[12:05] <cogumbreiro> ok, the bug is filled: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=316527
[12:07] <cogumbreiro> so, for the time being I can use nautilus-cd-burner key, what do you guys think?
[12:16] <cogumbreiro> i'll take that as a yes :)
[12:17] <ogra> mdz / Kamion, for the liveCD you should set the boolean gconf key /apps/gnome-screensaver/lock to false in the default settings ;)
[12:23] <mdz> ogra:     gconftool-2 -t bool -s /apps/gnome-screensaver/lock false
[12:23] <mdz> ?
[12:23] <ogra> sounds ok
[12:26] <dholbach> good night everybody
[12:27] <ogra> night dholbach 
[12:27] <cogumbreiro> gnight dholbach
[12:47] <Lathiat> jbailey: about?
[12:49] <jbailey> Lathiat: Just back.
[12:52] <Lathiat> jbailey: ah nevermind, was looking at https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/1805, turns out its a bug in the package
[12:58] <jbailey> Lathiat: Cool, so I don't need to worry about it being a subtle glibc thing?
[12:58] <Lathiat> jb	yep
[12:58] <Lathiat> jbailey: they use LD_PRELOAD stuff, and __libc_connect is supposed to be the real connect, its been fixed upstream in debian
[12:58] <\sh> Mithrandir: partimage is bah
[01:00] <jbailey> Ah.
[01:01] <jbailey> "Play thou not with the internals of glibc" type of thing. =)
[01:01] <Lathiat> :)
[01:05] <lamont> \sh: all the n-f-u's are from the c++ transition... do we know that all of it's dependant libs are built?
[01:06] <\sh> lamont: all the what? 
[01:07] <lamont> not-for-us
[01:07] <lamont> \sh: gfcui in this case.
[01:07] <\sh> lamont: oh....gfccore is build long ago...
[01:07] <\sh> lamont: wasn't even on the http://cerberus.0c3.net/~adconrad/frozenapps.txt
[01:08] <lamont> \sh: dealt with, although it'll take it a bit before it builds
[01:08] <\sh> lamont: np
[01:09] <lamont> it'll realize that it needs to build it in about 30 minutes...
[01:10] <\sh> lamont: I think it is not so important...but I was missing it in the buildlogs ;)
[01:10] <\sh> lamont: thx :)
[01:13] <\sh> lamont: do u have another list of apps which are "n-f-u"s ? I can only see these one from infinitys list
[01:13] <lamont> I'd just grep the file...
[01:14] <\sh> lamont: ok...
[01:14] <lamont>  /dbbalancer_1: Not-For-Us [:] 
[01:14] <lamont> universe/libs/gfcui_2.3.1-2build1: Not-For-Us [optional:out-of-date] 
[01:14] <lamont> universe/math/oleo_1.99.16-7build1: Not-For-Us [optional:out-of-date] 
[01:14] <lamont> universe/devel/gql_1: Not-For-Us [optional:] 
[01:14] <lamont> on i386
[01:14] <lamont> well, modulo gfcui
[01:14] <\sh> lamont: ok...gql will be morgued
[01:14] <\sh> and oleo...well...I'll have to fix it, or morgue it ;)
[01:14] <jbailey> morgue it. =)
[01:14] <jbailey> =)
[01:14] <\sh> hihi
[01:15] <jbailey> \sh: Dude, I used to be the Oleo maintainer. =)
[01:15] <\sh> I transitioned the lib the day before yesterday ;)
[01:15] <\sh> jbailey: so u morgue it ;
[01:15] <lamont> jbailey: I need klibc love
[01:15] <jbailey> lamont: Yes.
[01:15] <jbailey> gimme a sec.
[01:16] <\sh> jbailey: ok...I'll put it on the list
[01:16] <\sh> lamont: modula oleo ;)
[01:16] <\sh> modulo even
[01:17] <jbailey> \sh: I mean, unless you think there's a serious population using a text-mode only spreadsheet. =)
[01:17] <jbailey> \sh: The X interface was horrible.
[01:17] <jbailey> We hacked together a GTK interface and it was so ugly, Miguel went off and wrote Gnumeric.
[01:18] <jbailey> They had talked about adding a text controller to gnumeric at one point, and we realised that noone cared. =)
[01:18] <\sh> jbailey: I don't even know that oleo exist ;) as I mentioned last time I don't know 90% of the software I touched...
[01:19] <\sh> jbailey: but if u say it's obsolete...then it's obsolete and will be burried :)
[01:20] <jbailey> \sh: Well, lemme take a look at the changelog, I guess.
[01:20] <jbailey> It was obsolete 5 years ago, I can't imagine that it's less so now.
[01:21] <\sh> jbailey: if there is a new release please let me know...
[01:22] <\sh> jbailey: it's ftbfsing 
[01:22] <jbailey> 797945 Mar 10  2001 oleo-1.99.16.tar.gz
[01:22] <jbailey> Roundfile it, dude. =)
[01:22] <\sh> k
[01:22] <jbailey> I do have to say that I have a soft spot in my heart for oleo.
[01:23] <jbailey> If *only* because there's nothing like:
[01:23] <jbailey> 1) Cleaning up after Tom Lord
[01:23] <jbailey> 2) Working on a spreadsheet
[01:23] <jbailey> To teach you *more* than you ever wanted to know about C and pointers.
[01:23] <bddebian> moi? :-)
[01:24] <jbailey> bddebian: No, dear. =)
[01:24] <bddebian> Yeah, I know it all already ;-)
[01:24] <jbailey> Excellent.
[01:24] <\sh> jbailey: thx...but I learned enough about pointers in C when I coded bloody win32
[01:24] <jbailey> I'm sure the FSF would love another Oleo maintainer. =)
[01:24] <jbailey> \sh: I tried coding in win32 C too early.  The event loop confused me, and the documentation sucked.
[01:25] <jbailey> \sh: In hindsight I get it know, but event driven programming drove me nuts. =)
[01:25] <jbailey> I couldn't figure out how to register time based events and I didn't know threads, so I kept adding a function at the beginning of my events to do processing.
[01:26] <jbailey> If you wanted it to do anything you had to hit a key or move your mouse occasionally. =)
[01:26] <maswan> jbailey: heh. I think I've seen expensive software with similar "features"
[01:26] <maswan> released software anyway
[01:27] <\sh> jbailey: hehe...well I was completly confused when I received the MS C/c++ with the MFC (1.0 at this time)...and I switched back to plain C win32
[01:39] <mdz> it was an impulse
[01:39] <mdz> why?
[01:40] <lamont> mdz: because the build-deps are b0rked for all of the SCC architectures...
[01:40] <lamont> and I was just doing my final pre-upload testing.
[01:40] <lamont> well, s/b0rked/missing completely/
[01:40] <mdz> should be a trivial merge; nothing changed in debian/ but the minors
[01:40] <lamont> mdz: mind if I fix it?
[01:40] <lamont> ah, coolness.
[01:41] <lamont> and my change is just changelog and control*
[01:41] <lamont> (and that just the Build-Dep line)
[01:43] <mdz> lamont: fine with me
[02:01] <\sh> mdz: thx for the bugs :)
[02:03] <tseng> \sh: want some more?
[02:03] <mdz> \sh: I think Mr. Stomp wanted the new version so he would have a reason to file some bugs ;-)
[02:03] <tseng> *g*
[02:05] <\sh> mdz: the first one is easy ;) audiocds only with ioslaves ;) so he needs some part of kde ;-)
[02:06] <bddebian> Audioslave?  Not bad, I like Chris Cornel
[02:07] <tseng> bddebian: i liked him 10 years ago.
[02:07] <bddebian> Yeah, I don't like Audioslave near as much as Soundgarden
[02:07] <tseng> anyway, yay for rrdtool update
[02:09] <\sh> argl...amarok is kde...so u need some parts of kde...at least kdelibs and base ,-) i should amarok depend on kdebase ,-)
[02:17] <\sh> mdz: ok with u to fix at least khelpcenter bug?
[02:18] <lamont> well. that was fun
[02:19] <mdz> \sh: sure; it's harmless enough
[02:20] <\sh> mdz: regarding the mem leak...yes it's there (was there also with 1.2.4 ;) and I think it's something in gstreamer-mad cause playing audiocds doesn't increase my mem consumption)
[02:20] <lamont> mdz: I also took the liberty of making linux-restricted-modules-2.6.12-8-sparc* be arch: sparc. :-)
[02:27] <\sh> tseng: I have enough to work on ;)
[02:33] <\sh> good night gentlemen...enough fun for today
[02:33] <ogra> night \sh 
[02:33] <\sh> cu ogra
[03:54] <sladen> ogra: the ubuntu splash has the reflection blurred which makes it look more like a refection
[03:54] <ogra> sladen, i'll try to get this in the edubuntu splash...
[03:55] <ogra> thanks for the suggestion :)
[03:56] <sladen> ogra: another thing.  see the two dots on the left hand side about 2 pixels away from each othere.  There's no way the reflection dot should be brighter and sharper than the original above it :)
[03:57] <ogra> ok, will fix that tomorrow :)
[03:59] <sladen> ogra: and the reflection needs to go 1 pixel to the left ;-)
[03:59] <ogra> thanks :)
[03:59] <jbailey> ogra: If you're touching it up,
[03:59] <sladen> ogra: if you have the pre-dithered one, I can try fixing those for you
[03:59] <jbailey> ogra: The bottom of the 'ed' letters isn't faded the same as the others.
[04:00] <lamont> removing mozilla-firefox fixed things... /me wonders if that's been captured anywhere....
[04:00] <jbailey> But hey, you saw my skills, so don't worry about what I say. =)
[04:01] <jbailey> lamont: Define 'detected'?
[04:01] <jbailey> lamont: Is it showing up in /sys at all?
[04:02] <lamont> I plug it in, no files created in /dev
[04:02] <ogra> sladen, i didnt keep the pre dithered one... i'll do a new one on ethe weekend, that was only a first try to mimic the ubuntu one... the colors arent right either...
[04:03] <ogra> (the reflection needs to be a lot darker too)
[04:03] <lamont> jbailey: here's a giggle:
[04:03] <lamont> root@rover3:/sys/bus/pcmcia/devices/1.0# grep . *
[04:03] <lamont> grep: card_id: No such device
[04:03] <lamont> grep: func_id: No such device
[04:03] <lamont> function:0x00
[04:03] <lamont> grep: manf_id: No such device
[04:03] <lamont> grep: prod_id1: No such device
[04:04] <lamont> grep: prod_id2: No such device
[04:04] <lamont> grep: prod_id3: No such device
[04:04] <lamont> grep: prod_id4: No such device
[04:14] <jdub> GOOD MORNING FREEDOM LOVERS!
[04:15] <magnon> morning, jeff
[04:15] <ogra> good night jdub :)
[04:15] <magnon> also good night :P
[04:15] <magnon> you guys will have to keep me away from all the cheap beer in montreal
[04:16] <ogra> heh
[04:16] <ogra> magnon, congrats
[04:16] <magnon> thanks.
[04:16] <magnon> it doesnt feel good atm. :P
[04:17] <ogra> magnon, get some sleep :)
[04:17] <magnon> omw
[04:17] <ogra> )
[04:17] <magnon> just had some.. issues to fix
[04:18] <bddebian> Good morning jdub 
[04:19] <jbailey> magnon: Almost all the beer is cheap in Montral.
[04:19] <jbailey> It's sold in corner stores here.
[04:19] <magnon> jbailey: the norwegian definition of "cheap" is useless in Canada
[04:20] <jbailey> magnon: True.  An expensive ring here might buy you a bag of chips.
[04:20] <magnon> where the hell did you get that bag of chips you keep mentioning?
[04:20] <jbailey> 7-11 =)
[04:21] <magnon> who ever buys chips at 7-11 :P
[04:21] <magnon> we have Bunnpris
[04:21] <magnon> tiny, cramped stores who are allowed to be open on sundays
[04:21] <jbailey> It was close to the school where debconf3 was hosted.
[04:21] <magnon> oh, at the subway station?
[04:21] <jbailey> I guess.
[04:21] <magnon> there's a Bunnpris 100m from it :p
[04:21] <jbailey> It wasn't underground.  Is it still a subway?
[04:22] <magnon> yes, it ends up underground at a point :p
[04:22] <jbailey> 'k.  Mostly making sure we're talking about the same thing.
[04:22] <magnon> hehe
[04:22] <magnon> bunnpris have normal grocery prices and are open like 8-23 every day
[04:23] <magnon> that means only 25 kr for a beer if youre there before 20.00, and 69 for a packet of cigs
[04:27] <magnon> in comparison 7-11 in denmark sells 6 beer for about 50 kr 24/7 :P
[04:35] <magnon> time to sleep off some more-expensive-than-gold beer
[04:35] <magnon> goodnight!
[04:36] <sladen> who has leet magic powers on Bugzilla to view http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7263 ?
[04:37] <bddebian> Not me
[04:46] <ogra> sladen, wow, thats intresting... i even have editusers privileges but cant view it... probably mdz can, else its something to poke kiko with
[04:47] <mdz> weird, not sure how that happened
[04:47] <mdz> it's unrestricted now
[04:56] <bddebian> OK, who knows about .desktop files darnit?
[04:56] <bmonty_laptop> bddebian: there is a wiki page on desktop files
[04:57] <bddebian> Do you know where?
[04:58] <bmonty_laptop> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniversePackageWithoutDesktopFile
[04:58] <bmonty_laptop> there are examples linked off that page
[04:58] <bddebian> gnomeappdir is what I'm looking for, I just don't know if I should fix the Makefile or copy it as you say in debian/rules
[04:59] <bddebian> bmonty_laptop: Uhm, that page is worthless :-)
[05:02] <sladen> on that subject, what's the procedure for getting edit-powers back, I've just found I can't retitle this bug
[05:03] <sladen> mdz: ta
[05:03] <mdz> sladen: HelpingWithBugs
[05:03] <bddebian> mdz: You know .desktop stuff?
[05:03] <mdz> a bit
[05:04] <bddebian> It's a simple problem.  gnucash is putting the desktop file in the wrong place.  Do I patch the Makefile(s) or just copy the file in debian/rules?
[05:05] <mdz> since it's not specific to the packaging, and should be installed in the standard place regardless of how it's installed, I'd patch it
[05:06] <bddebian> Ack, I hate patching config and/or makefiles :-)
[05:06] <bddebian> Thx though
[05:08] <mdz> sladen: just let me know that you've read it so that we're all working from the same assumptions, and I'll set editbugs
[05:08] <Lathiat> http://hwdb.ubuntu.com/buildlogs/?show=http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/v/vpnc/0.3.3-0ubuntu1/vpnc_0.3.3-0ubuntu1_20050917-0138-ia64-failed.gz
[05:08] <Lathiat> WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!
[05:08] <Lathiat> etc 
[05:14] <sladen> mdz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs could do with some guidance on the priority field---I've still failed to work out whether P1 or P5 is more important (*blushes*)
[05:15] <sladen> mdz: yes, read it and the several other linked pages (and the GNOME triage hints at the moment :)
[05:33] <phlaegel> lamont-away: those firefox xml errors can come from installing an updated package without restarting the browser
[05:40] <ugo> hi guys....i seem to be having a problem compiling open afs on hoary
[05:40] <crimsun> ugo: -> #ubuntu
[05:40] <ugo> aargh....the real men are here....!
[05:40] <ugo> :-)
[05:40] <ugo> ok...
[05:49] <fabbione> mdz: thanks for fixing madwifi
[06:03] <lamont-away> phlaegel: I could have sworn I killed all of the old browser instances off
[06:10] <jdub> holy crap
[06:10] <jdub> trilug have over 100 comments on their petition blog now
[06:14] <whiprush> we have 17.
[06:14] <zack> sweet, vpnc got updated - now it works with network-manager-vpnc. thanks, \sh_away
[06:20] <crimsun> jdub: damned straight
[06:21] <jdub> crimsun: interesting discussion about agnosticism on the mailing list
[06:21] <crimsun> jdub: heh, when we actually do discuss Linux-related stuff, it's a miracle ;)
[06:22] <crimsun> yeah, we're just zany
[06:26] <jdub> /dev/md1      ext3    187G   56G  122G  32% /
[06:26] <jdub> /dev/md0      ext3     23M  8.3M   14M  39% /boot
[06:26] <jdub> yay
[06:26] <jdub> server's back
[06:26] <jdub> back again
[06:26] <jdub> server's back
[06:26] <jdub> tell a friend
[06:30] <fabbione> jdub: tsk.. you forgot lvm on top :)
[06:31] <jdub> i dodged the bullet for now ;)
[06:31] <fabbione> chicken :P
[08:22] <mdz> fabbione: I'm not sure how it happened; 'make clean' works in that dir
[08:23] <mdz> sladen: in general, it's appropriate to leave priority alone, for the assignee and me to use
[08:24] <mdz> sladen: anyway, you have editbugs now
[08:26] <fabbione> mdz: no idea either..
[08:27] <fabbione> AMD64!
[08:45] <[Chameleon] > Is Malone for Breezy bugs?
[08:46] <[Chameleon] > I'm not clear on its purpose compared to bugzilla.ubuntu.com
[08:46] <Mithrandir> [Chameleon] : it's for universe bugs.  Bugs for main still goes to bugzilla
[08:46] <[Chameleon] > OK, thanks.
[08:49] <[Chameleon] > that should be indicated on the Participate page in the QA section.
[08:49] <[Chameleon] > http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
[09:08] <Treenaks> Any udev-people awake here?
[09:15] <[Chameleon] > I'm awake
[09:15] <[Chameleon] > though not a udev person
[09:15] <[Chameleon] > I know a tiny bit about it, but I'm not a developer of it.
[09:29] <Treenaks> well, it breaks my system :)
[09:29] <Treenaks> I think it tries to enable DMA or something on one of my IDE drives (the one which does not support DMA.. it's a CF card)
[09:30] <Treenaks> because it doesn't try once
[09:30] <Treenaks> it tries 100s of times
[09:30] <Treenaks> until other parts of the system start to suffer (another IDE bus starts getting timeouts because the kernel can't keep up)
[09:30] <[Chameleon] > bummer
[09:31] <Treenaks> yeah.. it should try once (or not at all) and leave it
[09:32] <Treenaks> had to sit in a datacentre for 1.5 hours before I figured this out though :(
[09:32] <[Chameleon] > file a bug in bugzilla please.
[09:32] <Treenaks> and I still don't know the exact bug
[09:32] <Treenaks> that's the problem
[09:32] <[Chameleon] > hmm
[09:32] <Treenaks> (and I can't really test, the machine serves websites + mail for a few friends)
[09:33] <Treenaks> but I'll try :)
[09:33] <Treenaks> (I have logs)
[09:38] <pef> hello
[09:41] <Treenaks> #15640 ! :)
[09:44] <dholbach> good morning
[09:50] <bob2> udev tries to enable dma?
[09:50] <bob2> that sounds odd
[10:00] <Treenaks> bob2: it tries to do _something_ with my /dev/hda
[10:00] <Treenaks> bob2: but it fails, retries, fails, retries, until it takes the rest of the system with it
[10:09] <stratus> mdz: thank you for fixing that linux-restricted-modules. is there something like incoming.d.o into ubuntu ? i want to test the new package asap and i see it reach the breezy-changes ML.
[10:10] <bob2> things hit the archive within about 30-odd minutes of being uploaded
[10:11] <stratus> 30 minutes? wow
[10:13] <stratus> btw, thanks bob2
[10:23] <pitti> Hi
[10:23] <dholbach> morning pitti
[10:48] <sivang> moning pitti 
[10:48] <sivang> dholbach: 
[10:49] <\sh> infinity: u awake? I have a patch for ace, if you want to test it
[10:58] <\sh> mdz: I think suggests is better for khelpcenter, then recommends, cause it has nothing to do with the functionality. (#15613)
[11:41] <[Chameleon] > sivang, pitti: I finally got around to writing up that other g-c-m bug.
[11:41] <[Chameleon] > https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15646
[11:42] <sivang> [Chameleon] : I think pitti already fixed that, have you tried a latest upgrade of breezy?
[11:42] <sivang> [Chameleon] : (it works for me now)
[11:42] <[Chameleon] > sivang: 1 sec
[11:43] <[Chameleon] > well, I'll be a monkey.
[11:43] <[Chameleon] > he sure did.
[11:43] <[Chameleon] > I'll close it.
[11:43] <[Chameleon] > fastest. bugfix. evar.
[11:44] <[Chameleon] > good thing I wear egg on my face well.
[11:44] <sivang> hehe
[11:46] <sivang> [Chameleon] : it appears that cupsys was mangeling the conffile's permissions, and now it dont' 
[11:46] <[Chameleon] > yep
[11:46] <[Chameleon] > I recall that
[11:58] <[Chameleon] > sivang: heh, your Ubuntu Membership is not complete.
[11:59] <sivang> [Chameleon] : what do you mean?
[11:59] <[Chameleon] > https://wiki.ubuntu.com//UbuntuMembers
[12:00] <sivang> [Chameleon] : maybe because i haven't uploaded a GPG key yet ;-)
[12:01] <Treenaks> sivang: do that then ;)
[12:01] <[Chameleon] > :>
[12:01] <sivang> Treenaks: yes, planning to, then I would get my u.c email finally 
[12:09] <jdub> BenC, fabbione: ping
[12:13] <fabbione> jdub: pong?
[12:13] <jdub> fabbione: hey, have you tried the latest kernel?
[12:14] <fabbione> jdub: installing it right now on my new shiny amd64
[12:14] <jdub> i just rebooted to find that /dev/input didn't exist, my ipw2200 firmware wouldn't load, and a bunch of other mess
[12:15] <jdub> no soundcards found
[12:15] <fabbione> no idea
[12:15] <fabbione> i didn't really upgrade any of the machines yet
[12:15] <fabbione> it's only installing on the new one
[12:15] <fabbione> i will give it a try tomorrow
[12:15] <jdub> ok
[12:15] <fabbione> on i386
[12:16] <crimsun> jdub: which, 2.6.12-8.13?
[12:16] <fabbione> right now i don't have (yet) spare boxes to play
[12:16] <jdub> crimsun: yeah
[12:17] <crimsun> seems to work fine on i686
[12:17] <jdub> that's what i'm running ;)
[12:17] <fabbione> jdub: what arch?
[12:17] <fabbione> ok
[12:17] <jdub> ipw2200 looks like it's trying to load the wrong file
[12:17] <jdub> (doesn't include the uname -r bit in it)
[12:17] <fabbione> jdub: that's hotplug...
[12:17] <dholbach> 2.6.12-8.13 runs nicely on my amd64
[12:18] <fabbione> ipw2200 only asks hotplug for a file
[12:18] <fabbione> passing a filename
[12:18] <fabbione> it's hotplug that does the uname -r magic
[12:18] <jdub> hrm
[12:18] <jdub> so dmesg said it can't load the firmwar
[12:19] <fabbione> jdub: check with hotplug
[12:19] <fabbione> you can enable debugging in the script
[12:19] <fabbione> and see what is called/why/and what is missing
[12:19] <fabbione> and with this
[12:19] <crimsun> jdub: cat /sys/class/firmware/timeout
[12:19] <jdub> i'm going to try again with a fresh mkinitramfs too
[12:19] <jdub> crimsun: 10
[12:20] <crimsun> jdub: please echo 100 to it and reload ipw2200
[12:20] <jdub> ok, but rebooting atm
[12:21] <jdub> (usplash is teh rawk)
[12:22] <jdub> aha!
[12:22] <jdub> new initramfs appeared to fix the lack of /dev/input
[12:23] <jdub> and everything else
[12:23] <jdub> hmm~
[12:23] <jdub> hmm!
[12:23] <jdub> jbailey: ping
[12:25] <ugo> the most recent openafs fails to compile with gcc-3.4
[12:25] <rob^> hey whats the current status of getting a graphical installer in ubuntu?
[12:26] <dholbach> i'll do some shopping
[12:26] <dholbach> be back later
[12:26] <jdub> rob^: the only likelihood of something like that appearing will be UbuntuExpress (install from livecd)
[12:26] <crimsun> ugo: 1.3.82-1?
[12:27] <rob^> jdub, do you mind if I have a play with PGI and see what it can do?
[12:27] <jdub> why would i mind? :)
[12:27] <rob^> hehe ok
[12:27] <torkel> ugo: I filed a bug about it a while ago, and also asked ogra to request a sync of 1.4rc from unstable
[12:27] <jdub> rob^: keep in mind though, it's not something we'd be interested in
[12:28] <rob^> so we don't want a graphical installer at all, or we only want a live cd?
[12:28] <torkel> ugo: https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/2157
[12:28] <rob^> (from which to install from)
[12:28] <jdub> there's not a lot of interest in doing the graphical installer on d-i work
[12:29] <jdub> and not a lot of interest in using something other than d-i for the basic installer
[12:29] <jdub> it's quick and mostly painless, so not really worth the effort
[12:29] <jdub> however
[12:29] <rob^> it might be nice at least for the partitioning phase
[12:29] <jdub> UbuntuExpress gives us a great opportunity to do a really good graphical installer, far beyond what current basic graphical installers can do
[12:30] <jdub> (because when you have the whole desktop available to you... lots of interesting things can happen)
[12:31] <torkel> ugo: upstream has released 1.4rc4, with some critical fixes, hopefully it will hit Debian unstable soon, and then I will start poking MOTUs again :-)
[12:31] <rob^> so the plan is to only have one cd that does both live and install then?
[12:31] <jdub> rob^: 
[12:31] <jdub> rob^: for mass distribution, yeah
[12:31] <jdub> rob^: but we'll have an install cd too, particularly for the server use case (and possibly even dedicated to that use case)
[12:32] <rob^> ok, makes sense, saves money too
[12:32] <rob^> and for that it only needs to be text based
[12:32] <jdub> aye
[12:33] <rob^> I might check out UbuntuExpress then :)
[12:34] <jdub> :-)
[12:34] <rob^> whats the current target release for UbuntuExpress?
[12:36] <rob^> Breezy?
[12:37] <jdub> no
[12:37] <jdub> hopefully dapper
[12:37] <jdub> didn't make it for breezy
[12:37] <rob^> ah I see its been deferred
[12:37] <jdub> (though its absence in breezy may make it less likely for dapper...)
[12:44] <jdub> somehow my laptop thinks my work maildir is 2.1T
[01:05] <sladen> crimsun/jdub: I've seen the ipw2200 firmware timeout several times too
[01:07] <ugo> thanks torkel...
[01:08] <\sh> woot? do i read #15299 correctly, that sky2 is sk98lin driver for marvell yukon2 included in 2.6.12-8.14?
[01:08] <ugo> before i leave though...how do i send these red highlighted messages to ppl
[01:08] <ugo> thanks crismun also...
[01:08] <rob^> just use thier name
[01:08] <rob^> their *
[01:08] <\sh> BenC: if this is correct...u rock man :)
[01:09] <vrln> (slightly off topic) this is not strictly a development related question, but it is at least a technical one: what does the default ubuntu initrd in Breezy contain? I am wondering if it's used for USplash or the filesystems
[01:10] <ugo> torkel: hey from your bug report you mentioned ure running 1.4RC1
[01:11] <ugo> torkel: is this on ubuntu using debian's packages...and can i replicate this...? just an overview will suffice im sure i can hack it out myself given that
[01:19] <tseng> mdz: can you please add me to ubuntu members lp group
[01:19] <terrex> the new wine packages at breezy are the same that can be found at winehq.com?
[01:23] <mdke> is there a gui that controls bluetooth devices?
[01:30] <Robot101> jdub: how do I make "awesome desktop-integrated IM and VOIP" a goal for dapper? :)
[01:31] <sivang> tseng: I'm also having troulbe with my membership - but I havn't uploaded a key yet.
[01:32] <sivang> does anybody know why apt-listchanges gives nothing when invoked on a .deb ?
[01:33] <jdub> Robot101: we'll have to write a spec :-)
[01:34] <sivang> Robot101: \sh is also itnerested in this, you might want to talk to him as well
[01:45] <\sh> Robot101: this is already planned :)
[01:45] <\sh> Robot101: http://linux.blogweb.de/archives/94-Thinking-about-the-future.html
[01:53] <Robot101> \sh: ipcf.freedesktop.org
[01:55] <\sh> Robot101: kopete + kaddressbook have something like this..but it's really crap...
[01:55] <\sh> Robot101: 1. we should concentrate on opensource protocols like xmpp
[01:56] <\sh> Robot101: 2. all applications on all desktops need to have implementations...
[01:56] <Robot101> \sh: no, kopete + kaddressbook share presence information
[01:56] <Robot101> this is sharing the entire IM/VOIP server connection over dbus
[01:56] <\sh> Robot101: but let us discuss this in #ubuntu-im ;)
[01:57] <Robot101> I'm about to catch a train, but consider me interested (we're writing this framework anyway)
[01:57] <\sh> Robot101: I would like to work with you on this spec...this is one of the goals which are not really dapper specific..but we have to start :)
[01:59] <sivang> \sh: we should start a wiki page about it probably
[02:00] <Robot101> \sh: the goals are to provide IM/VOIP/presence functionality wherever it makes sense
[02:00] <Robot101> \sh: by using IPCF in the background to do the SIP/Jabber connections
[02:01] <Robot101> \sh: then you want to make sure evolution is wired into galago, nautilus lets you send files to people, some other IM app does the chat stuff (gossip if we write it an ipcf backend?)
[02:01] <\sh> Robot101: removing MSN/ICQ stuff and all propietary things..
[02:01] <\sh> Robot101: gajim is state of art ;)
[02:01] <Robot101> not really, no...
[02:02] <Robot101> you can put whatever crack you want into the connectin managers
[02:02] <Robot101> a phone app for making calls... it's all about having the appropriate domain-specific UI for the various functionality of IM/VOIP systems
[02:02] <rob^> can the ubuntu installer resize ntfs partitions or not?
[02:03] <rob^> it doesn't work for me, but others claim it can
[02:03] <rob^> (thought I'd get the answer from the horses mouth)
[02:03] <jdub> rob^: supposedly it works very nicely (though i haven't tried it)
[02:03] <rob^> how long has it been able to?
[02:04] <\sh> Robot101: the idea is, like google talk mentioned it, to add to jabber a sip signalling :)
[02:04] <Robot101> \sh: yes, we can trivially accomodate that. you're not thinking big enough though
[02:04] <tseng> Robot101: the network IS the computer!!!
[02:04] <tseng> erm.
[02:05] <\sh> Robot101: actually, I want to have all functionality in one app...doesn't matter if you're using single apps for jabber/sip/email or using only one app like evolution to integrate all possibilties...
[02:05] <Robot101> \sh: no, that's crap. there's a reason all IM applications have completely ass UI, it's because they do a handful of totally disparate things
[02:06] <sivang> Robot101: so you're suggesting seperating GUI according to funcionality ?
[02:06] <sivang> rob^: never worked for me also
[02:07] <rob^> weard
[02:07] <Robot101> sivang: http://robot101.net/files/tmp/IPCF.png
[02:07] <Robot101> sivang: you use a phone app to make calls, an IM app to do text, nautilus to send files
[02:07] <rob^> or weird even
[02:08] <Robot101> sivang: so yes
[02:08] <Robot101> sivang: and it doesn't matter what the protocol underneath is, all the presence is reported to galago and referenced with your address book
[02:08] <Robot101> sivang: we're starting with jabber and SIP
[02:08] <\sh> Robot101: IM is more then text
[02:08] <ugo> oh so were calling the next version dapper eh....nice...
[02:08] <\sh> especially xmpp is more then only text chat...
[02:08] <Robot101> yes you need a presence app, buddy list or so
[02:09] <ugo> reminds me of dapper dan from oh brother where art thou
[02:09] <Robot101> \sh: yes, but the jabber connection manager splits apart the services and makes them available /in the right place/
[02:10] <\sh> Robot101: how do you want to incorporate xmpp video streaming? another app, or just a jabber client with support for it?
[02:10] <sivang> Robot101: nice. We achive higher trivial integration, since each app has it's "net blessed" capabilities and you don't have to fire up the IM for instance, in order to be able to send files and vice versa
[02:10] <Robot101> sivang: right :)
[02:10] <Robot101> \sh: another app or an existing one, whatever takes your fancy
[02:11] <Robot101> \sh: when I say "IM app" I mean presence and text messaging. the other functionality is in other places. the connections to eg Jabber/SIP/MSN/IRC/whatever are in dbus services available across your desktop
[02:11] <Robot101> \sh: Evolution tells you if you can IM or phone or video call someone when they e-mail you
[02:12] <Robot101> \sh: in nautilus you go right click, Send File To -> Bob, and it will use Jabber or MSN or however bob's available to send files to
[02:12] <Robot101> anyway I reallly do need to go
[02:12] <Robot101> more later
[02:12] <sivang> Robot101: also, if we have the lib, then every frontend author can use it up to make what he sees fit, and those can all coexist happily. tht would enable us to suit each user preference. I tend to like this.
[02:13] <\sh> Robot101: think about it like this: there is no need for propietary protocols anymore...so u need to implement at least some type of xmpp client which supports several JEPs and distribute via whatever to the correct apps
[02:13] <\sh> Robot101: which is an awesome goal :)
[02:14] <jdub> \sh: the idea is to integrate numerous different presence systems into one coherent interface
[02:16] <\sh> jdub: which doesn't work even for jabber transports...yahoo/aol/ms are changing there specs when they want, and you have to work after...which isn't good...so use at least one open protocol which is very well documented and has a future
[02:17] <jdub> \sh: users can use whatever they want
[02:18] <\sh> jdub: but leave this to the server .. and concentrate on one access method and protocol specification
[02:18] <jdub> that's not really the poitn
[02:18] <\sh> on client side...speak presence manager/connection manager
[02:18] <cogumbreiro> lo all
[02:18] <jdub> and it certainly doesn't satisfy user requirements (you know, make it actually work)
[02:19] <\sh> jdub: yes it is...see gaim or kopete when aol changes some things in icq/aim connections...u have to fiddle with a lot of crap 
[02:19] <jdub> \sh: that's a totally different issue
[02:22] <\sh> jdub: the presence manager/connection manager has to deal with several propietary protocols then...so something changed for some "really kewl presence and messaging protocol" you have to work on it for every change
[02:22] <sivang> \sh: how do you really plan to solve this issue? people will continue to use the prop protocols ....and we would still have to stay on front of tracking them to keep stuff not falling
[02:22] <\sh> sivang: as I said...it's a server issue...which can be solved with xmpp transports
[02:23] <jdub> \sh: via separately upgradeable plugins. but that really doesn't matter, and is not different from the current situation.
[02:23] <jdub> it's not a server issue
[02:23] <jdub> because that doesn't solve the problem for most people
[02:23] <\sh> jdub: the problem would be solved, when the companies are revealing their secrets 
[02:23] <jdub> and they're far more likely to be disconnected than every separate user
[02:23] <jdub> right, so now you're in the realms of fantasy, not problem solving :-)
[02:24] <sivang> \sh: I don't see this happening too early from now ;)
[02:24] <\sh> jdub: what are u using most of the time when you are using icq?
[02:24] <jdub> gaim
[02:24] <sivang> \sh: I use gaim
[02:24] <\sh> jdub: text chats, or the network games?
[02:25] <jdub> ?
[02:25] <\sh> jdub: I'm talking about integrating those protocols in the software...which is here on client side...and if somethings changed, most of the devs are reengineering the protocols
[02:27] <\sh> jdub: I know, I'm a bloody xmpp fanatic ;)
[02:29] <\sh> hmmm...lets see if I can get Peter on board
[02:49] <ogra> grmpf
[02:51] <jdub> ogra: nice to see gnome-screensaver in (though it's so late in the cycle!)... but sad to see your stylish lock dialogue antics go ;-)
[02:52] <ogra> jdub, i dont care about the lock dialog... :) it was clear that its an interim...
[02:52] <jdub> ;-)
[02:53] <ogra> ut gnome-screensaver has still lots of issues to solve :/ i.e. i dont like to make the screensaver preselection through packages, but the gconf key they use for a preselection list isnt working yet :/
[02:54] <jdub> boh
[02:54] <ogra> so we'll need a xscreensaver-data, xscreensaver-data-extras and a xscreensaver-gl-extras package to make sure only the ones we want to show are installed...
[02:54] <ogra> thats an ugly solution
[02:55] <jdub> not a very beautiful delta from debian either
[02:55] <ogra> worst case i even need to split rss-glx 
[02:55] <ogra> yup
[02:56] <ogra> but the preselection feature is still in planning, unlikely it will make it...
[02:56] <jdub> could do a quick hack with an ini file... :)
[02:56] <ogra> as well as setting options for single screensavers... the ones wher thats essential are out though (electricsheep for example)
[02:57] <ogra> we have a gconf key, but thats not respected it seems, i'm just juggling with the schema file
[02:59] <jbailey> jdub: pong
[03:00] <jdub> jbailey: yo!
[03:00] <jdub> jbailey: can you think of an instance in which an initramfs for an older kernel was built during kernel upgrade?
[03:01] <jdub> s/instance/possible instance/ :-)
[03:02] <jbailey> jdub: No.  The kernel passes the new release string to mkinitramfs, and it doesn't have any logic to infer it.
[03:02] <jbailey> So if there's a bug there, I don't see where it could be.
[03:04] <jbailey> jdub: Starting next week or so, other apps will start regenerating your initramfs for you, but they'll do whichever one is pointed to by your symlink.
[03:05] <jdub> am i going to russia?
[03:05] <jdub> other packages will do that in their postinst, or...?
[03:06] <jdub> was that depmod-every-module thing true, btw?
[03:06] <jbailey> Right, like usplash
[03:06] <jdub> roll on triggers!
[03:06] <jbailey> depmod-every?
[03:07] <jbailey> Oh, in load modules
[03:07] <jbailey> Rather.
[03:07] <jbailey> manual_add_module
[03:07] <jbailey> Yes, I haven't done timing comparison.  It's certainly excessive. =)
[03:07] <jdub> heh :-)
[03:08] <jbailey> atm I'm more worried that Matt has an IDE chipset that doesn't show up in lspci, doesn't have a modalias, doesn't have a specific chipset driver, but appears to still exist.
[03:08] <bddebian> Morning
[03:08] <jdub> wow
[03:08] <jdub> nice one
[03:08] <jbailey> And so I'm still trying to guess how it ought to be detected.
[03:08] <jbailey> I *think* that the installer currently just loads ide-generic always, and that the old initrd-tools' rootfs detection went 'Hey! IDE!' and just installed the needed pieces.
[03:09] <jbailey> Promise?  Is that the IDE Raid controller?
[03:10] <jbailey> I think the drivers are all in there.
[03:10] <jbailey> My hatred of the promise driver isn't big enough to cause me to leave it out. =)
[03:10] <jdub> nah, sata
[03:10] <jbailey> *sigh*
[03:10] <jbailey> That means they're growing rather than silently going out of business.
[03:10] <jdub> the chipset is one click above a chipset added in 2.6.13 ;-)
[03:11] <jbailey> The promise suckage is that it lets the OS see the underlying drives.
[03:11] <jdub> oh, i don't dabble with the raid mess
[03:11] <jbailey> So you get UUID conflicts and whatnot.
[03:11] <jdub> it's a well supported chipset family for libata though
[03:11] <jbailey> The solution that I heard about at OLS was that they're slowly teaching Linux about all of the different on-disk formats so that it will treat those like software raid and respect that.
[03:11] <jbailey> So you then have a bios that can boot software raid.
[03:12] <jdub> haha
[03:12] <jdub> rad
[03:12] <jbailey> Yeah it's cool.
[03:12] <jdub> sucks when you shift drives or controllers though ;-)
[03:12] <jbailey> Dude, if you're using hardware raid, the only read answer is DONT DO THAT. =)
[03:12] <jdub> ha ha
[03:13] <jdub> "bios taht can boot software raid"
[03:13] <jdub> :-)
[03:13] <jbailey> Mmm, hardware raid should be faster and possibly more redundant.
[03:14] <jdub> that's right
[03:14] <jbailey> It also means that you're using the better tested code path in the kernel (Just a standard driver)
[03:14] <jdub> it's more redundant
[03:14] <jdub> :-)
[03:14] <jdub> hw raid is not that much faster
[03:14] <jdub> besides, if the kernel knows what's going on, it can adapt
[03:14] <jbailey> Dude, I've spent half my life building large server farms and lights-out rooms =)
[03:14] <jbailey> redundancy *good*
[03:16] <jdub> <- has preferred software redundancy in his half life spent in DCs :-)
[03:16] <jdub> i didn't always have pointy hair :-)
[03:17] <jbailey> There's just something beautiful about being able to walk up to an HP Proliant, look at the drive with the yellow light, grab the clips, pull it out, put in the new one, and know that it didn't stress your system. =)
[03:17] <bddebian> Heh
[03:17] <jdub> these new sun boxes are interesting
[03:18] <jbailey> 'these'?
[03:18] <jdub> the latest galaxy series
[03:19] <jbailey> Ah, I haven't seen them.
[03:19] <jdub> they're nforce4 ultra based
[03:20] <jdub> they're all over the sun.com front page
[03:35] <torkel> ugo: packages for both hoary and breezy are available at: http://www.hpc2n.umu.se/staff/torkel/Ubuntu/ 
[03:36] <torkel> ugo: I will try to follow and repack the openafs packages in Debian at least until 1.4 is released
[03:40] <ugo> torkel: its ok i just compiled from source
[03:40] <torkel> ugo: that works too :-)
[03:40] <ugo> torkel: however whats a good tool to resize a reiserfs partition 
[03:40] <ugo> torkel: openafs and reiser apparently dont mix
[03:40] <sivang> meh, I've trying to cdbs-edit-patch 12_autotools from gnome-panel source package, it failes on patching just before letting me in the temp source tree, anyone idea?
[03:40] <sivang> s/I've/I'm/
[03:42] <ogra> jbailey, youre a xinerama user, right ? 
[03:42] <torkel> ugo: nope you have to use ext2 or ext3. Upstream recommends ext2, but a lot of people seems to be using ext3 without problems
[03:43] <torkel> ugo: there is a resize_reiserfs in reiserfsprogs
[04:06] <jbailey> ogra: Not at the moment.
[04:07] <jbailey> ogra: I swapped my Xinerama setup for a single widescreen monitor.
[04:07] <ogra> hmmkay
[04:07] <jbailey> ogra: I could setup Xinerama if I need to sometime later today.
[04:07] <jbailey> (I need to set that machine back up for other things anyway)
[04:07] <ogra> jbailey, let me see if i find someone whi doesnt need to set it up first :)
[04:07] <ogra> who even
[04:07] <jbailey> Sure. =)
[04:19] <Robot101> \sh: yes the XMPP client will be the jabber connection manager and distributes via IPCF to whatever is the correct app
[04:20] <Robot101> \sh: this doesn't commit us to or preclude the existence of eg an MSN or an Oscar or whatever connection manager
[04:20] <Robot101> \sh: but we're not writing one (at the moment anyway)
[04:20] <Robot101> \sh: we are writing a SIP one though, so initially we should be compatible with Google Talk :)
[04:20] <Mithrandir> ogra: I use xinerama, why?
[04:21] <ogra> Mithrandir, could you test gnome-screensaver ? 
[04:21] <Robot101> \sh: (and the SIP signalling over Jabber can be exposed to the phone app in the same way that actual SIP signalling is... it doesn't matter from the client author's perspective)
[04:21] <ogra> Mithrandir, its not complied with xinerama support it seems, i want to know if it work or not
[04:22] <WaterSevenUb> kamion, how r u? did u receive the email about that synaptic language detail?
[04:22] <hunger> Isen't there any guideline for writing start/stop scripts?!
[04:24] <hunger> most exit 0 if the binary daemon they are supposed to start is missing. Some log_fail in that case, LSB has a special exit code for that but nobody seems to be using that.
[04:24] <hunger> Some even claim success independent of whether the service was started or not:-(
[04:25] <ogra> hunger, you mean like exitcode 6 for missing config etc ? 
[04:25] <hunger> ogra: IIRC there is a exitcode for missing binary, too.
[04:25] <ogra> hunger, yup
[04:26] <ogra> hunger, but nothing uses this output yet...
[04:26] <ogra> so why bother with adding it ?
[04:26] <hunger> ogra: Is there any ubuntu document for start/stop scripts? I'd love to file bugs, but I do not know which ones are the offenders.
[04:26] <hunger> ogra: I don't.
[04:26] <hunger> ogra: But I do not care for several different behaviours in something as essential as init.d scripts.
[04:27] <ogra> afaik we have no such guide yet
[04:27] <hunger> ogra: bind9: exit 1 if named is not there, powernowd: exit 0, ect.
[04:28] <hunger> ogra: I am sure I saw something exit 106 if the binary was missing....
[04:29] <hunger> ogra: Everybody seems to be using different syntax to print informational texts (so people even seem to use log_failure for that purpose!).
[04:30] <hunger> ogra: Powernowd reports "[ ok ] ", even if the daemon failed to come up...
[04:30] <hunger> ogra: It all is a HUGE mess!
[04:30] <Treenaks> hunger: isn't it all policy-defined?
[04:30] <Treenaks> hunger: (i.e. is everyone ignoring policy?)
[04:31] <Mez> wow.
[04:31] <hunger> Treenaks: Debian has a policy which does not fit with ubuntu's LSB stuff.
[04:31] <Mez> 280Mb of upgrades in 5 Days
[04:31] <Treenaks> hunger: great!
[04:31] <hunger> Treenaks: I have not yet seen any document for this in ubuntu.
[04:31] <hunger> Treenaks: From what I can tell each developer uses whatever he sees fit.
[04:31] <tseng> whats up Mez 
[04:32] <Mez> tseng the ceiling
[04:34] <Mez> *&yawns*
[04:34] <Mez> I got 4 days off work now
[04:34] <Mez> w00t
[04:35] <hunger> How can I help fix the init.d mess?
[04:41] <CarlFK> wget is no longer installed on a server install.  is that expected or should I file a bug report?
[04:44] <jdub> CarlFK: certainly sounds like something worth reporting :-)
[04:44] <jdub> morning Znarl 
[04:44] <CarlFK> roger
[04:44] <rob^> have the latest security problems for xchat been patched against the xchat in breezy?
[04:45] <rob^> err, security problem "fixes"
[04:45] <jdub> CarlFK: so, wget is in ubuntu-standard
[04:45] <Kano> is here someone how knows dbus/hal?
[04:45] <jdub> CarlFK: which i'm sure is part of the server install
[04:45] <jdub> Kano: pitti is a good person to ask when he's around
[04:45] <jdub> Kano: but ask away, someone may be able to help (and #ubuntu for user side issues)
[04:46] <Kano> not specific to ubuntu
[04:46] <Kano> but you use it
[04:46] <Kano> and i want it 
[04:46] <Kano> i dont know what is needed to detect usb-storage devices
[04:49] <jdub> not sure i understand the question
[04:51] <Kano> well i do kanotix
[04:51] <Kano> and i try to activate udev+hal after hd install
[04:51] <Kano> but is is not working
[04:52] <Kano> maybe it is a simple thing that i am missing
[04:53] <jdub> Kano: it's not all that simple, getting them working nicely requires a lot of deep system integration work
[04:53] <Kano> well i want that it works with latest kde
[04:54] <Kano> it works basically for cd/dvd
[04:54] <Kano> but not for usb storage devices
[04:54] <Kano> usb-storage module is not loaded
[04:54] <jdub> post to the hal and utopia lists
[05:02] <Mez> fabbione: ping
[05:04] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: sorry, but it's my weekend; I probably won't look until Monday
[05:05] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, wow.. by any means!:-))) Enjoy it as much as you can :-)) 
[05:05] <Kano> bye
[05:13] <mjg59> jbailey: Any chance of a new initramfs-tools?
[05:14] <wasabi_> Ahh hah found the EVMS/LVM/MD problem!
[05:15] <wasabi_> Seems when evms makes md devices it uses dm-* notation someplace somehow...
[05:15] <wasabi_> And so lvm doesn't consider the real devices as part of a md array, and thus scans them
[05:17] <jdub> iiiinteresting
[05:17] <wasabi_> And so LVM tries to add the real devices that are raid 1'd and then comes up with a duplicate uuid error
[05:17] <wasabi_> eureka!
[05:21] <wasabi_> Yup. That's the problem. Hmm. Now how to fix that!
[05:22] <wasabi_> Guess this is LVM's fault. It should be checking for a real MD super block, not just ownership by a MD array.
[05:30] <thesaltydog> wasabi_, could this have affected also my huge hard-disk loss of performances in breezy?
[05:34] <wasabi_> no.
[05:35] <CarlFK> breezy: "E: Package libdvdcss2 has no installation candidate" - should I bug this?
[05:35] <azeem> CarlFK: which package complains?
[05:35] <CarlFK> libdvdcss2 
[05:35] <azeem> eh
[05:36] <mjr> libdvdcss is legally questionable in some jurisdictions, thus not included
[05:36] <azeem> why do you want to install it?
[05:36] <CarlFK> to read DVDs with vobcopy
[05:37] <CarlFK> libdvdread3 shows Suggested packages: libdvdcss2
[05:37] <CarlFK> but I can't find a trace of it on http://packages.ubuntu.com
[05:37] <azeem> well, one can suggest packages which are not part of the archive
[05:37] <mjr> indeed
[05:37] <thesaltydog> suggested is not mandatory
[05:37] <CarlFK> but it was in restricted/uni/multi (i think)
[05:38] <thesaltydog> I realized I have 2 different screensavers in Gnome->System->Preferences... what's happening? 
[05:38] <CarlFK> it seems odd to sugest something outside of those
[05:39] <mjr> CarlFK, IIRC, I installed mine from Marillat
[05:39] <azeem> CarlFK: anyway, this is #ubuntu stuff
[05:39] <wasabi_> /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/examples/install-css.sh
[05:39] <wasabi_> Run that script. ;)
[05:40] <CarlFK> azeem - my Q was "should I bug this?" not "help me install"
[05:40] <wasabi_> Naw, it's known about.
[05:40] <CarlFK> thats what I was looking for
[05:40] <wasabi_> decss is legally questionable. So the package may require it, but it's not going to go get it for you.
[05:41] <CarlFK> I thought that's what restricted was for
[05:41] <wasabi_> restricted stuff is not legally questionable as far as I can tell.
[05:41] <wasabi_> It's just not open source.
[05:41] <azeem> ...
[05:42] <CarlFK> got it
[05:59] <jbailey> mjg59: I still need to know why it's working on your system with that test...
[05:59] <jbailey> mjg59: I don't think it should be.
[05:59] <jbailey> At that point there's no ide-disk nor ide-generic or anything.
[05:59] <jbailey> There shouldn't be a device to resume from...
[06:00] <jbailey> mjg59: Can you try adding a panic in there, make sure the ide bits aren't loaded and do the resume by hand?
[06:01] <mjg59> jbailey: Well, the obvious thing to do is just to load the IDE driver stuff then...
[06:02] <jbailey> =(  I hate not knowing which it's working when it shouldn't be
[06:02] <mjg59> Heh.
[06:02] <jbailey> s/which/why/
[06:02] <mjg59> It's possible that it's actually falling through.
[06:02] <mjg59> Let me have a quick play now, then I need to head out
[06:02] <jbailey> Oh, and getting hit by the other resume script.
[06:03] <jbailey> That would make sense.
[06:03] <mjg59> Which would explain why it resumes, but not why USB works
[06:03] <mjg59> Oh, fucking yenta-socket
[06:04] <nathanel> the lesstif package seems to be broken and needs a recompile against current libraries; I already added a comment to #14943, but I'm not sure if I should open a new bug on lesstif directly...
[06:04] <mdz> tseng: the CC admins that group
[06:05] <mdz> \sh: I think having no help in the program is enough to justify a recommends, personally.  how much stuff does khelpcenter pull in?
[06:06] <mjg59> Why would yenta-socket have a use count of 1 when there's no modules depending on it and there's no inserted PCMCIA card?
[06:07] <Treenaks> mjg59: because it's buggy?
[06:09] <mjg59> Well, yes
[06:09] <Treenaks> otherwise, try cardctl eject
[06:10] <mjg59> I have done. That drops it from 2 to 1.
[06:14] <mdz> mjg59: stop cardmgr?
[06:14] <mjg59> mdz: Tried
[06:16] <mdz> ogra: schoolbell wants to move to universe
[06:28] <mjg59> jbailey: Weirdly, I can't actually find the machine that I did it on.
[06:29] <mjg59> jbailey: Would it be possible to just do the "obviously correct" thing and then do an upload? :) It would help to be able to track down which hibernation bugs are down to this and which ones are entirely different
[06:30] <jbailey> mjg59: 'k
[06:30] <mjg59> Right.
[06:31] <jbailey> mkinitramfs run time dropped from 13 seconds to 6 by dropping the unneeded depmod and not using gzip -9
[06:33] <mjg59> Cool
[06:34] <wasabi_> just reboot after dpkg-reconfigure?
[06:34] <mdz> jbailey: gzip -9 could be a win though
[06:35] <mdz> if we have to read fewer blocks at boot, that's a recurring savings
[06:35] <ogra> mdz, thats ok, i only need libschoolbell
[06:35] <jbailey> mdz: It's 5273286 vs 5249530
[06:35] <wasabi_> brb
[06:35] <mdz> so ~30k?
[06:35] <jbailey> Yeah 'bout that.
[06:36] <jbailey> It's mostly executables, so it doesn't seem worth it if people are noticing.
[06:36] <mdz> could be several disk seeks depending on how fragmented things are
[06:36] <mdz> disk I/O from grub is a lot slower than fancy DMA access when the system is up
[06:36] <mdz> I have a box here which takes a minute or so just to read the initrd from flash
[06:37] <jbailey> Ouch.
[06:37] <jbailey> MODULES=dep should be your friend. =)
[06:38] <mdz> oddly enough, it doesn't seem significantly worse than it did with initrd
[06:38] <mdz> subjectively; I haven't timed it
[06:38] <jbailey> They're about the same size.
[06:38] <mdz> really?
[06:38] <jbailey> So if reading it your biggest issue, then it shouldn't be
[06:39] <jbailey> Yeah.  The initramfs is always gzip'd.
[06:39] <mdz> but it contains more modules by default
[06:39] <jbailey> The initrd's were just a cramfs filesystem.
[06:39] <mdz> yes, which doesn't compress quite as well as a single gzip stream but should be darn clse
[06:39] <mdz> close
[06:40] <jbailey> -rw-r--r--   1 root root 5316608 2004-07-26 14:06 initrd.img-2.6.7-1-686
[06:40] <mdz> it compresses 32k blocks I think
[06:40] <wasabi_> jbailey, no luck
[06:40] <wasabi_> /sbin/evms_activate still missing
[06:40] <mdz> -rw-r--r--  1 root root  6549504 2005-06-29 13:12 initrd.img-2.6.12-3-k7
[06:40] <mdz> -rw-r--r--  1 root root  5129269 2005-08-27 12:29 initrd.img-2.6.12-7-k7
[06:40] <jbailey> wasabi_: Did you regenerate the initramfs after you installed the package?
[06:40] <wasabi_> I dpkg-reconfigured my kernels.
[06:41] <wasabi_> I assume that was it.
[06:41] <wasabi_> -rw-r--r--   1 root root 5110403 2005-09-17 11:34 initrd.img-2.6.12-8-k7
[06:41] <wasabi_> Last changed 6 minutes ago
[06:41] <wasabi_> So yeah.
[06:42] <jbailey> wasabi_: Can you check to make sure you have /usr/share/initramfs-tools/hooks/evms ? 
[06:42] <wasabi_> I do.
[06:42] <wasabi_> I just popped it open to read it.
[06:42] <wasabi_> found your prob
[06:42] <wasabi_> if [ ! -x /sbin/ectivate ] ; then exit 0; fio
[06:42] <wasabi_> fi
[06:42] <wasabi_> It's /sbin/evms_activate
[06:43] <jbailey> Why did it work when *I* tested it? =)
[06:43] <mdz> jbailey: MODULES=dep would be clearer as MODULES=minimal or MODULES=detect or such
[06:43] <wasabi_> Do you have a /sbin/activate? haha
[06:43] <jbailey> mdz: Yeah, it's inherited from mkinitrd
[06:43] <jbailey> wasabi_: I wonder.  I'm guessing I must.  My wife has the laptop for her meetings this weekend.
[06:43] <jbailey> Fixed in my tree, could you try it again? =)
[06:44] <wasabi_> doing so
[06:44] <wasabi_> wasabi@kyoto:~$ apt-file search /sbin/activate
[06:44] <wasabi_> lilo: sbin/activate
[06:44] <wasabi_> I don't have lilo.
[06:44] <jbailey> that would do it.  That machine has lilo instlled for testing.
[06:44] <wasabi_> brb
[06:44] <mdz> wasabi_: it's "ectivate"
[06:47] <wasabi_> success.
[06:47] <wasabi_> usplash and everything
[06:47] <harrytuttle> hi. is there a complete list of the possible preseed options for the installer?
[06:48] <Kamion> harrytuttle: no, not really
[06:48] <Kamion> the source code ;-)
[06:48] <Kamion> but most of the interesting ones should be in the installer manual
[06:49] <jbailey> wasabi_: Sweet.  Is the his plan evms, or is this the evms on lvm on md1? =)
[06:49] <harrytuttle> Kamion: ok thanks
[06:49] <wasabi_> evms on lvm on md
[06:49] <jbailey> w00h00
[06:49] <wasabi_> I'm really confused about how evms handles md though, it's really causing probs
[06:49] <wasabi_> md1 : active raid1 dm-9[2]  sdc2[1] 
[06:49] <wasabi_>       48837504 blocks [2/1]  [_U] 
[06:50] <wasabi_> See, it added dm-9 just now.
[06:50] <wasabi_> WHich is really sdb1
[06:50] <wasabi_> So now lvm won't think sdb1 is used by md, and will see the duplicate uuid
[06:50] <wasabi_> It seems like rebooting fixes it though.
[06:50] <wasabi_> I suspect it's because md redetects itself instead of being activated by evms
[06:51] <wasabi_> and md scans the real device nodes to do so
[06:51] <wasabi_> You know what rocks though, after the reboot into a new kernel....
[06:51] <wasabi_> my devices renumbered themselves.
[06:51] <wasabi_> probably some random udev or kernel change or something.
[06:51] <wasabi_> But everything still worked.
[06:52] <wasabi_> sdb used ot be sda and sdc used to be sdb
[06:52] <jbailey> The new udev (afer UVF, not for breezy) will do /dev/by-name and /dev/by-uuid as well.
[06:52] <jbailey> So hopefully we'll never have to think about what partition, etc it thinks everything is on anymore.
[06:53] <wasabi_> We don't right now with evms
[06:53] <wasabi_> evms uses uuids and stuff to mark every device.
[06:53] <wasabi_> So they are all scanned and mapped to virtual node names.
[06:53] <jbailey> True.  I have to admit evms still kinda scares me. =)
[06:53] <wasabi_> EVms itself is totally awesome.
[06:53] <wasabi_> It's the layering with other things that kinda messes around with it.
[06:53] <wasabi_> This is specifically a LVM bug that I'm having I believe.
[06:55] <jbailey> I think perhaps I wish it were just obvious what the One True Way of doing things were. =)  Even if it's evms with it's magic plug-in based mapping, that would be fine. =)
[06:56] <wasabi_> evms really is just a good interface too.
[06:56] <wasabi_> the core of it just uses md and lvm anyways.
[06:56] <wasabi_> lvm to me seems like the One True Way.
[06:57] <jbailey> Then what purpose does evms serve on top of that?
[06:57] <wasabi_> The interface.
[06:57] <wasabi_> And API.
[06:57] <jbailey> ..
[06:57] <wasabi_> It lets you manage all those systmes in an agnostic way.
[06:57] <jbailey> You mean the curses interface?
[06:57] <wasabi_> evmsgui too
[06:57] <wasabi_> And easily layer and combine those different features, and keeps them in check.
[06:57] <jbailey> Ah, I haven't met evmsgui
[06:58] <wasabi_> Like it won't let you edit a md device that's used by a lvm that's exported as ext, because ext needs to be unmounted before expanding.
[06:58] <wasabi_> It knows about all that.
[06:58] <wasabi_> However it will let you expand a lvm partition that exports xfs because xfs can handle it, and it will expand xfs for you too
[06:59] <wasabi_> in teh case of ext3 it makes you umount it, then it can expand it.
[06:59] <wasabi_> All those plugins expose generic interface and stuff like "can expand" and such, and the API builds a big list of all the pieces involved in any operation and knows if it's possible or not.
[06:59] <jbailey> So does it handle all the magic expanding and such for you?
[07:00] <wasabi_> Yup.
[07:00] <jbailey> Ah, hmm..
[07:00] <wasabi_> Mostly the plugins just call the actual cmdline programs.
[07:00] <wasabi_> Some actually use APIs.
[07:00] <wasabi_> It'd be neat to have plugins that know about hardware raid devices, and expose that info to EVMS< so one interface could be used to deal with them, too.
[07:01] <tseng> touching hardware raid from a running linux system sounds scary
[07:01] <wasabi_> That's the point of ... hardware raid.
[07:01] <wasabi_> Heh.
[07:01] <wasabi_> no downtime for common changes, etc.
[07:04] <bitmastro> hi guys, i have a question: why autocompletion is disabled by default?
[07:04] <jbailey> bitmastro: Autocompletion?
[07:04] <tseng> bash-completion
[07:04] <bitmastro> yes
[07:05] <jbailey> Ah, no idea.
[07:05] <tseng> bitmastro: the .bashrc in /etc/skel is based on debians
[07:05] <tseng> bitmastro: who dont install bash-completion by default last i checked
[07:05] <tseng> but still the check would exit gracefully
[07:05] <tseng> meh.
[07:06] <wasabi_> Wow crazy.
[07:06] <bitmastro> why don't enable it be dafualt in breezy (just a suggestion)?
[07:06] <wasabi_> md just reorganized my two MD devices.
[07:06] <wasabi_> md1 became md0 and md0 became md1, on reboot.
[07:06] <tseng> bitmastro: search for/file a bug
[07:06] <wasabi_> But I'm still here to speak about it.
[07:06] <bitmastro> ok
[07:06] <tseng> thanks.
[07:08] <jbailey> wasabi_: md likes to do that.  The mdrun script goes through some effort to preserve it.
[07:09] <jbailey> wasabi_: There's a prefered device number in the superblock of the MD device, but frequently it doesn't reflect how the system had it running before.
[07:10] <bitmastro> another question... to use my laptop (hp zv6000) fine there is a need to patch the kernel.. there are other solutions but they still lack something.. 
[07:10] <bitmastro> what should i do?
[07:10] <wasabi_> Interesting. Now that md has reordered itself, evms is confused.
[07:11] <wasabi_> LVM is fine though.
[07:11] <HWolf> bitmastro, file a bug, append the patch, describe the problem
[07:11] <wasabi_> Maybe I should just ditch evms until it's fixed and use pure lvm
[07:11] <bitmastro> thank for the help
[07:11] <bitmastro> bye :-)
[07:15] <wasabi_> What is this volatile modules mount thing?
[07:15] <jdub> wasabi_: prop drivers
[07:15] <wasabi_> Why keep them there though?
[07:16] <tseng> we relink them on boot to keep away the ATI boogey man
[07:22] <wasabi_> So how can I get xorg reconfigure to redetect everything that it can, vs just reusing existing values?
[07:30] <Chipzz> tseng: this create other problems though
[07:30] <Chipzz> +does
[07:30] <Chipzz> wrt upgrading/removing kernels
[07:30] <Chipzz> it leaves the mountpoint lingering behind
[07:31] <jc-denton> hi all
[07:31] <jc-denton> not sure if this question is allowed here :D
[07:31] <jc-denton> i'm running breezy and wondering about swsusp
[07:31] <tseng> it works great for me, but please hit bugzilla if you think something is amiss
[07:31] <tseng> im not the right guy to talk to about your kernel
[07:31] <jc-denton> i do # echo "disk" > /sys/power/state
[07:31] <jc-denton> then it suspends
[07:32] <jc-denton> but i cannot resume
[07:32] <jc-denton> i appended resume=/dev/hda3 (this is my swap parition) in grub to the kernel
[08:05] <mdz> jbailey: the 'sleep 2' in dep_add_modules doesn't seem necessary; that's only copying and not actually loading modules, no?
[08:08] <jbailey> mdz: Right, it's a pasto.  Removed.
[08:08] <mjg59> Right. On closer inspection, the trains are not useful today, so I am home again.
[08:17] <HWolf> who is the right person to ask fixing an easy bug with lirc?
[08:19] <ivoks> HWolf: launchpad.net/malone
[08:20] <HWolf> ivoks, lirc is main.
[08:20] <ivoks> pool/universe/l/lirc/lirc_0.7.0.1-1ubuntu2_i386.deb
[08:33] <ogra> jbailey, http://www.grawert.net/edubuntu/edusplash.png
[08:33] <ogra> jbailey, i think thats the one you can take :)
[08:36] <xTina> Hm. Is it on purpose that the new nvidia-glx-legacy package tries to overwrite /usr/lib/libGL.so.1 from libgl1-mesa, while at the same time depending on that package?
[08:36] <Mithrandir> it should divert it.
[08:36] <wasabi_> jbailey, it occures to me that adding evms to the init script doesn't seem like it should be done only if the evms package is installed, but if the root device is mounted on evms.
[08:36] <Mithrandir> xTina: excellent observation, that probably explains another bug I've seen.
[08:38] <infinity> The diversion hackery probably didn't get copied over from the other nvidia-glx maintainer scripts.
[08:38] <wasabi_> Or yeah, maybe if the evms package is installed. That sort of covers it anyways.
[08:38] <infinity> At a guess.
[08:38] <\sh> Mithrandir: can u please apt-get install tk8.4-dev on ravel...actually I could fix ace...with good luck and thumbs up
[08:38] <jbailey> ogra: Cool, thanks!
[08:39] <jbailey> wasabi_: In most mode, the initramfs contains anything you might need for running the system.  dep mode is the detection.  I only actually run evms_activate at boot time is the root volume starts with /dev/evms/ or if you're running lilo.
[08:39] <Mithrandir> \sh: that removes tk8.3-dev, but I guess you want that.  (done)
[08:39] <wasabi_> Ahh ok
[08:39] <\sh> Mithrandir: yepp...new build-dep somehow
[08:40] <wasabi_> That error that evms activate gives about not having a engine lock, is that worth worrying about?
[08:40] <jbailey> wasabi_: Look in /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/local-top/evms
[08:40] <wasabi_> I suspect that's just saying that it might be unsafe during the duration it takes evms_activate itself to run
[08:40] <\sh> Mithrandir: thx
[08:40] <jbailey> wasabi_: No idea.  Do you have the exact error?  I'd love to feed it through google.
[08:40] <wasabi_> No, I can reboot to find it though, basically it's saying it can't write to a lock file in /var
[08:41] <wasabi_> which makes sense, as that's teh initramfs
[08:41] <jbailey> wasabi_: My testing didn't get much furhter that "Hey it boots if I set my root to /dev/evms/lvm2/Ubuntu/root" =)
[08:41] <sladen> ogra: do you have the pre-dithered version of that?
[08:41] <wasabi_> haha
[08:41] <jbailey> wasabi_: If all it needs s a mkdir to make it happy, we should probably do that.
[08:41] <wasabi_> is the initramfs ro?
[08:41] <jbailey> Nope
[08:42] <wasabi_> Hmm. I wonder then weither it's a good idea to trick it like that then
[08:42] <wasabi_> Since when / is remounted the lock file is dead.
[08:42] <wasabi_> but I don't know if it matters, give me a sec.
[08:42] <jbailey> Right.
[08:42] <sladen> ogra: I think of Edubuntu being more red (the letter mostly is)... what about picking a slightly more reddish hue?
[08:42] <jbailey> But if evms copes, then it's fewer bugzilla reports saying that people have scary messages at startup. =)
[08:43] <jbailey> ogra: I could take sladen out back and beat him around if you'd like... =)
[08:43] <wasabi_> Okay there it is.
[08:43] <wasabi_> While an evms client app is running, it creates /var/lock/evms-engine
[08:43] <wasabi_> To prevent any other client apps from running, evms_activate is one of those.
[08:43] <wasabi_> SO it just complains about not being able to create that lock file.
[08:43] <jbailey> wasabi_: So when evms_activate is done it should remove it?
[08:43] <ogra> sladen, http://www.grawert.net/edubuntu/edusplash.xcf pre dithered and pre blurred
[08:43] <wasabi_> Yes.
[08:44] <jbailey> Sounds like a good candidate for a gratuitous mkdir -p /var/lock
[08:44] <wasabi_> Yup
[08:44] <sladen> jbailey: i was thinking about suggesting changing the evms startup message to  'Detecting evms partition (if in use)...' to try and make it less scary
[08:44] <wasabi_> Actually, no, it doesnt' remove it.
[08:44] <wasabi_> It leaves it.
[08:45] <jbailey> wasabi_: Hrm
[08:45] <wasabi_> I assume it closes it.
[08:45] <jbailey> so is it still using it?
[08:45] <wasabi_> let me check!
[08:45] <jbailey> Or is that just something to lock for fun and profit?
[08:45] <jbailey> Thanks! =)
[08:45] <wasabi_> Yeah, I think it is the former.
[08:45] <wasabi_> It should probably clean it up on it's own, but it doesn't.
[08:45] <jbailey> that it's still using it?
[08:45] <jbailey> Ah
[08:45] <jbailey> Hmmm.
[08:46] <jbailey> So do I put this in the evms script, or have this available for everyone?
[08:46] <jbailey> Everyone, I guess.
[08:46] <wasabi_> I dunno. Seems to me that the initramfs should have /var/lock
[08:46] <jbailey> ZZ
[08:46] <jbailey> feh, EWINDOW
[08:46] <wasabi_> haha
[08:48] <wasabi_> this initramfs thing is pretty cooll... all well organized
[08:49] <ogra> sladen, if you edit the logo, note that the base color used everywhere in edubuntu is yellow
[08:49] <ogra> so dont make it to red please
[08:49] <\sh> mdz: khelpcenter pulls not much in...it should be pulled in by kdemultimediaplugins ;)
[08:50] <sladen> ogra: *nod*
[08:50] <wasabi_> jbailey, in the lvm local-top script, it does some stuff with /dev/mapper/.
[08:50] <wasabi_> What exactly does that mean?
[08:50] <jbailey> That's it detecting if the start ${ROOT} begins with /dev/mapper
[08:50] <wasabi_> My root is /dev/vg0/root =)
[08:50] <jbailey> Fun string manipulation in pure posix shell! =)
[08:51] <wasabi_> lvm makes vgs directly under /dev too.
[08:51] <jbailey> Wow, I bet that doesn't give you lvm then. =)
[08:51] <wasabi_> Bet not!
[08:51] <wasabi_> I bet evms takes care of it though
[08:51] <wasabi_> In my case.
[08:51] <jbailey> Right, but if your path doesn't start with /dev/evms, then evms_activate won't get started.
[08:51] <wasabi_> Yeah.
[08:51] <wasabi_> So for normal lvm stuff, if you're using /dev/VG it won't work
[08:53] <wasabi_> It also occures to me that the possible layering isn't exactly right...
[08:53] <wasabi_> like md isn't always first. ;)
[08:53] <wasabi_> You can make md's out of lvm vols, and vica versa.
[08:54] <ogra> wasabi_, have you seen https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/1800 ? i have several complaints from edubuntu users about that
[08:54] <wasabi_> ahh. Yeah, seen that before.
[08:54] <wasabi_> I thoguth that was fixed in GCJ a long time ago.
[08:55] <ogra> hmm, does it probably clash with blackdown ? many of the edubuntu users install blackdown aside because they need the plugin for teaching stuff...
[08:55] <wasabi_> Naw.
[08:55] <wasabi_> It's just a GCJ bug.
[08:56] <wasabi_> Well, classpath more specifically.
[08:56] <ogra> ok... so i should poke doko ? 
[08:56] <wasabi_> Yeah, I just don't have eclipse set up here to mess with right now.
[08:58] <schweeb> LordHunter317: I'm not even sure I've seen him on the ubuntu chans much
[08:58] <schweeb> err
[08:58] <schweeb> wrong window
[09:01] <\sh> saturday night..time for a beer
[09:04] <ogra> \sh, prost :)
[09:04] <\sh> ogra: cheers man :) 
[09:07] <\sh> ogra: just saw the first three episodes of go-open...very interesting tv format...
[09:08] <ogra> i havent had the time yet to watch it...
[09:08] <ogra> s/havent had/didnt take/
[09:09] <\sh> ogra: well...I think I have to save some money for next year to go down to ZA and get some infos about the s. foundation and all...it looks quite interessting to help them...
[09:12] <Treenaks> \sh: and to start your biltong-importing business ;)
[09:13] <\sh> Treenaks: YES !
[09:13] <\sh> volunteering for biltong ;)
[09:16] <\sh> wasabi_: should eclipse-platform work on hoary?
[09:16] <wasabi_> No clue. I don't think I had anything in for Hoary.
[09:19] <\sh> +eclipse (3.1-0ubuntu7) breezy; urgency=low
[09:19] <\sh> +
[09:19] <\sh> +  * Removed debian/bin hackery.
[09:19] <\sh> argl
[09:19] <\sh> there is a mirror who is mirroring hoary+breezy but only have latest breezy packages
[09:24] <jbailey> mjg59: There?
[09:28] <ivoks> one silly question...
[09:29] <ivoks> in gnome print dialog, job tab is empty... that's normal?
[09:33] <phlaegel> ogra: do you work on gnome-screensaver?
[09:34] <siretart> wasabi_: ping
[09:34] <wasabi_> pong
[09:34] <siretart> wasabi_: do you intend some new uploads to eclipse for breezy?
[09:35] <wasabi_> I doubt it.
[09:35] <siretart> wasabi_: I noticed that there were some uploads to debian
[09:35] <siretart> thats why I ask
[09:40] <jbailey> mjg59: This hack doesn't work with LVM swap
[09:56] <bob2> Mez: are you involved in the extras repository?
[09:56] <Mez> bob2: sort of
[09:56] <bob2> Mez: are you aware you're illegally distributing software?
[09:56] <Mez> which software
[09:56] <bob2> acrobat
[09:56] <bob2> flash
[09:57] <bob2> java
[09:57] <bob2> w32codecs
[09:57] <Mez> dragged straihght in from marillat IIRC
[09:57] <bob2> realplayer
[09:57] <Mez> and... er.
[09:57] <bob2> that doesn't mean you're not breakign the law
[09:57] <Mez> acrobat is in breezy
[09:57] <bob2> and placing your mirrors in jeopardy
[09:58] <Mez> http://packages.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin//search_packages.pl?version=all&subword=0&exact=1&arch=any&releases=all&case=insensitive&keywords=acroread&searchon=names
[09:58] <Mez> bob2: the extras coordination isnt up to me... It's up to john
[09:58] <\sh> Mez: u r the SPoC right?
[09:58] <bob2> does anyone check this sort of thing?
[09:59] <bob2> surely being involved in free software has made you all aware of what software licenses mean
[09:59] <Mez> \sh - for backports
[09:59] <\sh> Mez: kick jdong then to show up here to get his a** whipped ;)
[09:59] <bob2> what's john don'gs email address then?
[09:59] <bob2> also, it's a bit crap none of the backports people are in #ubuntu
[10:00] <bob2> http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/distribute.html
[10:00] <bob2> acrobat shouldn't be in multiverse, afaict
[10:02] <\sh> bob2: elmo should have a look
[10:02] <bob2> yes
[10:02] <bob2> but I can't file a bug on it in LP
[10:02] <\sh> bob2: deal directly with it...don't file a bug
[10:03] <\sh> bob2: it's a serious issue I think
[10:03] <bob2> yes, I know
[10:04] <azeem> acroread has been in multiverse since warty, it seems
[10:05] <Mez> bob2 - I would be in tere if it wasnt for the shitty redirect thing
[10:05] <\sh> bob2: and ask elmo to remove w32codecs from extras 
[10:05] <bob2> Mez: so identify already
[10:05] <Mez> and bob2 - john.dong@gmail.com
[10:05] <bob2> \sh: extras isn't hosted on canonical machines, afaict
[10:05] <Mez> bob2 - I always identify, but the thing shoves me in there whether I identify or not
[10:05] <jlj> many moons ago I mailed gentoo-dev about their illegal mirroring of w32codecs, I gave up after realizing that not a single person on the list knew anything about copyright
[10:05] <Mez> unless I join manually
[10:05] <bob2> azeem: 5.0 had a less useless license, iirc
[10:06] <Mez> bob2:L extras isnt no
[10:06] <\sh> bob2: right
[10:06] <bob2> jlj: yeah, I kinda expected people to in ubuntu-land :|
[10:06] <\sh> I'm mixing it every time up with backports ,-)
[10:06] <bob2> \sh: I'm going to email jdong about the rest
[10:06] <Mez> I can remove the stuff from extras
[10:06] <Mez> but It'll take me a while
[10:07] <Mez> I havent updated from the svn repo in ages
[10:07] <bob2> the repository is in svn?
[10:07] <bob2> are you joking?
[10:07] <Mez> no
[10:08] <Mez> lol
[10:08] <Mez> nothings been updated
[10:08] <Mez> just the extras stuff's been put together
[10:08] <Mez> bob, what needs removing?
[10:08] <Mez> ./dists/hoary-extras/restricted/binary-i386/acroread-plugins_7.0-0.9~5.04ubp2_i386.deb
[10:08] <Mez> ./dists/hoary-extras/restricted/binary-i386/acroread_7.0-0.9~5.04ubp2_i386.deb
[10:09] <Mez> ./dists/hoary-extras/restricted/binary-i386/w32codecs_20050216-0.0_i386.deb
[10:09] <bob2> mozilla-acroread, perhaps, haven't lookged inside it
[10:09] <bob2> realplayer, sun-j*
[10:09] <bob2> unless you went and asked for permission
[10:10] <Mez> *shrugs*
[10:13] <bob2> they gone now?
[10:13] <Mez> mez@apathy:/backports/tree/backports$ svn commit
[10:13] <Mez> Deleting       dists/hoary-extras/restricted/binary-i386/acroread-plugins_7.0-0.9~5.04ubp2_i386.deb
[10:13] <Mez> Deleting       dists/hoary-extras/restricted/binary-i386/acroread_7.0-0.9~5.04ubp2_i386.deb
[10:13] <Mez> Deleting       dists/hoary-extras/restricted/binary-i386/realplayer_10.0.4-0.2~5.04ubp1_i386.deb
[10:13] <Mez> Deleting       dists/hoary-extras/restricted/binary-i386/sun-j2re1.5_1.5.0+update04_i386.deb
[10:13] <Mez> Deleting       dists/hoary-extras/restricted/binary-i386/sun-j2sdk1.5_1.5.0+update04_i386.deb
[10:13] <Mez> Deleting       dists/hoary-extras/restricted/binary-i386/w32codecs_20050216-0.0_i386.deb
[10:13] <Mez> Deleting       dists/warty-backports/universe/binary-i386/sun-j2re1.3debian_0.17.6-4.10ubp1_all.deb
[10:13] <Mez> Deleting       dists/warty-backports/universe/binary-i386/sun-j2re1.4debian_0.17.6-4.10ubp1_all.deb
[10:13] <Mez> Deleting       dists/warty-backports/universe/binary-i386/sun-j2re1.5debian_0.17.6-4.10ubp1_all.deb
[10:13] <Mez> Deleting       dists/warty-backports/universe/binary-i386/sun-j2sdk1.3debian_0.17.6-4.10ubp1_all.deb
[10:13] <Mez> Deleting       dists/warty-backports/universe/binary-i386/sun-j2sdk1.4debian_0.17.6-4.10ubp1_all.deb
[10:14] <Mez> Deleting       dists/warty-backports/universe/binary-i386/sun-j2sdk1.5debian_0.17.6-4.10ubp1_all.deb
[10:14] <Mez> Committed revision 549.
[10:14] <Mez> that'll take a while to be sent out to the mirrors
[10:14] <bob2> er
[10:14] <Mez> poop
[10:14] <bob2> those last ones sound like installer packages
[10:14] <Mez> ..?
[10:14] <bob2> they're arch: all
[10:14] <bob2> which java is not
[10:14] <Mez> yeah
[10:14] <Mez> they were installer packages
[10:15] <Mez> mkdeb
[10:15] <Mez> or something from java
[10:15] <bob2> installer's are probably ok...
[10:15] <bob2> the issue is distributing sun's code yourself
[10:15] <Mez> *rolls eyes*
[10:15] <\sh> sun-j2re1.5_1.5.0+update04
[10:15] <\sh> sun-j2sdk1.5_1.5.0+update04_
[10:15] <\sh> were the problems
[10:16] <bob2> sorry, I thought it was clear I meant the ones containing sun code
[10:17] <bob2> also
[10:17] <bob2> isn't freenx under the GPL?
[10:17] <Mez> they do contain sun code though
[10:17] <bob2> it doesn't just download the tar file or you?
[10:17] <Mez> no.
[10:18] <Mez> It contains a tar and then compiles it
[10:18] <bob2> ok
[10:18] <bob2> that doesn't sound arch: all...
[10:18] <bob2> distributing FreeNX without the source violates the GPL, too
[10:19] <Mithrandir> bob2: freenx is a bash script.
[10:19] <bob2> haha
[10:19] <Mithrandir> bob2: seriously. :-)
[10:20] <bob2> hm, I thought it was a gpl version of NX
[10:20] <bob2> my mistake
[10:21] <\sh> ok gentlemen...I will go early to bed today...g'night 
[10:24] <Mez> bob2, old backports/extras has a lot of issues
[10:24] <Mez> backports are brought into line now
[10:24] <Mez> and I'm working on getting extras into line
[10:25] <bob2> where's the, er, canonical location for extras?
[10:25] <Mez> ermmmm....
[10:25] <Mez> there technically isnt one thats open to the public
[10:26] <Mithrandir> bob2: well, !M NX is just a compiled perl script.. it can fairly easily be decompiled,.
[10:26] <Mithrandir> s/,//
[10:27] <bob2> ah
[10:27] <Mez> bob2, btw, you can field the complaints on the fourmns
[10:28] <bob2> bleh forums
[10:29] <Mez> You may not otherwise alter or modify the Software or create a new installer for the Software. 
[10:30] <Mez> from the Acrobat licence
[10:30] <Mez> does that count?
[10:30] <bob2> How to distribute Adobe Reader software
[10:30] <bob2> You may post Adobe Reader software on company intranet sites or local networks. You may also distribute Adobe Reader on a CD or any other physical media as long as you accept the terms and conditions of the electronic Adobe Reader Distribution Agreement.

[10:30] <bob2> http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/distribute.html appears to be the rules for distirbuting it
[10:31] <Mez> Please complete the Adobe Reader distribution request only if you are interested in distributing Adobe Reader software via internal Web site, CD, or other media, or are interested in placing an "Includes Adobe Reader" logo on your printed material. As an alternative, you may want to create a link on your CD directly to the Adobe Reader download page.
[10:31] <Mez> "other media!"
[10:31] <Mez> can tecnically be via internet
[10:31] <bob2> er
[10:32] <bob2> I think they get to define "media"
[10:32] <Mez> they dont though
[10:32] <bob2> also
[10:32] <bob2> Third-party Web sites are required to link directly to Adobe.com for the download of Adobe Reader software. Hosting the software independently is not permitted.
[10:32] <bob2> which explicitly forbids it
[10:33] <Kamion> if a local web site counts as media then one could fairly easily argue the extras site does too (but they'd still have to complete the distribution request, and would have to do so on behalf of all their mirrors)
[10:34] <Mez> Kamion: what about in ubuntu ? acroread has been in ubuntu since warty... doesnt that break the same guidelines
[10:34] <bob2> warty has 5.0
[10:34] <bob2> which had a different license, iirc
[10:35] <Kamion> right
[10:35] <Kamion> and yes, multiverse probably has the same issue
[10:35] <Kamion> what happens in multiverse is basically sabdfl's call though
[10:35] <azeem> bob2: I'm pretty sure Debian removed acroread from non-free before 5.0, though
[10:35] <Mez> hmmles...
[10:35] <ogra> phlaegel, yup
[10:35] <Mez> multiverse is one of those "gray areas" really
[10:36] <bob2> azeem: I can't seem to find the debian-legal discussion atm
[10:36] <bob2> Mez: breach of copyright is pretty clear-cut
[10:36] <Kamion> Mez: distinction between components is a matter of policy, not legality
[10:36] <dholbach> i'm off - see you guys
[10:36] <Kamion> azeem: acroread was removed because we weren't allowed to recompile/relink it to fix a zlib security hole
[10:37] <Kamion> (er we == Debian)
[10:37] <azeem> ah, right
[10:37] <Kamion> although I think 5.0 was already out then, and apparently had an unacceptable licence, but I don't remember the discussion clearly enough to comment further
[10:37] <Mez> Kamion: yes, I know... but.. as I was saying, multiverse is where the gray area stuff goes (stuff that can be distributed, but not used unless you have the right licence)
[10:37] <Mez> IIRC
[10:37] <Kamion> you might find it in -private archives
[10:37] <Mez> weird that it's been updated to 7 in breezy
[10:38] <Kamion> debian/copyright lied about the licence
[10:38] <Kamion> so nobody noticed the change
[10:38] <Kamion> however as I say it's sabdfl's call
[10:39] <Mez> actually, acroread seems to be pulled from marillat
[10:39] <Kamion> indeed
[10:39] <Mez> ah well, i suppose if we're p;ulling things from apt-get.org - might as well pull things from marillat too
[10:40] <Kamion> multiverse pulled stuff from marillat long before it pulled stuff from apt-get.org
[10:40] <Kamion> fyi
[10:40] <cogumbreiro> i don't know if here is the place to talk, how do I ask to be the manager of Serpentine on launchpad?
[10:41] <Kamion> cogumbreiro: #launchpad would probably be a good start
[10:41] <cogumbreiro> thx Kamion
[10:41] <Kamion> np
[10:42] <Mez> fair enough kamion :D I didnt know that
[10:42] <Mez> but... meh
[10:42] <Mez> as you said
[10:42] <Mez> it's sabdfl's call
[10:42] <Mez> :D
[10:42] <Mithrandir> Kamion: Acrobat> Adobe changed the licence of all versions when 5 was released, iirc.
[10:43] <Mithrandir> so 4 suddenly got undistributable.
[11:18] <martinald> hi guys
[11:18] <sivang> hi martinald 
[11:18] <bddebian> Hello martinald, sivang 
[11:19] <martinald> can someone prod bug 11237
[11:37] <phlaegel> ogra: ping
[11:43] <sivang> hey bddebian 
[12:00] <ogra> phlaegel, pong