[12:06] <hyperactivecrond> btw that was 4 the thing while i'm away
[02:28] <magnon> yawn.
[02:28] <magnon> ogra_: I hope you're sleeping :)
[07:14] <shaga> gnome-applets and gnome-volume-manager seems to have been updated
[07:14] <shaga> I hope they don't crash anymore if I xkill gnome trays
[07:20] <shaga> by the way, why don't gaim appear into gnome system tray after killing trays?
[07:33] <shaga> yappers, no more gnome-applets crashing
[08:06] <jsgotangco> ogra_, when you have time, can you svn co to https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/breezy/edubuntu/
[08:06] <jsgotangco> ogra_, you'll be able to pull the source documents from there
[08:06] <jsgotangco> at the moment, About Edubuntu is already done and im fixing the release notes later
[08:07] <jsgotangco> i've made sure the entities are fixed so you won't need to pinpoint which goes which and just copy per forlder
[08:07] <jsgotangco> and the scrollkeeper omf file is already updated
[08:38] <jsgotangco> hi JaneW 
[08:38] <JaneW> hi jsgotangco 
[08:45] <JaneW> highvoltage: ping
[08:46] <JaneW> highvoltage: I am at my desk today, so let me know when you want to do the webpage 'meeting'
[08:46] <jsgotangco> webpage?
[08:56] <JaneW> yes
[09:07] <jsgotangco> JaneW, why are we merging wikis?
[09:09] <JaneW> because we have to, and because a lot of the ubuntu wiki applies to edubuntu as well
[09:13] <jsgotangco> if find it a jungle really
[09:13] <jsgotangco> JaneW, do you cross stitch?
[09:13] <jsgotangco> hehhee
[09:23] <JaneW> jsgotangco: arrgh NO
[09:23] <jsgotangco> hehhe
[09:23] <jsgotangco> i was about to ask you to try out kxstitch
[09:23] <jsgotangco> hehehe
[09:24] <JaneW> jsgotangco: I can knit, crotchet and cross stich, but find all incredibly boring
[09:24] <jsgotangco> a friend of main maintains it for debian
[09:24] <jsgotangco> cross stitch our logo
[09:24] <jsgotangco> hehe
[09:24] <JaneW> I like quick results so if anything I use a sewing machine to whip something together quickly
[09:24] <JaneW> I have a friend who is obsessed with cross stiching, I could get her to do it.... ;)
[09:25] <JaneW> I am unconventional I would rather change a light bulb or solder something, than knit or sew ;)
[09:25] <JaneW> in fact my hubby is more likely to sew, while I change a plug :)
[09:25] <jsgotangco> *grin*
[09:26] <JaneW> he made our outfits for a costume party last year....
[09:30] <highvoltage> JaneW: 11:30'ish okay for you?
[09:30] <jsgotangco> ouch you just reminded me to fix my daughter's costume for her school play in a few days
[09:30] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: you're a guy, right?
[09:30] <jsgotangco> i am
[09:31] <jsgotangco> i don't cross stitch
[09:31] <jsgotangco> that's why i asked JaneW
[09:31] <highvoltage> impressive. i can't do any stitching... 
[09:31] <highvoltage> JaneW doesn't look the stitching type :)
[09:34] <JaneW> highvoltage: I totally agree :)
[10:13] <JaneW> highvoltage: can I come and get my eagle? ;)
[10:13] <JaneW> which landed yesterday ...
[10:40] <jsgotangco> JaneW, what email is this regarding  "About Ubuntu"?
[10:41] <JaneW> mark wants it more professional
[10:41] <jsgotangco> what part is this? the one that opens in Yelp?
[10:41] <jsgotangco> System -> About Ubuntu?
[10:42] <JaneW> yes
[10:42] <jsgotangco> you have one blocker on this
[10:42] <jsgotangco> YELP
[10:43] <jsgotangco> (unless he wants it to look like System-> About Gnome)
[10:47] <jsgotangco> JaneW, so its going to look the same for Edubuntu
[11:19] <shaga> "### END DEBIAN AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST"
[11:20] <shaga> that reads at the end of the /boot/grub/menu.list
[11:32] <highvoltage> sorry JaneW only seeing your eagle message now :)
[11:32] <JaneW> highvoltage: it's ok it flew over here straight away
[11:33] <JaneW> highvoltage: thanks - I see it's full of cool stuff :)
[11:33] <JaneW> jsgotangco: is there anyway to improve the 'about' pages? I am not even usre I understand what is wrong with them...
[11:35] <jsgotangco> improve aesthetically?
[11:35] <JaneW> jsgotangco: here's what mdz said "The text should be condensed and clarified to the essentials.  The page
[11:35] <JaneW> layout should more closely follow the theme of the Ubuntu website and be
[11:35] <JaneW> clean and readable."
[11:36] <jsgotangco> JaneW, i don't know what they want exactly, sabdfl himself edited that page
[11:36] <shaga> and it's automagic
[11:36] <shaga> in that /boot/grub/menu.list
[11:36] <shaga> hehe
[11:36] <jsgotangco> JaneW, it's mark's work mostly
[11:37] <jsgotangco> (last minute edits he made)
[11:37] <JaneW> yes I see sabdfl editted, ok them let's not mess with the text, just layout and formatting
[11:37] <jsgotangco> JaneW, the only way to make that page beatiful is change it to html
[11:37] <JaneW> is that possible?
[11:38] <jsgotangco> which contradicts the current workflow with the translations
[11:38] <shaga> should there read ubuntu and automatic at the end of /boot/grub/menu.list? or is there need for those :p
[11:38] <jsgotangco> JaneW, in a nutshell, we planned to do everything in html but in the last minute reverted back to xml because it borks translations
[11:38] <jsgotangco> and now it seems html is being desired again
[11:39] <jsgotangco> so i don't know what that makes us
[11:39] <jsgotangco> in documentation
[11:40] <jsgotangco> its bad enough that we had to revert back to xml a day after documentation string freeze
[11:40] <jsgotangco> if there is a desire to "condense" the document, that would undermine the work being done by the translators, most of them finished already
[11:41] <jsgotangco> if sabdfl or mdz is online i could easily explain the dilemna
[11:44] <jsgotangco> now to make it beautiful in Yelp with the current doc format, that's impossible
[11:44] <jsgotangco> yelp has its own stylesheets and changing it would bork the other documents
[11:49] <jsgotangco> JaneW, ?
[11:52] <JaneW> phone.. 5 mins please
[11:55] <ogra_> shaga, there is a need for those and it would require heavy patching in grub to make it respect another text
[11:57] <ogra_> (explanation is in the menu.list file)
[11:58] <JessicaX^> Hello
[11:58] <ogra_> hi JessicaX^ 
[11:58] <JessicaX^> Your name has changed again
[11:58] <JessicaX^> :/
[11:58] <ogra_> not since yesterday morning when my xchat crashed :)
[11:59] <ogra> but since you mention it :)
[11:59] <JessicaX^> :P
[12:03] <shaga> ogra: okay, just thought about it..
[12:04] <JaneW> jsgotangco: back
[12:04] <JaneW> sabdfl is on line, was chatting to him earlier
[12:04] <JaneW> hmmm, he has been idel for some time though
[12:05] <JessicaX^> AHH
[12:05] <JessicaX^> there it is
[12:05] <JessicaX^> "Language, learning and color perception"
[12:11] <JessicaX^> AH there we are
[12:14] <jsgotangco> JaneW, so there's that's the dilemna
[12:14] <JessicaX^> "Humans were also found to
[12:14] <JessicaX^> turn inward in monotone environments, which may induce feelings of anxiety, fear and distress
[12:14] <JessicaX^> resulting from understimulation. This lack of stimulation further creates a sense of restlessness,
[12:14] <JessicaX^> excessive emotional response, difficulty in concentration and irritation."
[12:15] <JaneW> hmmm
[12:15] <JessicaX^> That was after a paragraph on why not to have brown colors around children in a learning environment
[12:16] <JessicaX^> Mahnke, Frank H. and Mahnke, Rudolf H.. Color, Environment and Human Response. John Wiley & Sons,
[12:16] <JessicaX^> Inc, New York, 1996.
[12:16] <ogra> JessicaX^, which brown colors ? 
[12:16] <JessicaX^> They said 4 shades of brown were all found to have a negative effect with children under the age of 10
[12:16] <JessicaX^> They didnt say though
[12:16] <JessicaX^> It was a reference from another book, so
[12:17] <ogra> but what are *you* referring to ? 
[12:17] <jsgotangco> brown is bad?
[12:17] <JessicaX^> o.O?
[12:18] <JessicaX^> Nothing, i just remember before someone saying color doesnt matter
[12:19] <jsgotangco> JaneW, feel free to reply on the list on the matter i'm going to do some groceries first
[12:19] <JaneW> jsgotangco: I am not sure why I am being tasked with this, and to me it looks fine anyway... :/
[12:20] <jsgotangco> JaneW, oh well
[12:20] <JessicaX^> Is there screenshots of edubuntu :/
[12:21] <JessicaX^> Lessee
[12:21] <JessicaX^> Yep, pretty darn similar to ubuntu
[12:21] <JessicaX^> -_-
[12:21] <jsgotangco> JessicaX^, because its the same
[12:21] <shaga> plus some new artwork if we talk about the look
[12:21] <JessicaX^> Oh my word
[12:21] <shaga> more colors :p
[12:22] <JessicaX^> Rofl
[12:22] <JessicaX^> BROWN
[12:23] <ogra> JessicaX^, please install edubuntu and make your judgement... i'll happily discuss every constructive statement 
[12:23] <JessicaX^> No you wouldnt :P
[12:24] <ogra> how do you know that ?
[12:24] <JessicaX^> Because why would me installing it AGAIN do anything
[12:24] <ogra> you didnt make any constructive statement yet
[12:24] <JessicaX^> That's what you say, because you're not actually bothered what other people are saying
[12:25] <ogra> ah, so you installed it already .... then you know there is no brown in edubuntu ???
[12:25] <JessicaX^> I suggested something the first moment i came in here before, and you and your team dismissed it because, with no experience of it, you know best
[12:25] <ogra> so wh the heck do you rant about it ? 
[12:25] <JaneW> JessicaX^: what are you actually here for?
[12:25] <JessicaX^> Idling
[12:26] <JessicaX^> I gave up trying to help
[12:26] <JaneW> JessicaX^: this is a DEV channel and we have 2 weeks until our release date, so what we are putting in this release is set, and we are busy
[12:26] <JessicaX^> Yeah, yeah
[12:26] <ogra> JessicaX^, this is not *my* team ... and obvoiusly the people in here agreed
[12:26] <JessicaX^> http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=434&slide=4 <---
[12:26] <JaneW> JessicaX^: constructive suggestions and critisisms are more than welcome and will be considered for the next release
[12:26] <JessicaX^> That's just something you probably copied and pasted
[12:27] <JaneW> what?
[12:27] <JessicaX^> That statement
[12:27] <JaneW> that's someting I just typed
[12:27] <JessicaX^> Listen, i'm just going to draw a line
[12:27] <JessicaX^> You do what you do, it's right
[12:27] <JessicaX^> I'll just not say anything :)
[12:27] <shaga> http://sha.rikos.org/edubuntu.png
[12:28] <shaga> not so brown for me at least
[12:28] <JaneW> if you have a useful suggestion please list it on: http://www.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuBelowZero and we can discuss it at our next developer summir where the dapper release goals will be discussed (in Oct/Nov)
[12:28] <JessicaX^> Nah
[12:28] <JaneW> s/summir/summit
[12:29] <JessicaX^> It's not my project to say anything on
[12:29] <JaneW> well then please stop being disruptive
[12:29] <JessicaX^> :P
[12:29] <JaneW> as it is we are short of resources and time
[12:30] <JessicaX^> Then why are you chatting
[12:30] <JessicaX^> If i need to do work, i stay off IRC
[12:30] <JessicaX^> ;;-)
[12:30] <ogra> JessicaX^, simply because this channel is our workplace
[12:30] <JessicaX^> Huh
[12:31] <JessicaX^> This channel is a chat channel
[12:31] <ogra> nope
[12:31] <JessicaX^> Yes it is
[12:31] <JessicaX^> IR--->C<----
[12:31] <ogra> this channel is the development channel for edubuntu
[12:31] <ogra> the place where we coordinate our wokr
[12:31] <ogra> work
[12:32] <JessicaX^> Uh-huh
[12:40] <JaneW> ogra: have the screenshots changed from these on OSDir?
[12:40] <JaneW> ogra: specifically the boot image (is that what it's called?) etc
[12:40] <ogra> the usplash should be new...
[12:40] <JaneW> yes ok
[12:41] <ogra> but i handnt time for a test install yet and jbailey broke the edubuntu-artwork package
[12:41] <JaneW> ogra: I have to agree that that is not the best wallpaper (can it be changed, without adding to the size?)
[12:41] <JaneW> hrm
[12:41] <ogra> fabbione fixed it an hour ago...
[12:42] <JaneW> what happened to gartoon?
[12:42] <ogra> sure, select another one, i'll replace them
[12:42] <ogra> err, to gartoon ? nothing... afaik
[12:43] <ogra> JaneW, why ? 
[12:43] <JaneW> oh it is there
[12:43] <ogra> :)
[12:43] <JaneW> did you change the font? I still think it needs to be bigger and possibly more 'fun'
[12:44] <ogra> the esktop font is a comic font with 16px 
[12:44] <ogra> *desktop
[12:44] <JaneW> :)
[12:44] <JaneW> sounds great
[12:44] <JaneW> thanks
[12:45] <ogra> i fear if we change the app font it gets hardly readable... i thought about it
[12:46] <JaneW> ok lets not mess with the apps
[12:46] <JaneW> just the menus etc
[12:46] <JaneW> is the wallpaper changable?
[12:47] <ogra> menus == apps (fontwise)
[12:47] <ogra> yes
[12:47] <ogra> just pick one we should ship, i'll exchange it in the package
[12:47] <JaneW> I don;t have a problem with the wallpaper design, but the colour is the exact colour of baby pooh ;)
[12:47] <ogra> its bright yellow... the screenshots dont really show the right color... 
[12:48] <ogra> just tell me which you want
[12:48] <JaneW> so we could use the same idea but alter the shades and tones it would look good then...
[12:48] <JaneW> (I am not knocking your wallpaper - just that I don;t think this colour has much appeal for under 16s)
[12:48] <ogra> i dont care for the wallpaper... it took me 10min to create ;) 
[12:49] <ogra> there is no manpower lost if we change it...
[12:49] <JaneW> well everyone loves 'edubuntu girl' is that too big?
[12:50] <ogra> i'll have to look if we can get it in a widescreen format... there is only a normal version
[12:50] <ogra> the filesize should be similar to the current one
[12:51] <JaneW> I can ask Steve to modify if neccesary
[12:51] <JaneW> else http://art.ubuntu.com/images/backgrounds/Edubuntu-Waves_1024x768.png
[12:51] <JaneW> or http://art.ubuntu.com/images/backgrounds/Edubuntu-MexicoStreet_1024x768.jpg
[12:52] <JaneW> let me know what dimensions and res you want
[12:52] <JaneW> I'll get the creators to alter
[12:52] <JessicaX^> Err. that second image looks wierd
[12:52] <ogra> i'd like that one without the odd bars on top and bottom: http://art.ubuntu.com/images/backgrounds/Edubuntu-Breezy_3_1600x1200.png
[12:52] <JessicaX^> the first is nice - Second is strange
[12:53] <JessicaX^> I thought it was stucco, but it's pavement.. It looks really strange
[12:53] <JessicaX^> Maybe if it was a long road, like a highway
[12:53] <JessicaX^> But you can see all the chewing gun stuck on the pavement
[12:53] <ogra> JaneW, they are all to small :/
[12:53] <JaneW> JessicaX^: can you go to http://art.ubuntu.com/backgrounds/edubuntu/?page=2&sort_by=add_timestamp&thumbnails_per_page=12&view=list&resolution=%&order=DESC , vote for the backgrounds there, the most popular ones will end up being used most likely
[12:54] <JessicaX^> Nah
[12:54] <ogra> JaneW, we need at least 1600x1200
[12:54] <JessicaX^> you do what you like, i'm just saying, the second one doesnt look good
[12:54] <ogra> they look weird if you hae to scale them up
[12:55] <JaneW> ogra: ok
[12:55] <JessicaX^> Edubuntu-splash = yes
[12:55] <ogra> JaneW, can you ask the ubuntu girl guy if we could get a bigger version ? 
[12:55] <shaga> edubuntu-girl rocks :D
[12:55] <JaneW> ogra: sure
[12:55] <ogra> s/ubuntu/edubuntu
[12:55] <shaga> 1600x1200 or 1920x1440
[12:55] <JaneW> ok I'll mail Steve now
[12:56] <JessicaX^> ugh, no it doesnt :P
[12:56] <JessicaX^> edubuntu girl looks bad :/
[12:56] <ogra> 1600x1200 and 1600x1000 are the default sizes we need
[12:56] <JessicaX^> I'd say the only real 2 are - Splash, and Elephants
[12:56] <ogra> and regarding the responses that the one we should use... everyone on the mailing list semms to love it
[12:57] <ogra> s/that/thats
[12:57] <JaneW> ogra: nod
[12:57] <JessicaX^> although, the elephants idea is good, the logo looks bad on the actual wallpaper itself
[12:57] <JessicaX^> And you can't be sure if that pic isn't liscenced elsewhere
[12:58] <JaneW> JessicaX^: actually yes we can be sure
[12:58] <JessicaX^> Ugh
[12:58] <JessicaX^> I'm afraid the only good one is splash
[12:58] <JessicaX^> The breezy ones just look strange
[12:59] <ogra> JessicaX^, i think thats very subjective
[12:59] <JessicaX^> Huh
[12:59] <ogra> we'll go with the masses and there was a lot agreement for edubuntu girl in the ML discussion
[01:00] <ogra> JaneW, but there is no need to hurry... artwork changes can go in until last minute :)
[01:00] <JessicaX^> there you go
[01:03] <JaneW> I mailed Steve
[01:03] <ogra> great :)
[01:03] <shaga> breezy3-wallpaper just rocks
[01:03] <shaga> done voting
[01:03] <JaneW> shaga: great thanks
[01:03] <ogra> i like it too...
[01:04] <shaga> :)
[01:04] <ogra> but i dont like the bars on top/bottom
[01:04] <JaneW> a lot of Steve's stuff is pretty bright and busy, but it appeals to young children, and that's the idea
[01:04] <ogra> yup
[01:04] <JessicaX^> Wow
[01:06] <JaneW> ogra: it is giving you hassles?
[01:06] <ogra> JaneW, its done... but there are some cosmetical things i dont find the reason for... and the code is undocumented...
[01:07] <ogra> jwz (xscreensaver author) is the worst coder ever...
[01:07] <Yagisan> ogra: and of course you've been documenting it right ?
[01:07] <ogra> thats why nobody touches xscreensaver :)
[01:07] <ogra> Yagisan, only my patch/changes...
[01:07] <ogra> i wont clean up his mess... regarding that we'll drop xscreensaver xompletely next release
[01:08] <Yagisan> ogra: so you are now the only person other then jwz that undersrtands xss then
[01:08] <ogra> hehe, yes...
[01:08] <ogra> probably josselin mouette from debian knows it too.... 
[01:09] <JaneW> heh
[01:09] <JaneW> and it's gout the window staright after the release isn;t it?
[01:09] <JaneW> s/gout/out
[01:09] <Yagisan> these patches going upstream ?
[01:11] <Yagisan> ogra: getting any sleep ?
[01:11] <JaneW> YAY
[01:11] <JaneW> she left
[01:12] <Yagisan> who ?
[01:12] <JaneW> ogra: does OSdir do the screenshots automatically?
[01:12] <JaneW> Yagisan:  JessicaX^
[01:13] <Yagisan> troublemaker ?
[01:14] <JaneW> yes
[01:16] <Yagisan> ah - google confirms it
[01:17] <Yagisan> JaneW - you're reading my old design doc ?
[01:19] <JaneW> no sorry I did open it but then rebooted, it's in my inbox, so as soon as I have cleared the other priority items I'll get to it... unfortunately it is going to take some time
[01:20] <ogra_> grmbl..
[01:20] <ogra_> did i mention how much i LOVE my provider...
[01:22] <JaneW> ogra: they still causing problems for you?
[01:23] <JaneW> ogra: must cause lots of cursing with your u/ls and d/ls !
[01:23] <ogra> they have a new reconnect process for the daily disconnect that crashes my router once a day
[01:24] <JaneW> our ADSL line drops at least once a day, it is deliberate resets at the ISP with IP cycling to prevent you from hosting on the ADSL...
[01:24] <ogra> yes, same here...
[01:25] <ogra> but some weeks ago it just reconnected silently... now they upgraded theor headends... :/
[01:25] <JaneW> seems to be around 10am and/or 10pm but they do seems to vary the times too, to keep it interesting
[01:27] <Yagisan> JaneW - the PESOE and network security was entirely done by myself. PESOE is what you would be interested in
[01:27] <ogra> its after 24h regardless when i connected...
[01:27] <Yagisan> my ADSL drops 2-3 times a day - doesn't stop me hosting
[01:27] <JaneW> PESOE?
[01:27] <Yagisan> JaneW - It's ythe heading in the pdf
[01:28] <Yagisan> be back soon - bath and dinner time for bub
[01:28] <JaneW> Yagisan: yes if you are watching it but if the IP cycles it affects DNS entries etc, and the updates take time right?
[01:32] <Yagisan> JaneW - Dynamic DNS :) + ip check in ppp0 going up - and short dns live time
[01:34] <Yagisan> JaneW - aptitude install ddns3-client
[02:17] <JaneW> ogra: edubuntu girl wallpapers http://www.torrefranca.org/art/edubuntuGirl.zip
[02:36] <ogra> great, thanks
[02:49] <JaneW> ogra: newset http://www.ossn.co.za/edubuntu/3/
[02:49] <JaneW> newest even
[02:50] <ogra> hmm...
[02:51] <ogra> i think the three buttons on the top left should be of he same size
[02:51] <ogra> but else its fine...
[02:53] <shaga> and two larger buttons has a bit rasterized rounds
[02:54] <ogra> these are not the final graphics ;)
[02:54] <shaga> okay :)
[02:55] <ogra> the circle of kids is also rasterized on the edges :)
[02:55] <shaga> I was just going to say but then you revealed hidden secret about graphics :p
[02:56] <JaneW> ogra: I gave highvoltage higher res logos and other formats etc
[02:56] <shaga> -typos(+it/+a)
[02:57] <ogra> yup
[02:58] <JaneW> how can I force my CD to eject if it doesn't want to (without rebooting)?
[02:59] <ogra> JaneW, hmm -devel ? poke pitti
[02:59] <Yagisan> JaneW - press a paperclip into the little hole
[02:59] <JaneW> lol
[02:59] <ogra> do you have anything accessing it ? 
[03:00] <ogra> JaneW, thats a but ...
[03:00] <ogra> bug
[03:00] <Yagisan> JaneW - use that as last resort
[03:00] <JaneW> eject: unable to eject, last error: Invalid argument
[03:00] <JaneW> no way the paperclip thing WORKS!
[03:01] <JaneW> I thought you were joking
[03:01] <JaneW> *GRIN*
[03:01] <Yagisan> JaneW - I was a hardware tech once
[03:01] <Yagisan> Still have my certificate IV on the wall
[03:01] <ogra> sure the papeclip works... but it wont solve the bug ;)
[03:01] <JaneW> Yagisan: thanks, saved me about 15 mins :)
[03:02] <Yagisan> JaneW - you use hoary too ?
[03:02] <JaneW> yes
[03:02] <Yagisan> ogra: that bug fixed in breezy ?
[03:02] <ogra> no idea
[03:02] <Yagisan> I go to breezy in about 1-2 hours
[03:03] <ogra> i dont work on that area
[03:03] <Yagisan> final backup then format and working lvm on raid here I come :)
[03:09] <JaneW> highvoltage: ping
[03:09] <Yagisan> ogra: when you're not whipping yourself with xss or working on edubuntu - what other parts of ubuntu are you responsible for ?
[03:10] <JaneW> highvoltage: last quibble, the white section over the logo at the top of the page, can you improve the rounding so it follows the shape of the logo better? It is a bit elongated, and it need to be rounder...
[03:10] <JaneW> Yagisan: AudioCDBurning
[03:11] <JaneW> Yagisan: MOTUs, bugs
[03:12] <JaneW> Yagisan: ExpandingUniverse, LanguageSelector, mono, GraphicalPartitioningTool...
[03:12] <JaneW> not much
[03:12] <JaneW> ;)
[03:14] <Yagisan> LanguageSelector - that would mean I should bother ogra with all my multi-language desires :)
[03:15] <ogra> LanguageSelector is mvo ;) i was only second on that one...
[03:15] <ogra> as a placholder ;)
[03:15] <ogra> place
[03:19] <Yagisan> how is multi-language support in breezy compared to hoary ?
[03:20] <ogra> a lot better, thanks to rosetta
[03:22] <Yagisan> good, I remember the pain I had getting Japanese & English going nicely
[03:22] <Yagisan> why are there so many different input types!
[03:23] <ogra> becaus its a big world ?
[03:23] <Yagisan> and I can't RTFM because I can't read enough Japanese
[03:23] <Yagisan> I see kinput2, scim, canna etc
[03:24] <ogra> mako is working on getting that solved, but i dont know how much it improved for breezy
[03:25] <ogra> btw, when did JessicaX^ leave... ididnt see her going... just recognized the low noise in here :)
[03:25] <Yagisan> about when I logged in
[03:26] <Yagisan> about 2hrs 15 minutes ago
[03:29] <Yagisan> crap she's going for my Ubuntu cd's
[03:34] <JaneW> ogra: just before I said YAY ;)
[03:34] <ogra> heh
[03:34] <JaneW> * JessicaX^ (n=Admin@86.112.144.180) has left #edubuntu
[03:34] <JaneW> Yagisan ogra: getting any sleep ?
[03:34] <JaneW> JaneW YAY
[03:34] <JaneW> JaneW she left
[03:36] <ogra> Yagisan, to answer that... i could need a nap... but want to have the remaining screensaver crap done
[03:38] <Yagisan> ogra: you do know that you can die from lack of sleep don't you ?
[03:38] <ogra> nah
[03:38] <ogra> you only get crazy from it... :)
[03:38] <ogra> blblblbl
[03:39] <JaneW> no seriously you can DIE
[03:39] <JaneW> I saw a documentary last night
[03:39] <JaneW> I mean last week
[03:39] <JaneW> Body Hits
[03:39] <magnon> pfff :P
[03:39] <JaneW> they investigated lack of sleep
[03:39] <magnon> I lived three weeks on uberman sleep
[03:39] <JaneW> you can last 3 times longer without food than without sleep
[03:39] <magnon> I survived
[03:39] <ogra> your body simply takes the sleep if it need some...
[03:39] <JaneW> after 12 days of no sleep you die
[03:39] <ogra> *needs
[03:40] <magnon> ogra: no, your brain does. That's the most important sleep too
[03:40] <ogra> thats what i meant
[03:40] <magnon> body sleep is mostly a waste of tiem
[03:40] <magnon> time*
[03:40] <magnon> which is why napping is clever
[03:41] <Yagisan> magnon: I don't know about you - but my body needs a rest
[03:41] <Yagisan> magnon: no kids yet ?
[03:41] <magnon> sure it does, but not really that much
[03:41] <JaneW> I feel CRAP after a nap
[03:41] <magnon> Yagisan: no, but I work about 24/7
[03:41] <JaneW> I like SLEEEEEP
[03:41] <magnon> JaneW: you nap too long
[03:41] <magnon> the body works in approx. 20 minute then 1h10 minute cycles
[03:41] <Yagisan> magnon: after kids - you will be exhausted
[03:42] <magnon> where 20 minutes are light sleep, brain rest, and the rest is deep sleep, which screws you up if you get up from it
[03:42] <magnon> which is why alarm clocks are a really bad idea too
[03:42] <Yagisan> magnon: and if you can bottle whatever they run on - and sell it, the $$
[03:42] <ogra> stop talking about sleep ! *yawn*
[03:44] <JaneW> magnon: me too - if I have had enough sleep
[03:44] <JaneW> magnon: and not been drinking etc
[03:44] <Yagisan> I program my kids to wake me up
[03:44] <JaneW> I programmed mine to stop :P
[03:45] <Yagisan> "Kate dad has to work late tonight - please don't wake him up"
[03:45] <magnon> JaneW: works at any time for me, drunk or not :P
[03:45] <magnon> but, I have to run
[03:45] <magnon> bye
[03:45] <JaneW> bye
[03:45] <Yagisan> 5am next day (2 hrs after getting into bed) "oh oh"
[03:45] <Yagisan> bye
[03:46] <Yagisan> if only kids had a mute switch ...
[03:48] <mpt> oy, more references to the mythical Ubuntu Manifesto
[04:16] <shaga> Yagisan: sudo apt-get install mute-kids
[04:18] <highvoltage> JaneW: yes. it was a quick hack. it will be better.
[04:26] <Zaheer> hello hello :D
[04:26] <Yagisan> shaga: it's not working
[04:26] <JaneW> highvoltage: how did you get the files on the MP3 player....?
[04:26] <shaga> then only way is to hardcode :/
[04:27] <Yagisan> shagra: she's screaming her head off because she doesn't want to go to bed
[04:27] <Zaheer> i got a question again... might not be edubuntu related (think its more ubuntu)
[04:28] <highvoltage> JaneW: it works like a usb mass storage device, you just plug it in and copy the files over
[04:28] <Yagisan> shagra: I'll try to "re-program" her - but I'd be happy if you'd port apt to the kiddy arch :)
[04:28] <Yagisan> Zaheer: shoot
[04:28] <JaneW> highvoltage: that's what I thought, but it's not working *sob*
[04:28] <shaga> dpkg-reconfigure volume might work as well ;)
[04:29] <shaga> it'd be overall volume but would work that way as well 
[04:29] <JaneW> highvoltage: I copied the files off, and then shuffled them and made chnages, and now it tells me there is not space to copy stuff on, even though it is empty
[04:29] <Yagisan> I'd like apt-get -purge attitude-problem myself
[04:29] <Zaheer> if i install edubuntu do i need to have an internet connection to install other packages?
[04:29] <Zaheer> i have all 14 debian disks can i not use those disk to install additional packages into edubuntu?
[04:29] <highvoltage> did you check if it was write protected ;)
[04:29] <highvoltage> Yagisan: please don't
[04:29] <Yagisan> Zaheer: no.
[04:30] <highvoltage> Yagisan: get aptitude, drop the attitude :)
[04:30] <Zaheer> :( so i need an internet connection
[04:30] <Yagisan> Zaheer: no you don't need internet
[04:31] <Yagisan> highvoltage - terrible twos started a few months early. She's like her mum, never listens to me 
[04:33] <vmarks> hi all.
[04:34] <vmarks> I got an install error concerning packages while installing the preview of edubuntu- any thoughts on that?
[04:34] <Zaheer> so where do i install additional packages from.. i only have the edubuntu preview cd, but i would like to install the programming packes as well..
[04:34] <vmarks> it was right after I specified which which eth interface to use for issuing dhcp
[04:35] <ogra> Zaheer, which programming packages ? 
[04:35] <Yagisan> Zaheer: run synaptic - but if you can't find what you are looking for
[04:35] <ogra> vmarks, did you regard the install notes ? 
[04:35] <ogra> (see topic)
[04:35] <Yagisan> you may need internet access - and to enable universe/multiverse
[04:36] <ogra> Zaheer, if its only compiler etc, you can install build-essential from CD, if its more you either need internet access or the (yet untested) DVD
[04:37] <Zaheer> ooh oooh where can i get the dvd from?
[04:38] <ogra> Zaheer, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/
[04:38] <ogra> it contains all of main
[04:39] <ogra> which is about 4000 packages
[04:39] <ogra> (and 1.9 GB)
[04:40] <Yagisan> ogra: - that leaves lots of room for a "best of universe" hint hint
[04:40] <ogra> Yagisan, nope
[04:40] <ogra> its not possible...
[04:40] <Zaheer> i cant get there
[04:41] <ogra> Zaheer, works here
[04:42] <Zaheer> says i cant connect... do i need to register or sumthing?
[04:42] <highvoltage> ogra: how much space would i need to mirror ubuntu and edubuntu?
[04:42] <Yagisan> ogra - not even with "transparent-compression" (Yagisan ignores any hints)
[04:42] <highvoltage> i want to arrange hosting with a local isp.
[04:42] <ogra> highvoltage, some 100GB i think
[04:42] <ogra> highvoltage, ask elmo
[04:42] <highvoltage> ok.
[04:42] <ogra> Yagisan, it has nothing to do with space...
[04:42] <ogra> if i ship it, i have to support it
[04:43] <ogra> the CDs and DVDs can only contain stuff that is in the supported set (main)
[04:44] <Yagisan> ogra - really - you mustn't have learnt anything from large commercial software vendors :-P
[04:44] <ogra> Yagisan, i cant influence that...
[04:44] <highvoltage> ogra: thanks. i asked him in -devel, i think i'll mail him anyway.
[04:44] <ogra> its a tecnical limitation
[04:44] <highvoltage> oops, gtg
[04:44] <Yagisan> so what will you do with all the free space - source ?
[04:45] <Yagisan> ogra - I think you missed my joke
[04:45] <ogra> nope ;)
[04:45] <ogra> i just wasnt typing fast enough ;)
[04:47] <vmarks> ogra: well, truly, no. but I want to use final release anyway when I go live...
[04:47] <Yagisan> ogra - seriously - fill the space with the source code - it could be studied on software engineering classes
[04:47] <Yagisan> brb - crying baby
[04:55] <ogra> vmarks, the ltsp package doesnt generate the dhcp.conf file dynamically yet... its important to use the right ip range for eth at install time (will be fixed before release)
[04:56] <ogra> vmarks, it needs to be in the 192.168.0.X range, you can change both, IP and /etc/ltsp/dchp.conf post install
[05:00] <Zaheer> have a great evening guys, bye :)
[05:14] <vmarks> if I didn't get it at install time, can I fix it after the fact?
[05:15] <vmarks> ah.
[05:15] <vmarks> duh.
[05:15] <vmarks> post install.
[05:15] <vmarks> fixing now.
[05:16] <ogra> vmarks, the preview had a bug that prevented the default IP from being put into the installer
[05:20] <vmarks> ok, so I looked at the dhcp.conf file, and I adjusted my eth1 to have a 192.168.0.1 ip (that's the one I want to distribute dhcp on...)
[05:20] <vmarks> how far wrong am I so far?
[05:21] <vmarks> my eth0 which is connected to internet works fine-
[05:21] <vmarks> I want to have client terminal machines connect to eth1
[05:22] <ogra> that should be ok...
[05:22] <vmarks> as near as I can tell it isn't running dhcp on that. and and on that eth1 interface, it's gateway should be the other eth (192.168.123.31) ?
[05:22] <ogra> try running dpkg --configure -a 
[05:23] <vmarks> now we're talking!
[05:23] <ogra> nope, the gw should be in 192.168.0.X range
[05:23] <ogra> it should be your eth1 address...
[05:24] <ogra> the clients wont see the 192.168.123.X net
[05:24] <ogra> you need to configure the server to forward from eth1 to eth0
[05:25] <ogra> there is a howto anywhere ... i think it was on the ubuntu wiki (search for ThinClient) 
[05:25] <vmarks> in final release, a wizard or some automation would be convenient for that.
[05:25] <vmarks> although it's probably too late to ask for that now
[05:26] <ogra> yup
[05:26] <ogra> we dont target a 2 NIC setup yet...
[05:26] <ogra> so the second NIC is up to you...
[05:28] <ogra> supporting two NICs would mean to have transparent proxying (+content filter) working by default and a interface for easily configuring the forwarding stuff
[05:28] <ogra> both didnt make it in time for this release... but is definately targeted for the next release
[05:29] <vmarks> okay, so what do we target- a terminal server using one nic to get both internet from a router AND distribute dhcp over that same nic?
[05:30] <vmarks> I'm trying to understand.
[05:31] <ogra> we target a terminal server for one classroom.... everything else is next release ...
[05:31] <vmarks> ouch.
[05:31] <vmarks> understood.
[05:32] <vmarks> I was so ready to go school-wide.
[05:32] <ogra> (or up to you, its easy to set up a second NIC in the UI)
[05:32] <vmarks> yeah, I set up the second nic, but the forwarding I haven't got yet.
[05:32] <ogra> no LDAP etc integration yet..
[05:33] <ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThinClientHowtoNAT
[05:33] <vmarks> ok
[05:37] <vmarks> well, that's on now..
[05:37] <vmarks> better and better.
[05:37] <vmarks> now to find a PXE machine I can boot...
[05:38] <ogra> note the bug noted on EdubuntuTesting though (any help very appreciated)
[05:44] <Yagisan> vmarks - the etherboot images at rom-o-matic can be configured with pxe support - so you don't have to look far
[06:10] <vmarks> well, no magic on netbooting- got to NFS and dumped out to terminal.
[06:11] <ogra> seen my last comment  ?
[06:11] <Yagisan> yep
[06:11] <Yagisan> reboot - and what it magically work
[06:12] <Yagisan> s/what/wacth
[06:12] <Yagisan> damm I can't type
[06:12] <Yagisan> watch
[06:12] <Yagisan> I can't work out why it does that either
[06:13] <vmarks> reboot and it didn't. but then, I'm far too impatient sometimes. I'll pick this back up tomorrow.
[06:13] <ogra> i guess because initramfs doesnt hand out the bootparms to the kernel...
[06:13] <Yagisan> vmarks - most I had was 5 reboots
[06:13] <Yagisan> when I have time - I'll trace it on the wire with ethereal
[06:14] <Yagisan> I just had a new pc arrive from ebay to start testing it with
[06:19] <vmarks> well, I had hopes this would be as easy as things are with the regular ubuntu distro. but I probably set expectations too high
[06:19] <ogra> its not released yet
[06:19] <vmarks> yes, there is that ;)
[06:19] <vmarks> I'm not whining, I promise you
[06:19] <ogra> :)
[06:20] <Yagisan> I found it just as easy as other unreleased versions - but I need a bit more flexibility for what I want to use it for
[06:21] <Yagisan> but ogra - when you get time - please let us pick whatever ip we like in install :)
[06:21] <vmarks> my overriding goal? school wide terminal serving, one nic for internet, the other for internal, dumb clients on teacher's desks and in lab for students.
[06:21] <ogra> thats my main bug to solve...
[06:21] <ogra> but as long as i'm stuck with this screensaver crap i simply cant...
[06:21] <Yagisan> vmarks - for me s/school/business
[06:22] <Yagisan> s/teachers/staff
 but I liked xss as it was ... </flamebait>
[06:24] <ogra> vmarks, its easily possible... just requires more manual work that it will in next release :)
[06:24] <ogra> *than
[06:25] <ogra> but  dont think its worse than in k12ltsp or any outher ltsp distro... (dunno how easy skole is to install though)
[06:25] <vmarks> ogra: a complete howto for that manual work would go a long way.
[06:25] <ogra> yup
[06:26] <ogra> its planned too...
[06:26] <vmarks> will that howto be around for release?
[06:26] <vmarks> I know I'm asking things that have been answered before. I'm sure of that.
[06:27] <ogra> we have the tuxlabs cookbook that explains everything... it just needs some adjustment... i think it will be there shortly after release
[06:40] <Yagisan> night all
[07:29] <siretart> hi
[07:31] <ogra> hey siretart 
[07:51] <siretart> ogra: We just tested ltsp in edubuntu. works fine :)
[07:51] <ogra> yay :)
[07:51] <siretart> ogra: say, where is the teachers pet?
[07:51] <ogra> nonexistent yet
[07:51] <siretart> oh
[07:51] <siretart> ok
[07:52] <ogra> i planned to do it during these weeks... but now i have to rewrite xscreensaver... sabdfl request *shrug*
[07:52] <siretart> :(
[07:59] <siretart> hi silvester :)
[07:59] <silvester> hi
[07:59] <siretart> ogra: may I introduce you silvester,
[08:00] <siretart> ogra: she is the one doing the 'zulassungsarbeit' about/with edubuntu
[08:00] <ogra> hi silvester :)
[08:00] <silvester> hi ogra :)
[08:09] <siretart> say, is there a possibility to make a 'default' user, which gets his home restore between logins?
[08:09] <siretart> I think of a contaminated environment for a pupil account
[08:09] <ogra> i wanted to use sabayon for that....
[08:09] <siretart> s/restore/restored/
[08:09] <siretart> sabayon?
[08:10] <ogra> but it doesnt work through X tunnels :(
[08:10] <siretart> :(
[08:10] <ogra> yes, you can make user profiles and can reset to them...
[08:10] <siretart> with sabayon or with another tool?
[08:10] <ogra> you can user it on the server directly though
[08:10] <ogra> with sabayon...
[08:10] <siretart> ah
[08:10] <ogra> its the gnome variant of kiosk mode
[08:11] <siretart> but sabayon does not work with ltsp clients, right?
[08:11] <ogra> the point is that it starts xnest with DISPLAY=:1.0 that doesnt work through a tunnel
[08:11] <ogra> since :1.0 isnt tunneled
[08:12] <siretart> hm
[08:12] <ogra> so it can only workj on the servers desktop directly
[08:12] <Burgundavia> ogra, rewrite xscreensaver?
[08:12] <siretart> ok. I think I have to dive in further how the ntsp setup really works
[08:12] <ogra> Burgundavia, the lock screen
[08:12] <Burgundavia> ogra, ah, fun
[08:13] <Burgundavia> ogra, we talking for breezy?
[08:13] <ogra> siretart, ssh -X $(server) x-session-manager ;) thats all
[08:13] <ogra> Burgundavia, yes :/
[08:13] <siretart> over here, at the chummers internet cafe, we use a different approach
[08:13] <ogra> Burgundavia, it steals my time...
[08:14] <siretart> we have a shellscript, which rm -rf the users home completly and restores that from a tarball
[08:14] <ogra> siretart, but thats the future of ltsp... ;) 
[08:14] <siretart> just before login
[08:14] <ogra> you ca do that indeed ... just call it in /etc/X11/Xsession ;)
[08:14] <siretart> excactly this is what we are doing over here
[08:15] <siretart> ogra: how about calling xnest with DISPLAY=ltspserver:1.0?
[08:15] <ogra> nope
[08:15] <siretart> some fiddling with x authority would be needed tough
[08:15] <ogra> ssh remaps DISPLAY
[08:16] <siretart> sure
[08:16] <siretart> this is a bit a security insanity, what I propose. I know. but it would be a quick hack ;)
[08:17] <ogra> just use the script you use currently and run it from Xsession...
[08:17] <ogra> or from the users .xsession 
[08:19] <siretart> ogra: in this cafe, we don't have a ltsp setting, but a d-i/cfengine setup with workstations
[08:19] <ogra> siretart, yes but that would work :)
[08:19] <siretart> ogra: that 'default' account is only local on the machine. what is, when different ppl login with the same login? that would kill file from the live session
[08:20] <siretart> so a unique account for each machine would be needed
[08:20] <ogra> yes
[08:20] <ogra> not for each machine, but for each user
[08:20] <siretart> we are using it here for 'laufkundschaft'
[08:21] <siretart> I don't think it is really feasible to give each pupil an unique account
[08:22] <siretart> perhaps we can do at UBZ a plan for that
[08:27] <ogra> sorry, i'm chatting in 7 windows, pbuild 2 screensaver and care for 5 animals here... a bit slow...
[08:28] <ogra> siretart, thats planned... i'll upload my BOF list for edubuntu the next days
[08:29] <ogra> target for dapper/edubuntu is to have centralized user management for a whole school, menu setups for different profiles clustering of servers and clients by default etc
[08:29] <ogra> there is a lot planned
[09:16] <ogra> pere_gone, really gone ? 
[09:41] <Burgundavia> ogra, you going to be paid full time for all this work?
[09:42] <ogra> Burgundavia, i *am* paied fulltime for my work for canonical.... this is one of my tasks
[09:43] <ogra> but there is plenty of other stuff for ubuntu i do...
[09:44] <Burgundavia> indeed, I felt bad about abusing mjg59, because I learned his is not getting paid to do what he does
[09:45] <ogra> i'm sure he could if he would want
[09:45] <Burgundavia> I expect him to get snatched up when he finished school
[09:45] <ogra> probably...
[09:46] <Burgundavia> where the hwdb going? is more work planned for dapper on it?
[09:47] <ogra> yup...
[09:47] <ogra> i hadnt time in breezy to do anything...
[09:49] <Burgundavia> 110000!!!
[09:50] <ogra> yup
[09:50] <ogra> and the server still lives :)
[09:50] <Burgundavia> are you still storing in flat files?
[09:50] <ogra> yup in one dir
[09:51] <Burgundavia> that is mad
[09:51] <ogra> thats why i had to disable half of the services ...
[09:51] <ogra> bunzipping on the fly if 100 people access it simultaneously doesnt work
[09:51] <ogra> at least not with a PII 233
[09:52] <ogra> it'll move to the DC after release
[09:52] <ogra> then i'll have more time i hope...
[09:53] <ogra> oh, i thought you already have a new job
[09:53] <Burgundavia> yes, but it pays minimum wage and doesn't involve computers
[09:53] <ogra> bad
[09:54] <Burgundavia> http://userful.com/ <--  basically asked me to come work for them
[09:59] <ogra> bah, flash
[09:59] <Burgundavia> and non-fre
[09:59] <ogra> they also have a linux based product... 
[09:59] <ogra> so thats ltsp ? 
[09:59] <Burgundavia> they only linux stuff
[10:00] <Burgundavia> not ltsp, mulitseat
[10:00] <ogra> ah
[10:00] <Burgundavia> they do seriously cool things
[10:00] <ogra> we too :)
[10:00] <Burgundavia> indeed
[10:00] <ogra> but with less HW costs :)
[10:01] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:01] <Burgundavia> but they are getting the linux desktop in the developed world
[10:02] <ogra> heh, we too (if i finish this release)
[10:03] <Burgundavia> they are currently based on FC4 (ick)
[10:03] <Burgundavia> I have been pushing hard for Ubuntu
[10:03] <JessicaX^> Heey linescanner!
[10:04] <linescanner> hey you well
[10:04] <ogra> Burgundavia, but ?
[10:04] <JessicaX^> hm?
[10:04] <Burgundavia> ogra, they haven't made a decision yet
[10:04] <Burgundavia> they are also looking at opensuse
[10:04] <ogra> bah
[10:04] <Burgundavia> my thoughts exactly
[10:05] <Burgundavia> I see clear roadmap for opensuse
[10:05] <JessicaX^> Who is this?
[10:05] <ogra> do they want upgradeability ? 
[10:05] <Burgundavia> I see no, that is
[10:05] <Burgundavia> JessicaX^, userful.com, a company that might hire me
[10:05] <linescanner> JessicaX My priv is broken again
[10:05] <JessicaX^> Ahh, lol
[10:05] <linescanner> trying now to fix :)
[10:06] <JessicaX^> Hmm, I thought you were comparing SuSe to Ubuntu
[10:06] <JessicaX^> I was going to say - Suse is a teeeeeny bit bigger
[10:06] <ogra> JessicaX^, SuSE isnt upgradeable over 2 releases
[10:06] <JessicaX^> I didnt even say that
[10:07] <ogra> you have to reinstall
[10:07] <JessicaX^> I meant in terms of financial backing, office size, net gross
[10:07] <ogra> thats our bigges advantage :)
[10:07] <linescanner> Ogra it is if you keep your fingers crossed :)
[10:07] <linescanner> and toes :)
[10:07] <Burgundavia> ogra, nor is FC
[10:07] <ogra> hmm, i'm not sure if our financial backing is bigger :)
[10:08] <JessicaX^> rofl, i am
[10:08] <JessicaX^> Show me the payslips compared to suse
[10:08] <ogra> iirc SuSE was sold for 200 millon to novell... thast not much
[10:09] <JessicaX^> Ahaha
[10:09] <JessicaX^> And you've got more than 200 million?
[10:09] <ogra> and sabdfl surely has more...
[10:09] <ogra> even if he wouldnt push all his money into ubuntu
[10:09] <JessicaX^> I asked you a question
[10:10] <JessicaX^> do you have more than 200 million dollars
[10:10] <JessicaX^> Yes/No
[10:10] <Burgundavia> ogra, sabdfl makes more in a good day than novell/rh combined do
[10:10] <ogra> me ? nope, i'm only a poor empoyee
[10:10] <JessicaX^> ogra: hmm, i'm not sure if our financial backing is bigger
[10:10] <ogra> Burgundavia, yup
[10:10] <JessicaX^> Wierd
[10:10] <JessicaX^> 200 million as opposed to.. Paypal donations
[10:10] <JessicaX^> hmmmmm
[10:10] <JessicaX^> tough call
[10:10] <ogra> huh ? 
[10:11] <ogra> JessicaX^, you know who funds and founded ubuntu, yes ? 
[10:11] <JessicaX^> Nope o.O
[10:11] <JessicaX^> bill gates? :O
[10:11] <crimsun> google mark shuttleworth. 'nuff said.
[10:11] <ogra> pfft
[10:11] <JessicaX^> :P
[10:22] <JessicaX^> price of fruit nowadays ;)