[03:17] <Burgundavia> rob^, join the club, I did the same thing with my old gpg key
[03:45] <rob^> heh
[04:11] <nickrud> anyone working tonight?
[04:12] <Madpilot> working? not really, just passing through
[04:12] <nickrud> hi Madpilot
[04:12] <Madpilot> hi nickrud
[04:13] <nickrud> I've actually begun to have some free time recently, so I've been rebuilding some of my old docs on the wiki
[04:14] <nickrud> The thing is, I'm also not sure just where the least effort will get the most results :)
[04:14] <Madpilot> You can always visit CategoryCleanup to see the pages most in need of help
[04:15] <nickrud> That's why I picked the voodoo thing as my learning page, it was in that list. It's a long one.
[04:16] <Madpilot> the whole laptop thing is going berzerk - most of the stuff in RecentChanges is laptops... cool
[04:16] <nickrud> don't have one of those.
[04:16] <Madpilot> I've sort of "adopted" the Apache pages, and BasicCommands
[04:16] <Madpilot> no, just a desktop here too
[04:17] <nickrud> I used BasicCommands for cleaning up the aptitude page. I'm also wondering about the style guide.
[04:17] <nickrud> and, of course, doc book. Is there a good book on that?
[04:18] <nickrud> paper.
[04:18] <Madpilot> no idea, I've barely skimmed the style guide myself, and never touched docbook
[04:19] <nickrud> One thing I've picked up while dabbling in debian is, patches are welcome, and just fixes might get done
[04:19] <nickrud> It's a reasonable attitude.
[04:20] <Madpilot> O'Reilly publish a "definitive guide to Doc Book", $36 USD though
[04:20] <Madpilot> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/docbook/index.html
[04:21] <nickrud> let's see, $26 in '00, and $36 in '05: cheap docs
[04:22] <Madpilot> OReilly isn't cheap, but they're damn good. My (few) O'Reilly books are always in use...
[04:22] <nickrud> One, on bash. It's travelled a lot :)
[04:23] <Madpilot> my O'Reilly CSS book is my web design bible...
[04:24] <nickrud> That's what you do?
[04:25] <Madpilot> not professionally
[04:25] <Madpilot> semi-pro
[04:25] <Madpilot> I maintain a couple of relative's websites, and a bunch of my own
[04:26] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/
[04:26] <nickrud> I know that place, I was there a while back. I got paid for fun.
[04:26] <Madpilot> yeah, I get paid to experiment with HTML/CSS. nice extra money
[04:27] <nickrud> back then, it was forth, believe it or don't.
[04:27] <Madpilot> cool. 
[04:28] <Madpilot> maintaining my stepmother's small-business site is more like work, though. I didn't build it, and the code is really, really bad
[04:28] <Madpilot> 20+ nested tables per page, so any small change takes forever... :(
[04:29] <Madpilot> what were you programming in forth?
[04:30] <Madpilot> hey, it's Frontpage, or whatever awful Whizzy editor was used on my stepmom's store site! <gag, retch, spit>
[04:30] <nickrud> www.usmisson.org. look at that.
[04:31] <Madpilot> typo in that URL? get "no such server" here
[04:31] <nickrud> as usual
[04:31] <nickrud> www.usmission.org
[04:33] <Madpilot> wow, what a classic piece of 1997-98 web design! (sorry, but it's true!)
[04:34] <nickrud> yup
[04:34] <nickrud> you pinned it pretty well, i think.
[04:34] <Madpilot> the construction of the maps is sort of cool - absolutely-positioned divs to get the blinking gifs where they're needed
[04:34] <Madpilot> but those blinking gifs... are blinkin' awful...
[04:34] <nickrud> lol
[04:34] <Madpilot> ;)
[04:35] <nickrud> I *always* apologize when I point people at that.
[04:35] <Madpilot> heh
[04:36] <Madpilot> actually, as a method of constructing that sort of "imagemap" type thing, the absolutely positioned divs are a good idea
[04:36] <Madpilot> it just need a graphics cleanup, badly...
[04:36] <nickrud> yeah, it hasn't changed for a long time.
[04:37] <Madpilot> lots of websites around like that
[04:37] <Madpilot> great burst of enthusiasm at the start, then it gathers virtual dust
[04:37] <nickrud> It's work, I'll grant you that.
[04:38] <Madpilot> especially making graphics changes
[04:38] <nickrud> Getting that last thing right.
[04:38] <Madpilot> graphics are way, way more work than code
[04:38] <nickrud> if you mean creation, it's generally more than work, I think
[04:39] <nickrud> I use free graphics, me.
[04:40] <Madpilot> home graphics is 1/3rd artistry, 1/3 knowing your program (the GIMP or PS), and 1/3rd code work
[04:40] <nickrud> ok, it's 2/3's work :)
[04:41] <Madpilot> and 3x harder than just coding!
[04:41] <mpt> arrrrrhhhh
[04:41] <nickrud> which one?
[04:41] <mpt> http://www.usmission.org/KansasCity.html
[04:41] <Madpilot> one oddity on that mission site is the mix of divs and tables - with no need for tables at all...
[04:42] <mpt> awww, it does a fancy fade effect
[04:42] <mpt> how cute
[04:42] <Madpilot> a fancy fade effect with really, really blurry graphics
[04:42] <nickrud> excuse me, I have to go load java. be back.
[04:43] <Madpilot> and then a huge chunk of text that's actually an image - that's not cool either...
[04:43] <mpt> heh
[04:43] <mpt> Anyone remember Corel Office for Java?
[04:43] <Madpilot> Corel what for where? ;)
[04:44] <mpt> It took about 10~15 minutes to start up
[04:45] <Madpilot> full Java apps can do that on slow machines...
[04:45] <rob^> yep
[04:46] <Madpilot> we use a Java app at work - staff-side at the library - that is glacial to start, even on the new machines we've got
[04:46] <Madpilot> it's painful...
[04:47] <Madpilot> need food and drink - bbl
[04:48] <nickrud> I hope no one thinks I had anything to do with that site ;P
[04:49] <Madpilot> not your design work, then? ;)
[04:50] <nickrud> I couldn't even get the simple pages I wanted loaded onto the site, so no.
[04:51] <Madpilot> ah well
[04:51] <Madpilot> I finally talked my stepmother into letting me rebuild her business site this fall, so it'll be cleaner & faster, both to load and to update
[04:52] <nickrud> me, I talked the board into rebuilding my foundation. Now people won't trip. 
[04:52] <rob^> bbs
[04:53] <nickrud> One more time increment freed :)
[04:54] <nickrud> so, I guess I'll look around the cleanup category, and see what I see.
[05:49] <rob^> grr@wget segfaulting
[09:10] <klepas> !info gaim
[09:10] <klepas> wait
[09:10] <klepas> this is not the cli is it... :-P
[09:14] <Madpilot> ubotu doesn't hang out here, try the main channel!
[05:23] <jsgotangco>  /j