=== ealden [n=ealden@219.90.94.223] has joined #ubuntu-doc === hornbeck [n=hornbeck@adsl-69-155-172-150.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === avanspronsen [n=andrewv@London-HSE-ppp3544950.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveaz [n=seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:13] hi all [05:14] salut [05:15] hey Burgundavia hows it going [05:15] tired [05:15] busy today at work [05:15] ahh nice :) [05:15] i'll not bug you then on QuickTour [05:15] :) [05:16] going to work on it tonight [05:16] after I dig out from email [05:16] Burgundavia, what do you think of creating a sneak preview article on 5.10 [05:16] 'bout half done that (of 300 [05:16] jsgotangco, what do you mean? [05:16] the quick tour is that, no? [05:16] well yeah [05:16] i guess so [05:16] nvm [05:17] plus we really don't have the time and people to create anything else right now === robitaille [n=daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:17] i have colony 3 i can whip up a small article this weekend and show what's new [05:18] hi robitaille [05:18] jsgotangco, honestly, best to put that effort into the quicktour [05:18] I am really worried we are not going to get it done in time [05:19] ok so should i wait for your commit or i make a draft later? [05:19] work on the wiki [05:19] I will start committed RSN [05:19] okay [05:20] i like working offline somethings though [05:20] then write offline, no problem [05:20] I find the best time to write marketing is away fromt eh computer [05:20] hi jsgotangco [05:21] Burgundavia, we'll let JaneW handle project management next time and make sure whoever goes to Montreal, there will be a documentation BOF [05:21] we'll make it part of the whole project process overall [05:21] its kinda hard to be separated from everyone [05:22] jsgotangco, I should be in Montreal. I don't see any reason why not [05:22] Burgundavia, you're a shoo-in i dont know about anyone else [05:22] maybe those in north america [05:22] matt galvin maybe [05:22] not very expensive NA <--> Europe [05:23] that's nice to know [05:24] robitaille is not going to apply (no time off work). Neither is Sean, from what I understand [05:24] you and rob^ are unlikely, do to location === judax [n=troy@ppp-69-148-19-77.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:24] s/do/due [05:24] got to pay the rent somehow :) [05:24] so do I [05:24] but I don't have kids and a wife [05:24] my application sponsorship would be an uphill battle [05:25] greetings [05:25] judax, hey === robitaille looks forward to finally meet the Burger brothers tommorow night [05:25] jsgotangco, I hope you come, just so that we can meet and coordinate [05:25] i want to make sure we'll write specs this time [05:25] indeed [05:25] so the mess with rob^ and myself won't happen again [05:26] I also want to drop a bunch of docs [05:26] i want to push UbuntuHelp actually [05:26] yes [05:26] and drop the Admin/User guide [05:26] the wiki can fill those holes [05:27] how long is Victoria to Montreal by plane? [05:27] an hour or 2? [05:27] 4 [05:27] wow [05:27] Canada is a big country [05:27] and Montreal is not even the extreme east of Canada [05:27] is that on a 747? [05:28] a 737 or smaller airbus [05:28] not enough traffic to justify big planes [05:28] well i can imagine BC is on the west side and quebec on central [05:28] when i went to sydney it was 8 hours on a 737 [05:30] jsgotangco: I once did a trip Victoria- St Johns newfoundland; so from tip to tip west-east, left very early in the morning arrived very late at night; [05:30] you also have 4.5 hours of timechange working against you [05:31] if i ever do come, i'll be a few hours younger for sure [05:31] exactly. Air Canada could manage to do it. At the time Canadian Airlines was offering cheap seats, but you couldn't even do it in the same day with their schedule [05:32] It's actually probably cheaper in a lot of cases to fly London-Montreal than Victoria-Montreal [05:32] Burgundavia, how long was your flight when you went to Mataro? [05:32] hmm [05:32] a lot of discount between Europe and Montreal and Toronto [05:33] I went Victoria --> Vancouver --> Minn/St. Paul --> London --> Barcelona [05:33] each leg was 4 to 6 hours [05:33] except for Vic -> Van [05:33] that is 25 minutes [05:33] Minn? [05:34] Minneapolis [05:34] wow [05:34] stange that Vancouver didnt have a flight to London direct [05:35] they did [05:35] they do. but you can't always get a seat [05:35] it was cheaper to go that way [05:35] ahhh [05:35] Minn/St. Paul is the hub of Northwest [05:35] right [05:35] not a bad airport actually [05:35] and Northwest isn't a bad airline [05:36] Ryan was total shite though [05:36] felt like being a plastic plane, and I ended up only saving about $20 [05:36] northwest has good planes === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-82-21.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:37] but the best planes for me are still singapore airlines and emirates [05:37] yes [05:38] i once got to ride a propeller plane in malaysia i was so scared [05:38] i think the plane was like 35 years old === jsgotangco faints at the sight of gnucash [05:40] back on topic, someone needs to get snapping on the faqguide as default front page [05:41] should we contact jdub for help about that? [05:41] it should be done by the preview [05:41] sure tranformed to html already? [05:41] no idea [05:41] the faqguide is profiled it wont render to Yelp correctly [05:42] hmm [05:42] then that needs to be fixed [05:42] it will show both Ubuntu/Kubuntu [05:42] the transformation to HTML needs to split into 2 docs [05:42] we have a scheduled meet tommorow at 14UTC [05:42] ugh [05:42] I thought we need [05:43] s/need/did [05:43] (that was an odd typo) [05:43] mgalvin can fill in to the packaging [05:44] ok, can you fire off an email to the list about that? [05:44] the meeting? yes i am planning to do it after lunch [05:45] ok [05:45] at the meeting we can discuss the technical details on faqguide as default I guess [05:45] let me add that to the wiki now === Burgundavia has just finished dealing with all his email! [05:48] tell me about it; that laptop is a sink of time. I'm behind everything else online [05:48] glad mine mostly works, I will do a major bug filing later on the minor stuff [05:49] you know, almost everyday the fonts look different in FF === jsgotangco checks robitaille's report [05:49] not in any other app, just there [05:49] Burgundavia, i noticed [05:49] jsgotangco: I'm doing it later tonight [05:49] the wiki fonts look kind of washed now.. [05:49] it is because FF is actually a really shitty program [05:51] Burgundavia, what does Fn+F1 do to your A5 [05:51] lock screen, but does nothing [05:51] how about Fn+F8 [05:51] and on windows it doesn't even call the real windows lock screen util [05:52] wireless on/off, unknown if it works [05:52] it doesnt [05:52] ok [05:52] oh wait [05:52] our laptops have mostly the same keys [05:53] it frickin works [05:53] holy crap it did work [05:54] if i do it, the notification shows that its disconnected [05:54] cool [05:54] i turn it back on and i get the full signal [05:54] what notification? [05:55] i mean the network monitor (i added one for eth1) [05:55] ah [05:55] i dont think bluetooth as a monitor of sorts [05:56] bluetooth seems to be turned on by default (no idea) === Burgundavia sets to work on the QuickTour [06:00] would it be a good idea to subscribe to the whole wiki [06:01] 30/40 messages a day? [06:01] thats not so bad [06:02] jsgotangco: it gets busy. 325 messages in the last 2 days [06:02] woooo [06:02] the wiki is only getting busier [06:02] how do you subscribe to the whole wiki? [06:02] it used to be 30/40....before the laptop team [06:03] yah [06:03] subscrube to .* [06:03] i can just make a separate email account [06:03] filter to its own folder will do nicely [06:03] then I quickly scan, usually once a day to see if anything is worth looking at [06:04] gmail doesnt have folders only tags [06:04] in that context, tags = folder [06:04] yes it does [06:04] yes can remove it from the inbox === Burgundavia needs Beethoven to work on the quicktour, not dance [06:05] a lot of MOTU stuff on the wiki in the last 24 hours [06:05] bah [06:05] you need Slipknot [06:05] my brain is just about shot already [06:05] Beethoven has no words [06:06] he's pretty stoned back then [06:06] we just call it classical now [06:06] but back then he was the crack [06:08] what is the scope of gnome-keyring? [06:09] by default it does mounted shares only? [06:09] Burgundavia, where is that? [06:09] the thing that pops up when you mount an ftp share [06:09] hmm [06:09] is it 2.12 specific? [06:09] no === jsgotangco hasn't tried mounting anythign at all [06:10] Places -> Connect to Server ? [06:15] jsgotangco: yes. Then you can mount a ftp, sftp, etc [06:16] it's an old thing. I do it in gnome 2.6 at work [06:17] ok, take a look at the Quick Tour now === avanspronsen [n=andrewv@London-HSE-ppp3544950.sympatico.ca] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [06:18] Burgundavia, add on OOo about the new OOo Base [06:19] ah yes [06:19] and launchpad integration [06:20] hmm also language selector [06:21] already there [06:21] check under the rough work section [06:22] ahh right i was just looking at the boxes [06:23] OOo2 and evolution are supposed to have tighter integration but it doesnt seem to work over here [06:23] what is this Get Help online thing in LP integration [06:25] not going to promote it right now [06:25] hmm add SMEG [06:26] menu editing a feature [06:26] not really something we market around [06:27] you can just put a blurb in Easy customization, the app is ubuntu-specific anyways [06:27] hmm [06:31] Send To add another needless click.. === Burgundavia will conquer the docbook and make it look good [06:35] good luck..it will look good but not as what you envision [06:35] what is new and cool in Rhythmbox [06:35] docbook isnt for formatting [06:35] maybe then we just do it in HTML [06:36] much better [06:36] Burgundavia, its actually possible in docbook, but with wicked css [06:36] and not entirely sure of yelp's css [06:37] I will get my CSS-fooed in brother to help me tomorrow night then [06:38] if we do it in HTML, I need to figure out a way to do it in PDF as well [06:39] hmmm do it in OOo? [06:39] we can probably use Draw [06:39] html2ps [06:39] or Inkscape [06:39] and then ps2pdf [06:40] or htmldoc [06:41] can you do po files from html? [06:41] i have no idea [06:42] for i18n? [06:42] ya [06:53] I need some words to promote the GIMP [06:57] GIMP is too complicated [06:57] (for most people) [06:58] it would have been a different story if we had F-Spot and it is completed [06:58] gimp for image editing, dammit [06:59] f-spot is totally different app for a different purpose [06:59] f-spot will have some editing functions [07:00] yes, but it will not replace the gimp [07:00] majority of desktop users have no need for filters and channels [07:00] yes, but the marketing doc must reach everybody [07:01] honestly, to most people, power image editing is something that costs hundreds of dollars === jsgotangco checks what is the difference of gimp in breezy [07:01] not something included, by default, for free [07:01] well yes [07:01] notice what I said about easy software installation? [07:01] but we can't say we have a Photoshop 4 alternative when Photoshop is already at version 7 or 8 [07:01] "... at no cost" [07:01] GIMP is different and almost as powerful [07:02] im aware of that but people will still compare no matter what [07:02] that's why there was a gimp skin to make it look like photoshop [07:02] wow i didnt notice active windows blink [07:02] at the taskbar [07:02] yes [07:03] the gimp and inkscape are the kind of apps that appeal to the certain set of users [07:03] Burgundavia, GIMP doesn't even install a help document by default [07:03] as if we can make them say "wow!" about ubuntu, then that is cool [07:03] yes, I realize that [07:03] I don't understand why you don't want to talk about it [07:04] i don't mind talking about it, i just don't want a document that is too specific to segment that probably 80% of users dont really use [07:04] wow that was good english [07:05] yes [07:05] it is probably better if we add gimp, inkscape, and whatever that is in Main that is about image/multimedia in one section [07:06] inkscape is not installed by default [07:06] I wish it was [07:06] is it in the CD? [07:06] hmm [07:06] i dont think so [07:06] no [07:07] the graphics menu isn't really interesting to begin with [07:08] where did evince go? [07:08] its not in the menu but PDFs open up with it [07:08] hmm [07:08] why did they remove it from the menus? [07:09] no idea (xpdf is nowhere in sight either) === jblack [i=jblack@static-209-158-45-74.scr.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:24] Hi guys. [07:24] hey [07:24] hi jblack [07:24] hi everyone [07:24] jblack, Sept. 10 - PPV! [07:24] So, I bet there's probably a good reason. :) [07:24] historical [07:24] jsgotangco: PPV? Pay Per View? [07:25] one of the old doc team members set up an offsite svn repo [07:25] any other big reasons? [07:25] inertia? [07:25] there is some confusion over exactly what baz brings us [07:25] yes, and the other ones that came in are svn users [07:25] and the one burning question I have is, this [07:26] What branch gets released as "ubuntu help" and who controls that branch? [07:26] in a hypotethical bazaar context? [07:26] more of a social issue, but I wondered what you thought of it [07:26] ya [07:26] Yeah. We've had that question before on other projects, and have a pretty good answer. === Burgundavia is not surprised === ajmitch [n=ajmitch@203.89.166.146] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:27] i've used Baz with mpt and i got confused on that as well [07:27] What we normally do is setup something called pqm (that stands for patch queue manager). You could imagine pqm as an overgrown procmail [07:28] and people push to there? [07:28] That pqm is responsible for maintining the official branch. Then pqm is taught about good people (typically gpg signed emails), which can instruct pqm what,who what, where to do things on the archive's behalf. [07:29] the archive being the one that is "ubuntu help", in this context === lifeless [n=robertc@dsl-129.129.240.220.lns02-wick-bne.dsl.comindico.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === lifeless [n=robertc@dsl-129.129.240.220.lns02-wick-bne.dsl.comindico.com.au] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [07:29] Theres some good side effects to that too, of course, such as being able to run doc tests.... [07:29] Are there any hard core people subversion people involved in ubuntu docs? [07:29] not lately [07:30] They absolutely love the tech and would fall on their swords.. [07:30] no [07:30] I can already think of someone who would benefit ( rob^ ) [07:30] i've tried it and i like it [07:30] so have I [07:30] (as much as I like any command-line app0 [07:31] the acid test is on archive-mirror [07:31] jblack, how are you guys doing at svn imports (saving history, etc.) [07:31] jsgotangco: Just so happens that i run the supermirror. The supermirror can give push archives to anybody, if that's a sticking point. [07:31] burgundavia: Pretty good. [07:32] jblack, it segfaults [07:32] Sometimes we have to prop up a sagging wall here or there, but usually we get things thorugh. [07:32] jsgotangco: What segfaults? [07:32] archive-mirror to the super mirror [07:32] when mpt was teaching me [07:32] That's horrible. [07:33] i have yet to do a bug [07:33] I'll make a note on that -- on _paper_. Thats important [07:33] i can replicate it [07:33] jblack, we spoke at Mataro about baz. But then my life got in the way and I didn't do much with the doc team. [07:33] and report it [07:33] jsgotangco: That would definitely help gobs. [07:33] I think we're rushing ahead a little fast. [07:34] ok let's go back..the question is how are we going to migrate the whole documents at the moment in svn [07:34] I'd like to spend a couple days on this to make sure that everybody would be happy if we switched. If not, why. If there's a why, how does it get fixed.. so on and so on. [07:34] that's around 200MB but it should lessen post breezy [07:34] we drop some stuff [07:34] s/we drop/we can drop [07:35] I'll make sure there's a good structure, assuming this is the right thing to do. =) [07:35] i want baz, not sure if others do [07:35] What can you guys tell me about the team, socially speaking? How many people, what percentage are active.. what the social dynamics are. [07:35] I don't see any reason why baz is bad thing [07:35] we've started it with UbuntuHelp [07:35] 4 or 5 maybe active in SVN [07:36] varies at times [07:36] people mostly work on their own things [07:36] 2 working on one doc (faqguide) [07:37] Roughly how many are invovled on a specific subject? [07:37] usually only one at the moment [07:37] we are stretched pretty thin [07:37] (btw: I really appreciate you guys talking with me about this. You're really helping me catch up to this very quickly) [07:37] the faqguide has 2 working on it [07:37] You mean there's only 4 or 5 concurrant contributors at any given time? [07:37] usually [07:38] Holy shlt. How do you guys pull that off? [07:38] we sort of don [07:38] 't [07:38] we are also very badly coordinated [07:38] Heh. From the number of people that manage to run ubuntu with minimal problems, I think you pull it off better than you give yourself credit for. :) [07:39] that is not our work [07:39] there's a lot more people involved in the wiki, but far fewer "hardcore" Doc folks [07:39] So 4 or 5 solid people (two of which are you two) , a lot of loose, occasional people (I'm guessing perhaps ~ 20?)? [07:40] probably around 10, but ya [07:40] Who are the other 2 or 3 active these days? [07:40] jblack, the stumbling block really is the format used and our commit method [07:40] that's even less than the MOTUs [07:40] rob^ and mgalvin [07:40] the faqguide people [07:40] jjesse does some kde stuff [07:40] and rob^ is pro ubuntu. How about mgalvin? [07:41] and jeffsch is our style guide guy [07:41] pardon, pro baz [07:41] never heard anything either way [07:41] So they'd likely be open. [07:41] the major sticking point has sort of left eh doc team [07:41] Sean Wheller [07:41] If you don't mind me asking, who was that, and why? [07:42] he does docs for a job and unknown reasons [07:42] he's the documentation expert really [07:42] when is the doc team meeting? 25th or 26th? wiki + agenda has 26th. topic in #u-meeting has 25t === Burgundavia makes rude noises [07:42] robitaille, 26 [07:42] ok. I'll change the topic [07:42] robitaille, thanks [07:43] jsgotangco, that is moving it to friday [07:43] (not objecting, just wondering [07:43] Ok. This sounds promising. You've got me invested and ready to follow you on the process issues. === jblack pulls out graph paper [07:44] after the 5th we will be much more ready to rock the boat [07:44] jblack: we'll have to talk about how baz can help the MOTUs at some point [07:44] as after that we stop writing [07:44] ajmitch: Yeah. Thats coming, and soon at that. [07:44] until then, lets stick with svn [07:44] today is the... 25th or so.. [07:45] I don't think thats going to be a problem. ;) [07:45] so the week of the 5th you want to start pulling into baz? [07:45] we can work until late October and hopefully I will be in Montreal and we can look things over [07:45] Well, what sort of load average are you guys running? [07:45] # commits/day? [07:46] human wise. [07:46] overloaded [07:46] Yeah. going bald from stress stuff. [07:46] sounds familiar [07:46] running into time crunches [07:46] Don't worry. I won't screw you guys up right before release. [07:47] thanks [07:47] Its better to get release out of the way, and have time to fix unexpected mistakes. [07:47] jblack, going back to my segfault..its too cryptic..anything more verbose? [07:48] jsgotangco: Sure... Freed memory is being written to somewhere. ;) [07:48] If you can put up a reproducable bug, we'll chase it down. [07:48] i'd file a bug, but there isn't much to look [07:48] it just says Segmentations Fault [07:48] Well, thats definitely an important part to mention in the bug report. [07:49] Another important part to mention is the exact steps you take to get to where you were. [07:49] i'll just copy paste my terminal output [07:49] Oh, I wouldn't be able to fix it tonight. Sorry. :( [07:49] its ok [07:49] i just dont know what is wrong [07:49] and not really sure where to start [07:50] howdy dudes [07:50] i can merge with mpt's supermirror but cannot archive-mirror to mine [07:50] And you don't need to. Thats our problem, becoming your problem. I'm happy to trade you a bugfix for switching in the near future. [07:50] mpt has a supermirror? [07:50] You mean sourcecontrol.net? [07:50]