[12:02] <Keybuk> gah
[12:02] <Keybuk> can you do me a favour
[12:02] <Keybuk> move /etc/rcS.d/S20syslog up to something like /etc/rcS.d/S10syslog  (it's fine here, but no earlier)
[12:02] <Keybuk> and try again
[12:02] <Keybuk> want to see the point at which udev is starting on your system
[12:02] <Keybuk> but so far, this is _interesting_
[12:03] <mdz> Keybuk: I did that the first time you asked
[12:03] <Keybuk> S10 or S20?
[12:03] <mdz> ah, 20
[12:03] <Keybuk> yeah, make it S10 now
[12:03] <mdz> from 2/10 to S/20
[12:03] <Keybuk> yeah, now make it S/10
[12:04] <mdz> I heard you
[12:04] <mdz> you realize I'm never going to be able to reproduce it again
[12:04] <mdz> EVAR
[12:04] <Keybuk> I have faith in you
[12:04] <mjg59> I have a horrible headache
[12:04] <mdz> mjg59: try udev debugging
[12:05] <mdz> Keybuk: why is it that I see SCSI init happening while udevstart is running at S04?
[12:05] <mjg59> mdz: I'm fixing crack-addled ATI chipset bugs
[12:05] <mjg59> FOR YOU
[12:05] <mdz> aw, you shouldn't have
[12:05] <Keybuk> mdz: initramfs kicked it off
[12:05] <mjg59> Actually, that's a lie
[12:06] <mjg59> I've finished that now
[12:06] <Keybuk> and there's a massive great sleep() in a kernel thread
[12:06] <mjg59> I'm fixing ndiswrapper on amd64 instead
[12:06] <mjg59> FEEL MY PAIN
[12:06] <jbailey> mjg59: The kernel loads 32 bit ndis drivers?
[12:06] <Keybuk> Sep 20 14:43:05 (none) udevd[5231] : udevd.c: seq 945 queued, devpath '/module/pcspkr'
[12:06] <Keybuk> Sep 20 14:43:05 (none) udevd[5231] : udevd.c: seq 946 queued, devpath '/class/input/event3'
[12:06] <Keybuk> ... why is mdz's PC speaker an input device? :p
[12:06] <mdz> wouldn't you like to know
[12:07] <mjg59> jbailey: No, 64 bit ones
[12:07] <jbailey> mjg59: Oh good. =)
[12:07] <mjg59> (brr)
[12:07] <mdz> mjg59: why are you going anywhere near ndiswrapper?
[12:07] <Keybuk> mmm, driver-thunking
[12:07] <Keybuk> we haven't had that since Win32s
[12:07] <mjg59> mdz: Because everyone ships amd64 laptops with Broadcom shit
[12:08] <mdz> Keybuk: have you tried reproducing this by unloading everything and running the m-i-t and hotplug init scripts a lot?
[12:08] <Keybuk> yup
[12:09] <Keybuk> I don't quite understand it, but I think it has something to do with whether the event from the kernel comes via /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug or netlink
[12:09] <Keybuk> I've got more kernel code to read in bed tonight
[12:09] <mdz> what is it that input does wrong?
[12:09] <Keybuk> some machines luck out one way more than others
[12:09] <Keybuk> builds a hotplug event by hand in a big string buffer and pokes things manually
[12:09] <Keybuk> rather than using things like kobject_add() and kobject_hotplug() and stuff
[12:09] <Keybuk> (ie doesn't use the new kernel driver core)
[12:09] <mdz> NICE
[12:10] <Keybuk> there then appear to be two ways hotplug events happen
[12:10] <mdz> whycome we never saw this in hoary?
[12:10] <Nafallo> mjg59: while you get your hands dirty, could you package that modem-daemon-thingie that's only for 32-bit but exist for 64-bit upstream aswell? ;-)
[12:11] <Keybuk> one is through this evil hack, that udev refuses to take part in
[12:11] <Keybuk> and thus no input/mice, psaux, js0, js1, etc.
[12:11] <Keybuk> and the other which works
[12:11] <Keybuk> and I haven't found the one that works in the kernel yet
[12:11] <Keybuk> which is worrying me
[12:11] <mjg59> Nafallo: SA:LKJEAR
[12:11] <mjg59> Nafallo: (Not today)
[12:11] <mjg59> Today I finish kernel stuff and am then happy
[12:11] <Nafallo> mjg59: oki ;-)
[12:13] <mdz> Keybuk: no joy
[12:13] <Keybuk> mdz: in hoary, if udev doesn't get everything from the kernel it was expecting, it manually fired up hotplug instead
[12:14] <ogra> mjg59, what do you fix there ? i ususally just add the arch to the ndiswrapper control file and thats it ... i imagine its not done much different in our packaging...
[12:14] <mdz> Keybuk: well heck
[12:14] <Keybuk> which was sufficient, but all that code is stripped out of udev now and slimmed down to "be ultimate"
[12:14] <mjg59> ogra: In the kernel tree
[12:14] <Keybuk> mdz: reboot a few more times <g>
[12:15] <mdz> there are all sorts of niggly race-inducing things in this setup
[12:15] <mdz> external USB CD writer, finicky NIC/hub combination that sometimes takes twice as long to init
[12:15] <ogra> mjg59, hrm... 
[12:15] <sivang> I'm hitting bed, night everyone
[12:16] <Nafallo> silbs: don't hurt it!
[12:16] <Nafallo> sivang: ^
[12:16] <Nafallo> :-)
[12:16] <Nafallo> gnight :-)
[12:17] <sivang> Nafallo: lol , sure I wont
[12:17] <ogra> mjg59, if you need a guinea pig, i have a ndiswrapper based card here on amd64
[12:18] <mjg59> ogra: So do I :)
[12:19] <ogra> ah, i forgot, you built your home of laptops
[12:19] <ogra> :)
[12:19] <Nafallo> lol
[12:20] <Keybuk> mdz: we love races
[12:21] <mdz> Keybuk: reboot-until-mice-goes-missing loop  initiated
[12:21] <Keybuk> udev is a bit like schumacher, it usually wins except when it doesn't and has to have someone pull over and let it go past
[12:21] <mdz> I'll unplug and plug the CD writer a few times during the udev storm for good measure
[12:21] <HrdwrBoB> is there an acpi race on suspend resume when opening the lid, because sometimes it locks... and sometimes it doesn't
[12:23] <jbailey> Can we add 6.04 to the bugzilla milestone list?  It would be nice to send away bugs that won't get fixed for 5.10
[12:24] <Keybuk> shouldn't that be the Malone milestone list? *ducks*
[12:24] <zyga> what is the next ubuntu codename?
[12:24] <tseng> zyga: dapper drake.
[12:25] <jbailey> zyga: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=350378
[12:25] <jdub> jbailey: one sec
[12:25] <zyga> hmm
[12:25] <jbailey> zyga: (For the full announcement)
[12:25] <Keybuk> tseng: or, as we like to call it, "vera"
[12:25] <zyga> that's two words, which is used for short form?
[12:25] <jbailey> Does Anybody Here Remember Vera Lynn?
[12:25] <mdz> Keybuk: it's been through about 20 cycles with no hint of it ever happening again
[12:26] <mdz> moving syslog CURSED it
[12:26] <zyga> ah, dapper it is then
[12:26] <mjg59> `/win 26
[12:26] <Keybuk> mjg59: /lose 20
[12:26] <tseng> Keybuk++
[12:27] <sladen> jbailey: oh 'Lynn, yeah, remember her
[12:27] <Keybuk> mdz: I do hope the time between S04 and S20 doesn't have a bearing on it
[12:27] <mjg59> sladen: Any joy with the Thinkpad recovery partition?
[12:27] <jdub> jbailey: done
[12:27] <jbailey> jdub: Merci!
[12:28] <Keybuk> because I can't see anything interesting in that set that should affect it
[12:28] <sladen> mjg59: works for me(tm).  I can't get it back into a position where it doesn't boot them
[12:28] <Keybuk> and S04udev should be "FINISHED" when it exits and not doing shit in the backgroun
[12:28] <ajmitch> jbailey: trying to get everyone speaking some french before UBZ? :)
[12:28] <mjg59> sladen: Right. In that case, could you possibly dump a copy of your partition table and grub config and try another install?
[12:28] <Keybuk> nom de dieu la udev putain
[12:29] <Keybuk> udev, c'est d'encule de ta mere!
[12:31] <jbailey> ajmitch: *lol*
[12:31] <jbailey> ajmitch: The two languages sort of blurr together for me sometimes. =)
[12:32] <jbailey> Keybuk: REmember you're ordering *poutine* here, not *putain*.
[12:32] <Keybuk> that's a food isn't it?
[12:32] <sladen> mjg59: the installer will just read the current copy of the partition table.  A better approach is probably for me to make it look like other people's installed results.  Do you have the bug # agian?
[12:33] <pitti> good night everybody
[12:33] <mjg59> sladen: Not off-hand, I'm afraid
[12:34] <sladen> mjg59: annoying.  I was reading it earlier today..
[12:34] <Keybuk> mdz: I'm thinking ... you managed it when your filesystem needed checking
[12:35] <Keybuk> which adds time between S04 and S20 for things to settle
[12:35] <Keybuk> (as that happens at S10)
[12:35] <Keybuk> maybe it's _more_ time that causes it, not less
[12:39] <mdz> Keybuk: my loop includes a reboot -f ;-)
[12:40] <Keybuk> heh
[12:41] <mdz> this loop seems pretty hopeless though
[12:43] <Keybuk> right
[12:43] <Keybuk> it's no problem, just send me a syslog when it does fail
[12:53] <mdz> Keybuk: it didn't need checking, just a journal replay
[12:53] <mdz> so the delay was at the point of mounting the root fs from initramfs
[12:53] <Keybuk> *nods*
[01:00] <Keybuk> mdz: could you ... gunzip -c /boot/initrd.img-`uname -r` | cpio -t | grep input
[01:03] <mdz> Keybuk: just usbhid.ko and etc/udev/scripts/inputdev.sh
[01:04] <Keybuk> there's something very VERY interesting in your syslog
[01:04] <Keybuk> more interesting than the error
[01:04] <mdz> oh?
[01:04] <Keybuk> all your class/input events have sequence numbers
[01:04] <Keybuk> EXCEPT the one I'm assuming is for /dev/input/mice
[01:05] <Keybuk> the kernel doesn't produce sequence numbers for input events
[01:05] <Keybuk> udevstart does though ...
[01:07] <Keybuk> maybe on most people's machines, the events that bring up /dev/input/* aren't coming from the kernel
[01:07] <mrd`> I reported bug #11735 (bswap_32 in /usr/include/bits/byteswap.h isn't optimized on athlon) and it was closed; however, the fix does not appear to have been included in any recent glibc updates.
[01:07] <Keybuk> #14941 proves the kernel can't generate input hotplug events to save its life
[01:07] <mdz> is there anything else out there which runs udevstart?
[01:08] <mdz> *somthing* is poking udev to create those device nodes; what if not the kernel?
[01:08] <mrd`> I've replied to the bug on bugzilla asking about this and also emailed Jeff Bailey (the one who closed it), but have received no reply.
[01:08] <mdz> something, even
[01:08] <Keybuk> yup, it's very spooky
[01:08] <Keybuk> there's an alien in your box generating udev events <g>
[01:08] <mdz> Keybuk: so we're back at "this can't possibly work in the first place"?
[01:08] <Keybuk> ones that are better formed than the kernel
[01:08] <Keybuk> yes
[01:09] <Keybuk> we know ANY udev event generated by the kernel doesn't work
[01:09] <mdz> Keybuk: psmouse still gets loaded after I remove it from /etc/modules; what's doing that?
[01:09] <Keybuk> you can prove this by leaving your input device unplugged and plugging it after boot
[01:10] <Keybuk> it does?!  bwaaaaaaah
[01:10] <Keybuk> maybe /etc/hotplug/input.rc (from S:S40hotplug)
[01:11] <mdz> not unless it shows up in /proc first, by my reading
[01:11] <Keybuk> yup, something is starting the input subsystem
[01:12] <Keybuk> probably kbd <g>
[01:12] <Keybuk> which we haven't yet managed to get into a module ... but I'm sure it'll happen eventually
[01:15] <mdz> Keybuk: psmouse isn't even in modules.inputmap
[01:15] <mdz> oh, mousedev probably loads it
[01:15] <Keybuk> *nods*
[01:15] <mdz> does this mean we can drop this /etc/modules special-casing now?
[01:16] <mdz> now
[01:16] <mdz> now ==  post-breezy
[01:16] <Keybuk> I think so
[01:16] <Keybuk> mousedev would still need to be there, because X is the suck
[01:16] <Keybuk> hmm, modprobe mousedev doesn't give me psmouse
[01:17] <mdz> mousedev gets loaded automatically for me
[01:17] <mdz> and psmouse
[01:17] <Keybuk> mousedev should generally get loaded by input.rc
[01:17] <mdz> this laptop has a trackpoint and a synaptics touchpad
[01:19] <mdz> yeah, mousedev gets loaded by input.rc here
[01:20] <mdz> ah
[01:20] <mdz> isapnp loads psmouse
[01:20] <mdz> I don't think we need /etc/modules at all anymore
[01:21] <Keybuk> it amazes me just how many times we try and load all these things during boot, and we still have problems with things not being loaded <g>
[01:26] <mdz> Keybuk: so is it possible that hotplug's coldplugging is faking an event to udev?
[01:26] <Keybuk> no, we're way too early in the boot process for this
[01:27] <Keybuk> and hotplug doesn't fake udev events in breezy, it just does things by hand with grepmap
[01:27] <wasabi_> Hmmm.
[01:27] <wasabi_> We don' thave an RDP client that does audio forwarding do we?
[01:27] <Keybuk> this seqnum thing is bugging me ... why do your events have them, except the one that fails (which is clearly from the kernel)
[01:27] <Keybuk> where do the other events come from?
[01:27] <Keybuk> it's not udevstart ... udevstart runs udev directly, not udevd
[01:27] <Keybuk> something is managing to create udev events, with valid sequence numbers, for the input subsystem
[01:28] <Keybuk> and it's not the input subsystem
[01:28] <Keybuk> it's almost as if this thing is generating all these events, and the input subsystem goes "oh, and this" and tosses in the /dev/input/mice event
[01:29] <Keybuk> where on my log I just see the generated events for everything, _including_ /dev/input/mice
[01:29] <mdz> Keybuk: what is udev's inputdev.sh supposed to do?
[01:30] <mdz> oh
[01:30] <Keybuk> looks for a device of a given name
[01:31] <Keybuk> you can use it to name things
[01:31] <mrd`> Should I just report my glibc bug to Debian and hope they fix it?
[01:31] <mdz> mrd`: if you've read the package changelog and confirmed that there is a mistake, then the correct course of action is to reopen the bug in bugzilla.
[01:32] <mrd`> mdz: I did.
[01:32] <mrd`> I have also emailed the bug closer directly to no avail.
[01:32] <mdz> mrd`: then you did the right thing already, thank you.
[01:32] <mrd`> mdz: But it's not fixed.
[01:32] <mdz> mrd`: that's why the bug is open
[01:32] <mdz> it isn't fixed *yet*
[01:33] <Keybuk> oh, now that's kinda interesting
[01:33] <mrd`> The page reads "Resolution: FIXED".  Does that mean something different than I think it does?
[01:33] <mdz> mrd`: errr
[01:33] <Keybuk> in a very clean system, I did modprobe mousedev after making sure udevd hadn't started yet
[01:33] <mdz> mrd`: I just looked at the bug, and it is not reopened
[01:33] <Keybuk> two different events happened at the same time
[01:33] <Keybuk> so udevd tried to get started twice
[01:33] <mdz> mrd`: it has never been reopened
[01:34] <mdz> mrd`: therefore you did not reopen it
[01:34] <mrd`> mdz: I never said I reopened it.
 mrd`: if you've read the package changelog and confirmed that there is a mistake, then the correct course of action is to reopen the bug in bugzilla.
 mdz: I did.
[01:34] <mrd`> mdz: I said I was trying to figure out what's going on.
[01:34] <mrd`> Oh.
[01:34] <mrd`> I'm sorry, I read "reopen" as "reply to".
[01:36] <mrd`> mdz: Reopenned.  Thanks for the help, and sorry for the misunderstanding.
[01:52] <mdz> elmo: what is with workrave coming up even when you're typing now?  is it only me?
[01:54] <Keybuk> . o O { do selinux people ever TEST their code ?! }
[01:56] <elmo> mdz: ah, I'm not sure - I've gotten into the habit of managing to pretend like workrave doesn't exist despite it running and whining at me lots
[01:56] <mdz> elmo: used to be that the small window would come up, but would eventually go away if you kept typing
[01:56] <mdz> elmo: now, the actual rest break / micro break window seems to come up and block keystrokes
[01:57] <stub> Ohh... shiny. The workrave lock-button-doesn't-work bug has been fixed by removing the button? Or is that a side effect from something else?
[01:57] <mdz> stub: that's gnome-screensaver
[01:57] <mdz> stub: dist-upgrade
[01:57] <ajmitch> Keybuk: how bad is it?
[01:58] <Keybuk> ajmitch: just found a bug where udev won't compile -DDEBUG because of a botched selinux dbg() call :p
[01:58] <Keybuk> reminded me of when manoj wrote all the code for dpkg selinux, declared it worked perfectly
[01:58] <elmo> mdz: ah, yeah, I think I've seen that
[01:58] <Keybuk> and then we noticed he'd written it in a file that's not even linked in
[02:00] <mdz> elmo: something up with the i386 buildd by any chance?  http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/u/ubuntu-meta/0.74/
[02:00] <mdz> it built everywhere else hours ago
[02:01] <mdz> stub: it's not going to fix thinsg yet unless you're on amd64, powerpc or ia64 (you need ubuntu-desktop 0.74)
[02:01] <elmo> mdz: oo2 x 2 and a broken one
[02:01] <mdz> x2?
[02:01] <elmo> for like 5 days
[02:01] <elmo> mdz: oo2 and oo2-l10n at a guess
[02:02] <elmo> (5 days == broken one)
[02:02] <mdz> -l10n doesn't actually build the thing, does it?
[02:02] <Keybuk> ok, so here's my working hypothesis ... the first module to be loaded is "mousedev", which causes TWO udev events, "/module/mousedev" and "/class/input/mice", both delivered through the /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug interface.
[02:03] <Keybuk> Both these events cause udevsend to be started, both of which try to start udevd as it's not yet running; both udevd try to bind to the event socket, one succeeds and takes the event, the other fails
[02:03] <Keybuk> the one that fails will exit with an error code, which will cause the udevsend to fallback and run udev by hand
[02:04] <elmo> mdz: rothera unblocked; i386 should catch up over the next hour
[02:04] <mdz> elmo: thanks
[02:04] <elmo> I mailed lamont/infinity about tracing down the source build that caused the hang; I'm too busy/lazy to do that
[02:04] <Keybuk> this somehow causes a later event to move from the magic-udev-event-generator-I-haven't-found-yet to the input subsystem
[02:05] <Keybuk> udev rejects events from the input subsystem as a matter of course
[02:05] <Keybuk> ergo no /dev/input/mice
[02:05] <Keybuk> I now need to fill in the hand-waving in the middle, and work out what to fix :p
[02:21] <sebest> lathiat: around?
[02:25] <shackan> ouch, firefox randomly dying :\
[02:25] <sebest> shackan, me too :s
[02:26] <lathiat> sebest: yeh
[02:26] <sebest> random segV
[02:27] <sebest> lathiat, i just wanted to ask you if 855resolution start prio was fixed, and if it now works for suspend/resume, because before it fails because the vga bios wasn't patch on resume so X failed to resume
[02:27] <lathiat> no idea
[02:27] <lathiat> did you file a bug?
[02:28] <sebest> the bug was already filled on malone (except the suspend resume issue)
[02:29] <sebest> do you know how resume works? does it execute some init.d script, or only use an initrd?
[02:30] <mjg59> resume from what? RAM or disk?
[02:32] <sebest> mjg59: from disk
[02:33] <mjg59> sebest: The initramfs loads modules for the disk controller and then resumes
[02:33] <mjg59> Execution resumes in the suspend script just after the suspend
[02:33] <sebest> mjg59: because here the is that 855resolution is not called on resum (seems)
[02:34] <mjg59> sebest: No, there's no infrastructure for it to be
[02:34] <sebest> mjg59: would it be possible?
[02:34] <sebest> or is not necessary?
[02:34] <mjg59> It's on my todo list
[02:35] <sebest> great because 855resolution was the only thing missing for full support of the dell X1
[02:35] <mjg59> But somewhere above there is "Get hold of the code that means we don't need to use 855resolution"
[02:36] <sebest> this code should be in the i810 driver maybe?
[02:37] <mjg59> Yes
[02:37] <mjg59> This code exists
[02:38] <sebest> it must detect the native screen resolution and patch the vga bios , to make the chipset support this resolution i guess
[02:38] <mjg59> Yes, that's exactly what it does
[02:38] <mjg59> If you go to http://www.fairlite.demon.co.uk/intel.html you can get a copy of the driver that includes it
[02:38] <mjg59> Put that in /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/drivers/
[02:40] <sebest> talking about chipset and laptop, one great addition for dapper would be have better support for external display, because the i810 driver works really great for this (Lcd, crt, dfp tv), maybe by defining good X layouts
[02:40] <sebest> but i don't know if it's possible to switch X layouts on the fly?
[02:40] <mjg59> X is poor in this respect
[02:40] <mjg59> i810 especially so
[02:42] <sebest> but everything is functionnal for me: external vga and Tv (s-vhs) with i810
[02:42] <sebest> just have to restart X to select the good layout :s
[02:44] <sebest> talking about this: i855-crt and i810 switch doesn't work at all for external display where i810 driver works well for cloning and Xinerama.
[02:44] <sebest> Maybe a first good speed would be to default the configuration to Clone mode, usefull for doing presentation with video projectors
[02:47] <Keybuk> mjg59: just this one? :p
[02:49] <mjg59> Keybuk: Mm?
[02:49] <Keybuk> X being poor
[02:49] <mjg59> Ha
[02:49] <mjg59> It's one of the biggest ones it's poor in
[02:51] <Keybuk> right, bed; I'm not going to solve this tonight
[02:52] <sebest> i was also about to start working on this issue, but it's too late :p
[02:52] <lathiat> you know whatd be ncie
[02:52] <lathiat> if X fails to start
[02:52] <lathiat> and the config hasn't been modified
[02:52] <lathiat> regenerate it and try again
[02:53] <sebest> what would be really nice, is not having a config file
[02:54] <sebest> i meann, we only have to store things like default resol/color, keymap and thats all, everything else should be detected like "xorg -configure" is able to do it
[02:54] <lathiat> sebest: then how would you configure things ;)
[02:55] <sebest> most of the time when it fail to start, it's because you changed the screen or the video card
[02:57] <sebest> Btw i thought that X was able to start with no xorg.conf, it was on of the feature of Xfree 4.3/4.4 ?
[03:05] <sebest> lathiat: this is what i'm talking about:
[03:05] <sebest> http://www.xfree86.org/4.5.0/RELNOTES2.html#2
[03:05] <sebest> (i know xorg != xfree86)
[03:07] <sebest> and this "-appendauto" is that you can let some part autodected on each boot, and freeze some others (like keyboard keymap)
[03:25] <bob2> fabbione: my hoary router seems to stop routing ipv6 packets after a little while
[03:26] <lathiat> bob2: mine works fine
[03:26] <lathiat> altho it is breezy now, worked fine when it was hoary
[03:27] <bob2> floods of "Sep 21 11:26:55 localhost kernel: icmpv6_send: no reply to icmp error" while ping6'ing www.kame.net
[03:28] <wasabi> During this freeze is main only frozen or universe too?
[03:28] <lathiat> ugly
[03:28] <lathiat> wasabi: well, universe is sloshier than main 
[03:32] <elmo> doko_: ?
[03:33] <bddebian> Hey
[03:33] <wasabi> So what are the criteria? I'd like a new version of nss-updatedb
[03:33] <bddebian> Oh
[03:33] <wasabi> It just needs a Debian merge is all.
[03:33] <crimsun> a merge or a Debian sync?
[03:33] <wasabi> sync.
[03:34] <crimsun> just ask for it :)
[03:34] <wasabi> Is it okay to do?
[03:34] <crimsun> if you think it's necessary, just ask elmo for it
[03:34] <wasabi> I could do it myself I suspect, just don't want to get shot. ;)
[03:34] <wasabi> Or not.
[03:37] <Keybuk> Sep 20 20:13:57 (none) udevd[5027] : udevd.c: udevd event message received
[03:37] <Keybuk> Sep 20 20:13:57 (none) udevd[5027] : get_udevd_msg: envbuf_size=124
[03:37] <Keybuk> Sep 20 20:13:57 (none) udevd[5027] : get_msg_from_envbuf: add 'HOME=/' to msg.envp[0] 
[03:37] <Keybuk> Sep 20 20:13:57 (none) udevd[5027] : get_msg_from_envbuf: add 'PATH=/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin' to msg.envp[1] 
[03:37] <Keybuk> Sep 20 20:13:57 (none) udevd[5027] : get_msg_from_envbuf: add 'ACTION=add' to msg.envp[2] 
[03:37] <Keybuk> Sep 20 20:13:57 (none) udevd[5027] : get_msg_from_envbuf: add 'DEVPATH=/class/input/mice' to msg.envp[3] 
[03:37] <Keybuk> Sep 20 20:13:57 (none) udevd[5027] : get_msg_from_envbuf: add 'SUBSYSTEM=input' to msg.envp[4] 
[03:37] <Keybuk> Sep 20 20:13:57 (none) udevd[5027] : get_msg_from_envbuf: add 'SEQNUM=856' to msg.envp[5] 
[03:37] <Keybuk> Sep 20 20:13:57 (none) udevd[5027] : get_msg_from_envbuf: add 'MAJOR=13' to msg.envp[6] 
[03:37] <Keybuk> Sep 20 20:13:57 (none) udevd[5027] : get_msg_from_envbuf: add 'MINOR=63' to msg.envp[7] 
[03:37] <Keybuk> Sep 20 20:13:57 (none) udevd[5027] : main: skip uevent_helper message, netlink is active
[03:37] <Keybuk> MOTHER FUCKER
[03:37] <bddebian> Such language :-)
[03:38] <desrt> everyone, quick!!!
[03:38] <desrt> check your trash icon
[03:38] <Keybuk> (translation: "I'm going to ignore this event because I can get better events from elsewhere")
[03:38] <desrt> i bet it's full even if it's empty
[03:38] <mjg59> I hear Scott loves life
[03:39] <desrt> eh.  no more or less than the rest of us?
[03:40] <mjg59> Well, I no longer need to worry about the kernel
[03:40] <mjg59> So life is good!
[03:40] <Keybuk> so, basically, udevd has to receive the input event _before_ any netlink event otherwise it'll ignore it
[03:40] <Keybuk> and parport_pc generates a netlink event
[03:41] <Keybuk> so if the time to begin loading mousedev and psmouse is longer than the time it takes to load parport_pc ... you're doomed
[03:42] <mdz> Keybuk: garrrr
[03:42] <mjg59> I think udev is the BEST SOFTWARE EVER
[03:43] <Keybuk> this isn't really udev's fault
[03:43] <Keybuk> it's the kernel's for not doing input udev/hotplug events properly
[03:43] <Keybuk> if it did them the same way as everything else, we could get all our events over the netlink socket and not worry about a thing
[03:45] <mdz> Keybuk: why does it ignore the input event when netlink is active?
[03:46] <mdz> it looks like it received a complete, valid event and threw it away
[03:46] <Keybuk> because it ignores all "kernelish" events generated by udevsend once it has a netlink event
[03:46] <Keybuk> that's exactly what it did
[03:46] <mdz> but why?
[03:46] <Keybuk> because it figures the kernel will send the same event over the netlink socket any second
[03:46] <Keybuk> but this is the input subsystem, so it doesn't
[03:46] <mdz> oh, the kernel sends both types of events for most devicesL
[03:46] <mdz> ?
[03:46] <Keybuk> yup
[03:47] <mdz> tin cups and string, I tell ye
[03:47] <Keybuk> right, now I just need to make sure I can replicate this on my machine
[03:48] <lifeless> eww
[03:49] <lifeless> tin cups and string are more reliable
[03:52] <bddebian> elmo: Am I on the shitlist?
[03:52] <Chipzz> I'm not sure if this question is appropriate here, but I was wondering something
[03:53] <mdz> bddebian: if not, asking pointless questions is a good step toward elmo's shitlist ;-)
[03:53] <Chipzz> would an environment setup with debootstrap --variant=buildd actually be bootable/usable as a minimal system?
[03:53] <Keybuk> sweeeeeet
[03:53] <bddebian> mdz: Well I asked about a sync of sylpheed twice now and I don't want to be more of a PITA than I already am so if I'm on the shitlist for wesnoth, I'll shutup :-)
[03:54] <Keybuk> init=/bin/sh ... load parport_pc and lp ... wait for settle ... load m
[03:54] <Keybuk> psmouse
[03:54] <Keybuk> no /dev/input
[03:56] <Chipzz> (given optional setup of some extra packages if needed)
[03:56] <infinity> Chipzz : After you add a kernel, a bootloader, and make sure you have a password, sure.
[03:57] <Chipzz> I once tried stripping a normal debootstrapped system, but I couldn't get rid of some packages that are not in a --variant=buildd environment
[03:57] <Chipzz> infinity: thx :)
[03:57] <Chipzz> maybe I'll try that some time :)
[03:58] <Chipzz> infinity: I think a --variant=buildd system actually includes a kernel :)
[03:59] <infinity> Chipzz : I think you're wrong.
[03:59] <Chipzz> I'll check in a bit (I have dpkg-reconfigure running in it atm)
[03:59] <infinity> elmo : I'm not sure what build brought down king, BTW, as it wasn't an "instant death" thing.  It started to OOM at one point in the day, and continued to OOM off and on for, like, 12 hours before it finally died.
[04:00] <elmo> infinity: sweet
[04:00] <infinity> Chipzz : ("I tihnk you're wreong" was a polite way of saying "I know you're wrong")
[04:01] <elmo> REJECT
[04:01] <elmo> Rejected: libpgtcl-dev_1.5-0ubuntu1_powerpc.deb: old version (7.4.7-2ubuntu2) in hoary >= new version (1.5-0ubuntu1) targeted at breezy.
[04:01] <elmo> bddebian: ^-- is that you?
[04:01] <infinity> elmo : I've never seen a machine flail around OOMing for that long before.  The log is rather impressive.
[04:01] <mdz> Keybuk: nice one
[04:01] <Chipzz> infinity: hehe :)
[04:02] <Chipzz> infinity: you're right :)
[04:02] <Chipzz> i was confused with linux-kernel-headers
[04:02] <bddebian> elmo: Nope, pitti I assume.  I was trying to package it
[04:02] <elmo> meh
[04:02] <elmo> bddebian: and no, you're not, I'm just busy is all
[04:02] <Keybuk> mdz: there's a few races all going on at once here
[04:02] <elmo> bddebian: but like mdz said, leading questions aren't fun - just ping me
[04:03] <Keybuk> discarding udevsend events because we expect a netlink event any second is all very well
[04:03] <Keybuk> but it doesn't take into account that we might have taken so long to get ready, that the netlink event has already been and gone
[04:03] <bddebian> elmo: Fair enough.  Actually after wesnoth it'd probably be better to hold off until I can test sylpheed a little better :-)
[04:04] <Keybuk> anyway, that's where the bogosity is here
[04:06] <elmo> does anyone know any good annotation type software?
[04:06] <mdz> Keybuk: do they come with matching sequence numbers?
[04:06] <Keybuk> yes
[04:06] <Keybuk> and there's even code to un-dupe events with matching sequence numbers
[04:06] <mdz> ...
[04:06] <Keybuk> it's a bit "what's this code DOING HERE"
[04:07] <mdz>  /* don't ask */
[04:10] <lifeless> elmo: what do youo mean by annotation type ?
[04:11] <wasabi> elmo, can I get a sync with Debian of nss-updatedb or is it too late?
[04:12] <Keybuk> I love pressing ^D in init=/bin/sh
[04:14] <elmo> wasabi: what's your email again?
[04:14] <wasabi> wasabi@larvalstage.net
[04:14] <elmo> lifeless: I'm editing a document, and beyond diffs, I want to provide comemntary to the diffs
[04:15] <lifeless> elmo: ah, so you want markup that is outside the document yeah ?
[04:16] <elmo> lifeless: yah
[04:17] <elmo> wasabi: done
[04:17] <elmo> bddebian: re-mail me whne your happy with slypheed then
[04:17] <wasabi> super. thanks.
[04:17] <bddebian> elmo: OK, thx
[04:18] <lifeless> elmo: I am aware of none opensource
[04:19] <elmo> lifeless: sux, thx anyway
[04:20] <infinity> elmo : rothera's problem was a buggy daemon init script.
[04:21] <elmo> infinity: yeah I figured - in main?
[04:21] <elmo> either way sucks to lose a buildd for so long and not notice
[04:21] <infinity> No, caudium.
[04:21] <elmo> I think I need to nagios a "been building for > 10 hours" check or so
[04:21] <elmo> well, maybe more for powerpc
[04:22] <infinity> Nothing should take more than that, except openoffice on a bad day
[04:22] <elmo> gcc on powerpc does I thought?
[04:23] <elmo> thanks to the TESTSUITE OF DEATH
[04:23] <bddebian> heh
[04:23] <infinity> Hrm, maybe it's not a buggy init script.
[04:23] <elmo> oh, no, not even close
[04:24] <infinity> How is it that we have priority=required packages that aren't included in our variant=buildd chroots?... Feh.
[04:24] <elmo> openoffice.org2:        07:00:01 (5 entries, sigma 00:11:21)
[04:24] <elmo> openoffice.org:         05:47:39 (13 entries, sigma 02:07:32)
[04:24] <elmo> gcc-4.0:                04:49:30 (12 entries, sigma 01:15:22)
[04:24] <infinity> Oh, wait, required != essential.
[04:24] <infinity> Brain fart.
[04:25] <bddebian> Does openoffice.org2 take longer than glibc?
[04:25] <infinity> Much.
[04:25] <elmo> glibc:                  00:49:40 (14 entries, sigma 00:13:27)
[04:25] <elmo> the first 3 are the top 3
[04:26] <bddebian> Hmm, maybe I'm just used to glibc taking two days on GNU/Hurd ;-P
[04:26] <elmo> you have a GNU/Hurd box that can stay up two days?
[04:26] <infinity> Zing!
[04:26] <bob2> it's good to see oo2 managed to innovate in the build time department
[04:26] <bddebian> elmo: http://www.bddebian.com  -- click uptime
[04:27] <elmo> well, running a buildd I mean
[04:27] <elmo> last i checked the debian folks couldn't anyway
[04:27] <elmo> buildd == kernel killer
[04:27] <elmo> infinity: not too many
[04:27] <elmo> well, not that are build-depended on 
[04:27] <infinity> I htink I may maintain one. :)
[04:28] <bddebian> elmo: I think the hurdfr guys had one going.  I don't know the latest status
[04:31] <infinity> procps has 26 reverse deps.  That seems a bnit slim, when I think of all the shell scripts that may invoke it.
[04:31] <infinity> Oh well.  I'll fix Caudium, since I know it's broken.
[04:31] <bddebian> elmo: OK, please sync sylpheed 2.1.1-1 from experimental if you get the chance. Thx.
[04:33] <elmo> done
[04:33] <bddebian> elmo: Awesome, thx
[04:39] <infinity> I suppose I should file the other two bugs this exposed upstream.
[04:39] <infinity> 1. WTF does a package build-dep on caudium rather than caudium-dev?
[04:39] <infinity> 2. WTF doesn't caudium daemonise properly?
[04:39] <infinity> (2. is why the buildd was hung)
[04:40] <bddebian> Why does any package use AC_CHECK_LIB(foo, main,...)??  Isn't that wrong?  I didn't think most libraries provied a main??
[04:42] <elmo> eh
[04:42] <elmo> they don't need to
[04:43] <elmo> infinity: because caudium is some freaky webserver with a userbase of the author and his dad
[04:43] <bddebian> Well I know of at least two packages that break because of that.  What's a better way to handle it?
[04:44] <infinity> elmo : <snicker>
[04:45] <bddebian> Oh, I missed that remark, hehe
[04:46] <Chipzz> *sigh* :)
[04:46] <wasabi> how the hell do I turn off this clicking in the terminal/text editor stuff.
[04:46] <wasabi> How annoying!
[04:48] <Chipzz> if I'm allowed to make a suggestion... maybe it would be a good idea to have something like #ubuntu-advanced or whatever... questions harder then "how do I become root" usually tend to go unanswered in #ubuntu (take this comment with the necessary grain of salt :)), and the other option is to ask here, which of course the developers here do not like...
[04:50] <Keybuk> mdz: and that fixes udev
[04:50] <Keybuk> \o/
[04:50] <Chipzz> (not that I'm saying to people in #ubuntu are not doing a good job, but there are so much newbies in #ubuntu, that the signal to noise ratio is rather low)
[04:50] <desrt> Chipzz; the fact is -- if you're sufficiently advanced, you'll eventually reach a point where the correct solution is to figure it out for yourself
[04:52] <Chipzz> dsert: let me give you an example... I have about 8 years experience with linux, 3 years with debian... I upgraded from hoary beta through breezy. When I read about the boot splash, I tried to install it, following instructions of dpkg-reconfigure ..., which didn't help. I tried using google, to no avail either. Finally I asked here and got helped
[04:53] <bob2> removing more clueful people from #ubuntu is a bad idea
[04:53] <bob2> Chipzz: what was the solution?
[04:53] <Chipzz> bob2: the problem was I was focussing on the wrong thing >> the warning from grub about the image
[04:53] <bob2> right
[04:53] <Chipzz> solution was installing usplash
[04:54] <Keybuk> right, time for me to sleep for 16 hours <g>  that used a lot of brain-time
[04:54] <bob2> ubuntu-desktop Depends on usplash, tho
[04:54] <Chipzz> I even straced the dpk-reconfigure, leading me to a file which I searched for in packages.ubuntu.com
[04:54] <Chipzz> bob2: yes, but I nuked some packages which caused some other metapackages to be removed
[04:55] <desrt> Chipzz; that's a newbie problem -- definitely not advanced :)
[04:55] <desrt> rule 1: keep ubuntu-desktop involved or proceed with -extreme- caution :)
[04:55] <Chipzz> desrt: so how come nobody was able to help me on #ubuntu?
[04:55] <Chipzz> though bob2 tried to iirc :)
[04:56] <Chipzz> desrt: yea well but I don't like OOo for one bit, and installed gnumeric/abiword instead
[04:56] <Chipzz> not sure if that was the removel that caused ubuntu-desktop to be uninstalled though
[04:57] <Burgundavia> Chipzz, that was likely it
[04:58] <Chipzz> bob2: btw, I'm not saying we should remove more experienced people from #ubuntu ... just to have an extra option somewhere in between
[05:02] <Chipzz> anyway, I'll go back to just reading the conversations here and leave you guys to your business :)
[05:03] <desrt> Chipzz; rule 2: disk is cheap :)
[05:05] <Chipzz> yea but my personal opinion is that OOo sucks donkey balls ;)
[05:05] <bddebian> heh
[05:06] <Chipzz> apart from taking up a lot of space, imho it's also bloated, memory-hungry, poorly integrated and has a bad UI... but then that's my opinion, you don't have to agree
[05:07] <Burgundavia> Chipzz, unfortunately, Goffice lacks a few pieces, like a presenation creator
[05:07] <Chipzz> Burgundavia: exactly
[05:07] <Chipzz> Burgundavia: that's what I got MS ppt-viewer under wine for ;)
[05:07] <Chipzz> well, for seeing the presentations anyway
[05:07] <Burgundavia> Chipzz, evince should do ppt?
[05:07] <wasabi> elmo, can I also get libnss-db synched? It goes hand in hand with nss-updatedb. Didn't realize it was required.
[05:08] <Chipzz> Burgundavia: it does not on my ubuntu-install
[05:08] <elmo> wasabi: that's in main
[05:08] <wasabi> oh is it?
[05:08] <Chipzz> Burgundavia: does it work for you?
[05:08] <Burgundavia> Chipzz, never tested it
[05:08] <elmo> wasabi: and would be a new upstream version
[05:08] <wasabi> Alas.
[05:09] <Chipzz> Burgundavia: I read about it on pgo, but it was a bit experimental and incomplete iirc
[05:09] <wasabi> Don't suppose you can back out nssupdatedb then and we can consider the entire thing a wash? heh
[05:09] <elmo> wasabi: no
[05:10] <elmo> please please PLEASE check syncs before you ask for them
[05:10] <wasabi> "ooops."
[05:10] <elmo> wasabi: if it needs reverted, you'll have to upload the old package with an artifically higher version
[05:10] <elmo> (but not an epoch ,since that'll be permanent and mess up future merges)
[05:10] <wasabi> Alas. Well, nss-updatedb is broken either way, so it's not that much of a problem I guess. =(
[05:11] <Chipzz> Burgundavia: anyway, I can understand why the ubuntu developers would want OOo in ubuntu, and it's obviously the right thing to do, I'm not arguing that
[05:11] <Burgundavia> ya
[05:12] <Chipzz> but personally I don't like it, and I'ld love to see goffice mature to a point that it can be included or even used by default
[05:13] <Burgundavia> Chipzz, once one distro starts shipping it, it will rapidly mature I think
[05:14] <Chipzz> Burgundavia: there are actually to presentation programs for gnome: criawips and present
[05:14] <Chipzz> too bad neither is actually usable
[05:14] <Burgundavia> I think criawips got some love recently
[05:14] <jdub> Chipzz: if you're keen to help goffice, back them up on their gocollab work - that's going to be a defining force
[05:14] <Chipzz> (present only views .ppts)
[05:15] <Chipzz> jdub: gocollab?
[05:15] <Burgundavia> jdub, ok, pissing myself laughing --> http://lwn.net/images/ns/lca/d-waugh.jpg
[05:15] <Chipzz> Burgundavia: and criawips doesn't do .ppt's iirc
[05:15] <jdub> Chipzz: see gnome-journal
[05:15] <jdub> Burgundavia: dunking?
[05:15] <Burgundavia> jdub, yes, but the expression on your face is priceless
[05:15] <wasabi> THe first thing I notice about that pic is the unfortunate lack of pants.
[05:15] <Chipzz> jdub: oh; I don't read that anymore, since I follow pgo extremely closely
[05:15] <Chipzz> should read it I guess :)
[05:16] <bob2> los pantalones
[05:16] <Chipzz> jdub: pgo is the first page I open when opening firefox ;)
[05:16] <jdub> heh
[05:16] <Chipzz> ROFL :)
[05:16] <jdub> Burgundavia: so funny thing about that day
[05:16] <Amaranth> i admit, i hit slashdot, gmail, _then_ pgo
[05:16] <jdub> everyone doing the dunking was very polite
[05:17] <jdub> sat nicely in their dunking chair
[05:17] <jdub> waited for the inevitable
[05:17] <jdub> except for one man
[05:17] <jdub> keith packard
[05:17] <Chipzz> pgo, then dgo here
[05:17] <jdub> who got up in his little hat
[05:17] <jdub> sat in his dunking chair
[05:17] <jdub> and proceeded to kick water at the crowd like a little evil pixie
[05:17] <Amaranth> hehehe
[05:17] <Amaranth> he got soaked, right?
[05:18] <jdub> oh, he got dunked, for sure
[05:18] <wasabi> i so can't wait for this nokia thing
[05:18] <Amaranth> 770?
[05:18] <wasabi> Yeah.
[05:18] <bob2> wow
[05:18] <bob2> he does look like a pixie
[05:21] <Chipzz> jdub: I doubt gnome-office will ever be a coherent office suite though... the goals of abiword are quite different from gnumeric for example
[05:22] <fabbione> bob2: i don't see the problem here at all... it probably depends on your setup
[05:22] <fabbione> morning
[05:23] <Chipzz> to mention one thing, I once went through a bunch of gnome apps and compared icons on the menus... filed some bugs, submitted a partial patch for abiword which got accepted, but the other abiword bug ended up WONTFIX in the end
[05:26] <bddebian> Hello fabbione 
[05:27] <fabbione> yo
[05:27] <bob2> fabbione: hm, odd, this is just with tspc
[05:28] <bob2> which is a shame, since it otherwise magically worked
[05:28] <fabbione> tspc?
[05:29] <fabbione> what kind of setup is that?
[05:29] <bob2> the freenet6 client
[05:29] <fabbione> i use a pure tunnel
[05:29] <fabbione> meh ok
[05:29] <fabbione> it might be a bug in the tspc
[05:30] <ajmitch> bob2: what issues did you have?
[05:30] <bob2> a flood of:
[05:30] <bob2> Sep 21 11:51:44 localhost kernel: icmpv6_send: no reply to icmp error
[05:30] <bob2> while ping6ing www.kame.net from another host
[05:31] <ajmitch> ah right
[05:31] <ajmitch> I think I've seen that a few times
[05:34] <bob2> meh
[05:34] <bob2> maybe 2.6.10 is too old to a useful router
[05:34] <bob2> fabbione: who's your tunnel broker?
[05:35] <fabbione> bob2: i am my own tunnel broker 
[05:35] <fabbione> <- AS3263
[05:35] <bob2> hah
[05:37] <bob2> hah, bgp seems to think ericcson runs that ;)
[05:37] <ajmitch> bob2: whois even shows fabbione's name there though :)
[05:38] <fabbione> bob2: yes.. that's telebit.. where i used to work a few years back, but they never had an "internet department"
[05:38] <desrt> you have an AS number?
[05:38] <desrt> crikey
[05:38] <fabbione> so we always did it together..
[05:39] <bob2> ajmitch: hm, how do I get the whois client to look up as records?
[05:39] <desrt> whois AS####
[05:39] <fabbione> bob2: whois AS3263
[05:39] <ajmitch> worked for me :)
[05:39] <fabbione> desrt: well it's not mine, but i am still one of the admins
[05:39] <bob2> hm, times out for me
[05:40] <desrt> the linux whois is smart enough to figure out the right server to use
[05:40] <fabbione> still.. i play bgp from home :)
[05:40] <desrt> it's not very interesting unless you're multihomed
[05:40] <fabbione> desrt: i am.. in ipv6
[05:40] <fabbione> and in ipv4 to some extents.. but i don't play bgp in ipv4
[05:41] <fabbione> too much ram for no real gain
[05:41] <fabbione> desrt: i have 3ffe:100::/24 and 2001..something
[05:41] <desrt> showoff :p
[05:42] <fabbione> yeah :)
[05:42] <fabbione> but i am cool ;)
[05:42] <fabbione> i should really restart again my ipv6 archive
[05:42] <fabbione> desrt: debian.fabbione.net.. old time stuff :)
[05:42] <desrt> peer with me
[05:42] <desrt> :)
[05:43] <bob2> haha
[05:43] <desrt> alternatively, i'm willing to accept a chunk of your 2001 addressspace :)
[05:43] <fabbione> eheh
[05:43] <fabbione> i don't delegate 2001..
[05:43] <desrt> from what i understand 3ffe is supposed to be useless/not used/whatever, right?
[05:43] <fabbione> i only give out bits of the 3ff3 for playing
[05:43] <bob2> desrt: 2001 space is free now, too
[05:44] <fabbione> desrt: it's going to be dismissed
[05:44] <fabbione> that's correct
[05:44] <desrt> bob2; where do i go to get my 2001::/48?
[05:44] <ajmitch> bob2: as are a lot of us mere users :)
[05:44] <bob2> desrt: freenet6.net, among other places
[05:44] <desrt> for a /48?
[05:44] <ajmitch> yes
[05:44] <bob2> yes
[05:44] <desrt> crikey.
[05:45] <wasabi> I would sure like ipv6. =/
[05:45] <wasabi> actually maybe I should set up IPSEC between all my boxes.
[05:45] <bob2> single ipv6 ips?
[05:45] <desrt> yes
[05:45] <desrt> on the 6bone
[05:45] <fabbione> desrt: do you realize that 3ffe:100::/ was the first 3ffe net ever delegated?
[05:46] <desrt> no :p
[05:46] <desrt> i realise that 3ffe:b00:4012::/48 was the most awesome 3ffe net ever delegated, though
[05:46] <desrt> it had *all 3* of my computers on it
[05:49] <desrt> fabbione; so if i get a netblock can you bgp peer me?
[05:50] <fabbione> desrt: only if you have an ASNO
[05:50] <fabbione> i don't accept peers with pvt ASNO
[05:50] <desrt> hmm
[05:50] <desrt> AS# costs like $3000, doesn't it?
[05:51] <fabbione> desrt: i don't know how much it costs, but to have one is not simple
[05:51] <fabbione> you need to fulfill certain requirements
[05:51] <desrt> ya.  it's pretty much not worth it
[05:51] <fabbione> like being multihomed
[05:51] <bob2> even if it was free it'd be complicated
[05:51] <fabbione> and so on
[05:51] <fabbione> it is
[05:51] <bob2> since you need at least a /24 and two transit providers
[05:51] <desrt> a /24?
[05:51] <fabbione> yes
[05:51] <desrt> nobody carries /24 routes :p
[05:52] <Lathiat2> a /24? heh i think you'll need more than that
[05:52] <fabbione> you need at least a /24
[05:52] <fabbione> (ipv4)
[05:52] <Lathiat2> is that all?
[05:52] <fabbione> Lathiat: nope..
[05:52] <desrt> most people drop anything less than a /22
[05:52] <fabbione> one class is enough
[05:52] <fabbione> desrt: no no
[05:52] <bob2> people carry /24 routes
[05:52] <Lathiat2> desrt: err no
[05:52] <fabbione> they are not allowed to
[05:52] <Lathiat2> there are smaller routes than /24 floating around the place too
[05:52] <bob2> since small people doing multihoming all have /24's
[05:53] <Lathiat2> fabbione: so who are you associated with?
[05:53] <fabbione> Lathiat: a bunch of other ISP
[05:53] <fabbione> we mostly do peering
[05:54] <Lathiat2> so your a peering point
[05:54] <Lathiat2> ?
[05:54] <desrt> man
[05:54] <desrt> i totally envy your mad connections
[05:54] <fabbione> Lathiat: sort of :)
[05:54] <Lathiat2> heh
[05:54] <fabbione> see..
[05:54] <fabbione> this backbone was born as experimental
[05:54] <fabbione> and for research
[05:54] <desrt> so a /24 is universally portable?
[05:54] <fabbione> there is no real traffic going on
[05:54] <fabbione> desrt: yes
[05:55] <Lathiat2> desrt: yes and no
[05:55] <desrt> wow
[05:55] <desrt> er?
[05:55] <Lathiat2> yes, in general, no, in most places you can't just randomly advertises /24s
[05:55] <desrt> yes or no? :)
[05:55] <Lathiat2> but if your on someone trusted globally you can advertise whatever you like
[05:55] <desrt> assuming you have BGP access
[05:55] <Lathiat2> right
[05:55] <Lathiat2> "trusted"
[05:55] <Lathiat2> :)
[05:56] <desrt> i was modifying my original question :p
[05:56] <Lathiat2> but depending on who you are, your upstream will filter the prefixes you can advertise etc
[05:56] <desrt> "so a /24 is universally portable, assuming you have bgp access?"
[05:56] <desrt> gotcha.
[05:56] <bob2> and assuming it's a PA /24
[05:56] <Lathiat2> bob2: well you can flat out advertise it, whether you should or not is a different story
[05:56] <bob2> which you will only get by convincing your RIR that you're multi-homing
[05:56] <Lathiat2> and people notice when you start doing bad things :)
[05:57] <desrt> it'll be nice the day that my IPs are allocated by IANA and not some ISP :)
[05:58] <bob2> ipv6 makes it harder to get PA space
[05:58] <bob2> ie not at all unless you're an ISP
[05:58] <lifeless> ipv6 alsmo maskes it easier to get /48s
[05:58] <lifeless> so I can forgive the not having portable addresses thing
[05:58] <bob2> hahaha
[05:58] <Lathiat2> because since we have so much address space
[05:58] <Lathiat2> we can just go waste it all
[05:59] <bob2> the ipv6 multi-homing discussions are scary
[05:59] <desrt> the global route tables are going to be disgustingly large
[05:59] <bob2> desrt: which is why you don't have portable space anymore
[05:59] <desrt> oh.  ow.
[05:59] <desrt> i suppose that's why multihoming discussions get scary
[06:04] <fabbione> mdz: ping?
[06:55] <Lathiat2> daniels: whats the deal with ati acceleration, are you turning that on by default in the next release or not (bit confused by your email about it?) [and i mean 2d in 'ati' not 3d in fglrx or whatever] 
[06:56] <Burgundavia> Lathiat, are you aware of the r300 project?
[06:57] <Burgundavia> Lathiat2, ^
[06:57] <Lathiat2> yes
[06:57] <Lathiat2> im just asking about the 2d acceleartion in ati for breezy.. cus atm performance is horrid and daniels mailed saying some machines crash with it etc but "wait fo rthe next release" and im not sure if he means its being turned on or a problem was fixed or what
[07:01] <phlaegel> ok, that last udev update is fairly broken
[07:01] <phlaegel> it's fun to have no mouse or sound ;-)
[07:02] <Lathiat2> heh
[07:03] <infinity> Lathiat2 : With accel turned back on in the latest xorg release, my T43 is fine again (yay, I can move windows!)
[07:04] <Lathiat2> heh yeh moving windows here sucks without it
[07:05] <Lathiat2> mjg59: about?
[07:08] <doko> good morning
[07:49] <fabbione> mdz: did you recently try the live session on DVD?
[07:49] <fabbione> it seems to hang here, but it might as well be a bad burn
[07:54] <doko> mdz: please promote openoffice.org2-java-common to main
[08:07] <daniels> Lathiat2: it's on by default, except for a very small class of laptop chipsets (R[CS] 4xx)
[08:10] <Lathiat2> daniels: ah ok, nifty
[08:11] <fabbione> daniels: i think i found an interesting bug in xserver
[08:11] <daniels> do tell
[08:11] <fabbione> you remember more or less my ws setup?
[08:11] <fabbione> 3 heads
[08:11] <fabbione> 2 gfx
[08:12] <fabbione> when i boot the machine, the gfx that's not primary is initizalized very late
[08:12] <fabbione> what happens is that the monitor(s) are in power sleep
[08:12] <fabbione> when x starts up, the monitor turns on
[08:13] <fabbione> but most of the time the EDID read timesout because the attempt is done before the monitors are fully awake
[08:13] <fabbione> so X starts up
[08:13] <fabbione> but all resolutions are borked
[08:13] <fabbione> a restart of the server fixes it
[08:13] <fabbione> but the main issue is that EDID read should probably retry 2 times if it fails
[08:14] <fabbione> that will give time to the monitors to turn on and be able to answer to the request
[08:14] <fabbione> it is reproducible
[08:14] <fabbione> and i can do it everytime i boot the machine
[08:14] <fabbione> it is not driver dependent
[08:14] <fabbione> it happens with both nv and nvidia
[08:14] <fabbione> (i don't have other cards atm)
[08:15] <daniels> edid does retry, and your monitor should return edid in powersave mode; mine do
[08:15] <fabbione> and it is PCI/AGP independent
[08:15] <fabbione> it happens in both ways (indipendently if i use PCI or AGP as primary.. the other fails)
[08:15] <fabbione> daniels: i have 3 different brands of monitors
[08:16] <fabbione> they all fail the same way
[08:16] <fabbione> so i doubt it's an issue with them
[08:18] <daniels> fabbione: dunno man, maybe your card.  mine also happens to cache edid.
[08:18] <daniels> but trust me that it does retry
[08:19] <daniels> but to get it to power on, you have to hand it an image -> have to set a mode, which is exactly what you need edid for
[08:19] <fabbione> daniels: it was working before...
[08:19] <fabbione> it started to do it recently
[08:21] <fabbione> wow.. i am impressed..
[08:21] <fabbione> i got a mobo that can't boot from hd0
[08:21] <fabbione> it attemps even boot from my wife
[08:21] <fabbione> but not from hd0
[08:27] <dholbach> for whom else is X broken?
[08:28] <dholbach> (after a recent upgrade)
[08:28] <siretart> morning
[08:29] <[Chameleon] > dholbach: on PPC or other arch?
[08:29] <siretart> dholbach: how badly broken is it?
[08:29] <dholbach> hi siretart 
[08:29] <dholbach> [Chameleon] , i386
[08:29] <daniels> define 'broken'
[08:29] <dholbach> siretart, trying to figure it out
[08:29] <[Chameleon] > hmm.. I'm not sure that I've rebooted since last update... But I'm on AMD64
[08:29] <daniels> does it not start?  does it start and hang?  are colours weird?
[08:30] <dholbach> unable to open /dev/agpgart and can't find a mouse - on an x40
[08:30] <dholbach> does not start
[08:30] <daniels> that's udev being crap
[08:30] <daniels> again
[08:30] <dholbach> yeah, i just checked the udev changelog
[08:32] <hunger> dholbach: The mice problem didn't happen for me yesterday for the first time in a while.
[08:34] <hunger> ARG! Who made the usplash timeout so damn long?!
[08:34] <hunger> Where can I find the bootup output?
[08:35] <hunger> How can I turn this stupid usplash off?
[08:35] <bob2> remove the usplash package
[08:35] <hunger> I need to provide a password during bootup to unlock my HDDs and usplash keeps me waiting for AGES
[08:36] <dholbach> i'll try to revert to the last udev version
[08:36] <hunger> dholbach: Nope... I have the /dev/input/mice issue again:-(
[08:36] <phlaegel> dholbach: that works
[08:37] <dholbach> woohoo - party! :)
[08:37] <phlaegel> dholbach: bug 15932
[08:37] <hunger> dholbach: I have the /d/i/m issue for weeks now! It is not caused by the latest udev.
[08:37] <dholbach> hunger, did you file a bug?
[08:38] <hunger> dholbach: There is one for it.
[08:39] <dholbach> brb
[08:40] <dholbach> good morning :)
[08:42] <magnon> morning
[08:44] <mdz> fabbione: I have not even downloaded a DVD in some time
[08:44] <hunger> The three most annoying things with breezy: 1) usplash not accepting input (so cryptdisks needs to wait for a timeout), 2) /d/i/mice not getting created 3) ssh me@localhost not working anymore with passphrases.
[08:44] <fabbione> mdz: ok.. 
[08:45] <hunger> Hey! 1 is easy to fix be removing "splash" from menu.lst:-)
[08:45] <doko> mdz: openoffice.org-debian-files:
[08:46] <doko> oops, sorry, do we need a separate inclusion report?
[08:46] <phlaegel> hunger: do you have a bug filed for 1? it's good idea, imo
[08:46] <hunger> phlaegel: I think there was one when I wanted to do so.
[08:46] <bob2> hunger: 3) wfm
[08:46] <hunger> bob3: wfm?
[08:46] <mdz> doko: only if it's new source, as always
[08:47] <phlaegel> wfm == works for me
[08:48] <phlaegel> and it doesn't work for me, it asks for my password
[08:48] <mdz> hunger: 3) works fine, 2) was just fixed (http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12915) 
[08:48] <mdz> hunger: if 1) were the worst thing in breezy, we'd be done
[08:48] <hunger> phlaegel: Used to here... nowadys sshd complains about /home not having proper permissions.
[08:49] <hunger> phlaegel: It has permissions that are sensible and I did not change them anyway, so I am somewhat surprised. This happens only when trying to read keys, so loggin with password works.
[08:49] <mdz> hunger: fix your crypto init script to run usplash_write QUIT and you should be blissful
[08:49] <doko> mdz: well, we did have it in hoary, moved it to universe, now decided to move it back to main, with a reduced set of files
[08:49] <hunger> mdz: I said those were the most annoying things;-)
[08:50] <mdz> hunger: and I say they're just the ones you feel like complaining about at this moment
[08:51] <mdz> and furthermore,one is already fixed, and two are configuration errors
[08:51] <hunger> mdz: OK, I'll stop whining.
[08:51] <jdub> hooray!
[08:52] <mdz> jdub: good morning
[08:52] <jdub> yo!
[08:52] <jdub> good very late evening
[08:53] <Treenaks> jdub: good early morning :)
[08:54] <jdub> mdz: so a decision was made and implemented after last night's meeting?
[08:54] <mdz> jdub: yep
[08:54] <mdz> jdub: it's in the log
[08:55] <jdub> i saw your u-m upload
[08:55] <jdub> "oh!'
[08:56] <doko> mdz: added an entry on the main inclusion queue page, so the re-inclusion is documented
[09:12] <jdub> whiprush: ping
[09:14] <pitti> Hi
[09:15] <magnon> hey pitti
[09:15] <magnon> open for testing now ;)
[09:15] <\sh> morning
[09:16] <pitti> magnon: I'll take care of pbbuttons today, promised
[09:16] <magnon> :)
[09:16] <seb128> hey pitti
[09:16] <dholbach> morning pitti, hi seb128 :)
[09:16] <seb128> hey dholbach
[09:16] <magnon> I hope to get my xkb changes into whateverstream sometime soon
[09:16] <pitti> darn, I slept too long, but I'm feelin goood :-)
[09:17] <pitti> magnon: do you have a patch for pbbuttonsd?
[09:17] <Lathiat> crashed on me :(
[09:17] <magnon> pitti: nah, I just upgraded :P
[09:17] <pitti> magnon: if so, today would be a perfect time to send it to me :)
[09:18] <magnon> but I'm making a keymap that works simultaneously with an Apple external keyboard AND the Aluminum powerbook ;)
[09:41] <sivang> goooood morning all!
[09:42] <daniels> magnon: which xkb changes?
[09:42] <magnon> daniels: no code patches
[09:42] <daniels> magnon: right ...
[09:42] <magnon> just... making my powerbook work adequatly.
[09:42] <daniels> ...
[09:43] <magnon> feel free to tell me what you're dotting for :)
[09:44] <Treenaks> daniels: btw, I saw working DRI on my PCIE ati (using fglrx).. coolness!
[09:46] <daniels> magnon: what exactly are you changing?
[09:47] <magnon> daniels: key and symbol maps so that my laptop could work as intended out of the box
[09:48] <daniels> riiight ...
[09:50] <sivang> bob2: have you sorted out the vmware problem already?
[09:50] <magnon> daniels: anything wrong with that, or did you expect me to do something else? :P
[09:50] <daniels> i'm just curious what exactly you're doing and/or changing
[09:51] <magnon> to be honest, for doing it properly, I'm not sure
[09:51] <magnon> all I know is that if you install breezy on an aluminum Powerbook, the keyboard works crap
[09:52] <magnon> and that I found some half-assed work on it, that I'm trying to get to work properly.
[09:54] <daniels> define 'works crap'
[09:55] <pitti> seb128: so that "esound does not work" bug was a funny one :-)
[09:55] <magnon> no localised mapping, the command button isn't mapped to anything, fn-keys have no function (without a kernel patch, but nothing after that either without extra work), numlock doesn't work, @ isn't mapped properly...
[09:56] <seb128> pitti: yeah :)
[09:56] <sivang> seb128: I have workaround the cdbs-edit-patch problem in gnome-panel, and created the diffs manually, however when trying to build it I get an error about referencing non existent panel_addto something, any idea?
[09:57] <seb128> sivang: what cdbs-edit-patch problem?
[09:57] <Lathiat> sivang: did you update 00list?
[09:57] <seb128> Lathiat: it uses simple-patchsys with cdbs
[09:57] <seb128> ie: no 00list
[09:57] <Lathiat> ah
[09:57] <seb128> no 01list, no list at all :p
[09:57] <magnon> if you connect an external keyboard, you have less problems with that by itself since it's close to a pc105, but it still isn't right.
[09:57] <chmj> ogra: ping 
[09:58] <sivang> Lathiat: it's simple-patchsys.mk, doesn't use 00list
[09:58] <sivang> seb128: other then that, I've seen that we have 4 patches there with the same prefixing number, is that ok ?
[09:58] <bob2> sivang: no
[09:59] <magnon> daniels: any comments to that?
[09:59] <seb128> sivang: sure
[09:59] <sivang> me wonders how I should know which of them comes first if I want to uniquiely number them..
[09:59] <seb128> sivang: but what are you trying to do/patch ?
[09:59] <seb128> sivang: alphabetic order ...
[10:00] <daniels> magnon: not really
[10:00] <pitti> daniels: ah, I know why the xorg CAN numbers were lost in breezy - breezy's changelog starts with 4.3.0.dfsg.1-6ubuntu1
[10:01] <pitti> daniels: and these old CANs were fixed earlier
[10:01] <pitti> daniels: could you copy the old changelog back?
[10:01] <daniels> pitti: i told you this a while ago :P
[10:01] <daniels> pitti: um, not really
[10:01] <pitti> daniels: I wasn't aware of that
[10:01] <sivang> seb128: get gnome-panels' source, then cdbs-edit-patch 12_autotools
[10:01] <daniels> -rw-r--r--  1 daniels daniels 127K 2005-09-20 18:35 changelog
[10:01] <daniels> -rw-r--r--  1 daniels daniels 533K 2005-09-12 12:41 changelog.Debian.old
[10:02] <sivang> seb128: it won't let me in the editing temp shell
[10:02] <pitti> daniels: ok, if it's a size issue, I mark them manually
[10:02] <bob2> yay cdbs
[10:03] <magnon> daniels: if you mean that it has been done already, by all means, let me know
[10:04] <seb128> sivang: it's due to the config.guess/sub, not sure if that's a cdbs or a edit-patch issue
[10:04] <daniels> pitti: i've added them to the bottom of the changelog now
[10:04] <pitti> daniels: oh, thanks
[10:04] <daniels> pitti: sorry, I just kept forgetting
[10:04] <sivang> seb128: how can we fix that? clear config.guess/sub and recreate the source pkg?
[10:05] <pitti> no worries, godd that it is finally solved
[10:05] <seb128> sivang: don't list these files with the patch
[10:05] <seb128> maybe pittit knows about the issue, he wrote cdbs-edit-patch :)
[10:06] <sivang> pitti: any idea? :)
[10:07] <pitti> sivang: erm, what? reading scrollback now
[10:08] <seb128> pitti: cdbs-edit-patch breaks on autocrap patches which ship config.guess/.sub changes
[10:08] <pitti> sivang: no idea what went wrong without looking at it
[10:08] <pitti> ouch
[10:09] <seb128> pitti: debian/rules update them but the patch too
[10:09] <sivang> yes?
[10:09] <pitti> seb128: yes, that's natural
[10:09] <seb128> so it's kind of conflict :)
[10:09] <pitti> but then the patch is broken in general
[10:09] <pitti> sivang: ^
[10:09] <sivang> pitti: k
[10:09] <pitti> sivang: there should never be a reason to modify config.guess/sub in a patch
[10:09] <pitti> sivang: just remove that part of the patch from 12_autotools, and it should be fine
[10:10] <sivang> pitti: k, thanks!
[10:10] <sivang> I'm on it now
[10:10] <sivang> seb128: the add_topanel stuff related autcrap gets patched in debian/rules or the autocrap_12 patch?
[10:11] <seb128> pitti: the reason is that the patch is made by running autogen.sh and it does update them :p
[10:11] <seb128> sivang: debian/rules update the config.... files
[10:11] <mvo> ping jdub 
[10:12] <sivang> seb128: ok, then I'm safe dropping the autocrap stuff for config.sub/guess without breaking panel_addto
[10:12] <seb128> yep
[10:12] <seb128> but again, what are you trying to change on the panel?
[10:12] <sivang> seb128: making it consistent with mpt's recommendation
[10:12] <seb128> sivang: which is?
[10:13] <seb128> carlos: hi
[10:13] <sivang> seb128: dropping lpi from clock and other individual applets, leaving it only for the panel itself
[10:13] <carlos> morning
[10:13] <pitti> Hi carlos 
[10:13] <pitti> carlos: will I get a juicy new tarball today? :-(
[10:13] <pitti> :-) even
[10:13] <sivang> seb128: is that ok with you? (we alrady discussed it last week, me and you)
[10:13] <seb128> sivang: no need to update the autotools patch probably
[10:14] <seb128> oh, you change the configure.ac for the different applets too ?
[10:14] <carlos> pitti, sure
[10:14] <sivang> seb128: I wanted to update it, since I PKG_CHECK_MODULES for an applet so it could use lpi stuff, now I need to drop it if the applets don't use it
[10:14] <seb128> k
[10:14] <sivang> seb128: cool, thanks :)
[10:14] <carlos> pitti, http://mawson.ubuntu.com/~carlos/rosetta-breezy-2005-09-20.tar.gz
[10:15] <pitti> carlos: yay
[10:16] <Treenaks> carlos: so that's why rosetta is so slow? :)
[10:16] <carlos> pitti, I think the wrapping differences you got should also be fixed
[10:16] <carlos> Treenaks, ?
[10:17] <Treenaks> carlos: I'm getting timeouts and proxy errors
[10:17] <pitti> carlos: ok, I do a diff -Nur between the tarballs, and then a normalized one (with merged pots)
[10:18] <carlos> pitti, yes, please
[10:18] <carlos> Treenaks, It seems to work here...
[10:18] <Treenaks> carlos: hmm.. weird
[10:18] <carlos> could you describe a bit more what are you doing?
[10:18] <Treenaks> carlos: --> #launchpad :)
[10:27] <\sh> elmo: please sync efax-gtk 3.0.4 from unstable and overwrite efax-gtk_3.0.2-1ubuntu1 (universe that is) thx
[10:28] <daniels> this is a public service announcement
[10:28] <daniels> the default canadian keyboard layout is fucking weird
[10:28] <daniels> that is all
[10:28] <infinity> I assume you mean the weird ca_FR keyboard that almost no one in Canada has ever seen, but OS vendors keep assuming we all use?
[10:28] <infinity> fr_CA, even.
[10:28] <daniels> i'm talking about what you get from setxkbmap -layout ca at present
[10:29] <daniels> which appears to have six levels (three levels + two groups)
[10:29] <infinity> Yeah, which is probably the crazy french canadian thing no one uses.
[10:29] <daniels> this is what you get on the third level: |@{}}[] ~{ and a couple of deadkeys
[10:30] <Burgundavia> daniels, the keyboard are stamped it, but most people use the english keyboard layout
[10:30] <daniels> this is what you get in the second group: 
[10:53] <Lathiat> egh
[10:53] <Lathiat> ogra: ?
[11:00] <Mithrandir> Kamion: can you test whether 15824 affects us?  It seems to be a "perl breaks abi" bug, but it's ppc only (at least, it appears to be)
[11:04] <Kamion> we haven't synced to that version of perl
[11:05] <Kamion> I'll test, but it seems unlikely it'll hit us yet
[11:06] <Mithrandir> it appears to affect us
[11:08] <\sh> infinity: can u give a short introduction how to read the failed-logfiles files of the testbuilds?
[11:08] <infinity> \sh : I tend to start at the top.
[11:08] <\sh> e.g. what means:
[11:08] <\sh> universe/web/php4-maxdb_7.5.00.30-1 by buildd+ross [optional:uncompiled] 
[11:08] <\sh>   Reasons for failing:
[11:08] <\sh>     [Category: none] 
[11:08] <\sh>     not ours
[11:09] <\sh> (ppc that is ;))
[11:09] <infinity> Oh, that.
[11:09] <infinity> That's autofailed, because it doesn't list powerpc in the architecture field.
[11:09] <infinity> (which is fine, since maxdb stuff is only on i386 and amd64, I believe)
[11:10] <Burgundavia> mvo, why did you rip out the darken screen patch?
[11:10] <\sh> infinity: thx :) 
[11:12] <\sh> infinity: so "not ours" means...not in the arch field of the package...
[11:15] <mvo> Burgundavia: it was requested some days ago by jdub. 
[11:15] <Burgundavia> mvo, ok
[11:15] <Burgundavia> jdub, ping
[11:20] <\sh> infinity: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/Test/r/rezound/0.12.0beta-2ubuntu3/rezound_0.12.0beta-2ubuntu3_20050921-0038-powerpc-failed.gz <--- ubuntu5 has to be in the archive
[11:21] <infinity> \sh : Any autotest logs for older versions can safely be ignored, if you know the newer one builds.  When -autotest gets turned on, the archive is snapshotted, so nothing new makes it in until the next flush/re-run.
[11:22] <\sh> infinity: ok..understand :) 
[11:22] <infinity> (It's the only sane way to have a reasonably consistent archive to test against...)
[11:26] <crispin> hmm, where has my /dev/input/mice gone ? I have the latest udev ....
[11:29] <Lathiat> oh dear :\
[11:29] <Lathiat> i upgraded
[11:29] <Lathiat> and my mouse devices dont come up and my ipw2200 wont load firmware
[11:29] <infinity> Blame Keybuk.
[11:30] <crispin> Lathiat: urgh, yeah my ipw2200 isn't loading the firmware either :-(
[11:30] <Lathiat> so
[11:30] <Lathiat> i wont upgrade this laptop
[11:30] <Lathiat> since i already broke 1
[11:30] <Lathiat> or maybe i already did :\ perhaps i just wont reboot
[11:31] <infinity> mvo : Oh, phooey, I liked the gksu screen darken, it really draws your attention to the dialog.  (doubly-so, because of the really irritating delay, so my short-term memory forgets all about having ASKED for a gksu-using app by the time it pops up)
[11:33] <Lathiat> that did have a bit of a nasty performance hit tho
[11:33] <Burgundavia> infinity, I think likewise
[11:33] <infinity> A small performance hit, but I felt it actually added to the usability. Like a big flashing "woot, woot, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING AS ROOT NOW, woot, woot" siren.
[11:34] <infinity> (And I didn't forget about/lose the dialog)
[11:34] <Lathiat> yeh
[11:34] <Lathiat> i agree
[11:34] <mvo> infinity: I don't mind either way (with or without darkening). but I lean slightly toward darkening
[11:35] <infinity> mvo : Hr,, so why the change?... Tech Board decision?
[11:35] <mvo> infinity: jdub request
[11:35] <infinity> Bah. :)
[11:38] <ogra> Lathiat, pong ?
[11:38] <Lathiat> ogra: xscreensaver borked upgrading, know about that?
[11:38] <Lathiat> overwriting a file .. i forget what it was now
[11:39] <ogra> i havent switched back yet, i'll see it soon :)
[11:39] <Lathiat> ok
[11:39] <ogra> (abd fix it indeed :) )
[11:39] <infinity> Upgrade worked for me..
[11:39] <Lathiat> it might have been a result of not upgrading for 2 days
[11:39] <Lathiat> like if there were a couple uploads in between
[11:40] <ogra> especially for the screensaver stuff, yes 
[11:40] <infinity> {x,gnome-}screensaver have seen a few uploads, and broken in different ways, yes.
[11:40] <infinity> You may have just been unlucky in when you did your upgrades.
[11:40] <Lathiat> probably
[11:40] <infinity> Assuming upgrades work for most breezy users (and ALL hoary users), it's probably fine.
[11:40] <ogra> at least the switch is prepoared now for dapper :)
[11:40] <Lathiat> upgrade from hoary and preview would be good
[11:40] <Lathiat> ogra: heh
[11:46] <hunger> Plus I get lots of failures from alsa now when that starts up.
[11:53] <fabbione> doko: ping?
[11:53] <doko> fabbione: pong
[11:53] <siretart> fabbione: did my email about igor reach you?
[11:54] <dmk> hi guys, the latest updates that I hae downloaded this morning have made a laptop go from well supported to unable to start X in one fatal swoop
[11:54] <fabbione> doko: has the oo2 Depends stuff been sorted yet?
[11:54] <fabbione> siretart: yes! thanks! i still need to try to login
[11:54] <siretart> fabbione: ok. my evo crashed, so I wasn't sure
[11:54] <doko> fabbione: what do you mean?
[11:54] <ogra> dmk, #ubuntu please
[11:54] <Kamion> dmk: is it complaining about lack of /dev/input/mice, or something else?
[11:55] <fabbione> doko: today's breezy is not netinstallable due to OO2 Depends: not ok
[11:55] <dmk> Kamion, yeah and /dev/psaux
[11:55] <dmk> Kamion, I recall seeing something about this on the mailing list was going to look up the bug number
[11:56] <dmk> Kamion, i was working perfect all the way through various colony releases and updates until today
[11:56] <Kamion> dmk: please tell http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12915 about it; evidently the change made things worse for some people
[11:57] <dmk> Kamion, ok will do that now - Thanks
[11:57] <doko> fabbione, Kamion: yes, we need openoffice.org2-java-common and openoffice.org-debian-files in main, openoffice.org2-java-common is approved, openoffice.org-debian-files is trivial, was already in main for hoary
[11:58] <dmk> has there also been ALSA changes as my sound has went too
[11:58] <dmk> ?
[12:00] <Kamion> sound device nodes could potentially have been affected by a udev bug
[12:01] <fabbione> doko: so it has not been moved yet...
[12:02] <dmk> Kamion, was thinking that myself.
[12:02] <dmk> Kamion, thanks.
[12:03] <infinity> Kamion : Did you get anywhere interesting with MySQL yesterday?
[12:05] <Kamion> infinity: no, afraid not; it seemed to go away when I added debugging code
[12:05] <Kamion> (in my_pwrite)
[12:05] <Kamion> if you're willing to deal with it, I certainly wouldn't object :-/
[12:06] <infinity> Kamion : I fear it may go away with a rebuild, period.  Or did you manage to get a debug build that still broke?
[12:06] <Kamion> I rebuilt it without debugging and it still broke
[12:06] <infinity> Okay, that's something, then.
[12:06] <Kamion> which was a start, at least
[12:07] <fabbione> Kamion: did you ever get around to fix choose-mirror -> apt-config in d-i? i still get asked twice what mirror to use on netinstall...
[12:07] <fabbione> (nothing CRITICAL.. just nice to have)
[12:09] <pitti> dmk: if it helps you, I currently encounter a similar problem; I have to run udevstart after boot to make things work again
[12:09] <crispin> heh, the clock on the ubuntu bugzilla it an hour out, it claims that it is 11:08 UTC now, where as it as 10:08
[12:09] <tseng> crispin: it could bet set to UK local time
[12:10] <dmk> pitti, cheers for that will give it a shot
[12:10] <infinity> crispin : It's in London time, not UTC.  Hence why it says "BST"
[12:10] <crispin> infinity: err, in the "Additional comment..." bit it says UTC
[12:11] <tseng> ez gtk boog
[12:11] <crispin> and the "last modified" bit at the top of the bug pages
[12:11] <sivang> elmo: do you know if it's possible to change one's email alias by changing the launchpad name? (I changed it yesterday, but checking it I see it didn't reflect my changes)
[12:11] <thesaltydog> what's happening with latest update of dbus?? My Xorg server won't start anymore..
[12:11] <infinity> crispin : Ahh, so it does.  It lies. :)
[12:11] <daniels> thesaltydog: #ubuntu, please
[12:11] <Kamion> fabbione: no, haven't yet, sorry
[12:14] <tseng> http://madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=5145
[12:15] <tseng> you guys should read what he has to say about our release names
[12:15] <tseng> his mastery of english is pretty amazing.
[12:15] <Nafallo> tseng: old news, been on sounder since yesterday :-)
[12:15] <tseng> ah.
[12:17] <Treenaks> Could it be that the udev update broke firmware loading/
[12:17] <Treenaks> I'm getting reports on the Dutch channel
[12:18] <Nafallo> hmm. I'm not going to reboot for a while then :-P
[12:18] <Nafallo> seems it broke every possible device ;-)
[12:18] <crispin> Treenaks: yeah, it broke it for me
[12:19] <Treenaks> crispin: OK
[12:21] <seb128> pitti: any opinion on #8037 ?
[12:22] <pitti> seb128: minute, please
[12:23] <doko> ogra: schoolbell doesn't belong to edubuntu ?
[12:23] <seb128> pitti: no hurry, don't worry
[12:25] <dmk> pitti, just gave that a go. it works fine but just ended up rolling back to previous release of udev for the time being
[12:26] <pitti> dmk: I will try that as well
[12:26] <fabbione> mdz: still around by any chance?
[12:27] <ogra> doko, only libschoolbell
[12:28] <doko> ogra: ok, and that one isn't needed anymore (was basically zope3)
[12:30] <sivang> tseng: I don't get it, is this a good or bad review? ;-)
[12:30] <tseng> sivang: the author is a moron
[12:31] <tseng> i guess i should be less harsh in public, as him
[12:31] <ogra> doko, its no dependency of schooltool anymore ? 
[12:32] <doko> ogra: no
[12:32] <ogra> great... that saves some diskspace
[12:34] <doko> Mithrandir, infinity: regarding 15824, did you rebuild libperl _and_ eperl as well?
[12:34] <Kamion> the review's actually fairly good on the whole
[12:35] <Kamion> and I don't just say that because he pretty much agrees with me about the installer ;-)
[12:35] <Mithrandir> doko: read the debian bug report.  It fails if he rebuilds the perl which used to work.
[12:36] <Mithrandir> doko: which really points to a toolchain bug.
[12:36] <doko> yes, without saying, which compiler version he did use ...
[12:37] <daniels> Kamion: i dunno man, our installer needs a lot of work
[12:37] <daniels> Kamion: we totally need to get rid of this fancy graphical shit to put pretty pictures up
[12:37] <daniels> Kamion: it's ruining us
[12:37] <Mithrandir> doko: "But if I recompile perl-base_5.8.7-4_powerpc.deb on a sid box with the"
[12:37] <Mithrandir> "
[12:37] <Mithrandir> current toolchain, it segfaults:
[12:39] <pitti> seb128: looks like a nice upstream bug
[12:39] <infinity> doko : if both are rebuilt, it works fine (that's how the bug first came to be, a rebuilt libperl broke things, the reporter said a rebuilt eperl fixes it)
[12:39] <pitti> seb128: is there any reason to keep the fd open in the first place?
[12:40] <seb128> pitti: no clue, I'll have a look on the code
[12:42] <seb128> pitti: how is an user supposed to know that the device has been unplugged? polling?
[12:43] <pitti> seb128: why polling? an user will know that he unplugged a device, because he physically has to do it?
[12:43] <seb128> pitti: grrra, s/user/software/
[12:43] <pitti> seb128: if settings-daemon needs to read the mixer levels from time to time, it should close the device in between
[12:43] <seb128> ie: how is gnome-settings-daemon supposed to know it
[12:44] <pitti> seb128: open(); read(); close(); sleep() seems safer
[12:44] <pitti> seb128: I had a similar issue with esd
[12:45] <pitti> seb128: as long as esd kept the device open, the module could not be removed and you got a hang
[12:45] <pitti> seb128: so I changed it to close the device ASAP
[12:46] <doko> infinity: before fiddling with toolchain changes at this point, we can avoid this bug in breezy by recompiling both packages and tightening the dependencies?
[12:47] <infinity> doko : Probably, yes, but who knows if anything else is broken because of this (and how, or why)
[12:47] <seb128> pitti: is /dev/mixer used according to lsof for you?
[12:47] <pitti> seb128: I can look into the bug, yes
[12:47] <pitti> I never noticed it, though
[12:47] <seb128> pitti: me neither
[12:48] <pitti> seb128: I CC'ed me on the bug, I will look into ti
[12:48] <pitti> it
[12:48] <seb128> thanks
[01:00] <HiddenWolf> dholbach, ping
[01:05] <HiddenWolf> dholbach, Attachment #52453 to Bug #273657 Created <bugzilla.gnome.org
[01:17] <infinity> Okay, uhm, having gnome-screensaver still running after it got removed was VERY BAD. :)
[01:17] <infinity> I couldn't unlock my screen without hitting another VT and installing it again.
[01:17] <Treenaks> infinity: or killing it ?
[01:18] <daniels> blame mjg59
[01:18] <ajmitch> hmm, maybe not hanging
[01:18] <ajmitch> since ps axu shows no X running anymore
[01:18] <ogra> infinity, i was thinking about a kill in postinst, but since we normally dont switch back and forth with such stuff i didnt think it was really necessary
[01:19] <ogra> especially since its hard to start xss in the running user session by apt ;)
[01:19] <ogra> Keybuk, !
[01:19] <ajmitch> daniels: great, I've got Xorg.0.log output for you :)
[01:19] <Keybuk> bugger
[01:19] <ogra> yup
[01:20] <daniels> ajmitch: do tell
[01:20] <Treenaks> Keybuk: "You have (overflow) new messages" ?
[01:20] <Keybuk> yes, pretty much
[01:20] <ajmitch> the quick summary is: Fatal server error:
[01:20] <ajmitch> lockup
[01:20] <Treenaks> ajmitch: ouch
[01:20] <ajmitch> preceded by an error, which I'll paste into bugzilla
[01:20] <daniels> ajmitch: blargh.  which version of -driver-i810 were you running?
[01:20] <daniels> < elmo> SCOTT.  THE DISTRO TEAM WOULD LIKE A WORD.  OUTSIDE.
[01:21] <ajmitch> 6.8.2-67 is installed
[01:21] <Keybuk> that doesn't work now <g>  I'm _in_ the distro team <g>
[01:21] <daniels> ajmitch: frig
[01:21] <daniels> Keybuk: yes, and you've already made up for lost time in terms of breaking the world :P
[01:21] <daniels> Keybuk: now all that's left is for you to rewrite udev
[01:21] <Keybuk> daniels: wanted to beat your record
[01:22] <daniels> Keybuk: *shrug*, X works these days
[01:22] <ogra> infinity, dont :)
[01:22] <Keybuk> bet it doesn't work today <g>
[01:22] <daniels> Keybuk: i saved my breakage for times that weren't between preview and release :P
[01:22] <daniels> Keybuk: sure it does.  works just fine.
[01:22] <ajmitch> http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/2404 for the context
[01:22] <Keybuk> without /dev/input/mice? :p
[01:22] <infinity> Well, I could just downgrade udev before my machine crashes and I cry.
[01:22] <Treenaks> Keybuk: AllowMouseOpenFail "true"
[01:23] <daniels> Keybuk: x is working utterly as documented and expected, given the circumstances
[01:23] <daniels> ajmitch: yeah, sounds about right
[01:23] <daniels> ajmitch: oh well
[01:24] <ajmitch> daniels: do you want it in bugzilla for the record?
[01:24] <mjg59> Lathiat: Hi
[01:25] <Lathiat> mjg59: sup
[01:25] <daniels> ajmitch: not really, unfortunately it's way too vague to reproduce (a lockup just means that the engine hung, hard, and the ErrorF()s above it don't give enough information about the last command to be run)
[01:25] <daniels> ajmitch: if you can reproduce it though, that'd be interesting
[01:26] <ajmitch> daniels: so far I've had it 3 times in a row
[01:26] <mjg59> Lathiat: You were looking for me earlier?
[01:26] <Lathiat> mjg59: yeh just about my acpi bug
[01:26] <mjg59> Ah, ok
[01:26] <Lathiat> mjg59: i think anyway
[01:27] <daniels> ajmitch: when suspending/resuming?
[01:28] <ajmitch> daniels: so far just on lid close, which isn't set to suspend
[01:28] <daniels> ajmitch: hmm, that would be the screensaver, no
[01:28] <daniels> ?
[01:28] <ajmitch> well, closing the lid & leaving it for awhile
[01:28] <ajmitch> quite possibly
[01:28] <ajmitch> I've seen the screensaver come on ok with the lid open
[01:28] <ajmitch> and I haven't taken this back to xscreensaver yet
[01:29] <ajmitch> so still g-s-s
[01:29] <daniels> i blame g-s-s
[01:29] <ogra> ajmitch, most likely g-s-s
[01:29] <ajmitch> it's a popular package to blame
[01:29] <infinity> I blame it for everything.
[01:29] <daniels> i blame it for infinity's laptop hanging every day
[01:29] <sivang> infinity: lol
[01:29] <infinity> gnome-screesnsaver raped my mom.
[01:29] <daniels> the only thing I don't blame it for is udev, since blaming scott is far more fun
[01:29] <ogra> i dont care anymore :-D (at least before dapper)
[01:31] <mjg59> Lathiat: Ah, ok
[01:31] <pitti> seb128: ok, STR in gdm logout dialog works fine now :-)
[01:33] <sivang> not too much voices on the ml thread I started, I guess we are reverting to xss ?
[01:34] <ajmitch> sivang: that's what the TB decided, pending sabdfl's approval
[01:34] <sivang> ajmitch: k
[01:38] <janimo> treenaks, you got the audio bug on your laptop? http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15351
[01:39] <Treenaks> janimo: uh, haven't tried
[01:39] <Treenaks> janimo: I'll try once there's a new ISO (tomorrow?) with fixed udev
[01:39] <janimo> treenaks, ok
[01:39] <janimo> thanks
[01:40] <fabbione> infinity: ping?
[01:41] <janimo> what should be the default action on lid close?
[01:42] <fabbione> sudo rm -rf /
[01:42] <janimo> and where to change it? :)
[01:42] <fabbione> :
[01:42] <fabbione> :)
[01:42] <infinity> Light off (but that's usually done in hardware), and probably screen lock.
[01:42] <infinity> But that's debatable.
[01:42] <fabbione> infinity: yo dude
[01:42] <infinity> fabbione : Yo.
[01:42] <bob2> janimo: /etc/acpi/events, but it's pretty non-trivial
[01:42] <infinity> fabbione : I'm running to the grocery store t obuy sugar before they close, care to re-ping me in 30?
[01:43] <janimo> bob2, ok I just wanted to know that there's no bug to report if it doesn't sleep/hibernate
[01:43] <fabbione> infinity: ok. i am going off line for a nap
[01:43] <bob2> janimo: that's normal
[01:43] <infinity> janimo : We specifically don't set it to sleep, because sleep is broken on enough systems that it's a Very Bad Default.
[01:44] <janimo> bob2,infinity thanks both I found where to tweak it
[01:44] <bob2> it'd be annoying enough even it did work; sleep drops all network connections
[01:44] <janimo> is there anything supposed to be left of mkinitrd now that initramfs is used?
[01:45] <janimo> I see acpid still installs in etc/mkinitrd
[01:45] <janimo> just a bit confusing
[01:48] <pitti> Hi Keybuk 
[01:48] <Keybuk> and now, for my next trick...
[01:50] <Robot101> bob2: sleep does not drop network connections if they remain idle on the other end, and you bring your interface back on the same IP
[01:50] <bob2> Robot101: hmm
[01:50] <Robot101> bob2: it's only if you sleep for more than the timeout, or recieve data and then fail to reply to it due to being asleep that the connection is dead when you come back
[01:51] <Lathiat> mjg59: oh
[01:51] <Lathiat> mj	the other thing i said
[01:51] <Lathiat> mjg59: rather than brute forcing dbus addresses etc
[01:51] <Lathiat> mjg59: why dont we run a small daemon as the user that listens on the system bus for events to do things to the screensaver etc (and could have other applications)
[01:51] <Robot101> bob2: like I've slept, eaten dinner, and come back and re-DHCP'd, via two NATs, and my ssh to mutt has still been open, but the 
[01:51] <Robot101> bob2: *but the irssi connection dropped
[01:51] <mjg59> Lathiat: That would be the right thing to do
[01:52] <Lathiat> irssi dropped because irc servers send pings
[01:52] <mjg59> I await code :)
[01:52] <Lathiat> an ssh doing nothing doesn't
[01:52] <Lathiat> mjg59: well, what else could we do with it
[01:52] <Lathiat> mjg59: are there any other uses of system wide events
[01:52] <bob2> Robot101: the NAT hadn't timed you out?
[01:53] <Lathiat> this really applies to dapper now tho since we're punting gss?
[01:53] <mjg59> Lathiat: At the moment, I'm not sure there's really anything
[01:53] <Lathiat> but yeh i'll do something up... for gss if we need it later
[01:53] <Lathiat> altho
[01:53] <Lathiat> conveivable gnome-power-manager could do that
[01:53] <mjg59> Stuff like network-manager and power-manager listen on the system bus already
[01:54] <Robot101> bob2: evidently not :)
[01:54] <bob2> Robot101: I shall test it when sleep works again
[02:01] <dholbach> HiddenWolf: thank you
[02:01] <HiddenWolf> dholbach, hope it helps.
[02:01] <dholbach> HiddenWolf: me too
[02:01] <HiddenWolf> dholbach, had to pull the mail from thunderbird tho.
[02:04] <seb128> pitti: STR?
[02:05] <seb128> pitti: oh, suspend .. cool. What did you change?
[02:06] <HiddenWolf> doko, can we please please please have a preloading applet for OOO2?
[02:11] <doko> HiddenWolf: I don't think that's a good idea to assume some specific user behaviour
[02:13] <mpt> OOo's massive unusable buttons are probably slightly more important than its slowness
[02:13] <pitti> seb128: #12198, pretty simple reason for the breakage
[02:14] <doko> mpt: file a bug report, I even don't know, what you mean ...
[02:14] <HiddenWolf> mpt, is it unusable atm?
[02:14] <Keybuk> [1] +  Segementation fault      (core dumped) udevd
[02:14] <\sh> seb128: #15865 closed 
[02:14] <Keybuk> \o/
[02:14] <mpt> HiddenWolf: Not quite, but several of its dialogs are larger than 1024*768 in at least one direction
[02:15] <HiddenWolf> mpt, sloppy
[02:15] <mpt> HiddenWolf: Not so much sloppy, as getting the gtk font settings wrong, I think
[02:15] <mpt> everything's bigger than native (and bigger than OOo1)
[02:17] <seb128> pitti: oh, nice catch
[02:17] <pitti> seb128: after restarting gdm it worked
[02:17] <pitti> seb128: I hope I fixed the transition correctly, but it worked well for mw
[02:18] <seb128> \sh: thanks
[02:18] <Mithrandir> doko: I can't fix ooo2-amd64 until the ooo2-nonamd64 is fixed.
[02:19] <HiddenWolf> mpt, I read a blog somewhere that suse does pretty neat gnome/ooo integration. Perhaps you could check how they fixed things?
[02:21] <doko> Mithrandir: all packages are in the archive, aren't they? I can give you a java-common for testing, if you want, that's binary-all
[02:21] <dholbach> brb
[02:21] <Mithrandir> doko:   openoffice.org2-base: Depends: openoffice.org2-core (> 1.9.129) but it is not going to be installed
[02:21] <Mithrandir>                         Depends: openoffice.org2-java-common but it is not installable
[02:21] <mpt> HiddenWolf: I'll report the bug tonight when I actually have OOo2 in front of me
[02:21] <azeem> HiddenWolf: suse (or rather ximian) are working on gnome/ooo integration for years now
[02:24] <Yagisan> G'day - can someone point me to a howto for setting up breezys ltsp ?
[02:24] <seb128> HiddenWolf: what things? they use ooo-build too no?
[02:25] <HiddenWolf> seb128, I'm not familiar with the details, but I found this: http://planet.hula-project.org/ - first post
[02:25] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: what's this with spayne being on like 10 planets?
[02:26] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks, no clue, guess he has an ego problem. I don't know him tho.
[02:28] <HiddenWolf> ew, weird bug in ooo
[02:29] <doko> Mithrandir: yes, I told you. I've put the java package on chinstrap now.
[02:30] <seb128> HiddenWolf: maybe the guy didn't install the gnome package for ooo2 on Ubuntu
[02:30] <Mithrandir> doko: doesn't help, I pull stuff from the archive, not from other places.
[02:31] <doko> Mithrandir: don't pester me, I don't process NEW
[02:33] <Kamion> NEW's nearly empty
[02:36] <Mithrandir> Kamion: is openoffice.org2-java-common there?
[02:38] <Kamion> openoffice.org2-java-common | 1.9.129-0.1ubuntu1 | breezy/universe | all
[02:39] <Kamion> it's in the archive
[02:39] <HiddenWolf> seb128, I have it installed, and I still can't say that OOO feels truely gnomy.
[02:39] <Lathiat> thats because it isn't
[02:40] <HiddenWolf> Lathiat, unfortunatly so
[02:40] <doko> Kamion: please promote it to main, as well as openoffice.org-debian-files
[02:41] <Kamion> I've done ooo-debian-files; anastacia isn't telling me that I can do the other yet
[02:41] <seb128> HiddenWolf: I'm not sure it is that way on Suse neither ...
[02:41] <HiddenWolf> Lathiat, will gnome-office eventually have an -impress, do you know?
[02:41] <Mithrandir> Kamion: ah, apt-cacher playing evil tricks with me here
[02:41] <HiddenWolf> seb128, I'd check, but I'd rather not have suse on the system. :)
[02:45] <seb128> Lathiat: this list is not a place to troll :)
[02:45] <seb128> :p
[02:46] <Lathiat> HiddenWolf: yeh criawips i think, i eagerly await it
[02:46] <Keybuk> I am somewhat disappointed that no changelog on Monday was written like a pirate
[02:46] <Zomb> Mithrandir: report bugs if there are any
[02:47] <Mithrandir> Zomb: it might just be that it didn't pick up the newer Packages.gz
[02:48] <Zomb> it gets HTTP headers similarly to what apt-get does, by default. Depends on the configuration.
[02:48] <Keybuk> http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/9/15/59
[02:48] <Keybuk> OH HAAAAAPPY DAAYY
[02:53] <Mithrandir> Kamion: ah, it's in the archive, but it's in universe.  I need it to be in main since it's a dependency of ooo2-base.
[02:54] <Kamion> Mithrandir: I've just promoted it, having re-run anastacia
[02:55] <Kamion> (you lot are impatient :-))
[02:55] <balor> The latest breezy updates seem to nuke the /dev/input devices.  Is this a well known problem?
[02:55] <Kamion> balor: yes, upgrade udev
[02:55] <Mithrandir> Kamion: yay, thanks.  (It's blocking me, hence impatience. :-)
[02:55] <Kamion> to 0.060-1ubuntu14
[02:55] <balor> Kamion, thanks.
[02:56] <lifeless> win 17
[03:03] <Keybuk> lifeless: lose 20
[03:03] <daniels> Kamion: AWTY
[03:07] <zyga> hello
[03:10] <Keybuk> ooh, 5 pages on the forums dedicated to me <g>
[03:11] <daniels> stop WABing
[03:11] <Lathiat> haha
[03:11] <Keybuk> "WAB" ?
[03:11] <daniels> work-avoiding behaviour
[03:11] <Keybuk> I'm reading my e-mail
[03:11] <daniels> it's a janew-ism
[03:11] <Keybuk> that's part of my job :p
[03:11] <JaneW> daniels: it was a well known IRCism... in the olde days (before your time)
[03:12] <seb128> Mithrandir: what happened to the gnomemeeting update to 1.2.2?
[03:12] <daniels> no glx is not slower in my opinion it feels slower !!
[03:12] <daniels> just liek looking at a car wheel when it spins too fast the human eye can hold on and i t looks much slower!!
[03:12] <daniels> WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN
[03:12] <daniels> JaneW: this is my 10th year of IRC
[03:13] <Keybuk> when they go really fast, they look like they're going backwards
[03:13] <daniels> Keybuk: not necessarily
[03:13] <infinity> So, glx is so much faster, it looks like it's going backward?
[03:13] <daniels> but they *can*
[03:13] <Mithrandir> seb128: it got lost in a maze in my head, I think
[03:13] <infinity> daniels : Stop making my X go backward!
[03:13] <JaneW> daniels: right, well snap then ... I started in 1995
[03:13] <\sh> Before IRC there was BitNet
[03:13] <\sh> Relay
[03:13] <JaneW> daniels: I guess I have started by 11th year now
[03:13] <seb128> Mithrandir: do you want to do it or should be delay to after 5.10?
[03:14] <Mithrandir> seb128: I can do it now
[03:14] <seb128> would be nice
[03:14] <JaneW> I started on MUD
[03:14] <seb128> thanks
[03:14] <seb128> you need a new pwlib too
[03:14] <JaneW> MUDD
[03:14] <daniels> JaneW: right, so none of this 'before your time' crap :P
[03:14] <JaneW> daniels: ok sorry :P
[03:14] <\sh> I started with IRC in 1993 on my university sun os server :( 
[03:14] <Keybuk> daniels: ah, and of course, you'd never WAB
[03:14] <daniels> Keybuk: no
[03:14] <Keybuk>  Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 19 (8 members and 11 guests)
[03:14] <Keybuk> wixtech, fjleal, Yvonne, daniels, noelferg, MartinG, T-One, jamesford 
[03:15] <bob2> hahaha
[03:15] <Keybuk> hmm, bad paste
[03:15] <bob2> Keybuk: if you're going to WAB, do it somewhere that won't make you dumber
[03:15] <Keybuk> x-chat has been doing that recently, mucking up bold/italics on paste from firefox
[03:15] <daniels> that tab is closed now
[03:15] <Keybuk> suuuuure it is <g>
[03:15] <daniels> the only two tabs are about people having X problems
[03:15] <daniels> shockingly, they both seem to be about you breaking udev :P
[03:17] <Lathiat> hrm
[03:17] <mxpxpod> pitti: nice work :)
[03:17] <Lathiat> anyone else noticing show desktop/window list/desktop list crashing on login
[03:17] <Lathiat> i seem to get it most times on 1 of my machines
[03:17] <Diziet> Oh, bugger, I grumbled to upstream about the code quality in net-tools and now they want me to join them.
[03:17] <Lathiat> haha Diziet 
[03:17] <infinity> Lathiat : I had it when logging out/in after switching screensaver (x for gnome and back again), but after restarting and saving my session, they've been fine.
[03:18] <Lathiat> infinity: hrm
[03:18] <Kamion> Diziet: "you touched it last"
[03:18] <pitti> mxpxpod: on pbbuttonsd?
[03:18] <pitti> mxpxpod: I'm currently triaging the other bugs
[03:18] <mxpxpod> pitti: yeah, on pbbuttonsd
[03:18] <daniels> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=67619
[03:19] <mxpxpod> pitti: hopefully, 0.7.1 doesn't bring in new bugs
[03:19] <pitti> mxpxpod: I hope that, too :-)
[03:22] <Keybuk> a bug from silbs 
[03:22] <Keybuk> ooh
[03:23] <silbs> Keybuk: i file lots of bugs
[03:23] <silbs> well, not lots
[03:23] <Keybuk> which is the right package to reassign kernel bugs to, I forget?
[03:23] <sivang> hey silbs :)
[03:23] <bob2> Keybuk: the "fabio" product
[03:24] <Kamion> Keybuk: 'linux'
[03:24] <Keybuk> it's the BenC product now
[03:24] <Keybuk> ah yes, I was looking for linux-<something> thanks Colin
[03:24] <daniels> would that be a product, or a project?
[03:24] <Keybuk> productseries
[03:25] <daniels> or maybe an infestation
[03:25] <Keybuk> it's a securesourcepackagepublishinghistory
[03:25] <daniels> it's a A system error has occurred, please try again later
[03:25] <Kamion> in bugzilla it's just 'linux'
[03:25] <Kamion> no idea what it would be in malone
[03:26] <Keybuk> I must admit, I was playing with the new /people/ bit last night during the TB
[03:26] <Keybuk> it is actually quite sweet
[03:26] <Keybuk> Kamion: a pain in the arse
[03:29] <seb128> malone is not ready yet for that
[03:29] <Kamion> sivang: not pre-breezy.
[03:29] <Kamion> and not before the Malone folks give the say-so
[03:29] <Diziet> OMG someone is complaining that keyboard accelerators don't work in firefox in non-Latin locales.  Joy.
[03:29] <daniels> firefox input handling bites, news at 11
[03:30] <daniels> i think it still uses core keyboard stuff and attempts to pretend that xkb doesn't exist
[03:30] <daniels> given that lalt and ralt do entirely different things
[03:30] <Diziet> I wonder what the odds are of me being able to fix it in less than all week.
[03:30] <daniels> (lalt+larrow -> back, ralt+larrow -> nothing)
[03:31] <infinity> daniels : ralt+left works here.
[03:31] <infinity> daniels : Don't you have ralt remapped as compose?
[03:31] <Kamion> someday I must attempt to actually understand non-vaguely-Latin keyboard handling
[03:31] <Kamion> but I need to steal daniels' brain first
[03:31] <daniels> infinity: shut up.  shut up, and shut up.
[03:32] <infinity> You're welcome.
[03:32] <daniels> infinity: (in happier news, you're obviously more qualified than me to assist Kamion with his project.)
[03:33] <jdub> GOOD MORNING FREEDOM LOVERS!
[03:33] <Kamion> Sheesh. Evidently nobody ever looks at the list of available tasks after a fresh breezy install, or they'd all be complaining about how mad the list is.
[03:33] <daniels> Kamion: it's fairly easy.  for latin and non-latin alike, you get keycodes down the wire.  you get a n x n matrix of what that keycode translates to with various groups and shift levels.  you establish what group and shift level you're in, and use that to get a keysym out of there.  you can then see what your modifier state is (e.g. is alt down) with another cal.
[03:33] <daniels> s/cal/&l/
[03:34] <bddebian> Morning
[03:34] <Kamion> see, it's the way you started that with "fairly easy" that disturbs me
[03:34] <seb128> hey hey hey jdub :)
[03:35] <infinity> Kamion : Now it's your turn.  Tell us about debbugs.
[03:35] <seb128> hi bddebian
[03:35] <bddebian> Hello seb128
[03:35] <Kamion> infinity: heh
[03:35] <pitti> seb128: question: to decide whether sleep is supported, does gdm use "pmi query suspend" or "pmi capabilities"?
[03:37] <seb128> pitti: query sleep and query hibernate
[03:38] <seb128> pitti: does it make any difference?
[03:38] <pitti> seb128: yes
[03:38] <bddebian> pitti: Feeling rejected? ;-)
[03:38] <pitti> seb128: at least on ppc, "pmi query sleep" will return whether the laptop would go to sleep when closing the lid
[03:38] <daniels> Kamion: well, once you get the idea that you just get handed down 'alright, you're currently looking at Alt+q' off the wire, it largely makes sense
[03:38] <pitti> seb128: whereas capabilities (should) return whether the laptop *can* sleep
[03:38] <daniels> Kamion: it's just the implementation details of XKB (i.e. hidden from external users) that really do one's head in
[03:39] <pitti> seb128: so even if I configure my laptop to not sleep when I close the lid, it should sleep when I explicitly ask for it in gdm
[03:39] <seb128> pitti: /usr/sbin/pmi is a bash piece of code
[03:39] <pitti> seb128: ATM, pmi is utterly broken on ppc anyway (I just saw the code the first time), but I will fix that
[03:39] <seb128> and capability does
[03:39] <seb128> capabilities () {
[03:39] <seb128>         for i in "hibernate" "suspend"; do
[03:39] <seb128>                 query $i
[03:39] <seb128>                 [ $result -eq 0 ]  && caps="$caps $i"
[03:39] <pitti> seb128: right
[03:39] <seb128> pitti: ie: it calls query ....
[03:39] <seb128> what you say is weird
[03:40] <seb128> why should it be different to a call to query ?
[03:40] <pitti> seb128: but either the semantics of query is wrong, or capabilities should not use query
[03:40] <pitti> seb128: at least on ppc, query asks the action when closing the lid, it does not query wheter the action is possible
[03:40] <seb128> pitti: "query asks the action"?
[03:40] <pitti> seb128: and pmi has no manpage, so I am not sure what the actual semantics of query should be
[03:41] <pitti> seb128: ok, one example:
[03:41] <Kamion> seb128: note that the /usr/sbin/pmi in powermanagement-interface_powerpc.deb is not the same as the /usr/sbin/pmi in powermanagement-interface_i386.deb
[03:41] <Kamion> shell script or not
[03:41] <pitti> Kamion: right, but that part of the logic is the same
[03:41] <seb128> oh
[03:41] <seb128> didn't know about that
[03:41] <seb128> that's a piece of shell, I supposed it was the same
[03:41] <seb128> thanks Kamion
[03:41] <pitti> seb128: so if I configure my laptop to sleep on lid closing, pmi query suspend will return 1
[03:42] <Kamion> -                [ $result -eq 0 ]  && caps="$caps $i"
[03:42] <pitti> seb128: but if I say "don't sleep on lid close", pmi query suspend will return 0
[03:42] <Kamion> +                [ "$result" -eq 0 ]  && caps="$caps $i"
[03:42] <Kamion> (from the diff)
[03:42] <seb128> query sleep return 1 if ACPI_SLEEP is defined
[03:42] <Kamion> at least having synchronised quoting between the two would be nice
[03:42] <pitti> ok, so it seems that query on powerpc has just the wrong semantics
[03:43] <pitti> I don't see a reason why it shuold return the configured action instead of the capability 
[03:43] <pitti> Kamion, seb128: ^ agree?
[03:43] <Kamion> haven't really been following that closely, sorry
[03:43] <seb128> what you describe seems complicated to me
[03:43] <seb128> it does that
[03:43] <seb128>                         if [ "$ACPI_SLEEP" = true ] ; then
[03:43] <seb128>                                 result=0
[03:43] <seb128>                         else
[03:43] <seb128>                                 result=1
[03:44] <mx|gone> pitti: want me to explain it?
[03:44] <pitti> seb128: ah, ok
[03:44] <seb128> after sourcing /etc/default/acpi-support
[03:44] <seb128> 
[03:44] <pitti> mx|gone: I underrstand the problem
[03:44] <mx|gone> ok
[03:44] <pitti> seb128: alright, then the powerpc variant is just plain broken
[03:44] <seb128> mx|gone: I don't get what you configure and how
[03:44] <pitti> seb128: I fix it, thanks
[03:44] <seb128> np
[03:44] <mx|gone> seb128: pitti is taking care of it
[03:44] <pitti> mx|gone: ok, I throw out all the ONCOVERACTION mess
[03:45] <pitti> mx|gone: while I am at it, I can also add suspend to disk support
[03:52] <pitti> elmo: can you please sync powerprefs?
[03:57] <ogra> do we have a bug about firefox always wanting to open isos in fileroller ?
[04:01] <Mithrandir> seb128: I need to clean up, the openh323 builds keeps running me out of disk space.
[04:02] <mvo> Keybuk: do you think #15899 should be fixed now even though it changes a string (string-freeze etc)?
[04:02] <seb128> Mithrandir: k, no hurry
[04:03] <Kamion> ogra: ok, you'll now get Edubuntu DVDs on Wednesday and Saturday afternoons
[04:03] <ogra> yay
[04:03] <ogra> where do i find them ? 
[04:04] <Kamion> they'll land in http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/dvd/current/
[04:04] <ogra> ah, great :)
[04:04] <Keybuk> mvo: no, I think it can wait
[04:04] <ogra> Kamion, that was a real nice surprise, thanks a lot :)
[04:06] <mvo> Keybuk: thanks
[04:07] <Kamion> not a problem
[04:07] <ogra> nope, but a present i didnt expect :)
[04:07] <Kamion> in general you just need to ask if there's something on cdimage that Ubuntu/Kubuntu have but Edubuntu doesn't
[04:08] <Kamion> live builds would take a bit more work, since they're not entirely my responsibility; but anything else can generally be done
[04:08] <ogra> Kamion, i'm very carefull how much of your time i grab, in case i need you later again ;)
[04:09] <infinity> Live builds are cacke, assuming they'll work.
[04:09] <ogra> and the DVD was no high prio...
[04:09] <Kamion> "cacke"?
[04:09] <infinity> cake, too.
[04:09] <Kamion> ah :)
[04:09] <infinity> If someone wants/needs edubuntu livefs builds, they just need to mail me the particulars.
[04:10] <Kamion> (however, more builds does mean more testing load for you guys)
[04:11] <HiddenWolf> Lathiat, sorry for dissapearing on you right after asking a question.
[04:12] <ogra> infinity, i'm planning a liveCD for promotion, but that will be a customized one since i need to make setup changes that cant be done in the default setup (there are lots of servers in edubuntu that would need custom confgs to run froma live CD) ...
[04:22] <ogra> seb128, what happened to this nautilus extension that enabled users to share dirs via samba ? is that dead ? i havent seen anything anymore...
[04:22] <ogra> (i thought it could be ready for breezy, it looked so good)
[04:23] <Keybuk> I remember one that shared folders via howl
[04:23] <Keybuk> not via samba
[04:24] <mvo> ogra: isn't that in breezy already? it's part of gnome-system-tools (share folders via smb/nfs)
[04:24] <ogra> mvo, nope, thats something else
[04:24] <mvo> ogra: what's the difference?
[04:24] <ogra> mvo, you could just right click folders and share them
[04:24] <infinity> Kamion : What is this "testing" you speak of?
[04:24] <ogra> i even forgot the name of the tool 
[04:25] <mvo> ogra: righ-clicking on a folder gives me "share folder" here
[04:25] <ogra> infinity, DVD testing for the edubuntu DVD
[04:25] <infinity> ogra : They don't have sarcasm in your country, do they?
[04:25] <mvo> infinity: we are germans
[04:26] <infinity> Right, forbidden from smiling and such.  I keep forgetting.
[04:26] <ogra> mvo, oh, right it gives me "ordner teilen" here what a terrible odd translation 
[04:26] <mvo> ogra: no, that will split it into half
[04:26] <mvo> infinity: exactly
[04:26] <ogra> infinity, we lost the remainings of this ability after the election here
[04:27] <ogra> mvo, hmm, and it uses gksuod...
[04:27] <ogra> *gksudo
[04:27] <mvo> ogra: yes, no way around that, it adds stuff to /etc/samba/smb.conf
[04:27] <ogra> bah
[04:28] <ogra> samba needs a redesign to accept configs in the users dir if enabled...
[04:30] <ronalde> OT gnu make question: I try to escape filenames containing parenthesis, ie: file(1) in targets and sources in my Makefile. tried $(subst ...) and substitution references ... any clues
[04:30] <Kamion> use proper quoting around variable names, i.e. "$(variable)" not $(variable)
[04:31] <Kamion> when they're being passed to the shell, that is
[04:31] <ronalde> Kamion: that's it ... great!
[04:33] <\sh> Diziet: ping...regarding #15916, why can't we integrate it?
[04:36] <\sh> Diziet: thinking about a nice integrated desktop we should avoid those differences...actually sending those patches upstream is as well good and ok
[04:36] <Diziet> \sh: `why can't we integrate it' ?  Integrate what ?
[04:36] <\sh> Diziet: printing to pdf...
[04:36] <Diziet> *blink*
[04:36] <\sh> yeah, thats me ;-)
[04:37] <Diziet> Maybe it's this kind of thing that is in the 50kloc of patch between upstream's and our firefox.
[04:37] <Diziet> I don't think that this is the kind of work we ought to be trying to carry off in private patches.  Surely !
[04:37] <Diziet> Or are we trying to maintain a fork of firefox ?
[04:38] <Diziet> Also, is that bug report a request for someone to write the code to provide PDF as an output option ?
[04:38] <\sh> Diziet: well...we're working on an integrated, smooth desktop environment..so having print dialogs with the two options (.ps and .pdf) as default, and not in the browser...I think we should think about this
[04:39] <Diziet> I agree that having a PDF print option would be nice.  But the effort to maintain that ourselves is going to be disproportionate.
[04:39] <Diziet> Or is there some code already to do this, that you simply failed to give a reference to ?
[04:39] <\sh> Diziet: the question was, if it's possible, if so, what do we have to change? if it's only a configure option in about:config or somewhere in chrome: then we could do it easily..but if it's somethin to patch the code, then..we have to think to raise it as enhancement to upstream
[04:40] <azeem> \sh: Why not use GNOME's printing infrastructure?
[04:40] <Diziet> TBH I haven't looked because I can't think of any bad reason why anyone would disable it if the feature were present.
[04:40] <\sh> Diziet: well...it could be an option in chrome-configs to add...or to pull in the GNOME defaults
[04:41] <Diziet> az: If upstream firefox came with the option to do printing via Gnome then of course we'd turn that on (assuming it wasn't horridly broken).
[04:41] <\sh> azeem: well...the print dialog is quite different from the gnome ones...
[04:41] <azeem> \sh: oh
[04:41] <\sh> azeem: and I don't know if there is a compile option to pull the gnomeprint thingies in
[04:41] <Diziet> Again, I haven't looked at that because I assume that whoever had this package before me would have turned it on if such an option existed.
[04:41] <Diziet> It's not a simple matter of `pulling in some thingies'.
[04:42] <Diziet> If it is then I'd be happy to do it, but perhaps not at this stage of Breezy's release.
[04:42] <daniels> s/perhaps //
[04:42] <Diziet> If you think this feature is important then I would definitely encourage you to look into making sure it's available in the next upstream.
[04:43] <Diziet> daniels: Indeed.  I'm trying not to sound too negative here :-).
[04:43] <\sh> Diziet: I will look into it...if it's only a small change in the default configs, we could bring it in even for breezy (when it gives us a more smooth and integrated desktop)
[04:43] <daniels> Diziet: arguably encouraging someone to do work for breezy by omission and then having to break it to them *later* that it can't go in is worse.
[04:44] <Kamion> that would be a small change to use a presumably fairly large untested code path
[04:44] <Diziet> It'd be a new code path we haven't tested.  I know that firefox's ps generation is pretty flakey anyway; do we have any reason to believe the pdf will not be even worse ?
[04:44] <Diziet> daniels: Point.
[04:45] <Kamion> Mithrandir: CDs rebuilding and should have openoffice.org2-java-common on them this time, in case that's how you noticed this morning
[04:45] <azeem> \sh: IMHO Ubuntu decided against a integrated desktop when choosing Firefox over Epiphany
[04:45] <\sh> Diziet: as I said, when it's only a runtime configuration option we should have a look and test 
[04:46] <\sh> actually...I see it more in dapper then in breezy anyways
[04:46] <Diziet> You're going to have a very hard job to convince me to do anything along these lines for Breezy.  And even then you'd have to convince the release people too.
[04:47] <Diziet> I haven't looked into it in any detail, but I would expect us to take a new upstream for Dapper.  We'll want to review our patches and try to reduce them as much as possible IMHO.
[04:48] <Diziet> So do look into it for upstream.  If you convince them within the right timescales then we'll include it automatically.
[04:54] <zyga> mvo: hey
[04:55] <zyga> mvo: I've noticed another irregular section in synaptic (the last one was 'translations')
[04:56] <jbailey> ogra: Hey - Do you know anything about unionfs and ltsp?
[04:56] <jbailey> ogra: I got a strange email from a guy asking how they worked together, and I haven't a clue.  I can ask him to go to the forums, though.
[04:56] <ogra> i only heard it being mentioned :)
[04:56] <zyga> mvo: is it too late for a patch? I know we're in upstream freeze and in string freeze probably but this is a minor and trivial fix *but* it adds to polishing and nice feel IMHO
[04:57] <jbailey> zyga: If it breaks string freeze, and army of translators will gnaw off your toes.
[04:57] <ogra> jbailey, i guess mdz can tell you how much (if any) unionfs is being used already in our ltsp
[04:57] <jbailey> ogra: It's not a customer email, it's a random email, so forums are probably the best place for him.
[04:58] <ogra> i know there were some serious bugs in the beginning of the release cycle in unionfs
[04:58] <jbailey> Just that if you knew right now, I'd reply right now with better info =)
[04:58] <ogra> you could point him to the edubuntu-devel list
[04:59] <zyga> jbailey: otherwise an army of translators (me included) will bash you for untranslatable string
[04:59] <\sh> Diziet: /quit laters
[05:00] <zyga> the section I'm talking about is 'restricted' it contains restricted kernel modules
[05:25] <jsgotangco> good night
[05:30] <pitti> mjg59: here?
[05:41] <nalioth> anybody heard of yesterdays updates killin the networking in ppc breezy?
[05:50] <HiddenWolf> daniels: ping
[05:52] <HiddenWolf> Last xorg update broke for me
[05:52] <mjg59> pitti: Hi
[06:00] <pitti> seb128: since recently I get a shiny on-screen display if I press the volume keys on my laptop; do you know which Gnome program is responsible for that?
[06:00] <pitti> seb128: the problem is that both that Gnome program and pbbuttonsd respond to the mute key; the effect is that it does not work since mute is toggled twice
[06:02] <spayne> will OOo 2 get a GTK file selector?
[06:03] <mjg59> pitti: gnome-settings-daemon
[06:03] <mjg59> (I believe)
[06:03] <shackan> pitti, gnome-settings-daemon
[06:03] <ogra> pitti, wasnt the selinux team planning to have a patched kernel image for universe ? do you know anything about it ? 
[06:03] <pitti> mjg59: ah, could be; so I can rely on it running
[06:04] <pitti> ogra: what for? selinux is built into the standard kernel
[06:04] <ogra> pitti, ax and grsec ? 
[06:04] <pitti> mjg59: then I just disable the mute key in pbbuttonsd; that will piss off people who don't use gnome, though
[06:04] <ogra> pax even
[06:04] <seb128> pitti: ? you mean the volume popup? it's here since warty ...
[06:04] <pitti> ogra: no, I had a kernel patch for that a while ago
[06:05] <spayne> doko: ping
[06:05] <doko> Mithrandir: do we need the second ubuntu string in the OOo2-amd64 packages?
[06:05] <pitti> seb128: hm, it didn't interfere with pbbuttonsd in hoary, at least
[06:05] <seb128> pitti: oh, you never set a key for that before maybe
[06:05] <doko> spayne: ?
[06:05] <spayne> doko: will OOo 2 get a GTK file selecto?
[06:05] <spayne> doko: will OOo 2 get a GTK file selector?
[06:05] <pitti> seb128: I'm not sure whether to disable it in gnome-settings-daemon or pbbuttonsd
[06:05] <seb128> pitti: that's the same issue than sleep, etc
[06:06] <seb128> same piece of code doing the action
[06:06] <doko> spayne: it does have one, but it's not enabled by default for stability reasons. you can enable it in the preferences
[06:06] <pitti> seb128: not quite - if I disable it in pbbuttonsd, I will annoy e. g. xfce users; if I disable it in g-s-d, I will annoy users who change pbbuttonsd to pmud, or whatever
[06:06] <pitti> seb128: and you would not get a fancy picture for muting
[06:08] <spayne> doko: thanks
[06:08] <spayne> doko: i also found i could change the icon set :-)
[06:08] <zyga> what is the status of dbus in breezy, is it likely to change soon?
[06:09] <Kamion> zyga: it'd better not; it's quite desktop-infrastructural
[06:10] <seb128> pitti: changing GNOME would piss GNOME users
[06:10] <pitti> seb128: I disabled it in pbbuttonsd for now
[06:10] <zyga> Kamion: I'm trying to port a package from hoary to breezy and ran into one undefined constant ...
[06:11] <seb128> pitti: ie: what would happen for people using g-s-d on a normal keyboard if you hack it?
[06:11] <seb128> pitti: k
[06:11] <Kamion> zyga: I don't know anything much about dbus itself; just speaking from a release-management point of view
[06:11] <zyga> Kamion: okay, thanks
[06:13] <Curalton> is the ncurses parition manager from the installer available as standalone somewhere? if so what is it called?
[06:15] <Kamion> Curalton: not as a .deb, no
[06:15] <Kamion> we may manage to make that happen in dapper, as part of the ubuntu-express project
[06:15] <elmo> doko: ?
[06:15] <Kamion> it'll be called partman
[06:16] <doko> elmo: pong
[06:16] <elmo> doko: 'sup with rrd uninstallables?  shouldn't they be okay now the new fontforge is in?
[06:17] <doko> elmo: ttf-dejavu sync and move to main is required before these syncs
[06:18] <elmo> did you request the sync already?
[06:18] <Curalton> Kamion: aww, shame since it is the best i have seen so far. i guess same goes for the debian/sarge installer partmanager?
[06:19] <doko> elmo: yes, and it was confirmed between the lines by mdz as well, same mail where he approved schoolbell and schooltool
[06:19] <doko> mail from yesterday evening
[06:20] <Curalton> ah, indeed "http://packages.debian.org/testing/debian-installer/partman" says " Do not install it on a normal Debian system."
[06:21] <Kamion> Curalton: yeah, it's the same thing
[06:21] <Kamion> (basically)
[06:21] <Kamion> partman's been renamed to partman-base post-sarge to free up the name for a future partman.deb
[06:22] <Curalton> ok, thanks for the info. back to fdisk and a piece of paper :)
[06:23] <pitti> seb128: bah, this is so annoying; same story for the display brightness
[06:24] <seb128> pitti: as said before, you will probably get that for a whole bunch of functions
[06:24] <seb128> pitti: if both want to take actions ...
[06:24] <pitti> seb128: I don't want to disable everything in pbbuttonsd, this will annoy console users
[06:24] <seb128> pitti: but what is pbbuttonsd useful for?
[06:25] <pitti> seb128: pbbuttonsd could check for pidof gnome-settings-daemon and not handle keys if there is one running
[06:25] <pitti> seb128: it handles power management and CD ejection
[06:25] <seb128> doesn't fix your console usecase
[06:25] <pitti> seb128: i. e. suspend to ram, cpu clock frequency, etc.
[06:26] <pitti> seb128: why not?
[06:26] <seb128> I mean you can be on a VT with g-s-d running somewhere on the box (other user logged, etc)
[06:26] <pitti> seb128: right, but g-s-d will react to it
[06:26] <seb128> no if you have switched to a VT
[06:26] <pitti> seb128: I meant, pbbuttonsd should stay active if you are not logged into gnome
[06:27] <pitti> seb128: oh, I just see that the volume keys are not handled when swtiching to a VT; the brightness keys are, though
[06:27] <seb128> I would say the desktop install is a GNOME desktop, if people have other usecase they can install pbbuttonsd, no ?
[06:27] <pitti> seb128: I suspect the kernel itself could handle the brightness keys
[06:27] <pitti> seb128: we can't uninstall it, we would lose power management
[06:27] <seb128> hum, k
[06:28] <seb128> so let's do your hack, if g-s-d is running ignore the volume/etc
[06:28] <pitti> seb128: I can only deactivate brightness and audio keys completely, but that is annoying, too
[06:28] <pitti> darn
[06:28] <mx|gone> pitti: here's a thought... is there a way for g-s-d to listen to some signal from pbb and show a status window?
[06:29] <pitti> mx|gone: no idea; status window?
[06:29] <mx|gone> pitti: you know, the little window that pops up showing where the brightness is and such
[06:29] <pitti> mx|gone: ah, that one
[06:29] <mx|gone> s/where the/the level of the/
[06:29] <mx|gone> pitti: kind of like how gtkpbbuttons does it?
[06:30] <mx|gone> of course, then g-s-d would have to depend on pbbuttonsd on ppc
[06:30] <seb128> you want to change it to catch pbutton signal instead of the keys?
[06:30] <seb128> that's not an option
[06:30] <mx|gone> ok, n/m
[06:30] <seb128> you can change the keys from the GNOME UI 
[06:30] <mx|gone> seb128: right... and you can unset all the mm keys
[06:31] <seb128> that would not work with your pbutton/signal stuff
[06:31] <seb128> change a key here should change the pbutton config
[06:31] <mx|gone> sjoerd: what do you use?
[06:31] <seb128> no, no, not a good idea
[06:31] <pitti> sjoerd: how do you do power management?
[06:32] <sjoerd> cpufreqd for freq scaling, pmud to make the laptop sleep in some cases
[06:32] <pitti> we can't change that for breezy
[06:32] <sjoerd> and a small deamon for auto display brightness, but that should go in g-p-m ...
[06:32] <mx|gone> seb128: I agree that changing a key in the GNOME config should change pbbuttonsd config, but how do you get a status update when the level changes from a key press?
[06:33] <seb128> mx|gone: I say that would be a mess, not a good way to work on
[06:34] <mx|gone> hrmm
[06:34] <mx|gone> seb128: so, basically powerpc won't have status updates of brighness and volume changes
[06:35] <seb128> ?
[06:35] <seb128> the GNOME dialog doesn't work?
[06:35] <seb128> nobody bugged about that
[06:35] <pitti> seb128: it works
[06:35] <seb128> so you get updates, no?
[06:35] <mx|gone> well...
[06:35] <pitti> mx|gone: when I press volume keys, I see the status icon
[06:36] <pitti> I don't need one for brightness, I see the screen brightness
[06:36] <mx|gone> pitti: yeah, but both gnome and pbbuttonsd see the key press and change the volume...
[06:36] <pitti> seb128: so g-s-d detects whether X or the console is currently active, I suppose?
[06:36] <seb128> mx|gone: pitti said he'll trash the volume part of pbbuttonsd
[06:36] <mx|gone> seb128: ooooh
[06:36] <pitti> seb128: since it seems to not react to the keys when I switch to a vt
[06:37] <pitti> mx|gone: right now I only disabled the mute key
[06:37] <seb128> pitti: g-s-d grab X events ...
[06:37] <zyga> arghhh
[06:37] <zyga> doing /etc/init.d/udev restart just crashed the kernel
[06:37] <pitti> seb128: ah, I see
[06:37] <mx|gone> pitti: nice work :)
[06:37] <mx|gone> pitti: I'm sure you said this earlier, but will this disable the keys on console as well?
[06:38] <pitti> mx|gone: hm, the only obviouos nonintrusive solution seems to be to deactivate brightness keys in pbbuttonsd for now
[06:38] <pitti> mx|gone: yes, disabled keys will only work in Gnome then, not in VT, nor in XFCE, not even in gdm
[06:38] <pitti> and that sucks
[06:38] <mx|gone> yeah...
[06:38] <pitti> actually we should disable it in g-s-d, this would be much more consistent
[06:39] <seb128> pitti: don't touch g-s-d 
[06:39] <pitti> i. e. g-s-d disables it if pbbuttonsd is running
[06:39] <mx|gone> if only g-s-d could respond to a dbus signal or something...
[06:39] <seb128> pitti: that would mean breaking the UI freeze to remove the options from the UI
[06:39] <pitti> bah
[06:39] <mx|gone> or if we could block pbbuttonsd from getting the key presses when GNOME is up
[06:39] <pitti> mx|gone: doesn't fully fix it
[06:40] <mx|gone> pitti: really?
[06:40] <seb128> pitti: and that would piss some users who configure these actions from the GNOME UI
[06:40] <pitti> mx|gone: if pbbuttonsd checks pidof g-s-d, then VT is still broken
[06:40] <mx|gone> pitti: no no... is there a way to keep the keypresses from propogating to pbbuttonsd when g-s-d handles them?
[06:40] <Curalton> pitti: ah, while you are at pbbuttonds problems, one problem i noticed was that while mouseemu is running (blocks touchpad while typing) pbbuttonds brighness and volume keys were broken, ftr :)
[06:40] <Curalton> (ibook2 g3)
[06:40] <pitti> mx|gone: I doubt it, pbbuttonsd reads directly from the kernel event interface
[06:41] <zyga> yet another firefox is ot
[06:41] <zyga> out
[06:41] <pitti> Curalton: are you sure? please stop pbbuttonsd and try again
[06:41] <sladen> daniels: I thought the whole point of modular Xorg was so that you didn't have to download the whole lot each time ;-)
[06:41] <dilinger> spayne: --- Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked due to spam problems, but you can always message a staffer. Please register! ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )
[06:41] <spayne> dilinger: ping
[06:41] <spayne> dilinger: this is Seb Payne here :-)
[06:41] <dilinger> hi
[06:41] <spayne> dilinger: can we talk about ndiswrapper?
[06:41] <dilinger> sure
[06:42] <spayne> dilinger: in #dilseb
[06:42] <pitti> *sigh* /me cripples pbbuttonsd for the sake of "Gnome, I don't tolerate any other UI besides me"
[06:43] <seb128> spayne: are you the guy who blogged about openoffice beeing nicer on Suse? What is the difference? Do you have the -gnome package installed?
[06:43] <spayne> i got it sorted now
[06:43] <spayne> expect a post reedecing that statement
[06:43] <seb128> spayne: cool :)
[06:44] <seb128> pitti: hum, I could say the same about pbbuttonsd :p
[06:44] <pitti> seb128: but it is more generic than g-s-d, it works everywhere
[06:44] <pitti> :-)
[06:45] <seb128> pitti: and it's not integrated
[06:45] <dilinger> (have i mentioned that i hate this network?)
[06:45] <seb128> pitti: ie: it's not a desktop user stuff
[06:45] <pitti> seb128: I think we can do a proper solution in g-s-d in Dapper, but it is too intrusive for Breezy; agreed?
[06:45] <seb128> pitti: yep, BOF about it ?
[06:45] <Kamion> seb128: desktop software in "needing to talk to lower level software" shocker
[06:45] <pitti> seb128: would be nice; it is a mess right now
[06:45] <Kamion> :-)
[06:46] <seb128> heh
[06:46] <jdub> Kamion: strange architecture support software in "can't talk to anything" shocker :)
[06:46] <jdub> toshutils, anyone? :)
[06:46] <ogra> make a back and frontend ... and YAY you could put dbus in the middle :) 
[06:46] <pitti> jdub: pbbcmd is actually nice, you can query and control everything with it; you just have to use it
[06:46] <jdub> that's just crazy talk
[06:46] <Kamion> jdub: *shrug* you get to deal with it if you're writing power/settings management software
[06:47] <jdub> pitti: hopefully we can get g-p-m to support it
[06:47] <jdub> pitti: via hal
[06:47] <ogra> jdub, we will
[06:47] <pitti> let's also add a TCP interface, so that you can control the volume of your neighbor's PC
[06:47] <mjg59> jdub: And ROBOTS
[06:47] <jdub> mjg59: with NANOTEETH
[06:48] <ogra> pitti, bah and that from you ....
[06:48] <ogra> pitti, it should be encrypted at least :)
[06:48] <pitti> ogra: sure, we encrypt 1 bit to increase the brightness with 256 bit keys and digitally sign it
[06:49] <Kamion> what, so that you can't tell how your neighbours are controlling your other neighbours' volume? ;-)
[06:49] <pitti> Kamion: don't worry, of course we will have a higher level control API for that :-)
[06:49] <ogra> pitti, yay, thats finally a reason to convince users to use gpg :)
[06:49] <pitti> JaneW: where can we add BOFs again?
[06:50] <ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/BOFs
[06:50] <mjg59> Right. I definitely won't be at UDZ
[06:50] <pitti> thanks
[06:50] <mjg59> Uh, UBZ
[06:50] <jdub> mjg59: :-(
[06:51] <ogra> mjg59, :/
[06:53] <pitti> seb128: ok, BoF added to the wiki
[06:53] <Curalton> pitti: mouseemu / pbbuttonsd issue: yes, certainly conflicting. and even if i restart pbbuttonsd after starting mouseemu it still doesnt work
[06:53] <Curalton> pitti: "it" being brightness, volume, eject cd key
[06:53] <seb128> pitti: thanks
[06:54] <Curalton> pitti: versions: mouseemu 0.15-2, pbbuttonsd 0.7.1-1
[06:54] <pitti> Curalton: hm, that sounds tricky; if it does not even work without pbbuttonsd, there is nothing we can fix in pbbuttonsd...
[06:55] <Curalton> pitti: err, these keys work with pbbuttonsd alone. only if mouseemu is running in parallel the keys stop working
[06:56] <pitti> mvo: can you please set me as auto-assignee of pbbuttonsd? after that day I know the guts of it
[06:57] <Curalton> pitti: ftr, before you scream at me, this is a debian/sid, not breezy
[06:57] <seb128> pitti: I can do it
[06:57] <pitti> seb128: oh, you too? nice
[06:58] <seb128> pitti: yeah, I had to set the QA for quite a bunch of GNOME stuff for the desktop-bugs list ... :)
[06:59] <Keybuk> *giggle*
[06:59] <Keybuk> NotVersionedError: <unprintable instance object>
[06:59] <Keybuk> Python censorship?
[06:59] <mvo> pitti: yes
[07:00] <seb128> mvo: I've done it
[07:00] <mvo> seb128: faster as usual :p
[07:00] <seb128> :)
[07:01] <jdub> http://www.flickr.com/photos/linuxman/45331847/
[07:01] <jdub> since when did wanda return?
[07:02] <Keybuk> jdub: if you type "free the fish" into the run dialog
[07:02] <jdub> heh
[07:02] <jdub> oh man
[07:02] <jdub> ha ha ha ha
[07:02] <jdub> okay, so
[07:02] <dholbach> re
[07:02] <jdub> removing gss while gss has the screen locked
[07:02] <jdub> not a good idea
[07:02] <jdub> "Where is the lock dialogue binary?"
[07:03] <mx|gone> jdub: ouch
[07:03] <infinity> jdub : Yeah, actually, "removing it while g-s-s is still running in the background" is enough for it to blow up.
[07:03] <jdub> hrm, didn't blow up for me
[07:03] <infinity> jdub : After you switch, you need to kill gss, or log out and back in, or the screensaver kicks in later and you can't unlock it.
[07:03] <jdub> just didn't let me back in :-)
[07:04] <infinity> Well, by "blow up", I mean "doesn't unlock"
[07:04] <jdub> yeah, killed it from ssh
[07:04] <ogra> kill it 
[07:04] <ogra> ah
[07:04] <infinity> But yeah, the screensaver doesn't actually have to be on/locked when you swap.
[07:04] <jdub> yeah
[07:05] <jdub> never anticipated saying that before
[07:05] <ogra> heh
[07:05] <ogra> YAY
[07:05] <jdub> ogra: ah, nice bg on xss
[07:06] <ogra> sabdfl didnt like it
[07:06] <jdub> ogra: can we, ah, s/Someone else/Switch user/ ? :-)
[07:06] <mx|gone> jdub: yeah, one thing I like about xss is that when it's locked, you can just type in your password... you don't have to wait for the dialog to pop up
[07:06] <ogra> thats why we switched
[07:06] <ogra> jdub, sure, i'll wait for mpt input on it i think there will be more tweakage needed
[07:06] <mx|gone> ogra: it is?
[07:07] <jdub> ogra: "Say, instead of switching to software that isn't ready yet, how about I do another iteration of the background image?" :-)
[07:07] <jdub> ogra: not sure more tweakage is worth it with xss at this stage
[07:07] <ogra> jdub, i did... 
[07:07] <ogra> jdub, i also pointed out that gss is lacking configurability
[07:07] <Kamion> mdz: your casper arch mirror seems to be out of date again; do you not update it in a commit hook?
[07:07] <infinity> mvo : Erm, when did "Add Applications" migrate out of system tools into the main Applications menu again?
[07:07] <jdub> hey, if cliff's splash is good, that might be a worth bg for the xss lock dialogue
[07:08] <seb128> infinity: like 1 week ago
[07:08] <ogra> infinity, when sabdfl asked for it
[07:08] <infinity> Wow, I'm observant.
[07:08] <infinity> The clutter annoys me.  Oh well.
[07:08] <jdub> infinity: pay close attention! i'll take your brain to another dimension!
[07:08] <mvo> infinity: what ogra said
[07:08] <zyga> mvo: hey, did you get my message about synaptic?
[07:08] <mvo> zyga: which one?
[07:08] <ogra> jdub, its black... not a good iea for the lock dialogue
[07:08] <seb128> infinity: edit /etc/xdg/menus/applications.menu if you want to drop it
[07:09] <ogra> idea even
[07:09] <jdub> ogra: the gnome splash
[07:09] <zyga> mvo: about missing 'restricted' section
[07:09] <ogra> oh, we have a new one ? 
[07:09] <jdub> we will
[07:09] <mx|gone> is there a reason that "search & indexing" is in "Accessories" and "Preferences"?
[07:09] <infinity> seb128 : Yeah, I know how to move it, I just disagree with the default.  Oh well, can't please everyone.
[07:09] <mvo> zyga: hm, no. when did you send it?
[07:10] <ogra> jdub, actually the gss discussion started with sabdfl saying that cliff should put the lock pic on his todo list
[07:10] <zyga> mvo: ah, it was here on #u-d 
[07:10] <jdub> ah, ok, no one told me :)
[07:10] <zyga> mvo: the short story: missing 'restricted' section
[07:10] <zyga> mvo: the long story: string-freeze ;] 
[07:10] <mvo> zyga: can you /msg me the details?
[07:10] <ogra> jdub, so we should forward that request to him once sabdfl approved the switch back
[07:10] <zyga> sure
[07:11] <jdub> ogra: i'll mention it anyway (mdz switched u-m anyway)
[07:11] <ogra> yup
[07:11] <mdz> Kamion: no, I do not update it in a commit hook
[07:11] <ogra> oh, that reminds me, i need to switch edubuntu-meta...
[07:11] <mdz> morning all
[07:11] <ogra> morning mdz 
[07:12] <WaterSevenUb> mvo, will u be able tu upload the .desktop files I sent you soon? :-)
[07:12] <mx|gone> is there a "Ubuntu Weekly News"?
[07:12] <mdz> Kamion: I prefer not to have commits to a local archive be dependent on ssh connections to rookery
[07:12] <jdub> mx|gone: not atm
[07:12] <ogra> mx|gone, ubuntu taraffic ... but thats rather monthly and far behind
[07:13] <ogra> traffic too...
[07:13] <mvo> WaterSevenUb: I think so :)
[07:13] <jdub> meanwhile
[07:13] <jdub> *cough*
[07:13] <jdub> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/
[07:13] <jdub> *cough*
[07:13] <jdub> ssshhh :-)
[07:13] <ogra> FRIDGE !
[07:13] <seb128> hi mdz
[07:13] <jdub> mx|gone: keep your eye on that site :)
[07:13] <ogra> whaa, how do i get rid of the fish on my desktop now ? 
[07:14] <mx|gone> jdub: thanks :)
[07:14] <ogra> jdub, where is the coke logo ? 
[07:14] <jdub> heh
[07:14] <ogra> :)
[07:14] <jdub> that site was so annoying to see :-)
[07:14] <ogra> yup... they advertise it on tv every night here
[07:15] <ogra> hahaha, if you click the fish it flees :)
[07:15] <Kamion> mdz: commit hooks do not have that effect
[07:16] <mdz> Kamion: can you give me the one-liner?
[07:16] <Kamion> mdz: I do basically 'case $1 in commit|import|tag) baz archive-mirror -a "$ARCH_ARCHIVE" "$(baz parse-package-name --package-version "$ARCH_REVISION")" ;; esac' in .arch-params/hook, and it just gives me an error when it can't talk to rookery, but otherwise commits fine
[07:17] <mdz> Kamion: an error, or a timeout followed by an error?
[07:17] <mdz> I suppose I could fork it into the background
[07:17] <Kamion> oh, it might timeout. easy enough to ctrl-c though, baz doesn't care at that point
[07:17] <Kamion> it's already done the actual commit
[07:17] <mdz> I don't want it to block
[07:18] <Kamion> hmm, I generally don't care
[07:18] <pitti> mdz: you could do a ping -c 1 before
[07:18] <Kamion> I'll ctrl-c it if it bothers me
[07:19] <mdz> Kamion: anyway, mirror updated now
[07:19] <mdz> updating, even
[07:19] <Kamion> ta
[07:19] <Kamion> I have a quick gnome-screensaver fix for you - not that it matters for breezy now, but it'll matter later
[07:20] <ogra> Kamion, ?
[07:20] <Kamion> ogra: for casper. gconftool-2 needs to be run as the ubuntu user not as root
[07:20] <ogra> yup
[07:20] <ogra> since its for the session...
[07:20] <ogra> didnt i mention that ? 
[07:21] <Kamion> in fact that also applies to gnome-panel-data
[07:22] <Amaranth> "In addition, some regressions introduced by previous 1.0.x security updates have been resolved."
[07:22] <Amaranth> 1.0.7 looks useful if anyone is still having problems
[07:22] <Amaranth> with firefox, that is
[07:22] <pitti> Amaranth: we will get it soon, I hope
[07:23] <infinity> pitti : Did I just hear you volunteering?
[07:23] <pitti> infinity: I hoped to bribe Diziet somehow
[07:23] <Kamion> mdz: colin.watson@canonical.com--2005/casper--gconftool-as-user--0
[07:24] <pitti> infinity: I can do it of course, but that will mean another day of updates
[07:24] <infinity> pitti : Does 1.0.7 have any security updates you haven't already backported?
[07:24] <mdz> Kamion: what broke this?
[07:24] <mdz> it used to work
[07:25] <Kamion> mdz: really? strange, I don't think it's new behaviour on gconftool-2's part, and the behaviour makes perfect sense
[07:25] <Kamion> I haven't tested the gnome-panel-data change; I have tested the gnome-screensaver change (since today's live CD happens to have gnome-screensaver on it still)
[07:25] <ogra> Kamion, it depends _where_ you set it...
[07:25] <Kamion>     su ubuntu 'gconftool-2 -t bool -s /apps/panel/global/disable_lock_screen true'
[07:25] <ogra> you can set it in a global schema dir as root
[07:25] <Kamion> hmm
[07:26] <Kamion> maybe that change was wrong then
[07:26] <ogra> or set it with no schema dir as the user
[07:26] <mdz> Kamion: oh, I thought you were talking about the gnome-panel-data bit
[07:26] <ogra> mdz, same prob
[07:27] <jdub> it's probably worthwhile doing those as schema changes
[07:27] <Kamion> ok, gnome-panel-data bit reverted, it's already dealing with a schema change
[07:27] <Kamion>     su ubuntu 'gconftool-2 -t bool -s /apps/gnome-screensaver/lock false'
[07:27] <ogra> jdub, and have no loc icon in the menu ? 
[07:27] <Kamion> so should that be gconftool-2 -t bool -s /apps/gnome-screensaver/global/lock false?
[07:27] <ogra> lock
[07:27] <ogra> nope, wait a sec
[07:29] <ogra> gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/usr/share/gconf/local.default --type bool --set /apps/gnome-screensaver/global/lock false > /dev/null
[07:29] <ogra> err
[07:29] <ogra> local.defaults
[07:29] <ogra> run that as root...
[07:30] <Kamion> ew
[07:31] <ogra> and kill -HUP `pidof gconfd-2` afterwards if gconfd is alredy running
[07:32] <jdub> night all :-)
[07:32] <ogra> nigh jdub 
[07:32] <Kamion> seems like we might as well just run gconftool-2 as the user and then we can just leave the gconfd around
[07:33] <Kamion> as well as not having the nasty path hardcoding
[07:33] <ogra> i'm not sure if you can go without the HUP... seb128 `
[07:33] <ogra> ?
[07:33] <Kamion> this is running in casper, gconfd won't be running yet
[07:33] <ogra> ah, ok
[07:33] <ogra> then you can ignore it anyway
[07:34] <ogra> but thats the default location for sysadmin settings
[07:34] <ogra> so the right place to do such things
[07:34] <Kamion> gconftool doesn't start gconfd itself, does it?
[07:34] <ogra> it shouldnt...
[07:34] <Kamion> ok
[07:35] <Kamion> so how does 'gconftool-2 -t bool -s /apps/panel/global/disable_lock_screen true' work without the --config-source stuff?
[07:35] <seb128> ogra: what?
[07:35] <Kamion> and without --direct for that matter
[07:35] <ogra> seb128, do you need the -HUP for gconfd as a user ? 
[07:35] <dholbach> seb128: you wrote me some emails - that's SOOOO nice of you :)
[07:36] <seb128> SIGHUP reload the base if you change some schema
[07:36] <seb128> dholbach: yeah :)
[07:36] <ogra> Kamion, it uses the .gconfd dir in the users home
[07:37] <Kamion> that being root in this case
[07:37] <ogra> hmm...
[07:37] <ogra> so rather set it in the sysadmin schema dir...
[07:39] <ogra> Kamion, see the contents of /etc/gconf/2/path
[07:46] <mvo> Keybuk: now that you told us how to get wanda the fish, do you also know how to get rid of it again :P?
[07:47] <Keybuk> mvo: pkill gnome-panel
[07:47] <Keybuk> :p
[07:47] <mvo> Keybuk: lol
[07:51] <Kamion> hmm, well something broke there, a bunch of stuff died on desktop startup
[07:51] <Kamion> I give up, don't have time for this
[07:53] <ogra> Kamion, my first command didnt work for you ? 
[07:56] <Kamion> ogra: I don't know exactly what broke, and I don't have time to debug it
[07:56] <Kamion> since it was only for when we're using gnome-screensaver in the future
[07:57] <ogra> Kamion, the command i gave you should work out of the box, its the way to set gconf keys... you will also need it for the lock entry in the panel menu (thats not gss dependant)
[07:58] <Kamion> like I say, I don't have time. sorry. if you want to debug it, feel free
[07:59] <ogra> oki
[08:04] <jbailey> Is there a reasonable way to ask debuild to wrap all calls in linux32 from a configuration file?
[08:05] <infinity> Just call debuild with linux32, all subprocesses of linux32 should remain linux32'd (if the kernel is correct and sane)
[08:06] <jbailey> Right, but I keep forgetting and then having to track down why things suddenly broke on me.
[08:06] <jbailey> debulid is kind enouhg to call fakeroot for me, I'm hoping I can overload the mechanism to call linux32 as well
[08:07] <Kamion> that mechanism only applies to gain-root stuff at the moment
[08:07] <Kamion> I don't think it's there for all external commands
[08:08] <infinity> alias debuild='linux32 debuild' :)
[08:08] <jbailey> Ooo, good call.
[08:08] <infinity> (Might make it hard to linux64 it again later, but whatever)
[08:08] <jbailey> I use 'db' for my one with ccache, I'll just tweak that one.
[08:09] <jbailey> much better, thanks. =)
[08:09] <infinity> You have an alias to use ccache?
[08:10] <infinity> I just toss gcc* links in ~/bin
[08:10] <jbailey> I add a -e PATH=
[08:10] <jbailey> I don't keep ~/bin in my path
[08:10] <infinity> Which works great, as they're followed in chroots where ccache is installed, ignored in ones where they're dead links.
[08:10] <infinity> Ahh.
[08:11] <fabbione> mdz: ping?
[08:11] <elmo> I just export PATH=/usr/lib/ccache:$PATH
[08:11] <mdz> fabbione: ?
[08:11] <infinity> elmo : Oh, neat, I didn't know that link farm existed.
[08:12] <fabbione> mdz: yo.. out of curiosity,, do you have any plan to uplaod mythplugins to breezy? (0.18)
[08:12] <fabbione> mdz: as it is now they are not installable
[08:12] <infinity> fabbione : I asked the same thing a while ago, and he tried to rope me into comaintenance to fix it. :)
[08:12] <fabbione> infinity: i am ok with that :)
[08:13] <fabbione> mdz: i don't mind to spend time to understand how it works
[08:13] <fabbione> mdz: i started installing my first mythtv box today :)
[08:13] <fabbione> ogra: mdz maintains them officially :)
[08:13] <ogra> yup
[08:13] <ogra> thats what i told the guy
[08:13] <fabbione> ogra: why -motu when you can bitch^Wask the real guy :)
[08:14] <dholbach> fabbione: i'm working on the apt-get.org review - i will simply skip your repository, right? :)
[08:14] <ogra> fabbione, the guy wanting them came there :)
[08:14] <fabbione> dholbach: yes skip it 100%
[08:14] <dholbach> done
[08:14] <fabbione> dholbach: including mirrors
[08:14] <fabbione> i hope to get the archive running again for dapper/sid
[08:16] <mjg59> Keybuk: #15979?
[08:17] <Keybuk> mjg59: yup?
[08:17] <Keybuk> probably fixed by 14
[08:17] <mjg59> Keybuk: Ok
[08:17] <mjg59> Keybuk: Can you take it off me?
[08:18] <Keybuk> done
[08:19] <mjg59> Ta
[08:22] <fabbione> elmo: ping?
[08:22] <Mithrandir> doko: no, they second ubuntu is needed too
[08:25] <elmo> fabbione: ?
[08:27] <pitti> mjg59: btw, did you get my /msg about the pbbuttonsd patch?
[08:30] <mjg59> pitti: Yes, but I can't /msg you back because freenode is stupid
[08:31] <ogra> mjg59, youre not registered ? 
[08:34] <guerby> jbailey, hi (again :) I can't find the thread about openssh-server install choice on ubuntu-devel, do you remember the subject line?
[08:34] <jbailey> guerby: Oh, hmm.  Maybe I'm confused and am thinking of the xscreensaver post instead.
[08:35] <guerby> jbailey, are the minutes of TB meeting somewhere on the web? (I'm new to ubuntu process :)
[08:35] <jbailey> guerby: The verbatum log from the channel is.  It's held in #ubuntu-meeting every other Tuesday.
[08:35] <jbailey> I'm just looking for them right now. =)
[08:36] <jcohen85> does anyone else notice that Breezy takes 10-15 seconds longer than hoary to boot up to a useable gnome screen? Before going to the splash screen there's a 15 second delay v. perhaps 5 seconds in hoary before it continued in the boot process. I'm running on an AMD 3000+ with 512 MB of PC3200 DDR. Hoary took 55 seconds to boot up to a useable state and Breezy takes 1:08 or so
[08:36] <jbailey> guerby: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-2005-09-20.html
[08:37] <jbailey> Now I just need to find the right part.
[08:37] <jbailey> jcohen85: 15 seconds before the splash screen comes up seems a bit high.
[08:37] <ogra> guerby, the meeting was yesterday, the log url is in the topic of #ubunut-meeting
[08:37] <jbailey> jcohen85: Do you mean from when grub stops counting?
[08:37] <ogra> oh... to slow :)
[08:37] <jcohen85> jbailey, no, from the time i select 2.6.12-8-686 in grub to the time the splash screen comes up
[08:38] <jcohen85> jbailey, i'm running on a AMD 64 3000+
[08:38] <jbailey> jcohen85: That really seems way high
[08:38] <jbailey> On an amd64 here, it's more like 1 second or two tops.
[08:38] <jcohen85> that's basically why it takes 15 seconds longer to boot up
[08:38] <dholbach> ogra: you don't restart your box twice in a year
[08:38] <jbailey> guerby: Hmm. I see mdz mentioning a web poll, I thought that it got posted to ubuntu-devel, but I'm clearly wrong. =)
[08:38] <guerby> jbailey, "10:30	pitti	maybe default packages in server install? (openssh-server) 10:31	Keybuk	let's wait until jeff's customer turns up to defend that"
[08:39] <ogra> dholbach, i did this morning :) 
[08:39] <dholbach> oh wow
[08:39] <jbailey> guerby: The discussion continues from there, though.
[08:39] <jcohen85> jbailey, i also can't use 2.6.12-8-386 yet because of the /init 0x kernel panic which i posted as a bug on bugzilla
[08:39] <jbailey> jcohen85: that bug is fixed now.
[08:39] <jbailey> jcohen85: Are you still seeing it?
[08:40] <guerby> jbailey, yes thanks (looks like I'm not alone "sivang	I always get annoyed seeing it was not already installed when installing a new server")
[08:40] <mjg59> ogra: No
[08:40] <jcohen85> jbailey, i posted that i ran dpkg-reconfigure linux-image-2.6.12-3-386 TWICE and the problem is still there
[08:40] <jbailey> Did you mean -8-386 ?
[08:40] <jcohen85> jbailey, i just tried purging the kernel and re-installing it
[08:40] <jcohen85> jbailey, yeah, 2.6.12-8-386...and it showed the new .img files being created etc.
[08:41] <ogra> mjg59, thast your prob then :) freenode had a heavy spambot attack that made IRC lients explode due to opened PM windows...
[08:41] <jcohen85> jbailey, so, what would cause the long delay?
[08:41] <jbailey> jcohen85: Can you put your /boot/initrd.img-2.6.12-8-386 somewhere I can find it?
[08:41] <mjg59> ogra: Yes, I know. Hence "I can't /msg you back because freenode is stupid"
[08:41] <ogra> mjg59, just register :)
[08:41] <jcohen85> jbailey, sure- but first let me try to restart and see if the purge & re-install worked
[08:41] <jbailey> jcohen85: I'd love to work with you on checking out the delay after, too.
[08:42] <jcohen85> great- i'll be right back
[08:42] <jbailey> guerby: Right.  So it's in the 'need more info to decide this' phase.
[08:42] <guerby> jbailey, ok I'll wait for the poll :)
[08:43] <mjg59> ogra: No
[08:43] <guerby> jbailey, BTW I don't mind if it's not done in breezy because of freeze issues, etc... as long as it's considered for long term
[08:43] <guerby> jbailey, thanks for your help :)
[08:44] <jbailey> guerby: Cool.  The best bet is probably to poke your head in for the TB meeting in a couple weeks (assuming it happens. Sometimes they got dropped around freeze/release times)
[08:45] <jbailey> jcohen85: and? =)
[08:45] <jcohen85> jbailey, the purge & re-install worked
[08:45] <jbailey> 'kay
[08:45] <jcohen85> so my 386 kernel works fine
[08:45] <jbailey> \o/
[08:45] <jcohen85> but i'm still having the 15 sec delay
[08:46] <jbailey> On both of them? 
[08:46] <jcohen85> yup
[08:46] <jbailey> What type of HDD (ide, scsi, sata, usb, etc?)
[08:46] <jcohen85> IDE seagate 160 GB
[08:46] <jbailey> locally connected? 
[08:47] <jcohen85> yes
[08:47] <jbailey> One harddrive, so no md?
[08:47] <jcohen85> md?
[08:47] <infinity> RAID.
[08:48] <ogra> ... software driven
[08:48] <jcohen85> yeah- no. it's a locally connected internal IDE drive
[08:48] <jcohen85> and no RAID or LVM
[08:48] <jbailey> jcohen85: evms?
[08:48] <jbailey> (If you don't know what it is, then probably no. *g*)
[08:48] <jcohen85> no, heh
[08:49] <jcohen85> enterprise volume management system?
[08:49] <jbailey> Yup
[08:49] <infinity> You get a cookie.
[08:49] <jbailey> Pitty it's an HTTP one...
[08:49] <jcohen85> just plain ext3 partitions
[08:49] <jcohen85> one for / and one for /home
[08:49] <jbailey> Well, there go all the things that usually slow the boot down.
[08:49] <jbailey> After that the only that that runs is the depmod.
[08:49] <jcohen85> the rest of the boot process is fast
[08:50] <jbailey> Is this your only computer?
[08:50] <jcohen85> no
[08:50] <jbailey> Or is there another one you can IRC from handy?
[08:50] <infinity> Some driver/module that's taking forever to insert?
[08:50] <jbailey> infinity: Do they do that?
[08:50] <jcohen85> i also turned off bluez-utils, fetchmail, hplip, postfix, ppp, rsync, and webmin
[08:50] <ogra> did our kernel image grow this much that it takes longer to decompress now ? 
[08:50] <infinity> I don't know.  Does modprobe block?
[08:50] <jbailey> I didn't think insmod heald for driver initialisation.
[08:50] <infinity> Err, insmod, right, you're low-level.
[08:50] <infinity> (ish)
[08:51] <jbailey> Well, modprobe I think just calls out to insmod. 
[08:51] <jbailey> I wind up using both in places.
[08:51] <jbailey> modprobe is shiny.
[08:51] <jbailey> It handles deps for me.
[08:51] <infinity> Indeed. :
[08:51] <infinity> )
[08:51] <pitti> mjg59: ah, I suspected something like this; yay IRC
[08:51] <jcohen85> unfortunately my debian system isn't booting up...problably a hardware issue caused from shipping. it just sits at some point in the boot process with no error
[08:52] <jbailey> jcohen85: Y'know, we have a solution for other OSs that won't start up here...
[08:52] <ogra> err, is modprobe run before usplash appears ? i thought thats only the uncompression of the image that happens at this stage
[08:52] <jbailey> =)
[08:52] <jbailey> ogra: depmod -a is run.
[08:52] <ogra> ah, ok
[08:52] <jbailey> Hmm.
[08:52] <jbailey> We might actually walk the bus first too, I don't remember.
[08:52] <jcohen85> jbailey, so, what should i do?
[08:53] <jbailey> format the debian box^UWell, I need to be able to talk you through walkinmg thruogh the initramfs.
[08:53] <jbailey> Or you'll be staring at information without me able to get it from you.
[08:53] <mpt> Does anyone know the status of the new icons scheduled for Breezy, and/or the status of AndyFitz?
[08:53] <jcohen85> jbailey, i spent days setting up the debian box with mythtv and a 500 GB LVM with 2 tv tuners...i don't want to format it
[08:53] <jbailey> Ah =)
[08:54] <jbailey> I keep hearing about mythtv, one day I should spend some time with google to figure out what it is.
[08:54] <jcohen85> mythtv.org
[08:54] <infinity> jbailey : It's looking for new comaintainers in Debian/Ubuntu, that's what it is.
[08:54] <Keybuk> mpt: I think he's available, didn't realise he was your type <g>
[08:54] <jcohen85> the problem is that i have no way to fix the problem since it silently fails- it just stops after setting up bttv
[08:55] <carl> is bugzilla.ubuntu.com mia, or did I forget the URL?
[08:55] <jcohen85> jbailey, would you like to know how long it takes to get by the decompression stage in 2.6.10?
[08:55] <jbailey> decompression stage?
[08:55] <Keybuk> carl: wfm
[08:56] <jbailey> If you're using 2.6.10, there was nothing to decompress.  grub did it for you.
[08:56] <jcohen85> oh, ok
[08:56] <carl> Wait a Fine Minute?
[08:56] <jbailey> Is it pausing on a line that mentions decompression?
[08:56] <Keybuk> carl: works for me
[08:56] <Kamion> carl: "works for me"
[08:56] <ogra> carl, "works for me"
[08:56] <carl> oh yeah...
[08:57] <carl> ping: unknown host bugzilla.ubuntu.com
[08:57] <carl> #@$@#
[08:57] <ogra> fix your dns :)
[08:57] <jcohen85> jbailey, i'm saying there's 15 seconds between grub and the splash screen whereas in hoary there was only a very short delay before loading modules & processes...maybe 2-3 seconds
[08:57] <jbailey> jcohen85: Right, and during those 15 seconds, what's happening on your screen?
[08:58] <jbailey> Is it sitting on one line?  Walking through them slowly
[08:58] <jbailey> ?
[08:58] <jbailey> It is probably best to remove the wrod 'quiet' from the kernel command line for that test.
[08:58] <jcohen85> jbailey, nothing...it just sits there saying "decompresisng kernel" i think
[08:58] <jcohen85> i would have to go back and check for sure
[08:58] <jbailey> If you could please.
[08:58] <jcohen85> it's sitting on one line..doing nothing
[08:58] <jcohen85> once the splash screen comes up everything goes by quickly
[08:58] <jbailey> But do it without the 'quiet' line on the command line.
[08:59] <jbailey> Then I need the last couple of lines before it pauses.
[08:59] <jcohen85> oh, and btw- after i install a kernel, it removes my xp grub entry
[08:59] <jcohen85> ok, i'll brb
[08:59] <jbailey> jcohen85: Make sure you're not adding it between the lines that say "Don't touch anything between these lines" =)
[09:01] <ogra> to late
[09:01] <jbailey> up-arrow, enter is my friend. =)
[09:01] <ogra> if he comes back ;)
[09:02] <ogra> mdz, sorry for the flint noise, i told him he'd have no luck :)
[09:02] <mdz> ogra: he tried to call me 3 times this morning
[09:03] <mdz> the first time at 0800
[09:03] <ogra> gah
[09:03] <ogra> mdz, opinions on 15706 ? 
[09:05] <jcohen85> it actually only takes about 10.5 seconds to go to the splash screen. in that time it looks like it's detecting hardware
[09:05] <jcohen85> it doesn't sit anywhere for too long- the longest is on the dvd drive i believe
[09:06] <jcohen85> and hoary took about 8 seconds doing the same thing- i guess i didnt notice before
[09:06] <jbailey> Hmm.
[09:07] <jbailey> Mostly now you just feel it because of how long the splash takes to come up, I guess?
[09:07] <jcohen85> yeah
[09:07] <jcohen85> it still does take 2-3 seconds longer for the same step
[09:07] <jcohen85> but what's noticeable is how long it takes for the splash screen to come up
[09:08] <jcohen85> actually- let me time the startup once more
[09:12] <jcohen85> yeah, there's definitely a difference
[09:12] <doko> Riddell: ping
[09:12] <Riddell> doko: hi
[09:12] <jcohen85> this time it took 14 seconds to get to the splash screen
[09:12] <jbailey> From hitting enter in grub, right?
[09:13] <jcohen85> jbailey, in 2.6.10 it takes 31 seconds to go from pressing enter on grub to the brown screen that starts when gnome starts loading
[09:13] <jbailey> I have to run off to a doctors appt in a moment.
[09:13] <jcohen85> and in total it takes 57 seconds to go from pressing enter in grub to a fully useable gnome desktop with icons and menu/clock loaded
[09:14] <jcohen85> in 2.6.12 it takes 40 seconds to the brown gnome load screen and 1:06 for gnome to completely finish loading
[09:14] <jbailey> jcohen85: I will give you a new initramfs-tools tomorrow to test with that should collect information for me.
[09:14] <jcohen85> ok
[09:14] <jcohen85> going from 30 to 40 seconds seems pretty substantial especially when most of the delay is in the beginning
[09:15] <jcohen85> by 15 seconds, 2.6.10 is well into the bootup process
[09:15] <jbailey> Right, it's probably just modprobe blocking on something for some reason.
[09:15] <jbailey> I'll be able to tell what it is.
[09:15] <jcohen85> isn't it strange that no one before me posted a bug report for the kernel panic i was getting
[09:16] <jbailey> Gotta run, back shortly.
[09:16] <jcohen85> it affected all kernels and apparently affected amd 64 chips- i just upgraded to breezy on the 17th
[09:16] <jcohen85> thanks for your help
[09:19] <smurf> I haven't heard from silbs WRT today's locoteam meeting. Can somebody ping her (SMS?) and find out if she'll be there?
[09:34] <thesaltydog> is someone working on a graphical bluetooth configuration editor?
[09:36] <mjg59> thesaltydog: Yes
[09:36] <mpt> Keybuk: ha ha ... I only want him for his icons
[09:37] <thesaltydog> mjg59, ok.. is it available? maybe an alpha-release?
[09:37] <mjg59> thesaltydog: Not that I know of
[09:37] <mjg59> Bastien Nocera is working on one
[09:38] <thesaltydog> mjg59, thanks.
[09:41] <elmo> Riddell: ?
[09:41] <Riddell> elmo: hi
[09:41] <elmo> Riddell: you know about kdelibs?
[09:41] <Riddell> elmo: I should do
[09:42] <elmo> Riddell: the FTBFS I mean
[09:42] <Riddell> on i386?  fixing that just now
[09:43] <mjg59> elmo: Did amd64 ndiswrapper builds get fixed?
[09:43] <mjg59> Userspace builds, rather - the kernel's been sorted now
[09:43] <elmo> ndiswrapper-utils | 1.1-4ubuntu1 |        breezy | amd64, i386
[09:43] <elmo> Riddell: yeah - ok, thanks
[09:43] <mjg59> elmo: Thanks!
[09:44] <Mithrandir> elmo: somebody claims it doesn't work, though.
[09:44] <mjg59> elmo: Also, as of tomorrow's kernel, nx6125 should be pretty decent out of the box
[09:44] <elmo> Mithrandir: dude talk to the mjg59
[09:44] <elmo> mjg59: sweet
[09:44] <Mithrandir> mjg59: somebody claims it doesn't work, though.
[09:44] <mjg59> Mithrandir: In what way?
[09:44] <mjg59> Mithrandir: We don't yet ship an amd64 kernel with an ndiswrapper module
[09:46] <Mithrandir> mjg59: hmm, indeed we don't.
[09:46] <mjg59> But we will do from tomorrow
[09:46] <ogra> Mithrandir, and even with selfcompiled ndiswrapper it works fine here...
[09:47] <ogra> i use it since hoary for my linksys pcmcia card
[09:47] <ogra> Mithrandir, are you sure the guy who complains uses 64bit drivers for his card ?
[09:48] <Mithrandir> ogra: it appears he had a version mismatch
[09:48] <Mithrandir> 15052
[09:50] <ogra> Mithrandir, indeed, we only ship 1.1
[09:56] <mdke_> anyone got an acx_111 pcmcia card which works ootb with breezy?
[09:57] <CarlK> im on a Sep something Breezy, trying to file a bug report about fstab.  how can I get the date or something that will identify what version of the installer was used?
[09:59] <CarlK> uname -a ?
[09:59] <CarlK> Aug 30... good enough
[10:00] <smurf> Hmmm... nobody here can ping silbs?? I find that somewhat hard to believe ...
[10:00] <Kamion> CarlK: /cdrom/.disk/info
[10:00] <CarlK> thanks
[10:00] <CarlK> now if I can just remember my bz pw...
[10:00] <jbailey> smurf: Wha?  She's not online atm acc to /wii
[10:00] <Kamion> smurf: she more or less works UK working hours
[10:01] <Kamion> unfortunately my phone is out of credit or I'd try SMSing
[10:01] <smurf> Kamion: we have some locoteamMeeting topics she's mostly responsible for
[10:02] <CarlK> wait... I don't have the CD.  I had an ISO but that got overwritten the next morning
[10:02] <CarlK> I was looking for a someting on the box
[10:02] <Kamion> you might find it in /var/log/installer/syslog
[10:02] <Kamion> grep for cdrom-detect
[10:03] <CarlK> /var/log/installer/syslog
[10:03] <CarlK> er..
[10:03] <CarlK> Sep  7 14:15:42 anna[6189] : DEBUG: ask for cdrom-detect, is menu item
[10:04] <CarlK> is that useful?
[10:04] <Kamion> CarlK: no, try not just the first match
[10:04] <CarlK> thats all the matchs
[10:04] <Kamion> er, one sec
[10:05] <Kamion> should be something like "Oct 20 00:43:53 (none) user.notice cdrom-detect: Detected CD 'Ubuntu 4.10 "Warty Warthog" - Preview amd64 Binary-1 (20041020)'"
[10:05] <Kamion> obviously that's ancient but the relevant code hasn't changed
[10:08] <CarlK> Kamion, pxe booty stuff, so no CDrom... but I think the Aug30/Sep7 will be good enough.  plus I am going to confirm it all once I get back to my crash-n-burn box
[10:08] <CarlK> and I am having to email my well constructed bug anyway cuz I can't figure out my bz password.... duh.
[10:08] <Kamion> CarlK: ah, ok, I don't think it's stored anywhere else then
[10:11] <CarlK> but hey, on the good side, a friends Win98 box got all hosed, so I thew a breezy box in the car and drove it over so her kids could type/print there homeowrk, and it has been running fine
[10:11] <CarlK> so go breezy.
[10:21] <CarlK> how come "detect printer" never sees anything I hookup?
[10:22] <CarlK> shouldn't it at least figure out from lsusb what the printer is and tell me it isn't in the database?
[10:25] <moyogo> hi, i was wondering if people can contribute to the ubuntu font?
[10:26] <CarlK> or is this a bug: there is a 812c driver,  "find printer" didn't find it, lsusb shows: ID 03f0:0304 Hewlett-Packard DeskJet 810c/812c
[10:33] <pablof> hi, whe i raise synaptic i get error  art_render_gradient.c:338: art_render_gradient_linear_render_8: Assertiva `offset_fraction <= stops[ix] .offset'
[10:35] <pablof> somebody know this problem ?
[10:35] <spayne> jdub: ping
[10:38] <mvo> pablof: breezy?
[10:38] <mvo> pablof: never seen/heard of that error
[10:38] <pablof> mvo: yes, breezy
[10:40] <camilotelles__> pablof: this error was happening before? 
[10:40] <pablof> no, this starting after dist-upgrade
[10:41] <camilotelles__> pablof: what is the breezy version?
[10:42] <pablof> camilotelles__: 20/09
[10:43] <camilotelles__> if you try this version without the dist-upgrade the error occurs?
[10:43] <pablof> camilotelles__: one moment... i will test
[10:44] <camilotelles__> pablof: you have to reinstall...
[10:44] <pablof> camilotelles__: ok, i reboot the pc. :)
[10:44] <pablof> camilotelles__: and test
[10:44] <camilotelles__> pablof: you have to reinstall the 20/09 version, test, do the dist-upgrade - test again.
[10:44] <pablof> camilotelles__: with live cd
[10:45] <camilotelles__> pablof: thats ok.
[10:46] <lamont> pitti: hrm... langpacks and SCC archs...
[10:46] <lamont> should SCC archs be stripping, and since we do, what about packages that are only built on that architecture?
[10:46] <lamont> (since I _know_ you're not harvesting the translations...
[10:46] <lamont> )
[10:47] <pitti> lamont: as long as these arches export tarballs to your directory, that should be fine
[10:47] <lamont> pitti: yeah, they don't yet...
[10:47] <pitti> lamont: of course this means some overhead in the langpacks, but oh well...
[10:47] <lamont> maybe I'll add at least one of them...
[10:47] <lamont> pitti: that was really my question...
[10:47] <pitti> lamont: we import all arches now
[10:48] <pitti> lamont: so if there is an ia64 specific package, we will get its translations
[10:48] <camilotelles__> pablof: if the error persists create a minimal python script to submit with the bug
[10:48] <dholbach> the joy of apt-get.org: another funny debian/copyright file:
[10:48] <dholbach> And SPICE3f5 (not installer) is distributed under the following licence.
[10:48] <dholbach> "Free for people friendly to the U.S.A."
[10:48] <dholbach> :)
[10:49] <pitti> lol
[10:49] <bddebian> hehe
[10:49] <bddebian> Are there any left?? ;-)
[10:49] <pitti> bddebian: hi
[10:49] <bddebian> Heya pitti
[10:49] <pitti> bddebian: enjoyed pctcl and pgaccess? :-)
[10:49] <pitti> pgtcl, even
[10:49] <bddebian> pitti: Were you able to get it in?
[10:49] <pitti> bddebian: it's in breezy, and in Debian's NEW queue
[10:50] <bddebian> Awesome, good work! :-)
[10:50] <pitti> bddebian: so in breezy everything is fine
[10:50] <bddebian> I'll have to try rhdb-admin now :-)
[10:51] <pablof> camilotelles__: the error persit
[10:51] <lamont> pitti: 171MB of translations incoming in about 10 minutes....
[10:51] <pitti> bddebian: that also needs tweaks, at least the dependency
[10:51] <pitti> lamont: carlos will love you :-)
[10:51] <lamont> yeah, well, that dates back to jun 30. :-)
[10:51] <pablof> camilotelles__: and not only with synaptic
[10:51] <lamont> fabbione: you want sparc translations?
[10:51] <carlos> pitti, lamont ;-)
[10:52] <pablof> open a bug ?
[10:53] <CarlK> how do I debug this:  prop sheet says "status: printer not connected" and yet lsusb shows Bus 001 Device 005: ID 03f0:0304 Hewlett-Packard DeskJet 810c/812c
[10:53] <martinhj> anyone of you knows how I can reach this "j@bootlap" guy who have created this NetworkManager repository for breezy?
[10:53] <martinhj> I suppose that is not the version which is going to be in breezy?
[10:53] <camilotelles__> pablof: submit the bug with the minimal script.
[10:54] <ogra> martinhj, its already in since a week or so
[10:54] <camilotelles__> pablof: I dont know what package you have to submit.
[10:55] <martinhj> ogra: the vpnc plugin for nm too?
[10:56] <ogra> pablof, the function art_render_gradient_linear_render is in libart (dunno if the bug is in libart or caused by something else though)
[10:56] <ogra> martinhj, not as far as i know
[10:57] <martinhj> ogra: and it wont be included?
[10:57] <sladen> ogra / pablof: is synaptic using SVG icons containing gradients
[10:57] <ogra> martinhj, depends if there is time left to review it for MOTU, we are currently focusing on fixing the remaining bugs
[10:57] <pablof> ogra: ok, i will open the bug for libart
[10:58] <martinhj> ogra: ok, thanks
[10:58] <pablof> sladen: maybe the is librsvg2-2 
[10:58] <pablof> ??
[10:58] <ogra> could be
[10:58] <pablof> ok
[10:58] <ogra> are the other apps causing the error using svg icons ? 
[10:59] <sladen> pablof: when exactly do you see this error.  What action in synaptic do you have to perform to see it?
[10:59] <pablof> yes, but app wiht jpg icons occur
[11:00] <pablof> sladen: whe i raise synaptic in shell
[11:00] <pablof> sladen: i just execute synaptic
[11:01] <sladen> pablof: yes. not error I get
[11:01] <sladen> not an error
[11:02] <mvo> pablof: any special theme or something? (sorry if that was asked before)
[11:04] <pablof> mvo: a custom them for my "distribution ubuntu"
[11:07] <pablof> ok, i change to original them and the problem solved. 
[11:07] <pablof> mvo: but, do you have any idea for this problem are happening ?
[11:09] <mvo> pablof: not right now. is synaptic the only application that dosn't cope with that theme?
[11:11] <bddebian> Dunno if you folks know but synaptics is on the list to be merged
[11:11] <pablof> mvo: no, but with some applications. i can't identify a common behavior
[11:11] <mvo> pablof: I'm off to bed now, please ping me about this issue tomorrow or file a bugreport with some more information about the used theme
[11:11] <pablof> mvo: ok, i meet you here
[11:13] <pablof> bye
[11:13] <mvo> pablof: bye :)
[11:16] <Kamion> bddebian: you mean synaptic or synaptics? they're totally different things
[11:17] <Kamion> (synaptic is a package management frontend, synaptics is a touchpad driver)
[11:18] <bddebian> Hmm, let me look, it's probably synaptics :-)
[11:19] <bddebian> Doh, I am on crack, it's synopsis
[11:19] <Kamion> synaptic is very definitely in main
[11:19] <Kamion> ah
[11:19] <Keybuk> mjg59: I don't think #15979 is a udev-related bug after all
[11:21] <mjg59> Keybuk: Ok
[11:21] <mjg59> I'm pretty certain it's not a usplash one
[11:22] <Keybuk> for what reasons does usplash go away and give back the console?
[11:27] <mjg59> After a VT switch or after 15 seconds of not being esnt a message
[11:28] <dholbach> seb128: how was soccer? who won?
[11:29] <seb128> dholbach: was fine, Auxerre won (2-1)
[11:30] <seb128> mdz: I don't agree with #15372 beeing normal, it makes quite easy to get a crasher g-s-d due to it for a lot of locales, which means error messages, no icon, no theme, etc 
[11:40] <daniels> sladen: don't get me started
[11:58] <Riddell> seb128: did you hear back from the gstreamer-misc guy?
[11:59] <seb128> Riddell: he said that's probably fine to split to create a -gtk, but not sure than that many people have no gtk installed on a desktop
[12:00] <seb128> Riddell: is that a real issue for some users?
[12:01] <Riddell> seb128: yes, it takes up space on the CD which we don't have