[08:42] <volvoguy> AndyFitz, how's it going? sorry i dropped off the planet again. my back's been really bad again lately. how are the icons going? 
[10:50] <kamstrup> Is there any plans for a metacity theme?
[10:50] <kamstrup> ... for Breezy that is?
[10:52] <volvoguy> clearlooks should be the default theme for breezy. 
[10:53] <kamstrup> For GTK of course, yes. But also for metacity? 
[10:54] <volvoguy> i believe so, although i'm half asleep. 
[10:55] <volvoguy> help my brain. which bits does metacity draw? 
[10:55] <kamstrup> Window borders.
[10:56] <volvoguy> yep. that should be clearlooks. 
[10:56] <kamstrup> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopArtwork mentions this bug: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13305
[10:56] <volvoguy> most likely "human" controls and tentatively titled "humility" icon theme. 
[10:57] <kamstrup> The bug report refers to this screenie: http://gnome-look.org/content/pre2/27516-2.jpg
[10:58] <kamstrup> I really think that those colored buttons is the wayu to go from an accesibilty point of view
[10:59] <volvoguy> i don't have exceptionally good eyes, and i use 1600x1200 resolution and the windows are quite clear to me. 
[11:00] <volvoguy> i'm not sure what bright colors would fix, with a large percentage of the world's male population having some degree of color blindness. 
[11:01] <kamstrup> Both of parents-in-law regularly hit the wrong buttons...
[11:02] <kamstrup> Pilgrim (the theme in the screenshot) has two advantages: 1) Clear distinction of buttons through colors. 2) Bigger (wider) buttons are easier to hit.
[11:02] <volvoguy> i think a better solution would be the availability of a high(er) contrast theme, but not make that the default. 
[11:03] <volvoguy> just as the other two primary desktop OS's ship with more accessible themes, but have one with broader visual appeal as the default. 
[11:03] <kamstrup> Mandriva ships a HighContrast Theme but I wouldn't put those on any desktops unless the users where visually impared in a big way
[11:04] <kamstrup> WinXP has big buttons on the window border, and the X is red
[11:05] <volvoguy> something that will happen in the future, but not in time for breezy is integration of the "gnome-art" app. with about 3 mouse clicks a user can preview, download and install any theme on art.ubuntu.com or art.gnome.org. 
[11:06] <volvoguy> i think variety is a better solution than trying to please everyone with one theme. 
[11:06] <kamstrup> Oh, but we have no choice but to try an please everyone with one theme :-)
[11:07] <kamstrup> I have helped install Ubuntu on 5-10 of my friends machines, and  non of them have changed the default theme
[11:08] <volvoguy> i'm physically handicapped. should i expect every store i visit to have electric carts for me to ride in, or should i choose to only go to the stores that provide that? 
[11:08] <kamstrup> ... and then there are my parent-in-law. They're _certainly_ not going toi change the theme :-)
[11:09] <volvoguy> but they can, especially if it's made as easy as i hope. :)
[11:10] <volvoguy> are you using breezy now? 
[11:10] <kamstrup> yes
[11:10] <volvoguy> what is your default window border?
[11:11] <kamstrup> Right now it is Human. But that's a long story...
[11:11] <volvoguy> i'm actually not sure if they've switched the default to clearlooks yet. 
[11:11] <kamstrup> It's usually Pilgrim.
[11:12] <kamstrup> I actually prefer Human over Clearlooks window borders, if it comes down to that
[11:13] <volvoguy> canonical hasn't been great about keeping us "in the know" concerning some of these details. 
[11:13] <kamstrup> I've actually been wondering how much "power" (if any) the art team has
[11:14] <volvoguy> yeah. i'm the team lead and i've been wondering the same thing. 
[11:14] <kamstrup> The way I figured it, we are supposed to deliver a full theme (gtk, metacity, icon), and they will consider it... 
[11:14] <kamstrup> Isn't there a bounty for it?
[11:15] <volvoguy> there isn't a bounty that i know of. 
[11:15] <volvoguy> but yes, ideally a custom theme was desired. 
[11:17] <volvoguy> unfortunately we seem to have a lot of obstacles to overcome. our team was created fairly late in the game, we *thought* we were waiting for hardware for a server before we really got started, and we thought there would be tons of members. 
[11:17] <volvoguy> at this point i'll be happy if andrew can get the icons finished. 
[11:18] <kamstrup> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopArtwork actually speak of a "Ubuntu Artwork Challenge"
[11:18] <volvoguy> i haven't quite figured out how to get everyone working together when everyone wants to work on their own thing. 
[11:20] <kamstrup> A fixed plan is always a good thing. One where you can put check marks as things gets done.
[11:22] <volvoguy> that page is a good example of our current state of confusion. none of the canonical people are involved in what we do really, and there's barely enough of us to create all those items and have several options to choose from. 
[11:23] <volvoguy> i could sit down and create each item on that page in an afternoon, but without knowing our authority, it could be a waste of a perfectly good afternoon. 
[11:24] <volvoguy> regarding the artwork challenge - a number of people have repeatedly emailed jeff waugh about it (apparently he suggested it) and he's never said another word about it. 
[11:26] <kamstrup> yes... It's very frustrating. I also submitted to the "Breezy Mascot Competition". That one also got drowned in silence.
[11:26] <volvoguy> we could now mention it on art.ubuntu.com, but that gives the world 9 days to create and vote on the complete theme. 
[11:27] <kamstrup> 9 days... That's for to long time! :-D
[11:27] <kamstrup> I work best under _real_ pressure :-D
[11:28] <volvoguy> i'm having surgery shortly after breezy's release. i'm hoping someone like andrew will take over as lead, even if it's only temporarily, and have a heart-to-heart with the appropriate canonical person. 
[11:31] <volvoguy> we need to know how far our authority goes, what requirements canonical has for each graphic element. define "the team". distribute tasks..... 
[11:32] <kamstrup> Jeff Waugh is jdub, right? He's on #ubuntu-devel atvm...
[11:33] <volvoguy> i had planned on getting a lot done before breezy, none of which was artwork directly. making how-to's on the wiki, setting goals.... unfortunately my medical issues have prevented me from doing much of that lately. 
[11:33] <volvoguy> yep. jdub. 
[11:34] <kamstrup> We could ask him right now... Get him cornered ;-P
[11:34] <volvoguy> as in "indubstrial" - see... he knows about creating themes. he could point us in the right direction.
[11:35] <volvoguy> i don't want to do that personally at this point. i've begged him for some assistance several times and haven't heard a word back from him. 
[11:37] <kamstrup> All I need to know is; will they even consider it, if we submit a full theme...
[11:37] <volvoguy> you're welcome to go bug him about the theme/mascot contest issues though. :) i've just decided that he's not concerned with assisting our team. 
[11:38] <kamstrup> ok. I'll try if I can get some attention on #ubuntu-devel
[11:38] <volvoguy> the problem with that though, is that there's so few of us it will nearly be a 1-2 man project with 3-4 people voting. 
[11:39] <volvoguy> it could be done, but i personally don't think we could out do human or clearlooks in 9 days. 
[11:41] <volvoguy> and on that note, i need to go. i'm so drugged up i'm drooling on the keyboard. i'll try to hang out as much as possible tomorrow though for more brainstorming. this was a good chat tonight. :o) 
[11:41] <volvoguy> g'night for now. 
[11:49] <kamstrup> Just for the record (as I expect no one is listening right now), we might package a theme and get a MOTU to include it in universe. Not that it would be easier to find here, than on art.ubuntu.com though.