[12:03] <sabdfl> i think its documented in the wiki
[12:03] <arzajac> Travis Newman, too.
[12:03] <\sh> sabdfl: that's easy to implement in php
[12:03] <ubuntugeek> jdodson: sorry..
[12:03] <sabdfl> somewhere
[12:03] <jdodson> ubuntugeek: i am a software engineer by trade.
[12:03] <Nafallo> sabdfl: does that include ubuntu-se.org? :-)
[12:03] <jdodson> ubuntugeek: ah, right, that whole, you dont like me thing...:)
[12:03] <sabdfl> cool. jdodson, if you and \sh and spiv could work on it in #launchpad, we can have this done in a week or two, max
[12:03] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: ok so back on topic, we know we need to integrate..
[12:03] <sabdfl> ok. some questions
[12:04] <Seveas> ubuntugeek, don't let personal feelings interfere with being a moderator...
[12:04] <Seveas> or administrator
[12:04] <sabdfl> "split personality that is looking familiar" what's that all about?
[12:04] <\sh> sabdfl: as the specs are on LP wiki no problem...(again something on my TODO *sigh*)
[12:04] <jdodson> ubuntgeek: personal feelings and harsh emotions are why we are here in the first place, right?
[12:04] <Kamion> jdodson: seems best not to rub people's faces in disagreements ... they get resolved quicker if you don't bring them up all the time, IME :)
[12:04] <Kamion> although I know we're here to deal with this one
[12:04] <ubuntugeek> kamion: agreed..
[12:04] <jdodson> Kamion: ah right, good point.  
[12:04] <jdodson> sorry.
[12:05] <jdodson> i wasnt expecting christmas presents anyway....
[12:05] <sabdfl> anybody know what that comment was referring to?
[12:05] <Kamion> sabdfl: sorry, where's that from?
[12:05] <smurf> jdodson: sometimes people do need to be reminded that this is supposed not to be kindergarten... "I don't want to play with you any more. Ever!"
[12:06] <jdodson> smurf: fair enough.
[12:06] <sabdfl> http://apqi.com/ubuntu/ubuntuforums/ustoo1.html  #12
[12:06] <sabdfl> Kamion: ^
[12:06] <Kamion> ah, that, yes
[12:06] <Kamion> is KiwiNZ here?
[12:07] <\sh> jdodson: please ping me tomorrow somehow (what TZ are u from?) and have a look on this: https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/AuthServer , thx
[12:07] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: I wasnt part of that conversation on the forum so I am not sure as to what this means.. I dont this he is..
[12:07] <sabdfl> guys, in a loose and volunteer team, there's always disagreements, and always churn
[12:07] <jdodson> \sh: no problem.
[12:07] <sabdfl> people come in, have fun, get tired, and leave
[12:07] <jdodson> \sh: PST
[12:07] <sabdfl> and the main thing is to try and focus on the things that you enjoy together
[12:08] <arzajac> I think kiwi was worried that Ubuntu was becoming "corporate"
[12:08] <\sh> jdodson: k..ping me whenever you're online or mail me at sh@sourcecode.de
[12:08] <sabdfl> arzajac: well, i hope that corporates like ubuntu, because they will help make it sustainable. but we will also push back hard enough to keep it free, and open
[12:08] <sabdfl> at least, thats the plan
[12:09] <sabdfl> one thing that concerns me is this
[12:09] <sabdfl> the moderators / admins in the forums are kind of critical to the ubuntu community
[12:09] <Kamion> arzajac: (sabdfl posted an interesting "sabdfl faq" on sounder@ recently about that)
[12:09] <jdodson> sabdfl: ah yes, that thread was written around the time the admins were starting to dislike ubuntu proper(thats you) and getting pretty bitter about what you were doing, etc.
[12:09] <arzajac> You would have to talk to him about it.  I agree with you.
[12:09] <sabdfl> but there were obviously a lot of outstanding questions among them that were not raise in the CC, or ubuntu-dev
[12:10] <Seveas> They should simply have asked instead of guessed
[12:10] <jdodson> sabdfl: the admins are mostly reactive and not terrible proactive in the area of confrontation.
[12:10] <sabdfl> i don't doubt that i can get up people's noses
[12:10] <arzajac> They followed Ryan
[12:10] <sabdfl> but what concerns me is that these doubts and concerns were not aired here, with me and the cc and the core devs, sooner
[12:10] <Simira> why were they there in the first place, if they dislike the ubuntu community? I thought the community was an essential part here...?
[12:10] <Nafallo> Simira++
[12:10] <sabdfl> if we want to have the forums team feel part of THIS team, then we need to have better comms
[12:10] <arzajac> No one really knoew what the relationship between Ubuntu proper and the forums was, back then.
[12:11] <sabdfl> Simira: it's somewhat natural
[12:11] <Kamion> there seemed to be a fair bit of guesswork going on on all sides
[12:11] <jdodson> sabdfl: i totally agree with you.
[12:11] <sabdfl> as the community gets bigger, you can get micro-communities forming
[12:11] <sabdfl> and diverging
[12:11] <ubuntugeek> kamion: there is guess work.. its all speculation.
[12:11] <sabdfl> that guesswork turned into strongly help opinions without any real attempt to get clarity
[12:11] <\sh> moon, money, jealous
[12:12] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: agreed..
[12:12] <Kamion> ubuntugeek: some speculation, though, can be turned into fact by asking :)
[12:12] <Simira> I would consider the admins/mods to be a part of the community, whether they like it or not...
[12:12] <sabdfl> so i guess the one thing i would say is that ubuntugeek, Seveas, kassetra and others should feel free to participate in the CC meetings
[12:12] <sabdfl> that way we are likely to have fewer miscommunications
[12:12] <Seveas> sabdfl, i'm no forum member
[12:12] <ubuntugeek> I dont think I personall every considered myself not part of the community or i would have not poored the last 11 months of my life into the forums.
[12:12] <Seveas> I really dislike them
[12:12] <\sh> Seveas: now u are ;)
[12:12] <Seveas> (forums in general I mean)
[12:12] <Kamion> Seveas: I thought you described yourself earlier as an "impartial moderator"?
[12:12] <sabdfl> and when we disagree, at least we will know we are really disagreeing, not just getting suspicious that we SHOULD be disagreeing
[12:13] <Seveas> Kamion, I was a bit unclear there
[12:13] <Kamion> Seveas: oh, sorry, you were quoting somebody else
[12:13] <thoreauputic> Kamion: I think he was quoting
[12:13] <Seveas> I've been talking to one for over an hour about this :)
[12:13] <Seveas> in fact, close to 2 hours
[12:14] <bored2k> join #motu
[12:14] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: true
[12:14] <bored2k> mybad
[12:14] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: are you open to inviting some of the "fired" moderators back into the fold, to see if this is reparable?
[12:15] <sabdfl> is my bandwidth gone again?
[12:15] <Seveas> no
[12:15] <ogra> ...
[12:15] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: typing sec 
[12:16] <Seveas> for the record: both other toopics on the agenda have been handled already, this is the last topic for today
[12:16] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek, i fear my client will cut of anything else you try to get one this one line :-)
[12:17] <arzajac> Seveas:  Would you like to defer my membership application untill the next meeting?
[12:17] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: I dont think bring them back as moderators will solve any issues, I encourage them to be part of forums community though..
[12:17] <sabdfl> arzajac: sec
[12:17] <Seveas> arzajac, ehrm, right, forgot that
[12:17] <jdodson> ubuntugeek: so thats a no then?
[12:17] <arzajac> Seveas:  It is fine....  I really got to run... Wife is mad...  Supper not on table...
[12:17] <Seveas> ubuntugeek, why do you think that?
[12:17] <jdodson> arzajac: later azz!
[12:17] <Simira> hm, well... bed time here. Be nice, people.
[12:18] <sabdfl> arzajac: hold on a sec, i would +1 you for membership
[12:18] <ubuntugeek> seaves
[12:18] <sabdfl> on the basis of a long and sustained contribution
[12:18] <sabdfl> clear commitment, even if there have been disagreements along the way
[12:18] <sabdfl> membership is open to everybody who contributes and participates
[12:18] <Seveas> sabdfl, I think it's ok to do that in his absence, has happened before
[12:19] <sabdfl> ok
[12:19] <ubuntugeek> seveas: Because, I will not subject myself or the other moderators to this situation again.
[12:20] <\sh> sabdfl: should your idea of a forum council apply to all forums, doing official support for ubuntu?
[12:20] <Seveas> ubuntugeek, no disrespect, but you are both victim and cause of this, just like all others in this discussion
[12:20] <smurf> ubuntugeek: I don't think you can prevent that by excluding them, nor do I think the reverse is likely to be true
[12:20] <Seveas> I see no right or wrong here, just a (big) disagreement on things
[12:20] <sabdfl> \sh: i think any large community should have internal structures, that involve discussion and a chance to be heard fairly and openly
[12:20] <ubuntugeek> sveas: I would disagree with that statement..
[12:20] <sabdfl> and then be able to refer issues to the CC if they can't reach agreement
[12:21] <sabdfl> i think the "founder" or leader of a forum/community/group should have an extra say, but not a total say
[12:21] <Seveas> ubuntugeek, then please make all archived posts visible to us, so we can get a better view
[12:21] <\sh> sabdfl: so, actually it would be better to handle some "problems" internally with a fair result?
[12:21] <Seveas> the limited view both parties here give us really prevents a clear insight into the problem
[12:22] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: i think its fair criticism that you've sometimes tended to act in a way that ratchets up the tension, rather than creating space for disagreement
[12:22] <sabdfl> please take that as constructive criticism
[12:22] <sabdfl> running a group like this is extremely hard
[12:22] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: thats fine.. I do work 60 hours a week 
[12:22] <sabdfl> the guys who've had to put up with me for weeks at a stretch in sprints in foreign climes will tell you i can get a bit testy myself
[12:23] <Seveas> who doesn't get testy at times :)
[12:23] <sabdfl> i do think its worth being able to tolerate people and opinions that are irritating and frustrating sometimes
[12:23] <sabdfl> even if it bites
[12:23] <sabdfl> because often those same people make huge contributions elsewhere
[12:24] <titus`> in ubuntufr we have a mailing list for forum moderators and it works fine
[12:24] <sabdfl> it seems like all the guys who have been moderators and admins at one time or another, made HUGE contributions of time and energy
[12:24] <ubuntugeek> So, I have no problem with a forum dispute team that will handle forum complaints. I think any complaints should be brought up to the CC regardless if they were resolved or not resolve by the dispute team.
[12:24] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: that could be unmanageable
[12:24] <smurf> To be fair, sometimes people just plain don't get along with each other, but I don't think that's the core problem here, based on what I've read.
[12:24] <sabdfl> and if the forum dispute team has good credibility, people will respect its decisions
[12:24] <sabdfl> that's your challenge
[12:24] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: ok agreed..
[12:25] <Seveas> ubuntugeek, a forum dispute team where people are explicitely denied access based on this dispute is doomed to fail imho
[12:25] <sabdfl> it seems the major disagreements here were:
[12:25] <smurf> Seveas: +1
[12:25] <\sh> guys, I would propose u a nice article of Matt Dillon, Maintainer and founder of the DragonFly BSD port. http://solobsd.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=252
[12:25] <ubuntugeek> I would like to however state, if the old moderators would like to join a team on the forums they can. Teams are being setup to tackle certain areas of the forums, for example hardware, software, kde, gnome etc..
[12:25] <sabdfl>   (1) deleting posts that were deemed too controversial
[12:26] <\sh> read about "teamleading, project leading" quite nice and very true
[12:26] <ubuntugeek> Seveas: who said the people would not have access?
[12:26] <sabdfl>     => CoC and general Ubuntu policy would suggest that these should be re-published
[12:26] <sabdfl>  (2) suspicions and different viewpoints on the role of canonical and the management of ubuntu
[12:26] <Seveas> ubuntugeek, those teams looks like a nice plan 
[12:26] <Kamion> ubuntugeek: if that were treated as a way to rebuild trust, that could be good
[12:26] <ubuntugeek> kamion: agreed
[12:27] <Kamion> (if both sides have the will)
[12:27] <sabdfl>    => those should be brought to the CC or ubuntu-devel, at least so that opinions can be based on real statements rather than suspicions
[12:27] <Seveas> +2 on sabdfls points
[12:28] <sabdfl>   (3) failure of the CoC to give clear guidelines on forums type issues
[12:28] <sabdfl>     => we can ask this Forums Council to draft a document that addresses this
[12:28] <sabdfl> that's all i can see
[12:28] <sivang> night all, gotta hit bed
[12:28] <\sh> cu around sivang 
[12:29] <Seveas> sabdfl, firing moderators based on personal disagreements is also highly controversial
[12:29] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: it's your call, but i would strongly urge you to invite these guys back into a forums council
[12:29] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: note taken
[12:29] <sabdfl> and see if you can find a way to work through things
[12:29] <jdodson> ubuntgeek: so does that mean no then Ryan?
[12:29] <sabdfl> if you can, you will create a very vibrant and widely trusted community council
[12:29] <sabdfl> jdodson: let him think about it
[12:30] <jdodson> sabdfl: fair enough.
[12:30] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: I need to think this over.. This has been my passion for the last 11 months and I am not sure I am willing to repeat this.
[12:30] <sabdfl> jdodson: and recognise that perhaps you could make it easier to be forgiven ;-)
[12:30] <smurf> Both "sides" need to do some soul searching here... take your time.
[12:30] <jdodson> sabdfl: right.
[12:30] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: ok. will you agree to some sort of structure?
[12:31] <sabdfl> need to say (a) who starts on it, (b) how long they serve, (c) how to get new people onto it
[12:31] <sabdfl> i dont think you should get to fire people once they are on for a term
[12:31] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: yes, I think we need to create a dispute team. I will write up the policy etc next week..
[12:31] <sabdfl> draft it, bring it here. and you'll get a definite GO if you can get consensus amongst your former colleagues too
[12:32] <sabdfl> ok
[12:32] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: I will not have time this week, as I am traveling to seattle for a death in the family. But next week we will begin this process.
[12:32] <sabdfl> that's enough for tonight, i think
[12:32] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: that's fine
[12:32] <ogra> STOP
[12:32] <Seveas> ubuntugeek, will you be able to bring it to the next CC?
[12:32] <Seveas> sabdfl, one more thing
[12:32] <ogra> since we got the forum admins here
[12:32] <sabdfl> and i want to say again that we all owe a huge debt of gratitude for ubuntugeek's effort
[12:32] <ubuntugeek> seveas: when is the next meeting date?
[12:32] <Seveas> arzajac's membership
[12:32] <jdodson> yes i agree, ubuntgeek is to be commended on his efforts.
[12:32] <Seveas> ubuntugeek, 2 weeks from now, probably 14:00 UTC
[12:32] <sabdfl> +1 from me
[12:33] <ubuntugeek> seveas: yes it will be done
[12:33] <smurf> ubuntugeek: ++
[12:33] <Seveas> elmo, Kamion, would you mind giving your vote in his absence?
[12:33] <Seveas> ubuntugeek, please fix the gateway to the mailinglist first ;)
[12:33] <sabdfl> he's put a huge amount of time into the forums, with varying levels of success :-)
[12:33] <ubuntugeek> seveas: whats it doing?
[12:34] <ubuntugeek> I would also like to thank jdong and kassetra and the other moderators for their commitment to the forums as well.
[12:34] <Seveas> ubuntugeek, no spam filtering and it gives everyone the name 'Forum Post'
[12:34] <ogra> another thing....
[12:34] <ubuntugeek> sevas: Yes, spam filtering in the next week.. I got the OK from jeff waugh on the forum post issue until it can be recoded..
[12:34] <ogra> ubuntugeek, afaik the initial planned setup for the ubuntu-devel mailing list was a read only portal, could you make that happen soon please
[12:34] <Seveas> ubuntugeek, if you can mail be the scripts responsible for incoming and outgoing mail, i'd be happy to provide patches
[12:34] <elmo> Seveas: 14 UTC is fine by me, but that's very early for mako
[12:35] <sabdfl> our student friends don;t rise and shine before nine...
[12:35] <Seveas> not true
[12:35] <ogra> many devs arent even reading -devel anymore due to the high signal to noise ration....
[12:35] <Seveas> make that noon :)
[12:35] <nybble>  lol sabdfl
[12:36] <elmo> ogra: be fair - -devel has S/N problems with or without forum posts
[12:36] <ogra> *ratio
[12:36] <ogra> elmo, they add it up
[12:36] <ubuntugeek> Ok folks we done for the night? The dispute team policy will be available online for the next CC meeting..
[12:36] <jdong> ogra: I don't think that's caused by the forums
[12:36] <Seveas> ubuntugeek, nice
[12:36] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: could you turn off the -devel list <=> forums altogether for the moment?
[12:36] <ogra> jdong, i'd say 50% are
[12:36] <Seveas> elmo, Kamion, no vote about arzajac?
[12:36] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: yes I can turn it off..
[12:37] <sabdfl> need to guard -devel jealously
[12:37] <ogra> jdong, ubuntugeek, and it was the agreed default setup afaik
[12:37] <ogra> ah, thanks sabdfl ...
[12:37] <Kamion> Seveas: I think I'd rather he came back and we can have the opportunity to check that he's still feeling ok about the community
[12:37] <ogra> lagging 
[12:37] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: i'll unsubscribe from the mailing list and make the forum read only for the time being
[12:37] <Kamion> I don't object to his membership, just would like to talk to him outside the context of a dispute
[12:37] <ogra> ubuntugeek, thans a lot :)
[12:37] <sabdfl> Kamion: i think he's fine with the community, just a bit mad with how things worked out between the forums admins
[12:37] <sabdfl> and recoverably so
[12:37] <jdong> ubuntugeek: better to hide it altoegether to avoid confusion
[12:38] <sabdfl> he's done a lot
[12:38] <ubuntugeek> jdong: good point
[12:38] <sabdfl> and membership would recognise that
[12:38] <Seveas> arzajac is still active on the forums
[12:38] <sabdfl>  </soapbox>
[12:38] <Kamion> sabdfl: hmm
[12:38] <Seveas> and won't let this dispute interfere with that
[12:38] <jdong> seveas: absolutely; great guy to have around :)
[12:38] <Kamion> ok, yeah, I can see that; I'll let you argue me round :)
[12:38] <Kamion> arzajac++
[12:38] <ubuntugeek> I would like to mention one thing azz is still very active on the forums and i commend him for his dedicated to helping on there.
[12:38] <Kamion> ubuntugeek: that's good to know, thanks
[12:38] <Seveas> ok, 2 down :)
[12:39] <jdong> absolutely; Azz still does great work for us
[12:39] <elmo> yeah, ack I guess
[12:39] <sabdfl> ok. seveas will you pass that on please?
[12:39] <sabdfl> arzajac: congratulations, and welcome aboard
[12:39] <Seveas> arzajac, congratz, hope you read it in your logs :)
[12:39] <Seveas> I'll edit the wiki again
[12:39] <Kamion> ubuntugeek: (I certainly don't have a problem with a read-only forum - it's entirely up to you how/if that's presented IMHO)
[12:39] <Kamion> er, you => you guys
[12:39] <nybble>  /msg arzajac congratulations :D
[12:39] <ubuntugeek> kamion: I'll remove it for now..
[12:39] <nybble> hehe
[12:40] <ubuntugeek> kamion: it will be in a few hours though..
[12:40] <Kamion> approved arzajac in LP
[12:40] <sabdfl> ok
[12:40] <sabdfl> thanks all
[12:40] <Seveas> it's been a long one
[12:40] <ubuntugeek> thanks everyone for resolving this is a clean matter
[12:40] <ogra> thanks sabdfl 
[12:40] <sabdfl> Seveas: thanks
[12:40] <dholbach> thank you
[12:40] <Kamion> and for the record, I approved the folks Seveas mentioned in the agenda in LP just before the meeting started
[12:40] <ubuntugeek> hey one last thing
[12:40] <ubuntugeek> :)
[12:40] <elmo> and they have email already
[12:41] <ubuntugeek> jdong, kassetra and myself have all been approved members but are not listed..
[12:41] <Kamion> if there's anyone else, please /msg and/or mail me about them and I'll check IRC logs and such to verify, then approve
[12:41] <\sh> that reminds me to put my @ubuntu.com mail address to my gpg key
[12:41] <Seveas> Kamion, I've mailed everyone on that list :)
[12:41] <Kamion> ubuntugeek: have you applied to join the team in launchpad? https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers
[12:41] <jdong> \sh: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=374236 may please you :)
[12:41] <Seveas> bddebian, if you're a member you have
[12:41] <ogra> \sh, and sign your packages with it ;)
[12:41] <Seveas> it's your launchpad name
[12:41] <jdong> Seveas: I don't either :-/
[12:41] <bddebian> Seveas: It doesn't work
[12:41] <Kamion> ubuntugeek: that needs to happen or we can't approve you
[12:41] <ubuntugeek> kamion: not there no.. i'll do so
[12:41] <Kamion> ubuntugeek: ok, thanks
[12:42] <Kamion> Seveas: I can check for each one without needing to ask them, although it takes a little time because we've got behind
[12:42] <dholbach> good night everybody
[12:42] <\sh> jdong: ah ;) well... and this is "sorry jdong" for you :) http://linux.blogweb.de/archives/109-Shout-it,-shout-it,-shout-it-out-loud....html
[12:42] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: are you NOT A MEMBER?
[12:42] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: I was voted in a few months ago but nothing ever happened with it
[12:42] <\sh> ogra: nope...sh@sourcecode.de i am and will ever sign ;) 
[12:42] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: ok. now we have those bits of LP :-)
[12:42] <ogra> ubuntugeek, have you sent your signed CoC ?
[12:43] <ogra> back then that is
[12:43] <sabdfl> you need to join the ubuntumembers team there, and then do the CoC signing dance
[12:43] <Seveas> Kamion, the rest of them (except for one of whom i'm not sure) are not members
[12:43] <Seveas> I;ll poke him before the next meeting
[12:43] <ubuntugeek> sabdl: ok will do that there
[12:43] <ubuntugeek> same with jdong and kassetra
[12:43] <sabdfl> cool. all of you guys should be members
[12:44] <sabdfl> as should any forums guys that are regularly helpful with answers and suggestions
[12:44] <\sh> last cigarette for today
[12:44] <sabdfl> any substantial and sustained contribution...
[12:44] <ubuntugeek> great i will pass this along.. 
[12:44] <ubuntugeek> thanks again everyone see you at the next meeting, off to fight traffic
[12:44] <Nafallo> \sh: s/day/life/
[12:44] <Nafallo> :-)
[12:44] <sabdfl> please encourage forums guys who are good contributors to come here and become members, they get @ubuntu.com email addresses
[12:44] <Seveas> ubuntugeek, more forums people should attend these meetings and/or become members :)
[12:44] <\sh> Nafallo: grrrr ;)
[12:45] <jdong> sabdfl: idn about the others; I was never sent a CoC to sign
[12:45] <ubuntugeek> night all
[12:45] <sabdfl> jdong: check out your home page in launchpad
[12:45] <Seveas> jdong, it's done on the launchpaf
[12:45] <Seveas> pad*
[12:45] <sabdfl> its all there
[12:45] <nybble> anyways.. great meeting. gotta head to the drug store, bbl :D
[12:45] <sabdfl> it's not very discoverable
[12:45] <ogra> Nafallo, bah... you need one real addicion in your life to have to overcome something :)
[12:45] <sabdfl> like a little test :-)
[12:45] <Nafallo> ogra: computers? :-)
[12:45] <sturmkind> hehe
[12:45] <Kamion> Seveas: ok, thanks a lot for chasing that stuff up
[12:46] <ogra> night ubuntugeek 
[12:46] <sturmkind> so i had to go to bad, it's late ^^ (00:46 am here)
[12:46] <Yann2> great meeting :) going to bed now. Night everybody!
[12:46] <Seveas> 'nigh
[12:46] <Seveas> t
[12:46] <Seveas> 00:46 here too, meh, and I have a lunch appointment with Treenaks tomorrow
[12:46] <zakame> g'night to all on the other side of the world! =)
[12:46] <bddebian> heh
[12:47] <sturmkind> greet meeting wish you all a good day/night
[12:47] <jdong> sabdfl: the things that make me feel retarded :D
[12:47] <Seveas> in the view of sabdfls remark about students I'm gonna get little sleep :)
[12:47] <sturmkind> bye ;-)
[12:47] <zakame> 'tis sunrise here in my end =)
[12:47] <LinuxPeach> super_genius_jdong.
[12:47] <sabdfl> SEC
[12:47] <sabdfl> sorry
[12:47] <sabdfl> damn. Kamion?
[12:47] <Kamion> here
[12:47] <sabdfl> i'd like to nominate mjg59 for a place on the tech board
[12:48] <sabdfl> also, am considering further nominations for tech board and community council
[12:48] <sabdfl> suggestions welcome
[12:48] <\sh> wow
[12:48] <\sh> mjg59 is a good decision
[12:48] <bddebian> Aye
[12:48] <Kamion> I'd heartily second mjg59, if he's willing
[12:48] <jdong> Ubuntite!              Not yet       
[12:48] <Nafallo> indeed
[12:48] <sabdfl> we now have a basic voting mechanism in launchpad
[12:48] <Kamion> I'll ruminate on others who might be a good idea
[12:48] <sabdfl> so this should be easy to arrange
[12:48] <jdong> so where's this magical statement?
[12:49] <ogra> jdong, you need to upload your key and sign the CoC
[12:49] <Nafallo> sabdfl: is it all devels or the core-devs that should vote? :-)
[12:49] <sabdfl> we need to set a date for the vote, and need to announce it on the -devel list
[12:49] <sabdfl> Nafallo: all devels
[12:49] <Kamion> my wife's waiting for me decreasingly patiently, though :)
[12:49] <bddebian> heh
[12:49] <Nafallo> nice.
[12:49] <Kamion> what's the techboard term of office again?
[12:50] <Nafallo> ogra: lol
[12:50] <ogra> Nafallo, its the truth ! (despite that we're not married)
[12:50] <jdong> ogra: thx; got it
[12:50] <ogra> :)
[12:51] <Kamion> ah, two years for CC with annual nominations, one year for TB with six-monthly nominations, ok
[12:51] <\sh> ogra: u r alone now?
[12:51] <ogra> yup
[12:51] <ogra> for a week
[12:52] <\sh> ogra: and fred had his walk today?
[12:52] <\sh> ,-)
[12:52] <Nafallo> ogra: don't you have a kitchen you could have put her in? ;-)
[12:53] <ogra> \sh, nope, i'll do it now...
[12:53] <sabdfl> Kamion: maybe we should make the TB the same terms as the CC?
[12:53] <ogra> Nafallo, i have but it bores her, she's a webdesigner ;)
[12:53] <\sh> ogra: be carefull of the "kuhdung" ,-)
[12:53] <ogra> heh
[12:53] <Nafallo> hehe
[12:53] <ajmitch> sabdfl: how long would devs have for voting for TB?
[12:54] <nalioth> y'all be safe
[12:54] <sabdfl> ajmitch: we'll open up the voting soon, with a deadline, in total not more than a week from start to finish i imagine
[12:54] <sabdfl> maybe two weeks, so two TB meetings
[12:54] <sabdfl> to give him a chance to answer any questions
[12:54] <ajmitch> right
[12:55] <\sh> ok...I need to go to bed..
[12:55] <sabdfl> ok, night all
[12:55] <sabdfl> thanks Kamion, elmo, et al
[12:55] <ogra> night sabdfl 
[12:55] <\sh> thx sabdfl 
[12:55] <Seveas> 'night
[12:56] <\sh> and the others of course :)
[12:56] <Seveas> I'll make one attempt to fix the buggy bugbot and go to sleep too :)
[12:56] <Kamion> sabdfl: I think they're OK to be honest, but maybe we can talk about it later
[12:56] <Kamion> damn, missed him
[12:57] <sladen> I guess that's a wrap then
[12:57] <\sh> g'night folks...whereever you are, whatever you do ;)
[12:57] <zakame> g'morning! =)
[01:05] <jdong> anyone still left in here?
[01:05] <jdong> I'm ubuntite now, but what about that @ubuntu.com address?
[01:05] <siretart> jdong: you need to join the Ubuntu Members group in LP
[01:05] <jdong> aha
[01:07] <jdong> not seeing how to join?
[01:07] <siretart> jdong: see here https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers
[01:07] <Seveas>  add /+join to that url
[01:08] <siretart> at the bottom there is somewhere a corresponding link 
[01:08] <jdong> oh, cool
[01:08] <jdong> how do I navigate that through menus from launchpad.net
[01:08] <jdong> out of curiousity
[01:09] <jdong> nvm, figured it out
[01:10] <jdong> ok, waiting for approval; time to call it a day and do something else :)
[01:11] <Seveas> jdong, come to the next CC meeting
[01:11] <Seveas> and poke kamion
[01:11] <jdong> Seveas:? I've already been approved
[01:11] <jdong> Seveas: at least voting wise
[01:12] <jdong> Seveas: it was before those launchpad days
[01:12] <Seveas> I know
[01:12] <siretart> jdong: yes, but technically some admin of that LP group has to approve you
[01:12] <Seveas> but je jas to click on a button to approve you on LP
[01:12] <Seveas> he has
[01:12] <siretart> jdong: So you need to catch one of these admin to klick the right button ;)
[01:12] <jdong> aha, I see
[01:12] <jdong> I understand now
[01:12] <jdong> I'm slow today, sorry :)
[01:12] <jdong> good thing I haven't compiled any backports today 
[01:13] <Seveas> jdong, are you interested in updated NX packages?
[01:13] <Seveas> the ones in your repo are quite old (obsolete even)
[01:14] <Seveas> I've made the latest available on http://seveas.ubuntulinux.nl/
[01:14] <Seveas> (breezy only)
[01:54] <panickedthumb> anyone log this? Sorry, loooong day at work
[01:55] <Seveas> yes, ubuntulog logs it all
[01:56] <Seveas> people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione
[01:57] <panickedthumb> right!
[01:57] <panickedthumb> I forgot the url
[01:57] <panickedthumb> thanks
[02:50] <jdong> Seveas: Awesome; offended if I binary-import them to the future breezy-extras?
[02:52] <ogra> thumbs up for -extras :)
[02:52] <tseng> boggle
[02:57] <ogra> tseng, ah, come on...
[03:02] <jdong> so who are potential people I could poke for membership?
[03:03] <tseng> kamion, elmo
[03:03] <jdong> both of whom are not on IRC
[03:03] <jdong> heh, and I get completely blasted for not hanging out on IRC...
[03:03] <jdong> :)
[03:03] <tseng> they are on every day
[03:03] <ajmitch> both of whom are in the uk where it is about 2am :P
[03:03] <tseng> for long hours
[03:04] <jdong> lol, fine
[03:04] <jdong> :)
[03:04] <jdong> we don't use IRC in this country :)
[03:04] <jdong> we're AOL-dominated
[03:04] <tseng> what country would that be
[03:04] <jdong> USA....
[03:04] <jdong> I'm already nerdy enough
[03:04] <tseng> ive been using IRC for years
[03:05] <tseng> probably even in AOL days
[03:11] <ogra> now you scared mdz away 
[03:14] <ajmitch> :(
[03:25] <tseng> i think that was -extras
[03:26] <tseng> scares me too
[03:26] <ogra> heh
[03:26] <ogra> having the odd stuff in one place is better than having totally mixed up sources.lists out there
[03:27] <ogra> extras are only add ons they dont clash with our stuff...
[01:52] <JaneW> **Reminder** Edubuntu meeting here in 7 minutes 
[02:00] <JaneW> hello
[02:00] <JaneW> hi rickfitz 
[02:01] <rickfitz> JaneW: Hi
[02:03] <ogra_> hi all
[02:03] <JaneW> phone please start...
[02:03] <Yagisan> G'day all
[02:03] <Rickyniano> hi everybody
[02:04] <ogra_> i have not much to say about development, since my priorities were changed by mark... but the task that held me from edubuntu is nearly done...
[02:04] <ogra_> so i should be able to go on with the CD tomorrow
[02:05] <ogra_> no big status changes since last week
[02:05] <ogra_> any development questions ? 
[02:07] <Yagisan> any ideas on how local apps will be (for dapper) ?
[02:07] <ogra_> oh, while i see doko_, we seem to get an update for schooltool (if matt approves it)
[02:07] <JaneW> ogra_: serious issues still to be overcome before the release?
[02:07] <ogra_> JaneW, sameas last week...
[02:07] <ajmitch> ogra_: jinty is also around, fyi :)
[02:07] <JaneW> ogra_: and I need a basic overview of what all still needs to be done
[02:07] <ogra_> 4 bad bugs and some small glitches
[02:08] <JaneW> ogra_: ok
[02:08] <ogra_> i'll probably work around the installer bug for the lsp client builder with a text message ...
[02:08] <ogra_> *ltsp
[02:09] <ogra_> which would make that only 3 biggies
[02:10] <ogra_> oh, another thing... we have our own usplash working since today....
[02:11] <Rickyniano> As a computer science teacher, I would like to know if Edubuntu comes with a tool for remotely controlling the students' computers... Some tool like VNC or similar...
[02:11] <ogra_> Rickyniano, sadly not yet...
[02:11] <ogra_> it didnt make it in time... but will be in the next release
[02:11] <mhz> Rickyniano: what kind of "control" do you mean
[02:11] <mhz> ?
[02:11] <Rickyniano> ogra_: oh, what a pity
[02:11] <Yagisan> Rickyniano: that would need VNC running on the termonal
[02:11] <ogra_> Rickyniano, yup
[02:12] <sladen> ogra_: rockin
[02:12] <JaneW> ogra_: cool, re usplash
[02:12] <ogra_> Rickyniano, http://edubuntu.org/TeachersPet thats what we'll have in dapper
[02:12] <Rickyniano> mhz: something like "to see" the student's screen...
[02:12] <ogra_> sladen, jbaileys work ;)
[02:12] <Rickyniano> or "to control" the student's mouse and keyboard
[02:12] <Rickyniano> ogra_: ok, I'll see, thanks :)
[02:12] <JaneW> Rickyniano: it is definately in the plans for future, was meant to be there this time
[02:13] <JaneW> but your dev cycle was too short
[02:13] <ogra_> i'll try to provide a backport of it after release
[02:13] <JaneW> and we had constraints
[02:13] <Rickyniano> JaneW: of course, I understand
[02:13] <Rickyniano> ogra_: oh, superb :)
[02:14] <Rickyniano> thanks for all to everybody :)
[02:14] <ogra_> Rickyniano, http://www.grawert.net/SCP.png
[02:14] <mhz> ogra_: but isn't that kind of apps apt-getable after install?
[02:14] <Rickyniano> ogra_: mmmm... that screenshot seems great!
[02:14] <ogra_> mhz, nope, its not in the breezy archive... thats why i said i'll backport it early from dapper
[02:14] <JaneW> Rickyniano: please feel free to list anything you'd like to see in the next release ...
[02:15] <Rickyniano> JaneW: ok, I'll do
[02:15] <JaneW>  http://www.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuBelowZero
[02:15] <Treenaks> ogra_: you should strip the beards of the guys -- most pupils in schools don't have the ability to grow them yet ;)
[02:15] <JaneW> you can also look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/BOFs
[02:15] <ogra_> Treenaks, see it as a future target for them :) 
[02:15] <Treenaks> ogra_: :P
[02:15] <ogra_> (modulo the girls indeed)
[02:15] <JaneW> the suggestions will all be considered and/or actioned at UBZ
[02:15] <Rickyniano> Did you look at the work done by Linex in that way?
[02:16] <JaneW> Treenaks: ;)
[02:16] <Rickyniano> JaneW: ok, I did some in the wiki.ubuntu.com/UBZ/BOFs some days ago :) but not for edubuntu explicitly
[02:16] <ogra_> Rickyniano, the problem is that we use a completely new ltsp implementation... the old tools dont work with it
[02:16] <ogra_> else i'd have grabbed teacher tool to have something... even if its ugly
[02:17] <Rickyniano> ogra_: mmmm... ok, I see... you need to do a completely new tool by scratch, isn't it?
[02:17] <ogra_> (our ltsp doesnt use X export, all old tools rely on that)
[02:18] <Rickyniano> I only know about "ControlAulas" tool: http://www.itais.net/index.php?blog=3 (sorry, in Spanish)
[02:18] <ogra_> changing a old tool is as much work as a new tool :)
[02:18] <Rickyniano> ogra_: :) I see
[02:18] <ogra_> ControlAulas has other problems why we cant ship it
[02:18] <JaneW> Rickyniano: it's ok if it's in the Ubuntu page, I created that one too, and it is the main page....
[02:18] <JaneW> Rickyniano: it would help if you indicate whether it is an edubuntu topic (if it;s not explicitly clear)
[02:19] <JaneW> we discussed CDs last week.
[02:19] <ogra_> its written in gambas, we wot be able to support gambas in main, so it couldnt get on the CD
[02:19] <Rickyniano> JaneW: ok, perfect
[02:19] <JaneW> we are not going to have any kind of mass produced CDs (unfortunately)
[02:19] <rejden> i was thinkin, is there any possibility that developers will add Ad-Hoc feature in Gnome Network Connection and also durring instalation?
[02:19] <Rickyniano> ogra_: oh, I didn't know about the gambas stuff
[02:19] <JaneW> we might be able to get a few hundred printed now
[02:19] <mhz> ogra_: how about 'gemsvnc'?
[02:19] <JaneW> but it's likley to happen after the release when things settle down a bit
[02:20] <ogra_> mhz, sure, suggest it for dapper :)
[02:20] <ogra_> rejden, ??
[02:20] <mhz> .oO(no idea if it is old)
[02:20] <JaneW> but I need some clever and creative person to make a CD label design and CD cover design
[02:20] <rejden> ogra_, wifi adhoc mode
[02:20] <JaneW> we have no liveCD at this point, so we only need a slip cover for a single CD
[02:20] <ogra_> rejden, what for ? ltsp doesnt work via wifi 
[02:20] <rejden> ltsp?
[02:20] <ogra_> rejden, thats the edubuntu meeting...
[02:21] <JaneW> would anyone like to do that (NOT ogra) :P
[02:21] <rejden> oh sorry
[02:21] <rejden> forget it then
[02:21] <ogra_> JaneW, i dont think its release critical we can easily have our CD two weeks after release
[02:21] <Yagisan> ogra: well - ltsp can be done over wifi - but it need etherboot and isn't very quick
[02:21] <mhz> JaneW: what are the standards requested?
[02:21] <Rickyniano> ok, thanks everybody for all... I must go. see you!
[02:22] <ogra_> Yagisan, yes, jbailey is looking into it... but rather for dapper
[02:22] <ogra_> Rickyniano, ciao
[02:23] <mhz> JaneW: I may be able to convince one of the memeber of Tecnocimiento to do that CD thing
[02:23] <JaneW> ogra_: do you have the links to the kubuntu stuff Riddle sent yesterday? My machine was rebooted :(
[02:23] <JaneW> mhz: cool!!!
[02:23] <ogra_> JaneW, mine too :(
[02:23] <JaneW> mhz: just something simple but nice...
[02:23] <ogra_> but i guess we can ask Riddell again
[02:23] <Riddell> hmm?
[02:23] <JaneW> mhz: even just the logo and name
[02:23] <JaneW> Riddell: hi ;)
[02:23] <ogra_> the ring of children would be nice in there
[02:24] <mhz> but I would definately need to know minimum standards as 'resolution', 'formtat', 'pantone', etc.
[02:24] <ogra_> if we have a 300dpi print version from it
[02:24] <JaneW> Riddell: er can we see your CD covers again please (sorry, machine rebooted unplanned so they weren't saved)
[02:24] <JaneW> ogra_, mhz yes the children in the ring would be good.
[02:24] <JaneW> mhz: do you have an ubuntu hoary CD cover?
[02:24] <mhz> JaneW: sure, count on Chile :) for it
[02:25] <ogra_> heh
[02:25] <mhz> yes
[02:25] <mhz> LOL
[02:25] <Riddell> http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/kubuntu-cd.eps http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/kubuntu-sleeve.eps
[02:25] <JaneW> mhz: note that I know little to nothing about design and what's involved and required, so be very specific about what you need
[02:25] <Riddell> http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/Sleeve template illustrator.eps
[02:25] <Riddell> I think those are the files
[02:25] <JaneW> Riddell: many thanks
[02:26] <mhz> ok.. let me start doing it and I'll post questions
[02:26] <JaneW> mhz: look at Riddell's links for Kubunut cover examples
[02:26] <JaneW> mhz: excellent thanks
[02:26] <mhz> JaneW: how soon do you/we need the covers?
[02:26] <mhz> okidoki
[02:26] <JaneW> mhz: in the next 2 weeks?
[02:26] <JaneW> can you do that?
[02:26] <Riddell> .pdf and .ai exist as well for the first two
[02:26] <mhz> yesp
[02:26] <JaneW> the release is 2 weeks tomorrow, but we won;t have CDs yet by theb
[02:26] <JaneW> then
[02:27] <mhz> Riddell: Not Found
[02:27] <mhz> The requested URL /~jr/tmp/Sleeve/
[02:27] <JaneW> we'll probably look at printing in the 2 weeks after that. If it;s not done by 24 Oct though it won't be till after UBZ...
[02:28] <Riddell> mhz: s/ /%20/
[02:28] <ogra_> mhz, replace the spaces with %20
[02:28] <mhz> JaneW: don't worry. we'll get them
[02:28] <mhz> hihihi
[02:28] <mhz> .oO(duh!)
[02:29] <ogra_> hey, we should create mobile phone logos and ringtones .... we could get rich *g*
[02:30] <mhz> LOL!!
[02:30] <JaneW> ogra_: indeed
[02:30] <ogra_> (hmm, the less i sleep, the weirder my humor gets...)
[02:30] <JaneW> ok what else
[02:30] <JaneW> jsgotngco has produced some docs
[02:30] <mhz> docs? cooool!
[02:30] <JaneW> about edubuntu is here http://pastebin.com/376564
[02:31] <ogra_> and we found a guy who wants to help with the cookbook yesterday night (ths morning rather)
[02:31] <JaneW> release notes needs some love, but here
[02:31] <JaneW> 's the start http://www.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuReleaseNotes
[02:31] <JaneW> Here's Breezy release notes to compare with.... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyReleaseNotes
[02:32] <JaneW> the cookbook will hopefully be complete by end of Oct
[02:32] <mhz> cool, then I'll moin it :)
[02:32] <JaneW> Jerome won;t have much more time to offer us now though, as he needs to get a formal (and paying) job
[02:32] <mhz> we all do
[02:32] <JaneW> yay
[02:32] <JaneW> highvoltage: is working on the html stuff
[02:32] <mhz> at least me too
[02:33] <JaneW> we are hoping to have something to show by the end of the week
[02:33] <mhz> perfect
[02:33] <JaneW> then we need to sort out the wiki merege, although I am not sure if that is crucial right now
[02:33] <mhz> wiki merge? whta you mean?
[02:33] <mhz> what
[02:34] <ogra_> ubuntu, edubuntu and kubuntu wikis will be merged 
[02:34] <ogra_> (ubuntu and kubuntu already are)
[02:34] <Riddell> there is no kubuntu wiki
[02:34] <ogra_> oh
[02:35] <ogra_> why ? 
[02:35] <Riddell> we've always been happy using the ubuntu wiki
[02:35] <highvoltage> sorry, just got here.
[02:35] <mhz> ogra_: need help in merging?
[02:35] <ogra_> highvoltage, no worries, we assigned you all the odd tasks nobody wanted :p
[02:35] <JaneW> heh
[02:35] <ogra_> mhz, thats done by our webmasters
[02:36] <mhz> Riddell: I could work on a CSS for Kubuntu
[02:36] <Riddell> mhz: for what?
[02:36] <JaneW> mhz is chief volunteer today
[02:36] <highvoltage> ogra_: really?
[02:36] <ogra_> heh, indeed :)
[02:36] <mhz> Riddell: for a kubuntu Moin wiki
[02:36] <JaneW> highvoltage: I told them about the award winning web site you are designing
[02:37] <Riddell> mhz: as in same wiki as wiki.u.c but different headers and footers?
[02:37] <mhz> JaneW: is just that I feel I have done nothing yet for Edubuntu and I will still use it, so...
[02:38] <mhz> Riddell: afaik, when wikis get all merged, they should/will share same /data dir
[02:38] <JaneW> mhz: your have been a good cheer leader and general motivator so far, and if you get us CD label and cover designs sorted you'll be one of the main contributors, so you are doing well :)
[02:38] <mhz>  /data dir is where al pages get saved
[02:39] <JaneW> mhz: not to mention your valuable spanish translation skills :)
[02:39] <mhz> JaneW: ohhh, cool :D
[02:39] <mhz> hehehe
[02:39] <highvoltage> JaneW: please don't raise expectations to high, we were just talking about a few html pages ;)
[02:39] <mhz> thanks but still wanna take advantage of the 3 days window I get today
[02:39] <Riddell> mhz: should be just a case of using the headers and footers from kubuntu.org
[02:39] <JaneW> highvoltage: ;) no pressure...
[02:39] <mhz> highvoltage: LOL
[02:40] <mhz> Riddell: ah, no big deal then
[02:40] <highvoltage> JaneW: ok. let's win some awards.
[02:40] <ogra_> some ?? 
[02:40] <mhz> Riddell: just let me know if you need one
[02:40] <ogra_> all of them !!
[02:41] <Riddell> mhz: certainly will
[02:41] <mhz> Riddell: maybe we could use KDE icosn as well
[02:41] <mhz> icons
[02:42] <mhz> Riddell: actually, despite my feelings against not 100% libs in KDE, I still prefer that desktop over GNOME.
[02:43] <mhz> so, maybe I'll try to use Edubuntu with KDE and an alternative of XFCE4 and FLuxbox
[02:43] <mhz> highvoltage: did you know Moin 1.5 is actually using WYSIWYG editor and it rocks!?
[02:44] <mhz> hehehe
[02:44] <ogra_> heh
[02:45] <ogra_> we'll have a ubuntu-light package in dapper :)
[02:45] <magnon> no added sugar
[02:45] <mhz> highvoltage: so besides the already moin2html utils, now editing will be even simpler and so more people will be able to produce collaborative documentation
[02:45] <ogra_> magnon, nope, fat replaced with water ;)
[02:45] <mhz> ogra_: cool! ubuntu-light is definately needed
[02:45] <ogra_> yup
[02:46] <ogra_> and its no problem to install kubuntu-desktop in edubuntu
[02:46] <mhz> Kool!
[02:46] <mhz> :D
[02:46] <ogra_> pfft
[02:46] <ogra_> :)
[02:46] <mhz> and if fluxbox... Fool!
[02:46] <magnon> if kedubuntu gets widespread, I fear for the spelling skills of the future generation
[02:47] <Yagisan> ubuntu-light will be nice
[02:47] <mhz> LOL!!!
[02:47] <JaneW> ogra_: re the CDs will we just create a few x86 ones?
[02:47] <JaneW> or what?
[02:47] <mhz> magnon: KDE and Gnome communities are grwoing well here in CHile
[02:47] <ogra_> JaneW, yes
[02:47] <JaneW> ogra_: ok
[02:47] <Yagisan> magnon: Its OK - the already spell like the are l33t d00dz anyway
[02:47] <magnon> "kan I have a koke?" "yeah, sure, it's only a kouple of dollars"
[02:48] <magnon> "kool, I kan't pay anymore anyway."
[02:48] <mhz> :D
[02:48] <ogra_> JaneW, who can afford exotic HW will have a internet connection i guess
[02:48] <mhz> JaneW: how many is "few"?
[02:48] <Treenaks> ogra_: not necessarily
[02:48] <Treenaks> ogra_: what if you spent all your money on hardware..
[02:48] <magnon> ogra_: don't assume that, we have one who got donated a SPARC machine :P
[02:48] <mhz> ogra_: oh, "exotic" :)
[02:49] <magnon> you mean eKsotic
[02:49] <ogra_> Treenaks, ppc is rare anyway... and who can buy a amd64 will be able to download the iso or know someone who can do it
[02:49] <Yagisan> ogra: here amd64 is same price as i386
[02:49] <mhz> ogra_: can we tell them to contact you?
[02:49] <magnon> har har.
[02:49] <ogra_> Treenaks, dont forget we talk about schools :)
[02:49] <mhz> if I could change my box, I'd definately use AMD
[02:50] <Treenaks> ogra_: who have a fixed budget, yes :)
[02:50] <ogra_> mhz, to send me their HW ? sure :)
[02:50] <highvoltage> mhz: yes, that's quite cool.
[02:50] <magnon> mhz: Sun Fire. :)
[02:50] <magnon> only problem is Flash
[02:50] <magnon> norwegian schools have some stupid national tests that use Flash
[02:50] <ogra_> you can do wild chroot setups...
[02:50] <magnon> _can_
[02:50] <ogra_> yup
[02:50] <highvoltage> ogra_: like i do :)
[02:50] <magnon> want is another thing
[02:50] <highvoltage> brb
[02:51] <flint> good belated morning...
[02:51] <Yagisan> magnon: wild chroots are an essential part of education - you need to contrast them with tame chroots
[02:51] <JaneW> mhz: this is a disputed point, but as of yesterday I was told a few hundred...
[02:51] <magnon> ogra_: actually, the development of such things are really obligated to fit normal widespread standards... but the definition of it is as widespread as well :(
[02:52] <ogra_> yup
[02:55] <mhz> JaneW: could they be saved for Edubuntu presentations and alike?
[02:55] <JaneW> ogra_: also there's no word on having another summit yet, but I think it's best to decide this at the begining of UBZ when we have our direction talk
[02:55] <JaneW> mhz: yes that's the idea
[02:55] <JaneW> mhz: they are not for mass distro but for demos and selected promotional purposes
[02:56] <mhz> JaneW: cool, coz I have 3 presentations in October and 2 in Novemebr
[02:56] <JaneW> mhz: we don;t actually have any budget for it, but are trying to get *something*
[02:56] <ogra_> JaneW, i'd like to have it decided earlier, because we need to schedule the BOFs different then
[02:56] <JaneW> mhz: cool well if you control the packaging burning the CDs is the easy part ;)
[02:56] <mhz> what is we collected some money to produce items and Canonical distributed the items?
[02:57] <JaneW> ogra_: I am not certain we'll get that but I shall try - it's not the best time to prod though...
[02:57] <mhz> what is
[02:57] <ogra_> yup
[02:57] <flint> sounds like we may need a sponsor...
[02:57] <JaneW> mhz: well we have been told distribution and logisitics are our own problem as a community
[02:58] <JaneW> edubuntu needs to support itself as a community effort
[02:58] <JaneW> and prove itself as such
[02:59] <flint> give away the razors and pay for the barber is a good model.
[02:59] <mhz> JaneW: I was thinking that in order to be self-supported, at least waht Tecnocimiento will do as a group of volunteers for IT on Education, is that we'll destinate a % of our profits per sales.
[03:00] <mhz> I mean, a potential business model is that after an institution pays us for RecicLab (in our case), we give a % of the money to the edubuntu community
[03:01] <mhz> if we al did that we may end up getting a workable fund
[03:02] <magnon> mhz: I'm all up for that
[03:02] <mhz> good
[03:02] <flint> I have Elkner on the phone now, as he is live testing Edubuntu and has a problem could we discuss his current issues?
[03:02] <mhz> shoot
[03:02] <flint> He has sent an email that I may quote from liberally to this group.
[03:03] <mhz> .oO(shoot but I doubt I will be of any help :D )
[03:03] <flint> We found an important bug in Edubuntu and wished to report it (more on the bug in a seprate email).  Writesh Maulik, a bright and motivated student, wanted to report the bug.  I encouraged him to do this, and told him to create a Launchpad
[03:03] <flint> account for himself.  He did:
[03:03] <flint> Email/Login: writesh@comcast.net
[03:03] <flint> User Name: Wrivu 
[03:03] <flint> He tried to report the bug on Launchpad using malone, but could not.  We went on to #edubuntu and were told that core Ubuntu bugs need to be reported on bugzilla, not malone.  The bell rang and Writesh had to leave.  Today he tried to log
[03:03] <flint> into bugzilla using his Launchpad account but could not.  The bug remains unreported. 
[03:03] <flint> Elkner goes on...
[03:03] <flint> A school environment is a pressure cooker.  Bells ring and people have to drop what they are doing and move on to something else.  Disruptions are the norm and it is all but impossible to maintain a sustained focus on anything for more
[03:03] <flint> than about 20 minutes.
[03:04] <flint> The crux of Elkers comments regard the bug reporting system....  see below:
[03:04] <flint> He tried to report the bug on Launchpad using malone, but could not.  We went on to #edubuntu and were told that core Ubuntu bugs need to be reported on bugzilla, not malone.  The bell rang and Writesh had to leave.  Today he tried to log
[03:04] <flint> into bugzilla using his Launchpad account but could not.  The bug remains unreported.  I could encourage him to create an account on bugzilla, but the current process is broken and it is more important to fix the process.  Most folks (including me) don't know whether a particular package is part of core or universe.  Having multiple logins and passwords to remember drastically increases the chances of not login failures.  And the
[03:04] <flint>  whole process just takes too long.  If we want to grow the user community and increase involvement, we need a better process. 
[03:04] <mhz> flint: how about off line bug registration?
[03:05] <mhz> so students can then submit later
[03:05] <ogra_> flint, please dont report bugs for main in launchpad
[03:05] <ogra_> i told jelkner that yestrday
[03:05] <ogra_> they wont be seen or solved
[03:06] <JaneW> :)
[03:06] <flint> ollie, I am just relaying this.  But admit that this dual bug reporting path is a mess.
[03:06] <JaneW> I think we would get more support from Canonical if they saw us as profitable (in anyway) rather than just a big cost
[03:06] <JaneW> and any profit implies comercial interest too, so +++
[03:06] <JaneW> the more ppl want what we've got the more chance we'll have of making it better
[03:06] <ogra_> flint, *all* edubuntu bugs need to be repotred in bugzilla...
[03:06] <magnon> JaneW: it's a pretty big chance that stuff we make for Edubuntu would be viable for SMBs or ltsp setups
[03:06] <magnon> like, TeachersPet in a modified way would be a good admin tool
[03:07] <Yagisan> magnon: that's why I'm here
[03:07] <ogra_> yup
[03:07] <magnon> whenever TP comes around :)
[03:07] <magnon> it might not be too dumb to design it for general use and extend it for edu
[03:07] <Yagisan> I'm not a school interest - I'm business.
[03:07] <magnon> Yagisan: Me too. :)
[03:07] <JaneW> flint: bug must be reported in bugzilla
[03:07] <JaneW> everybody else manages to do that
[03:08] <flint> so I guess the question becomes one of bug reporting consolidation or I&A consolidation for bug reporting.
[03:08] <JaneW> flint: and ogra_ gave jeff the opportunity to mail the bug details to him, if they couldn;t report it in bugzilla themsleves for whatever reason
[03:08] <ogra_> flint, we have no influence on that at all
[03:09] <flint> we are talking about getting 12-14 year olds the ability to report bugs.  
[03:09] <ogra_> flint, i cant change it
[03:09] <JaneW> Malone is new and isn't completely opperational (is only used for a sub set of stuff)
[03:09] <mhz> JaneW: from Chile, Tecnocimiento is working on presenting the idea of a LatinamericanFreeTechnologyInstitute, where all different institutions teach the same curriculum with same standards, we all develop solutions together, as a community and it is up to EACH institution to generate profits for what they do with our collaboration. However, in the end the community Institute gets a % from profits, so we all can enjoy merchandising and stuff
[03:09] <JaneW> the main bug repositiry is bugzilla
[03:09] <flint> if they need multiple logons for different (and not differentiated) bugs, this is a problem.
[03:09] <mhz> JaneW: however, this is off the record yet, please.
[03:09] <JaneW> mhz: sounds very interesting...
[03:09] <ogra_> flint, yes, but again, nobody of us cna change that...
[03:10] <JaneW> mhz: never heard a word ;)
[03:10] <mhz> cool
[03:10] <mhz> thx
[03:10] <ogra_> flint, its very likely that launchad will be used for all bugs in dapper
[03:10] <flint> mhz This is enough to make me learn more Spanish... very cool.
[03:10] <ogra_> but currently launchpad is in a testphase that only involves universe bugs
[03:11] <JaneW> flint: what is the process issue? report the bug in bugzilla. If you can't/ won't/ don't want to mail ogra with details.... where's the issue?
[03:12] <JaneW> flint: and bugzilla's account and password mechanisms are completely out of our control
[03:12] <mhz> flint: ogra_ what is BUGS were reported via Moin?
[03:12] <flint> this is way too confusing universe bugs go one place and breezy bugs go another.  It is almost as if the edubuntu project needs a bug proxy.
[03:12] <mhz> in Moin community, we all report bugs via Moin editing
[03:12] <ogra_> mhz, bugs need to be reported in the bugtracker we use... which is bugzilla for all shipped apps and malone for universe bugs currently
[03:12] <flint> via moin?  one point for bug reporting?  EXCELLENT!! could that work?
[03:13] <ogra_> flint, everything we ship in edubuntu is in main...
[03:13] <JaneW> sigh
[03:13] <ogra_> and we dont have/use a wiki for bugs
[03:13] <mhz> and this way, edubuntu developers will "filter" bugs BEFORE submitting them to bugzilla
[03:13] <JaneW> I have to go, I put the main pints in the summary
[03:13] <ogra_> mhz, we dont *have/use* anything else than bugzilla
[03:14] <flint> jane I am not trying to be dense here, I am just getting reports from the battle front.  Elkner calls me between classes an whines....
[03:14] <mhz> JaneW: thankz
[03:14] <ogra_> flint, make him mail me the bugs if he is not capable of using bugzilla for them, no problem...
[03:14] <ogra_> brb
[03:15] <flint> I use the bugzilla point for reporting bugs, and have never used malone.
[03:15] <JaneW> flint: nod, understood, but he seems to not want to listen
[03:15] <flint> ...those damn customers... :^)
[03:15] <mhz> ogra_: I understand the point, however, IF we want 12-14 year olds to be happy using our stuff, and they have little time to report bugs, why not giving the chance to filter bugs using an alternative via such as Moin? Then you, me or anyone else who has no problem with bugzilla official tool, submit the bug
[03:16] <flint> I will do as you suggest ollie.  I really like the moin idea and will relay it to Elkner.
[03:16] <mhz> at least, until "official trainig" is set
[03:17] <Yagisan> I'd like reportbug integrated into bugzilla
[03:17] <Yagisan> then they could spend 30 seconds on it
[03:18] <mhz> ogra_: flint we could have a EdubuntuWikiBugReportTemplate that after developers read it, they change the CategoryPreBug to CategoryBugSubmittede or CategoryNotBug
[03:18] <ogra_> mhz, we'll have malone soon, no wiki can replace that
[03:18] <mhz> I agree
[03:18] <ogra_> mhz, it simply wont be accepted, no point to discuss it
[03:18] <flint> mhz I missed the part about "official training"... could we use this as a profit center
[03:18] <mhz> just talking about the "testing period"
[03:19] <ogra_> mhz, but if youre after it, you can attend the next technical board meeting and put it on the TechnicalBoardAgenda
[03:19] <flint> If Elkner was not whinning into my ear on the phone I would not even know of this as an issue.  
[03:20] <mhz> flint: why not? but the idea is to always give users 2 chances. If you like to read and do all by yourself. go ahead. If you are a regular user who never reads manuals and stuff, you can pay for someone to help you :D
[03:21] <flint> mhz I do not get it.  are the two chances bugzilla and malone?
[03:22] <mhz> ogra_: is not that I am after it... no Moin template will be better than a tool esp. designed for a task. It was just that if someone had the intention to use the tool and was not successfull, we could still provide a way out
[03:22] <flint> mhz: by the way how do you shortcut my name to the front of your post in Xchat?
[03:22] <flint> Ollie, I am not happy being a bearer of critical tidings...
[03:23] <mhz> i just type the first 2 letters and Xhcat autocomplete your name match
[03:23] <flint> mhz, that works...thanks!
[03:23] <mhz> np
[03:24] <mhz> flint: I had never thought of edubuntu bugs yet. Malone is as new to me as bugzilla for edubuntu stuff
[03:24] <ogra_> ok, i have to go back to my screensaver hacking, else i'll never be able to go on with edubuntu...
[03:25] <mhz> ogra_: thanks for everything
[03:25] <ogra_> thanks for attending :)
[03:25] <mhz> thanks for thanking me :D
[03:25] <ogra_> hopefully edubuntu can go on tomorrow
[03:25] <mhz> cool
[03:26] <mhz> uh, did I mention that no matter how many bugs people find, you still did a good job
[03:26] <mhz> ?
[03:26] <flint> ogra_ and mhz, this bug thing just got thrown in my lap.  Elkner sent his letter to about this bug reporting issue to everyone (including the SABDFL)
[03:26] <mhz> and it's now that we all start helping
[03:26] <mhz> flint: hmmm.
[03:27] <flint> I would close echoing the sentement that edubuntu is an excellent hack!
[03:27] <mhz> any chances you could reproduce the bug in one of your boxes
[03:27] <mhz> ?
[03:28] <mhz> or any chances you could train your friend to report bugs using the tool ogra_ mentioned so your friend can train students to do exactly the same.
[03:28] <mhz> ?
[03:29] <flint> ogra_, Thanks for being here.  Next week I will report on how this bug-bug is evolving.  I maybe agree with mhz that this is a training issue as much as anything.
[03:29] <Yagisan> reading the logs - it seems they are reluctant to use bugzilla
[03:30] <flint> mhz,  I see an opportunity in training...this may be the ticket.  Thanks for mentioning it.  
[03:31] <flint> Yagisan,  the deal seems to be that they have to use bugzilla for some bugs and malone for others.
[03:31] <flint> ...or at least that is what I am being told. :^)
[03:32] <flint> and there is the dichotomy between help and bugs.  this may be Elkner's real problem, he loves to be the early adopter.
[03:33] <Yagisan> flint: I read the logs /|\ up there. It clearly said use bugzilla.
[03:33] <mhz> Yagisan: and if we talk about an institution, in the meantime, while no official bug reporting system is 100% operationl, I propose that that institution could have a MoinBugTemplate admined by its administrator or an external person, so this person is in charge of filtering bugs and reporting to the corresponding tool.
[03:33] <Yagisan> flint: but it would help if there was an automated tool for the kids
[03:34] <Yagisan> mhz: bugzilla works. I've reported bugs there
[03:34] <mhz> but AFAIK, I used to use an off-line bug reporting tool while I had no internet at home.
[03:34] <Yagisan> edubuntu IS all main
[03:34] <flint> Yagisan, If bugzilla is it, then the problem is solved.  I have also reported bugs to bugzilla.
[03:35] <Yagisan> and main == bugzilla
[03:35] <mhz> me too
[03:35] <mhz> hence I assume it is HowtoDoit properly issue
[03:35] <Yagisan> mhz: correct
[03:35] <flint> I am going to slap Elkner around and tell him to report all to bugzilla.
[03:35] <mhz> LOL
[03:36] <tseng> im not sure he'd enjoy that
[03:36] <mhz> flint: OR.. you could have them pay you for receiving mail reporting bus and you submit them :D
[03:36] <flint> In elkner's defense, You can always tell the pioneer, he is the one with the arrow in his back... :^)
[03:36] <mhz> and later you donate a % of your income to the Edubuntu proect so we can have T-Shirts
[03:36] <Yagisan> flint: but he's just a bit too eairly
[03:36] <mhz> :)
[03:37] <mhz> Yagisan: yes, it is not even edubuntu dawn yet
[03:37] <flint> Yagisan,  for all the disrespecting I do to Elkner, he is a resource of infinite value.  A teacher who will put your product into a production environment.
[03:37] <mhz> yes!
[03:38] <mhz> Elkner rock!
[03:38] <Yagisan> flint: I know - but when you are on the bleeding edge - you get cut
[03:38] <mhz> but please train him to use bugzilla properly
[03:38] <flint> mhz,  I cannot stress to you how much courage (and stupid optimism) it takes to do this live testing.
[03:38] <mhz> LOL
[03:38] <Yagisan> flint: it would be nice if he is around long enought to heat the reply!
[03:39] <mhz> I know, I've been there
[03:39] <Yagisan> s/heat/hear
[03:39] <flint> mhz, ok, I will work him like a red-haired stepchild. we can get throught this bug issue.
[03:40] <Yagisan> so - what was the bug he wanted to report ?
[03:40] <mhz> flint: however, I do admit that one thing is being pioneer and other is have 12 year olds testing something is unstable yet
[03:40] <Yagisan> that's what I'm curious about
[03:40] <mhz> esp. if they are not trained to bug reporting
[03:41] <flint> ogra_, I am out of here in order to get back to a deadline, and to respond to Elkners email.  mhz Elkner is a trip, no doubt about that.  
[03:41] <flint> thanks for all be on time next week.
[03:41] <mhz> sorry what??
[03:41] <ogra_> flint, i just replied :)
[03:41] <flint> thanks ollie!
[03:41] <mhz> flint: re-post your last message to me please
[03:42] <flint> ogra_, so did sabdfl
[03:42] <flint> ...god that Elkner is a suckup!
[03:43] <flint> :^)
[03:43] <magnon> somehow "god that Elkner is good with ketchup" flashed by
[03:43] <flint> mhz, which caustic invective did you want to see...
[03:44] <mhz> just thenone after I mentioned i left for edubutnu channel
[03:44] <flint> magnon, ketchup, that is brilliant! :^)
[03:44] <flint> mhz, here is is: ogra_, I am out of here in order to get back to a deadline, and to respond to Elkners email.  mhz Elkner is a trip, no doubt about that. 
[03:45] <flint> mhz, that was before sabdfl started responding to Elkner's email unalaterally...
[03:46] <flint> markuman, ...I mean that in the nicest way, Mark :^)
[03:46] <markuman> flint?
[03:47] <mhz> flint: okidoki.. now I get back to #edubuntu
[03:47] <mhz> bye guys
[03:47] <flint> markuman,  ....yes sir?
[03:48] <flint> markuman,  I have always had trouble with authority figures...You think getting to be an old man would fix this...
[03:48] <markuman> >>>(15:47:27) flint: markuman, ...I mean that in the nicest way, Mark :^) <<< what do you mean?
[03:49] <ogra_> flint, markuman != sabdfl
[03:49] <flint> this was in response to a previous posting "mhz, that was before sabdfl started responding to Elkner's email unalaterally..."
[03:50] <flint> ogra_, I know that, but thanks for the info
[03:50] <ogra_> heh... sorry then
[03:52] <flint> Mark, elkner is actually in a classroom with teenage thugs and drug pushers, using edubuntu.  He writes you and calls me up whinning about the multi path bug reporting system.  Ollie fixes the problem.  I think we should ge on with how to make this project self sustaining...
[03:53] <flint> ok, the kids are the North Arlington, Virginia cream of the DC intellectual crop... :^)  but they act like thugs when Elkner gets them.
[03:54] <tseng> we met one of his students, we dont believe you
[03:54] <flint> Mark and Ollie, Elkner would not go to this extreme if he did not feel desperate.  The question is was his desperation a issue of the moment, or is there some good design data buried in his message?
[03:56] <flint> tseng,Collin Applegate is a very cool fellow, no doubt I will need to modify the thugs and drug pushers statement...
[03:58] <flint> trying to use technology in a classroom is like trying to juggle flaming chainsaws.  Keep in mind that I just had a run in trying to get the lotr login fixed for the release, I failed in this mission.  No good deed goes unpunished here Mark.
[04:00] <flint> Thankfully I have great training in the DC Bureaucracy, so I am toughened.  The issue we all face is how to hang in there and try to do good things.  Does that help explain what I mean Mark?
[04:05] <flint> BTW Mark, the next time I visit London I would like to introduce you to a friend of mine named John Buckman, a very canny software business developer.  I am standing by for a reply.
[04:07] <ogra_> flint, whom are you talking to ? 
[04:07] <ogra_> sabdfl is not here ... 
[04:11] <flint> ogra_,  Elkner calls back and is asking for linkage between malone and bugzilla.  Thanks for the information about sabdfl
[04:11] <flint> ogra_, login linkage only...
[04:11] <ogra_> i think there is none...
[04:11] <ogra_> he needs to create an bugzilla account
[04:12] <ogra_> s/an/a
[04:12] <flint> ogra_,  he will carbon you.  God I seem to be good at stirring the pot, unintentionally...
[04:12] <ogra_> flint, you can easily check who is here in the sidebar that lists the currently availabe people for the room
[04:13] <flint> I need to get back to deadlineville. ya, I did not look at the sidebar, a cockpit error on my part.
[04:13] <ogra_> dont worry  :)
[04:13] <\sh> wow...edubuntu party and nobody informed me
[04:13] <flint> ollie, thanks for your continued patient help.  It sucks being a clueless old guy 
[04:14] <ogra_> flint, we'll teach you, beware ;)
[04:14] <ogra_> \sh, every wedneday at this time ;)
[04:14] <flint> I gotta go, this old stuff could happen to you as well!  Thanks again.  I'm gone.