[02:01] <JaneW> hi
[02:01] <ogra_ltsp> hi
[02:01] <jamey> hi
[02:02] <JaneW> ***Reminder*** Edubuntu Dev Update Meeting starting now
[02:02] <ogra_ltsp> i'd like to point out that my DSL drops from time to time...
[02:02] <JaneW> jelkner was going to be joiniung us...
[02:02] <ogra_ltsp> so i might have to reconnect during the meeting...
[02:02] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: ok
[02:02] <ogra_ltsp> so lets wait some minutes
[02:02] <JaneW> ok 3 mins
[02:03] <JaneW> hi jelkner 
[02:03] <JaneW> we were waiting for you
[02:03] <JaneW> hello flint
[02:03] <flint> hi Jane...
[02:04] <JaneW> are we all here now?
[02:04] <flint> No.
[02:04] <jelkner> hi JaneW, i'm not late, am i?
[02:04] <flint> I mean metaphorically
[02:04] <JaneW> flint: are you ever? ;)
[02:04] <flint> ...excellent point
[02:04] <JaneW> jelkner: no not really (3 mins)
[02:04] <flint> :^)
[02:05] <JaneW> ok ogra_ltsp hit it
[02:05] <jelkner> sorry, it won't happen again!
[02:05] <JaneW> give us lots of good news ...
[02:05] <ogra_ltsp> shall i ? 
[02:05] <jelkner> well, paul is talking to you from and edubuntu workstation
[02:05] <flint> Jane elkner has me running from a "zimermaned" ubuntu LTSP server for this meeting!
[02:05] <flint> I feel so secure!
[02:05] <ogra_ltsp> i have one good and one bad news about edubuntu-desktop :)
[02:06] <ogra_ltsp> what do you want first ? 
[02:06] <jamey> the bad
[02:06] <ogra_ltsp> nvu wont be included
[02:06] <jamey> :O
[02:06] <jamey> the good?
[02:06] <ogra_ltsp> its refused by the security team
[02:06] <flint> Elkner was whinning about the art.   We thought that was the bad news...
[02:07] <JaneW> nvu?
[02:07] <ogra_ltsp> the good is, we are done.... the last package just got approved ;)
[02:07] <jamey> http://www.nvu.com/
[02:07] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: yay
[02:07] <jamey> it's a Dreamweaver-like application
[02:07] <ogra_ltsp> so from tomorrow on i dont need to do any work on this package anymore and it will be installable
[02:07] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: to be clear mediawiki is now IN right?
[02:07] <jelkner> ogra_ltsp: i have a question, what are we doing about light-weight desktop?
[02:07] <ogra_ltsp> JaneW, i'd like to hear mdz and sabdfl about the security issues
[02:08] <ogra_ltsp> ^^^mediawiki
[02:08] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, i have a SoC student... i'll create a package for universe these days
[02:08] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, he prepared a applist..
[02:08] <JaneW> jelkner: lightweightdesktop is a Google SoC bounty project
[02:09] <jelkner> excellent
[02:09] <jelkner> icewm or xfce?
[02:09] <ogra_ltsp> it wont make it to main for breezy though...
[02:09] <ogra_ltsp> icewm
[02:09] <jelkner> great!
[02:09] <JaneW> jelkner: so by definition not high priority or likely to land in Breexy
[02:09] <JaneW> Breezy
[02:09] <ogra_ltsp> we have another team working on a xfce metapackage, but that wont enter breezy it seems
[02:09] <jelkner> yes, but i'm going to want to run in my lab, so i would like to be involved in the testing process
[02:09] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: will you follow up with mdz and sabdfl later?
[02:09] <ogra_ltsp> JaneW, yup
[02:10] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: ok thanks
[02:10] <ogra_ltsp> so that about the -desktop package
[02:10] <JaneW> jelkner: out your name on the spec page as interested for testing
[02:10] <JaneW> put sorry
[02:11] <flint> oh i like out... it is so metro.
[02:11] <jelkner> or, if you all think it would be more helpful, i could start the year using gnome and report problems as the occure
[02:11] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: so what impact does nvu not being in have? Do we need something esle or are we ok without it?
[02:11] <ogra_ltsp> the server package is awaiting one review and a bit of tweakage for the moodle package, i'm confident we'll have it done this week
[02:11] <jelkner> and then make the switch when the problems are clearly identified
[02:11] <ogra_ltsp> oh, yes, nvu
[02:11] <jamey> how stable is the server package once installed?
[02:11] <ogra_ltsp> we have two options for a web editor in main
[02:12] <flint> if elkner were testing a model airplane he would fly it from here to Paris.
[02:12] <ogra_ltsp> jamey, i'm working with it currently (as my nick might suggest)
[02:12] <jamey> :-)
[02:12] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: are they good alternatives?
[02:12] <jamey> what kind of response does it give? (although that's completely dependent on the circumstances)
[02:12] <flint> What I worry about (some one needs to) is what kind of fallback is there in operation?
[02:12] <ogra_ltsp> so i'd hear some opinions for the web editor stuff
[02:12] <jelkner> bluefish
[02:12] <ogra_ltsp> we have quanta and screem... quanta is missing documentation..... screem is complicated to use imho
[02:13] <jelkner> (which is already there)
[02:13] <ogra_ltsp> bluefish is as good as using gedit i think...
[02:13] <ogra_ltsp> it just has some additions
[02:13] <flint> Elkner says he is less concerned about packages than base functionality.
[02:13] <JaneW> flint: users want packages though
[02:13] <flint> Then he goes down this bluefish rathole...
[02:13] <ogra_ltsp> ok, so i'd like to hear a vote or should we drop it to the ML ?
[02:14] <JaneW> flint: and pretty pictures
[02:14] <jelkner> the beginning of school is just around the corner
[02:14] <flint> Ya gotta have the logo and all that!
[02:14] <JaneW> jelkner: in the states...
[02:14] <jelkner> and software freedom day is right behind that
[02:14] <jelkner> (software freedom day is all over the world)
[02:14] <JaneW> jelkner: we are not tying ourselfs to the school year
[02:14] <flint> And then there is the Helgoland bite and the sudatenland....
[02:15] <ogra_ltsp> we are only tied to the release schedule for now...
[02:15] <JaneW> our release date is still geared for 13 Oct
[02:15] <jelkner> i understand, JaneW, but you realize that from a marketing point of view that is not good
[02:15] <ogra_ltsp> yup
[02:15] <JaneW> on that day a d/l version will be available
[02:15] <random003> evening all
[02:15] <flint> that is the distillation of what mdz said.
[02:15] <jelkner> flint and i are promoting edubuntu all over around here
[02:15] <JaneW> no CDs will be pressed at this time
[02:16] <jelkner> and we are having a good deal of success generating interest
[02:16] <ogra_ltsp> i'm pretty confident we'll have a good CD on the weekend... if ubuntu doesnt break our base again
[02:16] <jelkner> but we *are* tied to the school year
[02:16] <flint> we are toying with doing a limited run of the beta for SFD
[02:16] <JaneW> we agreed in a previous meeting to keep this launch relatively small, as we were having dev 'challenges '
[02:17] <ogra_ltsp> so any opinions for the web authoring ?
[02:17] <ogra_ltsp> before we move on ? 
[02:17] <eps> is this an official meeting or am I welcome to pitch in?
[02:17] <ogra_ltsp> eps, go ahead
[02:17] <JaneW> flint, elkner, you guys can offer support too, so punt away... but we have to becareful of pushing to communities who may battle to implement and get quickly disillusioned
[02:18] <flint> the innoculation effect - indeed!
[02:18] <eps> web authoring is what regard
[02:18] <JaneW> so we are not aiming for world domintaion on 13 Oct
[02:18] <eps> in*
[02:18] <ogra_ltsp> eps see above
[02:18] <flint> what? no blitz-software!
[02:18] <JaneW> but rather want to get entrenched with our enthusiasts and use them to test and troubleshoot and provide feedback to make Breezy+1 kick-ass
[02:19] <jelkner> JaneW: the problem is that the world is moving forward with or without us, so we need to do our best to stay with it
[02:19] <eps> ogra_ltsp, I came in late.  never mind :)
[02:19] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, the problem is that we cant do much wrt ubuntu breakages
[02:19] <jelkner> i've got local vendor who does IT support for non-profits interested in LTSP
[02:19] <JaneW> jelkner: agreed, but the pressure was killing us (some of us literally) and it;s no good promising the world and not getting any of it right
[02:20] <ogra_ltsp> and they keep our CD broken as well
[02:20] <JaneW> so we need to have a properly working product before we sell it.
[02:20] <jelkner> OK, i don't want to contribute to any early deaths
[02:20] <flint> important question - has sabdfl come up with a name for breezy+1 that will enrage mdz yet?
[02:20] <flint> sorry...
[02:20] <JaneW> there's mention of something
[02:20] <ogra_ltsp> i heard a name, but forgot it
[02:21] <JaneW> may or may not be public yet...
[02:21] <JaneW> so I will remain silent
[02:21] <flint> the real question here is about upgrade path....
[02:21] <JaneW> ok so can we make a call on a web authoring tool now or not?
[02:21] <JaneW> flint: yes we want a stable (if very simple) base now
[02:22] <JaneW> flint: whoich can be embelished and fancied up for more wow effect in the next cycle
[02:22] <ogra_ltsp> options: 1. quanta, 2. screem, 3. bluefish .... make a vote
[02:22] <eps> 3 :)
[02:22] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: I have no knowledge 
[02:23] <jelkner> JaneW: but in the interest of reducing stress, it is not packages we need right now, but ease of install and dependability
[02:23] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: chmj says Quanta
[02:23] <eps> though I do a lot of web coding so I'm bias
[02:23] <jelkner> packages can come later
[02:23] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, nope
[02:23] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, its most important to have that sorted, the CD wont build if the package selection isnt clear
[02:23] <JaneW> eps: which is more user friendly, especially for novices and under 18s...
[02:24] <flint> elkner says that bluefish is not bad.  Ollie, what package is easiest to get in?
[02:24] <eps> I would be thinking more a long the lines of a specific set of packages and don't expand on it until it is researched
[02:24] <ogra_ltsp> flint, the all three are in main... 
[02:24] <eps> JaneW, that is hard, those apps are rather powerful :P ...
[02:24] <ogra_ltsp> so this isnt a problem... i just dont want to make the decision alone
[02:25] <JaneW> eps: ok thanks - but not novice it seems... ;)
[02:25] <eps> JaneW, hehe, I hope not :D
[02:25] <flint> the original ubuntu that we know and love did not even have a wed editor.  less is more.
[02:25] <eps> JaneW, I would still have to suggest bluefish simply because it doesn't put features in your face until you need them.  so it is simple
[02:25] <ogra_ltsp> but we committed to have one at the summit
[02:25] <flint> sorry web replaces wed
[02:26] <eps> also, why not have nvu as the web editor?
[02:26] <JaneW> ok bluefish - has a nice name!
[02:26] <ogra_ltsp> and a pretty icon...
[02:26] <JaneW> nvu was rejected
[02:26] <eps> gah k3b is killing most of my screen :(
[02:26] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, what do you say ?
[02:26] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: sold!
[02:26] <eps> JaneW, can I ask why?
[02:26] <flint> cut to fit, paint to match, fly it to Paris...
[02:26] <ogra_ltsp> eps, its not supportable...
[02:26] <ogra_ltsp> it ships a old insecure copy of the complete mozilla code
[02:27] <JaneW> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportNvu
[02:27] <eps> ogra_ltsp, okay... I've already lost a "not supportable" discussion with a local pc place this week when myself and several others tried to convince them to try linux so I wont comment further. :P
[02:27] <JaneW> ok are we agreed on Bluefish (nice name, cute logo, and 3 votes) 3/3
[02:28] <ogra_ltsp> highvoltage, around ? any opinion ?
[02:28] <flint> the way out of that eps is to get a copy of crossover.  This is not free but its existance solves the argument.
[02:28] <JaneW> I'll phone him
[02:28] <JanC> nvu can probably be reconsidered once it runs on xulrunner...
[02:28] <jelkner> btw.  Breezy kicks butt!
[02:28] <ogra_ltsp> heh
[02:29] <jelkner> i'm now running it all over the place
[02:29] <jelkner> the sound problems with hoary are gone
[02:29] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, you were in the bluefish boat too ? (i trust your RL experience most here)
[02:29] <flint> elkner, who never met a beta upgrade he did not love, has it on the LTSP server and his desktop...
[02:29] <jelkner> ogra_ltsp: keep in mind that i'm in a cs classroom
[02:29] <jelkner> bluefish works great
[02:30] <jelkner> students like it, and find it easy to use
[02:30] <JaneW> ok word from highvoltage ...
[02:30] <ogra_ltsp> oki, sounds like a majority for bluefish
[02:30] <jelkner> but i wouldn't give it to teachers to use
[02:30] <jelkner> they will need to wait for nvu
[02:30] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, nvu will never be in main
[02:30] <highvoltage> ok i'm here
[02:31] <flint> elkner managed to get hoary working, added breezy and then got the whole thing working with edubuntu.
[02:31] <JaneW> highvoltage says he prefers Quanta but it does have KDE dependencies, so Bluefish is a good option, esp if we want to switch to nvu later
[02:31] <jelkner> it doesn't have to be in main
[02:31] <jelkner> as long as its in universe
[02:31] <flint> what is the security glitch with nvu...
[02:31] <JaneW> here he is
[02:31] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, it does if we want it on the CD
[02:31] <highvoltage> quanta is real nice.
[02:31] <jelkner> we don't need it on the CD
[02:31] <JaneW> highvoltage also reminided me that Open Office has a simple web edittor functionality...
[02:31] <eps> bluefish is good for coding in xhtml/php so I still vote for it (I personally use jedit though)
[02:31] <highvoltage> ogra_ltsp said previousely that it's touch to put on cd though, because it relies to much on stuff outside main.
[02:31] <ogra_ltsp> flint, it ships a complete (very old and insecure) copy of mozilla...
[02:31] <jelkner> oh, the live cd becomes an issue
[02:32] <highvoltage> quanta has wysiwyg and html split view wich makes things very nice.
[02:32] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, and the schools without internet access...
[02:32] <eps> JaneW, as a web developer I would ask that people not know that it can make pages.  it isn't web standards compliant and it saves in a lot of rubbish data.
[02:32] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, which will probably be the majority
[02:32] <jelkner> quanta is kde thought
[02:32] <ogra_ltsp> we also have kdeedu
[02:32] <ogra_ltsp> thats nt an issue
[02:32] <jelkner> a lot of dependencies for gnome desktop to support
[02:32] <ogra_ltsp> not even
[02:33] <JaneW> eps: like MS Word!?
[02:33] <eps> JaneW, no where near as bad, though the same sort of evilness yes :)
[02:33] <JaneW> html created from MS Word SUCKS
[02:33] <eps> agreed
[02:33] <ogra_ltsp> yup
[02:33] <jelkner> ogra_ltsp: if we already have kde libraries, what about k3b?
[02:33] <eps> k3b yes :)
[02:33] <ogra_ltsp> nope
[02:33] <jelkner> nothing in the gnome world comes even close to it
[02:33] <flint> If you can judge a book by its cover bluefish has a nicer logo.
[02:33] <flint> ..
[02:34] <eps> I love k3b... though tonight is my first time using the gnome burner (and I'm rather impressed, an iso is burning in the background)
[02:34] <ogra_ltsp> not as long as we ship gnome and already have burning apps for all tasks, i wont double functionallity
[02:34] <JaneW> ok we love Bluefish - edubuntu needs a cute factor
[02:34] <jelkner> their is no comparision between k3b and gnome burner, k3b is *much* nicer
[02:34] <highvoltage> JaneW: come look on my laptop if you want. quanta is cuter than bluefish once running.
[02:35] <flint> There is nothing that warms a consultants heart more than option paralisis 
[02:35] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, we have already two burning apps in gnome that are highly integrated...
[02:35] <eps> lol flint
[02:35] <ogra_ltsp> and it would break the CD again...
[02:35] <ogra_ltsp> every app we include newly will break the CD for some days
[02:36] <JaneW> come on ppl make a choice - be decisive (even if like me you can make the selection on logo cuteness)...
[02:36] <eps> why do schools need an advanced burner like k3b when gnomes inbuilt one is more than enough.... is that not the real question?
[02:36] <ogra_ltsp> (thats an infrastructure issue)
[02:36] <highvoltage> QUANTA!
[02:36] <highvoltage> sorry.
[02:36] <ogra_ltsp> heh
[02:36] <flint> K3b has cute to burn :^)
[02:36] <ogra_ltsp> flint !
[02:36] <highvoltage> flint: ;)
[02:36] <flint> sorry
[02:37] <jelkner> ok, i really don't want to slow things down
[02:37] <ogra_ltsp> stop this burner discussion !
[02:37] <ogra_ltsp> :)
[02:37] <jelkner> i can live with whichever apps you see fit
[02:37] <jelkner> what i'm looking for now is:
[02:37] <jelkner> 1. easy to install
[02:37] <jelkner> 2. robust
[02:37] <jelkner> 3. pretty
[02:37] <eps> okay so vote quanta vs bluefish?
[02:37] <flint> elkner has carpal tunnel but only with the words apt-get :^)
[02:38] <ogra_ltsp> for 3, i started the edubuntu-artwork package on monday: http://www.grawert.net/edubuntu/
[02:38] <ogra_ltsp> so please submit artwork :)
[02:38] <jelkner> ogra_ltsp: great!
[02:38] <ogra_ltsp> to fill it with stuff
[02:38] <jelkner> the gdm screen is most important
[02:38] <jelkner> it looks ugly now
[02:38] <eps> jelkner, I'm not sure I agree, I would say the desktop background is far more important
[02:39] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, you wont see the gdm screen on the thin clinets... 
[02:39] <flint> absolutely 
[02:39] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, i'm still working on ldm beautificatiopn
[02:39] <jelkner> eps: ok, they are both important, because the gdm is what you see first
[02:39] <JaneW> I also thinkn our default icon and font size must be bigger than normal in edubuntu 
[02:39] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, not on the thin clients
[02:39] <flint> the clients screens should be beautiful by default.
[02:39] <jelkner> well, what do you call that login screen then?
[02:39] <eps> jelkner, okay
[02:40] <JaneW> chmj votes quanta
[02:40] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, thats on the server...
[02:40] <JaneW> anymore votes?
[02:40] <JaneW> gah!
[02:40] <flint> flint votes bluefish.  who is counting the votes?
[02:40] <jelkner> help me out here, when i boot a client, i get a login screen... what do you call that?
[02:40] <ogra_ltsp> so we have 2:4 quanta:bluefush ?
[02:40] <ogra_ltsp> so we have 1:5 quanta:bluefush and a neutral lamer :)
[02:41] <ogra_ltsp> haha
[02:41] <JaneW> ok Bluefish is MUST be
[02:41] <highvoltage> i just looked at bluefish, it's improved since i've last used it.
[02:41] <highvoltage> it's still not as nice, but it's ok.
[02:41] <highvoltage> JaneW: Ouch!
[02:41] <JaneW> highvoltage: go to sleep ;)
[02:41] <jelkner> the k12-ltsp distro did a great job on that screen. they have a schoolhouse with kids in a circle dancing, and a guy with a red fedora
[02:41] <eps> bluefish :)
[02:41] <ogra_ltsp> ok, lets get it to main then, i'll start the pitti (security ) fight then :)
[02:41] <jelkner> we need something nice
[02:41] <jelkner> what we have now is grey and ugly
[02:42] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: so Bluefish it is then
[02:42] <JaneW> jelkner: who did it for them?
[02:42] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, i'll try to improve it, but UI freeze is near and mdz doesnt UI development
[02:42] <jelkner> i don't know, but i could ask
[02:43] <ogra_ltsp> JaneW, i guess they use gdm or kdm which doesnt work with out ltsp 
[02:43] <JaneW> jelkner: can I see it somewhere?
[02:43] <ogra_ltsp> ldm is a totally new implementation for our ltsp
[02:43] <ogra_ltsp> s/out/our
[02:44] <flint> I feel that it should be a derivitave of the "human brown" screen we all know, and that someone out there likes with the edubuntu logo replacing the ubuntu logo.
[02:44] <highvoltage> ogra_ltsp: k12ltsp uses gdm
[02:44] <highvoltage> by default, the gdm standard theme.
[02:44] <jelkner> yes, i agree with flint
[02:44] <ogra_ltsp> there is also something called sdm, i know mdz tries to make it work, but i havent seen it yet
[02:44] <highvoltage> o sorry, i'm supposed to sleep :)
[02:44] <jelkner> you guys know how important branding is
[02:44] <JaneW> highvoltage: ;)
[02:44] <jelkner> more than we do
[02:44] <highvoltage> ogra_ltsp: what's up with sdm?
[02:44] <jelkner> the plain grey screen is aweful
[02:44] <eps> gdm standard theme is changing with gnome 2.12
[02:44] <highvoltage> i thought that was going to be edubuntu default?
[02:45] <ogra_ltsp> highvoltage, mdz includes it as an option in our ltsp
[02:45] <jelkner> JaneW: i'm thinking how i can get you screen shots
[02:45] <highvoltage> ah
[02:45] <jelkner> since it's a login screen, i don't know how
[02:45] <jelkner> but let me think about it
[02:45] <highvoltage> jelkner: xnest
[02:45] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, xnest ;)
[02:45] <highvoltage> ogra_ltsp: ^5
[02:45] <ogra_ltsp> snap
[02:46] <flint> xnest is not bad, it is not that big, will mdz hava a secuity cow?
[02:46] <flint> for the screen shot ok oops!
[02:46] <highvoltage> flint: xnest is pretty standard in ubuntu
[02:47] <ogra_ltsp> the problem currently is that ldm is only a pygtk app and i'm not sure if we can get beyond the gui we have currently... having it look like gdm will require to put some time into it i dont have
[02:47] <JaneW> this is what he has done for ubuntu breezy http://sloss.free.fr/CCPapers.html
[02:48] <flint> elkner does not have access a fedora machine until after the meeting.
[02:49] <jelkner> JaneW: would you say the most useful thing i could do to help then is to:
[02:49] <ogra_ltsp> i'll try to get a picture on the root window though, but the current login screen will most likely stay
[02:49] <jelkner> 1. learn to use xnest
[02:49] <jelkner> 2. send you images of the k12-ltsp login screen and ours
[02:50] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, install it, and find it as "login in new window" under applications->system tools
[02:50] <jelkner> ogra_ltsp: i'm confident i can get it to work
[02:50] <jelkner> flint says he has used it before
[02:50] <JaneW> jelkner: ok thanks
[02:51] <flint> This is way better than duct taping a scanner to the monitor. (The West Virginia version of xnest)
[02:51] <ogra_ltsp> heh
[02:51] <jsgotangco> hi all sorry im late 
[02:51] <jsgotangco> i had too many beers
[02:51] <ogra_ltsp> the prob is that we dont just export X (which isnt secure) so we cant just use a X login manager....
[02:52] <ogra_ltsp> all older versions of ltsp did it like that
[02:52] <JaneW> jsgotangco: !
[02:52] <JaneW> jsgotangco: I thought you were grocery shopping...
[02:52] <flint> so this is an archetectural issue?
[02:52] <jsgotangco> JaneW: hi i hope i didnt miss anything important (hic)
[02:52] <eps> what is edubuntu planning to do for different langs that will be needed?
[02:52] <ogra_ltsp> flint, exactly...
[02:53] <flint> then where does the terminal get its initial screen from?
[02:53] <ogra_ltsp> eps, just have the language pack installed on the server ad it will be available
[02:53] <ogra_ltsp> like in ubuntu
[02:54] <ogra_ltsp> flint, from the booted thin client environment that gets booted locally 
[02:54] <eps> I know a lady who is planning to go over seas to a poorer country rather soon and to convince her to take open source software different languages need to be available... also internet isn't widely available where she is going
[02:54] <eps> (she is going to be working in schools where their computer systems will be very limited :P)
[02:54] <ogra_ltsp> eps, edubuntus language capabilitys will be the same as ubuntus
[02:54] <flint> right now it is coming up black on my terminal.
[02:55] <ogra_ltsp> with a centered login window
[02:55] <ogra_ltsp> right ?
[02:55] <eps> ogra_ltsp, ah... I shall have to research that as I'm not sure of ubuntus method of dealing with langs.  (I am a debian user :|)
[02:55] <flint> exactly
[02:55] <ogra_ltsp> its quite different to debian
[02:55] <ogra_ltsp> flint, all i can offer is to put a fullscreen pic in the background
[02:56] <highvoltage> jelkner: i can get those screenshots too
[02:56] <ogra_ltsp> but the login app will stay... (i changed the themeing to the default ubuntu theme locally already)
[02:56] <flint> Elkner refers to this login screen as the plain grey pre walldown eastern european look :^)
[02:56] <ogra_ltsp> heh
[02:57] <flint> are you telling me that mdz is the stazi?
[02:57] <JaneW> eps: there are 90 lagunages supported in ubuntu currently
[02:57] <ogra_ltsp> its a borrowed a bit from the legacy gdm login
[02:57] <eps> JaneW, okay
[02:57] <JaneW> want a dump of them in a /msg?
[02:57] <eps> JaneW, do you know if it is the sort of thing one could carry around on a pendisk and just install when installing a new copy of (say) edubuntu, is it .deb?
[02:58] <flint> oh excellent jane!
[02:58] <flint> Young children will cry when they see the current login screen.
[02:58] <ogra_ltsp> eps, yes, but its split in several packages
[02:58] <eps> thanks JaneW 
[02:58] <jsgotangco> not all lanuages are installed by default
[02:58] <eps> ogra_ltsp, understood
[02:59] <flint> you mean the xdm login not the gdm
[02:59] <ogra_ltsp> nope
[02:59] <ogra_ltsp> switch gdm to "non graphical"
[03:00] <ogra_ltsp> you'll have a similar screen to ldm
[03:00] <flint> I want to resolve this language issue I will hold on the darth vader login screen issue.
[03:00] <ogra_ltsp> thats how gdm looked before it got graphical
[03:00] <jelkner> ogra_ltsp: so you can see why they wanted it to get graphical!
[03:01] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, it took them several years to get there... i'll be faster, but i'm not sure i'll make it in this release cycle
[03:01] <jelkner> no problem, ogra_ltsp, you can only do what you can do
[03:02] <jelkner> i'm greatful for all the fine work you've done already
[03:02] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, i understand your concern... but ask flint how it looked in loindon when mdz showed ltsp to us
[03:02] <ogra_ltsp> its improved a lot since then...
[03:02] <ogra_ltsp> but still needs work
[03:02] <flint> I was so buzy handing him a cross over cable I did not notice...
[03:03] <flint> I fully intend to whine to mdz about this
[03:03] <ogra_ltsp> it was unthemed four rows of widgets in the top left
[03:03] <highvoltage> flint: darth vader?! where!? that would be so cool!
[03:03] <ogra_ltsp> flint, nope, whine to me, i'm responsible for the UI 
[03:03] <flint> yea but that dog did actually hunt!
[03:03] <jelkner> ogra_ltsp: question: how easy would it be to:
[03:04] <flint> yea but ollie you need the hook and without it you can do little.
[03:04] <jelkner> 1. change the black background to ubuntu brown
[03:04] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, 1. easy
[03:04] <jelkner> 2. change the grey to another ubuntu color
[03:04] <jelkner> that would go a long way
[03:04] <flint> if there is no graphic hook this is hard.  Is there a graphic hook for the login screen?
[03:04] <jelkner> and if that is easy, why not just do that for this first release?
[03:04] <ogra_ltsp> 2. is already done locally here, it uses the brown clearlooks theme
[03:05] <ogra_ltsp> as all apps on the desktop
[03:05] <flint> can anyone name the file where this hook lives
[03:05] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: thanks for your hard work, are you feeling more possitive now?
[03:05] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: I know the past few weeks have not been fun for you...
[03:05] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: btw I don't see that embryo logo when I boot up, I made a point of checking today...
[03:05] <JaneW> 2. burnt orange?
[03:05] <ogra_ltsp> /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/lib/ltsp/greeter
[03:05] <jelkner> ok, then i've made more than enough noise about this already...
[03:05] <ogra_ltsp> flint, ^^
[03:06] <flint> we could play with it here and validate (or break :^) it with this hook.  Thanks ollie!
[03:06] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, i plan to have it as pretty as gdm for our next release
[03:06] <ogra_ltsp> flint, go ahead....
[03:06] <JaneW> is there anything else to discuss>
[03:07] <JaneW> ?
[03:07] <jsgotangco> umm
[03:07] <jsgotangco> i came in too late?
[03:07] <ogra_ltsp> flint, if yu got improvements within the next two days (before UI freeze) mail them to me (ogra@ubuntu.com)
[03:07] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: do you need anymore decisions?
[03:07] <jelkner> can i ask a technical question about server specs for edubuntu?
[03:07] <JaneW> oh yes docs!
[03:07] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, go ahaed
[03:07] <ogra_ltsp> JaneW, nope
[03:07] <JaneW> jsgotangco: do you want to discuss the documentation?
[03:07] <jelkner> the friends of the mount rainier library is buying a server today for our library
[03:07] <jsgotangco> hmm ok
[03:07] <jsgotangco> there's really not that much
[03:08] <jelkner> what is a good minimum spec for the server?
[03:08] <flint> gotcha ollie!
[03:08] <jsgotangco> i updated the Cookbook wiki
[03:08] <jsgotangco> and sent ogra an html preview
[03:08] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, how many clients ? 
[03:08] <jelkner> half a dozen
[03:08] <ogra_ltsp> which looks very good as a base already
[03:08] <jsgotangco> since we really don't have a doc/art freeze, we're not constrained with the sched
[03:08] <jsgotangco> umm?
[03:08] <jsgotangco> hello?
[03:08] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, hmm, at least a gig of ram i'd say
[03:08] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: cookbook wiki?
[03:09] <JaneW> jsgotangco: there is an art freeze...
[03:09] <jelkner> ogra_ltsp: dual processor?
[03:09] <ogra_ltsp> JaneW, i'd like to ignore it for edubuntu
[03:09] <jelkner> or will single do
[03:09] <jelkner> or what about these new dual core things?
[03:09] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, i think a fast single would do... 
[03:09] <flint> jane, I will test as soon as i freakin' can...
[03:09] <ogra_ltsp> even better
[03:09] <ogra_ltsp> JaneW, it wont affect ubuntu
[03:09] <flint> but you still need the ram.
[03:10] <jsgotangco> err hello?
[03:10] <ogra_ltsp> JaneW, and i think mdz wouldnt have objections
[03:10] <JaneW> ogra_ltsp: you sure?
[03:10] <JaneW> cos 8 Spet is listed as  DocumentationStringFreeze
[03:10] <ogra_ltsp> JaneW, nope :) but i'll ask him
[03:10] <JaneW> s/Spet/Sept
[03:10] <jsgotangco> JaneW: im the only guy doing the doc
[03:11] <JaneW> and  29 Spet is ArtworkDeadline,
[03:11] <ogra_ltsp> JaneW, yes, but we talk about edubuntu specific papers...
[03:11] <jsgotangco> JaneW: its impossible for me to finish it even if im jobless at the moment
[03:11] <JaneW> jsgotangco: you mean the cookbook?
[03:11] <jsgotangco> JaneW: yes 
[03:11] <jsgotangco> JaneW: we are very much constrained by documentation freeze for ubuntu
[03:11] <ogra_ltsp> JaneW, artwork is fine with me... i think with my current artwork package we'll have a good fallback idf anything is missing 
[03:11] <JaneW> jsgotangco: it will just have to complete after the release then... there's not much we can do about that right?
[03:11] <jelkner> ogra_ltsp: another question for you, how do you recommend i do java on edubuntu?
[03:12] <jsgotangco> JaneW: its workable with what we have we just have to test out
[03:12] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, we'll have blackdown packages in multiverse
[03:12] <jelkner> cool
[03:12] <jelkner> when?
[03:12] <jsgotangco> JaneW: we can still beat the sept. 8 deadline
[03:12] <JaneW> highvoltage: do you have your troubleshooting guide completed yet?
[03:12] <ogra_ltsp> i requested their inclusion yesterday, i dont think elmo has synced them yet
[03:12] <jsgotangco> JaneW: but the meat of the cookbook is the troubleshooting
[03:13] <flint> Dear jsgotangco I have the jobless thing going myself.  We need to talk about the consultancy and billing (my favorite subject:^)
[03:13] <jelkner> school starts for me on sept. 6, i need to set up java by then
[03:13] <highvoltage> JaneW: it's about 45% between version 1 and 2. worked on it a bit this morning.
[03:13] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, i'll try to push it a bit...
[03:13] <jelkner> Thanks!
[03:13] <jsgotangco> JaneW: it doesn't help that i'll be speaking at LinuxWorld here in Manila in 2 weeks
[03:13] <ogra_ltsp> if that doesnt work, feel free to bug me how to get the right package installed manually... i can point you to it
[03:14] <ogra_ltsp> jelkner, so you wont have a difference to the later one
[03:14] <flint> can anyone gossip about ubuntu and debian?
[03:15] <ogra_ltsp> flint, ?
[03:15] <flint> i understand that ubuntu was conspicuous in its absence at Linuxworld SF
[03:16] <ogra_ltsp> oh, i didnt know that
[03:16] <flint> note that I was not there...
[03:16] <ogra_ltsp> ah, that was the prob then ;)
[03:17] <flint> the buzz is that folks want to standardize distros around sarge...
[03:17] <JaneW> ok all are we done?
[03:17] <flint> yes ma'am
[03:17] <ogra_ltsp> JaneW, go drinking ;)
[03:17] <JaneW> lol at 16:00
[03:17] <ogra_ltsp> thats when my next meeting starts :)
[03:17] <jsgotangco> umm
[03:18] <jsgotangco> ok sorry if what i did was bitch
[03:18] <ogra_ltsp> err, actually no... its later i just see...
[03:18] <jsgotangco> i had a few pints
[03:18] <flint> I am going to go play with /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/lib/ltsp/greeter
[03:19] <ogra_ltsp> yeah :)
[03:19] <flint> Dear jsgotangco email me about consultancy flint@flint.com
[03:19] <flint> jane how do you get your name in the message line as in "JaneW has some calls to make"?
[03:19] <flint> flint tries to refer to himself...
[03:20] <ogra_ltsp> flint /me
[03:20] <flint> we want to know the secrets of janew's *
[03:20] <jsgotangco> flint: ok
[03:20] <ogra_ltsp> hehe
[03:20] <flint> thanks babe!
[03:20] <jsgotangco> flint: are you giving me a job? heh
[03:21] <flint> no, i am scheming to keep us alive, it is a hobby right now.
[03:21] <jsgotangco> heh good point
[03:22] <flint> jsgotangco: email me at flint@flint.com
[03:22] <jsgotangco> flint: gotcha
[03:22] <JaneW> lol
[03:23] <JaneW> flint: I learned the tricks of IRC back in 1995 (so i did learn somehting at varsity)
[03:23] <highvoltage> flint: you can also type the first few letters of someones name and press <tab> to autocomplete
[03:23] <JaneW> although it wasn;t how to type on a laptop keyboard
[03:23] <jelkner> ogra_ltsp: another technical question...
[03:24] <jelkner> will we be able to boot amd64 and powerpc clients?
[03:24] <jelkner> can i use an amd64 server
[03:24] <flint> can we use macintosh clients?
[03:25] <jelkner> we have a lab setup to test all that
[03:25] <jsgotangco> flint: like VNC?
[03:25] <jelkner> i like to show off how cross platform free software is, so i have a mac and an amd64 all running ubuntu
[03:25] <jsgotangco> probably (i hvae no clue either)
[03:25] <flint> the word lab is a euphamisim for room full of ols computers...
[03:26] <jelkner> jsgotangco: no, as edubuntu thin clients
[03:26] <flint> the old ltsp did this
[03:26] <flint> should I check with mdz?
[03:28] <flint> did i piss everybody off with this question?
[03:29] <ogra_> gah, i missed it
[03:29] <flint> mac support for mdz ltsp.
[03:29] <ogra_> no problem
[03:29] <flint> groovy while we are at it.  What about sound and storage on the thin clients?  These were never right even in the original ltsp.
[03:29] <ogra_> but you need a mac server as well... mixed setups wont work
[03:30] <flint> WHAT!!!! they worked on k12.
[03:30] <ogra_> they are neiteher at ours in the first release... thats something to sort for breezy+1
[03:30] <flint> fair enough.  we are about to put in a mixed room.
[03:31] <ogra_> flint, our ltsp relies very much on the initramfs on the server...
[03:31] <ogra_> thats arch specific
[03:31] <flint> mixed in our economic environment is very important, like a show stopper.
[03:31] <ogra_> i know its planned for breezy+1 to work something out in this direction
[03:32] <flint> it is better to know than to find out in combat.
[03:32] <ogra_> but currently it wont work afaik.... mdz will be able to be more precise here
[03:32] <ogra_> (probably it works but i dont know yes)
[03:32] <ogra_> yet
[03:32] <flint> this is a very important issue... I will whine to him 
[03:32] <ogra_> go ahead :)
[03:33] <ogra_> he'll love it :)
[03:33] <flint> a-l-l-l-l righty then... thanks for all these excellent tips!
[03:33] <ogra_> thanks for coming 
[03:33] <flint> I will be online while i play with /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/lib/ltsp/greeter
[03:34] <ogra_> oki... poke me if you got questions
[03:34] <ogra_> its probably best to install glade :)
[03:34] <ogra_> to work with the glade file
[03:36] <jelkner> ok, everybody, i need to run... same time next week?
[03:36] <JaneW> jelkner: sure
[03:36] <flint> the terminal not being in the right click is a mortal sin...
[03:36] <jelkner> great, by then i'll have the whole lab running
[03:36] <jelkner> lots of feedback...
[03:36] <jelkner> cya
[03:36] <flint> thanks all...
[09:51] <\sh> 9 mins?
[09:51] <ogra> yup
[09:51] <ogra> looks like your clock matches mine ;)
[09:52] <\sh> ogra: that's good :) 
[09:57] <\sh> good morning ajmitch 
[09:57] <\sh> hey jblack
[09:58] <jblack> Hello, \sh. :)
[09:58] <ajmitch> morning :)
[09:58] <ogra> yo jblack 
[09:58] <bddebian> Heya ajmitch
[09:59] <lathiat_> morning? pah
[09:59] <ajmitch> hey lathiat_ 
[09:59] <ajmitch> good to see I don't need to call you ;)
[09:59] <lathiat_> heh
[10:00] <lathiat_> i'd just like to mention that portability sucks
[10:00] <lathiat_> why can't everyone just run linux
[10:00] <lathiat_> bleh!
[10:00] <bddebian> Because GNU/Hurd r0x j00
[10:00] <Nafallo> :-)
[10:00] <lathiat_> haha
[10:00] <\sh> bddebian: hey dude...I missed u soo much
[10:01] <bddebian> Hi \sh, thanks :-)
[10:02] <lathiat_> ajmitch: heh
[10:02] <lathiat_> i was trying to think of somethign smartass to say
[10:02] <\sh> ok..ogra has problems with dsl
[10:02] <lathiat_> but alas my brain is too dead
[10:02] <ajmitch> \sh: that's no surprise lately
[10:02] <ajmitch> any sign of dholbach?
[10:03] <lathiat_> queue dholbach joining
[10:03] <\sh> I don't see him ..;)
[10:03] <lathiat_> i said queue, damn it.
[10:04] <\sh> damn...again popup in gnome...jumping from desktop 1 to 2
[10:04] <ajmitch> \sh: you have his phone number to call him? :)
[10:05] <\sh> ajmitch: aehm...ja
[10:05] <\sh> yes
[10:05] <lathiat_> lies!
[10:07] <bddebian> Bah, why not? :-)
[10:07] <jblack> Where is the agenda again? 
[10:07] <sistpoty> MOTUMeeting (wiki)
[10:08] <\sh> ah ok.
[10:08] <\sh> I just phoned dholbach..he is busy in the moment...dinner with his parents etc.
[10:08] <\sh> He said: Please excuse me, and have fun with the meeting :)
[10:08] <lathiat_> slacker
[10:08] <bddebian> Aye
[10:09] <\sh> ok..where is ogra
[10:09] <ajmitch> a poor excuse :)
[10:09] <\sh> doesn't matter
[10:09] <\sh> lets start
[10:09] <ajmitch> ogra is probably cursing his dsl company
[10:09] <sistpoty> hehe
[10:09] <dredg> bouncy
[10:09] <ajmitch> morning ogra 
[10:10] <\sh> ogra: again: dholbach is sorry for not attending..because he is busy
[10:10] <\sh> ogra: just phoned him
[10:10] <siretart> ajmitch: hey, I'm using the same company... 
[10:10] <ajmitch> first up on the agenda - what we need to do inthe 7 weeks before release
[10:11] <\sh> btw..who is writing the meeting minutes for the ML and wiki?

[10:11] <\sh> bddebian: ?
[10:11] <lathiat_> i will if you like
[10:11] <\sh> ok lathiat_ :) 
[10:11] <ajmitch> thanks :)
[10:11] <bddebian> \sh: Normally I would love to but I'm swamped atm. Sorry :-(
[10:11] <bddebian> Thanks lathiat_
[10:11] <siretart> lathiat_: thanks!
[10:11] <\sh> bddebian: teasing :)
[10:12] <\sh> lathiat_: thx :) 
[10:12] <slomo> \sh: i'm logging everything everytime... so for the next time just ask me ;)
[10:12] <lathiat_> okie
[10:12] <\sh> so lets start with ajmitch first point
[10:13] <\sh> as u can see on the agenda, we have some work to do..
[10:13] <\sh> 1. cairo1 to cairo2 
[10:13] <ajmitch> both the cairo & slang transitions have only a few packages in them that I can see
[10:14] <siretart> the last hours, there have been quite a lot of uploads because of them
[10:14] <\sh> the transition must be ended..cause cairo1 is removed from the archives
[10:14] <slomo> ajmitch: slang is mostly done... i only need help for maybe 3 packages
[10:14] <Nafallo> I have an URL for libcairo1 on amd64 :-P
[10:14] <Nafallo> http://www.magicalforest.se/tmp/give-backs_amd64.txt
[10:14] <\sh> ajmitch: 47 packages? including xfce4?
[10:15] <ajmitch> \sh: not many, I'd say
[10:15] <ajmitch> I built them all yesterday as a test of my magic script :)
[10:15] <\sh> siretart: -2 (the first 2 lines are not counting)
[10:15] <siretart> ah, right
[10:15] <siretart> sry
[10:16] <ajmitch> a number of them showed up as successful builds in my inbox
[10:16] <slomo> that's 42 source packages still depending on libcairo1 for me... well
[10:16] <janimo> the xfce4 ones were done by seb128
[10:16] <\sh> janimo: what about xfce4? 
[10:16] <janimo> but some are waiting in buildd
[10:16] <janimo> lamont needs to kick them
[10:16] <janimo> I sent him a list
[10:16] <\sh> janimo: good :) so it only has to be kicked by lamont or infinity
[10:16] <ajmitch> so there are maybe 30 packages then
[10:16] <siretart> do we have a ruby master?
[10:16] <ajmitch> gtkmm/gnomemm stuff looks to be the bulk of the rest
[10:17] <janimo> siretart why?
[10:17] <siretart> there are 9 ruby packages in the list
[10:17] <siretart> depending on libcairo1
[10:17] <janimo> in the cairo list?
[10:17] <ajmitch> I'll start a rebuild of them now..
[10:17] <bddebian> ajmitch: You rock :-)
[10:17] <siretart> and from time to time, someone joins the channel, asking what's going on with ruby
[10:17] <lathiat_> What is going on with ruby?
[10:18] <janimo> siretart, it doesn't install or what?
[10:18] <lathiat_> does it need some love?
[10:18] <\sh> guys..lets go on...technical issues in #u-motu pls :)
[10:18] <janimo> anyway back to topic
[10:18] <ajmitch> bddebian: I spent a few hours yesterday writing an auto-transition script
[10:18] <bddebian> Nice
[10:18] <\sh> ajmitch: so u compile them with your magic script...and upload them?
[10:18] <ajmitch> \sh: if it all works, yes :)
[10:19] <\sh> ajmitch: ok...give a status on -motu or on a wiki page..so everything which is ftbfsing we can take care of
[10:19] <Mitario> hi guys, sorry to barge in, had an urgent meeting to attend :/
[10:19] <ajmitch> will do
[10:19] <\sh> ajmitch: thx.
[10:19] <\sh> 2. slang1 -> slang2 ... 
[10:19] <\sh> slomo: i saw some uploads from u
[10:19] <ajmitch> slomo asked for help on ~3 or so
[10:20] <slomo> yes... currently i fixed most packages
[10:20] <slomo> only 4 aren't working... and i can't fix these
[10:20] <\sh> mpeg2dec is uploaded / libdv as well (just rebuilds I hope...)
[10:20] <ajmitch> well done :)
[10:20] <slomo> the problematic packages are the ones markes upstream on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUSlang2Transition
[10:21] <slomo> maybe someone with more slang knowledge than me can port them to slang2
[10:22] <\sh> ok..we will have a look on them...and mpeg2dec failed on amd64
[10:22] <\sh> anyways...
[10:23] <lathiat_> a quick count puts libcairo1 at 47, libqt3c102-mt at 37, libgmp3 at 30 and libdps1 at 16, unmet wise
[10:23] <\sh> ok..
[10:23] <lathiat_> libdps1 seemed to be simple rebuilds, not sure about qt3 or gmp3
[10:23] <lathiat_> i think theyre just cxx cruft leftover
[10:23] <\sh> I'll take libqt3c102-mt ;)
[10:24] <lathiat_> ok
[10:24] <lathiat_> we should fix those big ones
[10:24] <lathiat_> i'd do them if i had upload yet... maybe soon. :)
[10:24] <Nafallo> hmm
[10:25] <Nafallo> I believe I was working on libdps1 a while ago.
[10:25] <\sh> lathiat_: debdiffs to MOTUs they upload
[10:25] <lathiat_> \sh: yeh but debdiffs for rebuilds are a waste of time :)
[10:25] <lathiat_> suppose i can sort out what needs rebuilds
[10:25] <Nafallo> rebuilt them but never came around to check them out :-P
[10:25] <lathiat_> and give a list to someone like infinity who offered to do amass rebuilds
[10:25] <\sh> lathiat_: make a wiki and put src-package + rebuild flag on it :)
[10:25] <lathiat_> and fix what needs to be fix
[10:25] <lathiat_> and debdiff tho
[10:25] <lathiat_> se
[10:26] <siretart> poor ogra
[10:26] <lathiat_> ok so those are the bigger things
[10:26] <lathiat_> are there any other transitions?
[10:26] <\sh> hmm...why is kdelibs4 in mylist of libqt3c102-mt?
[10:26] <\sh> mesa
[10:26] <slomo> lathiat: GL/GLU transition
[10:27] <lathiat_> yeh GL/GLU
[10:27] <lathiat_> i think infinity did alot on that front
[10:27] <lathiat_> probably still a bit to go
[10:27] <siretart> yes, I think its completed for main
[10:27] <lathiat_> yeh he seemed to be tending to some universe stuff too
[10:28] <siretart> jupp
[10:28] <lathiat_> any others?
[10:28] <lathiat_> so gl/glu can go under those other 2
[10:28] <lathiat_> dps1 and gmp3 i'll look at 
[10:29] <\sh> not that I know of..unmet deps 
[10:29] <siretart> well, there is also a haskell transition
[10:29] <siretart> but that counts probably on gmp3
[10:29] <ajmitch> yay
[10:29] <lathiat_> is that the ghc6 thing?
[10:29] <lathiat_> ah yes
[10:29] <lathiat_> has that been bootstrapped?
[10:29] <lathiat_> or is that waiting on gmp3 too?
[10:29] <sistpoty> no, ghc6 was/is broken for gcc4
[10:29] <siretart> lathiat_: no, we are still waiting for new ghc6 release
[10:29] <lathiat_> ah
[10:29] <ajmitch> sistpoty: any news of a release tere?
[10:30] <sistpoty> it's not yet there...
[10:30] <sistpoty> but a daily tarball from yesterday seems to do the gcc4 trick
[10:30] <ajmitch> :(
[10:30] <sistpoty> should we go for it?
[10:30] <lathiat_> is there any indication of a rough timeline?
[10:30] <siretart> sistpoty: you already did package it?!
[10:30] <lathiat_> like is it likely to be within a week or two or alot longer ? 
[10:31] <sistpoty> siretart: some kind of... but more a ugly hack than a package
[10:31] <siretart> lathiat_: it should have been there last week
[10:31] <\sh> sistpoty: go for it ..
[10:31] <siretart> sistpoty: oh. ok. Let's talk about this later
[10:31] <sistpoty> ok
[10:31] <sistpoty> maybe i need some help, but i know where to ask for it ;)
[10:32] <siretart> ok
[10:32] <bddebian> Did ghc6bootstrap ever get reviewed/uploaded?
[10:33] <Nafallo> .
[10:33] <\sh> Nafallo: now :) welcome
[10:33] <sistpoty> bddebian: no... lamont said could handle it
[10:33] <lathiat_> bddebian: i think we were just saying, that it fails on gcc4, adn waiting for new release
[10:33] <siretart> hi Nafallo :)
[10:33] <Mitario> oh right :)
[10:33] <Nafallo> siretart: I was here, just that my text didn't get though the damn dircproxy :-P
[10:34] <siretart> oh. nasty..
[10:34] <\sh> sistpoty: u are talking to the right people to get this ghc6 beast into universe :)
[10:34] <sistpoty> sh: actually siretart was ;)
[10:34] <sistpoty> damn this \ ;)
[10:35] <siretart> ;)
[10:35] <\sh> sistpoty: it's for your motu work :) 
[10:35] <sistpoty> *g*
[10:35] <ajmitch> ok..
[10:35] <\sh> Ok.
[10:35] <ajmitch> so how many transitions is that now? :)
[10:35] <ajmitch> 6?
[10:36] <\sh> ajmitch: 5 or 6 yes
[10:36] <ajmitch> someone write these all down on MOTUTodo before I lose track of them :)
[10:36] <\sh> lathiat_: is wrapping up :) and we have logfiles :)
[10:36] <lathiat_> yep i'll write it all up
[10:36] <ajmitch> I know
[10:36] <lathiat_> and if you promised to do something i'll mail you a reminder ;p
[10:36] <ajmitch> haha
[10:36] <siretart> cairo, slang, gl/glu, qt3, gmp
[10:36] <lathiat_> PLEASE TO FIX <THIS> KTHXBAI
[10:37] <ajmitch> well I'm part-way through my limited cairo transition
[10:37] <lathiat_> siretart: dps1
[10:37] <lathiat_> theyre just the big ones
[10:37] <lathiat_> theres lots of just a few broken apckages
[10:37] <ajmitch> the script even does dch for me! :)
[10:37] <lathiat_> i suspect thats largely C++ crap
[10:37] <\sh> I heard the call ,-)
[10:37] <\sh> next point: Automatic testbuilds of universe
[10:38] <ajmitch> I heard that elmo & infinity were already doing this
[10:38] <\sh> Lamont: ping :) is it possible without any hassle for u or infinity/elmo?
[10:39] <lamont> uh - specifically what?
[10:39] <\sh> lamont: universe?
[10:39] <lamont> specifically what with universe?
[10:39] <siretart> how up to date is this? http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/Test/
[10:40] <\sh> well...dholbach is not here...so he would know....but I could think of all packages
[10:40] <lamont> I think the import is running now, meaning that none of it is current
[10:40] <lamont> wanna-build -b i386/build-db -dbreezy-autotest --list=all | tail
[10:40] <lamont> Total 0 package(s)
[10:40] <lamont> once the import finishes, the buildd
[10:41] <lamont> 's will just start going.
[10:41] <siretart> cool
[10:41] <\sh> k
[10:41] <lamont> and, in theory, we'll know what time is 'current'
[10:41] <ajmitch> so then we can get stuck in & get buried with FTBFS packages
[10:41] <lamont> but I expect that any time after 'right now' will be part of the new run
[10:41] <\sh> hehe
[10:42] <\sh> as ogra said today, universe won't be in shape for release this time..but that was the truth since the beginning
[10:42] <ajmitch> we'll get it into as good a shape as possible then
[10:42] <\sh> for breezy+1 : 1. prio fixing, polishing :)
[10:43] <\sh> ajmitch: for sure..but many sources are unmaintained, but still in the archives..
[10:43] <ajmitch> yep
[10:43] <Mitario> is there a number of sources unmaintained somewhere?
[10:43] <\sh> unmaintained == no upstream activity anymore && upstream != debian
[10:43] <Mitario> ah
[10:44] <ajmitch> and it'll get worse for the apt-get.org mass imports coming up
[10:44] <siretart> well, thats why we call it 'universe'
[10:44] <lathiat_> i think we really need to be harsh on selecting apt-get.org stuff to import
[10:44] <\sh> ajmitch: I will talk about apt-get.org with dholbach when I meet him in berlin
[10:45] <\sh> ajmitch: it was his goal for breezy I think but it looks like, that we have to postpone this goal to breezy+1
[10:45] <ajmitch> expanding universe & QA of universe seem to collide head-on :-/
[10:45] <dredg> with much much fallout.
[10:45] <lathiat_> its sortof a side-on collision
[10:45] <lathiat_> :)
[10:45] <ajmitch> which is ogra's point later (no more NEW packages)
[10:46] <lathiat_> except really cool packages (tm)
[10:46] <Yagisan> like mine :)
[10:46] <ajmitch> Yagisan: that would be pushing it
[10:46] <lathiat_> preferebly 5 letter projects starting and ending in A
[10:46] <Yagisan> sorry
[10:46] <lathiat_> err
[10:46] <ajmitch> lathiat_: ending in A? ;)
[10:46] <lathiat_> ajmitch: its 4:46am ;p
[10:46] <lathiat_> thats what the 'err' was about ;p
[10:47] <siretart> lets move on
[10:47] <\sh> ok so we will concentrate right now in fixing stuff, less NEW packages/reviewing
[10:47] <lathiat_> should review fixed packages tho
[10:47] <bddebian> Fixing "stuff" ?
[10:47] <lathiat_> bddebian: unmet deps, FTBFS
[10:48] <slomo> bddebian: transitions
[10:48] <\sh> "Fixing Sources to build with gcc4/g++4"
[10:48] <bddebian> OK 
[10:48] <lathiat_> \sh: that world of fun
[10:48] <Nafallo> bugs
[10:48] <bddebian> Is UnmetDeps still huge?
[10:48] <\sh> lathiat_: yes :)
[10:48] <ajmitch> bddebian: getting stuck in & getting your hands dirty
[10:48] <siretart> bddebian: UnmetDeps are always huge
[10:48] <ajmitch> bddebian: it's big enough to warrant some love - I'll rebuild the list as a test
[10:48] <\sh> lets go on....jblack is waiting :)
[10:49] <\sh> ajmitch: patches towards debian (breezy+1)
[10:49] <ajmitch> but I've already been using baz & bzr
[10:49] <ajmitch> yes!
[10:49] <ajmitch> we need to reduce our pain for breezy+1!
[10:49] <lathiat_> we should also consider patches to upstream
[10:49] <lathiat_> not just debian
[10:49] <siretart> ajmitch: how should this pushing work?
[10:49] <lathiat_> where appropraite
[10:49] <Nafallo> I'm definitly for less pain ;-)
[10:49] <lathiat_> i think build fixes would be a big thing in this area
[10:50] <ajmitch> siretart: bug reports
[10:50] <\sh> first of all...
[10:50] <lathiat_> gcc4 wise
[10:50] <\sh> there is this utnubu project of debian
[10:50] <lathiat_> heh best name
[10:50] <siretart> ajmitch: this meens manual work for each diff, right?
[10:50] <ajmitch> siretart: if you have the time for it, yes
[10:50] <\sh> right now they're fetching our patches somehow.and applying some of them to debian packages
[10:51] <sistpoty> sh: you mean utnubu?
[10:51] <sistpoty> + \
[10:51] <ajmitch> if you look on packages.qa.debian.org/fillinpackagenamehere, then there's an ubuntu patch link where we've done some work
[10:51] <\sh> moment
[10:51] <\sh> ogra on phone
[10:51] <siretart> ajmitch: thats also nothing for doing right now, lets concentrate rather on stabilizing
[10:51] <ajmitch> although the utnubu team exists, IMHO it doesn't excuse us from contacting the debian maintainers
[10:52] <\sh> !!! ATTENTION !!!
[10:52] <\sh> APT-GET.ORG IS A MUST OF MARK!
[10:52] <siretart> this means for us MOTU's?
[10:52] <ajmitch> oh dear
[10:52] <sistpoty> damn
[10:52] <lathiat_> joy
[10:54] <siretart> I did not really get that APT-GET.ORG Project. I thought there would exist some script that automatically check random source repositories on apt-get.org, right?
[10:54] <ajmitch> siretart: yes, but we have to check the packages for worthiness
[10:54] <lathiat_> siretart: yes, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AptGetOrg
[10:54] <Yagisan> there is, but it would miss repos like mine
[10:54] <siretart> I'm rather confused how that fits into 'NO MORE NEW PACKAGES'
[10:54] <lathiat_> siretart: the mark foot
[10:54] <ajmitch> siretart: pre-existing goal 
[10:54] <janimo> siretart, it doesn't :)
[10:54] <ajmitch> I already asked ogra about that
[10:54] <bddebian> no more new (after apt-get.org) ;-P
[10:55] <siretart> hrhr
[10:57] <siretart> silence?
[10:57] <lathiat_> yeh
[10:57] <lathiat_> ok so we nee dto do apt-get.org stuff
[10:57] <slomo> \sh: we're all shocked ;)
[10:57] <ajmitch> so where does that put us for reviewing NEW packages? :)
[10:57] <lathiat_> i think we should try get the big transitions out the way first
[10:57] <\sh> ok
[10:57] <ajmitch> lathiat_: yes, please
[10:57] <\sh> yes
[10:57] <\sh> me too
[10:57] <lathiat_> concentrate on that
[10:57] <lathiat_> when thats done
[10:57] <\sh> 1. ogra is excused...he doesn't get any connection via dsl
[10:57] <lathiat_> we'll come back and talk
[10:57] <ajmitch> Yagisan: sorry, it probably means deng won't get into breezy
[10:58] <\sh> 2. apt-get.org is a SABDFL have to be included very important project
[10:58] <lathiat_> Yagisan: just list it on apt-get.org
[10:58] <lathiat_> Yagisan: and then it will be footed through the door
[10:58] <Yagisan> ajmitch: but deng IS on apt-get.org
[10:58] <\sh> mvo: ping
[10:58] <ajmitch> imho mark is smoking some crack there :)
[10:58] <Yagisan> for 6months +
[10:58] <\sh> I hope mvo is awake
[10:58] <siretart> hm. apt-get.org needs serious organisation
[10:59] <Yagisan> your apt-get.org script is broken by design and won't pick it up
[10:59] <siretart> perhaps we can hack up revu2 to faciliate that
[10:59] <janimo> mark stated he wants apt-get even before _hoary_
[10:59] <\sh> yeah
[10:59] <\sh> but ogra told me : THIS IS IMPORTANT ! 
[10:59] <siretart> I was already thinking about some sort of 'auto' or 'remote' import of random stuff like repositories from apt-get.org
[10:59] <slomo> siretart: but revu2 isn't ready for breezy i think... and this seems to be a breezy goal :/
[11:00] <lathiat_> ok so i think we need to get the big transitions out the way and then have a meeting about aptgetorg
[11:00] <siretart> slomo: I know. thats the problem
[11:00] <lathiat_> get a few people to go through create a 'feasible' list
[11:00] <lathiat_> and then prune that further
[11:00] <sistpoty> siretart: i also doubt that revu2 will be there before breezy will be out
[11:00] <siretart> sistpoty: jepp
[11:00] <Nafallo> lathiat++
[11:00] <slomo> lathiat_: sounds the best
[11:00] <ajmitch> yep
[11:00] <lathiat_> by pruning, check out the packages, see if they are in at least relatively good shape
[11:01] <ajmitch> since a blind mass import == DISASTER :)
[11:01] <lathiat_> compare sources to upstream
[11:01] <lathiat_> check all the scripts etc for security bugs
[11:01] <lathiat_> last thing we want to do is import a backdoor into breezy in some cool package
[11:01] <siretart> ok. I think we agreed
[11:01] <ajmitch> or some broken packages that accidentally does rm -rf / on remove
[11:01] <lathiat_> we'll also have to consider keeping them up to date after breezy
[11:01] <lathiat_> ajmitch: yeh, exactly
[11:02] <Yagisan> some of those things at apt-get.org aren't even redistributable
[11:02] <siretart> next?
[11:02] <Nafallo> could we have the sab on that aptgetorg meeting please? :-)
[11:02] <lathiat_> Yagisan: sure, thats what we need to prune out
[11:02] <ajmitch> Yagisan: I know, that's why we do license review as well
[11:02] <ajmitch> Nafallo: we can try & get him here
[11:02] <mvo> \sh: pong
[11:02] <ajmitch> mvo!
[11:02] <slomo> lathiat: how is the keeping up to date of these packages done? manual work? or automatic syncing?
[11:02] <\sh> mvo: apt-get.org :)
[11:02] <lathiat_> slomo: really needs to be manual i think to keep an eye on them
[11:02] <\sh> mvo: ogra told me, you worked on the scripts with dholbach?
[11:03] <lathiat_> slomo: just because it didnt contain problems before...
[11:03] <mvo> \sh: yes
[11:03] <mvo> ajmitch: hi!
[11:03] <mvo> something wrong with it?
[11:03] <\sh> mvo: ok...how is it working? 
[11:03] <ajmitch> mvo: the whole concept :)
[11:03] <Mitario> hey mvo :)
[11:03] <\sh> mvo: actually...we don't have the time and the power to do all reviewing of those packages and building the stuff, fixing for breezy
[11:03] <siretart> and how much manual work does it involve?
[11:03] <mvo> the whole concept of importing a random pile of (possilbe) junk?
[11:04] <Nafallo> mvo: (and backdoors)
[11:04] <Nafallo> ;-)
[11:04] <\sh> and old kernels
[11:04] <\sh> wow
[11:04] <siretart> ogra!
[11:04] <ajmitch> mvo: more or less
[11:04] <ajmitch> ogra: welcome back
[11:04] <lathiat_> siretart: get sources, compare to upstream, security/sanity check all the debian specific stuff, make sure it builds, check that its likely to be maintainable, do a license check and make sure its distributable
[11:04] <ajmitch> hi Mez 
[11:04] <lathiat_> siretart: preferebly check the author is likely to maintian them 
[11:04] <ajmitch> lathiat_: the only problem is there can be > 1000 packages there
[11:04] <ogra> no idea how long my line will work this time
[11:04] <lathiat_> ajmitch: yup
[11:04] <mvo> it's a sabdfl goal, so there is little room to argue. but it's certainly up to the reviewer to decide what to include and what not ...
[11:04] <lathiat_> ajmitch: so (what i just said) * 1000
[11:05] <lathiat_> ajmitch: i think we can chop the list down a lot tho
[11:05] <ajmitch> ogra: we're just talking about apt-get.org
[11:05] <ajmitch> and then your no NEW packages
[11:05] <lathiat_> ajmitch: without doing the whole process
[11:05] <lathiat_> just check out what the package is, some stuff like kernel stuff can probably just be thrown out
[11:05] <lathiat_> etc
[11:05] <ajmitch> lathiat_: throwing out the obvious crap?
[11:05] <lathiat_> ajmitch: yeh
[11:05] <lathiat_> ajmitch: and then the less obvious obvious crap
[11:05] <lathiat_> ajmitch: and then put effort into reviewing
[11:06] <mvo> I would start with the stuff that actually builds and looks interessting. that should be a fairly short list ;)
[11:06] <ajmitch> so we might only have 500 to review :)
[11:06] <lathiat_> right
[11:06] <ajmitch> mvo: I think that's about 10 :)
[11:06] <ogra> hmpf, i have a lag around 25sec
[11:06] <mvo> good start I guess :)
[11:06] <lathiat_> ogra: nice
[11:06] <\sh> mvo: x86 is no problem...but amd64/ppc this will be funny...without a working environment...
[11:06] <siretart> mvo: can I have a look at your apt-get.org scripts?
[11:06] <lathiat_> siretart: they are linked of AptGetOrg, are they not the right ones?
[11:07] <siretart> lathiat_: ah, moment
[11:07] <mvo> lathiat_: they should be the right ones, but we also have a baz repository
[11:08] <ajmitch> mmm, baz
[11:08] <mvo> dholbach will be back soon and looking over the list is one of his personal breezy goals
[11:08] <siretart> hmm
[11:08] <Yagisan> siretart: they won't grab anything in a "sarge" repo
[11:08] <mvo> \sh: we could arrange a test-building on a ppc machine I think
[11:09] <ajmitch> mvo: I've got a ppc box, but it might be a bit slow :)
[11:09] <ajmitch> the raw power of a 400MHz G3
[11:09] <lathiat_> bah ppc is outdated anyway
[11:09] <lathiat_> its all about intel now
[11:09] <Nafallo> ;-)
[11:09] <mvo> ajmitch: heh :) 
[11:09] <sistpoty> hm... does anyone know, whether pearpc or alikes could be used for test-environment?
[11:09] <Nafallo> AMD :-)
[11:09] <lathiat_> sistpoty: slow+++
[11:09] <Yagisan> sistpoty: No, I tried
[11:09] <lathiat_> sistpoty: and then some
[11:10] <bddebian> OK gang, sorry but have to run.  I'll read the logs :-)
[11:10] <ajmitch> sistpoty: maybe for breezy+12
[11:10] <\sh> bddebian: have fun
[11:10] <sistpoty> cya bddebian
[11:10] <slomo> ok, what exactly is breezy goal now? starting to work on the apt-get.org project or is this 1st priority and we have to do as much as possible?
[11:10] <lathiat_> transitions are first priority
[11:10] <mvo> the list was compiled with a amd64 as a build machine, so some basic checking of portability was done
[11:10] <lathiat_> including unmets
[11:11] <lathiat_> also reviewing fixed stuff
[11:11] <ajmitch> yes, first priority is getting stuff built that we already have
[11:11] <ajmitch> then we can look at stuff we don't have :)
[11:12] <ogra> note that apt-get.org is a sabdfl requirement, we should hendle it with as high priority as we can
[11:12] <siretart> ok
[11:12] <lathiat_> ogra: yes, but i still think transitions shoudl come first
[11:12] <\sh> ogra: first stablize the "already haves" then NEW apt-get
[11:12] <siretart> ogra: how does that fit to no NEW packages?
[11:12] <Nafallo> ogra: like after we does not have a broken universe? ;-)
[11:12] <lathiat_> siretart: sideways :)
[11:13] <ogra> siretart, i mean dont waste manpower in packaging funny new stuff... apt-get.org was in hoary, it should be in breezy as well
[11:13] <Nafallo> s/does/do/
[11:13] <\sh> ogra: should I talk about it with sabdfl...thx to all the transitions we had, we, as team, have not enough time for all the packages
[11:13] <siretart> ogra: aah. ok, now I understand
[11:14] <Nafallo> \sh: what about having the sab on the aptgetorg-meeting after the transitions?
[11:14] <mbreit> ogra: then uploading packages on revu is still okay?
[11:14] <ogra> note that dholbach did apt-get.org alone in three weeks for hoary, its a task a team of two or three can do relatively fast... 
[11:14] <siretart> right
[11:14] <siretart> so lets rediscuss this topic again in 2 weeks
[11:14] <mvo> dholbach will probably work fulltime on it for some days/weeks
[11:14] <siretart> we are busy enough with those 6 transitions
[11:14] <Nafallo> agreed
[11:15] <\sh> but building the packages is one thing, are they working as expected is the 2nd
[11:15] <ogra> mvo, yes, but mdz requested it to be done early because these packages come in external and should recieve more testing then last time as i understood it
[11:16] <mbreit> but again: so what's the opinion about uploading the packages which are already on revu? is that still okay?
[11:17] <ogra> in any case it think we shouldnt waste manpower to NEW stuff, if external people come with packages its nice to have them in revu, but they should be aware that their packages might not make breezy
[11:17] <mvo> ogra: agreed
[11:17] <ajmitch> ogra++
[11:17] <Yagisan> what is said packages are both on apt-get.org, and in revu ?
[11:17] <ajmitch> so spend less time reviewing on REVU, more time fixing?
[11:17] <ogra> mbreit, we need to draw a line anywhere
[11:17] <Yagisan> I can't be the only one
[11:18] <ogra> we should always have the best package.... but that draws morw time since you need to compare
[11:18] <siretart> ogra: I think its a bit unfair: ppl preparing packages on apt-get.org get packages in universe with one MOTU vote, and ppl using revu or wiki need 3 motus. I think that barrier should really be lowered
[11:18] <\sh> imho it's better to have packages in revu then on apt-get.org...so we have to encourage the maintainers to come to us...and not we to them
[11:18] <ajmitch> so what else do we have to talk about on this topic?
[11:18] <sistpoty> ++ \sh
[11:18] <lathiat_> siretart: thats next up
[11:19] <lathiat_> siretart: reducing to 2
[11:19] <slomo> \sh: ++
[11:19] <mbreit> I still don't see the point in giving packages on apt-get.org a so much higher priority then the ones on revu..
[11:19] <\sh> The reasoning behind this is obvious:
[11:19] <\sh>     *
[11:19] <\sh>       let us have a look at those packages, provide them through Ubuntu and make sure people don't have to add random repositories to their /etc/apt/sources.list.
[11:19] <ajmitch> mbreit: simple, it's a request from sabdfl :)
[11:19] <\sh> backports issue in the past was a good example (not the same but )
[11:19] <ogra> \sh, still apt-get.org is a sabdfl request to attract the apt-get.org maintainers to join us, he's very serious about that
[11:20] <Mitario> ajmitch, revolt ;-)
[11:20] <Yagisan> can only the active apt-get.org repos be checked ?
[11:20] <\sh> ogra: we don't want really kernel packages in universe which we never will use?
[11:20] <siretart> well, sabdfl's request is clear, his intention too
[11:20] <siretart> my proposal stands..
[11:21] <ajmitch> siretart: dropping the number of REVU votes required?
[11:21] <siretart> ajmitch: yes
[11:21] <ajmitch> or making every apt-get.org & revu review equal? :)
[11:21] <siretart> or that, but I don't think that was the intention of sabdfl
[11:21] <lathiat_> i think 2 is good
[11:21] <slomo> ajmitch: imho they should be handled equal... or revu should be handled with less votes... but well ;)
[11:22] <lathiat_> gives a second chance to pick up on things
[11:22] <ajmitch> lathiat_: yes, but apt-get.org imports would be too slow if they all required 2 MOTU votes
[11:22] <lathiat_> ajmitch: im talking about revu not apt-get
[11:22] <ajmitch> lathiat_: I know
[11:23] <lathiat_> apt-get shoudl be 1, but preferebly someone who knwos what theyre doing and not afraid to ask for opinions, esp security related
[11:23] <ajmitch> but I suggested equal voting
[11:23] <ajmitch> well dholbach knows what he is doing
[11:23] <lathiat_> yes i dont doubt that
[11:23] <Yagisan> but wouldn't apt-get.org be better quality, if two sets of eyes checked them out ?
[11:23] <ajmitch> the rest of us just don't have that much time to commit
[11:23] <siretart> revu reviewing is perhaps more easy and goes more quickly
[11:23] <siretart> I wouldn't insist on equal vote, but 3 is imo too high
[11:23] <ajmitch> at least with revu we have contact with the maintainers
[11:24] <siretart> and after all: everyone in the revu keyring can sponsor packages to revu!
[11:25] <sistpoty> i would go for 2 revu votes, just a stomache feeling however
[11:26] <siretart> any objections?
[11:26] <ajmitch> sistpoty: I'd be inclined to agree
[11:26] <lathiat_> nerp
[11:26] <Nafallo> 2 votes, we can always raise that number again :-)
[11:26] <slomo> ok, i'm for two votes... and when that doesn't work we talk about it then ;)
[11:27] <lathiat_> ok i think we're sold on that
[11:27] <siretart> ok. then let's have ogra agreed, when his dsl get's better
[11:27] <\sh> ogra: u as uber-motu :) give your sabdfl vote ,-)
[11:27] <lathiat_> i think thats it as far as the agenda goes
[11:28] <siretart> \sh: I think he is offline again :(
[11:28] <lathiat_> haha
[11:28] <siretart> there
[11:28] <lathiat_> timing++
[11:28] <lathiat_> its back
[11:28] <ajmitch> there's still jblack's singing & dancing demo
[11:28] <lathiat_> yes also the next meeting
[11:28] <siretart> lathiat_: 2 weeks
[11:28] <lathiat_> could the next meeting please be at leat +/- 4 hours of this one? or not? :)
[11:28] <siretart> jblack: ping?
[11:29] <jblack> Right here
[11:29] <siretart> cool! :)
[11:29] <\sh> ok...2005-09-07?
[11:29] <ajmitch> \sh: yes, what time?
[11:29] <\sh> i don't mind...I have holiday :)
[11:29] <ajmitch> :P
[11:29] <lathiat_> 1600, or 0000 on the 8th. :)
[11:30] <lathiat_> 1600 so ajmitch can get up at 4 :)
[11:30] <\sh> so
[11:30] <ajmitch> evil lathiat_ :P
[11:30] <\sh> lets say again: 22:00 UTC?
[11:30] <lathiat_> never!
[11:30] <lathiat_> bah
[11:30] <ajmitch> lathiat_: what, 6am too hard for you? ;)
[11:30] <lathiat_> oh well i have no uni on thursdays
[11:30] <lathiat_> \sh: ok
[11:30] <Mitario> hmm, late for us europeans ;)
[11:31] <lathiat_> we should just rotate the meeting 8 hours each meeting :)
[11:31] <\sh> Mitario: think I have to be back in office tomorrow morning at 4:00 UTC :) latest 
[11:31] <Mitario> 6:00
[11:32] <Mitario> but don't mind ;)
[11:32] <\sh> ok....that's setteled
[11:32] <\sh> 2005-09-07 22:00 UTC?
[11:32] <lathiat_> ok
[11:32] <lathiat_> that works
[11:32] <Mitario> fine by me :)
[11:32] <sistpoty> no objections
[11:32] <ajmitch> if we must :)
[11:32] <siretart> ok
[11:32] <Mitario> too bad I didn't follow this whole meeting :( sorry for that guys
[11:32] <lathiat_> trust ajmitch to spoil the fun
[11:33] <lathiat_> Mitario: you can read my super-cool summary
[11:33] <Mitario> altough I unsderstood bout 60% of it ;)
[11:33] <Mitario> lathiat, ok great :)
[11:33] <lathiat_> wonder i if i can fit it in 384 bytes
[11:33] <\sh> i updated motumeeting page
[11:33] <\sh> jblack: your stage :)
[11:33] <jblack> Ok guys. 
[11:33] <Mitario> will the todo be updated priority-wise?
[11:33] <jblack> First and foremost: I think ubuntu should return to its roots -- and then some -- by including an issue of Playboy with each cd release.
[11:34] <lathiat_> you know
[11:34] <lathiat_> i think your onto something there
[11:34] <jblack> Now that I've got your attention.. :) 
[11:34] <Mitario> w00t
[11:34] <Nafallo> lol
[11:34] <siretart> absolutley :)
[11:34] <jblack> For those of you that don't know me, I'm James Blackwell. I've been a free software developer for quite some time, currently work for canonical. I have a variety of resposibilities at work, one of which is bazaar adoption and mindshare.
[11:35] <jblack> In personal life, I'm a single father and _very_ heady coffee drinker. :) 
[11:35] <jblack> I asked Ogra, who was kind enough to accept, for this opportunity to speak with you guys quickly (less than 10 minutes, ajmitch)... 
[11:36] <jblack> As many of you probably know, canonical sponsors ubuntu, launchpad and bazaar. 
[11:36] <jblack> These are all good things. (If you want proof, take a look at the crack team we have sitting here right now for MOTU)
[11:37] <jblack> What I need to do, and hope you guys can help me with, is talk to projects, particularly smaller ones, about Bazaar.
[11:37] <siretart> so you need testers?
[11:37] <jblack> You guys are pretty well connected in the free software arena, and would know of projects that could really use bazaar. 
[11:37] <Mitario> I guess just marketing?
[11:38] <janimo> jblack, do you import svn archives on request?
[11:38] <jblack> janimo: We sure do.
[11:38] <lathiat_> jblack: who do we talk to about that?
[11:38] <lathiat_> jblack: (I assume we're talking about the regular sync thing)
[11:38] <jblack> lathiat: Any of the bazaar team. I'm probably best. 
[11:39] <janimo> I'd like xfce in arch.ubuntu.com :)
[11:39] <lathiat_> jblack: svn://svn.0pointer.de/avahi thanks. :)
[11:39] <jblack> Anyways, over the next couple weeks I'll be talking with each one of you. I'll generally ask two questions from each of you: 
[11:39] <Mitario> let him go on with the talk :)
[11:39] <siretart> jblack: can you explain in short about the status of hct? I see there is a mailing list, but it is empty
[11:39] <jblack> 1. what sort of projects are you aware of/invovled in that could potentailly benefit from bazaar.
[11:40] <jblack> 2. would you be willing to introduce me to these people in a friendly sort of way, so that I can talk to them, give them the good and the bad. 
[11:40] <ajmitch> hm, tough sell
[11:41] <jblack> That's my problem. :) 
[11:41] <ajmitch> getting people to switch is a big move
[11:41] <Mitario> hmm, I would happy to switch my own projects..
[11:41] <lathiat_> yeh note the "smaller projects" part :)
[11:41] <Mitario> and some of my friends
[11:41] <lathiat_> easier to convince
[11:41] <jblack> Yeah, it can. People get used to a certain way of doing things, and don't like the risk of change.
[11:41] <lathiat_> jblack: tried kde? :)
[11:41] <Mitario> haha
[11:41] <jblack> Its part of my job to make it easy for them to change without feeling worried. 
[11:41] <ajmitch> hence the number of people still using CVS :)
[11:41] <lathiat_> ugh cvs
[11:41] <jblack> lathiat: Using it now, as a matter of fact. :) 
[11:42] <Mitario> jblack, hmm, that's cool
[11:42] <lathiat_> jblack: ha, funny. ;p
[11:42] <ajmitch> people don't often like to learn new tools, either
[11:42] <\sh> jblack: first of all, thx for your time :) but, how do u want to fight against the software, which is moving from old style CVS towards new stylish SVN?
[11:42] <Yagisan> Do you have a "bazaar for dummies" ? 
[11:42] <jblack> The ideal targets are projects that either A) dislike the revision control system that they are using, B) projects using CVS or SVN, and C) projects not using an rcs at all.
[11:42] <janimo> especially that baz has tla legacy of worst UI on earth according to some
[11:42] <jblack> Yagisan: I'd be happy to walk you through it, *personally*, though you'll owe me. :) 
[11:43] <jblack> Ok. As promised, less than 10 minutes. :) 
[11:43] <ajmitch> Yagisan: put aside some beer money :)
[11:43] <jblack> The rest of this is just q&a until people get bored, or you guys drive me to drink. :) 
[11:43] <Nafallo> siretart: lol
[11:43] <ajmitch> I'm sure it won't take much driving :)
[11:43] <Mitario> jblack, wow, that's great, i would love to get some more instruction about baz/bzr some time
[11:43] <jblack> Ok. the first question was along the lines of 'what is bazaars status' 
[11:43] <\sh> jback: single fathers do not drink ,-) (coffee is ok btw...I'm as well a caffeine junky)
[11:43] <janimo> jblack, would something like first importing and tracking 3rd party stuff in baz
[11:44] <janimo> and then trying to convince the devels on eby one?
[11:44] <lathiat_> jblack: can bazaar keep track of where you merged last and figure out what to try and merge (if you want it to just try to 'merge all')
[11:44] <ajmitch> jblack: the other question that people will ask is 'why should I switch'?
[11:44] <ajmitch> lathiat_: sure
[11:44] <jblack> janimo: As a matter of fact, we have 500 imported right now. When I'm done here, I'm going to double check the gnome stuff is imported. 
[11:44] <lathiat_> good
[11:44] <lathiat_> cus its pissing me off with svn
[11:44] <lathiat_> having to tell it what to merge
[11:44] <ajmitch> lathiat_: it merges revisions & keeps track of them, unlike svn
[11:45] <ajmitch> I've mainly been using bazaar-ng for my small needs
[11:45] <siretart> jblack: imported where? is there a list of imported projects?
[11:45] <jblack> Current status is thus: Bazaar has two major versions right now: a 1.x and a 2.x. The 1.x is derived from tla with a metric-crapload of fixes. :) 
[11:45] <jblack> sirtart: You can see them at http://bazaar.ubuntu.com, or search for them at http://www.sourcecontrol.net
[11:46] <jblack> Bazaar 1.x is a _huge_ improvement over tla. It performs quite a bit better, and has a much cleaner interface. HOwever, the old underlying models are still present. 
[11:46] <jblack> Bazaar 2.x is a full redesign. It keeps the distributed nature of bazaar (Woohoo!) and drops all of the complicated crap that everyone hated (double woohoo!)
[11:46] <ajmitch> 2.x is still immature, has missing functionality, but is still really good & usable 
[11:46] <jblack> However, bazaar 2.x is currently at 0.0.6... so, its not entirely there yet.
[11:46] <Mitario> so 2.x is not derived from tla anymore?
[11:46] <ajmitch> Mitario: rewrite & redesign, in python
[11:47] <\sh> bazaar 2.x was this python rewrite?
[11:47] <Mitario> ok
[11:47] <\sh> ah yes
[11:47] <jblack> No. 2.x is a full fresh start. We kept the good stuf, and threw out the crap. :) 
[11:47] <ajmitch> \sh: more a redesign than a rewrite
[11:47] <jblack> We took lessons from tla, bazaar, monitone... even bitkeeper.
[11:47] <ajmitch> & the current hot favourites, git & darcs :)
[11:47] <\sh> ajmitch: let me take a guess.. 1.x is incompatible to 2.x?
[11:47] <ajmitch> \sh: currently, yes
[11:48] <lathiat_> Well, I'll be imprtessed when monotone maintains its tree with bzr. :)
[11:48] <jblack> 1.x does not interoperate from 2.x. However, we promise that there's a migration path.
[11:48] <\sh> jblack: so right now, baz should be used until bzr becomes stable...
[11:48] <jblack> So if you go to bazaar 1.x today, you'll be able to convert to bazaar 2.x when its ready (it'll be getting close on halloween (oct 31), and it should be ready on new year's)
[11:49] <jblack> \sh: It depends upon the project, and what the project needs, really.
[11:49] <Mitario> is bzr enough for simple 1-person project which is just stored on some remote server?
[11:49] <jblack> For small, independant projects, bazaar 2 is already probably useful. 
[11:49] <jblack> For multi-team projects, it probably needs a bit more
[11:49] <ajmitch> Mitario: no remote push as yet, you'd need to rsync your tree
[11:50] <Mitario> ah
[11:50] <Mitario> because I always work on my projects from home and from work
[11:50] <\sh> jblack: when I see todays projects (small ones or even bigger ones like kde) I would like to see an easy way for distributed repositories (like bitkeeper)
[11:50] <Mitario> and I place them on the work server
[11:50] <Mitario> so I can update the code from there
[11:50] <Mitario> so I would have to use baz for that
[11:50] <jblack> The key part, though, is I'd *love* for you guys to introduce me ("hey, here's this guy jblack. He works on bazaar. I think you and he should talk") sort of stuff. 
[11:51] <ajmitch> "and he plays a mean game of Mao"
[11:51] <jblack> I'm no kinnison
[11:51] <siretart> jblack: can you comment on hct? what is it? whats the status?
[11:51] <jblack> Here's what I can say about hct... 
[11:51] <\sh> jblack: I played with baz a bit...and when I remember one thing,than how to store the repository on a server...via webdav, right?
[11:52] <ajmitch> \sh: or sftp
[11:52] <jblack> It looks really frigging cool, it looks really awesomely promising, and where it sits today exactly, I have no clue. :) \
[11:52] <Mitario> \sh, i thought you could just sftp the server with archive-mirror?
[11:52] <jblack> I'll get with Scott though and get an update of its status.
[11:52] <Mitario> what IS hct actually? sorry :)
[11:52] <jblack> hct is the hypothetical changeset tool.
[11:52] <siretart> lol
[11:52] <Mitario> uhh right..
[11:52] <siretart> I love that name :)
[11:53] <ajmitch> deeply tied in with launchpad, I believe
[11:53] <Mitario> very descriptive ;-)
[11:53] <jblack> Once hct is complete, its going to change the life of every single ubuntu developer, and probably the life of most distro developers over time. 
[11:53] <ajmitch> allows for _easy_patching & merging of packages
[11:53] <Mitario> ah cool
[11:53] <jblack> Basically, yeah. When you get right down to it, its a package patch tracker that's built just to ease tracking upstreams.
[11:54] <\sh> siretart: can we arrange a webfrontend for baz/bzr in trac/revu2? ,-)
[11:54] <Mitario> sorry guys, I have to get to school tomorrow
[11:54] <lathiat_> revu2 with launchpad+bzr integration FTW
[11:54] <Mitario> jblack, thanks for the explanation and question answering
[11:54] <siretart> \sh: first I want to understand how to USE baz
[11:54] <\sh> Mitario: cu :) and thx for attending :)
[11:54] <mvo> bye Mitario 
[11:54] <jblack> mitario: Thanks for hanging out so long. Good luck in class.
[11:54] <Mitario> jblack, is it allright to come with you for questions?
[11:54] <\sh> siretart: there is a good howto
[11:54] <Mitario> or a quick-guide?
[11:54] <jblack> (I suggest white eye shadow on the eyelids with fake eyes penciled in)
[11:54] <siretart> \sh: where?
[11:54] <Mitario> jblack, hehe ;)
[11:55] <jblack> Absolutely! 
[11:55] <siretart> bye Mitario 
[11:55] <sistpoty> cya Mitario
[11:55] <jblack> Anybody that thinks they can't approach me at any time for *anything* should approach me and tell me why. :) 
[11:55] <Mitario> bye everyone, i'll be here tomorrow for some quick MOTU start guides, if that's allright :)
[11:55] <Mitario> eh, in -motu i mean
[11:56] <\sh> siretart: http://bazaar.canonical.com/
[11:56] <Mitario> cheers, gn
[11:56] <siretart> jblack: is there some baz channel where e.g. package maintainers can ask stupid questions about how to use baz?
[11:56] <\sh> siretart: http://bazaar.canonical.com/HelpForBeginners
[11:56] <jblack> There's several, and any of them will work.
[11:57] <\sh> forget the 2nd link ;-)
[11:57] <siretart> hrhr
[11:57] <lathiat_> \sh: err, i know how to use a wiki ;p
[11:57] <lathiat_> haha
[11:57] <lathiat_> one thing i liked about b az
[11:57] <jblack> There's #bazaar for 1.x (and eventually 2.x), #bzr for bazaar 2. I also hang out in #arch (who I'm trying to slowly migrate to #bazaar)
[11:57] <lathiat_> i can changelog on the fly
[11:57] <lathiat_> with svn i have to write them down
[11:57] <lathiat_> annoys the crap out of me
[11:57] <\sh> jblack: most of the stuff from baz 1.x comes from gnu arch..so the handling is just like this tool
[11:57] <jblack> I'm also happy with private messages.
[11:57] <lathiat_> or go back and review my diff
[11:58] <jblack> \sh: Its similiar, though some of the worst parts have been taken out.
[11:58] <jblack> For example, star-merge was replaced by a mesh merge, which lets anybody just merge with anybody else (its not flawless though) 
[11:58] <jblack> Also, there's a branch command. 
[11:58] <jblack> A lot of those "why does it do what I say, not what I mean" sort of stuff has been fixed up. _loads_ of that.
[11:59] <\sh> jblack: ok...lets say, there is a SVN repos
[11:59] <\sh> jblack: and some devs are using a local baz repos but the main line will stay with svn, for web display etc. (as I said, all repos web apps are moving to svn, because it's easy)
[11:59] <jblack> I think we can agree there is _a_ SVN repos. :) 
[12:00] <\sh> how do they merge there local repos to the main one? and I think that's the worst part
[12:00] <jblack> Ahh. How do you handle the merging between the two disimiliar archives? 
[12:00] <\sh> jblack: bingo :)
[12:00] <jblack> Yeah.
[12:01] <jblack> The same way third parties normally have to merge with svn. 
[12:01] <jblack> They hand a diff off to a project god somewhere. 
[12:01] <jblack> If they happen to be a comittable svn user as well, they can probably sneak through dual managed trees as well. :)
[12:01] <\sh> ok manual work most of the time...
[12:02] <\sh> loosing the history as well
[12:02] <\sh> -o
[12:02] <siretart> maybe a stupid question, but still: I see that baz is great at branching but what cool features does it have for resolving conflicts?
[12:02] <jblack> We support three way diff markers, of course.
[12:03] <jblack> so if there's a conflicted file, you just look at the two conflicted parts in context and pick the best one. 
[12:03] <siretart> like this 3way mergetool to bitkeeper?
[12:03] <jblack> We also have a conflict resolution tracker built in (I wrote that one. :)
[12:03] <jblack> So you can tell baz whether or not you've fixed a conflict.
[12:03] <jblack> Not like the integrated editor one, no. 
[12:04] <siretart> ah, ok. I see
[12:04] <jblack> A three way conflict is easy to see. 
[12:04] <jblack> It goes something like this:
[12:04] <jblack> code
[12:04] <jblack> <<<<<
[12:04] <jblack> conflict 1
[12:04] <jblack> [12:04] <jblack> conflict 2
[12:04] <jblack> >>>>
[12:04] <jblack> more code
[12:04] <\sh> like cvs
[12:04] <jblack> You edit the file, and you see that right at the place of the conflict.
[12:04] <jblack> Yeah, I think cvs has something similiar.
[12:05] <siretart> mmh, would it also be possible to make use of external mergers, like xemacs or xxdiff?
[12:05] <jblack> I'd like to mention that CVS traveled into the future (relative to them), and stole the idea from us.
[12:05] <\sh> adding / deleting directories is also a topic..svn does it correct, removes directories when u want it...and not like cvs..how about baz/bzr
[12:06] <jblack> If the tools can handle it, then it should work fine. 
[12:06] <jblack> adding and removing dirs works great in bazaar. if you wipe out a directory, its deleted.
[12:06] <jblack> if yo uadd a directory, you baz add it.