin clients?
[08:28] <highvoltage> DanielC: nope
[08:28] <Petaris> DanielC: use pxe based cards
[08:28] <DanielC> uhmm... what can I use instead? (besides floppies)
[08:29] <Petaris> they "just work" tm
[08:29] <DanielC> Ok. Where can I get pxe based cards?
[08:29] <highvoltage> if you have a gigabit switch (on all ports) and a decent gigabit switch, and you can afford it, you will probably get slightly better performance. but 100mbps is fine for thin clients.
[08:29] <Petaris> any where
[08:29] <ogra> (but are proprietary)
[08:29] <DanielC> good
[08:29] <DanielC> And they'll "just work"?
[08:29] <ball> Oh, does edubuntu have built-in WoL support, to wake up the terminals from the server keyboard?
[08:29] <Petaris> dlink makes good cards
[08:30] <Petaris> DanielC: If they are pxe
[08:30] <ogra> ball, thats rather a HW issue and we didnt plan such a feature ....
[08:30] <DanielC> Petaris: ok
[08:30] <Petaris> DanielC: only thing you might run into is adding it to your boot list in the bios
[08:30] <ball> ogra: perhaps for the next version...
[08:30] <ogra> probably
[08:30] <ball> I should be writing this stuff down.
[08:30] <DanielC> Petaris: Thanks. I wouldn't have thought of that...
[08:31] <Petaris> DanielC: I only thought of it because I ran into that problem on a client the other day  ;)
[08:32] <ball> If a terminal is switched off and then switched back on again, does the user get reconnected to their session?
[08:32] <DanielC> :-)
[08:32] <Petaris> ball: no
[08:32] <ogra> ball, it needs to boot again...
[08:32] <ball> ogra: right, but after the terminal's booted...
[08:32] <ball> ?
[08:32] <ogra> how should that work if you shout down the power on the NIC its down...
[08:33] <ogra> you can save your session in gnome, sure
[08:33] <ogra> and go on working where you stopped... but thats no special edubuntu feature
[08:33] <ball> ogra: it works with VNC
[08:33] <Petaris> this isn't vnc
[08:34] <highvoltage> this is xdmcp :)
[08:34] <ogra> nope
[08:34] <highvoltage> more letters, and more efficient.
[08:34] <ogra> this is ssh
[08:34] <highvoltage> ogra: nope?
[08:34] <Petaris> ssh tunnel
[08:34] <ogra> its a simple ssh tunnel
[08:34] <highvoltage> ah, yes. edubuntu works differenlty.
[08:35] <ball> Would 600 MHz be adequate for the terminals?  I'm thinking of EPIA ME6000 fanless mITX boards.
[08:36] <ogra> i think so
[08:36] <ball> They have to be i386 right?
[08:36] <highvoltage> 600mhz is fine.
[08:36] <Petaris> ball: more then enough
[08:36] <ogra> (said the guy who does his tests with a amd64 3200 512MB machine)
[08:36] <highvoltage> hehe
[08:37] <ogra> ball, they have to be the same arch as the server
[08:37] <Petaris> one of my clients is a fanless via 533MHz with 128MB RAM, works great
[08:37] <ogra> ball, you could even do sparc ;)
[08:37] <Petaris> could probably even get away with 64MB
[08:37] <highvoltage> ogra: they do!?
[08:37] <highvoltage> this isn't the same for mainstream ltsp.
[08:38] <highvoltage> ah yes, mdz's ltsp uses the same packages on cd, so it must be same arch.
[08:38] <highvoltage> hmmm..
[08:38] <highvoltage> seriously, edubuntu ltsp != ltsp more than debian != ubuntu.
[08:38] <highvoltage> even though the ltsp guys are fine with it being called ltsp
[08:39] <ball> I'm going to have to invest some money on the server...
[08:40] <ball> ...perhaps I should build an experimental rig to start with though.
[08:40] <Petaris> ball: how many clients?
[08:40] <ball> Petaris: probably three or four to start with.
[08:40] <Petaris> oh
[08:41] <Petaris> you can run that with a fairly small box
[08:41] <Petaris> I'm putting in 25 clients
[08:42] <ball> define "fairly small" ;-)
[08:42] <Petaris> p3 600 or better should do
[08:42] <Petaris> with 512 of ram
[08:42] <ball> ok
[08:43] <Petaris> but that may be different depending on which apps you want to use concurrently
[08:43] <highvoltage> ogra: will there be a way to install an off-line copy of wikipedia with edubuntu?
[08:44] <highvoltage> i mean, a quick and easy way that teachers could follow?
[08:45] <ogra> highvoltage, see #u-d
[08:46] <highvoltage> k
[08:46] <highvoltage> ah
[08:46] <ball> Hmm... I doubt these mainboards come with a boot ROM socket :-/
[08:48] <Petaris> ball: Which country are you in?
[08:48] <ball> ...shame to waste the only PCI slot on a NIC
[08:48] <ball> Petaris: USA
[08:48] <Petaris> ball: http://www.solarpc.com/
[08:48] <Petaris> That is where I get my clients
[08:49] <Petaris> ball: is this for a school?
[08:49] <ball> That rings a bell, I may have looked at those in the past.
[08:49] <ball> No, but it is for use in an educational environment.
[08:50] <Petaris> ahh
[08:50] <Petaris> I'm a k-12 in Wisconsin
[08:50] <Petaris> This is going to be a new elementary lab
[08:50] <ball> Nice.
[08:51] <ball> My wife is a teacher in a middle school.  This is for somewhere else though.  I'm in Illinois btw.
[08:51] <Petaris> ahh
[08:51] <ball> I'm still learning my way around the American education framework
[08:51] <ball> people tell me what grade their in and I ask "how old is that"? :-)
[08:51] <Petaris> ball: best just to get a bulldozer and plow through all the bs
[08:52] <ball> s/their/they're
[08:53] <ball> Petaris: are yours running from 12V DC?
[08:53] <Petaris> there is a powerblock that converts from ac to the dc
[08:54] <Petaris> but they are 12vdc
[08:54] <ball> A wall-wart type thing?
[08:54] <Petaris> I'm not sure you could find them there
[08:54] <Petaris> I got them from SolarPC with the units
[08:55] <Petaris> but it is a standard plug
[08:55] <Petaris> for the 12vdc
[08:56] <Petaris> ball: we got a server, 25 clients, keyboards, monitors, and mice for just under $8,000.00
[08:56] <Petaris> all from SolarPC
[08:56] <Petaris> the monitors are remans, but the rest is new
[08:58] <ball> coaxial DC plug?
[09:00] <Petaris> its a round plug with a hole in the center
[09:00] <ball> I should request a catalogue
[09:00] <ball> Yes, that's the ones.
[09:01] <Petaris> ball: give me a few secounds and I'll shoot up some pics of the powerbrick and clients
[09:02] <ball> Did the clients need boot ROMs?
[09:04] <Petaris> nope
[09:04] <Petaris> they just work
[09:08] <ball> Do they have 100baseTX ports?
[09:08] <ball> ...or 1000baseT?
[09:08] <Petaris> hrm, I think they are 10/100
[09:09] <Petaris> but I have dual 1000 nics on the server
[09:09] <ball> Are your clients diskless graphical terminals?
[09:09] <Petaris> yep
[09:10] <Petaris> just a min, will have pics up
[09:10] <ball> Are they quiet?
[09:10] <ball> ok
[09:10] <Petaris> yeah
[09:12] <highvoltage> Petaris: we set up our labs for about $3400, with 20 clients
[09:12] <Petaris> highvoltage: I went with slightly better hardware then needed
[09:13] <Petaris> I'll explain later
[09:13] <highvoltage> ah, always good to do that, especially on server and switch.
[09:14] <highvoltage> we've used some cheap switches before that didn't work out that well.
[09:14] <ball> Will edubuntu eventually support actual VNC graphical terminals?
[09:15] <ogra> absolutely, the ubuntu desktop we build on actually has full vnc support
[09:16] <ball> So I could use graphical terminals instead of messing with diskless workstations or PC parts?
[09:16] <Petaris> ball: all of mine are graphical
[09:16] <highvoltage> ogra: have you seen xdmcp chooser? will edubuntu have something similar?
[09:16] <Petaris> these boxes are really plug and play
[09:17] <ogra> highvoltage, i dont think that would make much sense with the ssh tunneled ltsp
[09:17] <ball> thinking of something like this... - Andrew Ball
[09:17] <ball> oops :-)
[09:17] <ball> paste doesn't work quite right here ;-)
[09:18] <ball> http://www.hoovercs.com/images/yvnc.gif
[09:18] <ogra> highvoltage, you want to crossconnect between the clients with it ? 
[09:18] <highvoltage> what some schools have done is, 
[09:19] <highvoltage> they've put in a server which is the official server,
[09:19] <highvoltage> and another one which is the "computer club" server, one that they can play with and mess about.
[09:19] <highvoltage> and then on the thin clients, the chooser starts, and the kids can select their server.
[09:19] <ogra> thats not what edubuntu can offer in this stage
[09:20] <ogra> probably with sdm which i still havent seen yet
[09:20] <highvoltage> ok. when my breezy box is ok again i'll play with it.
[09:20] <ogra> yes, try it
[09:21] <ogra> indeed you can install in the chroot what you want, even xdmcp, but edubuntu servers simply dont export X so that xdmcp could connect to it
[09:26] <Petaris> ball: 
[09:26] <Petaris> ball: http://katerina.frederic.k12.wi.us/code/naig/index.php
[09:26] <Petaris> there are the images
[09:26] <Petaris> sorry, they are not the best
[09:28] <Petaris> and the gallery software is experimental, so it could have a few issues
[09:28] <Petaris> The first client shown is the 533MHz
[09:28] <Petaris> the second is the 1GHz
[09:28] <Petaris> the second also has a CF card reader
[09:29] <ball> Do you boot of the CF on the second?
[09:29] <ball> ...or is that just in case?  :-)
[09:29] <Petaris> no, but I could
[09:29] <Petaris> That is for booting a micro win98 enviornment I might need
[09:29] <Petaris> other wise I wouldn't have ordered them
[09:30] <Petaris> *them = CF card readers
[09:30] <ball> Petaris: thanks, the pictures give me a good idea of their size.
[09:31] <Petaris> yeah, think laptop
[09:31] <Petaris> The 1GHz is for if this project bombs
[09:31] <Petaris> I can buy hard drives and stick them in there, bingo computers
[09:31] <ball> heh
[09:31] <Petaris> :)
[09:31] <ball> I've just noticed the time
[09:32] <ball> I have to god 
[09:32] <Petaris> Always have a backup plan
[09:32] <ball> go*
[09:32] <Petaris> bye
[09:32] <ball> Thanks for your help, and your patience chaps (and chapesses ;-)
[09:32] <ogra> bye
[09:33] <Petaris> ogra, highvoltage, you guys might want to check out those pics as well
[09:33] <Petaris> they make a good client
[09:33] <ogra> they look neat...
[09:34] <ogra> especially the one with the chrome knob and cf reader
[09:34] <ogra> but i've seen way smaller clients.... they are quite big...
[09:35] <Petaris> ogra: thats so they can fit a hdd
[09:35] <Petaris> or a full size pci
[09:35] <Petaris> :)
[09:35] <ogra> yup, but if i dont need a HD, a 9x15x2 case is a bit cooler ;)
[09:35] <Petaris> yep
[09:36] <ogra> as big as a 2cm thick postcard
[09:36] <Petaris> oh, thats cm
[09:37] <Petaris> ok, that makes more sence
[09:37] <ogra> germany here ;)
[09:37] <Petaris> I was thinking inches
[09:37] <Petaris> and thinking, thats not that small
[09:37] <Petaris> hehe
[09:38] <ogra> you can use little brackets and attach them under the table with screws...
[09:38] <Petaris> these you can as well
[09:38] <ogra> true
[09:38] <Petaris> in fact, thats how we are mounting them
[09:38] <ogra> heh
[09:43] <DanielC> Help, I'm confused. When I ran 'apt-get install edubuntu-server' I told the DHCP server to run on eth1. Now, I just opened /etc/network/interfaces and it says  "iface eth1 inet dhcp". That can't be right...
[09:44] <DanielC> "iface eth1 inet dhcp"  means that it *obtains* the address from DHCP, right?
[09:44] <DanielC> That should be changed to "iface eth1 inet static address 192.168.0.1"  right?
[09:45] <Petaris> hrm, gftp keeps dying on me
[09:47] !lilo:*! Updating channel guidelines.... please take a look at http://freenode.net/channel_guidelines_draft_1124910402.shtml#sensitivematerial (comments appreciated)
[09:47] <Petaris> hrm, I still get that kernel panic on the first time boot
[09:47] <Petaris> :/
[09:48] <ogra> kernel panic ? 
[09:48] <Petaris> yeah
[09:48] <ogra> ah, you mean the nfst timeout
[09:48] <Petaris> it only happens the first time I try to boot the client
[09:48] <ogra> nfs even
[09:48] <Petaris> yep
[09:48] <Petaris> it comes up as a kernel panic
[09:48] <ogra> thats solved in the recent versions
[09:49] <Petaris> ahh
[09:49] <ogra> when did you upgrade the last time ?
[09:49] <Petaris> not since install
[09:49] <ogra> did you tweak much in the chroot ?
[09:49] <ogra> (in /opt/ltsp... ? )
[09:50] <Petaris> nope
[09:50] <Petaris> not at all 
[09:50] <Petaris> I added an /opt/scripts
[09:50] <ogra> then just run sudo ltsp-build-client again
[09:50] <Petaris> but that is on its own
[09:50] <Petaris> ok
[09:50] <Petaris> will do
[09:50] <ogra> it will get you the latest client environment
[09:51] <ogra> you should als update the server.... there was a new kernel release inbetween
[09:53] <Petaris> update the server how?
[09:54] <Petaris> apt-get update, apt-get updgrade?
[09:54] <Petaris> or do you mean ltsp-server
[09:54] <Petaris> er, edubuntu-server
[09:54] <ogra> nope, a system upgrade 
[09:54] <Petaris> as in the package
[09:54] <Petaris> ok
[09:55] <ogra> so the first one you mentioned
[09:55] <Petaris> yep
[09:55] <Petaris> will do
[09:55] <ogra> good
[09:56] <ogra> a lot bugs are gone....
[09:56] <Petaris> I wish this script ran faster
[09:56] <ogra> the ltsp update ?
[09:56] <Petaris> yeah
[09:57] <ogra> it scans te integrity of all packages first... 
[09:57] <Petaris> ahh
[09:58] <Petaris> Then maybe it should be more verbose, so it looks like it is doing something
[09:58] <ogra> the final version will install from cd thats a lot faster then
[10:14] <highvoltage> ogra: elmo says there's no plone packages for hoary, which the edubuntu server is currently running.
[10:14] <highvoltage> what's the best way about installing plone, should i check on the plone site?
[10:16] <highvoltage> ok. going to bed now. goodnight!
[10:16] <Petaris> night highvoltage