[12:34] <Lathiat> Thu Sep 22 10:34:38 UTC 2005
[12:35] <ajmitch> yes, thanks for that ;)
[12:35] <Lathiat> im so helpfull
[12:36] <ajmitch> sure
[02:00] <ajmitch> ok
[02:00] <ajmitch> who's around for the meeting? :)
[02:00] <slomo> ajmitch: i am... at least partially ;)
[02:01] <sistpoty> hehe
[02:01] <ajmitch> we don't usually do name intros here, since there's no need to match wiki pages to potential members ;)
[02:01] <ajmitch> slomo: pff, it's midnight here
[02:01] <sistpoty> ah... thought it would some kind of tradition ;)
[02:01] <Yagisan> 10pm here
[02:02] <shaga> 3pm
[02:02] <ajmitch> no dholbach?
[02:02] <shaga> I was speaking about the time whats now :)
[02:02] <slomo> ajmitch: 14:02 here... but i have to learn mathematics ;)
[02:02] <slomo> wb Nafallo 
[02:02] <ajmitch> bah
[02:02] <Nafallo> morning all :-)
[02:03] <ajmitch> hi Nafallo 
[02:03] <siretart> hi folks ;)
[02:03] <sistpoty> huhu siretart
[02:03] <Yagisan> well if we are giving intros
[02:03] <siretart> hi sistpoty 
[02:04] <Nafallo> ahh, motumeeting _and_ breakfast :-)
[02:04] <dholbach> hi
[02:04] <ajmitch> hi dholbach 
[02:04] <sistpoty> hi dholbach
[02:04] <slomo> hi dholbach 
[02:04] <dholbach> hi everybody
[02:04] <ajmitch> ok, who wants to volunteer to do the meeting minutes this week?
[02:04] <ajmitch> shall I do them again?
[02:04] <ogra> if you like ... i'm stuffed...
[02:05] <Nafallo> why is my IRC screwed? I've got - and + before all names
[02:05] <ajmitch> ogra: understandable
[02:05] <sistpoty> i can do the minutes... but only if someone will correct them ;)
[02:05] <ajmitch> we've got enough people here to get started then
[02:05] <ogra> (the edubutu DVD will be used by the club of rome to promote their documents) 
[02:05] <ogra> and by the unesco...
[02:05] <dholbach> ogra: ROCK'N'ROLL!
[02:06] <ogra> yep :)
[02:06] <ajmitch> ogra: oh man, that's cool!
[02:06] <siretart> sounds great!
[02:06] <ajmitch> good work :)
[02:06] <ogra> :)
[02:06] <Nafallo> wow
[02:06] <dholbach> let's get cracking
[02:07] <sivang> ogra: amazing, were they impressed by the quality ?
[02:07] <ajmitch> first item, REVU
[02:07] <dholbach> sistpoty: your item, i believe?
[02:07] <sistpoty> not revu actually, but the server sponsored by canonical
[02:07] <Nafallo> s/REVU/tiber/ :-)
[02:07] <sistpoty> since we have it... why not use it for MOTU business as well ;)
[02:07] <ajmitch> sistpoty: such as?
[02:07] <ogra> RT ?
[02:07] <sivang> sistpoty: MOTU have a server from canonical ?
[02:07] <Nafallo> sistpoty: like a people.ubuntu.com derivate?
[02:07] <ajmitch> webspace for other uploads?
[02:08] <ajmitch> ogra: hm, could be good :)
[02:08] <sistpoty> whatever we could need it for
[02:08] <ogra> err, that should comae anyway through launchpad at some point i think
[02:08] <ogra> (p.u.c functionality)
[02:08] <dholbach> somebody could doublecheck in #launchpad
[02:08] <ajmitch> dholbach: they've got a meeting now
[02:09] <siretart> sistpoty: I think the point was to use it as developer machine. in the meantime I hacked this revu-build script
[02:09] <dholbach> ajmitch: oh i see
[02:09] <dholbach> siretart: that's excellent news
[02:09] <\sh> morning
[02:09] <ajmitch> sistpoty: chroots setup for package building? how fast is the box?
[02:09] <ajmitch> morning \sh 
[02:09] <siretart> sistpoty: any root on tiber can now throw revu uploads into revu build, and get it autobuilt and some more diagnostics
[02:09] <ajmitch> I thought it was a shared linode box
[02:09] <ogra> i think we urgently need something better than UniverseCandidates .... that would be my first shot for additional services 
[02:09] <sistpoty> siretart: cool
[02:09] <siretart> I think some ppl have already seen what I mean
[02:09] <ajmitch> ogra: yes, certainly
[02:10] <dholbach> yeah that'd rock
[02:10] <ajmitch> ogra: even malone would be better than universecandidates :)
[02:10] <ogra> heh
[02:10] <ajmitch> well, when LP is working
[02:10] <sistpoty> ajmitch: AMD Sempron(tm)   2400+
[02:10] <\sh> I think RT is a kewl solution
[02:10] <\sh> or via trac
[02:10] <ajmitch> sistpoty: so it's not a shared box, but a dedicated server for MOTUs? :)
[02:10] <\sh> the ticketing system is also nice
[02:11] <sistpoty> ajmitch: i dunno if this is a vserver or a dedicated one... how could i check?
[02:11] <ogra> yup
[02:11] <dholbach> maybe we can fire up a wiki page to collect ideas for pages that organize our work a bit better
[02:12] <ajmitch> dholbach: good idea
[02:12] <dholbach> like  short script for morguecandidates, syncs to make sure they are done, ...
[02:12] <ajmitch> otherwise we'll waste the meeting time talking about various things we could do :)
[02:12] <siretart> mom
[02:12] <dholbach> yeah
[02:12] <ogra> yup, we ned a tool thats good at transition lists... and a tool for the UniverseCandidates
[02:12] <dholbach> yeah
[02:12] <dholbach> that sounds excellent
[02:12] <ogra> preferable one that can do both
[02:13] <ajmitch> for transitions, unmet deps, etc
[02:13] <dholbach> MOTUWebTools ?
[02:13] <ogra> sournds good
[02:13] <dholbach> starting it
[02:13] <ogra> :)
[02:13] <dholbach> next item?
[02:13] <ajmitch> UVF, and the lack of knowledge of it?
[02:13] <sistpoty> i'd like to speak about user-accounts 
[02:13] <ajmitch> sistpoty: ok
[02:13] <sistpoty> on tiber... if you don't mind
[02:13] <ajmitch> go ahead :)
[02:14] <sistpoty> how do we want to handle this? i don't object about giving every modu root-rights...
[02:14] <sistpoty> but this might lead to some administering chaos
[02:14] <sistpoty> any ideas?
[02:14] <siretart> I think this should be handled by request
[02:14] <sistpoty> s/modu/motu ;)
[02:14] <ajmitch> siretart: agreed
[02:15] <ajmitch> given on need
[02:15] <siretart> if some motu wants an account on tiber, we can create it
[02:15] <ajmitch> and stuff should be setup such that few people _need_ root
[02:15] <siretart> the applicant should state what he intends to do on tiber
[02:15] <Yagisan> perhaps striping unneeded rights with something like grsec
[02:15] <siretart> and we will consider if root rights are necessary
[02:15] <sistpoty> siretart: agreed
[02:15] <Yagisan> s/striping/stripping
[02:15] <Nafallo> /etc/sudoers can be set up as needed
[02:16] <ogra> i think a good group management is enough, no need for custom kernel stuff etc
[02:16] <siretart> for http://revu.tauware.de/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/wiki/Revu1Building - root is needed, though
[02:16] <ajmitch> siretart: sudo can be setup to run just some commands - not really secure, but avoids accidental mistakes
[02:16] <ogra> ajmitch++
[02:16] <ajmitch> anyone building stuff in a chroot can probably still own the box anyway ;)
[02:16] <\sh> I would say, siretart will be the the "uber-root" of this machine...
[02:17] <slomo> siretart: for example you could just allow sudo on revu-build for everybody or something like that
[02:17] <sistpoty> hehe
[02:17] <ogra> :)
[02:17] <siretart> ajmitch: sudo rights for pbuilding is effectly root
[02:17] <Yagisan> ajmitch: that's not always true ...
[02:17] <dholbach> did anyone notice that the wiki is f.cking slow?
[02:17] <ogra> yup
[02:17] <Yagisan> yes - it's always slow
[02:17] <ogra> yesterday already
[02:17] <ajmitch> Yagisan: no, but we've got a stock ubuntu install, no chroot hardening at the moment, iirc
[02:17] <Yagisan> ajmitch: I see
[02:17] <siretart> \sh: hehe - I think we should establish a tiber admin team, in case e.g. me is not available or very busy
[02:18] <dholbach> wiki page is there
[02:18] <sistpoty> siretart++
[02:18] <dholbach> super
[02:18] <ajmitch> siretart: or sleeping, since all the admin team in one country isn't so helpful at times :)
[02:18] <\sh> siretart: backup is a good thing...we should avoid SPoFs
[02:18] <Yagisan> ajmitch -  If needed - could we change kernel or turn on selinux etc ?
[02:18] <ajmitch> Yagisan: probably doable, depending on if it's a shared box, etc
[02:19] <ajmitch> Yagisan: I haven't seen the box yet
[02:19] <ogra> i'm oppsed to change the kernel 
[02:19] <siretart> \sh: do you have some time in future (not atm but general) to do adminning buissness on tiber?
[02:19] <ogra> we loose the upgradeability
[02:19] <ajmitch> ogra: as am I, but we can fit selinux in if needed
[02:19] <\sh> siretart: well...I'm always on :) so I can do some things...
[02:19] <siretart> Yagisan: I'd rather put xen on tiber
[02:19] <Yagisan> ogra: I think selinux also can do the caps - bit it's set to diablled by default
[02:19] <ogra> ajmitch, thats only a boot option, right ? 
[02:19] <Yagisan> ogra: yes
[02:19] <sistpoty> hm... imo all the motu's are trustworthy enough to "have" root rights... i see the real problem in several persons fiddling on the same stuff so the sudoers variant for pbuilder should suffice
[02:19] <Nafallo> could someone check with whoever fixed that box exactly what it is? :-)
[02:19] <ogra> ok
[02:19] <\sh> anyways...lets agree on an admin team all over the main motu TZs and lets move on :)
[02:20] <siretart> ok, in this case, I'd propose sistpoty, sh and myself as core tiber admin team, 
[02:20] <dholbach> yeah
[02:20] <ogra> sistpoty, even the best MOTUs make mistakes
[02:20] <Nafallo> siretart: same country :-P
[02:20] <dholbach> :)
[02:20] <sistpoty> ogra: that's why i prefer the sudoers variant... but let's move on
[02:20] <\sh> everyone makes mistakes..sometimes small ones..and sometimes..forget it ;9
[02:20] <siretart> we will handle account requests, via an alias file, will create an alias for this: admin@tiber.tauware.de
[02:21] <siretart> Nafallo: oh. you're right, that was not on purpose
[02:21] <dholbach> excellent idea
[02:21] <Nafallo> I would like ajmitch on that admin theme personally :-).
[02:21] <Lathiat> admin theme hey
[02:21] <ajmitch> heh
[02:21] <Nafallo> hehe, or team ;-)
[02:21] <ajmitch> theming, sounds like andyfitz territory ;)
[02:21] <ogra> do we have somebody from the US ?
[02:21] <\sh> bddebian ;)
[02:21] <ogra> to add to this team ? 
[02:22] <ogra> great :)
[02:22] <ajmitch> we're a little short on US MOTUs at the moment :)
[02:22] <ajmitch> seems to be mostly europe active
[02:22] <Lathiat> what is the us timezone
[02:22] <Lathiat> -4 or something?
[02:22] <ogra> but bddebian is a good start :)
[02:22] <ajmitch> yes
[02:22] <Nafallo> ajmitch: you are awake when germany is asleep most times, no? :-)
[02:22] <Lathiat> what a guess
[02:23] <ajmitch> Nafallo: sure, I'm about 12 hours different, and I'm addicted to IRC ;)
[02:23] <\sh> Lathiat: -6?
[02:23] <Nafallo> so ajmitch for admin then ;-)
[02:23] <Lathiat> \sh: ah
[02:23] <ajmitch> Lathiat: depends which US TZ you mean
[02:23] <siretart> admin@tiber.tauware.de should work now
[02:23] <\sh> east-coast should be ok
[02:23] <ajmitch> ok, so who's on the team?
[02:23] <dcraven> -4 here in Canada, but there are 3 tzs.
[02:23] <\sh> ajmitch: bddebian ;) 
[02:24] <ajmitch> \sh: ok
[02:24] <dholbach> tseng is in the US as well
[02:24] <Nafallo> could we _ask_ bddebian before? :-)
[02:24] <\sh> ajmitch: i think it should be: you, bddebian (US), siretart 
[02:24] <\sh> Nafallo: no...it's settled
[02:24] <Nafallo> hehe
[02:24] <ogra> ah, yes, or tseng... but tseng was busy recently
[02:25] <\sh> Nafallo: he would say always "No, I'm a n00b" but I don't believe bddebian
[02:25] <ajmitch> \sh: bddebian has plenty of admin experience
[02:25] <\sh> Nafallo: so giving him the job is the best we can do for him ;)
[02:25] <\sh> ajmitch: but he's is playing a fool with us ;)
[02:25] <dholbach> yeah, he likes his little jokes
[02:25] <Nafallo> hehe, okey. we use the --force on him then :-P
[02:25] <\sh> s/a/the/
[02:26] <dholbach> ok, next item?
[02:26] <dholbach> :)
[02:26] <\sh>  UVF for universe and multiverse (ReinhardTartler, ajmitch)
[02:27] <ajmitch> the fact that recent MOTUs just don't know that we had UVF for universe
[02:27] <ajmitch> and we got a few broken syncs of new upstream versions
[02:27] <ogra> damned
[02:27] <\sh> which ones? vpnc is fixed ;)
[02:27] <Nafallo> hmm, not even I knew that :-P
[02:27] <dholbach> it's quite easy to answer that, i guess - if a new version fixes a problem easier than patching/fixing/cirvumventing, we should get it in (especially, if it's in debian) - we should insist on testbuilds and tests before
[02:28] <ogra> regardless of UVF, syncs should *always* be tested before requesting the sync !
[02:28] <ajmitch> dholbach: not just that, but that UVF exceptions were meant to be passed by you/ogra/some others, with those conditions
[02:28] <ajmitch> ogra: yes, agreed
[02:28] <dcraven> Can someone say what UVF stands for so us new folk can keep up?
[02:29] <Yagisan> Ubuntu Version Freeze
[02:29] <Mithrandir> dcraven: upstream version freezy
[02:29] <Mithrandir> freeze, even
[02:29] <Lathiat> upstream version freeze
[02:29] <dcraven> cheers
[02:29] <ogra> upstream version freeze
[02:29] <ogra> we ar in it since 2 months
[02:29] <dholbach> Mithrandir: freezy is funny - we should have it in one of the next releases :)
[02:29] <dholbach> Mithrandir: and announce it at UbuntuBelowZero :)
[02:29] <ogra> so new upstream versions need approval before they are done, to make sure a second pair of eyes looks over them
[02:29] <Mithrandir> dholbach: aka outdoors meeting?
[02:30] <dholbach> hehe, exactly
[02:30] <Nafallo> hehe
[02:30] <ogra> *shiver*
[02:30] <ajmitch> ogra: we need this written up on a wiki page, with the people to contact for UVF exceptions
[02:30] <dholbach> smokers bofs :)
[02:30] <\sh> for dapper we HAVE to stay with UVF/FF etc.
[02:30] <Nafallo> \sh: agreed
[02:30] <ogra> ajmitch, we also need to respect it completely in dapper...
[02:30] <ajmitch> we have to maintain a *high* quality for dapper
[02:31] <ajmitch> ogra: yes, given exceptions that are tested
[02:31] <ogra> so no need for a wiki page, since we will have to follow the release schedule completely in dapper
[02:31] <\sh> for breezy it was as well a bit shitty, cause all this transitions and {gcc,g++}-4 fixes...
[02:31] <ajmitch> Yagisan: of course
[02:31] <ogra> remember we'll have to support dapper for 5 years
[02:31] <ajmitch> my main problem with UVF this time round was that noone really knew what was happening :)
[02:31] <\sh> ogra: so..we need a good securtiy team
[02:31] <ogra> so we should totally stick to the schedule as for main
[02:31] <Nafallo> Yagisan: we _always_ need more MOTUs :-)
[02:31] <ogra> Yagisan++
[02:32] <dholbach> ok, what can we decide on this?
[02:32] <ogra> dholbach, its over... failures happened... what should we decide here
[02:32] <ogra> we *are* in UVF that should be promoted in the channel...
[02:32] <dholbach> that's how i see it too
[02:33] <Nafallo> dholbach: to learn from previous releases (incl. breezy) mistakes and start following procedures :-)
[02:33] <\sh> dholbach: that we stay with _MAIN_ schedule for dapper, but it has to be discussed at UBZ how we can achieve a _secure universe_ and how the support of _dapper_ will apply to _universe/multiverse_
[02:33] <ogra> no wikipage needed
[02:33] <ajmitch> ogra: we'll have to talk about how lenient we can be with UVF exceptions
[02:33] <ajmitch> ogra: since we'll probably get the request to import apt-get.org again 
[02:33] <ajmitch> or other new stuff 
[02:33] <dholbach> there should be good reasons, but we shouldnt be completely anal
[02:34] <Yagisan> for secure universe - I think new updates as required should be ok
[02:34] <ogra> ajmitch if the fix something ad are tested well and dont introduce additional breakage, exceptions are fine
[02:34] <\sh> ajmitch: regarding UVF for dapper, we have to comply with _main_ rules...so ogra and dholbach have to approve
[02:34] <ajmitch> \sh: just those 2?
[02:34] <Nafallo> Yagisan: rather backports of fixes...
[02:34] <Nafallo> Yagisan: where possible that is...
[02:34] <dholbach> . o O { as if we didnt have other stuff to do  :-) }
[02:34] <Yagisan> Nafallo: of course
[02:34] <dholbach> ajmitch: no, we'll agree on a team
[02:34] <\sh> ajmitch: for me ogra and dholbach are the leads...so if they share their responsibilty it's up to them :)
[02:34] <Nafallo> kismet wasn't possible ;-)
[02:34] <ajmitch> dholbach: we 'sort of' had a team for breezy for UVF ;)
[02:34] <dholbach> but let's go ahead, if you don't mind - i really don't fancy building a complex rule system
[02:35] <dholbach> ajmitch: yeah :)
[02:35] <ajmitch> I don't like complex rules
[02:35] <Yagisan> Nafallo - neither is tor (was that fixed ??)
[02:35] <ogra> dholbach, we'll need one if we have a 5 year support cycle
[02:35] <ajmitch> just ones that work, and let us get dapper rocking by release ;)
[02:35] <\sh> *ALL*: lets discuss it at UBZ ;)
[02:35] <\sh> with a beer ,-)
[02:35] <dholbach> ogra: we will manage
[02:35] <Nafallo> \sh: I can't go :-P
[02:35] <ajmitch> \sh: not everyone will be there
[02:35] <ogra> \sh, yup
[02:35] <ogra> we'll make a IRC based BOF about it ;)
[02:36] <ajmitch> Yagisan: oh, congrats :)
[02:36] <Lathiat> :)
[02:36] <\sh> ajmitch: I think we're enough to discuss this...and prepare a proposal for agreeing with the rest...
[02:36] <ajmitch> ogra: like UDU? :)
[02:36] <ajmitch> \sh: yep
[02:36] <ogra> ajmitch yup
[02:36] <ajmitch> \sh: as long as canadian beer is good, we'll be fine ;)
[02:36] <\sh> Yagisan: congrats
[02:36] <Treenaks> ogra: I _will_ be coming :)
[02:36] <Nafallo> ... and congrats Yagisan :-)
[02:37] <Yagisan> thanks - second bub :)
[02:37] <siretart> :)
[02:37] <ogra> dholbach, 5 years with broken packages in universe are quite bad... "we'll manage" isnt enough
[02:37] <dholbach> ogra: i didnt say that we should upload everything that gets in our hands, did i? :)
[02:37] <ajmitch> ogra: so we need to recruit more :)
[02:38] <ogra> dholbach, nope, but "we'll manage" isnt "we'll have to stich to release plans"
[02:38] <dholbach> i just stated, that we shouldnt agree on something for the next release now
[02:38] <ogra> stick too
[02:38] <ajmitch> dholbach++
[02:38] <Nafallo> or get canonical to pay someone for a secure universe :-P
[02:38] <\sh> ogra: well...lets hear other voices about how we have to handle universe/multiverse for dapper, because officially it's not "supported" as _main_ is
[02:38] <ajmitch> \sh: no, but universe is important
[02:38] <\sh> ajmitch: it is for sure...
[02:39] <ogra> \sh, universe will be closed as main will at release
[02:39] <\sh> ajmitch: but I don't think, putting a 5 years support (server side) or 3 years (desktop side) on volunteers back
[02:39] <siretart> ogra: I think if you really want to improve the over package quality in universe, we should rather take package from debian/testing instead of debian/unstable, or establish a 'testing' distribution on our own
[02:39] <dholbach> hrm
[02:39] <siretart> plus manual uploads
[02:39] <ogra> siretart, thats a no go
[02:39] <ajmitch> \sh: UniverseSecurity was written to be best-effort
[02:39] <siretart> ogra: I know
[02:39] <Yagisan> siretart - that would miss packages like mine
[02:39] <\sh> ogra: for sure...that's not the questions...the question is: release snapshot 6.04 -> supporting 3 years a package base of >10k 
[02:39] <ajmitch> testing is often less stable than unstable
[02:40] <ogra> siretart, what enables us to have 6 month releases it the non existence of "testing"
[02:40] <Nafallo> \sh: I agree with you fwiw. we can't have support for universe in dapper. please convince people on UBZ about that ;-).
[02:40] <Kamion> officially the support just covers main
[02:40] <Kamion> AFAIK
[02:40] <Kamion> but the better universe can be made, the better
[02:40] <Kamion> (obviously)
[02:40] <ogra> Kamion++
[02:40] <ajmitch> Kamion: most likely, but people will want to run universe packages
[02:40] <siretart> ogra: I'm clear and happy about that disicion. 
[02:40] <dholbach> and we should make more use of *-{updates,security} (and no, this is no argument for lax rules)
[02:40] <Yagisan> well we will have dapper-updates for a reason
[02:40] <ajmitch> dholbach: agreed
[02:41] <ogra> siretart, and grabbing from debian testing will give us more outdated SW
[02:41] <siretart> the other possibility would be to use dapper-updates for less than critical bugfixes
[02:41] <\sh> Kamion: this is one point we should discuss at UBZ...how we see universe as one piece of work (even seeing it only community/volunteer supported) for dapper
[02:41] <siretart> after dapper release. 
[02:41] <ogra> Yagisan, yes as we have hoary and warty udates
[02:41] <ajmitch> sounds like UBZ might have a few universe BOFs :)
[02:41] <ogra> yup
[02:41] <Yagisan> ogra: but they don't get much use
[02:41] <siretart> yup, we should have
[02:41] <ogra> Yagisan, they do for the purposed they were made for
[02:42] <ogra> -d
[02:42] <\sh> ogra: are they usefull for universe as well? if so, how do we use them? ,-)
[02:42] <ajmitch> ok, how much mroe can we discuss this now?
[02:42] <ajmitch> s/mroe/more/
[02:42] <ogra> nothing, lets move it to UBZ
[02:42] <dholbach> ajmitch: we should agree to defer
[02:42] <ajmitch> ok
[02:42] <dholbach> yeah, next item?
[02:42] <\sh>  Transitions, Testbuilds etc. Last workload to fix (StephanHermann) (status report)
[02:42] <ogra> just make sure we dont have anybody introducing any breakage in breezy *now*
[02:42] <\sh> I pointed most of the things out on the wiki page...
[02:43] <\sh>  CXX Transition is done. 
[02:43] <ajmitch> ogra: well I'll have a new upstream for f-spot next week, but I know what bugs it fixes :)
[02:43] <dholbach> excellent
[02:43] <ogra> ajmitch thats ok :)
[02:43] <\sh>  Unmet Deps -> slomo said 92 packages are left...
[02:43] <dholbach> i will write a script that will take the popcon info and the test-build info and merge them
[02:43] <ogra> sounds good for 3 weeks left
[02:43] <slomo> \sh: 88 source packages... including main ones
[02:44] <\sh> slomo: ok...88 :)
[02:44] <ogra> :)
[02:44] <\sh> some of them are haskell stuff
[02:44] <ajmitch> some of the unmet deps are old, crufty, and some of them are removed from debian
[02:44] <Nafallo> baah. I read popcorn. I want a script for making popcorn :-P.
[02:44] <\sh> so ghc6 specialists are needed ;)
[02:44] <siretart> sistpoty?
[02:44] <siretart> ;)
[02:44] <ogra> Nafallo, write it, youre a MOTU :)
[02:44] <sistpoty> hm... i can't say I'm a specialist ;) but i'll give my best;)
[02:44] <\sh> everything which is not fixable, no new upstream, no new work, should be listed asap on morgue
[02:45] <ogra> nope
[02:45] <ogra> only stuff users wont demand...
[02:45] <\sh> ogra: please add a && in between the points
[02:45] <ogra> even if it doesnt build, the source might be good to have
[02:45] <\sh> or s/\,/\&\&/
[02:45] <slomo> for the haskell stuff... it is behind my name on the unmet deps page... but everybody can take the stuff, i will get to it in 2 weeks otherwise (no time before that :( )
[02:46] <ogra> s/doesnt build/is not fixable, no new upstream, no new work/
[02:46] <sistpoty> slomo: ok
[02:46] <ajmitch> 2 weeks from now is < 1 week from release, right?
[02:46] <ogra> yup
[02:46] <ajmitch> so we'd better help out as much as we can
[02:46] <\sh> sistpoty: please check then hmake ;)
[02:46] <\sh> or slomo ;)
[02:46] <sistpoty> ' \sh:  i will ;)
[02:46] <\sh> sistpoty: thx :)
[02:46] <Nafallo> I can check slomo :-)
[02:46] <slomo> \sh: i already tried to fix it... isn't that easy ;)
[02:46] <sistpoty> hehe
[02:47] <\sh> Ok...another important thing is:
[02:47] <\sh> testbuilds running now and again 
[02:47] <\sh> you can find the logs to those testbuilds on http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/Test/
[02:47] <dholbach> > "i will write a script that will take the popcon info and the test-build info and merge them"  :)
[02:48] <Nafallo> hmm, we need an ografying effect on that URL :-)
[02:48] <dholbach> how is the gl/glu transition going on?
[02:48] <\sh> important note: The testbuilds are not synced with the actual builds, so it's a snapshot of a certain date
[02:49] <ogra> Nafallo, dholbachs script will do...
[02:49] <Nafallo> k. I like those colorthingies :-). much easier to see what happens :-)
[02:49] <\sh> when u need some informations about those outputs...please ask infinity or lamont, they can help you to understand ;)
[02:50] <dholbach> how is the gl/glu transition going on?
[02:50] <dholbach> are there much untransitioned items still?
[02:50] <ogra> Nafallo, true, but as long as it runs through my own server i'd like to keep the traffic low... bunzipping on the fly is cpu consuming ;)
[02:50] <Nafallo> ogra: hehe :-)
[02:50] <siretart> dholbach: I must admit, that I lost the overview, sorry :(
[02:51] <dholbach> i guess, we will find them in the test-rebuild list
[02:51] <\sh> Here is what I got when running the above (Updated 2005-09-15): (BarrydeFreese)
[02:51] <\sh> boson-base, felt, galan, ghc-cvs, ghc5, libsdl-erlang, ncbi-tools6, poker3d
[02:51] <Nafallo> poker3d is fixed when I runned it 4 days later.
[02:53] <\sh> ok
[02:53] <siretart> boson-base is a beast, I tried and failed :(
[02:53] <\sh> siretart: even new upstream (from real upstream) is buggy
[02:53] <siretart> oh
[02:53] <siretart> :/
[02:53] <\sh> as many of sources on worldforge
[02:53] <ajmitch> ghc5 can be dropped, as can ghc-cvs?
[02:54] <\sh> there are many things from old kde sources included which is fcking shit
[02:54] <sistpoty> hm... -cvs seems to be a cvs snapshot... if we pull newest sources it shouldn't be that hard to get it to work
[02:54] <\sh> sistpoty: nescessary to have it for breezy?
[02:54] <Nafallo> yepp, still the same except poker3d :-)
[02:54] <sistpoty> ' \sh: no
[02:56] <\sh> sistpoty: so leave it as broken package or remove the binaries by elmo and leave it as source? ,-)
[02:56] <Yagisan> is it possible (in future) for when we upload something to revu
[02:56] <sistpoty> ' \sh: a old version of the -cvs is almost useless... ;)
[02:57] <Yagisan> that we can get it autobuild on all ubuntu arches
[02:57] <\sh> sistpoty: ok...so morgue
[02:57] <Yagisan> with build logs sent to us ?
[02:57] <\sh> Yagisan: if you provide an amd64 + ppc?
[02:57] <ogra> Yagisan, we have the buildds for that...
[02:57] <\sh> + ia64 + sparc64? ,-)
[02:57] <\sh> and sparc32 ,-)
[02:58] <Nafallo> I wish tiber was amd64 so that we could build amd64+i386 :-)
[02:58] <ogra> revu is for review, a testbuild on one arch is a nice goddie, but cant replace the real buildds
[02:58] <sistpoty> Yagisan: autobuilding on i386 is planned however ;)
[02:58] <siretart> developer machines would be nice ;)
[02:58] <Yagisan> yep - but it's nice to fix the bugs  before that get into universe
[02:58] <Yagisan> s/that/they
[02:58] <ogra> i think thats something to address at UBZ
[02:59] <\sh> yes
[02:59] <ajmitch> once launchpad is fully operational, people will be able to do autobuilds on canonical's servers
[02:59] <Nafallo> Yagisan: that's why everyone builds them and leave a comment? ;-)
[02:59] <siretart> wow
[02:59] <ajmitch> since they just commit a branch, and request a build of that branch
[02:59] <ajmitch> afaict
[02:59] <ajmitch> it's some serious crack going on there ;)
[02:59] <Nafallo> siretart: ey! could we have checkboxes? tested on: [X]  amd64 [X]  i386 [X]  ppc ?
[03:00] <sistpoty> Nafallo: good idea ;)
[03:00] <siretart> Nafallo: would be possible, file a bug in trac ;)
[03:00] <Yagisan> very good idea
[03:00] <lamont> ajmitch: that is correct
[03:00] <Nafallo> hmm, where is this trac-thingie? :-P
[03:00] <ajmitch> lamont: about the crack? :)
[03:00] <lamont> although first-launch you only get FCC architectures, I believe.
[03:01] <lamont> no, about what launchpad does.
[03:01] <sistpoty> Nafallo: http://revu.tauware.de/cgi-bin/trac.cgi
[03:01] <ajmitch> lamont: right
[03:01] <\sh> http://revu.tauware.de/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/
[03:02] <ajmitch> what other meeting topics? .desktop files?
[03:02] <\sh> yes...when we have time we should also work on them
[03:02] <sistpoty> is there some doc to .desktop files?
[03:03] <ajmitch> there are some wiki pages
[03:03] <ajmitch> it's fairly basic to write the files
[03:03] <sistpoty> k
[03:03] <ajmitch> moderately easy to get them installed with the package
[03:03] <\sh> checking before if upstream (== debian and real) has one. if not, then create one, if yes, include it
[03:04] <Nafallo> ticket 5 filed :-)
[03:04] <ajmitch> debian often has the menu file, which can be converted I believe
[03:04] <Lathiat> with menu-xdg
[03:05] <siretart> ajmitch: for very basic things, perhaps. xdg and .desktop files are more mighty, I think..
[03:05] <ajmitch> siretart: sure, but we usually just want something basic so a user can start an app
[03:05] <ogra> but they are essential for g-a-i
[03:05] <siretart> right, too
[03:05] <ajmitch> right, I forgot about g-a-i using them
[03:06] <Yagisan> g-a-i ?
[03:06] <ajmitch> gnome-app-install
[03:06] <Yagisan> thanks
[03:06] <ajmitch> iirc :)
[03:06] <ajmitch> or add applications in your applications menu on breezy 
[03:07] <\sh> ajmitch: gnome that is ;)
[03:08] <ajmitch> \sh: well that's what all the cool people use ;)
[03:09] <sistpoty> ;)
[03:09] <siretart> lol
[03:10] <\sh> ajmitch: then i'm uber-kewl...i'm using both .. or even a n00b ;-)
[03:10] <ajmitch> haha
[03:10] <ajmitch> any other meeting business?
[03:10] <\sh> next meeting? 
[03:10] <ajmitch> mm, thanks :)
[03:10] <dholbach> after UBZ?
[03:11] <ajmitch> at UBZ? :)
[03:11] <dholbach> hehe
[03:11] <ajmitch> since UBZ is 2-3 weeks after release
[03:11] <\sh> _at_ for some MOTUS, after with all MOTUs (well all!=all in this sense, well...gnarf)
[03:11] <ajmitch> not sure when dapper is open for upload
[03:11] <siretart> what are our priorities to release?
[03:11] <ajmitch> but we'll want to do some planning
[03:12] <ogra> ajmitch, one or two weeks after UBZ i guess
[03:12] <\sh> ajmitch: i think it will be open much faster then the last time
[03:12] <ajmitch> ogra: breezy was open for uploads at UDU
[03:12] <ogra> during UDU iic
[03:12] <ajmitch> we were doing crazy mono uploads, remember
[03:12] <ajmitch> so shall we have our next MOTU meeting between release day & UBZ?
[03:13] <ajmitch> it'll give us some ideas for BOFs as well
[03:13] <ogra> yup
[03:13] <\sh> ok
[03:13] <ogra> and one at UBZ 
[03:13] <ajmitch> ok
[03:13] <Yagisan> whats the policy for "freelancers" like me - that aren't motu's - pass our stuff through revu ?
[03:13] <Kamion> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 00:05:56 +0100 (BST)
[03:13] <ogra> i.e. a BOF/Meeting mix
[03:13] <Kamion> ^-- first upload to breezy
[03:13] <Kamion> UDU was 25-30 April
[03:14] <ogra> ah, ok
[03:14] <\sh> what about 2005-10-19? 
[03:14] <dholbach> Yagisan: you'll be a MOTU soon, but before, people will sponsor your uploads
[03:14] <ajmitch> Yagisan: yeah, or put them up on the appropriate wiki page
[03:14] <\sh> for the BoF/MOTU meeting?
[03:14] <Nafallo> wow. it was open _before_ UDU :-P
[03:14] <ajmitch> \sh: sounds good
[03:14] <ajmitch> \sh: time of day?
[03:14] <Kamion> hoary release was 8 April
[03:14] <\sh> any objections? so swapping time to 20UTC/22UTC?
[03:15] <Kamion> so expect dapper to be open early the week after breezy release
[03:15] <Nafallo> 20 should work :-)
[03:15] <ajmitch> Kamion: great, thanks
[03:15] <Kamion> there was a semi-official "go and get some sleep" policy for the weekend after hoary release
[03:15] <Nafallo> that's 22 for me :-P
[03:15] <ajmitch> Kamion: we'll have syncs starting pretty much straight away?
[03:16] <\sh> any voices on the time?
[03:16] <Kamion> ajmitch: should imagine so, yes; that was how it worked for breezy
[03:16] <ajmitch> \sh: 20UTC is good for me
[03:16] <Nafallo> \sh: NOT 22 ;-)
[03:16] <\sh> ok 2005-10-19 20:00 UTC 
[03:16] <\sh> 3
[03:16] <\sh> 2
[03:16] <\sh> 1
[03:16] <\sh> settled ;) 
[03:16] <ajmitch> yay ;)
[03:16] <sistpoty> yeehaa
[03:17] <Nafallo> we :-)
[03:17] <ajmitch> beer time now? ;)
[03:17] <Nafallo> close the meeting now? :-)
[03:17] <Yagisan> not quite
[03:17] <dholbach> yeah
[03:17] <\sh> something else for now?
[03:17] <sistpoty> ajmitch: damn, it's early afternoon here ;)
[03:17] <Yagisan> I will do a quick sec update of prelink
[03:17] <\sh> I'm still in the office ;)
[03:17] <Yagisan> for hoary
[03:17] <ajmitch> sistpoty: shall I do minutes, or do you want to do them this time?
[03:17] <Yagisan> who do I send it too ?
[03:17] <ajmitch> Yagisan: ok, usual security review procedures for that
[03:18] <Nafallo> Yagisan: security-review@lists.ubuntu.com :-)
[03:18] <sistpoty> ajmitch: i could write up a draft, and correct my sh*t?
[03:18] <Yagisan> it's fixed in breezy
[03:18] <ajmitch> sistpoty: sure
[03:18] <Yagisan> but not hoary
[03:18] <sistpoty> ajmitch: cool
[03:18] <ajmitch> Yagisan: that's fine, but pitti will review & probably upload
[03:18] <ajmitch> sistpoty: thanks :)
[03:18] <Yagisan> pitti fixed breezy (after I nagged him)
[03:18] <Nafallo> Yagisan: https://wiki.ubuntu.com//SecurityUpdateProcedures
[03:19] <\sh> ok I'll update the wiki pages
[03:19] <ogra> err, does that fit into the TZ we are in at UBZ ?
[03:19] <sistpoty> ajmitch: np ;)
[03:19] <Yagisan> thanks
[03:19] <ajmitch> Yagisan: was that the address space exposure?
[03:19] <Yagisan> yep
[03:19] <ajmitch> ogra: that's the pre-UBZ meeting
[03:19] <Yagisan> it's like 30 seconds to fix
[03:20] <\sh> ogra: pre-UBZ ;)
[03:20] <ogra> oh, ok
[03:20] <ajmitch> ogra: we'll be starting UBZ about 11-12 days later
[03:20] <Yagisan> but it will be on my business website the day breezy comes out
[03:20] <\sh> ogra: UBZ is starting for me with a beer...;)
[03:20] <ogra> \sh said BoF/MOTU meeting, i mixed that up
[03:20] <\sh> ogra: yes...some points for additional BoFs at UBZ ;)
[03:20] <ogra> yup
[03:20] <ogra> got it now :)
[03:20] <Yagisan> so I thought I may as well fix it now
[03:21] <ajmitch> \sh: only 1 beer? :)
[03:21] <Nafallo> ey! it's kernel freeze today?
[03:21] <ajmitch> Nafallo: yup
[03:21] <\sh> ajmitch: a beer means "sitting at cologne airport and drink at least 3 before 10:45" ,-)
[03:22] <ajmitch> \sh: haha
[03:22] <Nafallo> that means I could upgrade my server.
[03:22] <\sh> kernelfreeze is 29th , right?
[03:22] <slomo> oh no... so breezy will be incompatible with my ibook :(
[03:22] <ajmitch> \sh: I've got a few stops on the way - so I might hit the bars at the airport :)
[03:22] <ajmitch> \sh: I heard vancouver has free wifi too :)
[03:22] <\sh>  September 29th
[03:22] <\sh> 
[03:22] <\sh> 
[03:22] <\sh> Breezy: ArtworkDeadline, NonLanguagePackTranslationDeadline, KernelFreeze
[03:22] <Nafallo> stupid ISP not giving me higher bandwidth :-(
[03:22] <\sh> 
[03:22] <\sh> ajmitch: lets what ffm has ;)
[03:23] <Treenaks> \sh: Kln? I thought you were flying from Frankfurt?
[03:23] <\sh> frankfurt/main even
[03:23] <ajmitch> Yagisan: if there's any other issues, please let us know if you can :)
[03:23] <\sh> Treenaks: I start at cologne via frankfurt straight to montreal ;)
[03:23] <Yagisan> ajmitch - I do - as allways
[03:23] <Treenaks> \sh: ah.. I'm still on Schiphol -> Heathrow -> Montreal
[03:23] <\sh> Treenaks: in frankfurt I will meet with siretart ;)
[03:23] <Nafallo> \sh: the last kernel comes today, then they will have a week to squash the bugs in it ;-)
[03:23] <Treenaks> \sh: together with spacey
[03:24] <Yagisan> usually give one - two weeks before sticking it on my website
[03:24] <\sh> Treenaks: read about it :) 
[03:24] <ajmitch> Yagisan: great, thanks
[03:24] <Yagisan> depending on severity
[03:24] <ajmitch> so I've got a few hours at least of sitting in airports on the way there
[03:24] <Yagisan> I sat on prelink since UDU because it's not directly expoitable
[03:25] <ogra> Yagisan, where in .au are you ? 
[03:25] <Yagisan> Sydney
[03:25] <ajmitch> ogra: you met him at UDU, remember?
[03:26] <ajmitch> or at least I think you met him..
[03:26] <ogra> Yagisan, lifeless or jdub should be able to sign you then
[03:26] <Treenaks> ogra: jdub is going to be hard during his tour :)
[03:26] <ajmitch> lifeless is back there now from london
[03:26] <ogra> ajmitch, since he cant find a photo, i still dont know who he is :)
[03:26] <Nafallo> Yagisan: good :-)
[03:26] <Yagisan> ogra: I have a scanner - give me a few minutes
[03:27] <ogra> Treenaks, did that start already  
[03:27] <ogra> ?
[03:27] <Treenaks> ogra: no, Oct 7
[03:28] <ogra> ajmitch, i guess he knows why he didnt come ;)
[03:28] <ajmitch> ogra: perhaps :)
[03:28] <\sh> ajmitch: he is worse then diablo-3d?
[03:29] <ogra> heh
[03:34] <ajmitch> night all
[03:34] <Yagisan> night ajmitch
[03:35] <dholbach> night andrew
[04:36] <Ivarix> mako: ping pong :-)