[12:02] ogra: If you haven't followed E devel lately, it looks like this these days: http://get-e.org/Screenshots/User_Submitted/_images/e7_default.png (no, I'm not trying to convert you at all) [12:02] I haven't seen much from manoj though [12:02] ogra: i cant work with him. [12:02] and it requires a lot more than just syncing [12:02] does it? [12:02] especially with things like initramfs [12:02] hm [12:02] damn [12:02] i almost picked up the oreilly seliunx book this weekend [12:02] but I can work with jbailey with that [12:02] I talked with him about it before initramfs went into breezy [12:02] I presume the rules for Ubuntu packages regarding licenses are the same as Debians? [12:03] dsas: yep [12:03] ajmitch: ok, no ksh93 yet then :( [12:03] why is that? [12:03] what license does it have? [12:04] we still have multiverse for distributable but non-free [12:04] like debian has non-free [12:04] common public license - it has some clause about patents which makes it non gpl compatible I think [12:04] oh [12:04] it doesnt have to be gpl [12:04] gpl compatibility doesn't restrict something [12:05] the DFSG never has that as a restriction [12:05] ahh ok... [12:06] we can review it anyway [12:06] damn i need to buy tickets today [12:06] this week [12:07] by the way, if you don't mind an off topic question: I reported http://tolu.edu.hel.fi/~vrln/script.png as an initscript bug - that is a bug right? [12:07] well I don't think canonical would like to take on the clause here: http://hashphp.org/pastebin.php?pid=4900 but who knows... [12:07] ok, ksh93 is not a free softwrare license.. === robitaille [n=robitail@p235-083.public.uvic.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:07] tseng: Bah, it's only an 8 hour drive or so :) [12:07] ie, to me it looks like the echo part of the initscript prints the [ok] too early [12:07] bddebian: boston. === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:07] bad geometry [12:07] dsas, if the license allows redistribution we can get it in, eithe in universe (dfsg) or multiverse (non free but distributable) [12:07] tseng: Oh [12:07] bddebian: http://live.gnome.org/Boston2004 [12:07] bddebian: SEE YOU THERE [12:07] "License of ksh93 [12:07] The license of ksh93 is not a free software license. One reason for this is that it requires that all changes be sent to the developer. There may be other problems with the license as well that would make it non-free. " [12:08] ogra: multiverse only with that [12:09] ajmitch, if there is a sentence in it that allows distribution of the software its ready for multiverse [12:09] see squeak, debian doesnt ship it... we do [12:09] is it just me [12:09] or are those dates all off [12:09] (err, we dont *ship* it but make it available) [12:09] ogra: I know that [12:11] ajmitch: I can't see anything that says that in the license (CPL 1.0) but i'm not a lawyer.. [12:11] Well I'm heading home. See ya in a few gents. [12:11] dsas: that may have been in an older license [12:12] dsas: probably something to worry about for dapper [12:12] ajmitch: ok, noted. [12:12] would a shell likely be a hard project for a first packaging effort? [12:13] possibly [12:14] as you'd want to integrate with the system, sprinkling files in /etc [12:14] hmm ok, I'll scrap that idea then.. [12:15] dsas, pick something small but useful ... === ogra started with gcursor [12:15] and dholbach with timer-applet ... [12:15] dsas, look at these to get a impression what is easy for a start [12:19] ogra: ok thanks, I'll take a look around for something small and interesting. [12:21] is it very often you have to write patches for programs? or otherwise customise them?, My C coding is far from hot, I can muddle through most other things. [12:23] mostly its finding patches from others and merge them, the amount of C knowledge you need isnt big... === ajmitch started with something in debian [12:24] but since then I haven't really gone far :) [12:24] <\sh> ok...can somebody confirm that hcid is segfaulting? [12:35] ok, i'm off for the night, thanks for answering my questions tonight guys :) === dereks_ [n=dereks@66.9.7.66] has left #ubuntu-motu [] === macgyver2 [n=eric@unaffiliated/macgyver2] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ajmitch wishes #u-laptop didn't have its own hostinggeek equivalent [12:43] yeah [12:43] <\sh> hehe [12:43] i keep loosing channels [12:43] <\sh> yes [12:43] ajmitch: the worst was [12:43] that guy owned the channel for a while [12:43] first join [12:43] I know [12:43] I think he still owns it [12:43] at least he acts like he does === ajmitch also loses channels at times [12:45] so I have to put them in my autojoin list I think [12:45] yeah i never get around to that [12:46] sounds like all is not well with ubuntu forums === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:49] gaah! oga just joined #ubuntu.se :-P [12:49] ? [12:50] I'll better get to bed or something ;-) [12:50] ogre, ogra and oga is one to many ;-) [12:51] ajmitch: morning btw :-P [12:51] hi Nafallo [12:51] ajmitch: my Internet haven't crashed yet :-( [12:51] you own the internet? ;) [12:51] ajmitch: I own my Internet ;-) [12:51] you have your own one? === Nafallo stops highlighting now :-) [12:52] yepp, my own personal Internet :-) [12:52] or... I could have meant my connection to the public one ;-) === Unfrgive1 [n=ankur@202.76.176.94] has joined #ubuntu-motu === macgyver2 [n=eric@unaffiliated/macgyver2] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Leaving"] [12:52] I should install squid, give it 13GB cache and name it "MY INTERNET" :-) [12:53] haha [12:53] I'm gonna call my ISP tomorrow ;-) [12:54] I'm not going to tell them the _real_ reason I'm calling though :-P [12:54] I have _large_ torrents in my queue, but they will have to boost my connection before I start them :-P. [12:54] :P [12:55] <\sh> ok..guys..good night :) cu later this day [12:56] :-) [12:57] hmm [12:57] maybe I should sleep === Nafallo yawns === ajmitch should do more work === Nafallo should do more work when he's awake [12:58] I'm just not sure if there is much left? :-P [12:59] much of what? [12:59] there's still a lot of work to be done on universe [12:59] transitions :-) [01:00] I tried to look a bit yesterday but I only found _big_ downloads with _lots_ of errors ;-) === Nafallo found a dude working as a programmer in #ubuntu.se today ;-) [01:07] I gave him that MOTUWannabeTips-thing :-) === koke [n=koke@adsl229-164.unizar.es] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:11] koke: hi! are you planning to package gnome-torrent for breezy? :-) [01:11] Nafallo, sure, but I want to make it work better first :) === jorgp2 [n=jorgp@bnet-dial-32.bartnet.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === sedak [n=fred@82-32-125-115.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:12] In fact, it has a working debian/ directory [01:12] koke: what are you waiting for then? dput revu :-) [01:13] I want to put some more features before :) [01:13] but... [01:13] why not? :D [01:13] it's better to have something than nothing in breezy ;-) [01:14] atleast if it works atm :-P [01:14] :D [01:14] well, maybe too late for breezy [01:15] I'm getting crazy with this uk keyboard [01:15] heh [01:16] ajmitch: to late for breezy? ;-) === bmonty_laptop [n=bmontgom@wsip-68-15-230-31.om.om.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:16] Nafallo: maybe.. [01:17] koke: when ajmitch say maybe, there is still a pretty good chance ;-) [01:22] haha [01:23] well, now I can do something useful with this laptop (after rsyncing bashrc, vimrc, .ssh, .gnupg,...) :P === Nafallo reloads REVU till koke uploads ;-) [01:26] I don't know my password for REVU [01:26] maybe I don't even have a password [01:26] you just need to be in the keyring to upload :-) [01:28] you don't need to put stuff on REVU, though [01:28] it's just a more convenient place to collect packages [01:29] true [01:30] ...and to review them I might add :-) === jamessan [n=jamessan@c-24-218-220-129.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Valandil [n=chrys@dsl-084-056-101-215.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === doko_ [n=doko@dsl-084-059-067-020.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:00] it's impressive how some people can write run on sentences... which are just broken up... by ellipses... :) === ajmitch will bbl anyway :) === bradb [n=bradb@modemcable033.209-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ogra [n=ogra@p5089FBFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === bddebian [n=bddebian@pcp08717033pcs.phnixv01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:43] Heya gang === wickedpuppy [n=wicked@222.164.164.200] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:01] Shit, gnome-office depends on gnucash.. :'-( [03:06] Oh, it's a recommends === jinty [n=jinty@205.134.224.215] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:15] Grr, this is getting depressing [03:16] why? [03:16] I'm back to not knowing what to do and gnucash is pissing me off :-) [03:16] ah [03:16] that sort of fun [03:18] looks like koke's bt client is getting some exposure on the devel list [03:18] Nice [03:19] Looks like I might be OK with Wesnoth too ;-) [03:19] ajmitch, koke's certainly has it weak points but one window is nicer to multiple torrents [03:19] yeah [03:20] bddebian: you *may* have scraped through [03:20] ajmitch: :-) [03:20] ajmitch: Can you use your magic and find out about xcontrib? [03:21] my magic? [03:21] I have no more magic than anyone else around here [03:21] You always seem to be able to tell me the details about a package that I can't find :-) [03:22] did you upload it? [03:22] It doesn't exist anywhere, including packages.qa.d.o [03:23] right [03:23] and the problem is..? [03:23] xtranslate depends on it [03:24] This is a virtual package. See the Debian policy for a definition of virtual packages. [03:24] Packages providing xcontrib [03:24] xbase-clients miscellaneous X clients [03:24] so find out what xtranslate really depends on [03:24] and fix the depends to that [03:24] See, now how did you find that out??? [03:25] google [03:25] first entry [03:25] Hah, what a dummy :-) [03:26] So whats the best way to find out what xtranslate REALLY depends on? [03:26] look at the package [03:26] I'm looking at it :-) [03:26] the diff.gz is bigger than the tar [03:26] it shouldn't be hard :) [03:27] right, so it uses xmessage [03:27] Yeah, it's a whopping 2 files :-) [03:27] which is in package.. xmessage [03:28] Where did you get xmessage from? [03:28] dlocate -S xmessage [03:28] I looked in the source :P [03:28] It also includes Xlib.h and Xatom.h [03:29] yes [03:29] but it build-deps on xlibs-dev [03:29] which pulls those in [03:29] the runtime depend is in the system() call [03:31] Heh, debmake won't install. Failed dep for ed :-) [03:31] ed? [03:31] oh dear [03:31] ed is in main.. [03:32] for some perverted reason [03:32] Hmm, maybe it's my pbuilder again? Can you install debmake? [03:32] dunno [03:33] works for me [03:33] Yeah, I have it outside of pbuilder too. Damnit :-) [03:34] ubuntu-standard depends on ed [03:36] Nice :) [03:38] ajmitch: Any thoughts/cares about all the mozilla-locale-* packages on unmet deps? [03:38] cares? none [03:39] I couldn't care less if they were taken round the back & shot [03:39] That's what I love about you. Your sweet disposition. ;-) [03:39] :) [03:40] they were probably replaced by something else a long time ago === Arrogance [n=aks@ottawa-hs-209-217-110-25.d-ip.magma.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:40] Exactly. Morgue the fscking things :) [03:40] hey Arrogance === jtan325 [n=jtan325@c-24-22-163-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:44] ajmitch: OK, Mr. Smarty pants, what replaces libxmerl-erlang? [03:47] hey ajmitch [03:50] bddebian: nothing [03:50] it has the same problem in debian [03:50] So fix it ;-) [03:50] http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?popcon=manderlbot [03:50] do you think *anyone* cares about it in ubuntu? [03:51] even my packages have more users! [03:51] hehe [03:51] Hey, I'm just trying to "fix" what's on the list === ajmitch has a package with popcon stats of 3 [03:52] I feel so loved === bddebian hugs ajmitch === marcin_ant [n=marcin@www.e-dev.tele2.pl] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:53] bah [03:53] hi all [03:53] Hello Marce [03:53] Err marcin_ant [03:53] I need some help [03:53] could someone tell me what are *-stamp targets in debian/rules? [03:54] Usually to create files to tell that that part of the process has run already or something like that [03:54] bddebian, I thought so [03:54] bddebian, but how does it work? [03:55] bddebian, do I need to add some specific code to rules file to use these 'stamps' ? [03:55] It just touches *-stamp and creates a file which puts the current date/time stamp on the file. Then it looks for the existence of that file. [03:57] bddebian, so for example if I want to create emacs-snapshot package - and emacs needs to run 'make bootstrap' before any build [03:57] bddebian, than I could use this 'stamp' trick to run 'make bootstrap' only once? [03:57] ubuntu-backports.mirrormax.net is down? [03:58] marcin_ant: I don't think you need to do that. Afaik each section only runs once unless you run it consecutively [03:59] rezound got fixed?? [04:00] bddebian, well it should run once but with rules generated with dh_make build procedure runs twice... first with 'rules/build' and then with 'rules/binary' [04:01] You mean binary: runs build: or build-stamp: ? [04:02] bddebian, well it runs build [04:03] bddebian, and then binary - but binary is binary: binary-arch binary-indep - and then - binary-arch: build-arch install-arch [04:03] You can execute them independently. So "debian/rules build" just runs the build section. "debian/rules binary" runs the binary section which calls the build: section. Does that make sense? [04:04] bddebian, yes it is like you said [04:05] bddebian, and I would like to do something to run 'build' procedure only once [04:05] bddebian, hope that 'stamp' trick will help [04:06] marcin_ant: No, if you run "debian/rules binary", the build: only runs once. === ryanthiessen [n=ryan@168-103-148-90.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:07] bddebian, right but if I run dpkg-buildpackage then it runs 'debian/rules build' and then 'debian/rules binary' - right? [04:07] It shouldn't [04:15] ajmitch: libavcodec2? [04:16] yes? [04:16] NM, gpac doesn't show up in shit either === Sepheebear [n=SepheeBe@cpe-68-175-56-52.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === bddebian has no fscking idea what he is doing [04:28] still wondering about the stamp files? [04:28] bmonty_laptop: No, trying to build a libpgtcl package from upstream :-) [04:29] bmonty_laptop, well not [04:29] bmonty_laptop, I think I know how it works [04:29] bmonty_laptop, but need to wait for a while to be 100% sure [04:30] marcin_ant: you know how make decides to build a target, right? [04:30] bmonty_laptop, uhm [04:34] marcin_ant: check the make documentation for how it decides to build targets, the stamp files will make sense :) [04:35] wonderful changelog entry by mjg59 [04:35] * Add sick evil code for doing sick evil things to sick evil [04:35] screensavers [04:36] heh [04:38] hehe, that looks like one of mine :-) [04:38] bmonty_laptop, well I don't see anything about stamps in make manual [04:39] Anyone have the patience of a saint and want to help me package something? [04:40] marcin_ant: they are taking advantage of the date/time on the file [04:40] bmonty_laptop, ok but how is it related with make? [04:41] since the rules file is a makefile [04:41] bmonty_laptop, ok but there is nothing about stamp files in make documentation (or I'm blind) [04:41] bddebian: I'm not a saint, and I probably can't help, but I'll try [04:42] marcin_ant: you are probably right, look at the parts about how make checks the date/time of a source file to decide if the compiler needs to run, stamp files are the same idea [04:43] I'm trying to build libpgtcl from upstream. I have the framework and it "builds" but I don't think it's actually doing anything :-) [04:44] bmonty_laptop, hmm ok but this 'stamp' magic goes mostly from some debian helpers than from make - right? [04:46] I don't think so [04:53] bmonty_laptop, you are right [04:53] bmonty_laptop, it's make feature === [Chameleon] [n=Paul@000f660c9c52.click-network.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jinty [n=jinty@205.134.224.215] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Leaving"] === Sepheebear [n=SepheeBe@cpe-68-175-56-52.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:06] What does the $(CURDIR)/debian/tmp/usr in $(MAKE) do for me? === tritium [n=michael@pcp0011975002pcs.sandia01.nm.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:11] Heya tritium [05:11] hi bddebian [05:11] How are you? [05:12] Not too bad, thanks. You? [05:12] Not too bad, thanks. [05:14] hello tritium [05:14] good night all [05:15] Gnight bmonty_laptop [05:15] hi ajmitch :) [05:15] yay, patching c# apps is so fun [05:16] Heh [05:17] So if I just have "$(MAKE) install prefix=$(CURDIR)/debian/tmp/usr in rules, what should I do to move the library produced to /usr/lib/ ? [05:17] bddebian: DESTDIR, not prefix [05:17] Hey, dh_make did that :-) === Firetech [n=Firetech@h53n1fls301o1100.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:17] and it should be $(CURDIR)/debian/tmp, I think [05:18] when using DESTDIR [05:18] bddebian: you haven't done a package from scratch before, have you? [05:18] Nope [05:18] Well kind of but never a library [05:19] explains a bit :) [05:19] Thanks, as always, for your loving support [05:19] no problem [05:23] So would you like to help me instead of just laughing at me? [05:23] I'm not laughing at you [05:23] I was giving you tips for a reason [05:28] Well I don't exactly know what to do with DESDIR :-( It isn't in the NM Guide either :-( [05:28] perhaps I'm too old fashioned :P [05:30] nah [05:30] Too old fashioned for what? [05:30] just checked, cdbs does use DESTDIR as it should [05:31] why is it hard for you to use DESTDIR? [05:31] I didn't say it was, I just don't know what to do with it [05:32] stick it in debian/rules [05:33] No shit, where? :-) === ajmitch looks around for a brick wall [05:33] on the make install line.. [05:34] OK, I know that too but how? [05:34] did I not say before? [05:34] DESTDIR, not prefix [05:34] so you write.. [05:35] $(MAKE) install DESTDIR=$(CURDIR)/debian/tmp [05:35] That's what I was asking, thank you. [05:44] It didn't put it in /usr/lib [05:47] ajmitch: ^^ [05:49] where did it put it? [05:50] afaict: /home/bdefreese/devel/pgtcl/libpgtcl-1.5/libpgtcl1.5/debian/tmp/usr/lib/pgtcl1.5/ [05:50] yes, that's right [05:50] what's wrong with that? [05:51] Uhm, it's supposed to go to /usr/lib [05:51] stuff should *never* end up in /usr/lib or similar places until the package is installed [05:51] right? [05:51] This is after dpkg -i *.deb [05:51] right [05:51] so you have something rather screwy :) [05:51] dpkg-deb -c package.deb [05:52] you're using dh_install? [05:52] It ain't in there :-( [05:53] which means that you're not installing it at all [05:53] Aye [05:53] because you don't have dh_install setup to grab the files from debian/tmp [05:53] Aye. Do I just need dh_install or some params? [05:53] you've probably seen a few hundred packages as an example by now [05:59] It's still not there :-( === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@adsl-69-109-20-32.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:47] heh sorry to bother but new question to you guys [06:48] I'm trying to build some package (emacs... ) and I got millions of warnings like this one "pointer targets in passing argument 1 of strlen differ in signedness [06:48] " [06:49] how to get rid of these warnings in make output? === jtan325 [n=jtan325@c-24-22-163-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:51] marcin_ant: fix the source ;) [06:52] they're gcc warnings because the source needs to be fixed up [06:52] ajmitch, well I know but I don't know how [06:52] why do you worry about them? [06:52] ajmitch, and I really don't want to touch emacs 'core' [06:52] hiding the compiler warnings isn't really a great idea [06:52] ajmitch, I don't worry at all - they just annoying - thousands of them === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:53] ajmitch, ok - but is it possible? [06:53] probably by passing the appropriate -W flags to gcc [06:55] ajmitch, ehh I've been trying but don't know which flags [06:55] ajmitch, anyway I'll try to live with these warnings... === izaac [n=izaac@unaffiliated/izaac] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:13] hi jsgotangco [07:14] how are you? [07:14] hi ajmitch [07:27] ajmitch, not bad just testing the laptop now, i've seen improvements in hibernate/suspend in my unit after the update === dholbach [i=foobar@i577B0D74.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:27] good morning === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@adsl-69-109-20-32.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has left #ubuntu-motu [] === BeerDump [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Yagisan [n=jamie@220-244-253-135-nsw-pppoe.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-motu === BeerDump [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:46] morning dholbach! [07:46] morning andrew [07:46] :) [07:48] how are you? === ajmitch decided to go on a cleanup & recovered about 40-50GB of diskspace [07:49] nearly all of it was old ubuntu source unpacked, or debs [07:50] wow... i could do that too :) [07:50] i'm fine [07:50] need to get another coffee, but fine [07:50] went through bugzilla open bugs < 7000 yesterday :) [07:50] you closed 7000 bugs? ;) [07:51] i should have ;) [07:51] have you inherited the ubuntu bugmaster title now? [07:51] i was not as overenthusiastic as the ubuntu bug day crew :) [07:51] not really :) [07:51] *over*enthusiastic? [07:51] are you suggesting they closed things that should have stayed open? [07:52] "reporter inactive - closing" :) [07:52] *cough*okwithme*cough* === MagnusR [n=magru@85.194.14.142] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:52] hehe [07:52] > 3 months open.. [07:53] *nod* [07:53] the times when I did that, I checked that the bug was closed [07:53] sometimes we need to purge old bugs :) [07:53] hihi === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-motu === tritium [n=michael@pcp0011975002pcs.sandia01.nm.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === tritium [n=michael@pcp0011975002pcs.sandia01.nm.comcast.net] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Leaving"] === jorgp2 [n=jorgp@bnet-dial-32.bartnet.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === mitsuhiko [n=chatzill@iserver.borg-hermagor.asn-ktn.ac.at] has joined #ubuntu-motu [08:10] hey mitsuhiko, how are you? [08:10] dholbach: fine [08:10] although i'm at school there's nothing to do :) [08:10] I'm playing fileserver ^^ [08:10] :) [08:10] what happened to your MOTU plans? ;) [08:11] s/me/notebook [08:11] dholbach: ubuntuusers is atm to much work [08:11] so i would be a lacy motu [08:11] but still on the todo list :) [08:11] i see [08:11] how is ubuntu users going? [08:12] i guess we should do some community recruiting amongst those users - what do you think? [08:12] dholbach: hm. atm we're switching to moinmoin [08:13] dholbach: you can join the community and ask for help ^^ [08:13] maybe we should raise awareness of MOTU/translators/doc-tea/artwork-team, ... [08:13] yeah. atm there is to few publicity [08:14] maybe we should do something like the MOTU report [08:15] a community report, which is translated into the different languages [08:15] i'm quite sure, that'd make great gthings happen [08:15] yeah. but therefore you need a functional docteam ^^ [08:15] mitsuhiko, we do [08:15] it's always work [08:15] but i think it'd be worth it [08:16] i write the motu report every month [08:16] dholbach: as a kind of blog? [08:16] which we appreciate [08:16] mitsuhiko: on the users and devel mailing list [08:17] mitsuhiko: but you're right, maybe i should just blog it next time [08:17] mitsuhiko: do you think lots of people read planet.ubuntu ? [08:17]