[11:49] <pef> hi
[12:39] <allee> pef: hi
[12:39] <pef> allee: hi, are you happy with kvpnc ? :] 
[12:40] <allee> yeap!
[12:40] <allee> pef: I seen chris ITP for debian, is he really planning to upload?
[12:42] <pef> allee: is on universe for Ubuntu
[12:42] <pef> allee: I think utnubu team will work at this
[12:43] <Riddell> anyone know anything about musicbrainz?
[12:44] <Riddell> and why it isn't working
[12:45] <\sh> what is musicbrainz?
[12:47] <Riddell> music tagging thingy
[12:47] <Riddell> but it's not working and people are complaining about it
[12:47] <Riddell> and I've a feeling we may have disabled it because it needed mp3 or something
[12:47] <Riddell> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=93266
[12:53] <allee> pef: are you using chris svn repo for debian/?
[12:53] <allee> s/svn/cvs/
[12:54] <pef> allee: I've send him corrections I'me made for the Ubuntu package, so the cvs layout is now correct :)
[01:00] <allee> Riddel: wlassistant is now in alioth: http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/pkg-kde/kde-extras/?rev=0&sc=0
[01:00] <allee> it took longer due to holiday and Stan being new to pkging
[02:25] <sebas> Riddell: If you'd like to put your guidance/debian/ changes in, it's in kdesvn now, so feel free
[02:26] <Riddell> sebas: saw that, very cool
[02:26] <sebas> Ok :)
[02:26] <Riddell> sebas: waiting on it passing NEW to get into ubuntu archive, then I'll probably update to 0.4.0, then I'll put changes back
[02:29] <sebas> NEW is some kind of approval?
[02:29] <sebas> Will it be in kubuntu official, or (multi|uni)verse?
[02:30] <Riddell> sebas: NEW is what happens when you first upload a package to Debian or Ubuntu, I've already had it rejected once from NEW
[02:31] <Riddell> guidance was too generic a name, changed to kde-guidance, and the description said that it had only been tested on Mandrake
[02:31] <Riddell> then it'll go into universe
[02:31] <Riddell> and I'll have to see if it can go into main, may well be too late but I hope not
[02:32] <hunger> What' this guidance?
[02:32] <hunger> Can I help testing it?
[02:32] <Riddell> sebas: if you wanted to be extra cool you could track down larger icons for the modules
[02:33] <Riddell> hunger: hang on a sec
[02:33] <hunger> Riddell: I can not install stuff at the moment anyway:-(
[02:33] <sebas> Riddell: I'll try (I'm extra cool anyway, but still ;-))
[02:34] <Riddell> sebas: I know you 
[02:34] <Riddell> sebas: I know you are :)
[02:34] <Riddell> hunger: ah well, probably can't help in te
[02:34] <Riddell> hunger: ah well, probably can't help in testing then
[02:34] <sebas> Riddell: That "had only been tested on Mandrake" is from 0.1.0 times, that's before I stepped in.
[02:34] <hunger> Riddell: Sorry:-(
[02:34] <Riddell> hmm, enter key on this keyboard getting a bit light
[02:35] <hunger> Riddell: I don't have net access with my computers... only with this ugly windows based desktop thing.
[02:35] <hunger> Riddell: And even for that I had to claw my way through the firewall;-)
[06:53] <CWiesen> hi there
[06:53] <Riddell> hi CWiesen 
[06:53] <CWiesen> Riddell, I posted a few bug reports/wishes about KDE today, maybe some of those (patches) are interesting for Kubuntu:
[06:54] <CWiesen> what about a better fade to grey before logout and a fade-to-black before the screensaver (like GNOME / Ubuntu) has?
[06:54] <CWiesen> maybe it's already there somewhere, didn't notice it though
[06:57] <CWiesen> Just in case, the bug reports are: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=112547 http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86683
[06:57] <CWiesen> nothing personal for me (like the simple profile, heh), but just some ideas =)
[07:00] <Riddell> there are patches for fade somewhere, not sure where though
[07:00] <Riddell> feel free to hunt them down and test
[07:02] <CWiesen> yen, ones in the bug report itself, the other's linked I'll try them
[07:18] <CWiesen> oh, more stupid ideas I need to get rid of: 
[07:18] <CWiesen> mouse gestures are a nice feature. Maybe they could be more prominent in Kubuntu - they don't interfere with normal input or clutter the display. They'd just have to be enabled and maybe somehwere in the docs to actually let people know.
[07:18] <CWiesen> Second idea: there's a feature somehwere hidden in kcontrol that let's you move a window to another desktop by moving it over the edge of the screen. Seems pretty intuitive to me (just saw it some days ago...) and non disruptive to normal work.
[07:24] <allee> CWiesen: no ;) With 3.5 you can move windows in minipager.  That's better IMHO
[07:28] <CWiesen> allee oh, yeah that's right. neat one I think. 
[07:28] <CWiesen> one doesn't interrupt the other though ;) 
[07:28] <CWiesen> But I'm not sure if it's so intuitive that someone might expect to be able to "move" their windows to the next desktop, either. So maybe nobody would know about this (the feature I suggested, not the mini cli one) anyway.
[07:30] <allee> CWiesen: I claim that newbies get horrible confused (I don't bother to try with my wife I'm 100% sure) when they
[07:30] <allee> more a window and suddenly everything changes
[07:31] <allee> s/more/move/
[07:31] <allee> in the minipages you see all desktop at once.  So it's much easier to imagine what's your doing.
[07:32] <CWiesen> allee: yeah sounds likely, but there are two things to prevent this:
[07:33] <CWiesen> first you don't have to move the window just to the edge of the screen, but the position your mouse cursor is at the windeco actually has to cross the edge
[07:33] <CWiesen> still it might happen when unintendedly
[07:34] <CWiesen> but second there's an option in the same settings dialog to enable a "Desktop Name"  message id-screen when the desktop is switched during that process
[07:35] <CWiesen> I wouldn't say it's worth any trouble (if it is trouble, evaluating this and all that) though.
[07:42] <allee>  CWiesen: as I said: IMHO think the minipager way is better (and there is Ctrl-Fx). So IMHO no need for a third, hard to get for newbies method (IMHO again).
[07:43] <CWiesen> allee can see what you mean I think. Still think it's nice for those that expect it this way. just thought I'd mention it, maybe somebody liked it =)
[07:46] <CWiesen> anybody got an opinion on mouse gestures? any good to have default or too complicated for "normal users" / getting in the way?
[07:48] <allee> CWiesen: _I_ assume that newbies don't use mouse gestures by accident (I use/know about them in konqueror), so they are IMHO safe.
[07:51] <CWiesen> allee, do you think they are "good" for 'normal users' (there's no such thing actually I guess)? I know many people who love them but just as many who don't even get the concept. and these are educated computer users.
[07:59] <CWiesen> Well, I guess most users understanding and wanting them might be able to enable them just as well. Only they might not know about them - they are hidden really well. in kcontrol hidden in "KHotKeys", which even is in "Regional and Accessibility"... 
[08:51] <CWiesen> in case somebody with a complete kde buildsystem and a re-compile coming up anyway want's to check out the fade-out (screensaver) and fade-to-grey (logout patches; the screensaver one is inside the bug report: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86683 . The one for the logout effect is linked in it as well: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=112547
[09:18] <froud> Riddell: kubuntu svn, any sight?
[09:24] <allee> froud: feel free to ask on #debian-qt-kde.
[09:25] <froud> why there :-)
[09:26] <allee> All KDE application maintainer are welcome to maintain the debian/ dirs in http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/pkg-kde/kde-extras/?rev=0&sc=0
[09:26] <allee> froud: they created the pkg-kde project
[09:27] <froud> sigh, does this mean kubuntu moved upstream
[09:28] <froud> sorry I have been out of it
[09:28] <froud> so direction is needed
[09:28] <froud> is kubuntu being developed in svn.debian
[09:29] <allee> froud: no. it's just nice to have debian and kubuntu changes in same repo for easeir watch/merge and prevents duplicte work.
[09:30] <froud> c
[09:31] <froud> kubuntu-doc is currently in docteam.ubuntu.com
[09:31] <froud> but it is not getting much love there
[09:31] <froud> main problem is an overshow from ubuntu/gnome
[09:31] <froud> I wonder if a new home would help
[09:32] <froud> mv it where more ppl are interested in kubuntu
[09:33] <froud> I don't have the time to be the sole doc developer for kubuntu and since volunteers are not stepping up to chip and help, I am afraid that kubuntu-docs becomes all about me and that is not good as it is unsustainable
[09:35] <froud> Furthermore after recently engineering the FAQ Guide to be both Ubuntu and Kubuntu profiled, the Ubuntu group disregarded the kubuntu profile and removed if from the FAQ. Now I have no possability to build even a part of the FAQ for Kubuntu
[09:35] <allee> froud: mhmm, commits in pkg-kde/* are watch by quite some debian maintainers.  But I would not expect more than a comment form time to time.
[09:36] <froud> So I am not willing to build Kubuntu docs with Ubuntu as an upstream any more
[09:36] <froud> Perhaps the only way of helping Kubuntu is to move way up stream to KDE docs
[09:37] <froud> and forget about customig for Kubuntu?
[09:38] <CWiesen> might it be possible to enginneer the current Kubuntu docs to something more general (applying to all KDE) and then have a seperate part that deals with the custom parts?
[09:39] <froud> CWiesen: yes, that relates only to KDE
[09:39] <allee> froud: Well, I would refer as much as possible to already existing docs (as I promote library usage for coding) and only document kubuntu specific stuff in own docs
[09:39] <froud> That was the plan
[09:40] <froud> but ubuntu is common
[09:40] <froud> so user asks how to install java
[09:41] <froud> The answer used to be http://65.19.178.132/gnome/faqi386/C/ch03s02.html
[09:41] <froud> With customization for kubuntu
[09:41] <froud> Kynaptic instead of Synaptic etc
[09:41] <froud> basically the whole FAQ had KDE and GNOME version
[09:42] <froud> now only has GNOME version
[09:42] <allee> froud: why? Gnomers annoyed to write a synaptic/kynatics sentence?
[09:44] <froud> No, It was profiled <phrase os="kde">Kynaptic</phrase><phrase os="gnome">Synaptic</phrase> At time of parsing the profile.condition was passed to define which phrase was used
[09:45] <froud> The idea was we would ship HTML and not XML in order to support such functionality
[09:45] <froud> seems there is a problem with doing that
[09:45] <froud> reasons to do with Yelp not able to find HTML translations only XML
[09:46] <froud> So instead of fixing bug in Yelp they ripped kde profile from the FAQ Guide
[09:46] <froud> *sigh*
[09:46] <allee> froud: I hope this was due to deadline requirement (otherwise it's braindead)
[09:47] <froud> well, I don't think so
[09:47] <froud> but that is a whole arguement of its own
[09:47] <allee> froud: was there no try use XSLT to create kde'ized and gnome'ized XML files?
[09:48] <froud> well they did the work before asking me, so I did not get the chance to suggest a two stag eprocessing system
[09:48] <froud> IOW XML 2 XML
[09:48] <froud> anyway, what's done is done
[09:49] <froud> I can't make the world change, although  I do try, much to some peoples disgust
[09:49] <allee> froud: isn't there a doc repo. So one can checkout the last 'profiled version?
[09:49] <froud> so I seek a new way forward
[09:49] <froud> Yah I can, But then I miss the enhancements
[09:49] <froud> Butnow I bring it back
[09:49] <froud> lets say
[09:50] <CWiesen> i don't know enough about the whole kubuntu / ubuntu structure, but isnt' there away to get kubuntu-docs in a more "isolated" kubuntu place, so that more kubuntu interested people get to know it. those might not even look at some of the ubuntu stuff. hmm, maybe you know what i mean.
[09:50] <froud> what I am doing is forking
[09:50] <allee> froud: maybe if you have a working prototype, the reconsider merging it back?
[09:50] <froud> CWiesen: well this whole experience in the ubuntu svn is making me think you are right
[09:51] <froud> hence I am talking it through before i do something radical
[09:51] <froud> I don't want to upset ubuntu-docs
[09:51] <froud> who may take offence
[09:52] <froud> but I do think that Ubuntu/GNOME overshadows kubuntu doc effort
[09:52] <froud> People promise to do, but b=never do
[09:53] <allee> Well, if the xslt stuff makes sense (no expert) maybe a 'prominet' kubuntu devel can jump in to suggest it
[09:53] <allee> can't this be added to the agenda for one of the meetings?
[09:53] <CWiesen> this doesn't have to do with the actual problem, but when I first found out about your work I was actually surprised is was coordinated in ubuntu-doc. Maybe (and _just maybe_) real contributors to kubuntu feel something like that
[09:53] <froud> allee: it does make sense, but there is a whole education
[09:53] <froud> allee: people at ubuntu-dev see the xml as the docs
[09:54] <froud> allee: the mind shift needs to be made that the XML is a storage format
[09:54] <froud> and then a doc
[09:54] <froud> allee: if this can be understood then perhaps the profiled method can work and development of UB and KU docs can coexist on this doc
[09:55] <froud> allee: but I am not up for another debate/argument with ubuntu I have had my share of being the bad guy thanks
[09:55] <froud> :-)
[09:56] <allee> froud: very understandable.
[09:56] <froud> Oh well, if anyone has further ideas, please do talk to me. Thanks
[09:57] <allee> pity that Riddell, \sh & co are not around
[09:58] <allee> froud: don't do it.
[09:59] <froud> allee: why not?
[09:59] <allee> froud: you 'split' proposal is the easiest route for them.  And people are lazy ;)
[09:59] <CWiesen> froud: maybe it'S a better time *after you got a chance to speak with Riddell & co?
[09:59] <froud> Yah, OK
[10:01] <allee> froud: well, adding a link to the title of this -dev channel is maybe a good idea too
[10:02] <froud> allee: you lost me
[10:03] <allee> doc development needs more attention.  So point here to useful entrypage that lists: how/where to contribute to kubuntu docs
[10:06] <CWiesen> from my pov one good thing to do would be toa make doc development as accessible as possible. You know those willing to write docs might not always be the same who're well educated with development tools (among which I'll count svn and the like). If hypothetically there would be a way to "simpyl write" docs in a wiki like manner I guess (that's just me guessing again...) more people would be willing and able to do some sort of writing
[10:07] <CWiesen> I know that's oversimplyfication, but basically lowering the requirements in such things would lead to more interested writers. Though, honestly I can't tell how such a thing might happen :-/
[10:08] <allee> well, then use the wiki ;)
[10:08] <froud> CWiesen: wiki is good for somethings, but putting documentation in it is a mess and makes it hard to package and create POT files etc
[10:08] <allee> KDE upstream gladly accepts (part) of docs in 'any' format.  I doubt that this helps much
[10:08] <froud> And Lauri spends hours porting them :-)
[10:09] <froud> poor girl
[10:09] <CWiesen> not sure, wiki is just an example. what I mean is the kind of accessibility a wiki offers. everybody can handle a webbrowser, you know.
[10:09] <allee> really? There are much non xml/docbook contribs?
[10:09] <froud> What is needed is ApacheLenyaXForrestXDoco
[10:10] <allee> CWiesen: you want an WYSIWYG XML editor?
[10:11] <froud> Yah that also helps
[10:11] <CWiesen> maybe. and a way to let people know "this is a simple way to get started writing docs for kubuntu". So they get to know how their docs should look like, what's still needed and how they can start doing it (where to get such an editor and where to put the results)
[10:11] <froud> http://lnix.net/~froud was a start but still relied on Ubuntu
[10:12] <allee> anyone tried the new quanta/kdevelop merge that was proposed as the best (non-WYSIWYG) editor?
[10:12] <froud> no, not yet
[10:12] <froud> I use Oxygen XML
[10:13] <froud> allee: where is it, any suse rpms
[10:14] <froud> or is there a deb for kubuntu and I will try it 
[10:14] <froud> on my other box later
[10:14] <CWiesen> heh, very stupid and unrelated question: your SuSE, does it have a nice "fade out" effect when logging out? ^^
[10:14] <allee> froud: no idea.  I just read in http://dot.kde.org/1124997856/ about it
[10:15] <froud> Yah :-)
[10:16] <froud> allee: see kde docs rocks
[10:16] <froud> maybe it's best just to drop the notion of kubuntu-docs and go to the top where one can make a difference
[10:17] <CWiesen> well, at least one knows the people there are great. and lauri always helps even the dumbest questioners (heh, I know that...)
[10:18] <froud> Yep. Although I got a few bruses from those guys when asking questions abou setting up kubuntu docs
[10:18] <froud> :-)
[10:18] <froud> some harsh radicals there
[10:18] <froud> but at least the traction is slow and steady :-)
[10:23] <allee> froud: yeah, some even complain about debian dirs in kde svn ;)
[10:24] <froud> ha ha :-)
[10:24] <froud> that sounds normal
[10:25] <allee> froud, CWiesen: something else, if you ever hear something about KDE manpages in XML integration ping me
[10:25] <froud> I have my hands a bit full right now, but if anyone is interested, it would be swell if somebody could create a Kubuntu version of Module 2 for OpenICDL http://icdl.tsf.org.za
[10:25] <allee> a long dream of me is to use KDE translator to transalate manpages
[10:26] <froud> allee: use docbook to to create refentry pages and then transform to manpages
[10:26] <allee> afaik 99% of kde manpages are written by debian developers
[10:27] <allee> I've written already on or two refentry pages but they are not picked up from debian dirs ;)
[10:27] <froud> Here is the module http://icdl.tsf.org.za/courses/mod2/module2-all.html
[10:27] <allee> there was some talk about manpages with lauri long ago
[10:28] <allee> but I don't follow the *-doc channels
[10:28] <froud> yes I read it way back
[10:34] <froud> Hell CentOS is looking good
[10:36] <froud> dont believe distrowatch do u?
[10:37] <CWiesen> partly ;) but it's mostly pretty clear to get a first impression of a distro
[10:38] <froud> I like the way they treat community, see the home page http://www.centos.org/
[10:40] <froud> project based on http://www.centos.org/modules/news/index.php?storytopic=11
[10:41] <froud> 126 nick on irc
[10:42] <CWiesen> it's based on RHEL isnt it?
[10:42] <froud> yes
[10:42] <froud> SRPMS
[10:42] <CWiesen> yeah, heard about that
[10:42] <froud> But they look good and get alot done
[10:43] <froud> whew and how
[10:43] <CWiesen> but unless it's debian based (somehwo I settled on that after trying many many distributions) such systems have to really shine to impress me. Don't know somehow it's either debian based or kubuntu for me
[10:43] <CWiesen> oh, that should read "debian based or SuSE"
[10:44] <froud> I started with rpm based systems and then come to deb, so for me both world are fine and so in Windows
[10:45] <froud> the power of RHEL as upstream is also good
[10:46] <CWiesen> I'm somewhat excited about what might come of OpenSUSE
[10:46] <CWiesen> thought at first "oh yet another debian ripoff, after fedora", but maybe it's really cool in the end.
[10:47] <froud> Absolutely, SuSE is just light years ahead
[10:47] <\sh> what?
[10:47] <froud> SuSE gets desktop and advanced user balance right
[10:47] <\sh> suse was good in the beginning..but now it's totally unstable..from release to release
[10:48] <froud> YaST
[10:48] <froud> Love it
[10:48] <CWiesen> I think 9.3 was pretty good
[10:48] <\sh> many suse I have are really surprised when they installed hoary
[10:48] <\sh> +users even
[10:48] <froud> Have both and can say that SuSE just works more that Hoary :-)
[10:48] <CWiesen> it's jsut that sometimes it breaks faster than you can even think about isntalling something more "stable" (considering software management)
[10:48] <froud> Maybe breezy will change that
[10:49] <\sh> CWiesen: software management and plain rpm is a paradox ;)
[10:49] <CWiesen> \sh yeah, that's my point. SuSE never managet to get remotely close to apt-get or what others have like urpmi
[10:50] <froud> YaST under ncurses is way better that aptitude
[10:50] <CWiesen> it's the community that provided apt4rpm for suse
[10:50] <CWiesen> for software management I'd disagree
[10:50] <froud> and you can do more with the system than just package managment from YaST
[10:50] <\sh> CWiesen: urpmi from mandrake was an attempt to solve this issue...but apt4rpm was much better...but only used in the beginning by one distro
[10:50] <\sh> froud: that is the problem...yast is a monster...was and will ever be
[10:51] <CWiesen> \sh I heard opensuse will have apt by default now - though I doubt it's much used
[10:51] <CWiesen> there's the novell red carpet stuff as well.
[10:51] <froud> \sh: Monster convenience under ssh
[10:52] <CWiesen> froud when kubuntu has guidance I think most of what yast does will be there graphically and in a better way for kubuntu
[10:52] <\sh> red carpet was nice...(when I worked for RH we used it everywhere) but then came RHN
[10:52] <froud> \sh: an try it with Zen
[10:52] <froud> CWiesen: we hope
[10:52] <CWiesen> froud: look at this mountconfig, from what I can tell it just looks great and heavily needed
[10:53] <froud> so many permutations and tastes
[10:53] <froud> boggles my brain
[10:53] <CWiesen> yeah, that's why at some point settled on debian... at least so I thought
[10:54] <CWiesen> sometimes can't resist trying new stuff
[10:54] <CWiesen> and suse is always among it... dunno why
[10:55] <froud> Yah people talk about having an itch, my problem is I can't resist a good scratch
[10:56] <froud> But SuSE since 8.0 and so I stay, But Kubuntu on lappy since hoary
[10:57] <froud> Will it be breezy or CentOS next?
[10:57] <CWiesen> breezy. Kubuntu needs some enthusiastic people ;)
[10:58] <CWiesen> (that's you, not me)
[10:59] <CWiesen> did you try breezy? it has a really nice and solid feel to it judging from the preview that is
[10:59] <CWiesen> important parts still missing but they'll come from what I can tell
[10:59] <froud> CWiesen: I have Ubuntu and Kubuntu
[11:00] <CWiesen> kubuntu I mean of course ;) Adept for example will be really nice
[11:00] <CWiesen> a lot simpler and quicker than YaST for example
[11:00] <froud> To make a distro from volunteers you need to have stuff they want to do and can be passionate about. I think Kubuntu sometimes lacks that
[11:00] <CWiesen> always hated the time it takes to even start the beast to isntall something of the dvd
[11:01] <froud> CWiesen: difference user audience though
[11:01] <froud> IMHO
[11:01] <CWiesen> and you need the people who're competent enough to do it _right_ (which Kubuntu has I think)
[11:01] <froud> Yeah competance never lacks
[11:01] <CWiesen> froud: not so sure I feel equally adressed by suse and kubuntu
[11:02] <froud> passion, now that is hard to find and keep
[11:03] <froud> I see Ubuntu creating this cult culture to try sustain it
[11:03] <CWiesen> when it comes to desktop distributions I got enough passion to spare. just the competence is a different matter...
[11:03] <froud> But I really dont want to be an ubuntite
[11:03] <froud> But if I dont become, its like I dont belong.
[11:04] <CWiesen> hmm I'm not sure. I think there are many good things to ubuntu.
[11:04] <froud> That way of working in community is not good IMHO
[11:04] <froud> Yeah there are
[11:04] <CWiesen> what's wrong in your opinion?
[11:04] <froud> It's not so much the distro at technical level as it is about culture
[11:05] <froud> SuSE community kept me interested and passionate for a full 4 years
[11:05] <froud> Can't say I can have the same feeling bout ubuntu
[11:05] <froud> much religion
[11:05] <froud> me likes java
[11:06] <froud> live and let live
[11:06] <froud> not everyting needs to be totally free
[11:06] <froud> IHMO
[11:06] <CWiesen> well I don't care to much for the ubuntu side of things, but kubuntu (which is the same and all, i know) never gave me such a religious feeling
[11:07] <CWiesen> even the availability of kubuntu itself (with all the gnome people around) is a sign of openness imo
[11:07] <froud> No kubuntu does not have the religion :-) thankfully
[11:07] <froud> Is it
[11:07] <froud> or is it the plan to have as many distro's base don ubuntu as possible
[11:07] <froud> makes me wonder sometimes
[11:08] <froud> One cant help but think that when people call themselves the MOTU that somethingis up :-)
[11:08] <CWiesen> it was often requested. and people around here actually deliver this. I think it's a good-thing and don't see anything bad coming off of it at this time.
[11:09] <froud> Hmm yah, time will tell
[11:09] <froud> but I cant help just being a bit cynical
[11:09] <CWiesen> hehe, I think motu's a rather fun expression.
[11:10] <CWiesen> well, live and let live I'd say. We shall see soon enough ;)
[11:10] <froud> In some places in Ubuntu, it is not healthy to give a view other than that supported above
[11:10] <CWiesen> yeah I guess I wouldn'T say else, when I'd have the same experiences like you had with kubuntu-doc and all
[11:11] <froud> and I am confused about who drives ubuntu, the community or canonical :-)
[11:11] <froud> But all that aside, Kubuntu rocks, really
[11:12] <froud> and Breezy is looking good
[11:12] <froud> ha ha :-)
[11:12] <froud> feel free to /ignore me today
[11:13] <CWiesen> I wouldn't dare to ;)
[11:13] <froud> Hey later, nice chatting
[11:13] <CWiesen> yeah got to go now, too
[11:13] <CWiesen> see you
[11:24] <Tm_T> Adept seems to be interesting
[11:37] <seth_k|lappy> but ugly
[11:49] <froud> just some useful knowledge that will not interest developer types http://www.cluetrain.org