[12:06] <seb128> martinald: what kind of reply do you expect? version? if it's installable?
[12:06] <martinald> is it going to be shipped with breezy?
[12:07] <seb128> yep
[12:07] <martinald> ah k
[12:07] <rtcm> martinald: http://packages.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/o/openoffice.org2/openoffice.org2_1.9.121-1ubuntu11/changelog
[12:08] <martinald> cool. will it be out of beta by the time breezy is released?
[12:08] <seb128> that's probably a question for oo.o2 guys :)
[12:09] <martinald> right, let's say it's not - will updated versions be backported for breezy
[12:10] <ogra> martinald, we only backport security and dataloss fixes.... everything beyond that would be a question to the backports team guys
[12:11] <martinald> hm
[12:11] <ogra> like in debian
[12:11] <martinald> is this policy going to change? I asked a while about it and iirc there was going to be some discussion about it
[12:11] <seb128> we are 2 months before 5.10 and people already want to backport stuff ...
[12:11] <ogra> a stable release is sable...
[12:11] <ogra> stable even
[12:12] <ogra> seb128, yes *sigh*
[12:12] <seb128> martinald: backports are here for people who wants to update to new versions
[12:12] <ogra> martinald, thats why there is a backports team now
[12:12] <martinald> yes, for example let's say it doesn't ship and there is a few critical bugs that are neither security nor dataloss but provide serious pain for a good chunk of users
[12:13] <seb128> we backport fixes
[12:13] <martinald> does that mean users will have to actively go out and install backports?
[12:13] <martinald> as opposed to just clicking on the ubuntu update applet
[12:13] <seb128> no, fixes are backported for such bugs
[12:13] <ogra> martinald, we have a official backports team, no need to "go out"
[12:13] <jcole> how do i trick apt into thinking a dependency exists?
[12:13] <seb128> you don't
[12:14] <martinald> seb128: sure, but let's say there was a problem with the word importer that was neither dataloss nor security but failed on a quite a few documents
[12:14] <ogra> jcole, dependencys are there for a reason
[12:14] <martinald> would you backport the fix for that?
[12:14] <pitti> martinald: not for a stable release
[12:14] <martinald> don't you think that's a huge problem?
[12:14] <pitti> martinald: since the patch for that is probably > 1000 lines
[12:15] <jcole> ogra: ya, but apt doesn't see a virtual package that is installed... so i need to tell apt it is installed (cause it really is)
[12:15] <seb128> martinald: new versions also give new bugs
[12:16] <jcole> i thought it was something like... apt-get install synaptic -o APT::Get::Fake-Provides="libapt-pkg-libc6.3-5-3.9"
[12:17] <martinald> seb: true. but say you ship openoffice 1.9.151 or something, but it has a bug that stops a lot of word documents opening, but it's fixed in openoffice 2.0. surely it would be a better idea to ship that update?
[12:17] <ogra> jcole, rather reinstall the virtual package so that apt sees it
[12:17] <pitti> martinald: if you would allow such updates, what would make a stable release stable?
[12:17] <jcole> ogra: --reinstall ?
[12:18] <ogra> martinald, how do you guarantee that the 90 language packs we ship for it still work, how do you make sure it doesnt break other things ? 
[12:18] <seb128> martinald: this has been discuted again and again, you have to put limits. Everybody clames that the new version of his favorite software fixes some stuff ... but experience shows it brings also new issues
[12:18] <martinald> good point. but surely suggesting users have to wait 6 months to get major bugs fixed is a problem
[12:18] <ogra> martinald, a stable release has recieved months of bugfixing and testing work... why should we break that ?
[12:19] <ogra> martinald, major bugs get fixes
[12:19] <pitti> martinald: that's why we try to fix major bugs *before* the release
[12:19] <martinald> i've just pointed out a bug that wouldn't probably get fixed...
[12:19] <seb128> martinald: you are basically saying "the version from 2 weeks before 2.0 is total crap and they automagically changed that in 2 weeks because they changed the number to 2.0"
[12:19] <martinald> no i'm not
[12:19] <martinald> i'm saying there is likely to be bugfixes in the final release
[12:19] <seb128> martinald: and new bug will not be grabbed
[12:20] <seb128> martinald: you can say that for any new version of a sotfware, it's supposed to fix bugs ... 
[12:20] <martinald> yes but generally new software fixes bugs surely
[12:20] <ogra> martinald, you showed today that you dont like our theme, our color selection and our policy to handle stable releases, may i ask what you like on ubuntu ?
[12:20] <seb128> martinald: you need to run a siftware some time to know it's stable
[12:20] <martinald> that's uncalled for, i was simply debating ogra
[12:20] <ogra> just out of interest ...
[12:21] <rtcm> martinald: if a bug is really annoying to a lot of users it will be spotted and fixed before the release
[12:21] <martinald> what do i like? many things. i love the hardware detection, installer, use of latest gnome etc etc
[12:21] <ogra> martinald, thanks :)
[12:22] <slomo> elmo: please sync bb from debian (aalib and slang2 transition, ftbfs fix for gcc 4.0)
[12:22] <martinald> rtcm: we both know that sometimes bugs that are critical will be unspotted
[12:22] <pitti> martinald: btw, if you do want new versions, breezy is for you :-) But today you told us that it is too unstable
[12:22] <martinald> pitti: there is a bug in colony 3 which means i can't boot it
[12:22] <ogra> martinald, critical bugs recieve fixes, even in stable releases
[12:22] <martinald> that's why i'm trying the nightly cd
[12:22] <pitti> martinald: that's exactly what would happen if we put new versions into stable releases
[12:23] <martinald> surely a new openoffice bug wouldn't break booting?
[12:23] <seb128> martinald: no but it could crash by example
[12:23] <pitti> martinald: it pulls in new dependencies, and so on, so it might break your desktop, which is equally bad
[12:23] <seb128> martinald: some new stable firefox broke extensions by example
[12:23] <ogra> martinald, but who guarantees that it doesnt break all docs out there for example, because the fix breaks doc handling ...
[12:24] <pitti> seb128: meh
[12:24] <pitti> martinald: right, ffox is a nice example
[12:24] <martinald> the problem is that on windows or mac you could get a binary and install it if you wanted it fixed, but you can't do that on linux
[12:24] <pitti> martinald: we *did* put a new upstream version into stable, and it caused lots of trouble
[12:24] <martinald> pitti: true
[12:24] <ogra> martinald, you can, thats why we hae a backports team...
[12:25] <martinald> ogra: ok, but does the backports team backport every new release of main software?
[12:25] <pitti> martinald: epiphany broke, some extensions broke, some packages were rendered ftbfs, enigmail broke after tbird upgrade, etc.
[12:25] <ogra> but that doesnt guarantee the stability we can guarantee after months of work
[12:25] <pitti> martinald: once you start, you are in a mess
[12:25] <seb128> martinald: if you want every new version don't use stable
[12:25] <ogra> martinald, the team backports waht gets requested by users
[12:25] <seb128> pitti: epiphany/warty is still b0rked (now than you speak about that)
[12:26] <michele> martinald: well, you can grab binaries from OOo's website and install those
[12:26] <pitti> seb128: yes, just thought about that
[12:26] <ogra> martinald, but it cant track   sideeffects and doesnt test as intensive as we do it
[12:26] <michele> martinald: so you can have the latest version, as you do on mac and win
[12:26] <martinald> what i mean is that say i have a buisness customer is using xyz package which has a bug in hoary which is uncommon but for him means that ubuntu is unusable
[12:26] <martinald> but the bug is not common enough for it to be backported
[12:26] <martinald> what does he do?
[12:26] <pitti> martinald: then a specific backport is what he needs
[12:27] <seb128> martinald: if you sell service you can backport fixes for issues reported by users
[12:27] <pitti> martinald: major software like gaim, ffox, etc. is usually backported
[12:27] <martinald> seb: ok, ignore customer, replace it with 'friend'
[12:27] <dredg> a small script running ethtool suits my purposes for now
[12:27] <pitti> martinald: do a backport yourself or ask for one :-)
[12:28] <martinald> i can't backport myself. and there isn't any demand from the community to do it (being a very uncommon bug)
[12:28] <dredg> but between now and the kickoff for breezy+1 i think i'll be trying to come up with a single standard way of testing for a network link
[12:28] <martinald> on mac/windows i could say 'ok, just go to www.project.net and install the latest version over the top'
[12:28] <ogra> martinald, if you ask the backports team, it will do the backport fo you
[12:28] <pitti> martinald: you can do the same with Ubuntu
[12:28] <ogra> thats what its there for
[12:29] <michele> or you can always hire somebody to do the backport...
[12:29] <martinald> fine, say it's a charity then
[12:29] <michele> well... is network-manager in universe or main?
[12:29] <pitti> and what ogra said, that's what I meant with "<pitti> martinald: do a backport yourself or ask for one :-)"
[12:29] <Mez> what you want backporteD
[12:29] <seb128> martinald: what do you do on IE when outlook has a bug not fixed by MS ?
[12:29] <pitti> Mez: TEH WORLD
[12:29] <pitti> Mez: nevermind, just theory :-)
[12:29] <martinald> seb: that's different.
[12:29] <ogra> Mez, nothing yet, but martinald will ask you for openoffice as soon as breezy is released ;)
[12:29] <pitti> martinald: but you see, the backport guys are listening :-)
[12:30] <Mez> martinald, email me - martin@sourceguru.net or ubuntu-backports@lists.ubuntu.com regarding backports stuff
[12:30] <Mez> ogra: lol
[12:30] <seb128> martinald: how so?
[12:30] <seb128> martinald: there is some case you have bugs and that's all
[12:30] <martinald> because in my scenario there is a fix availiable but due to the OS i'm running it's not available. in that situation there is no fix available regardless of OS
[12:30] <seb128> martinald: you can't fix every single minor bug happening for anyone
[12:31] <ogra> martinald, but we just prove that it *is* available... Mez will backport what you ask for
[12:31] <pitti> "ask your local backports dealer"
[12:31] <pitti> hehe :-)
[12:31] <ogra> martinald, the app just wont be as heavily tested as the one in the release
[12:32] <seb128> martinald: use unstable so
[12:32] <ogra> :)
[12:32] <martinald> ogra: ok. but what happens if mez for whatever reason can't or won't backport
[12:32] <seb128> martinald: so you have every new version, good way to learn that they don't only fix bugs
[12:33] <rtcm> martinald: ask/pay another person to do it for you
[12:33] <ogra> martinald, if he won't just poke him even more or send him some rowdys :)
[12:33] <pitti> seb128: and that's GOOD
[12:33] <seb128> ;)
[12:33] <pitti> seb128: imagine what happened if, say, from warty on all upstreams only fixed bugs
[12:33] <pitti> seb128: breezy would be bug free, boring, and we would be jobless
[12:33] <seb128> yeah
[12:33] <ogra> martinald, if he cant, he has the whole distro team to ask for help
[12:34] <seb128> pitti: why do you think I break the panel? Want to keep my job :p
[12:34] <ogra> hah, i *knew* its intended
[12:34] <martinald> well maybe you have me convinced that backports is a good idea
[12:34] <ogra> *g*
[12:34] <martinald> and that i'm fretting over nothing :)
[12:34] <martinald> i assume backports are not turned on by default?
[12:35] <seb128> nop
[12:35] <martinald> how hard is it to add backports?
[12:35] <martinald> for the average user
[12:35] <ogra> martinald, but for your customer, it will be you who has the risk for newly introduced bugs...
[12:35] <seb128> add 1 lines to the sources
[12:35] <seb128> 1 line
[12:35] <seb128> and click on synaptic update
[12:35] <martinald> ok that's too complex for most users
[12:36] <seb128> (people are never happy)
[12:36] <ogra> clicking two times ? is to hard for an admin in a company at your customer ?
[12:36] <martinald> i'm not saying for me ogra, i'm saying for mrs joe smith who has a problem with openoffice and would like the fix that is waiting in backports
[12:36] <martinald> mr*
[12:36] <rtcm> martinald: is it easier to go after some random installer on the net and clicking through an installer wizard?
[12:37] <martinald> rtcm, yes
[12:37] <seb128> martinald: synaptic is not harded than a website
[12:37] <seb128> I don't agree
[12:37] <mvo> martinald: if it's too complex to add backports, then it's maybe too complex/worrying to actually install/use backports?
[12:37] <mvo> I mean, backports do not have the same level of QA as the rest of the archive
[12:38] <seb128> martinald: upgrading software to new versions on a stable system is not a good idea that's why it doesn't work out of the box
[12:38] <martinald> well i was thinking there should be a checkbox in the update-manager saying 'Would you like Ubuntu to search for updates which don't impede security or dataloss'?
[12:38] <martinald> or something
[12:38] <mvo> IMHO you can't have dead-easy and cuting-edge
[12:39] <seb128> martinald: you want to push people to unstability and new bug, feel free but don't expect the distro to do that for you
[12:39] <martinald> well this is the problem
[12:39] <seb128> use unstable if you want that
[12:39] <martinald> if you don't solve this then there will be a large amount of users who don't understand computers very well but have broken software
[12:39] <martinald> and they go to the software site and they are told there is an update available
[12:39] <martinald> but they don't know how to get it
[12:40] <seb128> they don't bring new bugs and keep the stable tested version
[12:40] <seb128> that's good :)
[12:40] <pitti> martinald: btw, you can enable backports in synaptic (or at least it would be easy to allow that)
[12:41] <jdub> GOOD MORNING FREEDOM LOVERS!
[12:41] <martinald> pitti: synaptic is still too complex for most regular users to use
[12:41] <seb128> HEY HEY HEY jdub
[12:41] <pitti> Hey jdub 
[12:41] <ajmitch> mornign jdub 
[12:41] <seb128> martinald: these users just use the stable version and the security updates
[12:41] <pitti> martinald: ok, but for these users it is also too dangerous to confront them with backports in the first place
[12:41] <pitti> seb128: right
[12:41] <martinald> pitti but on windows/mac users do this all the time
[12:42] <martinald> with very little trouble
[12:42] <martinald> why should it be different on linux?
[12:42] <seb128> and they complain all the time about stuff not working right
[12:42] <pitti> martinald: no, they don't
[12:42] <seb128> I don't agree with the very little trouble
[12:42] <seb128> they get bugs, they complain, etc
[12:42] <martinald> i think you'll find they do
[12:42] <pitti> martinald: in fact many of them don't ever install *any* software
[12:42] <martinald> pitti: that isn't true either
[12:42] <ogra_> martinald, most win users i know still run win98
[12:42] <pitti> martinald: my mother, the folks in my father's company, etc. - they don't touch anything
[12:43] <seb128> martinald: you are speaking about people going on the web to get new software, these people are able to click on 2 synaptic options
[12:43] <martinald> ok fair enough but you are not looking at the bigger picture
[12:43] <pitti> martinald: many people aren't version junkies - they use what they have and get used to bugs and itches
[12:43] <ogra_> martinald, with the SW they had on it in the first place
[12:43] <martinald> the fact is the majority of windows users use XP
[12:43] <martinald> which is very stable
[12:43] <dredg> it's true. for the majority of users who do X number of tasks, provided that nothing breaks they will never change the software
[12:43] <ogra_> i doubt that
[12:43] <pitti> no, in companies etc. many folks still use 2K or even 98
[12:43] <martinald> pitti: look at the statistics
[12:44] <martinald> well over 60% of windows machines are XP
[12:44] <seb128> martinald: 40% is a good part
[12:44] <martinald> and all new computers are sold with xp now, or 95%
[12:44] <ogra_> martinald, in my last company XP was a no go, they still use 2k all over the place and that wnt change the next years
[12:44] <pitti> martinald: and how many corporate XP users will ever touch the software?
[12:44] <pitti> martinald: most of them can't even
[12:44] <martinald> corporate is not the same
[12:44] <pitti> also private ones
[12:44] <pitti> my whole family never touches their boxes
[12:45] <pitti> why should they?
[12:45] <martinald> well 80m+ users have installed firefox
[12:45] <pitti> martinald: my gf had used Debian in a pre-woody version for 3 years without touching anything
[12:46] <martinald> fair enough pitti you can throw all this anecdoatal evidence at me but i am telling you the raw statistics
[12:46] <seb128> martinald: your statistics
[12:46] <ogra_> martinald, which statistics ? 
[12:46] <Burgundavia> martinald, 80 downloads and anyway, they installed FF because the builtin browser is crap
[12:46] <ogra_> have links ?
[12:46] <pitti> martinald: most version and install junkies are young home users
[12:46] <martinald> www.spreadfirefox.com
[12:46] <pitti> martinald: which know a bit about computers
[12:47] <ogra_> martinald, about 95% of users using XP
[12:47] <pitti> martinald: whoever is able to download new windows software and find/install cracks for it certainly knows how to enable backports for Ubuntu
[12:47] <martinald> i said 95% of new computers are sold with XP
[12:47] <ogra_> not the firefox promotion page, and please no microsofty study
[12:47] <pitti> right
[12:47] <martinald> that's a guess
[12:47] <rtcm> martinald: hear pitti, he's reaching the point now
[12:47] <pitti> martinald: that's true, but doesn't change our claim
[12:47] <ogra_> martinald, so why do you say its based on statistics ?
[12:48] <ogra_> if its a guess
[12:48] <ogra_> hihi
[12:48] <martinald> do you honestly think that less than 95% of new computers sold with windows are not sold with XP?
[12:48] <pitti> martinald: I don't doubt that
[12:48] <ogra_> martinald, you said most users *use* XP
[12:48] <martinald> and i will provide statistics
[12:48] <martinald> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
[12:48] <ogra_> and that i doubt very much
[12:48] <martinald> bit biased that one
[12:49] <pitti> martinald: but most of its users won't fiddle with their configs, also not in XP
[12:49] <ogra_> give me a real statistic, including all continents
[12:49] <pitti> ogra_: even if they did, it doesn't change our target user for stable releases
[12:49] <pitti> whether the stable version is called hoary, 2K or XP is irrelevant
[12:49] <pitti> many people just stay with what they have
[12:50] <seb128> martinald: by beeing a new version addict you get bugs for sure
[12:50] <ogra_> pitti, nope, and its hilarious offtopic for this channel anyway, lets stop it *now*
[12:50] <pitti> (apart from computer freaks, of course)
[12:50] <pitti> ogra_: ok, rikght :-)
[12:50] <ogra_> ;)
[12:51] <martinald> http://wesnerm.blogs.com/net_undocumented/2005/07/windows_markets.html
[12:51] <martinald> which says xp is at ~40%
[12:51] <martinald> so i was slightly wrong
[12:52] <martinald> but it shows that only 5% of users use 95 and 98
[12:52] <martinald> perhaps someone can clear this up for me: what is the target audience of ubuntu?
[12:52] <pitti> that means 60% of users use software > 5 years old
[12:53] <martinald> use an OS > 5 years old
[12:53] <pitti> right
[12:53] <martinald> many will stick with windows 2000 precisely because it lets them run all their new software
[12:53] <martinald> if software forced them to upgrade to XP they would
[12:53] <pitti> but that will be similar for Office etc.
[12:53] <martinald> well i don't know
[12:53] <martinald> i shall see :)
[12:53] <rtcm> martinald: sane people I believe :-)
[12:54] <martinald> i can't find any stats on office marketshare
[12:55] <ogra_> mvo__, and i thought my line was crappy today...
[12:55] <pitti> good idea
[12:55] <ogra_> night all
[12:55] <pitti> good night everynody
[12:55] <martinald> ok night guys
[12:55] <mvo__> ogra_: usually it's not _that_ bad. but tonight ... oh well
[12:56] <ogra_> mvo__, they changed the dslam two days ago here... i drop once an hour since...
[12:56] <ogra_> mvo__, night :)
[12:56] <jdub> it was just pointed out to me that our kernel is built with 3.4, but our default compiler is 4.0
[12:56] <ogra_> jdub, yes
[12:56] <jdub> we don't really have a nice way of getting, say, "kernel-build-essential" ;)
[12:56] <jdub> that'll be a gotcha for some users
[12:56] <ogra_> jdub, poke fabbione 
[12:57] <mvo__> night ogra_ (and everyone)
[01:16] <Burgundavia> jdub, should we put a seperator between the categories and g-a-i on the applications menu? It looks quite quished
[01:16] <jdub> the separator was intended - if it's not there, please file a bug
[01:16] <wasabi_> Hmm. So me and my boss (long time UI designer) just sat down in front of OS X and argued about UI design.
[01:17] <wasabi_> It has occured to me that listing Home Directory in the Places menu is not helpful.
[01:17] <wasabi_> OS X does it too. ;)
[01:18] <Burgundavia> jdub, is that -menus or g-a-i?
[01:20] <luis> wasabi: you have to have *some* way to get to home, so... where else are you going to put it? :/
[01:21] <wasabi_> Why?
[01:21] <wasabi_> What do you need to use your home directory for?
[01:21] <wasabi_> Yeah this argument sucks.
[01:22] <wasabi_> Okay, my reason for bringing this up is because my boss expressed confusion at there being two differnet ways to get to Documents
[01:22] <wasabi_> And he wasn't sure what the difference between the folders were.
[01:22] <wasabi_> Weither one was for everybody, or one was for just himself.
[01:22] <HrdwrBoB> home directory should be desktop
[01:23] <HrdwrBoB> that solves that problem
[01:23] <HrdwrBoB> but makes a lot of people whinge
[01:23] <spacey> my desktop would be too cluttered
[01:23] <HrdwrBoB> spacey: that's not an inherent problem with it
[01:23] <mdz_> wasabi_: I'm pretty sure this has been done to death upstream in gnome, and this was the only way for the desktop and unix to meet in the middle ;-)
[01:24] <HrdwrBoB> that's a problem with how you manage files
[01:24] <wasabi_> yeah
[01:24] <wasabi_> heh
[01:24] <spacey> HrdwrBoB, i know your right :D
[01:24] <wasabi_> I just enjoy the UI paradigm arguments usually.
[01:24] <mdz_> wasabi_: did you find any low-hanging fruit in OS X that we could borrow for ubuntu?
[01:25] <mdz_> the last time I looked at it, it seemed like the major differences between it and gnome fell under the category of "bling"
[01:25] <Burgundavia> mdz, pop-ups for fn keys
[01:25] <HrdwrBoB> since I've changed home to be desktop, I use nautilus a lot more, since I can actually get to all my files in a sensible logical way from all access methods
[01:25] <wasabi_> Well, one of the next complains was about what happens with unknown file systems. OS X fails this. You download a .sit file.
[01:25] <wasabi_> And try to open it.
[01:25] <wasabi_> And a new user is going to be confronted with a list of possible programs to open it with.
[01:25] <mdz_> Burgundavia: how does that work?
[01:25] <wasabi_> And most of them are going to be useless.
[01:26] <HrdwrBoB> is the default for images now gthumb?
[01:26] <Burgundavia> mdz, when you hit a fn key (brightness or sound), it pops something up showing the change
[01:26] <wasabi_> And it will be set to open by default, by default.
[01:26] <HrdwrBoB> because the default image viewer is completely useless
[01:26] <Burgundavia> mdz, we already have a mute one
[01:26] <mdz_> Burgundavia: we only recently got the keys working at all ;-)
[01:26] <mdz_> on laptops anyway
[01:26] <wasabi_> We don't allow unknown file types to be open at all on a double click.
[01:26] <wasabi_> just noticed that
[01:26] <Burgundavia> mdz_, hey, I shot for the moon. LEO is not far enough
[01:26] <wasabi_> Our error message just sucks.
[01:27] <Burgundavia> wasabi, the huge one?
[01:27] <wasabi_> Can't Display Location \ Couldn't display "/home/jhaltom/ssl/ISIdatapro.key".
[01:27] <wasabi_> No, that one sucks too, btw
[01:27] <Burgundavia> mdz_, have you seen our mute key pop-up
[01:28] <mdz_> no
[01:28] <mdz_> I don't have a mute key
[01:28] <Burgundavia> ah
[01:29] <tseng> Burgundavia: i "designed" that mute key popup
[01:29] <Burgundavia> tseng, it is quite nice, one minor bug
[01:29] <tseng> Burgundavia: it sucked worse before, i filed a bug on several inconsistancies
[01:29] <tseng> i think it was hadess fixed it up
[01:29] <Burgundavia> tseng, https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14062
[01:30] <jdub> Burgundavia: panel
[01:30] <tseng> why did you report it there, out of curiosity
[01:30] <Burgundavia> jdub, I will change it then
[01:30] <Burgundavia> tseng, I have never seen it, though it was something mjg59 did
[01:30] <tseng> Burgundavia: no, that was part of the old bug
[01:30] <Burgundavia> ok
[01:30] <tseng> what would happen was, it set the volume to zero
[01:30] <Burgundavia> tseng, got a bug # for me?
[01:30] <tseng> as "mute"
[01:30] <Burgundavia> ah
[01:31] <tseng> now it really mutes it and saves the stat
[01:31] <tseng> e
[01:31] <HrdwrBoB> I have a better idea
[01:31] <tseng> i guess you want to go one step further and *look* like mute = 0 volume
[01:31] <HrdwrBoB> it should show you the level, but grey it out
[01:31] <HrdwrBoB> becaute mute != 0 volume
[01:31] <Nafallo> mdz: hi! is it a possibility that some apps could have built earlier on amd64 than i386 and then still have got libcairo1 depends (timer-applet for instance)?
[01:31] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, yes it does
[01:31] <tseng> HrdwrBoB: right.
[01:31] <Burgundavia> from a user perspective it is
[01:32] <mdz_> Nafallo: it's fairly unlikely; the usual method is to wait for the package to be built on all 3 architectures and then do the transition
[01:32] <HrdwrBoB> as a user, I also want to know what the volume is though
[01:32] <mdz_> Nafallo: if there is a specific case you're referring to, please name it
[01:32] <Nafallo> mdz: I did, timer-applet on amd64 depends on libcairo1 here.
[01:32] <mdz_> there may still be packages in universe which haven't transitioned yet
[01:32] <tseng> Burgundavia: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140937
[01:33] <Nafallo> it was rebuilt as ubuntu2, but on amd64 that depends on libcairo1 it seems.
[01:33] <wasabi_> Ok I have low hanging fruit, mdz.
[01:33] <mdz_> Nafallo: that's because -0ubuntu2 hasn't built on amd64 yet
[01:34] <wasabi_> OS X has the dock bar. One of the things that makes it way better than any window list is you know that when you put an icon on it, it stays where you left it. If you put it way to the left, it stays there. And it lets you quickly open your programs.
[01:34] <Burgundavia> tseng, where both the bug reported and your bug fixed?
[01:34] <wasabi_> It's annoying using a windows list where the order of the icons is based on the order you open the programs.
[01:34] <Nafallo> mdz: aha. that was to easy to figure out for me I guess ;-)
[01:34] <tseng> Burgundavia: yes
[01:34] <Nafallo> mdz: thanx :-)
[01:34] <Burgundavia> tseng, ok
[01:34] <wasabi_> Possible solution: Let users drag window list buttons to different positions.
[01:34] <wasabi_> And remember them. Somehow.
[01:35] <Burgundavia> tseng, mine is actually about the visual state, not about what it actually does
[01:35] <tseng> Burgundavia: it makes alot more sense to file your bug @ gnome than ubuntu to me
[01:35] <mdz_> Nafallo: in fact it failed to build on amd64 and powerpc both
[01:35] <mdz_> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/t/timer-applet/1.1-0ubuntu2/
[01:35] <Burgundavia> tseng, I would have, but I didn't realize that it was a non-ubuntu specific thing
[01:35] <tseng> Burgundavia: ok.
[01:35] <wasabi_> Probably just store something like "this app should be at position 4" and do a best effort to fulfill that.
[01:36] <wasabi_> or maybe "this app should be to the left of this other app and to the right of this one".
[01:36] <Burgundavia> tseng, so the control-center actually provides the pop-up?
[01:36] <tseng> Burgundavia: yes
[01:36] <mdz_> yay, amd64 livefs build is working again
[01:36] <tseng> or it did however many releases ago i filed that bug
[01:37] <tseng> Nafallo: i smell i told you it was ftbfs :P
[01:37] <Nafallo> tseng: did you? :-)
[01:37] <tseng> something like that, yes.
[01:38] <tseng> but im starving, better go
[01:39] <Nafallo> I'm not sure I would want to call that ftbfs :-P
[02:23] <tseng> anyone notice metacity crashing all over the place?
[02:23] <dredg> anything in .xsession-errors?
[02:24] <tseng> not about that
[02:26] <dredg> i'm afraid that i've no idea
[03:18] <jdub> mozilla-openoffice.org -> tell me this is not a plugin for viewing OOo documents in the web browser...
[03:18] <jdub> the description hints at that, but doesn't really confirm the suspicion
[03:30] <wasabi> Eh. That plugin sounds sucky.
[03:30] <wasabi> I am really getting PISSED at the totem plugin.
[03:30] <wasabi> Why does everything have to open in the damned browser?
[03:30] <HrdwrBoB> win 26
[03:30] <schweeb> fabbione: awake?
[03:30] <HrdwrBoB> argh
[03:30] <wasabi> If I click on a file, I just want that file to open, in all it's glory!
[03:31] <schweeb> wasabi: rm it
[03:31] <wasabi> I do. I just recently diverted it. ;0
[03:31] <wasabi> But then I can't view REAL embedded media.
[03:31] <wasabi> Stuff that is supposed to be embedded.
[03:32] <jdub> i like the totem plugin used only when it's embedded
[03:32] <wasabi> Yeah. That should definatly be the way it's done.
[03:32] <jdub> i wonder if we can fix that
[03:32] <wasabi> Hmm. I don't see why not. Surely the browser knows.
[03:33] <jdub> it's going to be some whackass mime thing
[03:33] <wasabi> Yeah.
[03:33] <jdub> and a bad interaction with mozilla
[03:33] <jdub> should bug seb about it
[03:35] <jdub> yo Gman 
[03:35] <mjg59> SUN SPY
[03:35] <Gman> http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/horror-run-of-august-crashes/2005/08/24/1124562897210.html
[03:35] <Gman> scarey!
[03:35] <Gman> mjg59, i'm trying to steal your love.
[03:36] <mjg59> Gman: Statistics in action
[03:36] <mjg59> Oh man
[03:36] <mjg59> If you steal my love, I'll have no love left for laptops!
[03:36] <Gman> that's probably a good thing
[03:36] <luis> mjg59: but plenty of hate and bile still, right?
[03:37] <mjg59> luis: SO MUCH HATE
[03:37] <mjg59> Gman: If people ask nicely enough, I'll stick all my patches somewhere useful. Despite them being gross hacks.
[03:37] <T5-Steboyuk> hi guys
[03:37] <T5-Steboyuk> do you know why i can't boot off a scsi disk in breezy?
[03:37] <Gman> mjg59, patches for laptops?
[03:38] <T5-Steboyuk> i asked in #ubuntu but no-one seems to know
[03:38] <mjg59> Gman: Yeah
[03:38] <Gman> that is, well, arse.
[03:38] <ajmitch> afternoon
[03:38] <mjg59> Gman: Of course, you can't steal them. That would be GPL infringement.
[03:38] <wasabi> That's the goal of bazaar. ;)
[03:39] <Gman> yeah, we've had the whole cddl/gpl thread on opensolaris-discuss with rms involved
[03:39] <mjg59> Oh man
[03:40] <ajmitch> that would have been fun
[03:40] <mjg59> Gman: Your easiest solution is going to be to run Opensolaris under Xen with a Linux domain 0 kernel
[03:40] <mjg59> That way shit will work
[03:40] <mjg59> Still leaves you with problems when you want to ship gcc, though
[03:41] <Gman> oh come now, 3rd party isvs will flock to opensolaris because they can develop proprietary binary drivers :)
[03:41] <mjg59> Haha
[03:41] <mjg59> Shame they'll need to buy a compiler
[03:42] <mjg59> (I exagerate for comic effect)
[03:42] <Gman> our compiler is free!
[03:42] <mjg59> Though I /am/ curious as to how you're supposed to ship a compiler with OpenSolaris
[03:42] <Gman> although you're right, there is somewhat unobvious agreements with the compiler stuff
[03:44] <Gman> sod the free-ness of it all :)
[03:44] <mjg59> Or, indeed, bash
[03:44] <mjg59> What with the C library not being GPL compatible, and all
[03:45] <elmo> eh, system library exception surely?
[03:45] <HrdwrBoB> 'open'solaris
[03:45] <elmo> tho this is kind of off-topic
[03:45] <jdub> everything is a system library :)
[03:46] <mjg59> elmo: Debian doesn't seem to believe that's possible if stuff is coming from the same directory of the same ftp server...
[03:46] <elmo> the C library slightly more than most :-P
[03:46] <elmo> mjg59: Debian or debian-legal? ...
[03:46] <mjg59> elmo: Heh. I was under the impression that that was why we didn't ship KDE?
[03:46] <mjg59> Back in the old days, that is
[03:47] <elmo> eh, wasn't that QPL vs GPL?
[03:47] <elmo> if so, not sure how you get to QT as a system lib
[03:47] <mjg59> Yeah, but we could have used the system library exemption
[03:48] <mjg59> By prompting QT to base
[03:48] <jdub> ha ha
[03:48] <mjg59> (Which would have been stupid, but still)
[03:48] <elmo> or we could not ship KDE and have Trolltech dual-license QT under the GPL :-P
[03:49] <mjg59> Indeed
[03:49] <mjg59> So Linux distributions should refuse to ship Opensolaris until Sun dual-licenses it under the GPL.
[03:49] <mjg59> Uhm.
[03:49] <Gman> :)
[03:50] <mjg59> Well, it /does/ provide problems when it comes to something like Debian/OpenSolairs
[03:50] <mjg59> Please pretend I can type. I'm /very/ drunk.
[03:50] <elmo> shocking
[03:50] <jdub> I AM SO SURPRISED!
[03:52] <mjg59> You wouldn't believe how many hours of my life I've spent on laptop love in the past few days
[03:52] <mjg59> I think I deserve a drink. Or two. Or twenty.
[03:53] <jdub> mjg59: any ideas on that weird laptop-mode interaction bug?
[03:53] <mjg59> Hard drives are fucked. Or something.
[03:54] <mjg59> It's *never* happened to me. On anything.
[03:54] <mjg59> So it's quite difficult to track down...
[03:56] <mjg59> Wah. Today I will try to make g-p-m work, and will then tidy up autoconfig of tablet PCs
[03:57] <mjg59> And then deal with the HUGE pile of bugs that have been assigned to me
[03:57] <elmo> did bdale ever submit those damn patches for the TC1100?
[03:57] <mjg59> Did bdale have any?
[03:57] <elmo> and/or did you/someone get one as part of LAPTOP-MADNESS?
[03:57] <elmo> he said he had three
[03:57] <mjg59> I've just implemented half of his kernel patches as 5 lines of shell
[03:57] <elmo> but had been scared by bugzilla as a small child and avoided it since
[03:57] <elmo> ok
[03:57] <mjg59> The other one is awkward
[03:57] <mjg59> The third is upstream
[03:58] <elmo> what's the last two?
[03:58] <mjg59> 1) Random broken shit that's been fixed in Breezy
[03:58] <mjg59> 2) Enable/disable wireless
[03:58] <mjg59> (2) is surprisingly awkward
[03:59] <elmo> oh?
[03:59] <mjg59> I've got a TC1105, which is a cheaper TC1100
[04:00] <mjg59> With the exception of wireless stuff, pretty much everything ought to work in Breezy
[04:00] <elmo> (I discovered the lover of hardware wifi-cut off with this temporary i386 laptop.. how INTUITIVE)
[04:00] <mjg59> Think yourself lucky that you don't have an amd64 laptop
[04:00] <mjg59> With luck, we'll sort that stuff out before Breezy
[04:01] <elmo> dude, znarl DOES have one and I'd kind of like him to have a working laptop :p
[04:02] <mjg59> elmo: Seriously, half of the misery is HP BIOS bugs
[04:02] <mjg59> I'm in touch with them, but haven't got far yet
[04:02] <mjg59> The rest can be dealt with. Probably.
[04:02] <elmo> are non-big-four laptop's BIOS likely to be better or worse?
[04:02] <elmo> e.g. fujitsu or samsung
[04:02] <mjg59> But the BIOS throttles the CPU to 13% of full speed when the temperature gets above 16 degrees
[04:02] <mjg59> In general, worse
[04:03] <mjg59> When it comes to amd64, christ knows. Everyone seems to see "amd64" and think "OH MY GOD HOW MUCH CRACK CAN WE SHOVE IN HERE"
[04:04] <jdub> BIOS are bad
[04:04] <mjg59> Anyway. Sleep now.
[04:04] <mjg59> See you funsters in the morning
[04:05] <elmo> heh, night mjg59
[04:05] <jdub> sleep well, enebriated one
[05:15] <lamont> I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.2/docbookx.dtd
[05:15] <lamont> what was the fix to that again?
[05:16] <elmo> point the file at a local copy
[05:16] <elmo> of the DTD
[06:52] <daniels> mdz_: please also set DEBUG_XORG_DEBCONF=user around the dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg call in casper
[06:53] <mdz_> I thought DEBUG_XORG_PACKAGE implied DEBUG_XORG_DEBCONF
[06:55] <daniels> mdz_: nope
[06:55] <daniels> mdz_: i think I'm just going to make them imply each other and be done with it
[06:56] <mdz_> sounds fine to me
[07:08] <infinity> mdz_ : Do I need to fill out a MainInclusionReport to get linux32 seeded?
[07:09] <infinity> mdz_ : It's a bit of a necessity for foolproof package building on powerpc64/sparc64/hppa64 systems.  (The buildds are running in linux32 environments as of today, since elmo gave me shiny new ppc64 kernels)
[07:09] <mdz_> infinity: is it completely trivial?
[07:09] <fabbione> morning
[07:10] <infinity> mdz_ : Very.  It just sets the kernel personality, which has very little effect except altering the output of uname -m
[07:10] <mdz_> infinity: it's like one 2k binary or something, right?
[07:11] <infinity> 4k, but yes.
[07:11] <mdz_> I think we can sneak it in...but if it turns out to have some completely crackful packaging bug or something, we'll be coming after you
[07:11] <jdub> with sticks
[07:11] <infinity> Big ones?
[07:11] <infinity> Yay.
[07:11] <jdub> dipped in banana yoghurt!
[07:11] <mdz_> pointed sticks
[07:11] <daniels> just deprive him of hot dog sausages.  he won't be able to live.
[07:11] <mdz_> and fresh fruit
[07:12] <infinity> Let's see, it has zero bugs, and is so ridiculously flawless that is hasn't been update/uploaded since December 2004.
[07:12] <infinity> I think it's safe. :)
[07:12] <daniels> deprive him of fresh fruit, or other?
[07:12] <daniels> because no-one wants scurvy.
[07:12] <daniels> (incidentally, I sort-of-know two people who got it, but I digress.)
[07:13] <jdub> yeah, uni students eating dogfood tend to get scuvy
[07:13] <infinity> mdz_ : I'll seed it to supported right now, then.  Feel free to sharpen a stick in preparation.
[07:14] <infinity> mdz_ : I just don't feel comfy about running anything (even something this trivial) on the buildds that we don't support.
[07:14] <fabbione> infinity: sooooo... you like ppc64 on the buildd's.. don't you?
[07:14] <infinity> fabbione : I'm liking it so far.
[07:15] <wasabi> I need a little bit of basic C help. I'm working in pmount. I added a new function, do_setup_loop(char * device, char * loop_device). It runs if pmount is trying to mount a file, and creates a loop back device for it before continuing.
[07:15] <daniels> jdub: in this case it was fish and chips for about six months on end, but yeah.
[07:15] <fabbione> infinity: stock kernel or custom?
[07:15] <infinity> fabbione : About to do a mass give-back to see which mysterious failures spontaneously go away.
[07:15] <wasabi> Error: unable to create loopback device: Value too large for defined data type
[07:15] <wasabi> perror( _("Error: unable to create loopback device") );
[07:15] <wasabi> I'm guessing perror looks up the message from some global number?
[07:15] <fabbione> infinity: ehehhe plenty..
[07:15] <infinity> fabbione : Definitely a custom config, you'd have to ask elmo if it's from your stock sources.
[07:15] <fabbione> infinity: yes i am sure it's from the stock source...
[07:16] <fabbione> infinity: but custom config.. that's what we usually do/he usually does
[07:18] <wasabi> oh well im going to bed will try again tomorrow
[07:19] <infinity> fabbione : I think the plan is to run a truely stock kernel on at least one buildd of each arch, to stress test them.  But don't quote me on that.
[07:19] <fabbione> infinity: yeah.. don't worry.. :) i am not going to crossburn you if we don't
[07:21] <fabbione> mdz_: what's the situation with the CD's?
[07:21] <fabbione> did they get fixed?
[07:22] <mdz_> fabbione: they are built
[07:22] <mdz_> but I cannot test them right now
[07:22] <mdz_> I would very much appreciate if you guys would test them
[07:23] <fabbione> mdz_: yup.. ok.. rsyncing now
[07:25] <`anthony> wooo google talk goes live.
[07:25] <luis__> that is so two hours ago. ;)
[07:26] <`anthony> luis__: Yeah, but it's still cool. Pity they've gone live without documenting their xmpp based calling protocol :-(
[07:27] <luis__> yeah, indeed.
[07:27] <`anthony> can I be bothered right now to reverse engineer it, or do I wait for them to document it...
[07:33] <\sh> morning
[07:34] <ajmitch> morning \sh 
[07:34] <\sh> guys...google uses jabber
[07:35] <luis__> yah
[07:35] <\sh> http://www.kron4.com/Global/story.asp?S=3757295
[07:35] <\sh> http://tomservo.cc/blogs/english/archive/2005/08/23/48.aspx
[07:35] <luis__> http://www.google.com/support/talk/bin/answer.py?answer=24073 <- instructions for gaim :)
[07:36] <\sh> gajim works as well
[07:36] <ajmitch> good to see jabber getting someone pushing it  :)
[07:37] <\sh> they doesn't support the SVR dns records, so u have to setup the "connecting to host" stuff..so shr591@gmail.com is my jid at google...if anyone wants to try
[07:38] <luis__> ajmitch: yeah; nice to see momentum behind open standards
[07:39] <\sh> ajmitch: until now google only opened the service..when they're pushing new services in then jabber is ready to rule the propietary IM world
[07:45] <`anthony> well, they've got an (undocumented) xmpp extension for doing voice calls, as well. yay! death to sip ;)
[07:46] <`anthony> \sh: Yeah, we're playing with it at work talking to each other. seems to work fine.
[07:46] <\sh> `anthony: what? The last time I talked to Peter he said, they're working on the JEP and Ulrich Staudinger never said a word...argl...I will kick them
[07:47] <luis__> \sh: they say in their page that they will support sip 'soon'
[07:47] <luis__> but in the meantime they have their own protocol that they will document
[07:47] <`anthony> http://www.google.com/talk/developer.html#protocols
[07:48] <`anthony> I don't mind, so long as they write it up soon, because otherwise I was going to look at writing the fucker myself.
[07:49] <\sh> `anthony: hmm...that sounds really good...and regarding UDU Goals I'm quite excited about this...
[07:49] <\sh> one client for everything...based on opensource standards
[07:49] <`anthony> \sh: yep.
[07:50] <ajmitch> \sh: you'll roll it into the shtoom goal?
[07:50] <`anthony> doesn't even have to be one client. one network is what's important.
[07:50] <\sh> ajmitch: that's one thing I wanted to do...signaling SIP calls via jabber
[07:50] <`anthony> open protocols, open networks, open source.
[07:50] <ajmitch> \sh: that would be great
[07:50] <ryanthiessen> have any of you been able to connect the talk.google.com to an outside jabber server?
[07:50] <`anthony> \sh: You're not the only one.
[07:50] <\sh> ryanthiessen: no
[07:50] <\sh> ryanthiessen: it's not configured..and SVR records doesn't work either
[07:50] <`anthony> ryanthiessen: Nope, looks like the federation isn't set up yet.
[07:51] <ryanthiessen> I do hope they support that eventually
[07:51] <\sh> `anthony: seeing that you're the famous shtoom guy :) I would like to have u on board for this project...*run*
[07:52] <ryanthiessen> \sh, you asked for bugreports for gajim, and I'm happy to say that it works fine with google :-)
[07:52] <`anthony> \sh: it's on my list of goals for shtoom for the next few months.
[07:52] <\sh> `anthony: so we can work together on this adventure?
[07:53] <\sh> ryanthiessen: it works fine as well with other jabber servers :) 
[07:56] <doko> good morning
[07:56] <\sh> oh damn...I have to go back to the office
[07:56] <\sh> only 3 hours of sleep is not enough
[07:57] <ajmitch> \sh: coffee
[07:57] <\sh> good morning doko :)
[07:57] <ajmitch> morning doko 
[07:58] <\sh> ajmitch: I went to office at 3:00 UTC, worked on a change request, and went back home one hour later..just went to bed again..and one hour later..I'm sitting here :)
[07:58] <\sh> and have to go back..:(
[07:58] <ajmitch> \sh: you're crazy
[07:58] <ajmitch> no wonder you turn to ubuntu for comfort :)
[07:59] <\sh> hahaha
[08:00] <\sh> ok...preparing to head to office...laters :)
[08:06] <fabbione> daniels: any news for the fixed mesa ?
[08:10] <luis__> gnome-app-install has gotten quite nice- congrats, guys
[08:10] <luis__> mdz: don't know if you care or not, but my livecd on top of your daily of yesterday seems to work pretty well
[08:12] <pitti> Good morning, world
[08:13] <fabbione> hey pitti
[08:13] <infinity> Good morning, Mr Piiii-iiitt!
[08:13] <ajmitch> hi pitti 
[08:14] <daniels> fabbione: i've bene working on the serve,r but uploading now
[08:16] <fabbione> daniels: great thanks
[08:45] <jdub> so how much ugliness can we rip out of the pre-usplash boot process
[08:45] <jdub> there's grub poo
[08:45] <jdub> then the single audit blabber from the kernel
[08:45] <jdub> which should probably be killed by 'quiet'
[08:46] <Treenaks> I get a few "hda3: No such volume group"-like messages after that
[08:46] <Treenaks> and then usplash comes up
[08:46] <infinity> As do I.  I assume that's an initramfs bug/misfeature, though.
[08:47] <lathiat> yeh ditto
[08:47] <lathiat> one thing i noticed is that initrams seems to take alot of time to start booting
[08:47] <bob2> more than an initrd?
[08:47] <lathiat> yes
[08:47] <lathiat> significantly
[08:47] <lathiat> like 4-5 seconds
[08:47] <bob2> yay for suspend-to-ram then ;)
[08:47] <lathiat> heh
[08:48] <bob2> is suspend-to-disk any faster in 2.6.12?
[08:48] <infinity> Hard to qualify, since it never worked on my machine until just recently.
[08:48] <bob2> you're right, it's all about frozen bubble splash screens ;)
[08:48] <lathiat> bob2: what the hell else do you want!?
[08:48] <infinity> So, I'm comparing an old Celeron 550 to a new Pentium-M 2GHz, and yeah, it's faster now.  <smirk>
[08:49] <bob2> hah
[09:17] <pitti> infinity: out of interest, do our buildd chroots update theirselves regularly? (build-essential and so on)
[09:20] <siretart> morning
[09:20] <siretart> bob2: ping :)
[09:21] <infinity> pitti : Yes.  Once daily.
[09:21] <pitti> infinity: cool, thanks
[09:26] <pitti> Moin mvo
[09:30] <mvo> hey pitti 
[09:33] <fabbione> daniels: do you remembe what do i need to export in the enviroment to use X -dbg libraries?
[09:34] <Mithrandir> fabbione: gdb should do that automatically, IIRC?
[09:34] <fabbione> Mithrandir: i am not sure...
[09:35] <fabbione> oh yeah
[09:35] <fabbione> it does
[09:55] <fabbione> daniels: i need your help.. there is a regression in either xterm or libxt
[09:56] <fabbione> basically xterm from hoary was using XTerm-color as default and if the file was not there, it was switching back to XTerm
[09:56] <fabbione> (/etc/X11....)
[09:56] <daniels> that'd be a regression in xterm then, I guess
[09:56] <fabbione> now it uses as default class XTerm
[09:56] <fabbione> it searches from XTerm-color
[09:56] <fabbione> but in the wrong place...
[09:56] <daniels> fabbione: look at xterm then
[09:56] <fabbione> daniels: i am not that sure...
[09:57] <fabbione> because xterm invokes XtOpenApplictions to read these files
[09:57] <fabbione> i can't see any code that takes care of that directly in xterm
[09:57] <fabbione> and that happens inside main
[10:03] <DrSpin> can I bug you guys about something for a sec?? I wanted to ask some questions before I filed a bug report...
[10:03] <daniels> it was probably a change to xterm to read XTerm-color resources first.  somehow I doubt libXt has a special case for xterm ...
[10:04] <fabbione> daniels: it still reads XTerm-color first, but in the wrong place
[10:04] <daniels> fabbione: define 'wrong place'
[10:04] <fabbione> it searches first in ~ but not in /etc/X11...
[10:05] <fabbione> as soon as it can't fine XTerm-color in ~ it tries XTerm, first in ~ and then in /etc...
[10:05] <fabbione> the latter succeed
[10:05] <DrSpin> when I logout of my X session whether in XFCE or GNOME, I have trailing applications that don't close -- specifically dbus-daemon-1 and gam_server -- can't seem to get anyone to help me troubleshoot this but I had the same problem on this box before a reformat and again before another reformat -- this is with a clean home DIR and clean config files for the ENTIRE OS
[10:06] <jdub> DrSpin: they time out after a while
[10:07] <DrSpin> jdub: so having 15 instances running doesn't hurt anything?? 
[10:09] <jdub> if you have 15 users who have just logged out, no
[10:10] <jdub> if you have 15 instances running for a single user that never time out, yes
[10:11] <DrSpin> jdub: I have 2 users on this system -- I like to leave my box on for days at a time -- I'll leave town for the weekend and come back and still have dbus-daemon-1 laying around -- 
[10:11] <DrSpin> not sure about gam_server -- only noticed a parallel recently
[10:12] <daniels> fabbione: no idea, sorry
[10:14] <DrSpin> jdub: if I should just ignore this, is there any documentation on how long they stick around?? I'm somewhat anal and if a user is logged out anything associated with that session *should* in my head at least, no longer exist -- 
[10:14] <DrSpin> unless it's a service or system app -- but as a regular user...
[10:15] <fabbione> daniels: ok.. we will figure it out
[10:17] <ogra> morning
[10:19] <jsgotangco> hi ogra
[10:21] <\sh> remoins
[10:25] <ogra> remoins ? hehe
[10:29] <DrSpin> jdub: if I should just ignore this, is there any documentation on how long they(dbus-daemon-1 && gam_server) stick around??
[10:39] <\sh> ogra: 7:00 localtime I was sitting here ,-)
[10:39] <ogra> meh
[10:51] <\sh> morning sabdfl 
[10:51] <pitti> Hi sabdfl 
[10:52] <sabdfl> morning all
[10:52] <pitti> seb128: okay for you if I package g-v-m 1.3.6?
[10:52] <Mithrandir> mjg59: do you have your amd64-x86emu-crack-vbetool somewhere?
[10:52] <pitti> seb128: there is also 1.5.0, but I think we should rather stay with 1.3 in Breezy
[10:53] <seb128> hey pitti
[10:53] <seb128> pitti: sure, I was not going to touch it anyway, g-v-m is yours :)
[10:53] <seb128> I've enough to do with my toys :)
[10:53] <pitti> ok
[10:57] <pitti> seb128: one question: what's preferable, calling nautilus-cd-burner, or "nautilus --no-desktop burn:"
[10:57] <pitti> ?
[10:58] <jdub> the second
[10:58] <pitti> ok
[10:58] <jdub> saves letting n-c-b doing it for you ;)
[10:58] <pitti> the latter is the new g-v-m default
[10:58] <infinity> doko : Dude, you're about 2 weeks behind the times.
[10:58] <pitti> so I don't need to change it
[10:59] <seb128> pitti: what jdub said :)
[10:59] <seb128> grrr
[10:59] <seb128> 80 bugs mail since monday
[10:59] <daniels> seb128: ?!?
[10:59] <daniels> seb128: why don't you have my bug mail
[11:00] <seb128> I've enough with these ones, thanks :p
[11:01] <doko> infinity: ?
[11:02] <infinity> doko : libgl1-xorg is dead.
[11:02] <infinity> doko : I'm uploading OOo2 again to fix that. :)
[11:03] <doko> infinity: doesn't it build at all?
[11:03] <doko> it's fixed for the m125 uploads, so if it builds, no other upload is needed
[11:04] <infinity> doko : libgl1-xorg?... It builds right now, but not with the next X upload.  Have yo unot noticed all the xorg -> mesa changes I've been making i nthe last week? :)
[11:04] <siretart> infinity: libgl1-xorg dead? then I hope #14017 will be fixed soon, else no direct rendering ;)
[11:04] <doko> infinity: as I said, fixed for m125 ...
[11:05] <infinity> doko : Kay, so it suggest libgl1-mesa now?
[11:05] <doko> yes
[11:05] <infinity> doko : Fix the package description for s/xlibmesa-gl/libgl1-mesa/ too.
[11:05] <daniels> siretart: it's i810-specific
[11:05] <doko> infinity: fixed as well
[11:06] <siretart> daniels: oh. I thought it was a general problem with libgl. ok
[11:06] <\sh> guys..problems with seahorse-agent 
[11:07] <\sh> hmmm...
[11:07] <daniels> siretart: if DRI was broken in general, I wouldn't have uploaded the new mesa
[11:15] <madduck> is the date and location for the next ubuntuconf already set?
[11:15] <jdub> madduck: see the ubuntu-announce archives
[11:15] <jdub> it was announced today
[11:15] <madduck> weird. i am subscribed there...
[11:15] <madduck> well, i guess i'll just have to wait...
[11:15] <madduck> jdub: thanks anyway.
[11:15] <pitti> Hi madduck 
[11:15] <jdub> it'll be on the web archives
[11:15] <madduck> pitti: how are you?
[11:16] <pitti> fine, thanks; and you?
[11:16] <pitti> packaging a new g-v-m, it's really fun this time :-)
[11:16] <madduck> lol
[11:16] <madduck> i am ok. struggling to make a 180 degrees turn in my life without making too many enemies
[11:17] <madduck> "OCT30 -> Ubuntu Love Day (Interesting to Everyone)" -- i bet. :)
[11:17] <\sh> madduck: divorced? ;)
[11:18] <madduck> \sh: nah, quite the contrary. i *did* have a great confrontation with my g/f this morning at 4am when she rose up from deep sleep and thought that there was nothing more important than to discuss the future of our relationship.
[11:18] <madduck> but you didn't want to hear that.
[11:19] <mvo> anyone here with a ppc desktop that runs breezy? I would like to know if you see update-notifier consuming 100% cpu after a recent upgrade
[11:19] <mvo> (just got a bugreport from a ppc user and I can't reproduce it here)
[11:20] <\sh> madduck: hehe :) I know this all :) I made my 180 Degree turn last year...and I'm not recovered completly from it :)
[11:21] <madduck> sounds reconfirming.
[11:23] <pef> hello
[11:23] <\sh> madduck: at least starting a single life agian from scratch is an adventure 
[11:24] <madduck> i sometimes wish... 
[11:24] <madduck> damn. flight to montreal comes in at 700 EUR.
[11:25] <ogra> madduck, you can try to get sponsoring... see the attendees subpage on the wiki
[11:26] <madduck> ogra: i am not active enough, not am i from the Americas.
[11:26] <madduck> but i can try.
[11:26] <pef> ogra: hi
[11:26] <ogra> madduck, trying is cheap ;)
[11:27] <ogra> haha, after i made the uzpgrade of about 150 packages, now update-notifier says there are upgrades available...
[11:27] <ogra> mvo, your app is a bit late ;)
[11:28] <mvo> ogra: are there still upgrades available now? or does the arrow point into the void?
[11:28] <ogra> mvo, nope... it closed itself after the notification... 
[11:28] <pitti> mvo: btw, this morning I got two arrows...
[11:29] <pef> a motu available to check my package ? (1 vote missing) http://siretart.tauware.de/revu/details.py?upid=413 thanks !
[11:29] <ogra> pitti, i had this yesterday... (if you mean the popup bubbles)
[11:29] <mvo> pitti: yes, I got a bug about it, I think it's actually two notification windows that are overlapping, but I haven't invetigated it enough yet 
[11:35] <{Seb}> i've been looking around
[11:35] <{Seb}> and there is still no wv-dev package in breezy
[11:36] <ogra> pitti,  * Starting Hardware abstraction layer:
[11:36] <ogra> run-parts: /etc/dbus-1/event.d/20hal exited with return code 1
[11:36] <ogra>  * Starting Power management daemon:                                     [ ok ] 
[11:36] <ogra> invoke-rc.d: initscript dbus, action "restart" failed.
[11:36] <ogra> ^^^^ recent upgrade
[11:36] <{Seb}> beagle uses wv for searching MS Word files and without wv-dev
[11:36] <pitti> ogra: did you stop it before?
[11:36] <{Seb}> i have to build wv-dev from scratch
[11:36] <{Seb}> i've put it into malone
[11:36] <ogra> pitti, nope, the upgrade script...
[11:36] <pitti> ogra: p-m's upgrade script is not supposed to restart hal...
[11:37] <ogra> pitti, i havent cleaned the pre/postinst of PowerManager yet
[11:37] <{Seb}> is that the correct thing to do?
[11:37] <ogra> pitti, yes, but hal is not supposed to fail on dbus restarts i guess
[11:37] <pitti> right
[11:37] <pitti> ogra: I'll look into it
[11:37] <pitti> ogra: hald is *very* hard to kill
[11:37] <ogra> and i'll clean the postinst :)
[11:37] <pitti> I already did some extra measures
[11:37] <pitti> ok
[11:38] <{Seb}> what is the difference between the bugzilla, launchpad and malone?
[11:38] <pitti> ogra: $ sudo /etc/init.d/dbus restart -> WFM
[11:39] <ogra> hangs here
[11:39] <ogra> on  * Starting Hardware abstraction layer:
[11:39] <ogra> ah, now the same error
[11:39] <ogra> run-parts: /etc/dbus-1/event.d/20hal exited with return code 2
[11:39] <pitti> ogra: please check if there is still an old process
[11:39] <pitti> ogra: sudo killall hald 
[11:39] <pitti> ogra: and do it again
[11:40] <ogra> ah, yes, there still is an old process
[11:40] <ogra> ok, now it starts cleanly....
[11:40] <ogra> lets try restart
[11:41] <ogra> yup
[11:41] <pitti> ok, so sometimes hald doesn't want to die...
[11:41] <ogra> might have been the old version
[11:41] <pitti> I'll apply some more force in /etc/dbus-1/event.d/20hal
[11:41] <ogra> i didnt upgrade for some days...
[11:42] <pitti> ogra: did the stop part fail?
[11:42] <ogra> it didnt say so...
[11:43] <ogra> but it obviously failed, since there was a process left
[11:43] <pitti> ok
[11:52] <jsgotangco> hey hno73 
[11:53] <hno73> jsgotangco: hey
[11:59] <Mithrandir> does anybody understand what the guy in 9799 is actually trying to say?
[12:00] <jsgotangco> it seems to be a problem in enigmail rather than a thunderbird issue
[12:01] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: Yikes, that doesn't even _look_ like English
[12:01] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: it looks like english, but falls flat on its face when parsed.
[12:01] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: ok, true
[12:02] <Mithrandir> ogra: can you verify that 10290 works for you?
[12:03] <ogra> Starting nmap 3.81 ( http://www.insecure.org/nmap/ ) at 2005-08-24 12:03 CEST
[12:03] <ogra> Failed to determine the netmask of ! : No such device
[12:03] <ogra> hmm
[12:04] <ogra> i have a lo
[12:04] <seb128> \sh: Debian has a gajim 0.8 package using CDBS, why do you remake it to use debhelper?
[12:04] <ogra> Mithrandir, but it doesnt crash apparently...
[12:04] <Mithrandir> ogra: can you do an apt-get --reinstall install nmap and see if you still see the problem?
[12:06] <ogra> Mithrandir, same
[12:06] <ogra> Mithrandir, but  according to comment #1 its not supposed to work and it doesnt crash
[12:07] <ogra> so i would see it solved
[12:09] <Mithrandir> ogra: does nmap 127.0.0.1 work for you?
[12:10] <Mithrandir> -oO 127.0.0.1 SIGSEGVs for me now.
[12:12] <pitti> ogra: fixed hal, uploaded now
[12:18] <ogra> pitti, can i poke you to have a look at the python-pysqlite2 inclusion report soon...? it gets a bit awkward to spam the buildlogs with gcompris the whole day... its the last package that holds up edubuntu-desktop.... and i think this report a no brainer
[12:21] <pitti> ogra: yep, just finished with my other stuff, I do some reviews now
[12:21] <ogra> yay, thanks a lot :)
[12:24] <pitti> sjoerd: ping
[12:37] <pitti> doko: why is bsh in multiverse ATM?
[12:38] <doko> pitti: ENOCLUE, better ask elmo ...
[12:39] <Mithrandir> pitti: it needs javacc to build, iit
[12:39] <Mithrandir> iirc
[12:39] <pitti> elmo: why is bsh in multiverse?
[12:39] <pitti> Mithrandir: yes, but javacc is in universe
[12:39] <Mithrandir> pitti: it might be hysterical raisins, then.  javacc used to be very non-free
[12:39] <pitti> ok
[12:40] <pitti> doko: btw, what did change in OOO recently that it needs a whole new bunch of build-deps?
[12:42] <doko> pitti: using the packages, and not the sources included in the OOo2 source
[12:42] <pitti> ah, ok
[12:42] <doko> besides mdbtools, for which I'm writing a report now ...
[12:42] <doko> (for opening Access databases)
[12:47] <pitti> doko: can you please create a separate page for mdbtools?
[12:47] <pitti> FWIW, I just released the lock on OOO2deps
[12:47] <infinity> ogra : Is that one MainInclusionReport the only thing standing between us and gcompris building?  It's the only thing in main that still has  alibcairo1 dependency.
[12:48] <doko> pitti: ok
[12:56] <doko> pitti: done, ready for review ;-)
[12:56] <pitti> thanks
[01:07] <pitti> ogra: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportMoodle
[01:10] <ogra> pitti: i havent come around to fix the wwwconfig-common stuff yet
[01:10] <ogra> i'll fox the recommends too then, thanks
[01:11] <ogra> (and i cant do anything about the sce. history, sorry :) )
[01:11] <ogra> sec. even
[01:17] <Mithrandir> yay
[01:19] <sjoerd> pitti: pong
[01:29] <ogra_ltsp> pitti, what do i have to do for mediawiki ? moin is no option for edubuntu
[01:29] <fabbione> ogra_ltsp: what's the installer option to get ltsp install
[01:29] <fabbione> ?
[01:30] <ogra_ltsp> fabbione, there is none
[01:30] <ogra_ltsp> fabbione, install ltsp-server-standalone and run sudo ltsp-build-client....
[01:30] <ogra_ltsp> fabbione, or even test edubuntu
[01:31] <infinity> ogra_ltsp : What's wrong with moin?
[01:31] <ogra_ltsp> fabbione, http://www.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuTesting
[01:31] <fabbione> ogra_ltsp: ok.. i need to test the normal CD first
[01:31] <ogra_ltsp> infinity, we committed to mediawiki, all our users (teachers denied moin for their schools...) wikipedia needs mediawiki
[01:32] <ogra_ltsp> EWRONGBRACKETS
[01:33] <ogra_ltsp> infinity, the most important usecase is wikipedia... i doubt they'll use it for something else, since we promised moodle
[01:33] <infinity> Fair enough.
[01:34] <ogra_ltsp> and we aim at schools with no online access, so they need to be able to pop in a wikipedia dvd and run it on the server
[01:34] <ogra_ltsp> thats why it needs to be in the default install
[01:34] <ogra_ltsp> it == mediawiki
[01:35] <ogra_ltsp> pitti, is there really no way ? 
[01:37] <pitti> ogra_ltsp: I just wrote down my feeling; if we have to support it, so be it
[01:37] <pitti> ogra_ltsp: I just didn't know why moin is no option
[01:37] <pitti> sjoerd: Hi!
[01:38] <pitti> sjoerd: recently I uploaded a whole lot of new utopia crack
[01:38] <ogra_ltsp> pitti, i have the same feeling, but we commited to mediawiki at the summit... 
[01:38] <pitti> sjoerd: also, do you think the stuff should be uploaded to main soon? IMHO it should
[01:38] <pitti> ogra_ltsp: if I have sabdf1 and you against me, then I have to bow :-)
[01:39] <ogra_ltsp> pitti, so lets hear sabdfl
[01:39] <sjoerd> pitti: to unstable you mean ?
[01:39] <pitti> sjoerd: erm, yes
[01:39] <pitti> sjoerd: the stuff just sits in experimental and nobody uses it
[01:39] <pitti> sjoerd: at the same time it fixes so much stuff...
[01:40] <sjoerd> pitti: i'm planning to update all the stuff in experimental this week(end)
[01:41] <sjoerd> pitti: probably for debian it's best to switch when also switching to G2.12 in unstable.. that saves a lot of unneccessary G2.10 patching..
[01:41] <pitti> sjoerd: ok, right
[01:41] <pitti> sjoerd: btw, for Breezy I packaged g-v-m 1.3.6 instead of 1.5.0 to stay on the safe side
[01:42] <pitti> sjoerd: but 1.5.0 is certainly more appropriate for Debian
[01:42] <sjoerd> yup
[01:42] <pitti> sjoerd: 1.3.6 was really fun - upstream accepted all of our fixes :-)
[01:42] <sjoerd> is breezy staying with the current dbus release or going to the new one that was just released ?
[01:42] <sjoerd> pitti: that rocks ;)
[01:43] <pitti> sjoerd: we really stay with 0.35 now, no more exceptions
[01:44] <sjoerd> pitti: i'm also gonna switch to lsb init scripts, so that should make the debian <-> ubuntu diff smaller again :)
[01:44] <pitti> sjoerd: cool
[01:44] <pitti> sjoerd: Md uses it for udev, so it's already important anyway
[01:44] <sjoerd> pitti: btw still haven't heard from the cryptsetup maintainer :(
[01:46] <sjoerd> pitti: bah :(
[01:47] <daniels> gar!!!
[01:47] <daniels> i think the discover1 merge dropped patches, again
[01:49] <infinity> elmo : Can I get mesa's new binary package shoved through NEW?
[01:51] <Diziet> Joy, now I get to debug some daft thing in apt.
[01:53] <Diziet> I have a typescript of it downloading some .deb which it then complains doesn't exist.  (And then it goes and tries to use the fd -1 that it got out of open anyway, but that's a different problem.)
[01:53] <seb128> elmo: please sync gtk+2.0 from debian incoming
[01:56] <mvo> Diziet: can you send/show that script to me?
[01:56] <mvo> Diziet: sounds like a bug in the new progress-reporting code
[01:57] <Diziet> mvo: I've put it in chinstrap:~iwj/d/typescript
[01:59] <Diziet> The progress reporting code can make it fail to find the file ?
[01:59] <mvo> Diziet: no, that was about the fd that was -1
[01:59] <Diziet> mvo: Oh, right.  That bit is easy to fix.
[01:59] <Diziet> It's the way the file apparently vanishes that's strange.
[01:59] <mvo> Diziet: is the problem reproducable?
[02:00] <Diziet> I haven't tried yet.  I didn't want to perturb it.
[02:00] <Diziet> The way it carries on blithely after all of those errors is rather worrying.
[02:01] <pitti> no worries :-)
[02:01] <ogra_ltsp> :)
[02:02] <mdke> who maintains ddclient?
[02:02] <mdke> ah its universe
[02:03] <mvo> Diziet: a strange error! did it happen on a hoary->breezy upgrade
[02:04] <Diziet> mvo: Yes.  I installed hoary from the i386 CD, edited the sources.list, and ran apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade.
[02:06] <Diziet> AFAICT this code in apt-pkg/contrib/fileutl.{h,cc} is BAD.  There is no way for (eg) FileFd::Size to actually tell its caller that it didn't work.
[02:06] <Diziet> The only correct way to implement that interface has it bomb out the entire program or throw a C++ exception.  Does apt use exceptions ?
[02:10] <mvo> Diziet: no
[02:10] <jtan325> hi i am having a slight problem when building my own debian package for a small program 
[02:10] <Diziet> Alternatively ::Tell and ::Size could be changed to have a reference argument for returning the answer, changing all callers.
[02:11] <jtan325> i've gotten it to build with debuild, 
[02:11] <jtan325> i am just getting an annoying error with lintian
[02:11] <jtan325> complaining about manpage-in-wrong-directory
[02:11] <jtan325> i've read the man page for dh_installman
[02:11] <jtan325> and have also googled
[02:12] <jtan325> and my first impression was something was wrong with the man page i was provide
[02:12] <jtan325> *providing
[02:12] <jtan325> so i checked that, but i'm pretty sure the section number is right
[02:12] <jtan325> so i tried, just to try, not even including "dh_installman" as one of the build rules
[02:13] <jtan325> but i still get the same error
[02:21] <Diziet> apt--
[02:23] <Diziet> This program would appear to have a fundamentally incorrect algorithm.
[02:24] <mvo> Diziet: what bit exactly
[02:26] <Diziet> The bit where it replaces libc6 with a version whose dependencies aren't met by the current system and then refuses to start because libc6-dev has unmet dependencies.
[02:27] <Diziet> (in between it had bombed out due to another error)
[02:33] <Diziet> (err, the first libc6 in that sentence should read libc6-dev)
[02:34] <doko> daniels: after reboot the mouse wheel stopped working, current breezy amd64, ZAxisMapping however is defined
[02:35] <fabbione> mdz: daily install looks good here
[02:35] <daniels> doko: i believe this is a kernel bug
[02:35] <fabbione> doko: what if you unload/reload mousedev ?
[02:36] <fabbione> doko: do you still have /dev/input/mice and /dev/psaux?
[02:36] <fabbione> if so -> X
[02:36] <fabbione> no recent kernel upgrades did touch the mouse
[02:37] <daniels> fabbione: nothing in the mouse code has changed
[02:38] <daniels> fabbione: (in X)
[02:38] <daniels> or input handling
[02:38] <fabbione> daniels: hotplug...
[02:38] <daniels> doko: if you can narrow it down to which version of xserver-xorg broke it (or which version of the kerenl, even better), that would rock
[02:38] <fabbione> i think we can blame hotplug or udev :)
[02:38] <daniels> fabbione: hotplug is suppressing scroll wheel events but nothing else?
[02:39] <fabbione> daniels: the effect i see here is that mousedev is loaded too early..
[02:39] <daniels> ah, ok
[02:39] <fabbione> so i don't get anymouse at boot
[02:39] <daniels> keybuk's fault.  score.
[02:39] <fabbione> rmmod modprobe fixes it
[02:40] <HiddenWolf> fabbione, you might want to repeat that stuff for doko
[02:40] <HiddenWolf> ^^
[02:40] <doko> fabbione: yes, both devices are created
[02:40] <fabbione> doko: ok thanks
[02:40] <Saba_Z> hey all
[02:40] <fabbione> doko: does the mouse start to work again if you rmmod mousedev and modprobe it again?
[02:41] <fabbione> hi Saba_Z :)
[02:41] <doko> fabbione: while X is running?
[02:41] <fabbione> doko: nope.. you can't inside X
[02:41] <fabbione> you need to logout, kill gdm, rmmod/modprobe and restart gdm
[02:42] <doko> I stopped X, rmmod/modprobe, started X again, same behaviour
[02:42] <fabbione> the mouse needs to be fully reinitialized
[02:42] <fabbione> ok
[02:42] <fabbione> blame X :)
[02:42] <fabbione> or check if there are data coming from the mouse moving only the scrollwheel
[02:42] <doko> daniels: ^^^
[02:42] <doko> xev?
[02:43] <daniels> doko: xev output would be nice, too
[02:43] <doko> no, nothing from the wheel ...
[02:43] <daniels> doko: stop X, cat /dev/input/mice, and generate scroll wheel events
[02:44] <doko> wait ...
[02:45] <Saba_Z> fabbione: i am trying to complete / test my deb package
[02:46] <fabbione> Saba_Z: cool !
[02:46] <fabbione> i am looking forward to test it
[02:46] <doko> fabbione, daniels: no events on the console without X
[02:46] <daniels> fabbione: YOU WIN! :)
[02:46] <fabbione> doko: what kernel are you running?
[02:47] <fabbione> daniels: don't be so sure...
[02:47] <doko> 2.6.12-7-amd64-k8
[02:47] <fabbione> becaue not all mouse events are mapped directly by the kernel
[02:47] <daniels> well, something that is not X wins.
[02:47] <fabbione> doko: do you have an older kernel in the 2.6.12 series around?
[02:48] <doko> no, 2.6.10 only
[02:48] <fabbione> doko: well you have an amd64 or there should be the morgue around...
[02:48] <fabbione> if you can identify when the breakage did happen it would be slightly more useful
[02:49] <Saba_Z> fabbione: is this going to be uploaded to breezy if i mail it now?
[02:49] <fabbione> or look at the mouse source code/Docs in the kernel
[02:49] <daniels> fabbione: the morgue has been broken for months
[02:49] <fabbione> some of them have options that might need to be turned on
[02:49] <fabbione> Saba_Z: i will need to check with mdz about that..
[02:50] <fabbione> Saba_Z: in theory we can upload it to universe, but i am not sure it can make main
[02:50] <fabbione> not at this point in time 
[02:50] <fabbione> Saba_Z: but universe would still be a very good result
[02:50] <fabbione> and it will speed up it's way to main for breezy+1
[02:50] <Saba_Z> fabbione: i think more test is needed if you want to add it to main
[02:51] <fabbione> ok.. than complete your deb and we will push it to universe
[02:51] <fabbione> little careful steps are the best towards main
[02:51] <doko> fabbione: hmm, can't find deb's on morgue. aficr ekmo did stop syncing debs to morgue due to space constraints
[02:52] <mvo> Saba_Z: what package is that?
[02:52] <Saba_Z> ok i will send you the package in 1 hour
[02:52] <fabbione> doko: well ask elmo to grab one for you when he is around...
[02:52] <fabbione> Saba_Z: no rush.. i am going offline now till tomorrow morning
[02:52] <Saba_Z> mvo: it is smallbusiness server
[02:53] <fabbione> mvo: Google SOC
[02:53] <_SWAT_> I've had this problem a few times know. I think it happens when my PC is on for a week or so. Then suddenly, when I hold a "k"button down, it's only printed once (instead of lots of k's). Anyone any idea which process is responsible for this?
[02:54] <fabbione> daniels: you win!
[02:58] <daniels> fabbione: hmm?
[03:00] <doko> deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/OOo2/ ./
[03:00] <doko> deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/OOo2-powerpc/ ./
[03:00] <doko> ^^^ pitti, daniels, seb128: please could you have a look at these packages? i.e. the i386 build does have the cairo bits enabled. pitti, I currently don't have a powerpc around
[03:02] <daniels> doko: ... what should I be looking at?
[03:03] <doko> load a presentation with Impress, and watch it in full screen mode. That's the module that makes use of cairo
[03:03] <daniels> do you have a presentation handy?
[03:04] <doko> martink: do you still have the test presentations at hand?
[03:04] <daniels> and, uhh ... as I said the other day, this is a really bad idea
[03:05] <daniels> dri drivers just aren't stable enough
[03:05] <pitti> doko: will do, but first I need to upgrade my laptop
[03:05] <doko> pitti: thanks
[03:05] <doko> daniels: yes, will be disabled in the final one
[03:05] <doko> but it's running stable for me
[03:06] <daniels> doko: uhm, ok.
[03:07] <martink> doko, there was really nothing special about them, but last time (for the amd64 problems) I used these urls: http://marketing.openoffice.org/ooocon2004/ooocon2004template.sxi and http://www.gnome.org/~michael/ukuug-2005-ooo/ooo.odp
[03:11] <mvo> anyone here running breezy with scim input method?
[03:29] <mdke> is Kamion on holiday?
[03:30] <crispin> yes, until the 30th I think
[03:30] <mdke> ok thanks
[03:32] <\sh> grmpf...how can I add a source package in malone?
[03:32] <\sh> source package name?
[03:58] <ogra_> elmo, whats the status for the blackdown packages ? 
[04:16] <mvo> mjg59: the usplash in 2.6.12-7 is not yet supposed to do anything more than to display a ubuntu-screen+logo, right?
[04:17] <ogra_> oh... that reminds me
[04:17] <ogra_> mjg59, the picture is broken since -7
[04:17] <ogra_> (for me on amd64 with widescreen display)
[04:18] <Mitario> if I want to propose an new UI layout for gksu(do) would I have to submit the patch to Ubuntu, or to the upstream maintainers?
[04:20] <mvo> Mitario: upstream is kov (gustavo) from debian and he's very friendly and reponsive
[04:20] <Mitario> mvo, allright thanks :)
[04:21] <mvo> Mitario: there are various enhancement bugs in the BTS already, you may want to check them out first (with some really nice ideas)
[04:21] <mvo> Mitario: your welcome :)
[04:21] <Mitario> ubuntu bts?
[04:22] <ogra_> bugzilla.ubuntu.com
[04:22] <bddebian> Howdy
[04:23] <mjg59> mvo: Correct
[04:23] <mjg59> ogra_: Uh. Odd.
[04:23] <mjg59> ogra_: I can't /think/ of anything that's changed. In what way is it broken?
[04:23] <Mitario> ogra, right, thanks
[04:23] <Mitario> pff have two meetings this evening, hope I'll be on time for MOTU
[04:23] <ogra_> mjg59, it still works but the image is mangled.... its rather black with blue stripes
[04:24] <mjg59> ogra_: Hmm. Have you changed screen expansion options at all, by any chance?
[04:24] <ogra_> mjg59, but i can still recognize the rectangle thats thought for scrolling text
[04:24] <ogra_> mjg59, nope
[04:24] <ogra_> mjg59, only upgraded to the -7 kernel
[04:24] <ogra_> i can try to take a picture for you
[04:24] <mjg59> ogra_: That's... deeply odd.
[04:25] <mjg59> There were no changes to the vga16 code
[04:26] <ogra_> mjg59, i'll take a digi pic as soon as i can afford to reboot
[04:26] <rburton> i take it too late to push dbus 0.36 into breezy?
[04:26] <mjg59> ogra_: Thanks
[04:26] <ogra_> rburton, far to late
[04:27] <rburton> ogra_: how about a 10 line patch for a crasher?
[04:28] <ogra_> rburton, talk to mdz about it if he's around... i havent seen any crashers yet...
[04:28] <elmo> doko: half these zope packages are still in incoming
[04:28] <daniels> ogra_: not necessarily
[04:28] <elmo> doko: unless it's urgent, I'm going to leave them till they're in the archive proper
[04:29] <daniels> rburton: anything compelling over .35.1?  i just skimmed j5's post tbh
[04:29] <rburton> http://cvs.freedesktop.org/dbus/dbus/dbus/dbus-errors.c?r1=1.27&r2=1.28 just hit me
[04:29] <rburton> dbus frees then uses a string if there is an error sent over the bus
[04:29] <elmo> doko: (and if it is urgent, I'm going to need a list of sync what from where, not just "all these, and please sort out the details yourself kthxbye")
[04:30] <rburton> daniels: and the decent resursive type work would be useful
[04:30] <mvo> ping ogra_
[04:31] <elmo> seb128: done
[04:31] <ogra_> mvo, pong
[04:31] <daniels> rburton: ok, I'll try to ram it in
[04:32] <rburton> sweet
[04:32] <Diziet> Strange splash screen> I get that too.
[04:32] <mjg59> Diziet: Hrmph.
[04:32] <doko> elmo: well, it would be nice, if I could on them with the SoC student. only the -cps dependencies (the third mail) should be in incoming, all other in experimental. 
[04:33] <mjg59> Right, I'll look into that later on
[04:33] <doko> elmo: sorry, the lists are reasonable complete. Do you need them in another format?
[04:34] <mjg59> Diziet: Oh, hang on. Is this on your laptop?
[04:35] <elmo> > zope-atrbw_1.1-1_i386.changes
[04:35] <elmo> ^-- that's in incoming for example
[04:36] <elmo> doko: dude, it's very simple, I need a list of pkg_version and from what repo
[04:36] <elmo> I'm not going to run around working what is where
[04:36] <elmo> or you can wait till post cron.daily
[04:36] <doko> ok, so <pkg> <version> <archive> ?
[04:36] <elmo> sure
[04:36] <doko> fine
[04:40] <Mitario> mvo, do you know if gustavo is available on irc somewhere
[04:41] <mvo> Mitario: kov in #debian-devel
[04:43] <pitti> mvo: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/shots/u-m.png
[04:43] <Mitario> allright
[04:43] <mvo> daniels: I got a conffile question for 'xinitrc' on hoary(fresh install)->breezy upgrade, should I report this?
[04:43] <Treenaks> pitti: I see that too
[04:43] <Mitario> pitti, ah, have the same thing here :)
[04:43] <daniels> mvo: nah, known issue
[04:43] <Treenaks> pitti: but I have a second arrow in there too :)
[04:43] <Mitario> it's a bit freakier here though
[04:43] <daniels> mvo: thakns though :)
[04:43] <Mitario> Treenaks, me too
[04:43] <pitti> Treenaks: I saw that this morning
[04:44] <mvo> daniels: oki, thanks
[04:44] <Mitario> mvo, btw, shouldn't you add another text option to start UM?
[04:44] <Mitario> like 'Don't show this message again | List Updates' or st
[04:44] <mvo> pitti: thanks, I have seen it too. can you reproduce it?
[04:45] <pitti> mvo: logout/in?
[04:45] <mvo> Mitario: hm, good point
[04:46] <pitti> mvo: yes, relogin reproduces it
[04:46] <pitti> mvo: I can't get rid of the notification by clicking on it; odd
[04:46] <pitti> mvo: this works with other notifications...
[04:47] <pitti> mvo: merely restarting it produces a correct result
[04:49] <mvo> pitti: thanks, I see it here as well. I'll do some debugging now
[04:50] <pitti> mvo: sounds like a race condition between dbus, n-d, and u-n start...
[04:51] <mvo> pitti: sounds like fun ...
[04:52] <\sh> doko: wth is pype?
[04:53] <mpt> mvo: "Click on the update item" ... I don't see an "update item" in that screenshot anywhere
[04:53] <doko> \sh: apt-cache show pype
[04:53] <\sh> doko: x-app or console?
[04:54] <ogra_> mjg59, http://www.grawert.net/24-08-05_1640.jpg, sorry i have only my mobile to take photos currently
[04:54] <doko> \sh: line editor ;-P
[04:55] <\sh> doko: ha..I hoped it was an alternative to Eric/QT on Gnome
[04:55] <doko> \sh: apt-get install pype
[04:56] <\sh> wuaha
[04:57] <mjg59> ogra_: Ok, my guess is that you may have somehow ended up with the wrong framebuffer
[04:57] <mjg59> Either that, or vga16 has suddenly got *very* screwed
[04:57] <\sh> gnome popups appear...and my desktop is jumping from 4 to 2 and 3 to 1 or the other way around
[04:57] <shaya> mjg59: the hdaps seems to be coming along
[04:57] <ogra_> mjg59, it works as before, only the image is broken
[04:57] <mvo> mpt: the arrow is supposed to give the hint. So I should add a second button text "show-updates"?
[04:57] <mjg59> ogra_: Yeah. Which makes me think that it's the wrong framebuffer driver.
[04:58] <mpt> mvo: If you want people to click something to open a window listing the updates, why not just open a window listing the updates, without people having to click anything? (disclaimer: that's what OS X does)
[04:58] <ogra_> ogra@honk:~ $ lsmod|grep vga
[04:58] <ogra_> vga16fb                12864  1
[04:58] <ogra_> cfbcopyarea             4352  2 vesafb,vga16fb
[04:58] <ogra_> vgastate                9344  1 vga16fb
[04:58] <ogra_> cfbimgblt               3264  2 vesafb,vga16fb
[04:58] <ogra_> cfbfillrect             4864  2 vesafb,vga16fb
[04:58] <ogra_> softcursor              2880  2 vesafb,vga16fb
[04:58] <ogra_> mjg59, ^^^
[04:58] <\sh> seb128: help ,-)
[04:58] <ogra_> looks ok to me
[04:58] <mpt> mvo: The balloon is pretty and everything, but it seems like it's wasting people's time a bit (not to mention being harder to implement than just opening the window)
[04:59] <mjg59> ogra_: Can you lsmod | grep vesafb ?
[04:59] <mvo> mpt: it feels wrong to just open a big window without asking politly
[04:59] <ogra_> ogra@honk:~ $ lsmod|grep vesafb
[04:59] <ogra_> vesafb                  9252  0
[04:59] <ogra_> cfbcopyarea             4352  2 vesafb,vga16fb
[04:59] <ogra_> cfbimgblt               3264  2 vesafb,vga16fb
[04:59] <ogra_> cfbfillrect             4864  2 vesafb,vga16fb
[04:59] <ogra_> softcursor              2880  2 vesafb,vga16fb
[04:59] <ogra_> mjg59, voila
[04:59] <mvo> mpt: (to me at least)
[04:59] <ogra_> mjg59, should they both be loaded ? 
[05:00] <dredg> mvo: what about providing a link in the balloon to open the window?
[05:00] <mvo> dredg: yes, that sounds better to me
[05:00] <mpt> mvo: As long as it doesn't grab focus, IMO that would be better than making people do an unnecessary click
[05:01] <dredg> actually, a friend blogged this earlier today
[05:01] <dredg> http://lbedford.org/diary/2005/08/ubuntu-breezy-colony-3.html
[05:01] <HiddenWolf> dredg, nice blog, that
[05:02] <mvo> mpt: the biggest blocker for that right now is probably that update-manager needs to run with gksudo
[05:02] <mvo> dredg: thanks for the link
[05:02] <mjg59> ogra_: Hmm. That's probably ok.
[05:02] <mjg59> ogra_: Right, I'll look into it
[05:03] <mpt> mvo: Well, why are you showing updates at all to someone who can't install them?
[05:03] <mpt> oh, I see
[05:03] <doko> \sh: you may want to have a look at spe
[05:03] <mpt> they can install, they just need to enter the password
[05:03] <mvo> mpt: I would like to change that, but there is no easy way to figure if a user is allowed to run sudo applications. there is a spec about it
[05:04] <mpt> mvo: You don't need that
[05:04] <mvo> mpt: yes, they can install, they need the password
[05:04] <mvo> mpt: it would be nice to seperate that so that you don't need the password to show the updates, but that's not done yet
[05:04] <mpt> mvo: You just need to ask for the password when they click the "Install Updates" button, instead of when they open the window
[05:04] <Mitario> mvo, wouldn't there be a way to parse sudoers?
[05:04] <pitti> doko: downloading ooo2 now
[05:05] <mvo> Mitario: no, it's 600 for security reasons. we could cheat around the issue by checking for the admin group
[05:05] <rburton> daniels: libgl1-mesa-dev_6.3.2-0ubuntu2_i386.deb:
[05:05] <rburton>  trying to overwrite `/usr/include/GL/gl.h', which is also in package mesa-common-dev
[05:05] <Mitario> mpt, problem with that, you'll also need sudo access to configure software sources and update options, which are available from update-manager
[05:05] <daniels> rburton: wow.  i, er, suck.
[05:05] <rburton> :)
[05:05] <mvo> but that group was introducted only in hoary
[05:05] <Mitario> mpt, anyways, why would you want to check for updates if you can't install them :)
[05:05] <Mitario> mvo, ah, right
[05:06] <mvo> Mitario: a google summer of code student was working on that (a way to tell what users have root access)
[05:06] <daniels> rburton: new mesa thrown at the archive
[05:06] <Mitario> mvo, ah that's cool
[05:07] <pitti> mvo: a setuid wrapper would probably be the most reliable way
[05:07] <mpt> Mitario: Exactly the same applies to putting up the balloon.
[05:07] <mvo> Mitario: I was considering the "admin" group cheat, but I'm not sure if that works for everyone (i.e. people upgrading from warty to hoary to breezy)
[05:08] <mvo> pitti: do you know if there is work underway on this applicaton?
[05:08] <Mitario> mvo, people in the admin group don't nessesarily need to be sudoers
[05:09] <Mitario> mpt, hmm, there are 2 sides on that, say an employee gets that message, he could warn his sysadmin, on the other hand, you're right that the balloon shouldn't popup to a user without admin rights, but we need a method for that then :)
[05:09] <Mitario> anyhow, it is a bug yes
[05:10] <Mitario> or mac os x..
[05:10] <\sh> Mitario: updates? every user get the message that there r updates..(xp like ,-))
[05:11] <Mitario> ok, well /me thinks that's the best sollution
[05:11] <Mitario> say my mom gets that message, she can warn my dad that he should install the updates :)
[05:12] <mpt> as a non-admin I can run Software Update
[05:12] <pitti> mvo: no idea
[05:13] <Mitario> true, it might be interesting for a user to see the updates, probably not though
[05:13] <mpt> Presumably I'd get asked for an admin name and password when clicking "Install" (I can't test that because there are no updates available)
[05:13] <Mitario> right
[05:13] <Mitario> but since we don't have an adminstrator account in ubuntu
[05:13] <mpt> There isn't an administrator account in OS X either
[05:13] <Mitario> oh
[05:14] <ogra_> Mitario, os X uses sudo ;)
[05:14] <mpt> I said "an", not "the" :-)
[05:14] <Mitario> ogra_ ah right :)
[05:14] <mpt> Huh, that's interesting
[05:14] <mpt> as a non-admin I can set my own Software Update prefs
[05:14] <Mitario> anyways I think popping up at least the little red icon should be on by default
[05:14] <pitti> doko: if you don't count 2 minutes startup time and slow response as a bug, writer works here (shallowly tested)
[05:15] <pitti> doko: calc starts, too; anything I should test in particular?
[05:15] <Mitario> mvo, oh right, IMO you should change that 'never show again' message to 'hide ballon' or something
[05:15] <mpt> Mitario: Unfortunately a little red circle doesn't mean anything
[05:16] <Mitario> mpt: true, so just display the balloon for everyone :)
[05:16] <mvo> Mitario: it's meant as "never show again", if it is set, there will never be a ballon again
[05:16] <mpt> This whole balloon thing is ... unfortunate
[05:16] <Mitario> mvo, ok don't you think that's a little dangerous option to display on a balloon like this?
[05:16] <mpt> Imagine if roadsigns were designed that way
[05:17] <Mitario> i think the balloon thing rocks.. :)
[05:17] <mjg59> mvo: The balloon doesn't align properly if you have a vertical panel
[05:17] <Mitario> mvo, maybe just put an option 'Hide for now' or 'Warn me later' and put a 'never show balloons' option in g-s-p
[05:17] <doko> pitti: no, how many RAM do you have?
[05:17] <pitti> doko: 256 MB, G4 800 MHz
[05:17] <doko> ok ...
[05:17] <HiddenWolf> doko s/many/much
[05:18] <mvo> mjg59: I suspected it, it's a bug in notification-daemon
[05:18] <pitti> doko: the previous versions weren't faster, if you mean that
[05:18] <mjg59> mvo: Ok. Should I file a bug?
[05:18] <doko> pitti: but I assume it waits on something network related.
[05:18] <fabbione> doko: 14092 -> Component linux <- Assignto: ben.collins@ubuntu.com . kthxbye
[05:18] <doko> pitti: does the machine show some load?
[05:18] <pitti> doko: no, just heavy I/O load
[05:18] <pitti> doko: yep, mostly I/O, also much cpu
[05:18] <mvo> mjg59: yes, please assign it to notification-daemon and to me and a screenshot would be cool as well.
[05:19] <doko> swapping?
[05:19] <pitti> doko: it's just normally loading all the stuff
[05:19] <fabbione> doko: did you do the test i told you? or do we need to go trough them one by one?
[05:19] <doko> pitti: I can only test with >= 1GB :-)
[05:19] <pitti> doko: that slowliness was just bitching, never mind :-)
[05:19] <mjg59> doko: You can boot with mem=256M
[05:19] <doko> fabbione: what's up? we went throught the procedure
[05:20] <doko> mjg59: psst ...
[05:20] <fabbione> doko: i did ask you to try older kernels and to see the mouse options in the kernel doc, because the wheel works fine here
[05:20] <doko> fabbione: I don't have an older kernel yet. It's on my list
[05:21] <fabbione> doko: ok.
[05:21] <fabbione> doko: anyway i am not the owner of kernel stuff anymore. Just assign the bugs to linux and the form will be automagically filled for you :)
[05:22] <mvo> Mitario: ok, agreed
[05:23] <mvo> mpt: so what can we do about the issue for breezy? 
[05:23] <doko> fabbione: I just wanted to give you a chance bitching around :-) 
[05:24] <mpt> mvo: Is the amisudoerornot.com code going to show up in time?
[05:24] <ogra_> isnt that already in ?
[05:25] <ogra_> its .org btw ;)
[05:25] <mvo> mpt: probably not, we are in pretty deep freeze already, seb128 knows more. assuming it would, what would you suggest to do? hiding the icon complettly for non-sudoers?
[05:26] <ogra_> as i understood him, its already in, but all sudoers .desktop files need a add on...
[05:27] <ogra_> i'd really love to see it in edubuntu... 
[05:27] <ogra_> and thus ubuntu first :)
[05:27] <mpt> mvo: Ideally, (1) don't use an icon at all (if you need to point a balloon at an icon, the icon was the wrong design in the first place)
[05:28] <lukas_> daniels, may I ping you about http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12716 ? We two have this problem, and don't know how to help fixing that ...
[05:28] <mpt> mvo: (2) open the Update Manager when updates are available, and not otherwise
[05:28] <mvo> ogra_: it's in, but it just checks for the admin group right now
[05:28] <ogra_> oh... i thought it checks for some magical line in the .desktop file too
[05:28] <mpt> mvo: and (3) default to it opening daily/weekly for sudoers and not at all for others (though they can turn it on if they want)
[05:28] <mpt> s/opening/checking/
[05:29] <ogra_> mpt, opening once a week like hitting you right in the face without asking ? i'd prefer a icon...
[05:29] <mpt> ogra_: oh, and (4) make it not take focus when it opens :-)
[05:30] <ogra_> but still it hangs around on my desktop without being asked to do so... even if it doesnt takje focus, your windowlist entry will flash...
[05:30] <mpt> Having a balloon pop up in front of my work, with a hyperlink (!) I might click by mistake to turn off update checking permanently, would be more annoying to me than a window opening in the background
[05:31] <mvo> mpt: I'm still not happy with just opening a window that I have not asked for (even if it does not steal focus), I'll try to get at least (3) implemented (if technically possible) for breezy
[05:31] <mvo> mpt: this is a misunderstanding, the icon will stay, just the ballon will not shown again 
[05:31] <mvo> mpt: but I see that the wording of the the baloon is "unfortunate", it will change
[05:33] <mpt> mvo: The problem you're trying to solve is that people don't install updates. Therefore the solution needs to be one where the easiest option is to click a button that installs the updates, not one where the easiest option is to click something that makes the notification go away.
[05:34] <mvo> mpt: I agree, the link will be changed to show the updates by default now 
[05:35] <mvo> mpt: don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for your review
[05:36] <Mitario> hmm, kov aggreed, going to send a patch soon :)
[05:36] <mvo> Mitario: cool!
[05:36] <Mitario> will go for breezy+1 of course, but ooh wel
[05:36] <Mitario> at least it's in debian then :)
[05:37] <mpt> mvo: Does that mean I'm still allowed to comment on the Language Selector? :-)
[05:37] <mvo> mpt: sure :)
[05:37] <Mitario> haha :)
[05:37] <ogra_> lol
[05:37] <mpt> I haven't actually seen it yet, but I hear tell it refers to "inputs"
[05:38] <mvo> mpt: tomorrow is interface freeze ...
[05:38] <mvo> mpt: I will do you a screenshot, give me a second
[05:39] <doko> Mithrandir: did you notice, that on amd64 in the OOo2 menus the background is drawn in the wrong color when the menu is selected?
[05:39] <daniels> lukas_: no huge ideas over at my side, no
[05:40] <ryanthiessen> why not "tools" instead of "input" ?
[05:40] <lukas_> hm, thanks anyway, daniels. I'll surely report if the state changes.
[05:40] <mvo> mpt: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/language-selector.png
[05:41] <lukas_> and eagerly watching each new xorg-changelog-entry :)
[05:42] <thoreauputic> can someone please kick spunk in #ubuntu?
[05:42] <bddebian> spunk? :-)
[05:42] <thoreauputic> his nick
[05:42] <thoreauputic> :)
[05:43] <mpt> mvo: "writting" should be "writing"
[05:43] <mpt> mvo: When does this appear, exactly?
[05:43] <ogra_> mjg59, the only thing i can get working from g-p-m's context menu is hibernate, did you implement shutdown/reboot as well ? should it work ? 
[05:44] <Diziet> +    /* Some architectures have special alignment requirements for jmpbuf. */
[05:44] <Diziet> Does anyone know if that's true for ppc ?
[05:44] <mvo> mpt: thanks, you click on System/Administration/Language Selector
[05:45] <Mithrandir> doko: no, I don't use ooo :-)
[05:45] <mjg59> ogra_: Shutdown and reboot need to be implemented in pmi
[05:45] <mjg59> Once they are, it should work
[05:45] <ogra_> mjg59, oh, i thought it already does that
[05:45] <ogra_> ok
[05:46] <mjg59> ogra_: pmi just needs shutdown/reboot things. Though TBH, I think we probably don't want those on the GPM menu
[05:46] <ogra_> nope
[05:47] <ogra_> mjg59, g-p-m has a --no-actions option, we should start it with that... yu can manually hibernate through the logout dialog, thats enough
[05:47] <mjg59> Ok
[05:47] <mjg59> At the moment it's handy for testing
[05:47] <ogra_> yup
[05:50] <elmo> mjg59: we don't support .commands files, I'm afraid
[05:50] <mpt> mvo: (1) I suggest changing the intro text to "Choose which languages should be available to people using this system."
[05:51] <mpt> mvo: (2) Rename "Translation" to "Translations" and "Inputs" to "Spelling"
[05:52] <mjg59> elmo: You don't? Ah, right.
[05:52] <mjg59> An upload hung part-way though
[05:52] <mvo> mpt: thanks, (1) fixed
[05:52] <mjg59> s/though/through/
[05:52] <mpt> mvo: (3) Move the explanatory text underneath the list, and have it say: "Translations include menus, dialogs, and help. Spelling includes dictionaries and grammar checkers. Some translations may not be available for some languages."
[05:52] <mvo> mpt: (2) also contains stuff like input methods for chinese etc, so I guess that may be a bit misleading
[05:52] <mpt> mvo: (2) oh, excellent. In that case it can be "Writing Aids".
[05:53] <ogra_> elmo, ta :-D
[05:53] <mvo> mpt: (2) "Input" -> "Writing Aids" in the caption?
[05:53] <janimo> elmo, please sync wmaker from sid, thanks
[05:53] <mpt> so (3) "... Writing Aids include spelling dictionaries, grammar checkers, and IMEs."
[05:54] <elmo> mjg59: for now, just invoke me (or kamion/mdz as a fallback)
[05:54] <ogra_> janimo, who approved that sync ? 
[05:54] <janimo> it's universe
[05:54] <ogra_> janimo, UVF still applies 
[05:55] <janimo> mdz, said in principle universe is still ok, at least a week ago he said that
[05:55] <siretart> janimo: you still need approval from ogra or an delegate ;)
[05:55] <janimo> if particular packages are asked for, not en-masse
[05:55] <ogra_> janimo, i'm fine with approiving it as long as it fixes a ftbfs or something
[05:55] <janimo> ok, ogra then please approve :)
[05:55] <ogra_> janimo, rationaly please
[05:55] <xhaker> can someone help me about a gnome applet? i'm developing it and i can't manage to make it work in transparent panels
[05:55] <ogra_> rationale even
[05:56] <janimo> no ftbfs just a bugreport from a friend who uses 0.91
[05:56] <janimo> and upstream 0.92 fixes it
[05:56] <janimo> something to do with windows not maximized after reloggin into session
[05:56] <siretart> janimo: which bugreport
[05:56] <janimo> sorry for being vague
[05:56] <janimo> unoffcial bugreport he just told me on IM  half an hour ago :)
[05:57] <janimo> I'll ask him to file one if it's necessary
[05:57] <janimo> oh well
[05:57] <ogra_> janimo, crasher ? 
[05:57] <janimo> no, annoyer
[05:57] <ogra_> janimo, please do so
[05:57] <mpt> mvo: Does setting a language as "System default" automatically install it if it wasn't installed?
[05:57] <mvo> mpt: wording is fixed for (3). moving it down is easy enough, but it moves the text very close to the "System default" combo box. do you think that's ok? I will do another screenshot with the new version
[05:57] <ogra_> janimo, i told you that you need approval already
[05:57] <elmo> ogra: if you want me to apply UVF to universe pls let me know who can approve them
[05:57] <mvo> mpt: no, it will only list already installed languages
[05:57] <ogra_> janimo, ... about two weeks ago iirc
[05:58] <ogra_> elmo, didnt mdz and Kamion tell you ? 
[05:58] <xhaker> by the way.. GAIM is crashing when connecting to the googleTalk jabber server
[05:58] <janimo> ogra_, I tought if a motu asks for a sync it means he'll take care of that package
[05:58] <ogra_> elmo, they told me... with the addition that it can be handled more loosely but still needs approval
[05:58] <janimo> that's implicit
[05:59] <janimo> I am not just going around asking random syncs
[05:59] <ogra_> janimo, its only a additional checkup ... 
[05:59] <janimo> it's my time too
[05:59] <elmo> ogra: no, no one's told me
[05:59] <mpt> mvo: the gap between the explanation and the menu should be greater than that between the explanation and the listbox ... I'm sure the HIG has guidelines for that
[05:59] <ogra_> elmo, thats odd, i'll talk to mdz then
[05:59] <xhaker> i noticed the update for Gaim, but it still crashes.
[05:59] <mpt> mvo: Would it be accurate to rename the menu to "Initial language for new accounts:"? What else does the system default do?
[06:00] <elmo> ogra: ... ?  I just need to know who can approve them for universe
[06:00] <ogra_> elmo, Kamion was very strict in his words
[06:00] <ogra_> elmo, me and dholbach, \sh, siretart and ajmitch are delegates
[06:00] <mvo> mpt: it's the default language in the login screen for example
[06:00] <elmo> ogra: ok
[06:00] <mpt> The login screen has a language?
[06:01] <mpt> oh, right
[06:01] <ogra_> elmo, but its still odd that nobody told you... 
[06:01] <siretart> elmo: do you prefer sync requests by irc or mail?
[06:01] <mvo> mpt: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/l-s-2.png
[06:01] <mjg59> elmo: Oh, I've got a workaround for the nx6125
[06:01] <elmo> siretart: irc is fine, but I may well miss it - always fallback to mail, if I don't reply reasonably promptly
[06:01] <mjg59> elmo: If it's booted with noapic nolapic as kernel options, it works much better
[06:01] <elmo> mjg59: neato
[06:01] <mpt> mvo: Excellent
[06:01] <mpt> mvo: "Translations", not "Translation"
[06:02] <elmo> mjg59: does yours do DMA on the hard drive?
[06:02] <mvo> mpt: ups, fixed, thanks
[06:02] <elmo> mjg59: and is laptop testing checking for that?
[06:03] <mpt> mvo: The explanation would probably work better all as one paragraph
[06:03] <mpt> mvo: Try "Default language:" instead of "System default:"
[06:03] <mjg59> elmo: Does in Breezy, doesn't in Hoary
[06:04] <mjg59> The driver doesn't support the hardware in Hoary
[06:04] <mpt> mvo: And then have an explanation under that, aligned with the left edge of the menu, saying "Used for new accounts and the login screen."
[06:04] <elmo> ok
[06:04] <mvo> mpt: thanks, one paragraph and "Default language" now
[06:06] <mpt> mvo: Finally, reduce the width of the window by about 30~40 percent ... It'll make lining up the checkboxes easier, and the menu look healthier
[06:06] <mdz> fabbione: did you have a chance to test the live cds?  those are the ones which were bad before
[06:07] <mdz> ogra_: what I said was that it was a MOTU decision and that you could apply UVF or not according to your needs
[06:07] <mpt> mvo: I have an apology to make ... I stuffed up suggestion (1)
[06:08] <mpt> mvo: I think just "Languages available to people using this system:" would be sufficient
[06:08] <ogra_> mdz, yes, and we decided to go with Kamions decision that approval is needed, but handled loosely
[06:08] <mpt> mvo: Then it would fit on a single line.
[06:08] <mpt> I think I'm done now. :-)
[06:08] <mdz> ogra_: Kamion's decision?
[06:08] <ogra_> mdz, Kamion was very straigt telling me we should respect UVF
[06:09] <ogra_> mdz, you then softened this a bit ...
[06:09] <mvo> mpt: ok, thanks
[06:09] <mvo> mpt: should be ready soon
[06:09] <mjg59> Ok. In the worse case scenario, we can add a DMI quirk to fix-up the 6125.
[06:09] <ogra_> mdz, but universe is in a very bad state, much worse then for hoary at this time... so approval makes sense if packages might break other packages
[06:10] <mpt> mvo: btw, how did you achieve that button layout in metacity?
[06:11] <mvo> mpt: the window has it's width because in the combo box is a entry like "English (United Kingdom of Great Britian and Nothern Ireland)" :/
[06:11] <mvo> mpt: you need to use gconf-editor to get it, but I really strongly dislike the default where close is _so_ near to maximize
[06:12] <mpt> mvo: Agreed, I was hoping that was a Breezy default I was seeing :-)
[06:12] <mvo> mpt: let's blame seb128 for it ;)
[06:12] <ogra_> mdz, have a minute for pm ? 
[06:13] <mpt> iz metazity boog
[06:14] <elmo> xhaker: please turn public away notification off
[06:16] <mvo> mpt: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/l-s-3.png
[06:16] <mjg59> elmo: Of course, X is still broken unless you disable acceleration
[06:16] <mpt> mvo: "menu" -> "menus"
[06:17] <mvo> mpt: fixed, thanks
[06:17] <mpt> mvo: "Writing Aids includes" -> "Writing Aids include"
[06:17] <elmo> mjg59: or use the binary goop?
[06:17] <mjg59> elmo: Possible
[06:17] <mvo> mpt: fixed
[06:17] <elmo> mjg59: ok
[06:17] <daniels> mjg59: what?
[06:17] <mjg59> daniels: On the nx6125. 
[06:17] <mpt> mvo: Make the explanation just as wide as the listbox (e.g. in that screenshot "available" should have fit on the second line, not the third)
[06:17] <daniels> mjg59: chipset?
[06:17] <mjg59> X300
[06:18] <mjg59> PCIE
[06:18] <mpt> mvo: "Use" -> "Used"
[06:18] <daniels> mjg59: gnnrgh
[06:18] <mjg59> Graphical corruption on the login splash, freezes part way through login unless you switch to the console
[06:18] <mpt> mvo: "Default language:" and "Languages available to people using this system:" should be the same font/weight
[06:18] <mpt> mvo: Other than that, it's looking excellent now, well done.
[06:18] <daniels> mjg59: i can't see why though ... it's not doing anything with the cp, obviously, just register banging.  it's a known quantity ... sigh.
[06:18] <Treenaks> mjg59: Three cheers for for PCIE
[06:19] <daniels> mjg59: i would _love_ to actually get one of those laptops.  i've been sitting around reading that they're broken for some time now (of course, adam's t42, which is a pcie x300, works), and no idea on what to do with any of it.
[06:19] <mjg59> T43, surely?
[06:19] <mpt> mvo: Is it not possible to have an option menu that is narrower than some of its options? (That's possible in Windows and Mac OS)
[06:19] <mjg59> T42 is PCI
[06:19] <daniels> mjg59: yeah, probably
[06:19] <mjg59> And a 9600
[06:19] <mvo> mpt: "Make the explanation just as wide as the listbox" looks very much like a gtk label layout problem to me, not sure how/easy hard it is to fix it
[06:19] <daniels> mjg59: t4something
[06:20] <mvo> mpt: checking that now
[06:20] <daniels> mjg59: it's definitely x300 (well, m300), and definitely pcie.
[06:20] <mjg59> Yeah, T43
[06:20] <mjg59> It probably doesn't help that this is amd64
[06:20] <daniels> mmm
[06:20] <daniels> if we could localise this to a 32/64 bit thing, that would help a lot.
[06:20] <mpt> mvo: It just looked to me like you hadn't made the explanation frame/box/gtkwhatsit as wide as the listbox, that's all
[06:21] <daniels> the vt switch fixing things is curious.  i wonder if it just got more picky about the order things are done in.
[06:21] <mjg59> daniels: Where's the list of individual acceleration bits, and I'll work out which bit is breaking it?
[06:21] <mjg59> daniels: Once I switch back, I can crash it when doing simple operations
[06:21] <mjg59> daniels: Oh, one obvious thing - when it draws rectangles, part of the bottom line is often missing
[06:22] <mjg59> And the mouse carries on moving for about a second after the rendering stops, then the entire machine hangs
[06:22] <daniels> http://cvs.freedesktop.org/xorg/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/xaa/xaaInitAccel.c?rev=1.7&view=markup
[06:23] <mjg59> daniels: They're in the driver section?
[06:23] <daniels> mjg59: i'd be looking at noscanlineimagewriterect in particular
[06:23] <daniels> mjg59: yesh
[06:23] <daniels> mjg59: hm, if rectangles are broken -- nosolidfillrect
[06:24] <mjg59> Ok
[06:24] <daniels>     {XAAOPT_DASHED_BRESENHAM_LINE,	"XaaNoDashedBresenhamLine",
[06:24] <daniels> 				OPTV_BOOLEAN,	{0}, FALSE },
[06:24] <daniels> woo useful
[06:24] <Treenaks> daniels: drivers _implement_ that?
[06:26] <daniels> Treenaks: some, yeah
[06:26] <Treenaks> daniels: I want them to hurry up with that new acceleration thing
[06:27] <daniels> Treenaks: exa will be in for 7.0; we should have radeon, sis, and probably nv for breezy.  maybe i810, but that'll more likely be in an external repo (p.u.c/~daniels or so) since jbarnes is having fun with offscreen memory management still.
[06:27] <highvoltage> hi. is there any documentation about ubuntu's build environment, and can I download it? or should I rather ask this in #ubuntu?
[06:28] <ogra_> highvoltage, define  build environment
[06:28] <ogra_> highvoltage, packages ? CDs ? 
[06:28] <Treenaks> pbuilder?
[06:28] <ogra_> greminate and seeds ? 
[06:28] <ogra_> germinate even
[06:28] <highvoltage> ogra_: i don't know really :) mdz said that ubuntu and debian has different "build environments", so i'd like to find out more about it.
[06:29] <bur[n] er> anyone know if liferea can accept feed:// protocol?
[06:29] <ogra_> highvoltage, hmm, i dont know what he means... i think we have different buildd setups and i doubt debian uses greminate and ssedlists
[06:29] <ogra_> seedlists even
[06:30] <Treenaks> ogra_: it doesn't
[06:30] <ogra_> highvoltage, so that might be the difference he refers to 
[06:30] <bur[n] er> it would be easy to integrate firefox with liferea feeds if it did... or for that matter, can we register feed:// somehow so that blam, straw, liferea, or whatever rss reader you use would work?
[06:30] <Treenaks> bur[n] er: no, inventing new uri schemes is annoying
[06:31] <Treenaks> bur[n] er: use MIME types instead
[06:31] <Treenaks> bur[n] er: http://infomesh.net/2001/09/urischemes/
[06:31] <mdz> highvoltage: if those are the words I used, there must have been more context ;-)
[06:31] <highvoltage> debian doesn't use seedlists? i thought that was the native way of configuring things in d-i?
[06:31] <bur[n] er> Treenaks: but rss feeds are sometimes html and firefox would try to render it instead of sending it to liferea
[06:31] <rtcm> I already asked on -motu but got no answer: I need to build a debug symbols enabled package (no other modifications) is there a standard debian flag to do it?
[06:31] <highvoltage> mdz: yes, I was asking you about the differences between ubuntu and debian. that's as much context as I can remember :)
[06:32] <Treenaks> bur[n] er: then fix the webserver
[06:32] <Treenaks> bur[n] er: to send out feeds with the proper mime type
[06:32] <mjg59> daniels: Hmm. It also dislikes showing me any stipples until I move the mouse
[06:32] <daniels> mjg59: er
[06:32] <mjg59> Oh, no, maybe not
[06:32] <mjg59> That might just be coincidence
[06:32] <bur[n] er> Treenaks: it's not my webserver to fix ;)
[06:33] <mdz> highvoltage: a "build environment" is all the stuff which influences the building of software or packages.  so it includes the compiler toolchain, library packages, etc.  these things differ between debian and ubuntu.
[06:33] <Treenaks> bur[n] er: no, but you can complain :)
[06:33] <bur[n] er> very true...
[06:33] <mdz> highvoltage: another kind of "build environment", as ogra described, would be "the facilities and processes we use for building packages", which would be the buildd network.  that is also different between debian and ubuntu.
[06:33] <highvoltage> mdz: ah, so that would refer to things like gcc, kernel version, etc?
[06:33] <daniels> mjg59: i wonder if it's related to any updates at all
[06:33] <bur[n] er> or i could just get in contact with teh livelines firefox extension and get them to support liferea ;)  or patch it myself
[06:34] <bur[n] er> thanks for the feedback Treenaks 
[06:34] <bur[n] er> :)
[06:34] <mdz> highvoltage: not the kernel, but definitely gcc and its dependencies
[06:34] <daniels> mjg59: i.e. if you kick some activity later, even drawing to an offscreen pixmap or something, if it shows
[06:34] <daniels> mjg59: could just be missing an accel->Sync()
[06:34] <highvoltage> mdz: ok. when you initially told me that, i interpreted it as "ubuntu has another process for building the distribution" (if that makes any sense)
[06:34] <highvoltage> mdz: ok. i understand. thanks for clearing up.
[06:35] <mjg59> daniels: Ok, got it
[06:35] <Diziet>  gp_do_exit(int exit_status)
[06:35] <Diziet>  {
[06:35] <Diziet> +    exit(exit_status);
[06:35] <Diziet>  }
[06:35] <Diziet> Joy.
[06:35] <daniels> mjg59: hm?
[06:35] <mdz> highvoltage: we have a different process for building the distribution, too
[06:35] <mjg59> daniels: XaaNoScreenToScreenCopy
[06:35] <mjg59> If I do that, it seems stable.
[06:36] <infinity> Diziet : Looks like a skeleton for "some day we may want some cleanup code in here" that never got filled in.
[06:36] <infinity> Diziet : Not uncommon, IME.
[06:36] <daniels> mjg59: boom.  thanks.
[06:37] <mjg59> daniels: Hang on, still making sure of that
[06:37] <mjg59> daniels: Ok. That fixes the hang, but there's still some graphical corruption. I'll figure out which one gets rid of that.
[06:38] <highvoltage> mdz: does ubuntu use the same tools? is it just the actual process that's different, or the methods too?
[06:39] <jdub> j^: ping
[06:39] <mjg59> daniels: NoSolidFillRect seems to fix the graphical corruption
[06:40] <daniels> mjg59: righty-ho.
[06:40] <daniels> mjg59: amd64, you say?
[06:40] <mdz> highvoltage: it depends on what part of the process you mean.  building a distribution is a large, abstract process
[06:42] <highvoltage> ok, i think i understand what you mean anyway.
[06:42] <mjg59> daniels: Yup
[06:42] <highvoltage> mdz: i'll get the motu guys to educate me more, then I'll bug you for more info ;)
[06:43] <daniels> mjg59: right, this'll take a little while to set up.  bear with me.
[06:48] <ogra> my DSL sucks
[06:54] <daniels> mjg59: http://amnesiac.heapspace.net/~daniels/radeon_driver.o -- i don't actually expect it to fix the problem, but it's worth a shot.
[06:55] <mjg59> daniels: Ok, hang on a mo
[06:56] <highvoltage> ogra_: less than my wireless, i'm sure :)
[06:56] <lathiat> mjg59: what problem, ooc
[06:56] <ogra> highvoltage, they changed the DSLAM unit in my headend last week, now it drops once an hour :(
[06:57] <mjg59> lathiat: Crashing X300 based system
[06:57] <ogra> highvoltage, ubuntu is built around its seeds, you can find the seedlists on http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/
[06:58] <mjg59> daniels: 404
[06:58] <ogra> s/around/from
[06:58] <highvoltage> ogra: ah thanks, something to investigate! :)
[06:58] <ogra> there is also a explanation how that works on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement
[06:59] <highvoltage> what is tocd3?
[06:59] <jsgotangco> the open cd?
[07:00] <mjg59> daniels: radeon_drv.o
[07:01] <daniels> mjg59: er yeah, that
[07:02] <\sh> *grmpf*
[07:02] <\sh> ping ogra
[07:02] <ogra> \sh, pong
[07:02] <mdz> daniels: so about the X server in breezy...
[07:02] <\sh> ogra: how did u get the tftpd-hpa working again?
[07:03] <ogra> \sh, install netkit-inetd before ;) its run by inetd
[07:03] <\sh> actually I can't test anything anymore because the tftp is not working anymore
[07:03] <daniels> mdz: been testing it in pbuilder, it's happy.  going to do upgrade tests, final polish on the xorg package, and then hopefully blast everything at the archive before I head to bed.
[07:03] <highvoltage> interesting.
[07:03] <mdz> daniels: you already checked it with debdiff?
[07:03] <\sh> ogra: *grmpf*
[07:03] <\sh> ogra: it is installed
[07:03] <mdz> daniels: I asked for a copy of the packages; are they uploaded somewhere?
[07:03] <mjg59> daniels: Looks much better
[07:04] <\sh> let me try again..can be..that it was started by init.d
[07:04] <\sh> bah
[07:04] <ogra> \sh, is in.tftpd in /etc/inetd.conf
[07:04] <\sh> ogra: yeah I know :) 
[07:04] <\sh> brb
[07:04] <daniels> mdz: not yet, because I'm still tweaking xorg; as discussed, there are filename changes (/usr/X11R6 -> /usr, *.o -> *.so)
[07:04] <mjg59> daniels: Some strange stuttering in the login sound, but no freeze
[07:04] <daniels> mjg59: it ... actually worked?
[07:04] <mdz> daniels: we agreed not to do /usr/X11R6 -> /usr
[07:04] <mjg59> daniels: Oh, no, hang on
[07:04] <mjg59> System/Preferences has drawn a hollow rectangle and then frozen
[07:05] <daniels> mjg59: \o/
[07:05] <mjg59> But the corruption seemed to have gone
[07:05] <seb128> mdz: freeze break request for gnome-screensaver. It's universe, the new version fixes some issues and luis would be happy to get if for the GNOME liveCD
[07:05] <daniels> mdz: i thought we'd agreed to do /usr/X11R6 -> /usr and then have it capable of loading old modules from /usr/X11R6
[07:05] <daniels> mjg59: wow-ee.
[07:05] <ogra> seb128, do it :)
[07:05] <mjg59> daniels: What was the difference?
[07:06] <mdz> daniels: then we misunderstood each other
[07:06] <Diziet> How would I go about getting a decision about what to do about gs-esp ?  The current version is completely nonfunctional on ppc.  I think the only practical solution is probably to update to espgs 8.15rc4 and then possibly even to track upstream's rc bugfixes.
[07:06] <ogra> seb128, as long as you dont want it in main immediately MOTU can approve it too :)
[07:06] <mdz> daniels: I thought you said that was an alternative to moving to /usr
[07:06] <seb128> no, it was defered
[07:06] <Diziet> I've had a go at debugging the problem, and tried reading diffs between 7.07.1 and 8.15rc4 but they're huge.
[07:06] <ogra> seb128, so sync it then :) 
[07:07] <mjg59> daniels: Ok, that driver fixes the corruption. NoScreenToScreenCopy fixes the crash.
[07:10] <daniels> mjg59: right
[07:11] <mvo> mpt: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/l-s-4.png
[07:11] <daniels> mjg59: uploading a new version
[07:11] <daniels> mdz: no; it was moving to /usr, but with the ability to load old drivers
[07:11] <mvo> mpt: if you are happy with it, I'll upload it 
[07:12] <daniels> mjg59: the difference was that we wait until the engine idles after solid fills and screen-to-screen copies now, which isn't technically necessary, but ... yeah.  sort of papering over cracks.
[07:12] <Diziet> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UpstreamVersionFreeze doesn't say who to contact.
[07:12] <seb128> Diziet: mdz
[07:12] <seb128> or Kamion but he's away this week
[07:12] <slomo> i'm currently doing slang2 transition... we have a package (python-slang) which only works with slang1 and is only needed by woody. woody and python-slang are the same upstream and upstream seems dead (2000 last release), in debian they have no maintainer... are these two candidates for morgue?
[07:13] <ogra> Diziet, for main mdz, for universe #ubuntu-motu
[07:13] <mjg59> daniels: Ok, let me know when to pull
[07:13] <ogra> s/mdz/mdz and Kamion
[07:13] <mdz> Diziet: is this about gs-esp?
[07:13] <daniels> mjg59: go
[07:14] <Diziet> mdz: Yes.
[07:14] <Diziet> Kamion's still away on honeymoon, isn't he ?
[07:14] <elmo> yes
[07:15] <ogra> until monday
[07:15] <Diziet> Nice to know I didn't fail to notice him arriving back :-).
[07:18] <Diziet> Attempting a full frontal assault on the bug feels like a waste of time; it's quite possible that gs-esp 7.07.1 is riddled with problems on ppc.
[07:18] <mjg59> daniels: No more stuttering sound, but still the freeze when I open the System/Preferences window
[07:18] <mjg59> s/window/menu/
[07:18] <Diziet> And it's known to work much better in the most recent version.  Shame it's an upstream release candidate of a new upstream-upstream.
[07:20] <daniels> mjg59: yeah, sounds about right
[07:20] <Diziet> mdz: ... ?
[07:20] <daniels> mjg59: can you please run from a remote host with -verbose 999, and it should spit out which ScreenToScreen functions it's entering and exiting
[07:20] <mjg59> daniels: Ok
[07:20] <Diziet> I can do a more proper writeup in email if that would be helpful.
[07:20] <mdz> Diziet: I'm in a meeting right now
[07:21] <mdz> Diziet: so yes, that would be better
[07:21] <Diziet> Ah, right.  Willdo.  I'll put it in my activity report and CC you for your attention.
[07:25] <mjg59> daniels: (EE) RADEON(0): FIFO timed out, resetting engine... and then hang
[07:26] <mjg59> Didn't get to the desktop
[07:26] <mjg59> It didn't seem to say anything about which functions it was entering and exiting
[07:27] <slomo> can somebody do a rebuild for mpeg2dec and libdv? this is needed for slang2 transition
[07:28] <mxpxpod> who is the main guy that makes decisions for ppc for ubuntu?
[07:30] <daniels> mjg59: agh
[07:30] <mjg59> daniels: I got 4 of those, preceded by a (EE) RADEON(0): Idle timed out, resetting engine...
[07:31] <daniels> mjg59: right.  so the engine is locked, hard.
[07:31] <mjg59> Yeah
[07:33] <janimo> daniels, what's the best way of working on breezy xorg code?Is there a baz archive?
[07:33] <daniels> janimo: not at the moment, no
[07:37] <rburton> daniels: awww, i was going to work on my ssh SI scheme
[07:39] <rburton> oh i say, dirac plugin for gstreamer
[07:39] <rburton> rock on
[07:39] <doko> mdz: didn't you want to build a live CD for amd64? I just see, that OOo2 is broken for amd64, as long as the ooo2-amd64 package is not updated
[07:40] <daniels> rburton: err, why don't you anyway?
[07:40] <mdz> doko: I did build a live CD for amd64
[07:40] <daniels> mjg59: /win 55
[07:40] <daniels> er
[07:40] <rburton> daniels: yeah i should have a go really
[07:40] <mpt> mvo: Sorry, I was at lunch
[07:41] <mjg59> daniels: Win!
[07:42] <mpt> mvo: Still (1) "Writing Aids includes" should be "Writing Aids include", (2) "Use" should be "Used", and (3) the two control labels should use the same font weight. Other than that, it's great.
[07:42] <mpt> mvo: Oh, and "Translation" should be "Translations"
[07:44] <daniels> mjg59: new debugariffic version coming over that should tell you what it's doing at the time
[07:44] <mvo> mpt: thanks, I was sure I fixed that, (me grumbles about glade)
[07:45] <mjg59> daniels: Rock
[07:45] <daniels> mjg59: go
[07:48] <mpt> mvo: btw, what happens if you uncheck the "Translations" checkbox for the default language?
[07:48] <mjg59> (**) RADEON(0): About to leave SubsequentSolidFill (synced)
[07:48] <mjg59> (**) RADEON(0): WaitForIdle (entering): 64 entries, stat=0x00000140
[07:48] <mjg59> (**) RADEON(0): WaitForIdle (entering): 64 entries, stat=0x8410c140
[07:49] <mvo> mpt: nothing. I need to leave for dinner now, I'll bb in ~30min
[07:49] <mjg59> Then a pile of "select returned 1" and "select returned 0"s, followed by "Idle timed out", and then "Fifo timed out" and crash
[07:50] <mjg59> daniels: ^
[07:50] <daniels> mjg59: yeah
[07:51] <lathiat> seb128: could we get a separator between system tools and add/remove programs, it would look much nicer
[07:51] <daniels> mjg59: i have a rough idea where it is that's going wrong now, but need to crash
[07:54] <seb128> lathiat: no opinion on it, did the 2.10 version had one for the "run app" ?
[07:55] <lathiat> seb128: yes
[07:55] <Diziet> mdz: YHM
[07:55] <seb128> lathiat: I've to go now, we will talk later about this
[07:55] <lathiat> seb128: okie
[08:02] <mdz> Diziet: I think that a new upstream gs-esp could greatly improve the current printing situation
[08:02] <mdz> Diziet: however, I'm unimpressed by its bug list in 
[08:02] <mdz> Debian
[08:02] <mdz> the new release seems to have major regressions
[08:02] <mdz> it hasn't even made it into testing yet
[08:07] <Diziet> Yers.
[08:09] <Diziet> Most of the bugs there are against 7.07.1 of one kind or another.
[08:20] <sedak> when a bug has a UPSTREAM status in bugzilla and that there is a new version that fix the bug, what do we do to make the responsible for that package know ?
[08:20] <sedak> the bug is assigned to seb128 now btw
[08:42] <mdz> Diziet: I'm talking about the grave and serious bugs, which are all new
[08:43] <ogra> mdz, so whats your word on mediawiki, pitti approved it in the end, but he wasnt happy to do it... we'll need it for wikipedia support in edubuntu...
[08:43] <{Seb}> i am correct in saying NetworkManager is broken?
[08:43] <mdz> ogra: pitti changed his mind?
[08:44] <ogra> janew and i convinced him, he didnt know about its importance for us
[08:44] <ogra> mdz, he still thinks its not good... thats why i want a last word from you about it
[08:45] <ogra> mdz, since you were involved in the process that brought us here...
[08:45] <mdz> ogra: in london we decided that mediawiki was what the community wanted
[08:45] <mdz> ogra: but that's orthogonal to whether it's supportable
[08:45] <ogra> mdz, exactly and we committed to have it if any possible
[08:45] <mdz> I'd like to hear pitti's comments on it, especially if he changed his mind since we last talked
[08:46] <mdz> ogra: I also think it's a bit late to add new complex applications to edubuntu; it's time to focus on stabilizing the preview release
[08:46] <mdz> ogra: do the daily CDs work?
[08:46] <ogra> mdz, it looks very  odd for me that we will ship completely different stuff from what we commited...
[08:46] <ogra> mdz, nope...
[08:47] <mdz> ogra: working CDs are top priority
[08:47] <mdz> whether or not they contain mediawiki
[08:47] <HiddenWolf> ogra, it's better to ship something that works partially, rather than something that's great and feature-complete, but buggy, right?
[08:47] <ogra> i didnt test todays, the last one i tested still suffered from libcairo stuff (mondays)
[08:48] <janimo> lamont ping
[08:48] <ogra> HiddenWolf, its odd to have told your users you dont like their software selection but will support it, and in the end you ship what you suggested first...
[08:48] <ogra> it feels like cheating the user i dont feel good about it
[08:49] <doko> mdz: any word on the OOo2 update to milestone 125? just to know, if Mithrandir should build the amd64 package for m121, or the m125
[08:49] <mdz> doko: I'm installing it right now
[08:49] <HiddenWolf> ogra, agreed, but at least you'll ship something workable...
[08:49] <ogra> i.e. we all said we want moin, all users said they want mediawiki, we committed to that, but in the end we ship moin
[08:49] <doko> mdz: ok, I'm away for about two hours
[08:49] <lamont> janimo: si?
[08:49] <ogra> its not that mediawiki isnt workable
[08:50] <janimo> lamont, eople.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/x/xfce4-panel/4.2.2-1ubuntu2/
[08:50] <ogra> its just hard to support security wise
[08:50] <janimo> any idea why only powerpc got rebuilt today?
[08:50] <mdz> doko: I am leaning toward including it if it feels good
[08:50] <janimo> manualintervention?
[08:50] <mdz> doko: how much testing have you been able to do?
[08:50] <mdz> Mithrandir: an updated oo.o2-amd64 should target m125 since I think that is more likely
[08:52] <elmo> ogra: maybe we should make such hasty commitments in the future?
[08:52] <elmo> shouldn't too
[08:52] <lamont> janimo: so there's build logs there for all 4 architectures, ppc being the only successful one, and you need someone to read the logs and tell you why they failed???
[08:53] <ogra> elmo, it wasnt hasty ... there was a two day discussion
[08:53] <janimo> lamont, no it seems only powerpc got rebuilt today
[08:53] <mdz> it wasn't a commitment
[08:53] <mdz> it was a survey
[08:53] <mdz> if we ship something that we can't support properly, they lose AND we lose
[08:53] <lamont> janimo: that'd be because either it hadn't been tried before, or happened to be given back as part of something else.
[08:53] <mdz> if they really want it, they can always install it from universe
[08:54] <mdz> but they'll know what they're getting into
[08:54] <janimo> thanks
[08:54] <ogra> mdz, it caused the the expectation at the users that they'll be able to install wikipedia on whyt we ship
[08:54] <lamont> I'm betting it was infinity clearing up the buildds on ppc after some cleanup work there
[08:54] <mdz> ogra: that won't happen unless mediawiki is supportable
[08:54] <lamont> janimo: things with actual compile errors don't get automatically retried
[08:54] <ogra> mdz, ok, so should i resort to moin then and drop the inclusion report ?
[08:55] <mdz> ogra: have pitti mail me his thoughts about it
[08:55] <ogra> ok
[08:55] <mdz> ogra: and meanwhile concentrate on getting the CDs into shape
[08:55] <ogra> mdz, yup
[08:55] <janimo> lamont, looks like i386 and powerpc faild on the same thing (missing libpixmap)
[08:56] <janimo> I wonder why only powerpc got retried today (and what triggered the rebuild)
[08:56] <lamont> janimo: so what you really meant to ask from the start was 'please retry xfce4-panel on !ppc as well?'???
[08:56] <janimo> lamont, not really
[08:56] <Jhair> un
[08:56] <janimo> as I wasn't the one who made the latest changes to these
[08:57] <janimo> seb128 is did the cairo transitioning stuff
[08:57] <lamont> well, to answer your original question, it was retried on ppc because one of us gave it back to the buildd's manually
[08:57] <janimo> I just didn;t know what's happening and whether I should start fixing, wait on seb, the build system noticing etc
[08:58] <janimo> the whole thing is very obscure to me :(
[08:58] <janimo> but thanks you're always being helpful :)
[08:58] <Jhair> Consider the following in hoary: ubuntu-base depends on jfsutils, but I don't use the JFS filesystem, AFAIK I can't remove jfsutils without breaking ubuntu-base. Is this a bug?
[08:59] <martinald> hi guys
[08:59] <martinald> could someone take a look at bugs 13521 + 11237
[08:59] <martinald> and see if they are dupes?
[08:59] <dredg> Jhair:  Installed-Size: 1108
[08:59] <janimo> lamont I see the same with the other xfce4 cairo transed packages
[08:59] <dredg> are you that stuck for space?
[08:59] <janimo> do you know who did the manual giving back of these today, only on PPC?
[09:00] <lamont> and it was completely unrelated to xfce
[09:00] <Jhair> the point is: I don't use the package and I don't need it
[09:00] <jdub> mdz: we totally need to fix this unrequired shlibdeps mess for breezy+1
[09:00] <lamont> Jhair: that's a question for #ubuntu, but note that ubuntu-base delvivers no files, just a bunch of dependencies...
[09:00] <mdz> why is there a linux32_1-3_i386.deb?
[09:00] <jdub> yo lamont 
[09:00] <jdub> lamont: how's new gig?
[09:01] <lamont> Jhair: that is, all you'll possibly break removing ubuntu-base is upgrades to the next release
[09:01] <lamont> jdub: hectic as usual
[09:01] <mdz> jdub: that is easily a 2+ release cycle kind of project
[09:01] <jdub> mdz: suckage
[09:01] <jdub> all this transition mess sucks up so much time :|
[09:01] <lamont> jdub: otoh, starting to fix it in breezy+1 would be goodness
[09:02] <lamont> jdub: have you seen http://www.arouse.net/despair-linux/ubuntu.jpg
[09:02] <mdz> martinald: no, they are not
[09:02] <elmo> jdub: eh, doko has it mostly scripted
[09:02] <janimo> lamont I got a list of xfce packages that would need a manual kick on the rest of the arch 
[09:02] <jdub> lamont: haha, yeah - i prefer the mandrake one though
[09:02] <janimo> can I send it to you by mail?
[09:02] <elmo> it's nothing like as painful in ubuntu as it is in e.g. debian
[09:02] <lamont> sure
[09:03] <janimo> lamont at ubuntu com?
[09:03] <lamont> sure
[09:03] <mdz> martinald: #11237 affects Hoary, while #13521 is an initramfs-tools issue (which only exists in breezy)
[09:03] <martinald> ok
[09:03] <jdub> elmo: doko's unruly use of perl does not count ;)
[09:03] <elmo> jdub: seb used the same script for cairo-in-main ...
[09:03] <elmo> and doko used it for C++.. so however distasteful you find it, it does work
[09:04] <martinald> mdz: is this info in 11237 applicable to the other?
[09:04] <dredg> what qualifies as 'unruly use of perl'?
[09:04] <jdub> elmo: joke re: python policy
[09:04] <mdz> martinald: your comment in 11237 is actually about 13521
[09:04] <jdub> elmo: but the point is, it is mostly unnecessary in the first place
[09:04] <martinald> right, thought so
[09:04] <elmo> jdub: in a handwavy theoretical "wouldn't it be nice if the less people went to war" sort of way :-P
[09:04] <ogra> jdub, MOTU rather lies down crying :/
[09:05] <jdub> dredg: in this case, it's a joke about our policy of using python
[09:05] <dredg> jdub: ah, gotcha
[09:05] <\sh> ogra: what r we doing?
[09:05] <jdub> elmo: it's not theoretical. if packages weren't unnecessarily depending on libcairo directly, we wouldn't have to transition so much
[09:05] <martinald> mdz: is there any info i can provide you with about 13521 that would help?
[09:06] <jdub> for many values of 'libcairo'
[09:06] <martinald> it would be nice to have this so i could take screenshots of breezy for documentation ;)
[09:06] <jdub> C++ ABI pukeshots are a different beast
[09:06] <ogra> \sh <jdub> all this transition mess sucks up so much time :|
[09:06] <ogra> \sh, * jdub fears MOTU uprising
[09:06] <highvoltage> elmo: hi elmo.
[09:06] <mdz> martinald: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13521#c1
[09:06] <\sh> ogra: oh...I think slang2 we can remove from the list..slomo rocked today
[09:06] <mdz> martinald: the person working on the bug already asked for more information
[09:06] <ogra> \sh, <ogra> jdub, MOTU rather lies down crying :/
[09:06] <jdub> ogra: large scale MOTU nervous breakdown would be preferable to an uprising, but still very depressing ;)
[09:07] <highvoltage> elmo: did you get the gpg signed ssh public key?
[09:07] <martinald> ok, sure
[09:07] <dredg> just give me a month or so
[09:08] <ogra> jdub, we are significantly more people for breezy, but the transitions sucked up all MOTU blood...
[09:08] <ogra> jdub, i fear that breezy universe will be far worse then hoary
[09:08] <jdub> yeah
[09:09] <elmo> highvoltage: which address did you send it to?
[09:09] <\sh> ogra: I told you the last time...breezy will be a off road release...
[09:09] <highvoltage> elmo: i'll check...
[09:09] <ogra> jdub, that means our ressources will be sucked up by fixing the remaining breakage for breezy+1 which is as worse as the transition this time
[09:10] <ogra> and will draw as much time
[09:10] <highvoltage> elmo: james@canonical.com, 06/08/2005
[09:10] <highvoltage> elmo: 13:19 +2 GMT
[09:10] <elmo> k, looking
[09:11] <elmo> highvoltage: gpg --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com --send-key 0x6CBF29D6
[09:12] <highvoltage> elmo: ok
[09:12] <highvoltage> elmo: done
[09:28] <Mithrandir> mdz: updating ooo2-amd64 isn't much work when the version to update to is in the archive, so just say when.
[09:30] <hawk_78> hello, I'm a Summer of Code student...
[09:31] <hawk_78> I've just finished the PythonModulePackaging:
[09:32] <hawk_78> a tool to build deb packages out of standard python modules.
[09:32] <hawk_78> I'm looking for someone to have a look at it.
[09:33] <hawk_78> I also need help for publishing and licensing.
[09:36] <siretart> hawk_78: out of interest, do you produce binary or source packages?
[09:38] <slomo> does debian has some kind of archive were one can get older versions of packages?
[09:39] <siretart> slomo: yepp. http://snapshot.debian.net
[09:39] <siretart> sometimes I'd wish we had something similar for ubuntu..
[09:39] <slomo> siretart: thanks :)
[09:41] <elmo> morgue.ubuntu.com
[09:41] <elmo> it's just run out of space, so out of date
[09:41] <siretart> ah. that explains..
[09:42] <ploum> Hello
[09:42] <\sh> elmo: ping...why is libdv in main and the binaries in universe? do u know? :)
[09:42] <ploum> Am I the only one for wich the epiphany icon disappeared in the "Internet" menu ?  Must I fill a bug ?
[09:43] <elmo>  libdv-bin |    0.103-2 | breezy/universe | amd64, hppa, i386, ia64, powerpc, sparc
[09:43] <elmo>     libdv4 |    0.103-2 |        breezy | amd64, hppa, i386, ia64, powerpc, sparc
[09:43] <elmo> libdv4-dev |    0.103-2 |        breezy | amd64, hppa, i386, ia64, powerpc, sparc
[09:43] <elmo>      libdv |    0.103-2 |        breezy | source
[09:43] <\sh> ah only the bin files..
[09:43] <elmo> \sh: libdv-bin isn't seeded  and nothing depends on it
[09:43] <\sh> elmo: thx :)
[09:45] <HeMan> Hi! How often does packages.ubuntu.com update?
[09:45] <elmo> highvoltage: you seemed to flip/flip on the username; which is it to be?  jono or jonathan? :)
[09:46] <HeMan> I installed a package (python2.4-opengl) but it doesn't contain the files packages.ubuntu.com suggests
[09:46] <HeMan> (yes, breezy)
[09:49] <highvoltage> elmo: jonathan will be fine, thanks :)
[10:03] <teprrr> hmm, there's no apt-front (dev) packages in ubuntu at all?!
[10:04] <mvo> teprrr: you will have to build it from svn
[10:05] <teprrr> mvo, hmm. is there some reason why it isn't included?
[10:06] <mvo> teprrr: it's under heavy development and the abi/api changes quite often (also I'm not sure if that is still the case, but it was some weeks ago)
[10:07] <teprrr> mvo, ah. okay..
[10:07] <highvoltage> elmo: /win 13
[10:07] <teprrr> what happened to GL/glx.h and other glx dev files?
[10:07] <highvoltage> sorry
[10:07] <mvo> teprrr: building from svn should be straightforward
[10:08] <teprrr> yeah, just wanted to test adept, but it's not that important.. just thought why there's no such thing
[10:09] <mvo> teprrr: IIRC mournfall wanted to link libapt-front statically against ept
[10:09] <teprrr> oh
[10:10] <mvo> teprrr: at least at the beginning
[10:12] <teprrr> mvo, okay.. now it's just how to compile kde without libtool and where's those missing gl(x) headers
[10:13] <mvo> teprrr: the joy of the x-transition :) maybe you need libgl1-mesa-dev?
[10:14] <teprrr> The following packages will be REMOVED:
[10:14] <teprrr>   libgl1-xorg libgl1-xorg-dev libgl1-xorg-dri
[10:14] <teprrr> :)
[10:16] <HeMan> how could i look in a .deb-file without installing it?
[10:17] <Mithrandir> dpkg -c and -I
[10:18] <HeMan> Mithrandir: thanks
[10:18] <teprrr> btw, should wajig search for packages from packages.ubuntu.com instead of packages.debian.org?
[10:26] <doko> mdz: most of my OOo2 testing is limited to starting the applications, loading old documents, scrolling, editing a bit. These docs are M*word/excel/ppoint docs from old projects. I didn't see any obvious regressions. Spent about 1 1/2-2 hours testing. I didn't test powerpc, but pitti did basic tests and couldn't find obvious regressions
[10:27] <doko> jdub: the zope* uploads are real work, done by kobold, one of our SoC students
[10:28] <jdub> doko: hrm?
[10:32] <doko> jdub: no perl work :-)
[10:33] <jdub> doko: oh - nah, we were talking about general transition stuff
[10:33] <jtan325> in cvs, how do you de-remove a file that's been scheduled to be removed?
[10:34] <jtan325> (assuming you haven't actually committed yet)
[10:38] <jdub> doko: hmm, what does OOo use portaudio for?
[10:39] <Mithrandir> jdub: making noise during presentations, I presume.
[10:39] <jdub> can it use anything else?
[10:39] <doko> jdub: sound for presentations ...
[10:39] <louie> ooo: pissing in the swamp since 1999
[10:39] <louie> ;)
[10:42] <jdub> so annoying!
[11:29] <seb128> doko: do you need cairo/glitz?
[11:30] <seb128> doko: the Debian maintainer has built cairo 1.0 without it: "* Removed glitz backend as currently experimental and unsupported"
[11:31] <elmo> oh man
[11:31] <doko> seb128: no, I will not enable that for the next OOo2 upload (pending mdz's ok)
[11:33] <seb128> k
[11:36] <mdz> doko: new ooo2 looks good to me
[11:36] <mdz> doko: let's do it
[11:41] <doko> mdz: fine :)
[11:43] <doko> mdz, elmo: please reply to the OOo2 help topic I sent you via email. the bonus side would be having it for translations in rosetta as well, and hope it's buildable for breezy+1
[11:44] <mdz> doko: I don't think that having oo.o2 help in multiverse only is worth the effort of creating that package
[11:44] <mdz> doko: can we not pre-generate the help?  what is its license?
[11:47] <doko> mdz: the license would allow that. but we would need the sun classes for generating that help. it would be less maintainance work to put that package in mutiverse, but I would prefer putting the help into main as well, if we can put the pregenerated help in a package in main.
[11:48] <mdz> doko: if the license allows it, I prefer to have the pregenerated help in main
[11:49] <doko> fine, preparing that one next week
[11:49] <mdz> doko: perhaps the oo.o2 source package could have a build target which generates the help and wraps it in a source package?
[11:49] <mdz> then it would be easy to keep up to date
[11:49] <doko> mdz: exactly, same thing as we do with the -l10n package now
[11:50] <mdz> oh, I haven't looked at the -10n stuff. :-)
[11:50] <mdz> doko: mark says you expect to be able to have oo.o2 in rosetta for breezy
[11:50] <doko> it's basically: rename the package, rebuild the control file, add the rosetta translations, rebuild
[11:52] <jdub> boh, no seb
[11:52] <doko> mdz: yes, we export the language data, it can be converted, I'm waiting for some tests with rosetta. I agreed now to reduce the number of po files from 36 to below 10
[11:53] <jdub> mdz: permission to upgrade djvulibre by one micro version, required by evince?
[11:54] <jdub> (otherwise, it could happily drop into universe if we remove the build-dep)
[11:54] <mdz> jdub: if nothing other than evince uses it, yes
[11:54] <elmo> nothing in the whole archive other than evince does
[11:54] <elmo> (which is kind of amusing)
[11:55] <jdub> and itself :)
[12:01] <jdub> seb128: just asked mdz if i could upgrade djvu (micro+1) for evince
[12:01] <jdub> seb128: also, mind if i turn on a few of the other evince backends?
[12:02] <doko> jdub: no glitz :)
[12:03] <seb128> jdub: that was on my list when I've read the changes for new djvulibre package this morning, thanks :)
[12:03] <Keybuk> ah yes, the return of the dpi bugs
[12:03] <seb128> jdub: is he ok ?
[12:03] <seb128> Keybuk: GTK 2.8.2 coming within 2 hours, don't worry
[12:03] <seb128> (upstream already here, but I've to sort cairo first and then package it)
[12:04] <seb128> jdub: what other options do you want to turn?