[12:48] <jalrnc> question: will the quicktour have a .po file for translation? I couldn't find it in the svn repo
[01:03] <Madpilot> jalrnc: eventually I guess it will, not sure if that'll make Breezy or not though
[01:06] <jalrnc> so it may not be possible to include any translations at all with breezy?
[01:09] <Madpilot> I really don't know
[01:10] <Madpilot> I"m slightly involved in the Quick Guide - I did a lot of the current XHTML/CSS layout - but I don't know how the translation process works
[02:40] <jalrnc> Madpilot: thanks
[02:41] <Madpilot> no problem. if you are able to help with translation, i'm sure the doc-team will be glad to hear from you!
[02:45] <mpt> "Of course, besides the network option, [Mozilla]  can also be used as a standalone HTML viewer."
[02:45] <mpt> Who *writes* this stuff
[02:45] <Madpilot> what's that from?
[02:46] <mpt> The description of Mozilla in gnome-app-install
[02:47] <jalrnc> Madpilot: I'm the PT LoCoTeam leader, we've been involved in the translations and would love to help further :) I'll send an email to the doc list asking about the quicktour doc
[02:47] <Madpilot> mpt: is it too late to just get rid of that entire line?
[02:47] <Madpilot> jalrnc: PT = Portugal, right?
[02:48] <mpt> Madpilot: Oh, probably
[02:48] <Madpilot> mpt: too bad. I don't think it would be missed... bugreport it for breezy+1?
[02:49] <mpt> Madpilot: Yeah, I guess ... But it's nothing special
[02:49] <mpt> There's text all over the place like that
[02:49] <Madpilot> the joys of Linux documentation... ;)
[02:50] <mpt> yeah, but not just the documentation
[02:50] <mpt> e.g. the main window of g-a-i itself: "This program allows you to add or remove programs with a click of a button." <-- that's not telling me anything, amigo
[02:50] <Madpilot> my favourite is gFTP, which appears to be *entirely* undocumented beyond a fairly short man page, even on the gFTP website...
[02:52] <mpt> Another example: the Boot Manager Settings window has a spinbox: "Seconds to wait before loading default kernel or OS". It doesn't mention what is the point of waiting at all.
[02:52] <jalrnc> Madpilot: yep
[02:54] <mpt> ooh, ooh, here's a good one: "You seem to be running gnome-pilot for the first time."
[02:56] <mpt> There needs to be ... I dunno, some sort of culture of brevity established
[02:57] <Madpilot> .whois mpt
[02:57] <mpt> Does this sentence help Aunt Tillie? Does it help cousin Arlo? If not, cut it out.
[02:57] <Madpilot> ... sorry...
[02:57] <Madpilot> "culture of brevity" - I like that phrase
[02:57] <mpt> Same for words, and for syllables.
[02:58] <Madpilot> but... but extraneous polysyllables are *cool*! :)
[02:59] <Madpilot> extraneous polysyllabilac verbiage - even cooler
[03:01] <mpt> yeah
[03:01] <Madpilot> ... except that I can't spell today...
[03:02] <mpt> Symptoms of extraneous polysyllabic verbiage: "enable", "allow", "In this window you can", "the user"
[03:03] <Madpilot> yup
[03:03] <mpt> jdub: awake?
[03:04] <jdub> yo
[03:04] <jdub> can't stay long
[03:04] <mpt> jdub: Ok, well, in three sentences or fewer: how did gnome start caring about usability?
[03:04] <mpt> What happened?
[03:04] <jdub> holy crap dude
[03:05] <mpt> I remember there was a lot of use of the word "crack"
[03:05] <mpt> which seemed to be a kind of bludgeon
[03:05] <mpt> but there must have been more to it than that
[03:05] <jdub> a lot of deep introspective thought, a lot of agitating on behalf of particular people, a lot of consideration of our target market, a lot of consideration about the receipe we needed for success, etc.
[03:06] <jdub> understanding that freedom is not just for geeks
[03:06] <mpt> lots of hard work, then
[03:06] <jdub> yes, once the ideas were there, a fuckload of hard work to prove it
[03:07] <jdub> anyway, have to run
[03:07] <mpt> ok, thanks
[03:07] <jdub> i'm sure there's a longer discussion in this :)
[03:08] <mpt> yeah
[03:08] <mpt> about going to the next level
[03:08] <mpt> (at the risk of clicheing myself)
[03:09] <jdub> did you watch my guadec talk video?
[03:09] <mpt> no, I've been meaning to watch the guadec videos for ... some time now
[03:10] <mpt> I only got halfway through the selinux one
[03:11] <mpt> oh, these are files I can't watch on my Mac
[03:11] <mpt> because Ogg for Mac has been broken for the past ~6 months
[03:11] <jdub> bonus
[03:12] <jdub> mine has some of this stuff in it
[03:14] <mpt> Apple makes QuickTime for Windows, because it's in their interests to make sure people can watch QuickTime formats
[03:14] <mpt> Microsoft makes Windows Media Player for Mac OS, because it's in their interests to make sure people can watch Windows Media formats
[03:15] <mpt> Linux distributors should club together to hire someone to maintain Ogg plugins for Windows and OS X, for the same reason
[03:26] <jsgotangco> hey all
[03:28] <Madpilot> hi
[03:32] <mpt> hi jsgotangco
[03:34] <jsgotangco> hey
[04:23] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, ping?
[05:04] <jsgotangco> hey jeffsch 
[05:06] <jeffsch> jsgotangco: hey
[05:07] <jsgotangco> jeffsch, i was studying our svn folder structre last night, its so unfriendly for packaging
[05:09] <jeffsch> well, then, i guess i'm glad i don't know how to do packaging :)
[05:09] <jeffsch> we got lots of work to do after breezy
[05:09] <jsgotangco> what the package did back then was re-edit the doc just to fit in
[05:09] <jsgotangco> and copy a lot of the common/libs stuff for every doc
[05:10] <jeffsch> hmmm... i didn't know that
[05:10] <jsgotangco> if you look at /usr/share/gnome/help/ you'll see every ubuntu doc has its own copy of common and libs
[05:11] <jsgotangco> so from our working copy we refer to ./../../foo
[05:11] <jsgotangco> but in the package it is changed to just ./
[05:12] <jsgotangco> it took me an hour to figure out what was the problem till i took a peek into the old docs that were installed
[05:12] <jeffsch> i think part of the problem back then was that the xslt was not dealing with the paths properly
[05:12] <jsgotangco> ideally, the working copy should mimic the packaging
[05:12] <jsgotangco> but that means every entry has its own common and libs which isnt really a good idea
[05:12] <jeffsch> the "strip path" template in the nwalsh xslt is broken in version 1.66
[05:13] <jsgotangco> for someone who is good at packaging it might be trivial, but it took me a while to figure it out
[05:14] <jsgotangco> (the scrollkeeper part was easy btw)
[05:15] <jeffsch> will you have to do the same thing again, that is, give each doc its own common and libs?
[05:15] <jsgotangco> if i was only doing one doc, yes
[05:15] <jsgotangco> but it would be impractical with our workflow
[05:15] <jsgotangco> we'll have a lot of global.ents
[05:16] <jsgotangco> for starters
[05:16] <jeffsch> we only have two for breezy anyway, right?
[05:16] <jsgotangco> right
[05:16] <jsgotangco> its also possible if we put our entities in a separate path
[05:17] <jsgotangco> so that all ubuntu-docs will point there instead of having their own
[05:17] <jsgotangco> it would mimic our working copy
[05:18] <jeffsch> wait a minute... we are shipping html, right? If so, what do we need global.ent for?
[05:18] <jeffsch> we only need to mimic the build directory
[05:18] <jsgotangco> right we actually have no need for it for breezy
[05:18] <jsgotangco> considering yelp is slower than ever, html was a good choice
[05:32] <jeffsch> hey rob^
[05:34] <jeffsch> rob^: did you ever use esvn?
[05:34] <jeffsch> if you did, and if you have any backups of your old machine, you can recover you svn password from it
[05:35] <jeffsch> esvn stores the svn password in the clear, in the file esvnrc
[05:37] <jsgotangco> hmm i didnt know that
[05:37] <jsgotangco> heh
[05:37] <jsgotangco> hmmm this bug filed is upstream
[06:15] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsPrinters <-- added a plea for more data from users, and a link to linuxprinting.org
[06:17] <robitaille> I wonder if it is worth sending an email to the mailing list.   
[06:17] <Madpilot> about?
[06:18] <robitaille> the printers and asking for data points from users
[06:18] <Madpilot> might be worth it - look how many community laptops are in the laptop project now
[06:19] <robitaille> exactly.   People are always eager to help.
[06:19] <robitaille> but often they don't know where to start.
[06:21] <Madpilot> I think I'll bother Burgundavia to blog it; lots of people seem to follow planet.ubuntu
[06:22] <robitaille> I can do it.  I haven't blogged in a while on planet.
[06:22] <Madpilot> cool
[06:23] <Madpilot> if we start getting lots of printers, a bit more organization might be in order
[06:23] <Madpilot> seperate tables by manufacturer, I think
[06:23] <Madpilot> otherwise it gets to be this huge unreadable monster table...
[06:25] <robitaille> hummm... is the rendering that worse with large big table vs a bunch of smaller ones?
[06:26] <Madpilot> I find that it just gets harder to pick info out of a longer table, even one as well-designed as the Printer table already is
[06:26] <Madpilot> you keep scrolling down... and scrolling down... and scrolling down...
[06:27] <robitaille> but I'm afraid users who come there with a printer from a strange manufacturer will not know where to put it if the table doesn't exist
[06:27] <Madpilot> good point
[06:27] <HrdwrBoB> there's a LOT of printerst though
[06:27] <HrdwrBoB> hundreds and hundreds
[06:28] <HrdwrBoB> different model numbers for the same thing in different countries
[06:28] <HrdwrBoB> etc etc
[06:28] <robitaille> and we have no idea when these things were tested.  For what we know, most of them may have been done with Warty.  Maybe we need a column with the Ubuntu version in there
[06:28] <Madpilot> looking thru linuxprinting.org's database proves that
[06:28] <Madpilot> robitaille: there is a column for "last updated"
[06:30] <robitaille> darn small screen.  I didn't even see it on the right of my screen :)
[06:31] <robitaille> still, it shouldn't be a date, but an Ubuntu version.  A date is somewhat useless
[06:31] <Madpilot> heh. couldn't live without my 19"...
[06:32] <Madpilot> perhaps an extra column for "Ubuntu Version" outside the "Last Updated" one?
[06:32] <robitaille> I'm on the 14in laptop right now....
[06:32] <robitaille> yes; that sounds good
[06:33] <Madpilot> OK, I'll add it now.
[06:33] <robitaille> I would put them on the left of the comment column...but that's a lot more work to move stuff around
[06:33] <Madpilot> easier to add it to the outside of the table than somewhere in the middle of the thing...
[06:33] <robitaille> exactly.  it's a bit too late know.
[06:34] <robitaille> s/know/now
[06:34] <Madpilot> yeah
[06:34] <Madpilot> tables are messy at the best of times. tables in Moin markup... well...
[06:35] <Madpilot> hmmm... actually, I'll add it to the left of Comments, it's all a matter of pasting anyway
[06:37] <robitaille> cupsys-driver-gimpprint is now in main, not in universe.  so quite a few of these report haven't been touched since Warty
[06:38] <robitaille> and it seems cupsys-driver-gimpprint is now installed by default in Breezy.  interesting
[06:40] <Madpilot> I should have taken some notes when I was isntalling this printer in Hoary last month. I can't remember what I had to install and what was already loaded...
[06:46] <Madpilot> OK, "Ubuntu Version" column added
[07:16] <jsgotangco> printers?
[07:16] <jsgotangco> Printer manufacturers are dumb in their model naming conventions as well
[07:21] <Madpilot> not much dumber than the rest of the computer industry...
[07:23] <jsgotangco> a few weeks ago, i actually received a telegraph message
[07:23] <jsgotangco> heh
[07:23] <Madpilot> a what? cool!
[07:23] <jsgotangco> some parts of the my country still rely on it
[07:24] <Madpilot> did you get to decipher the Morse Code yourself, too? ;)
[07:24] <jsgotangco> no
[07:24] <jsgotangco> i just received the paper
[07:24] <jsgotangco> heh
[07:25] <jsgotangco> but there is already a plan by the government to shut down the telegraph bureau
[07:25] <Madpilot> ... _ _ _ ...  _ _ _ ... _ _ _  ... _ _ _ ...
[07:25] <jsgotangco> haha
[07:26] <Madpilot> if I remember my Morse, that should have been "SOS" in Morse...
[07:26] <jsgotangco> wonder if ships still has this thing
[07:27] <jsgotangco> what do submarines use?
[07:27] <jsgotangco> ah sonar righ
[07:27] <jsgotangco> t
[07:27] <Madpilot> subs use ULF - Ultra Long Wave - really, really slow, but it can penetrate water better than normal radio
[07:28] <jsgotangco> similar to what dolphins and whales use i guess?
[07:29] <Madpilot> they really do use sonar/sound to talk - so do subs, but when subs need to use radio they can do ULF without surfacing
[07:30] <jsgotangco> what do planes use anyway
[07:30] <Madpilot> VHF mostly
[07:30] <Madpilot> it's line of sight only
[07:30] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[07:30] <Madpilot> HF for non-LOS stuff, like in isolated regions
[07:31] <Madpilot> getting my pilot's license has filled me with communications trivia... ;)
[07:31] <jsgotangco> i thought planes have this frequency hiway to avoid colliding with each other
[07:31] <Madpilot> planes mostly don't collide with each other because it's a big sky, and because pilots don't like hitting things
[07:32] <jsgotangco> ok so the air traffic controller is only useful for landing and take off?
[07:32] <jsgotangco> while on the air, you're mostly on your own?
[07:32] <Madpilot> it depends where the air is, really.
[07:32] <Madpilot> even a lot of airports have no air traffic control
[07:32] <jsgotangco> scary
[07:33] <HrdwrBoB> not really
[07:33] <Madpilot> and there's lots of airspace (at least in Canada) where you don't even need a radio to fly
[07:33] <HrdwrBoB> most highways dont' have .. highway control
[07:33] <HrdwrBoB> there's more air than there is road
[07:33] <Madpilot> lots more air. plus pilots are smarter than drivers - or at least better trained!
[07:33] <jsgotangco> true i was just wondering how commercial airlines do it though if that's the case
[07:33] <Madpilot> the big jets are talking to somebody all the time, more or less
[07:34] <HrdwrBoB> big airports are strictly timed
[07:34] <HrdwrBoB> and managed
[07:35] <Madpilot> at any big airport, you're going to be on radar & radio from a long way out, especially if you're an airliner
[07:36] <jsgotangco> how about those small planes (cessna, whatever)
[07:36] <Madpilot> that's what I fly
[07:36] <Madpilot> they're fun
[07:36] <jsgotangco> you bought one?
[07:36] <Madpilot> and depending on the airspace, you don't have to talk to anyone. 
[07:37] <Madpilot> hah. no, I rent. even a used plane is expensive
[07:37] <jsgotangco> i would imagine, it probably uses jet fuel too
[07:37] <Madpilot> no, just high-octane gas. 100 octane (where most car gas is ~80-90 octane)
[07:38] <jsgotangco> that sounds fun
[07:39] <Madpilot> flying small planes is great.
[07:39] <Madpilot> I took an 11 year old boy up last Sunday - the son of a co-worker - it was his first time in a small plane. I think he's hooked
[07:39] <jsgotangco> can you actually learn from a sim?
[07:39] <Madpilot> not really.
[07:39] <Madpilot> the flight sims just aren't the same
[07:39] <jsgotangco> ive seen some sims and they look complicated
[07:40] <jsgotangco> well yeah even with force feedback technology
[07:40] <Madpilot> Oh, they're complex, but they're still not much like the real thing
[07:40] <Madpilot> even with force feedback - which is pretty crap - there's far more input in the real thing for a sim to really compare
[07:41] <Madpilot> plus sims encourage too much looking at the instrument panel, while in regular real flying, you need to have your eyes outside the cockpit more than in...
[07:42] <Madpilot> ajmitch: I'm not quite that mad a pilot... ;)
[07:42] <ajmitch> you could run them through a script anyway :)
[07:42] <Madpilot> I'm sure somewhere on the net there's an English-Morse translator already set up
[07:42] <Burgundavia> ajmitch, jsgotangco you have any experience with pulling PO's out of html?
[07:43] <ajmitch> no, I don't
[07:43] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, but in big planes like a jumbo jet, you always refer to the instrument panel
[07:43] <Madpilot> actually, I think I've got a Morse TTF font somewhere around...
[07:43] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, nope sorry
[07:43] <jsgotangco> i couldn't answer the email
[07:43] <Burgundavia> I just responded
[07:43] <Madpilot> jsgotangco: mostly, but even there, the traffic (other planes) are outside the cockpit...
[07:46] <jsgotangco> i guess autopilot is overrated =)
[07:47] <Madpilot> jsgotangco: haven't flown a plane with one yet, myself (but the biggest thing I've ever flown only has four seats, so...)
[07:54] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IssuesAsNoviceUbuntuUser  <-- noticed this in RecentChanges - seems more like a forum post than wiki material?
[08:05] <robitaille> finally added my printer (z53) to the wiki printer page.   Time to blog about it to try to get people to fill up the blanks
[08:06] <Madpilot> excellent
[08:09] <Madpilot> robitaille: not comment? other ppl seem to have trouble with their Lexmark's
[08:10] <Madpilot> my lexmark was dying before I switched to Linux, so it never did work right, but I didn't try very hard with it...
[08:10] <jsgotangco> Lexmark is the dumbest of them all
[08:10] <Madpilot> expensive ink, too
[08:10] <jsgotangco> we actually have a huge cottage industry of ink refills targetted to lexmark
[08:11] <Madpilot> I believe it...
[08:11] <jsgotangco> its actually dumb because one of the biggest lexmark factories are located down south here
[08:11] <Madpilot> no Linux support from Lexmark, either...
[08:12] <jsgotangco> its a pain, they may be the cheapest one here but they're the hardest to use 
[08:13] <jsgotangco> very few people buy lexmark here really, but the computer resellers give them away so...
[08:13] <robitaille> Madpilot,  that's not true, my z53 came with Mandrake drivers.
[08:13] <Madpilot> here, buying new ink for a Lexmark costs nearly as much as buying the printer in the first place! (cheap printer, expensive ink...)
[08:13] <Madpilot> robitaille: really? that's cool.
[08:14] <robitaille> but ink is expensive; but I got the printer for free, and I very rarely print anyway
[08:14] <Madpilot> I should scrounge up my old Z32 CD, and see what's actually on it now
[08:14] <robitaille> I remember that they even had the little penguin logo on the box beside the Windows and Mac logos
[08:15] <Madpilot> nothing like that on mine :(
[08:16] <robitaille> http://www.lexmark.com/US/products/tech_specs/0,1231,MTg0NHwx,00.html for the complete list of linux supported
[08:16] <robitaille> but I stil end up using gimp-print under Ubuntu since it is setup by default that way
[08:17] <Madpilot> Mandrake, SuSE & Redhat - OK, better than I'd thought
[09:19] <robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kurdish   it's a recent page.  I'm a big confused why someone would cut and paste from the web; and it doesn't seem to be linked from anywhere else.
[09:20] <Madpilot> robitaille: I noticed that myself a day or two ago, not sure what the point of it was, either
[09:20] <Madpilot> have you confirmed that it's pure cut'n'paste?
[09:21] <robitaille> http://www.cogsci.ed.ac.uk/~siamakr/Kurdish/iran-lang.html
[09:22] <Madpilot> bingo
[09:22] <Madpilot> I was just checking Wikipedia, actually
[09:22] <robitaille> the power of a google search :)
[09:22] <Madpilot> I'll vote for deletion, it's both copyright violation & doesn't seem relevant to Ubuntu
[09:23] <Madpilot> a Kurdish-lang. Ubuntu would be cool, but we don't need a massive page on the language...
[09:24] <rob^> Burgundavia, hmm
[09:24] <rob^> oops
[09:24] <Madpilot> ?
[09:24] <jsgotangco> wait let me sse it heh
[09:24] <rob^> stupid tab key
[09:24] <jsgotangco> oh my it looks like a wikipedia entry heh
[09:24] <Madpilot> it's cut'n'paste from that 2nd URL robitaille's posted...
[09:25] <rob^> would we say: "Synaptics" or "Synaptic's" in: "..Synaptics/'s full usage is explained below".
[09:26] <jsgotangco> err
[09:26] <jsgotangco> Synaptics'
[09:26] <jsgotangco> you don't use 's on a word that has s at the end
[09:26] <rob^> hmm, I was also thinking that could have been it
[09:26] <jsgotangco> unless english AU allows it =)
[09:26] <rob^> man I hate english!
[09:27] <Madpilot> it's an awful language
[09:27] <robitaille> try to learn it when it's not your native tongue :)
[09:27] <jsgotangco> unforutnately everyone uses it
[09:27] <rob^> yeah, I have heard that its hard
[09:27] <Madpilot> robitaille: you grew up speaking French?
[09:27] <robitaille> yeah, life is not fair, why doesn't everyone uses french?
[09:27] <jsgotangco> english isn't my native language
[09:28] <Madpilot> it's my only language, really, but it's still awful!
[09:28] <robitaille> Madpilot,  yes, french is my first language.  Mostly learned english after I turned 16
[09:28] <jsgotangco> i grew up learning 2 languages and 3 dialects
[09:30] <robitaille> humm... still a bit bare :)  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyReleaseNotes
[09:30] <Madpilot> I can order beer politely in half a dozen European languages... ;)
[09:30] <jsgotangco> robitaille, leave it as is, jbailey will be filling it up soon as well as me
[09:30] <robitaille> jsgotangco,  I know.  I just saw it while cleaning up my mailbox
[09:31] <Madpilot> robitaille: just saw your printer blog post - good
[09:31] <Madpilot> for the printers, what exactly counts as "Supported" as a seperate thing for "Working"?
[09:31] <rob^> hmm why is spell check not working in evolution?
[09:31] <jsgotangco> robitaille, did you get your ubuntu.com email?
[09:32] <robitaille> yes...and you should have it as well.
[09:32] <robitaille> it was turned on earlier, based on your LP address
[09:32] <jsgotangco> elmo emailed me earlier that i haven't signed the CoC heh
[09:32] <robitaille> Madpilot,  supported:  Ubuntu knows about your printer;  work: you can get it to work, but the correct driver, or a workaround
[09:33] <robitaille> jsgotangco,  :)
[09:33] <Madpilot> robitaille: OK. just thinking of adding some actual detail to the intro blurb on that page
[09:34] <robitaille> signed my CoC long before I became a member;  I was one of the early Ubuntites
[09:34] <robitaille> Madpilot,  sounds good.  
[09:35] <jsgotangco> robitaille, what is your email then?
[09:36] <robitaille> robitaille@ubuntu.com
[09:36] <jsgotangco> l337
[09:36] <robitaille> simple, easy to remember :)
[09:36] <jsgotangco> its a forwarder?
[09:36] <robitaille> yes
[09:36] <robitaille> it forward to your launchpad prefered email address
[09:37] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[09:37] <robitaille> which means you can't use your @ubuntu address to log in LP
[09:42] <jsgotangco> did anyone patch rob^ diff already
[09:42] <Madpilot> anyone know what "PPD" actually stands for? (linuxprinting.org does even seem to have a def'n...)
[09:43] <jsgotangco> err PPD?
[09:43] <jsgotangco> shouldnt it be LPD
[09:43] <robitaille> PostScript Printer Description
[09:44] <Madpilot> robitaille: thanks
[09:44] <robitaille> the printer files often are whatever.ppd
[09:44] <robitaille> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostScript_Printer_Description
[09:45] <robitaille> wikipedia never fails to amaze me nowadays
[09:45] <Madpilot> "the file used to tell Ubuntu your printer's settings" <-- decent one-line newbie-friendly summary of a PPD?
[09:46] <Madpilot> "...settings & abilities." is probably better...
[09:52] <rob^> hey, has anyone seen the unofficial lite ubuntu project?
[09:52] <Madpilot> yeah
[09:52] <Madpilot> is their webpage layout still broken?
[09:53] <rob^> yeah, there is a wiki which is much better though
[09:55] <mdke> hi all
[09:55] <rob^> hi mdke 
[09:55] <mdke> hi
[09:55] <mdke> nice work on faq guide
[09:55] <rob^> yeah thanks
[09:55] <mdke> how is it going?
[09:56] <rob^> corey and jeffsch are doing a good job on reviewing it
[09:56] <rob^> I've sought of stepped back for the last week or so and let them go
[09:56] <mdke> cool
[09:56] <jsgotangco> hey mdke 
[09:56] <mdke> hi jsgotangco 
[09:56] <jsgotangco> long time no chat
[09:56] <rob^> doesn't help that I don't have my svn password..
[09:57] <mdke> rob^: yeah i read that, elmo should be getting up soon so try him from now onwards
[09:57] <rob^> gtg to work in 5 minutes :(
[09:57] <mdke> jsgotangco: :( I've been a bit out of touch lately with only dial-up and windows
[09:57] <jsgotangco> broandband still hasn't moved?
[09:57] <mdke> no it is taking ages
[09:58] <mdke> i'm drowning in a sea of webmail
[09:59] <mdke> how are things going?
[09:59] <jsgotangco> hmmm going good
[09:59] <jsgotangco> wonder if jbailey got mdz to nod on removing the freeze
[10:00] <mdke> removing the freeze?
[10:00] <jsgotangco> yeah
[10:00] <mdke> in what way?
[10:00] <jsgotangco> we can still write docs after preview
[10:00] <jsgotangco> and finish up just in time
[10:00] <mdke> oh
[10:00] <mdke> so will translation be done after release then?
[10:01] <mdke> the freeze is there to enable translation to get started before release
[10:01] <jsgotangco> well translators will be definitely unhappy if we extend further after the freeze
[10:01] <jsgotangco> but since we only have 2 main docs, i think we're safe =)
[10:02] <mdke> so when will translation start?
[10:03] <mdke> is extending the doc freeze absolutely necessary?
[10:04] <Madpilot> OK, got the intro info done (I think) on the Printer page. thoughts, anyone? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsPrinters
[10:04] <mdke> it would be a shame not to have translation done
[10:05] <jsgotangco> if anyone can review About Ubuntu now i can make this final and have it open for translation i guess
[10:06] <mdke> ok
[10:06] <mdke> what about the other docs?
[10:06] <mdke> are they not going to be ready for the freeze?
[10:06] <Burgundavia> mdke, QuickTour is coming along
[10:06] <mdke> :)
[10:07] <mdke> hi corey
[10:07] <Burgundavia> mdke, yes, html to po is not fun, but hey
[10:08] <mdke> i looked into it with the ubuntuguide some months back
[10:08] <mdke> it was hell
[10:08] <mdke> it works only with strict html
[10:08] <mdke> (x)
[10:08] <mdke> we'll work something out though I'm sure
[10:08] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, is the QuickTour strict html?
[10:08] <Madpilot> ouch. the QuickTour is not strict...
[10:09] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, can we make it so?
[10:09] <Madpilot> I'm not sure
[10:10] <mdke> i think strict xhtml is simply an implementation of xml
[10:10] <Madpilot> It does validate, but it's not using a Strict HTML doctype
[10:10] <mdke> like docbook is
[10:11] <Madpilot> it's currently XHTML 1.0 Transitional
[10:11] <Madpilot> we can't make it Strict XHTML without getting rid of the tables, I think
[10:12] <Madpilot> but let me look into the Strict XHTML def'n for a minute
[10:14] <mdke> jsgotangco?
[10:14] <jsgotangco> hey
[10:14] <jsgotangco> i was fixing my touchpad
[10:14] <Madpilot> ... for the folks in charge of markup, the W3C have some crappy, crappy webpages... 
[10:15] <mdke> jsgotangco: so you were talking about postponing the doc freeze
[10:15] <jsgotangco> mdke, i wasn't it was jbailey's idea
[10:15] <jsgotangco> and we're not optimistic of mdz approving such
[10:15] <mdke> ok, but i was curious as to the reason
[10:15] <jsgotangco> in case you didn't know, our docs broke the pre-colony 4 build
[10:16] <mdke> ok so the problem is with the package?
[10:16] <jsgotangco> yes but it got fixed already
[10:16] <jsgotangco> we don't have ubuntu-quickguide anymore but  ubuntu-desktop depends on it
[10:16] <mdke> ok so what is the precise issue?
[10:17] <jsgotangco> so stage 2 wouldn't continue
[10:17] <mdke> yeah i understand that
[10:17] <mdke> but that is not a problem with the docs themselves, just with the package
[10:18] <mdke> what is the reason for extending the doc freeze?
[10:18] <jsgotangco> but its already finished
[10:18] <mdke> there must be one...
[10:18] <jsgotangco> mdke, to clean it up further
[10:18] <jsgotangco> even have a release notes
[10:18] <mdke> ok... now you're answering my question!
[10:18] <jsgotangco> edubuntu doesn't have a doc freeze
[10:18] <mdke> which docs aren't going to be ready for doc freeze?
[10:18] <Burgundavia> but edubuntu 5.10 is mostly a large beta release
[10:19] <jsgotangco> i did a quick edit of About Ubuntu
[10:20] <mdke> Burgundavia: just to change the subject quickly, is the last bit of the quicktour (the opencd project thing) still true for breezy?
[10:20] <mdke> i heard they were combining the live and install cds and getting rid of the opencd stuff
[10:20] <mdke> jsgotangco: is faqguide going to be ready?
[10:21] <jsgotangco> mdke, there are still some entries that are not consistent with jeffsch's editing
[10:21] <mdke> ok
[10:21] <mdke> well if you think there are good reasons for extending the freeze, and they outweigh the interests of translators, then maybe it is a good idea to ask for an extension
[10:22] <Burgundavia> mdke, yes. UbuntuExpress didn't make breezy
[10:22] <mdke> k
[10:22] <Burgundavia> mdke, and thus we are stuck with the d-i for one more relesae
[10:22] <mdke> fine by me
[10:22] <jsgotangco> that's not so bad, you already had your request on removing the root terminal =)
[10:22] <mdke> i like it
[10:23] <Burgundavia> the quicktour is basically done except for screenshots, and those don't need to be done for string freeze anyway
[10:25] <mdke> jsgotangco: ?
[10:25] <mdke> Burgundavia: cool
[10:25] <jsgotangco> mdke, there's no reason at the moment considering the status of the 2 docs, we will only extend just to add a relase notes as jbailey indicated
[10:25] <Burgundavia> mdke, what do you think of the quicktour generally?
[10:26] <mdke> Burgundavia: looks great
[10:26] <jsgotangco> mdke, but considering the state of our shippable docs, it can be opened up for translation
[10:26] <mdke> ok sounds good
[10:26] <jsgotangco> mdke, the question now is do we do the PO files or through rosetta
[10:26] <mdke> rosetta uses po files
[10:26] <mdke> so i would go with both
[10:26] <jsgotangco> can we feed xml to rosetta?
[10:27] <mdke> no
[10:27] <mdke> we can make the po files and then upload them via carlos/daf/jordi or whoever
[10:27] <jsgotangco> OK
[10:28] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I have one large edit in installing-applications left
[10:28] <jsgotangco> i would request anyone then to review About Ubuntu, Quick Guide and FAQ Guide 
[10:28] <Burgundavia> then we need to polish what is there
[10:28] <jsgotangco> and make the necessary edits if needed
[10:28] <mdke> i will TRY and have a look at About ubuntu today, but I can't promise anything sadly
[10:28] <jsgotangco> mdke, email would do
[10:28] <Burgundavia> mdke, how is the rest of your life going?
[10:28] <mdke> i'm pretty bummed I haven't been able to help lately
[10:28] <jsgotangco> how is your laptop going
[10:29] <Madpilot> for the XHTML Strict & po translations - does the damn thing actually have to validate as XHTML Strict?
[10:29] <mdke> fine, but windows only
[10:29] <mdke> Burgundavia: actually quite well
[10:29] <mdke> apart form not having broadband
[10:29] <Burgundavia> mdke, ouch
[10:29] <mdke> Madpilot: yeah, but if you can't do it, don't worry, we'll think of something else
[10:30] <mdke> Burgundavia: yeah and my modem is not supported by Ubuntu
[10:30] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, what is the stumbling block?
[10:30] <mdke> i think strict xhtml is rather different to transitional
[10:30] <Burgundavia> mdke, my wired nic and my modem are not detected, but my wireless is atheros, so I am good to go
[10:30] <Madpilot> mdke: I know too little about XHTML, there's one non-validating bit that I flat-out don't understand...
[10:30] <mdke> ah
[10:30] <mdke> maybe we can find someone who does?
[10:31] <Madpilot> I'll generate a diff on the stuff I've done, and post that to the list in a bit.
[10:31] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, ok
[10:33] <jsgotangco> err guys in case im not online and jbailey is around can anyone follow him up on the scrollkeeper - yelp integration of our docs for preview
[10:33] <jsgotangco> i have an idea what needs to be done but will still need jbailey's packaging
[10:33] <mdke> our docs are html right?
[10:33] <jsgotangco> yes
[10:33] <jsgotangco> you still need to register it
[10:34] <mdke> ok
[10:34] <mdke> i won't be around either
[10:34] <jsgotangco> an omf file would do =)
[10:34] <mdke> the dial-up bill is growing
[10:35] <jsgotangco> ok im positive this is workable within the day
[10:35] <Madpilot> anyone know what the heck XHTML Strict uses instead of <ul> for an unordered list? All my books are HTML-based...
[10:36] <jsgotangco> oopps we have a preview issue
[10:36] <Burgundavia> mdke, the quicktour is in pure html, the faqguide and aboutubuntu in docbook
[10:36] <mdke> yes
[10:38] <mdke> jsgotangco: ok i will check about-ubuntu today and email the list when I have.
[10:38] <jsgotangco> thanks
[10:38] <mdke> gtg now
[10:39] <Burgundavia> mdke, thanks for dropping by
[10:39] <jsgotangco> see you
[10:39] <mdke> sorry I haven't helped much lately
[10:44] <Burgundavia> rob^, ping
[10:49] <Madpilot> OK, quicktour.html.diff is made, off to the list in a minute
[10:50] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, how far are we away from strict?
[10:51] <jsgotangco> ok anyone here can patch? i will be offline in a while
[10:51] <jsgotangco> need to test in a different partition
[10:51] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I can patch
[10:51] <jsgotangco> ok
[10:51] <jsgotangco> i thought you were in a different machine
[10:51] <jsgotangco> see you guys later
[10:52] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: we're ONE validation error away from Strict
[10:52] <Madpilot> but it's to do with <ul> (unordered lists) and I haven't a clue why it's not valid
[10:53] <Burgundavia> hmm
[10:53] <Madpilot> and neither does google, at least with what I've had a quick look for.
[10:53] <Burgundavia> I can just drop the ul
[10:53] <Burgundavia> what about ol?
[10:54] <Madpilot> not sure if OL works either
[10:54] <Madpilot> just a minute, I'll check
[10:54] <Burgundavia> UL should work
[10:55] <Madpilot> I know UL should work, I don't know why it doesn't...
[10:59] <Madpilot> crap... I just screwed up my local copy of quickguide.html - how do I force svn to pull down a repo copy for me?
[11:00] <Burgundavia> just delete it and then svn up
[11:01] <Madpilot> thanks
[11:07] <Madpilot> OK, diff sent to the list
[11:14] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, committed
[11:14] <Madpilot> thanks
[11:14] <Madpilot> got some ppl from #html looking at the damn thing now, to see why it's not validating Strict...
[11:15] <Burgundavia> cool
[11:15] <Burgundavia> I am headed to bed, if you can figure out why, send another patch to the list
[11:17] <Madpilot> Got it sorted, new diff on it's way in a few minutes. good night
[11:17] <Burgundavia> night
[11:17] <Burgundavia> I will commit it in the morning
[11:27] <Madpilot> quicktour diff sent to the list.
[11:27] <Madpilot> good night, all
[01:06] <mdke> anyone around?
[01:06] <jsgotangco> hey
[01:07] <mdke> hiya
[01:07] <mdke> corey seemed to say there was an error with my about-ubuntu file?
[01:07] <jsgotangco> whats up im just updating X
[01:07] <jsgotangco> hmm i haven't checked im not in my hoary partition
[01:08] <mdke> ah cool, can you have a look later and commit it if it's ok?
[01:08] <jsgotangco> (2 huge X updates grrrr)
[01:08] <mdke> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-September/003421.html
[01:08] <mdke> hmm
[01:08] <mdke> new emails from my webmail don't thread properly
[01:08] <mdke> at least with mailman
[01:10] <mdke> jsgotangco: ok i'm off again, good luck with X and i'd like it if you can check out my about-ubuntu.xml later if you have time
[01:10] <jsgotangco> sure
[01:10] <mdke> thanks :)
[01:10] <jsgotangco> i just couldn't get out of this X mess right now
[01:12] <mdke> heh
[01:12] <mdke> see ya later
[02:01] <jsgotangco> aha
[02:02] <ajmitch> morning jeff
[02:02] <jbailey> g'devening Andrew.
[02:02] <jbailey> Or is it properly morning there now, too? =)
[02:02] <ajmitch> morning here now :)
[02:02] <jsgotangco> its already night here
[02:02] <ajmitch> well, after midnight anyway
[02:05] <jsgotangco> jbailey, completely awake?
[02:05] <jbailey> jsgotangco: As awake as I'm going to get in the next hour, anyway. =)
[02:05] <jsgotangco> ok i only have one question
[02:05] <jsgotangco> make that 2
[02:06] <jsgotangco> are you going to do the scrollkeeper bit?
[02:06] <jsgotangco> are we still doing release notes?
[02:06] <jsgotangco> ah! another one
[02:06] <jsgotangco> did you ask mdz to drop the freeze?
[02:07] <jbailey> 1) Yes, after the preview freeze I think.
[02:07] <jbailey> Although I'll look for it today.
[02:07] <jbailey> 2) YEs.  wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyReleaseNotes
[02:07] <jbailey> 3) Not yet, thanks for the reminder.
[02:07] <jsgotangco> i tried it last night, it was a pain (you're right the svn isn't package friendly)
[02:08] <jsgotangco> i had to move everyone one bit entitiy that was pointed if i do it in xml
[02:08] <jbailey> I resent the request for getting write permissions yesterday morning, so hopefully I'll get access soon.
[02:09] <jbailey> Well, I wonder if I could get permission to do the scrollkeeper bit for preview.  It's tight, but it would be really nice.
[02:09] <ajmitch> isn't preview in a day or two?
[02:10] <jsgotangco> yeah
[02:10] <jsgotangco> probably less than 24 hours from now
[02:10] <ajmitch> does the scrollkeeper bit affect only 1 package?
[02:11] <jsgotangco> well it updates the whole sk db
[02:12] <ajmitch> I'm just wondering if it has even a slim chance of breaking something :)
[02:12] <jsgotangco> barely
[02:13] <ajmitch> hopefully mdz will consider then
[02:13] <jbailey> jsgotangco: Do you know what needs to be done?
[02:14] <jsgotangco> sure i sat for an hour last night thinking about it and dug through hoary...its a pain with xml but it might be easier with html i will try later
[02:14] <jsgotangco> the omf file should be easy
[02:14] <jbailey> Cool.
[02:14] <jbailey> Docbook and scrollkeeper are new beasts to me.
[02:14] <jsgotangco> scrollkeeper is terribly old but its what we have since we use yelp
[02:40] <jsgotangco> gahhh i gotta rest first
[02:40] <jsgotangco> br
[02:40] <jsgotangco> b
[05:13] <mdke> ahh broadband is back
[05:31] <jbailey> Is the docteam meeting today?
[05:31] <mdke> not that I know of
[05:31] <mdke> i didn't see anything on the mailing list
[05:32] <mdke> although in the topic for #-meeting there is something posted for the 9th
[05:43] <jbailey> Ah the 9th, okay.
[05:43] <jbailey> I remember that it was an odd number. =)
[08:33] <mdke> hey Burgundavia 
[08:35] <Burgundavia> salut mdke 
[08:35] <mdke> :)
[08:35] <mdke> my broadband arrived a few days early
[08:36] <mdke> so i'll sort out that about-ubuntu patch asap
[08:36] <Burgundavia> mdke, ok, cheers
[08:36] <Burgundavia> I suspect that it got infected with windows line ends
[08:37] <mdke> argh
[08:37] <mdke> in that case I'll just do it again
[08:37] <Burgundavia> that is the only thing I can think of that would replace the entire document
[08:38] <mdke> ok i'll check it out
[09:25] <Madpilot> nice to see 6 or 8 new printers in the HardwarePrinter page since Daniel's blog post last night...
[09:30] <mdke> evening froud 
[09:30] <froud> evening
[09:30] <froud> anyone feeling board?
[09:31] <mdke> hmm
[09:31] <mdke> that was appalling
[09:32] <mdke> froud, we need to think about how to generate po files soon
[09:32] <mdke> maybe in the meeting on friday?
[09:32] <froud> http://icdl.tsf.org.za/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=43 is up for grabs if anyone wants some fun
[09:32] <Madpilot> for po files, the QuickTour is now XHTML Strict - yes, I figured it out, it's now valid Strict...
[09:32] <mdke> nice one Madpilot 
[09:33] <froud> yep yep if you put XHTML in SVN only do XHTML strict
[09:33] <Madpilot> thanks - turns out it was one stupid nesting-tags error on my part - an error that's only an error using Strict
[09:34] <Madpilot> froud: messy job?
[09:34] <froud> Madpilot: better 2 wrk in xml and trnsfrm 2 xhtml
[09:34] <froud> then CSS
[09:34] <froud> but no time for me now
[09:34] <froud> must go
[09:35] <froud> later
[09:35] <Madpilot> froud: yeah, but I know XHTML fairly well, haven't worked with XML yet.
[09:35] <mdke> be at the meeting?
[09:35] <froud> when
[09:35] <mdke> 9th 14 UTC
[09:35] <froud> 2 days
[09:35] <froud> bugga
[09:35] <froud> shal try 
[09:35] <mdke> cool
[09:36] <froud> got to much a cooking
[09:36] <mdke> otherwise I'll mail you about it
[09:36] <froud> scared to commit on ubuntu-docs
[09:36] <froud> will help if I can
[09:37] <mdke> ?
[09:37] <froud> but higher priorities must come first and don't want to disappoint
[09:37] <froud> clony 4 looks good
[09:38] <froud> tought install was 2 b graphic
[09:38] <mdke> oh i see what you mean
[09:38] <froud> but better now with new prgrss bar
[09:39] <froud> what translated from b4
[09:39] <froud> and what need doing now
[09:39] <froud> faq is new
[09:39] <froud> quick guide needs merge
[09:40] <froud> what else
[09:40] <mdke> quickguide is not being released
[09:41] <mdke> just about-ubuntu, faq, releasenotes, quicktour (html) afaics
[09:41] <froud> is not qtour = new qguide?
[09:42] <mdke> its essentially a totally different thing
[09:42] <froud> abt ubuntu is translated into many languages
[09:42] <mdke> froud, sure but it has changed since last release, so new po files need to be generated
[09:42] <Madpilot> Quick Tour is a brochure, more or less. QGuide was more in-depth, wasn't it?
[09:43] <froud> should get make pot.new then msgmerge pot.old
[09:43] <froud> then take result to rosetta
[09:43] <froud> diff will be auto displayed, no?
[09:44] <mdke> no idea
[09:45] <froud> How much in abtubuntu is new
[09:45] <mdke> just minor changes
[09:45] <froud> then we need to get all translations thereof into svn
[09:46] <mdke> don't think so, we should be able to arrange the merges in rosetta i think
[09:46] <froud> then make pot.new and msgmerge with pot.old
[09:46] <froud> the result should go back to rose and they will see the diff, I think that was how it worked
[09:47] <mdke> i'll investigate with the rosetta people
[09:47] <mdke> gtg now