[03:31] <cyphase> brb
[08:50] <smurfix> Is there a date+time for the next TB meeting? Wiki still says Sept 6th ...
[10:25] <sivang> smurfix: I was also wondering
[08:48] <spiral> hello
[08:49] <ogra> spiral, still one h to go :)
[08:49] <spiral> ogra: yeah, I thought it was that... 'still having difficulties with DST...
[08:50] <ogra> date -u is your friend :)
[08:52] <spiral> ogra: thanks for the tip :-)
[09:18] <opi> LoCO meeting will start in 1h, am I right? :)
[09:18] <dholbach>  loco team meeting is tomorrow
[09:18] <dholbach> today is TB meeting :)
[09:19] <opi> HA HA
[09:19] <opi> who's idiot!
[09:20] <opi> dholbach, BTW: how's Berlin? :)
[09:20] <dholbach> opi: it is charming
[09:20] <dholbach> absolutely charming
[09:20] <opi> dholbach, I'm going to pay a visit there, to my friends
[09:20] <dholbach> oh wow cool
[09:20] <opi> dholbach, maybe we can have a beer or something
[09:20] <ogra> its just lacking a government right now :)
[09:20] <dholbach> be sure to tell me when
[09:20] <dholbach> ogra: not only berlin :)
[09:20] <ogra> heh
[09:21] <opi> dholbach, my girlfriend was there month ago, but I didn't want to disturb you at your moving 
[09:21] <dholbach> opi: yeah, i probably wasn't even there
[09:21] <opi> ogra, well, anarchy is better than no goverment at all
[09:21] <dholbach> opi is getting philosophical
[09:21] <dholbach> :)
[09:21] <opi> :P
[09:21] <opi> TB is Thinkers Board, right?
[09:22] <dholbach> exactly
[09:22] <opi> I have to set up my Blackberry then, I can't miss another CoC/LoCo meeting
[09:22] <opi> have fun with TB meeting
[09:23] <dholbach> thank you
[09:27] <nickm_> iv never been to one of these before, are they fairly formal or can any butt in when they have something to say?
[09:27] <nickm_> within reason
[09:28] <sivang> TB meeting still on?
[09:29] <nickm_> 32 mins
[09:29] <nickm_> to go
[09:29] <nickm_> 31
[09:29] <Kamion> people need to stick to the agenda otherwise the meeting becomes interminable
[09:29] <Kamion> which is pretty dire for those people whose jobs require them to stay up late in order to get to them
[09:29] <Kamion> out of courtesy, please try not to derail them too much
[09:30] <nickm_> kamion, i understand, thanks
[09:30] <sivang> Kamion: can I request review for possibly main/motu maintainership? I've collected some work I've done and proposed myself as a member for main
[09:30] <Kamion> that said, you're welcome to contribute pertinent comments; they aren't moderated
[09:30] <Kamion> sivang: I'm not a TB member and don't have power over that
[09:30] <sivang> Kamion: oh
[09:30] <sivang> ok
[09:31] <\sh> sivang: where r u on the LP team lists as proposed member?
[09:32] <sivang> \sh: I was for core devels (main) but couldn't find the MOTU one
[09:33] <ogra> sivang, start with member first
[09:33] <\sh> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-dev <- motu
[09:33] <ogra> and after youre approved https://launchpad.net/people/motu/+members
[09:33] <ogra> ^^ real motu
[09:34] <\sh> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-core-dev/ <- main 
[09:34] <ogra> ubuntu-dev is "uploaders"...
[09:34] <dholbach> because we have some unreal MOTUs as well
[09:34] <dholbach> :-p
[09:34] <\sh> oh ok
[09:34] <ogra> motu is the malone group etc
[09:34] <\sh> but i thought the new ones should use this list to be approved 
[09:34] <ogra> yes
[09:34] <ogra> motu is only after youre approved...
[09:35] <\sh> dholbach: unreal motus?
[09:35] <dholbach> \sh: exactly :)
[09:36] <sivang> ogra: I'm already a member, please, since about ages ago
[09:36] <dholbach> \sh: if you look at the list of MOTUs and try to remember, when they appeared the last time, you'll get what i mean :)
[09:36] <ogra> sivang, in launchpad ? 
[09:36] <sivang> ogra: no, not in launchapd
[09:36] <\sh> real motus are living in castle greyscull...unreal motus are driving around with big jim?
[09:36] <ogra> sivang, you see...
[09:36] <\sh> dholbach: oh that u mean
[09:37] <ogra> sivang, its technically impossible to become uploader in launchpad without ubuntite status
[09:37] <Kamion> sivang: propose yourself for membership of the ubuntumembers team and I'll fix that for you
[09:37] <sivang> Kamion: ok, thanks
[09:37] <ogra> sivang, i guess you'll have to wait until UBZ to have a valid key to upload it to launchpad
[09:39] <ogra> Kamion, launchpad allows that without signed CoC and without uploaded key ? i thought that not possible
[09:40] <\sh> dholbach: actually you will see me again for ubuntu 6.04 ;)
[09:40] <dholbach> :)
[09:40] <dholbach> i hope so
[09:40] <sivang> Kamion: done
[09:40] <sivang> ogra: thanks :-D
[09:41] <ogra> :)
[09:41] <\sh> dholbach: it's a promise :)
[09:41] <sivang> \sh: what do you guys mean unreal motus ?
[09:42] <ivoks> sivang: fake motus :)
[09:43] <sivang> Kamion: Should I upload my public key as well? (given it's not signed by anyone yet)
[09:43] <sivang> Kamion: (or wait for UBZ keysigning )
[09:43] <\sh> hey mvo 
[09:43] <ivoks> sivang: upload it
[09:43] <ogra> hi mvo
[09:43] <Kamion> ogra: no idea.
[09:43] <Kamion> sivang: no harm in uploading i
[09:43] <Kamion> t
[09:44] <Kamion> sivang: and you might as well try signing the CoC with it and see what lp does
[09:45] <sivang> Kamion: ok, using armor or bin signing ?
[09:45] <Kamion> it tells you IIRC
[09:45] <Kamion> gpg --clearsign
[09:45] <sivang> yes, armor then , thanks
[09:45] <Kamion> follow the links from your home page on lp
[09:46] <Kamion> ogra: well, LP seems quite happy to let me approve sivang for ubuntumembers
[09:46] <ogra> heh
[09:47] <ogra> that shouldnt work without a valid key... lets point it out at UBZ...
[09:47] <sivang> Kamion: yay thanks!
[09:48] <\sh> ogra: u mean unsigned key
[09:48] <sivang> finding bugs whereever I go...;-)
[09:48] <ogra> \sh, unsigned == not valid, yes
[09:48] <ivoks> ogra: shouldn't i be on ubuntu-dev? since, i do uploads :)
[09:48] <ogra> ivoks, yes
[09:49] <ivoks> ok
[09:49] <ogra> ivoks, propose yourself there
[09:49] <ivoks> i just did
[09:50] <ogra> i    sentout a mail when we switched, you somehow slipped through
[09:50] <ivoks> story of my life :)
[09:50] <ogra> sorry :)
[09:50] <ivoks> it's ok :)
[09:51] <sivang> meh
[09:51] <sivang> Launchpad could not import GPG key, the reason was:HTTP Error 500: OK at http://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?search=0xD2513586&op=get.Check if you published it correctly in the global key ring (using gpg --send-keys KEY) and that you add entered the fingerprint correctly (as produced by gpg --fingerprint YOU). Try later or cancel your request.
[09:51] <Kamion> ogra: no, "valid" for a key means that it's properly formed and can produce correct signatures etc.
[09:52] <Kamion> equating valid with signed will confuse cryptographers :-)
[09:52] <Kamion> sivang: gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --send-keys D2513586
[09:52] <ogra> Kamion, hmm, i would see signing as a form of validation :)
[09:53] <ogra> Kamion, but i also would see binary data still as data *g*, so i dont count here :)
[09:53] <Florob> ogra: it is an aproval of vaildation, not meaning it can't be vaild in the first place
[09:53] <Kamion> (what would non-binary data be? ternary?)
[09:54] <ogra> still data...
[09:54] <ogra> opposed to programs or scripts
[09:54] <jbailey> Kamion: unary data.  It's what you get when you unplug the computer.
[09:54] <jbailey> All zeros...
[09:54] <\sh> hmm....
[09:54] <ogra> heh
[09:54] <ogra> lets not get philosophcal :)
[09:54] <nickm_> sivang, you need to give it a min, it does work, but i found you had to wate for whatever to update
[09:55] <nickm_> s/wate/wait
[09:55] <Kamion> <cjwatson@cairhien ~>$ /usr/lib/xscreensaver/pyro
[09:55] <Kamion> <cjwatson@cairhien ~>$ echo $?
[09:55] <Kamion> 0
[09:55] <Kamion> looks like a program to me :-)
[09:55] <sivang> nickm_: ok, now it worked :)
[09:55] <ogra> Kamion, sure... 
[09:55] <nickm_> :)
[09:59] <JaneW> hi all
[09:59] <pitti> Hi
[09:59] <ivoks> hi
[09:59] <ogra> Kamion, i already committed to change the name to -hacks ... just not now 
[09:59] <lathiat> yo
[09:59] <lathiat> ogra: haha your getting bashed here to? ;)
[10:00] <ogra> lathiat, i start getting used to it...
[10:00] <doko> hi
[10:00] <lathiat> poor ogra
[10:00] <mdz> good morning, everyone
[10:00] <Keybuk> good evening
[10:00] <mdz> sabdfl is away this week and won't be able to attend
[10:00] <ogra> evening
[10:01] <dholbach> hi
[10:01] <Keybuk> where away ~= sunning himself on a beach somewhere
[10:01] <\sh> ok 20UTC
[10:01] <JaneW> Keybuk: SA afaik
[10:02] <mdz> there are currently 9 pending MOTU members in launchpad
[10:02] <Keybuk> it's SA next week, beach this week
[10:02] <mdz> I'm not sure how many are existing MOTUs who need to be added to the team, and how many are new
[10:02] <sivang> rehi all
[10:02] <mdz> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-dev/+members
[10:02] <Keybuk> weird, ubuntu-devel is "Ubuntu X Maintainers"
[10:03] <mdz> Ante Karamati ?
[10:03] <bddebian> brb
[10:03] <ivoks> here
[10:03] <ivoks> mdz: /me is Ante
[10:03] <ivoks> :)
[10:03] <seb128> hi
[10:03] <ogra> mdz, Michiel Sikkes, Ante Karamati, Chuck, Jorge Daza Garca-Blanes are motus
[10:03] <dholbach> they need upload privileges afaik
[10:04] <ogra> dholbach, they have
[10:04] <Keybuk> hmm, remind me, how do we see pending members again?
[10:04] <dholbach> oh they do
[10:04] <dholbach> alright
[10:04] <ivoks> we have
[10:04] <Keybuk> ah, s'ok, found the page
[10:04] <Keybuk> we've approved ivoks already, no?
[10:04] <mdz> ogra: I don't remember Jorge; please send me mail with the TB meeting date so I can verify
[10:04] <ivoks> yes
[10:04] <ogra> Keybuk, yes in may
[10:04] <mdz> that leaves:
[10:04] <mdz>  Benjamin Montgomery  	 Dmitri Alenitchev  	 Jorge Daza Garca-Blanes  	 Matthias Urlichs  	 StefanPotyra  	 lee johnson  
[10:05] <ogra> mdz, phew, i have to dig that up 
[10:05] <\sh> StefanPotyra is sistopy...
[10:05] <mdz> if your name is on that list and you're here, please speak up
[10:05] <Keybuk> are you sure we've never approved smurfix?! :p
[10:05] <ogra> mdz, he is comadreja and did many uploads as MOTU already
[10:05] <dholbach> sistpoty is stefanpotyra who isn't here
[10:05] <smurf> mdz: drop me (=MatthiasUrlichs =smurfix), that was a mis-click
[10:06] <mdz> smurf: done
[10:06] <sivang> mdz: I would like to be considered for some kind of maintainership, I already worked on main quite some.
[10:06] <smurf> I admit I was kindof less visible in the past months, but ... ;-)
[10:06] <sivang> (lpi, g-s-t, g-c-m etc..)
[10:06] <ogra> sivang, want g-s-s fits good :)
[10:06] <sivang> ogra: yeah, why not, what is it? :)
[10:06] <Keybuk> evil
[10:06] <sivang> kidding
[10:06] <JaneW> heh
[10:06] <ogra> sivang, sty this meeting and you'll know it
[10:07] <ogra> ;)
[10:07] <mdz> smurf: you're already in ubuntu-core-dev
[10:07] <sivang> gnomse-screen-save, I know ;-)
[10:07] <Keybuk> you know that bit at the end of Time Bandits, where his parents die and everyone leaves him alone in the street?  it's like that
[10:07] <smurf> mdz: exactly
[10:07] <Keybuk> but more so
[10:07] <ogra> Keybuk, he still has the firefighter left :)
[10:07] <mdz> so: Benjamin Montgomery    Dmitri Alenitchev  lee johnson
[10:07] <mdz> any of those folks here today?
[10:08] <ogra> bmonty seems away....
[10:08] <\sh> i pinged him on motu
[10:08] <ogra> and i think he's not member yet
[10:08] <ogra> hmm, neighborlee isnt here either
[10:09] <ogra> and i have no idea who Dmitri Alenitchev is
[10:09] <mdz> ok
[10:09] <mdz> moving on to the next agenda item, then
[10:09] <ogra> *sigh*
[10:09] <mdz> xscreensaver vs. gnome-screensaver
[10:09] <bddebian> ack
[10:10] <pitti> is anybody actually favoring g-s-s?
[10:10] <pitti> anybody apart from sabdfl, that is?
[10:10] <Keybuk> rumour has it that ogra suggested it to him <g>
[10:10] <mdz> I'd like to hear from seb128
[10:10] <ogra> seb128 ??
[10:10] <sivang> pitti: it's less secure then xss , that's why many are against it?
[10:10] <ogra> Keybuk, :PPPP
[10:10] <dholbach> i wasn't bitten hard by gnome-screensaver, but that's all i can say
[10:10] <smurf> what pity that sabdfl isn't here *ducks&runs*
[10:10] <lathiat> sivang: how is it less secure?
[10:11] <pitti> if the only issue is "we need to convince sabdfl that we need to postpone it" then there's not much to discuss about here
[10:11] <mdz> sivang: no one has said any such thing
[10:11] <ogra> dholbach, because you don play with the settings
[10:11] <mdz> the issue at hand is that switching to gnome-screensaver has been a destabilizing change
[10:11] <pitti> sivang: not less secure, but it lacks important features and has serious bugs
[10:11] <sivang> mdz: k, sorry I got the wrong impression then from previous IRC talks I glanced at..
[10:11] <Keybuk> pitti: which serious bugs?  #s ?
[10:11] <pitti> sivang: see jdub's email on u-devel
[10:11] <Keybuk> when I did my research earlier, nobody could actually quote #s, just potentials
[10:11] <mdz> the rationale for the change was to benefit from the enhanced unlock dialog
[10:11] <lathiat> I personally think it should be punted back as it doesn't seem to quite be ready and is missing various features people want, among other things, none of the apps with xscreensaver integrationw ill work, e.g. movie players, i thought gnomescreensaver-command might be a dropin-replacement but it doesn't appear to be ?
[10:12] <mdz> but it has created more problems than anticipated
[10:12] <ivoks> yes
[10:12] <seb128> mdz: we talked about it just before the feature freeze. I said I was a bit busy to make the default config changes, hacks package split, etc and nobody stepped ... for me it was delayed to after 5.10. Imho that's a bit short to make something really cool with it now and we should stay with xscreensaver for 5.10
[10:12] <pitti> Keybuk: several people were bitten by lockouts, screensaver starts right when you are typing, that sort of things
[10:12] <ivoks> pitti: true
[10:12] <ivoks> happens to me all the time
[10:13] <mdz> it broke compatibility with an API (xscreensaver-command) used by many other packages
[10:13] <ogra> pitti, that was a bug in the default schemas file, its fixed
[10:13] <pitti> ogra: nice
[10:13] <mdz> also required changes in ltsp, casper, etc.
[10:13] <ogra> mdz, and probably with kde
[10:13] <seb128> mdz: I've no special issue with gnome-screensaver, it works fine and Suse use it for their new version and did a secutiry audit. Upstream is responsive too. But we have no real user feedback, it lacks some features and could use some UI polish
[10:13] <mdz> and it seems likely that there are more we haven't discoveerd
[10:13] <Keybuk> it does seem to lack xss's support for getting out of the way when other programs (totem, gnome-typing-monitor, etc.) need the screen
[10:13] <pitti> still, what about misssing features? power management and programmability (switch off by video players)?
[10:13] <mdz> ogra: kubuntu isn't using gnome-screensaver
[10:13] <ogra> mdz, i'm not clear with the lde issues yet
[10:13] <ogra> g-s-s conflicts xss
[10:14] <mdz> pitti: I haven't heard about that; can you  elaborate?
[10:14] <lathiat> not having a xscreensaver-command replacement is a pretty major thing imho
[10:14] <pitti> mdz: what Keybuk said
[10:14] <ogra> kde seems to use a wrapper around xss
[10:14] <\sh> ogra: true
[10:14] <seb128> pitti: me neither
[10:14] <seb128> pitti: why people don't bug about such issues?
[10:14] <mdz> I'm all for getting the bugs filed
[10:14] <lathiat> Keybuk: yeh thats because of xscreensaver-command
[10:14] <pitti> seb128: Jeff wrote about it on ubuntu-devel
[10:14] <mdz> but the matter at hand is the question of whether to back out to xscreensaver
[10:15] <mdz> does anyone else have information to present that hasn't been put forward already?
[10:15] <ogra> its the lack of configurability that bothers people, i pointed that out to sabdfl
[10:15] <pitti> in terms of our freeze status it would be wise to stay with the proven thing we have
[10:15] <seb128> pitti: you guys just come with mails describing issue than nobody pushed to ubuntu or upstream for months, just curious to have some real bugs to point
[10:15] <jbailey> lock-by-default was a bit surprising.
[10:15] <sivang> pitti: how was it pushed into breezy after FF and PF ?
[10:15] <ivoks> ogra: hm, gss blacks out on me, even if newest version...
[10:15] <ogra> sivang, sbdfl
[10:15] <smurf> seb128: screensavers kicking in when you don't want them to has been around for a rather long time, I for one am much too complacent about longstanding annoyance-level bugs like that
[10:15] <mdz> sivang: it was granted an exception
[10:15] <pitti> seb128: sorry, I have it running for only 2 hours now
[10:16] <sivang> mdz,ogra : k
[10:16] <seb128> pitti: k, so that's just "somebody said he had issue" with not concrete fact ... we should get real bugs to fix issues :)
[10:16] <ogra> ivoks, 15805
[10:17] <seb128> pitti: I use it for 2 months and it works fine for me
[10:17] <mdz> does anyone have something to say in defense of keeping gnome-screensaver for 5.10?
[10:17] <smurf> apart from the nicer dialog => not really
[10:17] <ogra> sabdfl wants it ? 
[10:17] <seb128> pitti: (not than I'm arguing we should use it)
[10:17] <Keybuk> gnome-screensaver is the right choice, I've been playing with it and it's very cute, and probably exactly what we're looking for in terms of a screensaver
[10:17] <smurf> ogra: That is a defense in what way? ;-)
[10:17] <Keybuk> it's certainly going to be better than xss from what I can tell, support dbus notifications and whatnot
[10:18] <ogra> smurf, since i'm the guy who gets the bugs assinged... ALL OF THEM
[10:18] <JaneW> mdz: jdub supports gnome-screensaver, but not for 5.10
[10:18] <seb128> same for me
[10:18] <ogra> smurf, (all ways i mean)
[10:18] <sivang> Keybuk: however, power management support is important for good laptop usability
[10:18] <seb128> I'm all for it, and it'll probably go with GNOME 2.4 upstream
[10:18] <seb128> 2.14
[10:18] <Keybuk> sivang: fwict it's going to get that
[10:18] <seb128> but not for 5.10
[10:19] <ogra> i'm neutral, i just want to know what i'll be working on... i cant work on both
[10:19] <mdz> ok, sounds like we're prepared for a vote
[10:20] <ogra> and gss will require still a lot of work on the lockscreen for mpt's changes...
[10:20] <mdz> Keybuk: ?
[10:20] <Keybuk> unfortunately it doesn't use the same API as the existing tool, and isn't yet fully developed; so I'd love to see it for dapper, but think it was really too late for it to be considered for breezy
[10:20] <doko> +1
[10:20] <pitti> +1
[10:20] <mdz> only TB members have a vote here
[10:20] <Keybuk> so if I had to pick between them today, I'd say xss today, and gss in three weeks when dapper opens
[10:20] <pitti> sorry
[10:21] <mdz> Keybuk: you have to pick between them today ;-)
[10:21] <ogra> mdz, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenSaver in case you didnt know it yet
[10:21] <Keybuk> xss then :)
[10:21] <mdz> I'm for reverting to xscreensaver
[10:22] <mdz> motion carried
[10:22] <JaneW> *yay*
[10:22] <ogra> who is talking to sabdfl about it ? 
[10:22] <mdz> ogra: that's my job
[10:22] <ogra> ok 
[10:22] <sivang> ogra: would you be interested in discussing what love gss needs after meeting, or at UBZ?
[10:23] <mdz> next item is from Keybuk
[10:23] <ogra> sivang, UBZ sounds good
[10:23] <mdz> upgrades from Debian releases
[10:23] <Keybuk> yes
[10:23] <mpt> it's on the UBZ BoF list
[10:23] <ogra> yup
[10:23] <Keybuk> the question is simple, do we want an upgrade from warty or sarge to breezy to work
[10:23] <mdz> UBZ is a bit too late to consider upgrades to Breezy ;-)
[10:23] <Keybuk> they don't right now :p
[10:23] <ogra> mdz, lol
[10:23] <sivang> mdz: hehe, right 
[10:24] <ivoks> Keybuk: ? i did couple of them
[10:24] <Keybuk> if we're happy to say "sorry, upgrade to hoary first" then we should just make sure it's said and agreed
[10:24] <mdz> Keybuk: I'm not interested in skipping from warty->breezy without going via hoary
[10:24] <mdz> that isn't much to ask
[10:24] <Keybuk> how about sarge->breezy?
[10:24] <mdz> sarge is certainly a worthwhile target
[10:24] <pitti> that would be more interesting
[10:24] <pitti> did anybody try this?
[10:24] <mdz> but it depends on what the issues are
[10:24] <ivoks> yeah, i did
[10:25] <ivoks> sarge with X -> breezy
[10:25] <mdz> are there any packages in sarge newer than in breezy?
[10:25] <mdz> I 
[10:25] <Keybuk> I've tried it a couple of times; the principal problem is that our modular xorg packages only replace/conflict the monolithic xorg packages and not xfree86 (as found in sarge)
[10:25] <ivoks> no, iirc
[10:25] <Keybuk> I don't think there are any newer in sarge
[10:25] <mdz> I think we ought to support upgrades from sarge to breezy, but not necessarily at all costs
[10:25] <ivoks> upgrade was smooth
[10:25] <mdz> if there are major complicating factors, we have higher-priority work
[10:25] <ivoks> there was only one issue...
[10:25] <pitti> Keybuk: so it's merely missing conflicts/replaces?
[10:26] <\sh> we would have some problems with some kde packages...amarok is one of them but this only applies to kubuntu(-desktop) when installed
[10:26] <\sh> I have to find out how many packages are different from sarge regarding kde stuff
[10:27] <Keybuk> my gut feeling would be that it's a "nice to have" if it's cheap timewise to do
[10:27] <mdz> Keybuk: did you file bugs?
[10:28] <mdz> let's get the bugs in Bugzilla, and prioritize them along with the rest
[10:28] <Keybuk> nope, wanted to see whether they were worthwhile first
[10:28] <Keybuk> will file tomorrow
[10:29] <mdz> ok
[10:29] <mdz> anything more on upgrades?
[10:29] <mdz> let's not make an official statement until we know what we're dealing with
[10:29] <\sh> so no warty -> breezy without hoary... and sarge -> breezy nth
[10:29] <sivang> mdz: are we going to use only malone at some point? (the multiple open bugs both on b.u.c and malone can cause some confusion)
[10:30] <mdz> sivang: yes
[10:30] <ogra> sivang, MOTU tries to sort themout from time to time
[10:30] <mdz> any other business for the TB meeting?
[10:30] <Keybuk> nope from me
[10:30] <bddebian> Wanna talk about fontforge? ;-P
[10:30] <sivang> lol
[10:30] <pitti> maybe default packages in server install? (openssh-server)
[10:31] <pitti> there were some questions about it recently
[10:31] <Keybuk> let's wait until jeff's customer turns up to defend that
[10:31] <mdz> pitti: it's too late to create a new seed for breezy
[10:31] <Kamion> server installs don't have to depend on seeds, FYI
[10:31] <mdz> currently server = minimal+standard, and we can't put servers there
[10:31] <Kamion> it's just a preseed variable set by cdimage
[10:31] <pitti> Keybuk: btw, I thought about it again, I think not installing any server package is fine
[10:32] <Kamion> base-config     base-config/package-selection   string ~tubuntu-standard
[10:32] <ivoks> :/
[10:32] <mdz> Kamion: hmm
[10:32] <Kamion> (I'm not defending or criticising the proposal, just a point of information)
[10:32] <mdz> I always run openssh-server on servers
[10:33] <mdz> but then, I also always run it on desktops
[10:33] <jbailey> I don't run it on firewalls or internet facing-machines.
[10:33] <ivoks> idea of headless installation falls apart if after install you don't have ssh access
[10:33] <mdz> (my own, not others')
[10:33] <jbailey> That's what serial consoles are for.
[10:33] <Kamion> my personal opinion is that it's best dealt with by documenting clearly that 'server' is just a base install on top of which you can install a server system of your choice, but doesn't actually install any servers automatically
[10:33] <\sh> mdz: on servers sshd is a must...on desktops a nice to have when u need it
[10:33] <sivang> I always get annoyed seeing it was not already installed when installing a new server
[10:33] <mdz> ivoks: the issues are the same during install and after
[10:33] <Kamion> ivoks: if you're doing an actual headless installation, d-i will install openssh-server.
[10:33] <sivang> it comes as default for RHEL3 and SLES9
[10:33] <mdz> ivoks: you need a console for installaton
[10:33] <Kamion> but most people aren't
[10:33] <\sh> mdz: and it depends how we see our server install
[10:33] <ivoks> mdz: kickstart?
[10:34] <Kamion> and that's not what our server install is
[10:34] <Kamion> ivoks: kickstart is orthogonal
[10:34] <ivoks> Kamion: well, ok :)
[10:34] <mdz> my gut feeling is that it's generally the right thing for servers
[10:34] <ivoks> agree
[10:35] <sivang> I second mdz
[10:35] <jbailey> *shrug*
[10:35] <ogra> ++
[10:35] <jbailey> I can always remove it on my boxes.
[10:35] <mdz> but I'm reluctant to make such a change without broader input from the community
[10:35] <sivang> then we should thread it up on u-d
[10:35] <mdz> sivang: I smell a deliverable
[10:35] <Kamion> if we do make such a change, it's even more important to document it stunningly clearly
[10:35] <pitti> after breezy then?
[10:35] <Kamion> given our trumpeted security policy elsewhere
[10:36] <Kamion> and, as I mentioned elsewhere, openssh doesn't exactly have a perfect security record
[10:36] <Florob> hmm... IMHO there shouldn't be objections to openssh-server, most distributions install it always anyway.
[10:36] <jbailey> Florob: It's one more port to get hacked.  But few objections beyond that.
[10:36] <mdz> do we have a facility for doing simple web polls?
[10:36] <Kamion> (no other ssh server is really any better as far as I know - openssh is just the best audited because it's the most popular, and so people find the most bugs in it)
[10:36] <jbailey> Florob: But not 'none'
[10:37] <ivoks> we could be special, no put telnetd-ssl :)
[10:37] <Kamion> but backporting openssh security fixes can notoriously be a pig sometimes, and I think we want to think about that rather carefully with regard to dapper's five-year support
[10:37] <ivoks> s/no/and
[10:37] <mdz> ok, let's defer this until we have more information
[10:37] <Kamion> although obviously we have to support openssh for five years anyway
[10:37] <mdz> any other business?
[10:37] <Kamion> so maybe that's not relevant
[10:37] <mdz> it's lunchtime over here
[10:38] <ogra> mdz, get some food then :)
[10:38] <sivang> mdz: bon appetite 
[10:38] <mdz> ok, adjourned then
[10:38] <mdz> thanks, all
[10:38] <dholbach> thanks mdz
[10:38] <pitti> good evening everybody
[10:38] <\sh> thx mdz
[10:38] <ogra> thanks mdz 
[10:38] <bddebian> Wow, that was quick :-)
[10:38] <pitti> mdz: enjoy your meal
[10:38] <ivoks> bye everbody
[10:38] <bddebian> Gnight folks
[10:38] <sivang> thanks mdz 
[10:38] <sivang> nigh bddebian 
[10:43] <JaneW> night
[10:43] <JaneW> please all remeber to add your suggestions for UBZ BOFs
[10:43] <JaneW> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/BOFs
[10:44] <\sh> I did already
[10:44] <\sh> should i put my name behind it?
[10:44] <ajmitch> JaneW: shall we flesh out the deferred ones?
[10:45] <jbailey> JaneW: Do LP BoFs go there as well as distro?
[10:45] <\sh> ajmitch: gogogo
[10:45] <bddebian> w00t ajmitch
[10:45] <jbailey> ajmitch: !!! \o/
[10:45] <JaneW> ajmitch: yes please
[10:46] <JaneW> jbailey: are the LP ones all public? If so I'd say yes...
[10:46] <JaneW> but we could make a separate page for them if there is a reason to do so.
[10:47] <ajmitch> I guess there could be a lot of them cluttering that page
[10:49] <ogra> ajmitch, YOU COME ??
[10:49] <jbailey> ajmitch: I told him how lovely Montral is. =)
[10:49] <ogra> heh
[10:49] <ajmitch> ogra: yes
[10:49] <ogra> HOORAY !!
[10:50] <ajmitch> I need a holiday ;)
[10:51] <ogra>  wow, who has put UbuntuClusters on the BOF list... cool
[10:51] <ogra> ajmitch, haha
[11:38] <FLeiXiuS> I leave my clustering to OpenBSD sorry Ubuntu ;-)
[11:38] <FLeiXiuS> OBSD runs a lot faster then my tweaked to all hell ubuntu server.
[11:49] <sladen> D'oh.
[11:49] <StacyWebb> greeting
[11:49] <StacyWebb> or rather greetings