=== thoreauputic [n=prospero@wolax7-033.dialup.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@200-158-81-92.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jalrnc [n=joao@ip68-0-220-224.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.7.130.34] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:48] question: will the quicktour have a .po file for translation? I couldn't find it in the svn repo === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.7.130.34] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.7.130.34] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvolt1ge [n=Jono@196.7.130.34] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:03] jalrnc: eventually I guess it will, not sure if that'll make Breezy or not though [01:06] so it may not be possible to include any translations at all with breezy? [01:09] I really don't know [01:10] I"m slightly involved in the Quick Guide - I did a lot of the current XHTML/CSS layout - but I don't know how the translation process works === Seveas [n=seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.7.130.34] has joined #ubuntu-doc === avanspronsen [n=andrewv@London-HSE-ppp3543971.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:40] Madpilot: thanks [02:41] no problem. if you are able to help with translation, i'm sure the doc-team will be glad to hear from you! [02:45] "Of course, besides the network option, [Mozilla] can also be used as a standalone HTML viewer." [02:45] Who *writes* this stuff [02:45] what's that from? [02:46] The description of Mozilla in gnome-app-install [02:47] Madpilot: I'm the PT LoCoTeam leader, we've been involved in the translations and would love to help further :) I'll send an email to the doc list asking about the quicktour doc [02:47] mpt: is it too late to just get rid of that entire line? [02:47] jalrnc: PT = Portugal, right? [02:48] Madpilot: Oh, probably [02:48] mpt: too bad. I don't think it would be missed... bugreport it for breezy+1? [02:49] Madpilot: Yeah, I guess ... But it's nothing special [02:49] There's text all over the place like that [02:49] the joys of Linux documentation... ;) [02:50] yeah, but not just the documentation [02:50] e.g. the main window of g-a-i itself: "This program allows you to add or remove programs with a click of a button." <-- that's not telling me anything, amigo [02:50] my favourite is gFTP, which appears to be *entirely* undocumented beyond a fairly short man page, even on the gFTP website... [02:52] Another example: the Boot Manager Settings window has a spinbox: "Seconds to wait before loading default kernel or OS". It doesn't mention what is the point of waiting at all. [02:52] Madpilot: yep [02:54] ooh, ooh, here's a good one: "You seem to be running gnome-pilot for the first time." === mpt hasn't had enough sleep in the past couple of days === Madpilot has an MS Clippie flashback on seeing the words "You seem to be...".... ahhh! [02:56] There needs to be ... I dunno, some sort of culture of brevity established [02:57] .whois mpt [02:57] Does this sentence help Aunt Tillie? Does it help cousin Arlo? If not, cut it out. [02:57] ... sorry... [02:57] "culture of brevity" - I like that phrase [02:57] Same for words, and for syllables. [02:58] but... but extraneous polysyllables are *cool*! :) [02:59] extraneous polysyllabilac verbiage - even cooler [03:01] yeah [03:01] ... except that I can't spell today... === jalrnc [n=joao@ip68-0-220-224.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [03:02] Symptoms of extraneous polysyllabic verbiage: "enable", "allow", "In this window you can", "the user" [03:03] yup [03:03] jdub: awake? [03:04] yo [03:04] can't stay long [03:04] jdub: Ok, well, in three sentences or fewer: how did gnome start caring about usability? [03:04] What happened? [03:04] holy crap dude [03:05] I remember there was a lot of use of the word "crack" [03:05] which seemed to be a kind of bludgeon [03:05] but there must have been more to it than that [03:05] a lot of deep introspective thought, a lot of agitating on behalf of particular people, a lot of consideration of our target market, a lot of consideration about the receipe we needed for success, etc. [03:06] understanding that freedom is not just for geeks [03:06] lots of hard work, then [03:06] yes, once the ideas were there, a fuckload of hard work to prove it [03:07] anyway, have to run [03:07] ok, thanks [03:07] i'm sure there's a longer discussion in this :) [03:08] yeah [03:08] about going to the next level [03:08] (at the risk of clicheing myself) [03:09] did you watch my guadec talk video? [03:09] no, I've been meaning to watch the guadec videos for ... some time now [03:10] I only got halfway through the selinux one === mpt remembers they had "6uadec" in the url, and finds them again [03:11] oh, these are files I can't watch on my Mac [03:11] because Ogg for Mac has been broken for the past ~6 months [03:11] bonus [03:12] mine has some of this stuff in it [03:14] Apple makes QuickTime for Windows, because it's in their interests to make sure people can watch QuickTime formats [03:14] Microsoft makes Windows Media Player for Mac OS, because it's in their interests to make sure people can watch Windows Media formats [03:15] Linux distributors should club together to hire someone to maintain Ogg plugins for Windows and OS X, for the same reason === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:26] hey all [03:28] hi [03:32] hi jsgotangco [03:34] hey === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.7.130.34] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:23] Burgundavia, ping? === jeffsch [n=jeffsch@fatwire-203-101.uniserve.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:04] hey jeffsch === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.7.130.34] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:06] jsgotangco: hey [05:07] jeffsch, i was studying our svn folder structre last night, its so unfriendly for packaging === thoreauputic [n=prospero@wolax6-194.dialup.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:09] well, then, i guess i'm glad i don't know how to do packaging :) [05:09] we got lots of work to do after breezy [05:09] what the package did back then was re-edit the doc just to fit in [05:09] and copy a lot of the common/libs stuff for every doc [05:10] hmmm... i didn't know that [05:10] if you look at /usr/share/gnome/help/ you'll see every ubuntu doc has its own copy of common and libs [05:11] so from our working copy we refer to ./../../foo [05:11] but in the package it is changed to just ./ [05:12] it took me an hour to figure out what was the problem till i took a peek into the old docs that were installed [05:12] i think part of the problem back then was that the xslt was not dealing with the paths properly [05:12] ideally, the working copy should mimic the packaging [05:12] but that means every entry has its own common and libs which isnt really a good idea [05:12] the "strip path" template in the nwalsh xslt is broken in version 1.66 [05:13] for someone who is good at packaging it might be trivial, but it took me a while to figure it out [05:14] (the scrollkeeper part was easy btw) [05:15] will you have to do the same thing again, that is, give each doc its own common and libs? [05:15] if i was only doing one doc, yes [05:15] but it would be impractical with our workflow [05:15] we'll have a lot of global.ents [05:16] for starters [05:16] we only have two for breezy anyway, right? [05:16] right [05:16] its also possible if we put our entities in a separate path [05:17] so that all ubuntu-docs will point there instead of having their own [05:17] it would mimic our working copy [05:18] wait a minute... we are shipping html, right? If so, what do we need global.ent for? [05:18] we only need to mimic the build directory [05:18] right we actually have no need for it for breezy [05:18] considering yelp is slower than ever, html was a good choice === rob^ [n=rob@pdpc/supporter/student/rob-ubuntu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:32] hey rob^ [05:34] rob^: did you ever use esvn? [05:34] if you did, and if you have any backups of your old machine, you can recover you svn password from it [05:35] esvn stores the svn password in the clear, in the file esvnrc [05:37] hmm i didnt know that [05:37] heh [05:37] hmmm this bug filed is upstream === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.7.130.34] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.7.130.34] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:15] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsPrinters <-- added a plea for more data from users, and a link to linuxprinting.org [06:17] I wonder if it is worth sending an email to the mailing list. [06:17] about? === maxskew [n=maxskew3@cpe-204-210-200-203.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:18] the printers and asking for data points from users === robitaille should probably add his own printer in there. [06:18] might be worth it - look how many community laptops are in the laptop project now [06:19] exactly. People are always eager to help. [06:19] but often they don't know where to start. [06:21] I think I'll bother Burgundavia to blog it; lots of people seem to follow planet.ubuntu [06:22] I can do it. I haven't blogged in a while on planet. [06:22] cool [06:23] if we start getting lots of printers, a bit more organization might be in order [06:23] seperate tables by manufacturer, I think [06:23] otherwise it gets to be this huge unreadable monster table... [06:25] hummm... is the rendering that worse with large big table vs a bunch of smaller ones? [06:26] I find that it just gets harder to pick info out of a longer table, even one as well-designed as the Printer table already is [06:26] you keep scrolling down... and scrolling down... and scrolling down... [06:27] but I'm afraid users who come there with a printer from a strange manufacturer will not know where to put it if the table doesn't exist [06:27] good point [06:27] there's a LOT of printerst though [06:27] hundreds and hundreds [06:28] different model numbers for the same thing in different countries [06:28] etc etc [06:28] and we have no idea when these things were tested. For what we know, most of them may have been done with Warty. Maybe we need a column with the Ubuntu version in there [06:28] looking thru linuxprinting.org's database proves that [06:28] robitaille: there is a column for "last updated" [06:30] darn small screen. I didn't even see it on the right of my screen :) [06:31] still, it shouldn't be a date, but an Ubuntu version. A date is somewhat useless [06:31] heh. couldn't live without my 19"... [06:32] perhaps an extra column for "Ubuntu Version" outside the "Last Updated" one? [06:32] I'm on the 14in laptop right now.... [06:32] yes; that sounds good [06:33] OK, I'll add it now. === maxskew [n=maxskew3@cpe-204-210-200-203.neo.res.rr.com] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] [06:33] I would put them on the left of the comment column...but that's a lot more work to move stuff around [06:33] easier to add it to the outside of the table than somewhere in the middle of the thing... [06:33] exactly. it's a bit too late know. [06:34] s/know/now [06:34] yeah [06:34] tables are messy at the best of times. tables in Moin markup... well... [06:35] hmmm... actually, I'll add it to the left of Comments, it's all a matter of pasting anyway [06:37] cupsys-driver-gimpprint is now in main, not in universe. so quite a few of these report haven't been touched since Warty [06:38] and it seems cupsys-driver-gimpprint is now installed by default in Breezy. interesting [06:40] I should have taken some notes when I was isntalling this printer in Hoary last month. I can't remember what I had to install and what was already loaded... [06:46] OK, "Ubuntu Version" column added [07:16] printers? [07:16] Printer manufacturers are dumb in their model naming conventions as well [07:21] not much dumber than the rest of the computer industry... [07:23] a few weeks ago, i actually received a telegraph message [07:23] heh [07:23] a what? cool! [07:23] some parts of the my country still rely on it === BeerDump [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:24] did you get to decipher the Morse Code yourself, too? ;) [07:24] no [07:24] i just received the paper [07:24] heh [07:25] but there is already a plan by the government to shut down the telegraph bureau [07:25] ... _ _ _ ... _ _ _ ... _ _ _ ... _ _ _ ... [07:25] haha [07:26] if I remember my Morse, that should have been "SOS" in Morse... [07:26] wonder if ships still has this thing [07:27] what do submarines use? [07:27] ah sonar righ [07:27] t [07:27] subs use ULF - Ultra Long Wave - really, really slow, but it can penetrate water better than normal radio [07:28] similar to what dolphins and whales use i guess? [07:29] they really do use sonar/sound to talk - so do subs, but when subs need to use radio they can do ULF without surfacing [07:30] what do planes use anyway [07:30] VHF mostly [07:30] it's line of sight only [07:30] ahhh [07:30] HF for non-LOS stuff, like in isolated regions [07:31] getting my pilot's license has filled me with communications trivia... ;) [07:31] i thought planes have this frequency hiway to avoid colliding with each other [07:31] planes mostly don't collide with each other because it's a big sky, and because pilots don't like hitting things [07:32] ok so the air traffic controller is only useful for landing and take off? [07:32] while on the air, you're mostly on your own? [07:32] it depends where the air is, really. [07:32] even a lot of airports have no air traffic control [07:32] scary [07:33] not really [07:33] and there's lots of airspace (at least in Canada) where you don't even need a radio to fly [07:33] most highways dont' have .. highway control [07:33] there's more air than there is road [07:33] lots more air. plus pilots are smarter than drivers - or at least better trained! [07:33] true i was just wondering how commercial airlines do it though if that's the case [07:33] the big jets are talking to somebody all the time, more or less [07:34] big airports are strictly timed [07:34] and managed [07:35] at any big airport, you're going to be on radar & radio from a long way out, especially if you're an airliner [07:36] how about those small planes (cessna, whatever) [07:36] that's what I fly [07:36] they're fun [07:36] you bought one? [07:36] and depending on the airspace, you don't have to talk to anyone. [07:37] hah. no, I rent. even a used plane is expensive [07:37] i would imagine, it probably uses jet fuel too [07:37] no, just high-octane gas. 100 octane (where most car gas is ~80-90 octane) [07:38] that sounds fun [07:39] flying small planes is great. [07:39] I took an 11 year old boy up last Sunday - the son of a co-worker - it was his first time in a small plane. I think he's hooked [07:39] can you actually learn from a sim? [07:39] not really. [07:39] the flight sims just aren't the same [07:39] ive seen some sims and they look complicated [07:40] well yeah even with force feedback technology [07:40] Oh, they're complex, but they're still not much like the real thing [07:40] even with force feedback - which is pretty crap - there's far more input in the real thing for a sim to really compare [07:41] plus sims encourage too much looking at the instrument panel, while in regular real flying, you need to have your eyes outside the cockpit more than in... === ajmitch wonders when the ubuntu docs are going to be translated into morse by Madpilot :) [07:42] ajmitch: I'm not quite that mad a pilot... ;) [07:42] you could run them through a script anyway :) [07:42] I'm sure somewhere on the net there's an English-Morse translator already set up [07:42] ajmitch, jsgotangco you have any experience with pulling PO's out of html? [07:43] no, I don't [07:43] Madpilot, but in big planes like a jumbo jet, you always refer to the instrument panel [07:43] actually, I think I've got a Morse TTF font somewhere around... [07:43] Burgundavia, nope sorry [07:43] i couldn't answer the email [07:43] I just responded [07:43] jsgotangco: mostly, but even there, the traffic (other planes) are outside the cockpit... [07:46] i guess autopilot is overrated =) [07:47] jsgotangco: haven't flown a plane with one yet, myself (but the biggest thing I've ever flown only has four seats, so...) [07:54] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IssuesAsNoviceUbuntuUser <-- noticed this in RecentChanges - seems more like a forum post than wiki material? [08:05] finally added my printer (z53) to the wiki printer page. Time to blog about it to try to get people to fill up the blanks [08:06] excellent [08:09] robitaille: not comment? other ppl seem to have trouble with their Lexmark's [08:10] my lexmark was dying before I switched to Linux, so it never did work right, but I didn't try very hard with it... [08:10] Lexmark is the dumbest of them all [08:10] expensive ink, too [08:10] we actually have a huge cottage industry of ink refills targetted to lexmark [08:11] I believe it... [08:11] its actually dumb because one of the biggest lexmark factories are located down south here [08:11] no Linux support from Lexmark, either... [08:12] its a pain, they may be the cheapest one here but they're the hardest to use [08:13] very few people buy lexmark here really, but the computer resellers give them away so... [08:13] Madpilot, that's not true, my z53 came with Mandrake drivers. [08:13] here, buying new ink for a Lexmark costs nearly as much as buying the printer in the first place! (cheap printer, expensive ink...) [08:13] robitaille: really? that's cool. [08:14] but ink is expensive; but I got the printer for free, and I very rarely print anyway [08:14] I should scrounge up my old Z32 CD, and see what's actually on it now [08:14] I remember that they even had the little penguin logo on the box beside the Windows and Mac logos [08:15] nothing like that on mine :( [08:16] http://www.lexmark.com/US/products/tech_specs/0,1231,MTg0NHwx,00.html for the complete list of linux supported [08:16] but I stil end up using gimp-print under Ubuntu since it is setup by default that way [08:17] Mandrake, SuSE & Redhat - OK, better than I'd thought === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob^ [n=rob@pdpc/supporter/student/rob-ubuntu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:19] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kurdish it's a recent page. I'm a big confused why someone would cut and paste from the web; and it doesn't seem to be linked from anywhere else. [09:20] robitaille: I noticed that myself a day or two ago, not sure what the point of it was, either [09:20] have you confirmed that it's pure cut'n'paste? [09:21] http://www.cogsci.ed.ac.uk/~siamakr/Kurdish/iran-lang.html [09:22] bingo [09:22] I was just checking Wikipedia, actually [09:22] the power of a google search :) [09:22] I'll vote for deletion, it's both copyright violation & doesn't seem relevant to Ubuntu [09:23] a Kurdish-lang. Ubuntu would be cool, but we don't need a massive page on the language... [09:24] Burgundavia, hmm [09:24] oops [09:24] ? [09:24] wait let me sse it heh [09:24] stupid tab key [09:24] oh my it looks like a wikipedia entry heh [09:24] it's cut'n'paste from that 2nd URL robitaille's posted... [09:25] would we say: "Synaptics" or "Synaptic's" in: "..Synaptics/'s full usage is explained below". [09:26] err [09:26] Synaptics' [09:26] you don't use 's on a word that has s at the end [09:26] hmm, I was also thinking that could have been it [09:26] unless english AU allows it =) [09:26] man I hate english! [09:27] it's an awful language [09:27] try to learn it when it's not your native tongue :) [09:27] unforutnately everyone uses it [09:27] yeah, I have heard that its hard [09:27] robitaille: you grew up speaking French? [09:27] yeah, life is not fair, why doesn't everyone uses french? [09:27] english isn't my native language [09:28] it's my only language, really, but it's still awful! [09:28] Madpilot, yes, french is my first language. Mostly learned english after I turned 16 [09:28] i grew up learning 2 languages and 3 dialects [09:30] humm... still a bit bare :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyReleaseNotes [09:30] I can order beer politely in half a dozen European languages... ;) [09:30] robitaille, leave it as is, jbailey will be filling it up soon as well as me [09:30] jsgotangco, I know. I just saw it while cleaning up my mailbox [09:31] robitaille: just saw your printer blog post - good [09:31] for the printers, what exactly counts as "Supported" as a seperate thing for "Working"? [09:31] hmm why is spell check not working in evolution? [09:31] robitaille, did you get your ubuntu.com email? [09:32] yes...and you should have it as well. [09:32] it was turned on earlier, based on your LP address [09:32] elmo emailed me earlier that i haven't signed the CoC heh [09:32] Madpilot, supported: Ubuntu knows about your printer; work: you can get it to work, but the correct driver, or a workaround [09:33] jsgotangco, :) === jsgotangco signed that CoC ages ago before LP was even usable [09:33] robitaille: OK. just thinking of adding some actual detail to the intro blurb on that page [09:34] signed my CoC long before I became a member; I was one of the early Ubuntites [09:34] Madpilot, sounds good. [09:35] robitaille, what is your email then? [09:36] robitaille@ubuntu.com [09:36] l337 [09:36] simple, easy to remember :) [09:36] its a forwarder? [09:36] yes [09:36] it forward to your launchpad prefered email address [09:37] ahhh [09:37] which means you can't use your @ubuntu address to log in LP === jsgotangco updates his LP details [09:42] did anyone patch rob^ diff already [09:42] anyone know what "PPD" actually stands for? (linuxprinting.org does even seem to have a def'n...) [09:43] err PPD? [09:43] shouldnt it be LPD [09:43] PostScript Printer Description [09:44] robitaille: thanks [09:44] the printer files often are whatever.ppd [09:44] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostScript_Printer_Description [09:45] wikipedia never fails to amaze me nowadays [09:45] "the file used to tell Ubuntu your printer's settings" <-- decent one-line newbie-friendly summary of a PPD? [09:46] "...settings & abilities." is probably better... [09:52] hey, has anyone seen the unofficial lite ubuntu project? [09:52] yeah [09:52] is their webpage layout still broken? [09:53] yeah, there is a wiki which is much better though === mdke [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:55] hi all [09:55] hi mdke [09:55] hi [09:55] nice work on faq guide [09:55] yeah thanks [09:55] how is it going? [09:56] corey and jeffsch are doing a good job on reviewing it [09:56] I've sought of stepped back for the last week or so and let them go [09:56] cool [09:56] hey mdke [09:56] hi jsgotangco [09:56] long time no chat [09:56] doesn't help that I don't have my svn password.. [09:57] rob^: yeah i read that, elmo should be getting up soon so try him from now onwards [09:57] gtg to work in 5 minutes :( [09:57] jsgotangco: :( I've been a bit out of touch lately with only dial-up and windows [09:57] broandband still hasn't moved? [09:57] no it is taking ages [09:58] i'm drowning in a sea of webmail [09:59] how are things going? [09:59] hmmm going good [09:59] wonder if jbailey got mdz to nod on removing the freeze [10:00] removing the freeze? [10:00] yeah [10:00] in what way? [10:00] we can still write docs after preview [10:00] and finish up just in time [10:00] oh [10:00] so will translation be done after release then? [10:01] the freeze is there to enable translation to get started before release [10:01] well translators will be definitely unhappy if we extend further after the freeze [10:01] but since we only have 2 main docs, i think we're safe =) [10:02] so when will translation start? === jsgotangco shrugs [10:03] is extending the doc freeze absolutely necessary? [10:04] OK, got the intro info done (I think) on the Printer page. thoughts, anyone? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsPrinters [10:04] it would be a shame not to have translation done [10:05] if anyone can review About Ubuntu now i can make this final and have it open for translation i guess [10:06] ok [10:06] what about the other docs? [10:06] are they not going to be ready for the freeze? [10:06] mdke, QuickTour is coming along [10:06] :) [10:07] hi corey [10:07] mdke, yes, html to po is not fun, but hey [10:08] i looked into it with the ubuntuguide some months back [10:08] it was hell [10:08] it works only with strict html [10:08] (x) [10:08] we'll work something out though I'm sure [10:08] Madpilot, is the QuickTour strict html? [10:08] ouch. the QuickTour is not strict... [10:09] Madpilot, can we make it so? [10:09] I'm not sure === Burgundavia professes to be completely ignorant of html [10:10] i think strict xhtml is simply an implementation of xml [10:10] It does validate, but it's not using a Strict HTML doctype [10:10] like docbook is [10:11] it's currently XHTML 1.0 Transitional [10:11] we can't make it Strict XHTML without getting rid of the tables, I think [10:12] but let me look into the Strict XHTML def'n for a minute [10:14] jsgotangco? [10:14] hey [10:14] i was fixing my touchpad [10:14] ... for the folks in charge of markup, the W3C have some crappy, crappy webpages... [10:15] jsgotangco: so you were talking about postponing the doc freeze [10:15] mdke, i wasn't it was jbailey's idea [10:15] and we're not optimistic of mdz approving such [10:15] ok, but i was curious as to the reason [10:15] in case you didn't know, our docs broke the pre-colony 4 build [10:16] ok so the problem is with the package? [10:16] yes but it got fixed already [10:16] we don't have ubuntu-quickguide anymore but ubuntu-desktop depends on it [10:16] ok so what is the precise issue? [10:17] so stage 2 wouldn't continue [10:17] yeah i understand that [10:17]