[05:13] <jsgotangco> hi all
[05:14] <Burgundavia> salut
[05:15] <jsgotangco> hey Burgundavia hows it going
[05:15] <Burgundavia> tired
[05:15] <Burgundavia> busy today at work
[05:15] <jsgotangco> ahh nice :)
[05:15] <jsgotangco> i'll not bug you then on QuickTour
[05:15] <jsgotangco> :)
[05:16] <Burgundavia> going to work on it tonight
[05:16] <Burgundavia> after I dig out from email
[05:16] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, what do you think of creating a sneak preview article on 5.10
[05:16] <Burgundavia> 'bout half done that (of 300
[05:16] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what do you mean?
[05:16] <Burgundavia> the quick tour is that, no?
[05:16] <jsgotangco> well yeah
[05:16] <jsgotangco> i guess so
[05:16] <jsgotangco> nvm
[05:17] <Burgundavia> plus we really don't have the time and people to create anything else right now
[05:17] <jsgotangco> i have colony 3 i can whip up a small article this weekend and show what's new
[05:18] <jsgotangco> hi robitaille 
[05:18] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, honestly, best to put that effort into the quicktour
[05:18] <Burgundavia> I am really worried we are not going to get it done in time
[05:19] <jsgotangco> ok so should i wait for your commit or i make a draft later?
[05:19] <Burgundavia> work on the wiki
[05:19] <Burgundavia> I will start committed RSN
[05:19] <jsgotangco> okay
[05:20] <jsgotangco> i like working offline somethings though
[05:20] <Burgundavia> then write offline, no problem
[05:20] <Burgundavia> I find the best time to write marketing is away fromt eh computer 
[05:20] <robitaille> hi jsgotangco 
[05:21] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, we'll let JaneW handle project management next time and make sure whoever goes to Montreal, there will be a documentation BOF
[05:21] <jsgotangco> we'll make it part of the whole project process overall
[05:21] <jsgotangco> its kinda hard to be separated from everyone
[05:22] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I should be in Montreal. I don't see any reason why not
[05:22] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, you're a shoo-in i dont know about anyone else
[05:22] <jsgotangco> maybe those in north america
[05:22] <Burgundavia> matt galvin maybe
[05:22] <Burgundavia> not very expensive NA <--> Europe
[05:23] <jsgotangco> that's nice to know
[05:24] <Burgundavia> robitaille is not going to apply (no time off work). Neither is Sean, from what I understand
[05:24] <Burgundavia> you and rob^ are unlikely, do to location
[05:24] <Burgundavia> s/do/due
[05:24] <robitaille> got to pay the rent somehow :)
[05:24] <Burgundavia> so do I
[05:24] <Burgundavia> but I don't have kids and a wife
[05:24] <jsgotangco> my application sponsorship would be an uphill battle
[05:25] <judax> greetings
[05:25] <jsgotangco> judax, hey
[05:25] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I hope you come, just so that we can meet and coordinate
[05:25] <jsgotangco> i want to make sure we'll write specs this time
[05:25] <Burgundavia> indeed
[05:25] <Burgundavia> so the mess with rob^ and myself won't happen again
[05:26] <Burgundavia> I also want to drop a bunch of docs
[05:26] <jsgotangco> i want to push UbuntuHelp actually
[05:26] <Burgundavia> yes
[05:26] <Burgundavia> and drop the Admin/User guide
[05:26] <Burgundavia> the wiki can fill those holes
[05:27] <jsgotangco> how long is Victoria to Montreal by plane?
[05:27] <jsgotangco> an hour or 2?
[05:27] <Burgundavia> 4
[05:27] <jsgotangco> wow
[05:27] <Burgundavia> Canada is a big country
[05:27] <Burgundavia> and Montreal is not even the extreme east of Canada
[05:27] <jsgotangco> is that on a 747?
[05:28] <Burgundavia> a 737 or smaller airbus
[05:28] <Burgundavia> not enough traffic to justify big planes
[05:28] <jsgotangco> well i can imagine BC is on the west side and quebec on central
[05:28] <jsgotangco> when i went to sydney it was 8 hours on a 737
[05:30] <robitaille> jsgotangco: I once did a trip Victoria- St Johns newfoundland; so from tip to tip west-east, left very early in the morning arrived very late at night; 
[05:30] <Burgundavia> you also have 4.5 hours of timechange working against you
[05:31] <jsgotangco> if i ever do come, i'll be a few hours younger for sure
[05:31] <robitaille> exactly.  Air Canada could manage to do it. At the time Canadian Airlines was offering cheap seats, but you couldn't even do it in the same day with their schedule
[05:32] <robitaille> It's actually probably cheaper in a lot of cases to fly London-Montreal than Victoria-Montreal
[05:32] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, how long was your flight when you went to Mataro?
[05:32] <Burgundavia> hmm
[05:32] <robitaille> a lot of discount between Europe and Montreal and Toronto
[05:33] <Burgundavia> I went Victoria --> Vancouver --> Minn/St. Paul --> London --> Barcelona
[05:33] <Burgundavia> each leg was 4 to 6 hours
[05:33] <Burgundavia> except for Vic -> Van
[05:33] <Burgundavia> that is 25 minutes
[05:33] <jsgotangco> Minn?
[05:34] <Burgundavia> Minneapolis
[05:34] <jsgotangco> wow
[05:34] <jsgotangco> stange that Vancouver didnt have a flight to London direct
[05:35] <Burgundavia> they did
[05:35] <robitaille> they do. but you can't always get a seat
[05:35] <Burgundavia> it was cheaper to go that way
[05:35] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[05:35] <Burgundavia> Minn/St. Paul is the hub of Northwest
[05:35] <jsgotangco> right
[05:35] <Burgundavia> not a bad airport actually
[05:35] <Burgundavia> and Northwest isn't a bad airline
[05:36] <Burgundavia> Ryan was total shite though
[05:36] <Burgundavia> felt like being a plastic plane, and I ended up only saving about $20
[05:36] <jsgotangco> northwest has good planes
[05:37] <jsgotangco> but the best planes for me are still singapore airlines and emirates
[05:37] <Burgundavia> yes
[05:38] <jsgotangco> i once got to ride a propeller plane in malaysia i was so scared
[05:38] <jsgotangco> i think the plane was like 35 years old
[05:40] <Burgundavia> back on topic, someone needs to get snapping on the faqguide as default front page
[05:41] <Burgundavia> should we contact jdub for help about that?
[05:41] <Burgundavia> it should be done by the preview
[05:41] <jsgotangco> sure tranformed to html already?
[05:41] <Burgundavia> no idea
[05:41] <jsgotangco> the faqguide is profiled it wont render to Yelp correctly
[05:42] <Burgundavia> hmm
[05:42] <Burgundavia> then that needs to be fixed
[05:42] <jsgotangco> it will show both Ubuntu/Kubuntu
[05:42] <Burgundavia> the transformation to HTML needs to split into 2 docs
[05:42] <jsgotangco> we have a scheduled meet tommorow at 14UTC
[05:42] <Burgundavia> ugh
[05:42] <Burgundavia> I thought we need
[05:43] <Burgundavia> s/need/did
[05:43] <Burgundavia> (that was an odd typo)
[05:43] <jsgotangco> mgalvin can fill in to the packaging 
[05:44] <Burgundavia> ok, can you fire off an email to the list about that?
[05:44] <jsgotangco> the meeting? yes i am planning to do it after lunch
[05:45] <Burgundavia> ok
[05:45] <Burgundavia> at the meeting we can discuss the technical details on faqguide as default I guess
[05:45] <jsgotangco> let me add that to the wiki now
[05:48] <robitaille> tell me about it;  that laptop is a sink of time.  I'm behind everything else online
[05:48] <Burgundavia> glad mine mostly works, I will do a major bug filing later on the minor stuff
[05:49] <Burgundavia> you know, almost everyday the fonts look different in FF
[05:49] <Burgundavia> not in any other app, just there
[05:49] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i noticed
[05:49] <robitaille> jsgotangco:  I'm doing it later tonight
[05:49] <jsgotangco> the wiki fonts look kind of washed now..
[05:49] <Burgundavia> it is because FF is actually a really shitty program
[05:51] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, what does Fn+F1 do to your A5
[05:51] <Burgundavia> lock screen, but does nothing
[05:51] <jsgotangco> how about Fn+F8
[05:51] <Burgundavia> and on windows it doesn't even call the real windows lock screen util
[05:52] <Burgundavia> wireless on/off, unknown if it works
[05:52] <jsgotangco> it doesnt
[05:52] <Burgundavia> ok
[05:52] <jsgotangco> oh wait
[05:52] <Burgundavia> our laptops have mostly the same keys
[05:53] <jsgotangco> it frickin works
[05:53] <jsgotangco> holy crap it did work
[05:54] <jsgotangco> if i do it, the notification shows that its disconnected
[05:54] <Burgundavia> cool
[05:54] <jsgotangco> i turn it back on and i get the full signal
[05:54] <Burgundavia> what notification?
[05:55] <jsgotangco> i mean the network monitor (i added one for eth1)
[05:55] <Burgundavia> ah
[05:55] <jsgotangco> i dont think bluetooth as a monitor of sorts
[05:56] <jsgotangco> bluetooth seems to be turned on by default (no idea)
[06:00] <jsgotangco> would it be a good idea to subscribe to the whole wiki
[06:01] <Burgundavia> 30/40 messages a day?
[06:01] <jsgotangco> thats not so bad
[06:02] <robitaille> jsgotangco:  it gets busy.  325 messages in the last 2 days
[06:02] <jsgotangco> woooo
[06:02] <Burgundavia> the wiki is only getting busier
[06:02] <jsgotangco> how do you subscribe to the whole wiki?
[06:02] <robitaille> it used to be 30/40....before the laptop team
[06:03] <Burgundavia> yah
[06:03] <robitaille> subscrube to .*
[06:03] <jsgotangco> i can just make a separate email account
[06:03] <robitaille> filter to its own folder will do nicely
[06:03] <robitaille> then I quickly scan, usually once a day to see if anything is worth looking at
[06:04] <jsgotangco> gmail doesnt have folders only tags
[06:04] <robitaille> in that context, tags = folder
[06:04] <Burgundavia> yes it does
[06:04] <Burgundavia> yes can remove it from the inbox
[06:05] <robitaille> a lot of MOTU stuff on the wiki in the last 24 hours
[06:05] <jsgotangco> bah
[06:05] <jsgotangco> you need Slipknot
[06:05] <Burgundavia> my brain is just about shot already
[06:05] <Burgundavia> Beethoven has no words
[06:06] <jsgotangco> he's pretty stoned back then
[06:06] <jsgotangco> we just call it classical now
[06:06] <jsgotangco> but back then he was the crack
[06:08] <Burgundavia> what is the scope of gnome-keyring?
[06:09] <Burgundavia> by default it does mounted shares only?
[06:09] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, where is that?
[06:09] <Burgundavia> the thing that pops up when you mount an ftp share
[06:09] <jsgotangco> hmm
[06:09] <jsgotangco> is it 2.12 specific?
[06:09] <Burgundavia> no
[06:10] <jsgotangco> Places -> Connect to Server ?
[06:15] <robitaille> jsgotangco: yes.  Then you can mount a ftp, sftp, etc
[06:16] <robitaille> it's an old thing.  I do it in gnome 2.6 at work
[06:17] <Burgundavia> ok, take a look at the Quick Tour now
[06:18] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, add on OOo about the new OOo Base
[06:19] <Burgundavia> ah yes
[06:19] <jsgotangco> and launchpad integration
[06:20] <jsgotangco> hmm also language selector
[06:21] <Burgundavia> already there
[06:21] <Burgundavia> check under the rough work section
[06:22] <jsgotangco> ahh right i was just looking at the boxes
[06:23] <jsgotangco> OOo2 and evolution are supposed to have tighter integration but it doesnt seem to work over here
[06:23] <Burgundavia> what is this Get Help online thing in LP integration
[06:25] <Burgundavia> not going to promote it right now
[06:25] <jsgotangco> hmm add SMEG
[06:26] <Burgundavia> menu editing a feature
[06:26] <Burgundavia> not really something we market around
[06:27] <jsgotangco> you can just put a blurb in Easy customization, the app is ubuntu-specific anyways
[06:27] <Burgundavia> hmm
[06:31] <jsgotangco> Send To add another needless click..
[06:35] <jsgotangco> good luck..it will look good but not as what you envision
[06:35] <Burgundavia> what is new and cool in Rhythmbox
[06:35] <jsgotangco> docbook isnt for formatting
[06:35] <Burgundavia> maybe then we just do it in HTML
[06:36] <jsgotangco> much better
[06:36] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, its actually possible in docbook, but with wicked css
[06:36] <jsgotangco> and not entirely sure of yelp's css
[06:37] <Burgundavia> I will get my CSS-fooed in brother to help me tomorrow night then
[06:38] <Burgundavia> if we do it in HTML, I need to figure out a way to do it in PDF as well
[06:39] <jsgotangco> hmmm do it in OOo?
[06:39] <jsgotangco> we can probably use Draw
[06:39] <Burgundavia> html2ps
[06:39] <jsgotangco> or Inkscape
[06:39] <Burgundavia> and then ps2pdf
[06:40] <Burgundavia> or htmldoc
[06:41] <Burgundavia> can you do po files from html?
[06:41] <jsgotangco> i have no idea
[06:42] <jsgotangco> for i18n?
[06:42] <Burgundavia> ya
[06:53] <Burgundavia> I need some words to promote the GIMP
[06:57] <jsgotangco> GIMP is too complicated
[06:57] <jsgotangco> (for most people)
[06:58] <jsgotangco> it would have been a different story if we had F-Spot and it is completed
[06:58] <Burgundavia> gimp for image editing, dammit
[06:59] <Burgundavia> f-spot is totally different app for a different purpose
[06:59] <jsgotangco> f-spot will have some editing functions
[07:00] <Burgundavia> yes, but it will not replace the gimp
[07:00] <jsgotangco> majority of desktop users have no need for filters and channels
[07:00] <Burgundavia> yes, but the marketing doc must reach everybody
[07:01] <Burgundavia> honestly, to most people, power image editing is something that costs hundreds of dollars
[07:01] <Burgundavia> not something included, by default, for free
[07:01] <jsgotangco> well yes
[07:01] <Burgundavia> notice what I said about easy software installation?
[07:01] <jsgotangco> but we can't say we have a Photoshop 4 alternative when Photoshop is already at version 7 or 8
[07:01] <Burgundavia> "... at no cost"
[07:01] <Burgundavia> GIMP is different and almost as powerful
[07:02] <jsgotangco> im aware of that but people will still compare no matter what
[07:02] <jsgotangco> that's why there was a gimp skin to make it look like photoshop
[07:02] <jsgotangco> wow i didnt notice active windows blink
[07:02] <jsgotangco> at the taskbar
[07:02] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:03] <Burgundavia> the gimp and inkscape are the kind of apps that appeal to the certain set of users
[07:03] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, GIMP doesn't even install a help document by default
[07:03] <Burgundavia> as if we can make them say "wow!" about ubuntu, then that is cool
[07:03] <Burgundavia> yes, I realize that
[07:03] <Burgundavia> I don't understand why you don't want to talk about it
[07:04] <jsgotangco> i don't mind talking about it, i just don't want a document that is too specific to segment that probably 80% of users dont really use
[07:04] <jsgotangco> wow that was good english
[07:05] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:05] <jsgotangco> it is probably better if we add gimp, inkscape, and whatever that is in Main that is about image/multimedia in one section
[07:06] <Burgundavia> inkscape is not installed by default
[07:06] <Burgundavia> I wish it was
[07:06] <jsgotangco> is it in the CD?
[07:06] <jsgotangco> hmm
[07:06] <jsgotangco> i dont think so
[07:06] <Burgundavia> no
[07:07] <jsgotangco> the graphics menu isn't really interesting to begin with
[07:08] <Burgundavia> where did evince go?
[07:08] <jsgotangco> its not in the menu but PDFs open up with it
[07:08] <Burgundavia> hmm
[07:08] <Burgundavia> why did they remove it from the menus?
[07:09] <jsgotangco> no idea (xpdf is nowhere in sight either)
[07:24] <jblack> Hi guys. 
[07:24] <Burgundavia> hey
[07:24] <jsgotangco> hi jblack 
[07:24] <Madpilot> hi everyone
[07:24] <jsgotangco> jblack, Sept. 10 - PPV!
[07:24] <jblack> So, I bet there's probably a good reason. :) 
[07:24] <Burgundavia> historical
[07:24] <jblack> jsgotangco: PPV? Pay Per View? 
[07:25] <Burgundavia> one of the old doc team members set up an offsite svn repo
[07:25] <jblack> any other big reasons? 
[07:25] <Burgundavia> inertia?
[07:25] <Burgundavia> there is some confusion over exactly what baz brings us
[07:25] <jsgotangco> yes, and the other ones that came in are svn users
[07:25] <Burgundavia> and the one burning question I have is, this
[07:26] <Burgundavia> What branch gets released as "ubuntu help" and who controls that branch?
[07:26] <jblack> in a hypotethical bazaar context? 
[07:26] <Burgundavia> more of a social issue, but I wondered what you thought of it
[07:26] <Burgundavia> ya
[07:26] <jblack> Yeah. We've had that question before on other projects, and have a pretty good answer.
[07:27] <jsgotangco> i've used Baz with mpt and i got confused on that as well
[07:27] <jblack> What we normally do is setup something called pqm (that stands for patch queue manager). You could imagine pqm as an overgrown procmail 
[07:28] <Burgundavia> and people push to there?
[07:28] <jblack> That pqm is responsible for maintining the official branch. Then pqm is taught about good people (typically gpg signed emails), which can instruct pqm what,who what, where to do things on the archive's behalf.
[07:29] <Burgundavia> the archive being the one that is "ubuntu help", in this context
[07:29] <jblack> Theres some good side effects to that too, of course, such as being able to run doc tests.... 
[07:29] <jblack> Are there any hard core people subversion people involved in ubuntu docs? 
[07:29] <jsgotangco> not lately
[07:30] <jblack> They absolutely love the tech and would fall on their swords..
[07:30] <Burgundavia> no
[07:30] <Burgundavia> I can already think of someone who would benefit ( rob^ )
[07:30] <jsgotangco> i've tried it and i like it
[07:30] <Burgundavia> so have I
[07:30] <Burgundavia> (as much as I like any command-line app0
[07:31] <jsgotangco> the acid test is on archive-mirror
[07:31] <Burgundavia> jblack, how are you guys doing at svn imports (saving history, etc.)
[07:31] <jblack> jsgotangco: Just so happens that i run the supermirror. The supermirror can give push archives to anybody, if that's a sticking point. 
[07:31] <jblack> burgundavia: Pretty good. 
[07:32] <jsgotangco> jblack, it segfaults
[07:32] <jblack> Sometimes we have to prop up a sagging wall here or there, but usually we get things thorugh. 
[07:32] <jblack> jsgotangco: What segfaults? 
[07:32] <jsgotangco> archive-mirror to the super mirror
[07:32] <jsgotangco> when mpt was teaching me
[07:32] <jblack> That's horrible. 
[07:33] <jsgotangco> i have yet to do a bug
[07:33] <jblack> I'll make a note on that -- on _paper_. Thats important 
[07:33] <jsgotangco> i can replicate it
[07:33] <Burgundavia> jblack, we spoke at Mataro about baz. But then my life got in the way and I didn't do much with the doc team.
[07:33] <jsgotangco> and report it
[07:33] <jblack> jsgotangco: That would definitely help gobs.
[07:33] <jblack> I think we're rushing ahead a little fast. 
[07:34] <jsgotangco> ok let's go back..the question is how are we going to migrate the whole documents at the moment in svn
[07:34] <jblack> I'd like to spend a couple days on this to make sure that everybody would be happy if we switched. If not, why. If there's a why, how does it get fixed.. so on and so on.
[07:34] <jsgotangco> that's around 200MB but it should lessen post breezy
[07:34] <Burgundavia> we drop some stuff
[07:34] <Burgundavia> s/we drop/we can drop
[07:35] <jblack> I'll make sure there's a good structure, assuming this is the right thing to do. =)
[07:35] <jsgotangco> i want baz, not sure if others do
[07:35] <jblack> What can you guys tell me about the team, socially speaking? How many people, what percentage are active.. what the social dynamics are. 
[07:35] <Burgundavia> I don't see any reason why baz is bad thing
[07:35] <jsgotangco> we've started it with UbuntuHelp
[07:35] <Burgundavia> 4 or 5 maybe active in SVN
[07:36] <Burgundavia> varies at times
[07:36] <Burgundavia> people mostly work on their own things
[07:36] <Burgundavia> 2 working on one doc (faqguide)
[07:37] <jblack> Roughly how many are invovled on a specific subject? 
[07:37] <Burgundavia> usually only one at the moment
[07:37] <Burgundavia> we are stretched pretty thin
[07:37] <jblack> (btw: I really appreciate you guys talking with me about this. You're really helping me catch up to this very quickly) 
[07:37] <Burgundavia> the faqguide has 2 working on it
[07:37] <jblack> You mean there's only 4 or 5 concurrant contributors at any given time? 
[07:37] <Burgundavia> usually
[07:38] <jblack> Holy shlt. How do you guys pull that off? 
[07:38] <Burgundavia> we sort of don
[07:38] <Burgundavia> 't
[07:38] <Burgundavia> we are also very badly coordinated
[07:38] <jblack> Heh. From the number of people that manage to run ubuntu with minimal problems, I think you pull it off better than you give yourself credit for. :) 
[07:39] <Burgundavia> that is not our work
[07:39] <Madpilot> there's a lot more people involved in the wiki, but far fewer "hardcore" Doc folks
[07:39] <jblack> So 4 or 5 solid people (two of which are you two) , a lot of loose, occasional people (I'm guessing perhaps ~ 20?)? 
[07:40] <Burgundavia> probably around 10, but ya
[07:40] <jblack> Who are the other 2 or 3 active these days? 
[07:40] <jsgotangco> jblack, the stumbling block really is the format used and our commit method
[07:40] <ajmitch> that's even less than the MOTUs
[07:40] <Burgundavia> rob^ and mgalvin
[07:40] <Burgundavia> the faqguide people
[07:40] <Burgundavia> jjesse does some kde stuff
[07:40] <jblack> and rob^ is pro ubuntu. How about mgalvin? 
[07:41] <Burgundavia> and jeffsch is our style guide guy
[07:41] <jblack> pardon, pro baz
[07:41] <Burgundavia> never heard anything either way
[07:41] <jblack> So they'd likely be open.
[07:41] <Burgundavia> the major sticking point has sort of left eh doc team
[07:41] <Burgundavia> Sean Wheller
[07:41] <jblack> If you don't mind me asking, who was that, and why? 
[07:42] <Burgundavia> he does docs for a job and unknown reasons
[07:42] <jsgotangco> he's the documentation expert really
[07:42] <robitaille> when is the doc team meeting?  25th or 26th?  wiki + agenda has 26th.  topic in #u-meeting has 25t
[07:42] <jsgotangco> robitaille, 26
[07:42] <robitaille> ok.  I'll change the topic
[07:42] <jsgotangco> robitaille, thanks
[07:43] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, that is moving it to friday
[07:43] <Burgundavia> (not objecting, just wondering
[07:43] <jblack> Ok. This sounds promising. You've got me invested and ready to follow you on the process issues. 
[07:44] <Burgundavia> after the 5th we will be much more ready to rock the boat
[07:44] <ajmitch> jblack: we'll have to talk about how baz can help the MOTUs at some point
[07:44] <Burgundavia> as after that we stop writing
[07:44] <jblack> ajmitch: Yeah. Thats coming, and soon at that. 
[07:44] <Burgundavia> until then, lets stick with svn
[07:44] <jblack> today is the... 25th or so..
[07:45] <jblack> I don't think thats going to be a problem. ;) 
[07:45] <Burgundavia> so the week of the 5th you want to start pulling into baz?
[07:45] <Burgundavia> we can work until late October and hopefully I will be in Montreal and we can look things over
[07:45] <jblack> Well, what sort of load average are you guys running? 
[07:45] <Burgundavia> # commits/day?
[07:46] <jblack> human wise. 
[07:46] <Burgundavia> overloaded
[07:46] <jblack> Yeah. going bald from stress stuff. 
[07:46] <ajmitch> sounds familiar
[07:46] <Burgundavia> running into time crunches
[07:46] <jblack> Don't worry. I won't screw you guys up right before release. 
[07:47] <Burgundavia> thanks
[07:47] <jblack> Its better to get release out of the way, and have time to fix unexpected mistakes.
[07:47] <jsgotangco> jblack, going back to my segfault..its too cryptic..anything more verbose?
[07:48] <jblack> jsgotangco: Sure... Freed memory is being written to somewhere. ;) 
[07:48] <jblack> If you can put up a reproducable bug, we'll chase it down.
[07:48] <jsgotangco> i'd file a bug, but there isn't much to look
[07:48] <jsgotangco> it just says Segmentations Fault
[07:48] <jblack> Well, thats definitely an important part to mention in the bug report.
[07:49] <jblack> Another important part to mention is the exact steps you take to get to where you were.
[07:49] <jsgotangco> i'll just copy paste my terminal output
[07:49] <jblack> Oh, I wouldn't be able to fix it tonight. Sorry. :( 
[07:49] <jsgotangco> its ok
[07:49] <jsgotangco> i just dont know what is wrong
[07:49] <jsgotangco> and not really sure where to start
[07:50] <jeffsch> howdy dudes
[07:50] <jsgotangco> i can merge with mpt's supermirror but cannot archive-mirror to mine
[07:50] <jblack> And you don't need to. Thats our problem, becoming your problem. I'm happy to trade you a bugfix for switching in the near future. 
[07:50] <jblack> mpt has a supermirror? 
[07:50] <jblack> You mean sourcecontrol.net? 
[07:50] <jsgotangco> yes
[07:50] <jblack> Heh. Thats not mpt's. ;) 
[07:50] <jsgotangco> well ok yours then :)
[07:50] <jsgotangco> as i did one myself
[07:51] <jblack> Actually, its the company's now, but it started in my basement. :) 
[07:51] <Burgundavia> ajmitch, you have a lot more work that must be done than we do
[07:51] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: but more time
[07:51] <Burgundavia> ajmitch, not really
[07:51] <jblack> Ok. So you guys have alluded that there's potential process problems... you're looking at 200 megs of data, you're not well organized, you're overloaded, what else? 
[07:51] <Burgundavia> ajmitch, we can't really start writing until there is something to write about
[07:52] <Burgundavia> jblack, we have social issues with keeping contributors? (not really something you can fix)
[07:52] <jsgotangco> lol
[07:52] <jblack> Actually, I could give some advice on that at another time, if you like.. 
[07:53] <Burgundavia> we can chat at Montreal
[07:53] <jblack> I've managed over the years to get people to work for free for months at a time. 
[07:53] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: if I can help out..
[07:53] <jeffsch> the issues are not all social though... most have jobs and real life to contend with
[07:53] <jblack> burgundavia: Have we met before, perhaps UBU? 
[07:53] <jblack> UDU, that is
[07:53] <Burgundavia> jblack, no Mataro
[07:53] <jblack> Wow, that was what? Maybe 30 years ago? 
[07:54] <jblack> What do you look like? Got a pic? 
[07:54] <Burgundavia> I am on planet
[07:54] <Burgundavia> under august 16th
[07:55] <jblack> Corey? 
[07:55] <Burgundavia> Kinnison and I made lots of jokes about chocolate sprinkles and camera man
[07:55] <Burgundavia> indeed
[07:55] <jblack> Yeah! I remember you!
[07:55] <Burgundavia> I was supposed to write some docs for the Hoary cycle
[07:55] <Burgundavia> and never did
[07:56] <Burgundavia> well, my job was hell at the time and my gf was breaking up with me, but still
[07:56] <jblack> Heh. Know what that was like. I'm just wrapping up a divorce that was only 1/2 of the way through at Mataro.
[07:56] <Burgundavia> I seem to remember talking about it
[07:56] <jblack> I guess I blab about that too much. :|
[07:57] <jblack> Ok. So, what can you guys tell me about the process? 
[07:57] <ajmitch> I hadn't even seen Ubuntu by Mataro
[07:57] <Burgundavia> well, usually you send patches to the list
[07:57] <Burgundavia> and after a while we give you a svn account
[07:58] <jsgotangco> process of committing?
[07:58] <jsgotangco> we ask elmo to create one
[07:58] <Burgundavia> and then you wait and wait and wait...
[07:58] <jblack> Ok. So far, so good. I can map that easily.
[07:58] <jsgotangco> lol
[07:58] <Burgundavia> and did I mention you wait some more?
[07:58] <jblack> What happens after you wait? 
[07:58] <Burgundavia> ajmitch, I also funded myself to Mataro, which was a little crazy
[07:58] <jsgotangco> until you bug the CC and elmo does the accounts
[07:58] <Burgundavia> jblack, eventually you get an account and then you commit
[07:59] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: that might cost a bit much for me to get to Montreal
[07:59] <jblack> Ok. Not a problem at all.
[07:59] <jblack> How is your tree set up? 
[07:59] <Burgundavia> you chose something that interests you and work on that
[07:59] <jsgotangco> ajmitch, we can start swimming this weekend
[07:59] <jsgotangco> jblack, most people do at trunk
[07:59] <jblack> You said 200 megs. Is it easily divisable into more maneagable chunks? 
[07:59] <ajmitch> jsgotangco: alright, you'll call in to NZ on the way past?
[07:59] <jsgotangco> at the end of the cycle someone branches
[07:59] <Burgundavia> usually this involves pissing off at least one other member of team ;)
[07:59] <jsgotangco> (but i dont think we'll have a branch after this)
[08:00] <ajmitch> jsgotangco: btw, sounds like I might be getting roped into running a python miniconf at LCA
[08:00] <Burgundavia> jblack, one of our problems is lack of speccing out what we are doing beforehand
[08:00] <jsgotangco> then the branch is merged back to trunk
[08:00] <Burgundavia> jblack, something I intend to make certain it is remeded for the dapper cycle
[08:00] <Burgundavia> s/dapper/breezy +1
[08:00] <jeffsch> jblack: yes, it can be divided.
[08:01] <Burgundavia> jblack, we have several upstream vendor drops of their docs, god knows why
[08:01] <jblack> Ahh. You branch, somebody keeps working on the old trunk for awhile, and his code gets hosed.
[08:01] <Burgundavia> no, the trunk is frozen
[08:01] <jblack> how many different... components.. are there in the docs? 
[08:01] <Burgundavia> we have to stop writing on the 5th, for the translators
[08:02] <Burgundavia> jblack, our work is very burst oriented
[08:02] <jsgotangco> at the beginning there is no activity
[08:02] <Burgundavia> we need to get a lot done is a short cycle (usually the last 2 1/2 months of the release
[08:02] <Burgundavia> and stuff like my QuickTour really can't be done until after FeatureFreeze
[08:03] <jeffsch> jblack: the best way to see how many different components there are and what they are is to take a look at our repos
[08:03] <jsgotangco> this release has been a nightmare because of a non working X
[08:03] <jblack> would you believe me if I told you that I don't have subversion? 
[08:04] <Burgundavia> yes
[08:04] <jsgotangco> its understandable
[08:04] <jeffsch> you can browse from the web
[08:04] <jblack> How many pieces could the docs be broken up into without screwing up with dependancy relationships? 
[08:04] <jeffsch> i will find the link, hold on...
[08:04] <jblack> yeah, viewsvn
[08:05] <Burgundavia> hmm
[08:05] <jblack> btw, happy birthday, Burgundavia.
[08:05] <jblack> Mine was on the 12th. :) 
[08:05] <jeffsch> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/
[08:05] <Burgundavia> all of our docs depend on some common pieces
[08:05] <Burgundavia> author stuff and license stuff
[08:05] <jblack> Not a problem there
[08:05] <Burgundavia> thus they all need to be in one place
[08:05] <Burgundavia> but the vendor drops I would just drop
[08:05] <jsgotangco> we have a global entity file that docs refer to most of the time
[08:05] <jblack> THe common pieces are framework stuff that usually doesn't change much, I presume
[08:06] <Burgundavia> yes
[08:06] <jblack> Have you worked with configs before? 
[08:07] <jeffsch> what do you mean by "configs"?
[08:07] <jblack> jeffsch: Its slightly complicated. Let me check with burg. to know if he's familiar with them yet.
[08:07] <Burgundavia> jblack, no
[08:08] <jblack> Ok, well, I'm not suggesting anything (at least not _yet_ :) ), but...
[08:08] <jblack> bazaar 1.x has these things called configs. They're basically text files that say "in this directory, put that branch". rinse, cycle, repeat.
[08:09] <Burgundavia> ah
[08:09] <jblack> Its slightly doughy in the center (for example, you can update every branch that you pulled from a config automatically), but that sounds like it may not be a problem for you guys.
[08:09] <jblack> So, I'm thinking maybe a kde config, a gnome config, so forth and so on...
[08:10] <jblack> I'd have to look at the full tree carefully first, and fully identify the logical identity between directories. 
[08:10] <jblack> That said, we could also look at doing something similiar with bazaar 2, but with a custom script. 
[08:11] <jblack> (bazaar 2, aka bzr, which is ironically at 0.0.6, doesn't have any concept of a config built in)
[08:11] <jeffsch> is bzr compatible with baz?
[08:11] <jblack> lifeless reminds me of a neat tool he wrote, called config manager. 
[08:11] <jblack> So that solves that. 
[08:12] <jblack> In fact, using config manager, we could even consider migrating you guys a step at a time. :) 
[08:12] <jsgotangco> what does config do? it knows who works on gnome/kde?
[08:12] <jsgotangco> etc/
[08:13] <jblack> jsgotangco: A config file is simply a file that some human wrote that says "I need to build a directory tree. Please put these branches in these dirs" 
[08:13] <jblack> So its like automating a whole bunch of nested svn checkouts.
[08:14] <jsgotangco> i see
[08:14] <jsgotangco> do you guys have a visual image of the whole process in baz?
[08:14] <jeffsch> hmm... I don't think i have ever had to do any nested svn checkouts on docteam 
[08:14] <jblack> jsgotangco: A visual one.... though thats a good idea, I don't know of such a thing. 
[08:15] <jblack> jeffsch: Normally, in svn I don't believe you have to. You can carve off dirs during pull, iirc.
[08:15] <jblack> Would it help you guys visualize it if I put an example config on the web to look at? 
[08:15] <jeffsch> yes. that's my point :)
[08:16] <jblack> Yeah. Thats one of the benefits of the way they do things. 
[08:16] <jblack> (Hey! Anybody that told you that they had a solution to solve all problems would be lying) 
[08:17] <jsgotangco> well a whole process flow would be helpful...svn is kinda easy to get into
[08:17] <jsgotangco> you just push and pull
[08:17] <jblack> Ok... let me tell you a story then...
[08:17] <jsgotangco> oohhh
[08:17] <jblack> The name of the guy in this story is.... How does Barry McVoy sound to you? 
[08:18] <jsgotangco> ok
[08:18] <jblack> Don't confuse Barry with Larry! Different guys. :) 
[08:18] <ajmitch> I'm sure :)
[08:19] <jblack> Is somebody logging this? 
[08:19] <jblack> Ok. So, let me introduce you to barry. He's your average guy. Hangs around in all the cool places, plays quake, probably drinks more coke than is good for him.
[08:20] <jblack> He's heard that linux is the k3wl thing to run, installs ubuntu, and is happy for a few months. 
[08:20] <jblack> One day, he decides that he gets ticked off because he's trying to do something and the docs have ticked him off. So he googles, etcs, and gets the facts straightened out.
[08:21] <jblack> Realizing that others will have the same problem, he gripes at you guys. And you guys say to him "Hey! You're right! Since you've got the problem and the answer, will you make a patch for us?" 
[08:21] <jblack> Barry cooperates, sends a patch off to the list, just as always. 
[08:22] <jblack> He does this sort of thing off and on for a couple weeks. Finally, he gets ticked off because nobody merges his hard work on his behalf as fast as he wants.
[08:22] <jblack> So far so good? 
[08:22] <jeffsch> keep goin
[08:23] <jblack> So, Barry decides he wants to contribue in a way that gets you guys merging his stuff. He's been paying some attention, and know you guys use this bazaar thing.
[08:23] <jblack> He looks at the frequently mentioned website for how to get started on working on docs. 
[08:24] <jblack> The docs tell him that he needs to run "apt-get bazaar". He then also needs to download a neat little script called.. oh lets say ubdoc... 
[08:24] <jblack> He does this, and goes back to the site, which tells him that he needs to run "ubdoc pull <somename>, which is a list of names at the website.
[08:25] <jblack> ubdoc runs bazaar on his part, and he's got a directory tree with all of the parts he needs. 
[08:25] <jblack> It just happens. 
[08:26] <jblack> Barry makes some changes, and is happy with his fixes. He goes back to the website, and sees that the next thing for him to do is run "ubdoc test". He does this, finds out theres a problem in his doc fix. He fixes again, runs ubdoc fix again, and its happy this time.
[08:27] <jblack> now, he runs.. oh lets say "ubdoc commit 'Big typo in kde docs'. 
[08:27] <jblack> That gets pushed to a supermirror archive, and you guys can merge him directly. 
[08:28] <jblack> It also emails a list, so you guys know its there. 
[08:28] <jblack> Still ok? 
[08:28] <jsgotangco> right
[08:28] <jsgotangco> but its his own patch not upstream
[08:28] <jsgotangco> you're telling us that upstream will merge his patch
[08:28] <jsgotangco> ?
[08:28] <jblack> In the story I'm telling you here, You will merge his patch.
[08:29] <jblack> is that wrong? 
[08:29] <jeffsch> jblack: it is different. i can't say it's better though.
[08:29] <jsgotangco> no
[08:29] <jblack> Ok. This is actually a long story. Barry is ambitious, and eventually runs ubuntu-doc. :) 
[08:30] <jblack> This works pretty well for awhile. Barry gets a bit curious and learns that this ubdoc is just a shell wrapper for a much more powerful tool. 
[08:30] <jblack> He pokes around in the script, reads some docs, and gets more interested in bazaar.
[08:31] <jblack> He also keeps working on the docs, btw.
[08:31] <jblack> A couple months goes by, and you guys are tired of merging him. He's too active to maintain that way.
[08:31] <jblack> so you guys tell somebody that he needs pqm access. 
[08:31] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[08:31] <jblack> From Barry's perspective, though, things change a bit. 
[08:32] <jblack> By now, he's given up ubdoc, because he likes doing the cool stuff like diffing this that and the other. :) 
[08:32] <jblack> and now, he gets to learn pqm. He learns that he needs gnupg, and that he has to run a different script to send requests for his code to be merged directly.
[08:32] <jblack> Lets call that... pcommit. 
[08:33] <jblack> Now, these days, he runs "get-kdedoc", which is a shell script he wrote that grabs the appropriate config file and builds the tree for him.
[08:34] <jblack> He then hacks the kde docs, runs baz commit -m "Fixed typo", and then runs pcommit "Fixed typo" (eventually, he tires of doing both, and fixes pcommit to do both at the same time....) 
[08:34] <jblack> And his code is in ubuntu-docs.
[08:35] <jblack> A few months goes by, everybody more senior has left.
[08:36] <jblack> So now Barry needs to worry about the comitters. He's long since subscrigbed to the mailing list that ubdoc silently emailed ("Hey, there's this branch with patches waiting" 
[08:38] <jblack> Whenever he feels like it, he grabs an email, runs bazaar assemble http://ubuntudoc.com/kde; merge; cd docs; bazaar merge http://mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/someurl" (this is set up in the email so that one can cut-n-paste)
[08:38] <jblack> He reviews the changes they made, is happy with them, and runs pcommit, which puts them into the official branch.
[08:39] <jblack> As developers grow up and cut their teeth on doing all this, he gets _them_ added to pqm. 
[08:39] <jblack> THen he finds a cute chick with a tongue ring and a rich daddy and goes off to live on a yacht for the rest of his life.
[08:39] <jsgotangco> it does address the problem of waiting for an account creation
[08:39] <jblack> The end.
[08:40] <jeffsch> barry can do all that with only svn commit and svn update
[08:40] <jsgotangco> svn commit is even a wall
[08:40] <jeffsch> he is successful because he writes good docs and lots of them
[08:40] <jsgotangco> if we dont even have access to account creation
[08:41] <jblack> Can barry do that before he's been given svn access? 
[08:41] <jsgotangco> he sends patches
[08:41] <jeffsch> that thing with elmo was a glitch, plus with linode server, we are not dependent on elmo
[08:41] <jblack> Yeah. 
[08:41] <jblack> I could certainly embellish the story with all sorts of things.... 
[08:41] <jblack> I'd probably keep you up all night though. 
[08:42] <jeffsch> also, the wait for svn commit access gives us a chance to see what the writer can do
[08:42] <jsgotangco> but people with commit access won't bug anyone to commit for them in svn
[08:42] <jblack> For example, We could add a part that Barry is a kde developer too, and they keep their docs in bazaar. 
[08:42] <jsgotangco> in here, you are bugged by an email to merge to a patch
[08:42] <jblack> Then Barry is doing merges between two different, but related trees. 
[08:43] <jeffsch> does kde use bazaar? does gnome?
[08:43] <jblack> We can also add things like "Lets have a throaway branch" that anybody can merge into. 
[08:43] <jeffsch> plus, our docs don't tend to be useable upstream anyway
[08:44] <jblack> Every couple days, a developer takes a diff between the official docs and the junk branch, and if things look good, merge all 3893838 built up patches into mainline at once. 
[08:44] <jeffsch> i'm playing devil's advocate here :) I am willing to try it out, but not until after breezy release
[08:44] <jdub> jeffsch: they're all synced into baz, so in future, we can branch and modify
[08:45] <jblack> KDE doesn't use bazaar, parts of gnome do. 
[08:45] <jdub> jeffsch: which will make contributing upstream easier, and make ubuntu-specific deltas mainainable
[08:45] <jblack> Yeah. In that story, people are already doing that in bazaar. 
[08:45] <jsgotangco> i like the idea of branching into Gnome docs and fixing it in the process
[08:46] <jsgotangco> at the same time improving our content which other might get to use as well
[08:46] <jblack> Bear in mind though taht we're talking about a contrived story. Some of those parts don't exist and somebody would have to write them.
[08:46] <jblack> but its conceptually doable, and not actually that hard. :)
[08:47] <jeffsch> jblack: the gnome docs have screen shots that are specific to gnome default theme, but ubuntu has its own theme
[08:47] <jblack> Thats not a big problem. 
[08:47] <jeffsch> jblack: would it be possible to maintain two separate docs in bazaar
[08:47] <jdub> jeffsch: that's just a branch with different screenshots
[08:47] <jeffsch> so that all we need to keep in ubunto baz is the ubuntu screen shot?
[08:48] <jblack> Sure. You can have two related branches that are similiar, but not identical.
[08:48] <jdub> (though i don't think there's a massive benefit to worrying about ubuntu-theme screenshots)
[08:48] <jblack> Lets say there's a pile of kde docs. You guys want ubuntu pics instead of some other pics.
[08:48] <jeffsch> if the gnome text changes independently of the ubuntu screen shot, will it get updated in the ubuntu docs?
[08:48] <jdub> you can merge, yes
[08:49] <jdub> baz, being designed from the ground up as a distributed revision control system, has to have really slick branching and merging
[08:49] <jdub> as opposed to the cvs/svn model, which has ok branching and punch-in-the-face merging
[08:49] <jblack> Baz is incredible. 
[08:49] <jblack> Did I tell you guys exactly when I feel in love with distributed revision control? 
[08:49] <jsgotangco> the merge in svn can be sweeping
[08:50] <jblack> I wanted to hack on tla, I didn't want to be stuck in the house. So I went off to the park. I did hack hack hack, commit, hack hack hack, commit. 
[08:50] <jblack> I didn't need internet access, I didn't need permission to work. I just did what I wanted.
[08:51] <jdub> and got *actual revision control* in the process
[08:51] <jblack> Later, when I got back, I published my changes and said "Hey, Tom, merge this"
[08:51] <jblack> Yup. full fledged revision control. In fact, I actually ended up having to undo one of my patches.
[08:51] <jblack> I didn't need permission from Tom to access his archive. I didn't need some sysadmin to create something special for me. 
[08:51] <jblack> I had the system work according to my needs, not its needs.
[08:52] <jsgotangco> you just asked
[08:52] <jblack> Well, sure, I needed to ask tom to insert my code into his archive. 
[08:52] <jblack> But I was able to work completely independantly. 
[08:52] <jsgotangco> its up to the maintainer to accept or decline
[08:52] <jsgotangco> right
[08:52] <jblack> And whether or not he merged me, I _didn't care_. 
[08:53] <jsgotangco> you still have your own copy
[08:53] <jblack> I already had the fix for me, and if he didn't take it, I'd just keep my own local copy of tla. WHenever he changed stuff, I could merge him. 
[08:53] <jsgotangco> that others might find useful
[08:53] <jeffsch> jblack: that's fine for code. docs are different.
[08:53] <jblack> Dude, you have no idea. Its like... its like.. having your own car.
[08:53] <jblack> Different and the same.
[08:54] <jblack> Sure, docs that don't get merged in don't make much sense. That's true. 
[08:54] <jeffsch> "And whether or not he merged me, I _didn't care_." does not apply to docs
[08:54] <jblack> But the _when_ things get merged _definitely does_ 
[08:54] <jblack> I can keep working on my docs branch until you guys eventually get around to merging me. 
[08:55] <jblack> I'm not stuck in a lockstep process with you guys, worried that my tree is getting too far out of date (becuase I can merge you whenever I want. I can easily keep things up to date)
[08:55] <jsgotangco> it does make sense if someone outside of the core group is doing a good job on creating rad docs
[08:56] <jblack> In my experience, that guys you guys one or two months of time before somebody's pissed that you're not merging them.
[08:56] <jblack> *that buys
[08:56] <jsgotangco> well it doesn't happen yet but it might
[08:56] <jsgotangco> but then
[08:56] <jsgotangco> most contributors have no idea of revision control systems 
[08:56] <jblack> Not only that, but if two or three people want to work on the same docs, they can merge each other back and forth and work together without you having to be stuck in the middle.
[08:56] <jsgotangco> nor our docbook source
[08:57] <jblack> Thats where the story above fits in.
[08:57] <jblack> You don't throw something complicated like revision control at a newbie. 
[08:57] <jsgotangco> we'll need a very good intro for people on how we work
[08:57] <jblack> You ease them into it. You give them small, gradual steps to take, each one being slightly more complicated, powerful and comprehensive. 
[08:57] <jsgotangco> in a context that is not those of a control system
[08:58] <jblack> You can't get rid of the hill that needs to be climbed, but you can definitely stretch it out. 
[08:58] <jsgotangco> yes
[08:58] <jblack> Each step of the process needs to make people as powerful as possible, with as little effort as possible. 
[08:58] <jblack> Thats a key point to retaining people.
[08:59] <jblack> If its a pain in the ass to figure out how to help, or a pain in the ass to do the help, then they won't help. Its too close to work. 
[08:59] <jeffsch> i want to see it in action. after breezy release, i will have time to fool around with baz on mpt's docs
[08:59] <jeffsch> but i am sceptical
[08:59] <jsgotangco> ive started with mpt's docs but i cant archive to my supermirror so mpt cant merge my changes yet
[08:59] <jeffsch> if it makes for better docs, I'm all for it
[09:00] <jblack> Good. I want you to be skeptical. 
[09:00] <jsgotangco> i find the flow simple
[09:00] <jeffsch> svn ain't broke :)
[09:00] <jsgotangco> jeffsch, heh
[09:00] <jblack> jeffsch: Oh, it's broke in ways you don't want to know about. 
[09:01] <jeffsch> i suppose if you code 24 hours a day,
[09:01] <jblack> Thats normal for _every_ piece of software. 
[09:01] <jeffsch> but you don't even have it installed...
[09:01] <jeffsch> svn commit
[09:01] <jeffsch> svn update
[09:01] <jblack> What I won't do is sit here and pick the nits (like I said, thats every piece of software) 
[09:01] <jsgotangco> svn hasn't failed us at all to be honest
[09:01] <jeffsch> and that's pretty much it
[09:01] <jdub> jeffsch: baz is as easy as that if you want it to be
[09:01] <jblack> Actually, I did have it installed.
[09:01] <jeffsch> if you do all the stuff Barry did
[09:02] <jblack> Actually, I do more than the stuff barry does.
[09:02] <jdub> jeffsch: keep in mind that jblack is very interested in revision control, while most of us are not
[09:02] <jdub> jeffsch: however, even for those of us who don't care, baz ends up being a better and more useful tool
[09:03] <jeffsch> jdub: true. we don't use svn for rev control. it's mostly a place to stick our docs
[09:03] <jblack> The barry story is just a story of a way it could be. We could tune the story to fit better. 
[09:04] <jblack> Let me ask you this though... Did you ever have something that was pretty good? You were happy with it, it served your purpose? 
[09:05] <jsgotangco> well not really good but people are happy and served its purpose
[09:05] <jeffsch> yep
[09:05] <jblack> ANd then try something different for awhile, and found out that there's _no_ way you could ever go back? 
[09:05] <jblack> Distributed revision control is like that.
[09:07] <jsgotangco> i want to get over my segfault experience first because my experience is half baked
[09:07] <jblack> burgundavia has an idea of what sorts of things bazaar can do. 
[09:07] <jblack> Yeah. Thats a problem that needs to be fixed. 
[09:08] <jblack> I'm aware of it now, and I'm going to make sure something happens about it.
[09:08] <jblack> Consider this too.... you guys get direct access to the bazaar developers.. at conferences, you can literally poke us in the shoulder, and say "This ain't working for us. We need help getting this resolved".
[09:09] <jsgotangco> well yes thats really appreciated
[09:09] <jblack> And we sit there with you, and talk with you, and come up with a solution. We have to, because launchpad/ubuntu/everyone else at conference outnumbers us roughly 15 to one. If we didn't, we'd get creamed. :)
[09:10] <jsgotangco> need to clarify this
[09:11] <jsgotangco> i can branch anything i want
[09:11] <jsgotangco> other people in the docteam can scratch their own itch
[09:11] <rob^> what are you branching?
[09:11] <jblack> Correct. 
[09:11] <jsgotangco> rob^, say gnome docs itself
[09:11] <jsgotangco> other team members might not have an interest to it at all
[09:12] <rob^> jsgotangco, as in all our ubuntu/gnome docs?
[09:12] <jsgotangco> rob^, gnome itself
[09:12] <rob^> oh
[09:12] <jsgotangco> i have my own branch of ubuntu-doc and my own branch of gnome doc 
[09:12] <rob^> what are you going to do with them?
[09:12] <jblack> rob^: the discussion at hand is the potential of moving ubuntu-doc over to baz.
[09:12] <rob^> jblack, I thought this was always going to happen eventually
[09:13] <jblack> jsgotangco: If those trees are related (one was at least indirectly branched off of the other), you can merge them. 
[09:13] <jsgotangco> but ubuntu-docs dont necessarily go upstream
[09:13] <jsgotangco> while gnome docs that are patched do
[09:13] <jblack> If they don't go upstream, then they don't go upstream.
[09:14] <jsgotangco> im actually sold on the idea
[09:14] <jblack> However, with imports, we're actively working on getting everything in main into bazaar.
[09:14] <jblack> We're not there yet (I'd say that about 90% of gnome's official packages are in).... 
[09:15] <jsgotangco> yes but it is a good value proposition i say
[09:15] <jblack> But certainly a lot. 
[09:16] <jblack> Some of those projects will migrate to bazaar quickly. Others won't. 
[09:16] <jblack> Those that do got a free migration ride. Those that don't... thats ok. The people that use bazaar can still work between each other, and still send patches back, or run dual trees.
[09:17] <jsgotangco> i believe people are smart enough here for the transition, i just can't say with potential contributors
[09:17] <rob^> one question: how does having separate branches for everyone benefit the docteam as a whole?
[09:17] <Burgundavia> for them it won't change that much
[09:17] <jblack> rob^: Reduced interdependance. 
[09:18] <jsgotangco> rob^, you don't need a copy of the whole repository to work just branch stuff
[09:18] <jblack> If you go off into a cave and hack for 2-3 weeks, not only is anybody else stuck (same for svn), but you're not stuck eitehr. You can still keep up to date.
[09:18] <jblack> not only is nobody else stuck...
[09:18] <rob^> how does baz merge the two later?
[09:19] <jblack> I'm not clear on what your'e asking.
[09:19] <jblack> I can interpret that a bunch of ways. 
[09:19] <jblack> You go off to a cave, diverge a bit, how do you merge back in? 
[09:19] <jblack> Or how do you merge mainline back into you? 
[09:19] <rob^> ie, if I go into a cave and hack for two weeks, how do we then take my doc and that doc and create 1 doc from it for release
[09:19] <jsgotangco> rob^, the maintainer of the doc merges your changes
[09:19] <jblack> Ahhh. 
[09:20] <jblack> You've been committing your work, of course. 
[09:20] <jblack> You merge mainline (thats an easy, standard operation in bazaar). If there's no problem, you merge into mainline. 
[09:20] <rob^> who gets to say what makes it and what doesn't?
[09:20] <jblack> You merge mainline into you (thats an easy, standard operation in bazaar). If there's no problem, you merge your stuff into mainline
[09:21] <jblack> Anybody that has pqm access. 
[09:21] <jblack> Third parties would get merged by one of you guys.
[09:21] <jblack> Importantly, though, they can keep working while you eventually get around to it.
[09:21] <rob^> is pqm access different for each doc?
[09:21] <jblack> So you don't have those bitrot problems. 
[09:21] <jblack> pqm access is typically branchwide. 
[09:22] <rob^> so, every branch for each doc?
[09:22] <jblack> What do you say when you mean "each doc".
[09:22] <jblack> Do you mean a single file, or a set of files for a logically related set of documents? 
[09:22] <rob^> user guide, faq guide, etc
[09:22] <rob^> either
[09:22] <jblack> Well, I'm not expert on your process, but.... 
[09:23] <rob^> either single file or group of files
[09:23] <jblack> I'd make a branch for docs unique to ubuntu. That gives you one set of controls for pqm.
[09:23] <jblack> I'd make another one for kde stuff, another one for gnome stuff...
[09:23] <rob^> so we as a team decide what makes it and what doesn't (or gnome and kde teams)
[09:23] <jblack> and a standard boilerplate topdir that only important people have access to. 
[09:24] <jblack> Yeah.
[09:24] <jblack> It would be silly if just anybody could commit to just anything. 
[09:24] <rob^> like now?
[09:24] <jblack> can I commit to your svn archives? 
[09:24] <rob^> I think I'll have to see it running to appreciate it fully
[09:25] <rob^> well, anyone in the team can that has access
[09:25] <jsgotangco> rob^, in a social sense, it is quite open compared to svn
[09:25] <jblack> The penultimate point is that archives are owned by a person or a role. 
[09:25] <jblack> That person is _the_ authority for that archive. 
[09:25] <jblack> The only way to get stuff in there is for that person to do it. 
[09:25] <rob^> for the whole archive?
[09:26] <jblack> In the case of doing multi-committer stuff, there's a tool called PQM, which is a robot that takes instructions from trusted people, and does them.
[09:26] <jblack> Yeah. My archive is mine. YOu can't write it, unless I give you filesytem access to it. 
[09:26] <jsgotangco> rob^, not the whole it can be split, like i said, people can scratch their own itch instead of getting the whole thing
[09:27] <jblack> rob^: jsgotangco has me thinking I'm not understanding your question right. 
[09:27] <rob^> let me reword it a bit
[09:27] <jblack> Is your question who can write to what on the filesystme level, or whether or not things can be broken up? 
[09:27] <rob^> who controls what parts of the repository?
[09:28] <jblack> each person gets their own repository. 
[09:28] <rob^> I understand we each can control our own branches
[09:28] <rob^> in full?
[09:28] <jblack> On their own machines. 
[09:28] <jblack> In full. 
[09:28] <rob^> who controls the master repository?
[09:28] <jblack> A bot called PQM.
[09:28] <rob^> who controls him
[09:29] <jblack> People your team trusts. 
[09:29] <jblack> They sign emails with gpg signatures, which tells pqm to do things on their behalf.
[09:29] <rob^> so its in regard to PQM, its kind of like now
[09:29] <jblack> The PQM portion is rather similiar to what you experience in svn. Yes.
[09:30] <rob^> ie, everyone on the team can commit, so everyone on the team can control PQM
[09:30] <jblack> Correct.
[09:30] <rob^> ah ok
[09:30] <jblack> You can get pqm to do all sorts of neat things... For example, with bazaar, things work like this: 
[09:31] <jblack> I branch from the official bazaar archive into my archive. I work and commit, so on and so on. When I'm happy, I send a signed email to pqm (this is done with a script).
[09:31] <jblack> PQM merges my branch from a machine it can reach (I put a copy of the archive there automatically).
[09:31] <jblack> If the merge fails, it tells me to fix the conflicts. If it doesn't, then: 
[09:32] <jblack> it tries to build the code. If it doesn't, it tells me to clean up my screw up. If it does:
[09:32] <jblack> pqm then runs make test on the code, with the merge. If the test fails, again, it tells me to screw off. If it succeeds, then:
[09:32] <jblack> pqm then builds a .deb for ... I think its 3 architectures. If any of them fails... 
[09:32] <jblack> well, you get the picture.
[09:32] <rob^> right
[09:33] <jblack> In the bazaar world, the typical branch people bump into is publically readable, publicably unwritable.
[09:33] <jblack> So you can merge from them. 
[09:34] <jblack> If you don't want people to have access to a branch, don't make it readable by the public. 
[09:34] <rob^> so another question: if two of us edit the same section in the same document then try to commit, it will cause a conflict
[09:34] <rob^> yes?
[09:34] <jblack> Typically, yes.
[09:34] <rob^> for one of us
[09:34] <jblack> Well, that depends where you're talking about.
[09:34] <jblack> You each have your own archive. You both commit to your own branches. There's no conflict there.
[09:35] <jblack> Now, if you both independantly commit, then both send commands to pqm to get merged in....
[09:35] <rob^> so revision numbers dont come into it (main repository I'm talking about)
[09:35] <jsgotangco> you just ask a merge
[09:35] <jblack> the first person to merge wins. The second one gets a conflict.
[09:35] <jblack> pqm tells them this. 
[09:35] <jblack> So they'll merge the pqm branch, resolve the conflict, commit, and tell pqm to merge them again.
[09:35] <rob^> so if I go into a cave for two weeks, when I come back it will conflict?
[09:36] <jblack> Potentially. Nothing can cope with humans changing the same thing in two places. Somebody's got to make the decision.
[09:36] <rob^> I can see this happening more often then not though..
[09:37] <jblack> That depends on you guys. How often do you guys edit the same files, in the same places? 
[09:37] <jsgotangco> different timezones at least
[09:37] <rob^> ok
[09:37] <rob^> I'll have to give it more thought I think
[09:37] <rob^> I'll bbl gotta cook dinner
[09:38] <jblack> Ok.
[09:38] <jblack> I'm happy to invest a bit of time walking you guys through actual use. 
[09:38] <jblack> We'll setup ssh and a shell, you guys come in, and we actually _do_ this stuff. 
[09:38] <jsgotangco> jblack, all archives are in supermirror?
[09:39] <jsgotangco> or somewhere else
[09:39] <jblack> jsgotangco: All of them that I can touch with my grubby little fingers. ;) 
[09:39] <jblack> I'm sure there's some archives tucked away in places I don't know about, or aren't accessable to me.
[09:39] <jblack> But most public archives have a copy at the supermirror.
[09:39] <jsgotangco> i mean ubuntu itself is in supermirror?
[09:40] <jblack> Oh! 
[09:40] <jblack> No, at least not yet.
[09:40] <jblack> That gets into this thing called HCT... 
[09:40] <jsgotangco> yes
[09:40] <jsgotangco> brrrr
[09:40] <jblack> But that doesn't affect you guys. 
[09:40] <jblack> MOTU wants it though, and distro wants it. :) 
[09:41] <jsgotangco> Keybuk's explanation was good though
[09:42] <jeffsch> i gotta go sleep. see ya's
[09:42] <rob^> ok, looks like the wife-y didn't need a hand after all
[09:42] <rob^> night jeffsch 
[09:43] <jblack> rob^: As far as why I want you to be skeptical... 
[09:44] <rob^> yes?
[09:44] <jblack> Thats because when you are finally convinced, it'll be all the way convinced. You weren't tricked, there weren't hidden problems, and you were happy because you made an informed choice without risk.
[09:45] <jblack> If you weren't skeptical, then you could jump into things with unreasonable expectations, and end up disapointed. 
[09:45] <rob^> I'm happy to take a look and give it a go, I'm just not sure how we benifit any more so by changing
[09:46] <jblack> Skeptics, on the other hand, are rarely disapointed.
[09:46] <jblack> You don't benefit directly.
[09:46] <jblack> Sure, there will be good parts here, and maybe a couple not-great parts there, but on the whole slightly nicer.
[09:46] <jblack> The win, the _huge_ win, is the people that don't have the access that you do. 
[09:47] <jblack> Thats the really important part, keeping one eye looking from your perspective, and one eye from the perspective of your community.
[09:47] <jblack> Looking at it from the community perspective is vital. The easier you make it for them, the more of your work they'll do for you. =) 
[09:50] <jblack> There's always going to be more docs, not less. How would you handle that under svn, other than adding comitters to svn as the docs and userbase grew? (Do you like the idea of 40 people with accounts, potentially able to blow away the docs?)
[09:51] <jsgotangco> no
[09:51] <jsgotangco> 40 people downloading 200MB isnt acceptable either
[09:51] <jblack> with pqm, you can scale things out, keeping a core group that is overseeing things, with subgroups responsible for handling subparts of the docs.
[09:52] <jblack> iow, with baz, we'll be able to scale this out.
[09:52] <rob^> yeah that makes sense
[09:52] <rob^> ok, dinner time now..
[09:53] <jblack> Eat well. 
[09:53] <jblack> Think about it.
[09:53] <jblack> If you guys want, I'll give you a walkthrough of bazaar 1.x this weekend, one at a time. 
[09:53] <rob^> prawn gnocchi
[09:53] <rob^> yumm
[09:53] <jblack> Give you a feel for the strong points and weak points. 
[09:53] <jblack> And we go from there.
[09:53] <rob^> bbl
[09:53] <jblack> :) 
[09:58] <jsgotangco> jblack, do you have a timeline on our migration just in case?
[10:00] <jblack> No. thats something we discuss and decide together. 
[10:00] <jblack> Short of somebody dictating something.. Thats not my style though. I trust that you guys are the experts on when this idea fits into the timeline, if appropriate
[10:02] <jsgotangco> alright too bad we werent able to discuss this in sydney, maybe in montreal
[10:02] <jsgotangco> corey will be there for sure
[10:04] <jsgotangco> right Canada is a big country
[10:04] <jblack> If you exclude the cities right next to the US, most of it is trees. :) 
[10:07] <Burgundavia> and snow and rock
[10:09] <Burgundavia> night all
[10:09] <jsgotangco> night
[11:59] <jsgotangco> rob^, ?
[12:00] <rob^> hey
[12:00] <rob^> whats up?
[12:00] <rob^> I think I screwed up my ubuntu installation messing around with xfce and kde
[12:01] <rob^> I managed to get my widgets back to normal, but the font still sucks
[12:01] <jsgotangco> your client keeps on quitting
[12:01] <jsgotangco> ahh
[12:02] <rob^> yeah, thats me getting pissed and ctrl-alt-backspacing
[04:52] <Gary> hello
[04:53] <Gary> Why ubuntu?
[08:15] <froud> Some fun b4 friday http://justwars.com/linux/ubuntu/
[08:17] <froud> Seems I is not alone is questioning why the need for belonging and having ubuntu mail addresses :-)
[09:09] <jjesse> interesting link froud
[09:21] <robitaille> jjesse:  old story.  I remember most of these emails from back then on the list.  That one particular individual was pretty abbrasive (and not just for that particular thread), and I don't think we have seen him since shortly after these emails
[09:21] <robitaille> seen on the ubuntu lists that is
[09:28] <jjesse> ah